Kinsella On Liberty

Kinsella on Liberty Podcast: Episode 494.

This is my interview by Alex Buxeda of at Schweizer Monat [Swiss Monthly; linktree]; recorded June 22, 2026. Youtube shownotes:

Stephan Kinsella, patent attorney, legal theorist, and one of the leading critics of intellectual property sits with Alex Buxeda to explore whether ideas can be owned. Starting from first principles, they discuss why Kinsella argues that patents and copyrights are incompatible with property rights, the role of scarcity in economics, innovation without intellectual property, pharmaceutical patents, entrepreneurship, pricing, and the philosophical foundations of ownership.

Grok summary: We discussed why intellectual property is fundamentally incompatible with genuine property rights. Stephan Kinsella argued that patents and copyrights are not legitimate property but state-granted monopolies that violate real ownership of scarce, physical resources. He explained that ideas and knowledge are non-scarce and non-rivalrous — one person’s use does not prevent another’s — so enforcing IP requires aggression against others’ tangible property. We explored the flaws in common justifications for patents (especially in pharmaceuticals), the arbitrary nature of IP law, the myth that “creation” grants ownership, and how free competition and open knowledge flows drive far more innovation than government-protected monopolies. Kinsella also addressed the ethics of piracy, the distorting effects of the FDA and tariffs, and why emerging technologies like 3D printing and AI will increasingly undermine IP systems.

https://youtu.be/Q4SD8pmpv1U?si=gtx2KN2CcsAbIl5s

Related links/publications (Grok assist)

For further discussion of the issues raised in this conversation, see the following resources by Stephan Kinsella, grouped by topic:

Core Case Against IP & Property Rights Fundamentals

Against Intellectual Property (2001/2008) — Kinsella’s foundational monograph making the case that patents and copyrights are incompatible with libertarian property rights based on scarcity and homesteading.

The Problem with Intellectual Property (2025) — A comprehensive recent paper arguing that IP rights are unjust state-granted monopolies that violate legitimate property rights in scarce resources.

Against Intellectual Property After Twenty Years: Looking Back and Looking Forward (2022) — Updated reflections on the original arguments, addressing common objections and developments since 2001.

Intellectual Property Rights as Negative Servitudes (2011) — Argues that IP functions as non-consensual negative servitudes on others’ physical property, violating true property rights.

Another Way to Explain the Problem with IP: Resources v. Knowledge; Ownership v. Possession (2017) — Clear distinction between scarce resources (subject to ownership) and non-scarce knowledge/ideas.

The Prior-Later Distinction (2026) — Clarifies the foundational role of first-use (prior appropriation) in property rights theory.

Structural Unity of Real and Intellectual Property? (2025) — Examines (and rejects) attempts to unify real and intellectual property conceptually.

Scarcity, Ideas, Labor Theory & Creationism Critiques

Ideas are Free: The Case Against Intellectual Property (2010) — Explains why ideas and knowledge are non-scarce and why libertarians were mistaken in supporting IP.

Libertarian Lockean Creationism (2025) — Critique of the mistaken “creation” theory of property rights often used to defend IP.

Locke’s Big Mistake: How the Labor Theory of Property Ruined Political Theory

Locke’s Big Mistake (Transcript) (2013)

Hume on Intellectual Property and the Problematic Labor Metaphor (2011)

On the Danger of Metaphors in Scientific Discourse (2011)

Objectivist Law Prof Mossoff on Copyright; or, the Misuse of Labor, Value, and Creation Metaphors (2008)

How We Come to Own Ourselves (2006) — Explains self-ownership and original appropriation, central to why IP conflicts with libertarian property theory.

Superabundant Bananas & Property Rights as Normative Support for Possession (2025) — Further clarification on scarcity, superabundance, and the nature of property rights.

Pharmaceuticals, FDA & Market Distortions

Patents and Pharmaceuticals (2023)

Are Patents Needed to Make Up for FDA Kneecapping? (2011)

FDA and Patent Reform: A Modest Proposal (2023)

Milton Friedman on the Distorting Effect of Patents (2011)

Drug Reimportation (2009) — Discussion of reimportation, free trade, and how patents distort pharmaceutical pricing.

Tabarrok: Patent Policy on the Back of a Napkin (2012) — Critique of simplistic patent policy arguments.

KOL469 | Tabarrok on Patents, Price Controls, and Drug Reimportation

Practical & Reform Topics

Do Business Without Intellectual Property (2014)

How to Improve Patent, Copyright, and Trademark Law (2011)

The American Invents Act and Patent Reform (2011)

IP Law and Market Failure (2022)

Intellectual Nonsense: Fallacious Arguments for IP (2012/2021) — Critique of common fallacious pro-IP arguments.

Copyright Absurdities & Other Examples

Libraries Prepare to Burn Foreign Books, Courtesy Copyright Law (2011) — Striking example of the absurd real-world effects of copyright enforcement.

Historical Libertarian & Objectivist Views on IP

Rothbard and the Galambosians (2005) — Discussion of extreme pro-IP views within libertarian circles and Rothbard’s perspective.

The Galambosians Strike Back (2015)

Around This Time I Met the Galambosian (2013)

Rand Chose IP: Death Over Life (2025) — Critique of Ayn Rand’s strong support for IP.

IP: The Objectivists Strike Back (2009) — Response to Objectivist defenses of IP.

Why Objectivists Hate Anarchy (2009) — Broader context on Objectivist-libertarian tensions, including IP.

