I describe Kelly Brogan as a “renegade psychiatrist” – someone who abandoned a prestigious career “in the system” to become a critic of pharmaceutical psychiatry and an advocate for holistic therapy. She is also a dear friend and ally whom I appreciate for her courage, creativity, and intellect. We covered a lot of ground in this conversation, medical, philosophical, and spiritual. Some of the main themes were: ending the war on pain, reclaiming personal sovereignty in physical and mental health, the power of “I don’t know,” and the passage to authentic personal and cultural adulthood. We also discuss her powerful new book, Own Your Self (https://amzn.to/32XjBpF).