What does it mean to be a credible witness to Christ in a world marked by racism, silence, and historical amnesia? In this profound and emotionally gripping conversation, historian and advocate Dr. Jemar Tisby joins host Nikki Toyama-Szeto to explore the intersection of faith, race, and historical memory.

From the haunting beauty of the Mississippi Delta’s cotton fields to the riverbank where Emmett Till's body was found, Tisby shows how place carries history—and how Christians are called to remember truthfully. He challenges a truncated vision of racial reconciliation and calls for courageous, justice-oriented discipleship rooted in history and community.

Tisby shares his personal journey through white evangelicalism, the Black church tradition, and a deeper encounter with Jesus that sustains his work. This episode is a call to courageous presence, anti-racist action, and radical hospitality. It’s a vision for church not just as a place of belonging, but of bold and truthful healing.

Racism persists not because of extremists—but because of the people who tolerate it.

1. “The most egregious acts of racism happen within a context of compromise.”
2. “There is no era where America was great in that sense that we can go back to.”
3. “We don't have a how-to problem. We have a want-to problem.”
4. “Racism persists not because of extremists—but because of the people who tolerate it.”
5. “To the extent I ever felt not welcomed, accepted, or had a place—it was because of race.”

Jemar Tisby is the author of The Color of Compromise and How to Fight Racism, and founder of The Witness: A Black Christian Collective. He is the host of Pass the Mic.

Nikki Toyama-Szeto is the host of Credible Witness, and is executive director of Christians for Social Action, equipping the church to pursue justice and follow Jesus in the tension of our times.

Listen to Jemar, Nikki, and Mark Labberton in the Introduction episode of Credible Witness, "Staying with Jesus When the Church’s Credibility Is at Stake."

• Growing up in the Midwest and discovering the importance of place in the South
• “The Delta is the most Southern place on earth.”
• Seeing cotton fields in bloom: beauty and horror intertwined
• Visiting the site where Emmett Till’s body was found
• “There’s a spirit haunting these places.”
• Encountering Fannie Lou Hamer and the transformative power of Black history
• “History has a weight to it because truth has a weight to it.”
• Writing The Color of Compromise out of deep anger and discovery
• The role of Christian compromise in sustaining racism
• “The most egregious acts of racism happen within a context of compromise.”
• The shallow vision of racial reconciliation in white evangelicalism
• “We don’t talk about race. That’s how race showed up.”
• Disillusionment with multiethnic churches and the post-Obama backlash
• The shift from reconciliation to racial justice as “what is owed”
• The ARC framework: Awareness, Relationships, Commitment
• Inspiration from the Black church tradition and the nearness of Jesus
• “Be strong and courageous—for I will be with you wherever you go.”

Jemar Tisby says: “We don't have a how-to problem, we have a want-to problem. That's it. Because I tell people all the time, listen, if I gave you five minutes, you could come up with a list of a dozen things, really helpful things that we could do to fight racism and create more equity. That's not the issue of how. How to is not the issue. The issue is: Will you do that? Are you willing to do that? Are you willing to make the sacrifices, to confront your fear and push through it, to risk losing community, straining relationships, changing jobs, losing money—all of that stuff that goes with the work of justice?”

Credible Witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative. Produced and edited by Mark Labberton, Sarey Martin Concepcion and Evan Rosa. Hosted by Nikki Toyama-Szeto.

Special thanks to Fuller Theological Seminary, Christians for Social Action, and to Brenda Salter McNeill, whose book inspired the title of the show.

For more information, visit CredibleWitness.us.