Purpose of Law, Schizophrenic State & Broader Theory

The Purpose of Law: Justice and Property Rights (2026)

The Schizophrenic State (2006) — Classic piece on the contradictory nature of state actions regarding monopolies and competition.

Foundational Libertarian Theory

Legal Foundations of a Free Society (2023)

Disentangling Legal and Economic Concepts (2025)

The Title-Transfer Theory of Contract (2024)

A Libertarian Theory of Contract (2003)

What Libertarianism Is (2009)

Recent Audio/Lectures

KOL489 | The Problem with Intellectual Property (Audio) (2026)

KOL483 | The Economics and Ethics of Intellectual Property (2026)

KOL491 | Trying to Persuade Paul Cwik of the Case Against IP

KOL253 | Berkeley Fed Soc: Libertarian’s Case Against IP

KOL469 | Tabarrok on Patents, Price Controls, and Drug Reimportation

These resources expand on the core themes of scarcity versus ideas, negative servitudes, pharmaceutical patent issues, market distortions, FDA interactions, practical business strategies, Locke’s labor theory mistakes, contract theory, self-ownership, metaphors in discourse, Objectivist views on IP, the purpose of law, and libertarian first principles discussed in the interview.

Shownotes (Grok)

Podcast Shownotes

Episode Title: Stephan Kinsella: Why Intellectual Property is Incompatible with Property Rights

Guest: Stephan Kinsella (retired patent attorney & libertarian legal theorist)

Host: Alex Buxeda

Episode Summary

Stephan Kinsella delivers a rigorous, first-principles critique of patents and copyright. He argues that IP is not property at all, but a government-granted monopoly that violates genuine property rights in scarce resources. Drawing on Austrian economics and libertarian ethics, he explains why ideas are non-scarce, why IP slows innovation, and why free markets and competition are superior engines of progress. A clear, uncompromising defense of abolishing intellectual property.

Total Runtime: ~1 hour 22 minutes

Key Topics & Timestamps

0:00 – Introduction and Practical Market Realities

Kinsella begins by noting that entrepreneurs can use strategies like loss leaders and price discrimination, but cartels and monopolies are hard to sustain due to competition and cheating — setting the stage for his deeper critique of state-enforced monopolies like IP.

1:00 – Kinsella’s Journey from Pro-IP to Abolitionist

As a former patent attorney and lifelong libertarian, Kinsella originally accepted Ayn Rand’s defense of IP. After deep study while practicing patent law, he concluded that IP is literally unjustifiable and incompatible with property rights. This realization forced him to refine his understanding of libertarian property theory, relying more heavily on Mises, Rothbard, and Hoppe.

4:22 – Core Argument: Scarcity, Property Rights, and Why Ideas Are Not Property

Property rights exist solely to resolve conflicts over scarce, rivalrous resources. Ideas and knowledge are non-scarce — one person’s use does not prevent another’s simultaneous use. Granting IP rights therefore requires using force against others’ legitimate physical property (factories, printers, materials), creating artificial conflict rather than resolving it. IP is not ownership of information; it is a negative servitude on real property.

14:55 – The Pharmaceutical Patent Defense and Why It Fails

Kinsella directly refutes the claim that expensive R&D requires patents. High drug costs stem primarily from FDA regulation, not invention. Patents create monopoly pricing and slow knowledge diffusion, which is the true source of long-term progress. He criticizes utilitarian “market failure” arguments, arbitrary patent terms, and the state’s schizophrenic approach (granting monopolies via patents while attacking monopolies via antitrust). Free markets naturally reward first movers with temporary profits before competition drives prices down.

31:45 – Arbitrariness of IP and the Myth of “Creation” as a Source of Rights

Patent and copyright durations are completely arbitrary....

Kinsella on Liberty Podcast: Episode 493.

This is my talk "Rothbard’s Greatest Hits: A Personal Mix Tape," delivered at “100 Years with Rothbard,” Porto, Portugal, June 27, 2026  (iPhone audio).

https://youtu.be/1hNkL_a3Pcc?si=hzYou5BvUTpZvenl

This was a simply wonderful event. As noted here, 100 Years with Rothbard was held yesterday in beautiful Porto, Portugal (June 27, 2026), sponsored by several Portuguese libertarian groups: Mises Portugal, Catalaxia, Don’t Trust Verify (bitcoin podcast), ZugaTV (libertarian podcast), and Golpe de Estado Podcast (ancap podcasters). It featured and was attended by a number of Property and Freedom Society (PFS) members, including myself, Hans Hoppe and Gülçin Imre Hoppe, Saifedean Ammous, Thomas Jacob, Gregory and Joy Morin, and Alessandro and Domitia Fusillo. Hoppe, and Ammous and I spoke at the conference along with others. It was a wonderful event, attended by hundreds from Portugal and many other countries.

In addition to the speeches, the cloth print version of Rothbard at 100: A Tribute and Assessment was presented and released yesterday, as was its Brazilian Portuguese translation, 100 Anos de Rothbard: Uma Homenagem e Apreciação, as well as Fundamentos Legais de uma Sociedade Livre, the European Portuguese translation of my book Legal Foundations of a Free Society (Houston, Texas: Papinian Press, 2023).

A full report of the conference will be published presently. In the meantime, for an outside commentary see Rothbard 100, in Porto: A Misunderstood Genius in a Room of People Who Understood.

Related

100 Years with Rothbard

Rothbard 100, in Porto: A Misunderstood Genius in a Room of People Who Understood

Rothbard at 100: First Hardcopies Printed

A few pictures and tweets below, and my speaking notes.

Photos

Rothbard at 100 Porto June 2026 - Manuel Ogando, the organizer

Rothbard at 100 Porto June 2026 - Kinsella on Stage

Rothbard at 100 Porto June 2026 Rothbard chocolates

Tweets

I stole your photo. Apologies for not mentioning you, I arrived late https://t.co/vAMa9BkNVq

— beegarc. (@beegarc_) June 28, 2026

The Rothbard 100 conference in Porto was an amazing success

With H. H. Hoppe, @NSKinsella, @saifedean and many others

Congrats and many thanks to the organizers, especially @mcaogando https://t.co/3iCBFcp2e1 pic.twitter.com/LV58GtDSt7

— Yorick de Mombynes (@ydemombynes) June 28, 2026

FYMNR! pic.twitter.com/8X72NbRJwZ

— Stephan Kinsella (@NSKinsella) June 27, 2026

Terminou o evento https://t.co/vcORQSJOpN

O melhor e mais memorável evento que participei e vejo que é opinião também de muitos dos palestrantes.

O libertarianismo português lembra muito o brasileiro pre-covid.

A oportunidade que eles têm nas mãos é gigantesca e o conteúdo…

— Fhoer 🧉 (@Fhoer_here) June 27, 2026

Listening to the greats, Hans-Hermann Hoppe and @NSKinsella, at the Rothbard at 100 conference in Porto. pic.twitter.com/OcL1z4Tv9M

— Saifedean Ammous (@saifedean) June 27, 2026

A palestra do Kinsella no evento deixa algo muito claro: Não se levem tanto a sério, ao menos não o tempo todo

O aprendizado ficar mais palatável, leve e até mesmo cativante.

O Rothbard dos livros, artigos e teses era o mesmo das piadas, peças e memes.

Se você não conseguir… pic.twitter.com/y48MqYkduT

— Fhoer 🧉 (@Fhoer_here) June 28, 2026

Podcast with @R38TAO, so to speak https://t.co/ERtwAtMIp0

— Hans-Hermann Hoppe (@HoppeQuotes) June 28, 2026

A palestra do Kinsella no evento deixa algo muito claro: Não se levem tanto a sério, ao menos não o tempo todo

O aprendizado ficar mais palatável, leve e até mesmo cativante.

O Rothbard dos livros, artigos e teses era o mesmo das piadas, peças e memes.

Se você não conseguir… pic.twitter.com/y48MqYkduT

— Fhoer 🧉 (@Fhoer_here) June 28, 2026

Happy 100th birthday Murray Rothbard, so to speak!

With @NSKinsella in Porto 🇵🇹https://t.co/koamzNCSzJ pic.twitter.com/lP89ikB9Eb

— Hans-Hermann Hoppe (@HoppeQuotes) June 28, 2026

Os memes que plantamos 8 anos atrás renderam frutos, juros e dividendos. pic.twitter.com/rVWOAZlFlg

— Fhoer 🧉 (@Fhoer_here) June 27, 2026

FYMNR! pic.twitter.com/8X72NbRJwZ

— Stephan Kinsella (@NSKinsella) June 27, 2026

In Porto 🇵🇹, so to speak pic.twitter.com/dxDa0SGeVK

— Hans-Hermann Hoppe (@HoppeQuotes) June 27, 2026

 

Grok Notes from my Shownotes

Rothbard’s Greatest Hits: A Personal Mix Tape

Recorded live at the Rothbard at 100 conference

Porto, Portugal • June 27, 2026

Presented by Stephan Kinsella

Property and Freedom Society • C4SIF.org

In this entertaining and insightful talk, Stephan Kinsella delivers his personal “greatest hits” selection from Murray Rothbard’s enormous body of work — the ideas, arguments, and even the funniest moments that have influenced him most over the decades.

Show Notes & Key Points

Libertarianism and Rothbard

Kinsella has been a libertarian since high school (age ~15) — about 45 years.

He became a Rothbard fan just a couple of years later, as soon as he started reading him.

He has been an intellectual property attorney for ~33 years (since 1993) and has been opposed to IP for the same length of time.

Rothbard’s Greatest Hits – A Personal Mix Tape

In his chapter in the new book Rothbard at 100: A Tribute and Assessment (edited by Stephan Kinsella and Hans-Hermann Hoppe), Kinsella highlights Rothbard’s most important and interesting insights.

He compares the talk to making a “Rothbard greatest hits” mix tape — the kind he used to make for girlfriends — or even a mix containing only the guitar solos from his favorite band, Rush (another passion he’s had since age 15).

Others’ Favorite Rothbard Works

Rothbard was incredibly prolific. Here are some of his most popular and influential works mentioned:

Man, Economy, and State

Power and Market

For a New Liberty

The Ethics of Liberty

Conceived in Liberty (multi-volume)

America’s Great Depression

What Has Government Done to Our Money?

An Austrian Perspective on the History of Economic Thought

The Betrayal of the American Right

Anatomy of the State

The Progressive Era

“War Guilt in the Middle East”

Highly recommended collections:

The Free Market Reader

The Irrepressible Rothbard (2000)

Making Economic Sense (1996)

Economic Controversies (2011)

One of the best pieces ever written about Rothbard is Hans-Hermann Hoppe’s introduction to the 1998 edition of The Ethics of Liberty.

Kinsella’s Personal Favorites

These are the ideas and writings Kinsella has found most useful, interesting, or clever:

The Dog That Did Not Bark (Rothbard on IP)

At a 1988 panel discussion on ethics with Rothbard, Hoppe, and others, someone asked Hoppe whether personal sovereignty extends to knowledge and ideas.

Hoppe’s answer: “In order to have a thought you must have property rights over your body. That doesn’t imply that you own your thoughts. The thoughts can be used by anybody who is capable of understanding them.”

Rothbard remained silent. Hoppe later said he believes Rothbard was “almost there” and would have adopted the full anti-IP position had he lived longer.

Contract Theory – Title-Transfer Theory

One of Rothbard’s most important contributions (developed with Williamson Evers) is the title-transfer theory of contract. Rothbard suggested the idea, Evers wrote it up, and Rothbard later used it in The Ethics of Liberty.

This theory finally makes coherent sense of contract law as an extension of property rights rather than a separate mystical category.

Utility and Welfare Economics

In “Toward a Reconstruction of Utility and Welfare Economics” (in Economic Controversies), Rothbard emphasized that value is not a measurable, cardinal quantity that can be interpersonally compared — a point also stressed by Mises.

Taxonomy of State Intervention

In Power and Market, Rothbard systematically classifies state interventions as:

Autistic

Binary (e.g., taxation)

Triangular (e.g., antitrust, licensing, and intellectual property)

Kinsella notes that IP is a classic triangular intervention — a nonconsensual negative servitude that lets the IP holder control other people’s property.

The Funny Rothbard

Rothbard had a sharp wit. Some highlights Kinsella loves:

“Mozart Was a Red” — a hilarious play mocking “dimwit and serioso” Randians.

“Hoppephobia” (Liberty magazine, March 1990) — Rothbard’s response to a critical review of Hoppe’s book. Classic line: Hoppe’s work has the “remarkable capacity to send some readers up the wall, blood pressure soaring, muttering and chewing the carpet.”

The Galambos story: A Galambosian author who believed in perpetual IP sent Rothbard a $100 check for using his ideas. Rothbard returned it, saying that if the author really believed in owning ideas, he owed all his royalties, not just $100.

Critiques of Nozick and Georgism

Rothbard’s devastating critique of Robert Nozick’s argument for the minimal state in “Robert Nozick and the Immaculate Conception of the State.”

Complete demolition of Georgism in “The Single Tax: Economic and Moral Implications” and the reply to Georgist criticisms. (Kinsella adds: “Egads, I hate Georgism.”)

Method

Next to The Ethics of Liberty, Kinsella finds Rothbard’s essays in Economic Controversies (especially Part One: Method) among the most useful. He compares them to the first 100 pages of Mises’ Human Action on methodology.

Resources & Further Reading

Book: Rothbard at 100: A Tribute and Assessment — Available at PropertyAndFreedom.org

Kinsella’s chapter & related article: Read here

IP as Negative Servitudes: C4SIF.org article

Stephan Kinsella’s site: StephanKinsella.com

C4SIF: C4SIF.org

Property and Freedom Society: PropertyAndFreedom.org

Kinsella Slide Shownotes

From powerpoint:

Stephan Kinsella

...

Kinsella on Liberty Podcast: Episode 492.

https://youtu.be/wORPhS6dTv4?si=m01gSOxqjHJ3vDEW

This is my interview by Matthew Geiger of the Carl Menger Institute for Menger Institute Podcast #6 (recorded June 11, 2026). Shownotes and transcript below.

Related tweet:

at 13:20, defending the late Millennials and early Gen Z against snide criticisms of their plight--living with their parents, working at Starbucks, playing video games, not having kids, and so on--by the older generations who did this to them. Inflation, shitty schools, the debt…

— Stephan Kinsella (@NSKinsella) June 14, 2026

Related links

TBD

Shownotes (Grok)

Podcast Show Notes

Episode Title: Stephan Kinsella: From Patent Attorney to Anarcho-Libertarian Theorist – Property Rights, IP, Bitcoin, and the Future of Liberty

Guest: Stephan Kinsella – Retired patent attorney, prolific libertarian writer, anarcho-libertarian legal theorist, and key figure associated with the Mises Institute and Property and Freedom Society.

Episode Summary:

Matthew Geiger sits down with Stephan Kinsella for a deep, wide-ranging conversation covering Kinsella’s personal journey into libertarianism, the philosophical foundations of libertarian thought, the critical importance of property rights, the case against intellectual property, generational challenges, technological disruption, foreign policy critiques, and an optimistic long-term vision for human freedom.

Topics & Timestamps

Introduction

0:00

Matthew Geiger welcomes listeners to the Menger Institute podcast and introduces Stephan Kinsella as a retired patent attorney and libertarian writer. Kinsella expresses his excitement about the conversation.

How Stephan Kinsella Discovered Libertarianism

0:19

Matthew Geiger asks Kinsella to share his personal story, including his work with Murray Rothbard and Hans-Hermann Hoppe. Kinsella recounts growing up in a conservative Louisiana household with little political or economic knowledge. A librarian gave him The Fountainhead in high school, sparking his interest in philosophy, individualism, and free-market economics. He read voraciously, quickly became a libertarian, then an Austrian, and eventually an anarchist during college and law school. He practiced oil & gas, international, and eventually patent law for 30 years while pursuing libertarian theory as an avocation, attending Mises Institute events since 1995.

Libertarian vs. Anarchist: Definitions and Preferences

2:17

Matthew Geiger asks about the distinction between calling oneself a libertarian versus an anarchist. Kinsella explains different axes of libertarianism (activism vs. theory vs. personal conduct) and argues that libertarianism is a consistent extension of classical liberalism centered on self-ownership and Lockean property rights. He details why the Non-Aggression Principle (NAP) is actually a shorthand for a deeper cluster of property rules — homesteading, contract, and rectification — rather than a standalone axiom. He makes the case that the most consistent libertarians are anarchists, while minarchists are libertarians with an asterisk, and classical liberals are close intellectual cousins but not true libertarians.

Matthew Geiger on Labels and Consistency

10:19

Matthew Geiger shares his own thoughts on the dilution of the term “libertarian” and his preference for “anarchist.” He discusses taking the label back from the left and echoes Hoppe’s view that the state is always socialist. Geiger and Kinsella agree that the most principled position is anarcho-libertarianism (or Austro-libertarianism), which recognizes the natural emergence of hierarchy, authority, norms, and social consequences in a free society — things many modern libertarians mistakenly reject.

Younger Generations, Cultural Shifts, and Advice

13:23

Matthew Geiger asks about cultural and political trends among younger generations, referencing Javier Milei’s popularity, and requests advice for them. Kinsella sympathizes with Gen Z and Millennials, blaming previous generations for poor education, inflation, debt, and making normal life unaffordable. He advises libertarians to adopt a long-term perspective, read Albert Jay Nock’s Isaiah’s Job, focus on being part of the “remnant,” maintain balance in life (career, finances, family), and avoid burning out on short-term activism. He also reflects on how the libertarian movement has grown larger, more international, and more radical since the 2008 Ron Paul campaign, though newer adherents tend to be less well-read.

Optimism About Technology, Fragmentation, and the Future

21:40

Matthew Geiger expresses optimism about technology, the internet, AI, and the erosion of state monopolies on force and information. Kinsella shares a cautious but ultimately hopeful outlook. He discusses the benefits of media fragmentation (less centralized propaganda), the logic of Bitcoin succeeding on its own merits rather than activism, and why liberty, if achieved, will be because it is natural and inevitable. He touches on the Fermi paradox and great filter while maintaining long-term civilizational optimism.

Foreign Policy, Economics, and IP Imperialism

31:59

Matthew Geiger circles back to connections between culture, foreign policy, and monetary policy, critiquing U.S. aid to Israel and mercantilist justifications. Kinsella delivers a sharp analysis of Pax Americana, dollar hegemony, the military-industrial complex, and how the U.S. exports inflation while benefiting certain industries. He describes “IP imperialism” — patents and copyrights — as tools that allow Hollywood, Big Pharma, and defense contractors to extract wealth from the rest of the world.

Stephan Kinsella on Decentralization, IP, and the Future of the State

36:14

The conversation continues with Matthew Geiger noting decentralization in music production. Kinsella explains how technology (internet, streaming, piracy) has already weakened copyright and predicts 3D printing, robotics, and AI could eventually undermine pharmaceutical patents. He launches into a passionate critique of intellectual property as one of the most anti-libertarian, innovation-harming policies in existence. He envisions technology enabling greater self-sufficiency, causing the state to gradually wither away like the British monarchy — becoming largely ceremonial while private enterprise and civil society take over most functions. Kinsella ends on a hopeful, if long-term, note about humanity maturing beyond tribalism and primitive superstitions.

Closing Thoughts and Resources

55:08

Stephan Kinsella promotes the Property and Freedom Society’s annual conference in Turkey, the new book Rothbard at 100, and his “Universal Principles of Liberty” project (a concise statement of libertarian legal principles). Matthew Geiger thanks Kinsella and expresses interest in attending future events.

Links & Resources:

Stephan Kinsella: stephankinsella.com

Property and Freedom Society: propertyandfreedom.org

Rothbard at 100 (pre-order available)

Mises Institute

Episode Length: Approximately 58 minutes

This episode offers a rich blend of personal history, rigorous libertarian theory, sharp cultural commentary, and forward-looking optimism. Highly recommended for anyone interested in Austrian economics, property rights, critiques of intellectual property, and the future of freedom.

Transcript

Introduction

0:00

Matthew Geiger: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Menger Institute podcast. We have a very special guest. We have with us a retired patent attorney and libertarian writer, Stephan Kinsella. Welcome to the Menger Institute podcast.

Stephan Kinsella: Thanks for having me. Yeah, I'm very excited to talk to you.

How Stephan Kinsella Discovered Libertarianism

0:19

Matthew Geiger: I want to begin, I think, with how you got into libertarianism, your work with Murray Rothbard and Hans-Hermann Hoppe, and yeah if you could tell us your story.

Stephan Kinsella: Well I am, as you mentioned, retired. I did patent law, I did various types of law for about 30 years in private practice in the US: oil and gas law first and then international law and then patent law. So I've done a variety. In the later part a lot of high-tech law. But on the side, I also did a lot of libertarian writing and thinking because I've been interested in it since about high school.

I am from Louisiana. I just came from a conservative household but had zero political or economic knowledge or even historical knowledge. But a librarian gave me The Fountainhead to read in high school and I read it and that got me interested in philosophy and free market economics and individualism. So I started reading voraciously and very soon became a libertarian and then of course reading the Austrians like Mises and Rothbard and the others pretty soon became an Austrian libertarian and then an anarchist. And I've been like that since college or law school.

In law school and after I started trying to expand or develop the theories I've been reading to make some progress where I thought I could. And so that's sort of been my avocation all these years as a lawyer and now it's my main hobby or interest. So that's how I got interested in it and I started attending Mises Institute events in 1995 and did that for many years.

Libertarian vs. Anarchist: Definitions and Preferences

2:17

Matthew Geiger: This may be a question of semantics but you say libertarian and I want to know what your distinction is or preference for describing yourself as libertarian or anarchist.

Stephan Kinsella: Yes, I've always been, so in my view there are two types of libertarians in the sense of your interest. One is activism, that is being part of some movement trying to make change, and then the other is just being interested in the ideas, and then the other is just being a libertarian, like acting in a peaceful way and following those rules....

Kinsella on Liberty Podcast: Episode 491.

https://youtu.be/lfjpoKCWBDA

I've known Paul Cwik, Professor of Economics and Finance at the University of Mount Olive and fellow of the Mises Institute since I started attending the Austrian Scholars Conference in 1995. He is an Austrian and libertarian of sorts but had some qualms with my anti-IP writing so presented a paper "Is There Room for Intellectual Property Rights in Austrian Economics?" at the Austrian Scholars Conference in 2008, which I attended and commented on. After 18 years we finally decided to get around to talking about this. I had planned on an hour but we ended up talking for 3. It turns out we were old friends but not that close; we didn't know much about each other. So the first 30-50 minutes or so is more preliminary discussion.

To his credit, he read a good deal of the huge deluge of material I sent to read up on and asked many very good questions. He did not engage in intentional equivocation that is characteristic of many on the pro-IP side, and he was reasonable in conceding many of my points and was willing to ponder my push back.

I was hoping to get him to see the light, since I have in person seen many people change their minds on IP after a long discussion but have never had it happen while recording. We did not resolve the issue, partly because we just didn't have enough time to keep going, but I think we made some progress. Maybe we will have a Part 2 later. Who knows.

For now, some relevant links pertaining to some of the topics discussed. I will organize this better later.

(Not to be confused with Bryan Cwik, who also has opinions on IP: “Good Ideas is Pretty Scarce”; Bryan Cwik, "Property Rights in Non‐rival Goods" (2, 3, 4); "Labor as the Basis for Intellectual Property Rights" (2; 3); Gamrot, Labor as the Basis for Intellectual Property Rights: Against Cwik.)

IP Proponents Do Not Even Know The Difference Between Patent, Copyright, Trademark … 

Types of Intellectual Property

It is impossible to own ideas

Intellectual Property Rights as Negative Servitudes

The “Ontology” Mistake of Libertarian Creationists

See the Appendix to What Libertarianism Is: section “Concept and Definition of “Property””

The Structural Unity of Real and Intellectual Property

Gamrot, Labor as the Basis for Intellectual Property Rights: Against Cwik

The “Ontology” Mistake of Libertarian Creationists

Objectivists: “All Property is Intellectual Property”

A Recurring Fallacy: “IP is a Purer Form of Property than Material Resources”

New Working Paper: Machan on IP

“Aggression” versus “Harm” in Libertarianism

Kinsella v. Schulman on Logorights and IP

The Nature, Properties, and Characteristics of Goods (Igloo Coolers case)

Fraud, Restitution, and Retaliation: The Libertarian Approach

Libertarian Answer Man: Bitcoin and Fraud

KOL274 | Nobody Owns Bitcoin (PFS 2019)

On Property Rights in Superabundant Bananas and Property Rights as Normative Support for Possession

Libertarian Answer Man: Self-ownership for slaves and Crusoe; and Yiannopoulos on Accurate Analysis and the term “Property”; Mises distinguishing between juristic and economic categories of “ownership”

There are No Good Arguments for Intellectual Property

Defamation as a Type of Intellectual Property (and trademark)

KOL207 | Patent, Copyright, and Trademark Are Not About Plagiarism, Theft, Fraud, or Contract

KOL020 | “Libertarian Legal Theory: Property, Conflict, and Society: Lecture 3: Applications I: Legal Systems, Contract, Fraud” (Mises Academy, 2011)

Copying vs. Plagiarism: A Recent Illustration—Grau vs. Hernandez on Milei

Re the practice of attribution and credit: see Stephan Kinsella, “Mises, Rothbard, Hoppe: An Indispensable Framework,” in  Rothbard at 100: A Tribute and Assessment, Stephan Kinsella and Hans-Hermann Hoppe, eds. (Houston: Papinian Press and Property and Freedom Society, 2026), in the section “Excursus: The Role of Ideas in Human Action”

“Copying, Patent Infringement, Copyright Infringement are not “Theft”, Stealing, Piracy, Plagiarism, Knocking Off, Ripping Off“

Intellectual Property Rights as Negative Servitudes

Stop calling patent and copyright “property”; stop calling copying “theft” and “piracy”

IP Proponents Do Not Even Know The Difference Between Patent, Copyright, Trademark … 

Fraud:

A Libertarian Theory of Contract: Title Transfer, Binding Promises, and Inalienability, Part III.E

“The Title-Transfer Theory of Contract,” Part IV.C

Labor and Leisure

Rothbard on the Main Fallacy of our Time: Marx’s Labor Theory of Value

KOL037 | Locke’s Big Mistake: How the Labor Theory of Property Ruined Political Theory

“Hume on Intellectual Property and the Problematic “Labor” Metaphor”

Cordato and Kirzner on Intellectual Property

Labor, Value, Metaphors, Locke, Intellectual Property

Concise Tweet on the Problem with IP

Against Intellectual Property After Twenty Years: Looking Back and Looking Forward: Part IV.D: "Overreliance on “labor” metaphors also leads to confusion about IP. Locke correctly argued that the first person to “mix his labor with” an unowned resource owns it, since he thereby establishes an objective link to the resource which gives him a better claim to it than latecomers.[55] However, Locke based his argument on the confused and unnecessary idea that a person “owns” his labor and “therefore” owns resources that he mixes it with. But labor is not owned—it is an action, something a person performs with his body, which he does own—and this assumption is not needed for the Lockean labor-mixture argument to work.[56] This mistaken notion leads some people to favor IP because they figure that if you own a scarce resource because you mix your labor with it, you also own useful ideas that are produced with your labor. The related Smith-Ricardo-Marx labor theory of value, which underlies Marxism and socialism, is also sometimes used to support IP, as when people argue that if you work or labor, you “deserve” some kind of reward or profit. All this focus on labor must be rejected as overly metaphorical and confused, and, frankly, Marxian.[57]"

On Libertarian Legal Theory, Self-Ownership and Drug Laws: p. 632

Libertarianism After Fifty Years: What Have We Learned?, p. 687

Creationism:

Libertarian and Lockean Creationism: Creation As a Source of Wealth, not Property Right

Libertarian Creationism

KOL012 | “The Intellectual Property Quagmire, or, The Perils of Libertarian Creationism,” Austrian Scholars Conference 2008

KOL037 | Locke’s Big Mistake: How the Labor Theory of Property Ruined Political Theory

Update: someone asked me:

Dear, Mr. Kinsella

First of all, thank you for your generosity in sharing your knowledge online. I've learned an enormous amount from the lectures and writings you've made available.

My question concerns a passing comment you made in your conversation with Paul Cwik. Around 2:28:55, you said, "I'm skeptical of the concept of Cantillon, but that's my Austrian heresy." and then moved on without returning to it. I wished you had because I've searched your site without finding a fuller treatment, and I don't recall any other Austrian expressing doubt regarding the Cantillon effect.

As I understand the Cantillon effect: when new money is created (whether fiat or commodity), those who receive it first can spend it at prevailing prices before the market adjusts to the higher money supply. This causes economic suffering for those farthest away from the new money. Under the gold standard, this is seen as unfortunate but simply the way of things; under fiat, the new money is completely arbitrary and hence the Cantillon effect is one of the main things the Austrians point to when arguing against fiat currency.

This all seems perfectly valid to me so I would be grateful if you can elaborate on why you said you were "skeptical" of Cantillon.

My response:

because it seems to me focus on a minor effect. The problem wtih the state printing money is not that hte first people get it first. It's that the state gets to spend it. That is what causes inflation and in effect transfers wealth from the populace to the dollar-printer. As an example suppose th US gov has zero taxes and spends $1T a year on defense: buying tanks, jets, ships. It prints $1T and just spends it: it buys the equipment with this new money. It gets $1T worth of stuff for free. Who pays for it? Everryone else b/c the price level goes up. The value of their money held goes down in purchasing power. This is not because the sellers of the jets get the all the benefit. If I spend $1T of new money on a $1T defense system, the seller doens't make $1T. They have costs. So they might make 7% profit off of their $930M costs. The beneficiary of the "free stuff" is not the defense contractor but the state: it gets stuff for free by robbing the general population of money hodlers. The fact that the airplane manufacturer "gets the money first' doesn't change the fact--not much anyway--that basically they have to buy serivce and materials to make the goods and then they get the payment from the state and they only make a normal profit, just like anone else would.

but I am not 100% sure about this

Part III.C.2

C. Contract and Fraud Arguments for IP

Fraud and Plagiarism

“Copying, Patent Infringement, Copyright Infringement are not “Theft”, Stealing, Piracy, Plagiarism, Knocking Off, Ripping Off“

IP by Contract

I discuss problems with the contractual argument for IP in:

Kinsella (2008, pp. 51–55) — Against Intellectual Property

Kinsella, April 8, 2025. “KOL458 | Patent and Copyright versus Innovation, Competition, and Property Rights (APEE 2025).” Kinsella on Liberty Podcast. Link

Kinsella, Law and Intellectual Property in a Stateless Society, Part III.C

...

Kinsella on Liberty Podcast: Episode 490.

This is my interview by Cody Cook (@CantusFirmusCC) of the Libertarian Christian Institute (@LCIOfficial), whose show I've been on previously, (( KOL388 | Cantus Firmus with Cody Cook: Against Intellectual Property. )) and whose book, Faith Seeking Freedom: Libertarian Christian Answers to Tough Questions, I endorsed, to discuss my recent book Rothbard at 100: A Tribute and Assessment (2026). Episode: Rothbard at 100: Why His Ideas Still Matter, with Stephan Kinsella (May 22, 2026 (recorded May 5, 2026)). Cody was an excellent interviewer, which is one reason I think this was one of my most comfortable and relaxed performances ever.

https://youtu.be/VrxyNvzTonE?si=YWammoXzdzEmFfJo

From his longer article Rothbard at 100: Why His Ideas Still Matter, with Stephan Kinsella (May 22, 2026):

***

If he hadn’t passed away in 1995, Murray Rothbard would have turned one hundred this year. Why do his ideas still endure, inspire, and provoke? The answer isn’t nostalgia. It’s that Rothbard’s ideas continue to shape libertarian thought, economics, and the case for a free society in ways few thinkers ever have. His influence is visible in the modern liberty movement, in the resurgence of Austrian economics, and in the ongoing debates about property, the state, and intellectual freedom.

Stephan Kinsella (@NSKinsella), co-editor of the new book Rothbard at 100, joins Cody Cook to explain why Rothbard’s legacy endures. The episode argues that Rothbard still matters because he built a framework that remains indispensable for understanding political economy, human action, and the moral limits of state power.

The Case for Rothbard: Ten Reasons Why Rothbard Still Matters

1. Rothbard helped define the modern libertarian movement

Rothbard stands at the foundation of the post‑war libertarian tradition, synthesizing Austrian economics, natural rights theory, and radical anti‑statism into a coherent worldview. The episode argues that without him, the movement would lack its intellectual backbone. This is one of the core reasons Rothbard still matters: he built the architecture others now inhabit.

2. He systematized libertarianism into a full philosophy

Where earlier thinkers offered fragments, Rothbard produced treatises. Man, Economy, and State, Power and Market, and The Ethics of Liberty form a unified system of economics, ethics, and political theory. That system continues to anchor libertarian scholarship.

3. Rothbard advanced Austrian economics beyond Mises

Rothbard didn’t merely popularize Mises; he extended him. His corrections to monopoly theory and his insistence that state‑created privilege—not market structure—is the real source of monopoly remain central to Austrian analysis. This refinement is one of the reasons Rothbard still matters for anyone studying markets and state intervention.

4. He embraced radical conclusions others avoided

Rothbard took the logic of liberty to its endpoint: anarcho‑capitalism. Even those who reject that conclusion must grapple with his arguments. His willingness to follow principles to their logical end continues to challenge libertarians who prefer half‑measures.

5. His contract theory remains groundbreaking

Kinsella argues that Rothbard’s “title‑transfer theory of contract,” is one of his most overlooked achievements. It reframes contracts not as promises but as transfers of property titles. This innovation still shapes libertarian legal theory and is a key reason Rothbard still matters in debates about consent, obligation, and ownership.

6. Rothbard influenced the thinkers who influence us

Hans‑Hermann Hoppe, one of the most important living libertarian theorists, was one of Rothbard’s closest students. The intellectual lineage from Mises → Rothbard → Hoppe forms a framework Kinsella calls “indispensable.” Understanding that lineage is essential for understanding today’s liberty movement.

7. He built institutions that still shape the movement

Rothbard helped launch the Mises Institute and mentored scholars who now lead major libertarian organizations. His institutional legacy ensures that his ideas continue to shape research, education, and activism.

8. Rothbard’s historical works remain unmatched

Conceived in Liberty and his Austrian Perspective on the History of Economic Thought demonstrate a breadth few libertarian thinkers have matched. His historical method—tracing ideas, incentives, and power—still informs how libertarians analyze political development.

9. His mistakes sharpened later libertarian theory

The episode doesn’t hide Rothbard’s errors, especially on intellectual property. Kinsella argues that Rothbard’s missteps helped clarify why scarcity, not creation, grounds property rights. Even his mistakes are reasons Rothbard still matters, because they pushed the theory forward.

10. Rothbard’s work remains accessible and alive

The new Rothbard at 100 Festschrift—featuring scholars who knew him and those shaped by him—shows that his ideas continue to inspire serious scholarship. The fact that this book exists is itself a reason Rothbard still matters: his intellectual world is still expanding.

Conclusion

Rothbard still matters because he built something durable. His synthesis of Austrian economics, natural rights, and radical anti‑statism remains the most coherent framework for understanding liberty. The episode argues that his influence is not a relic but a living force shaping how libertarians think about property, the state, and human action.

Kinsella’s case is that Rothbard’s work forms part of an indispensable triad with Mises and Hoppe. That framework continues to guide scholars, pastors, activists, and anyone seeking a principled defense of a free society. The reasons Rothbard still matters are not sentimental—they are structural. His ideas continue to do real work in the world.

 

Additional Resources

From the Libertarian Christian Podcast

“We Don’t Need No Stinkin’ Intellectual Property” — Kinsella’s earlier appearance on LCP discussing why IP conflicts with libertarian principles.

“Faith Seeking Freedom (2nd Edition)” — Mentioned in the episode; LCI’s expanded guide to Christian libertarianism.

External Reads

Rothbard at 100 — The Property and Freedom Society’s tribute to Murray Rothbard, edited by Stephan Kinsella and Hans-Hermann Hoppe.

Murray Rothbard, The Ethics of Liberty — Rothbard’s core moral and political treatise; foundational for natural‑rights libertarianism.

Murray Rothbard, Man, Economy, and State — His major economic work, extending Misesian praxeology.

Hans‑Hermann Hoppe, A Theory of Socialism and Capitalism — Represents the next step in the Mises‑Rothbard‑Hoppe lineage.

Stephan Kinsella, Legal Foundations of a Free Society — Kinsella’s own contribution, heavily influenced by Rothbard and discussed in the episode.

Stephan Kinsella, Against Intellectual Property — Kinsella’s robust and persuasive argumentation for abandoning the notion of intellectual property.

Kinsella on Liberty Podcast: Episode 489.

“The Problem with Intellectual Property,” audio. Thanks to Jorge Besada, using AI. I think this is my best comprehensive, recent, yet concise take on IP.

From Stephan Kinsella, “The Problem with Intellectual Property,” Papinian Press Working Paper #2 (May 15, 2025), forthcoming in Handbook of the Philosophical Foundations of Business Ethics, 2nd ed., Christoph Lütge & Marianne Thejls Ziegler, eds. (Springer, forthcoming 2026; Robert McGee, section ed.).

https://youtu.be/r8UAnSmmXIc

Kinsella on Liberty Podcast: Episode 488.

Audio version of Stephan Kinsella, “My Years with the Mises Institute,” Property and Freedom Journal (May 2, 2026). Audio prepared with AI by Jorge Besada.

Related:

Hans-Hermann Hoppe, “Mises Institute: Quo Vadis?: Postscript,” Property and Freedom Journal (April 17, 2026)

Hans-Hermann Hoppe, “Mises Institute: Quo Vadis?”, Property and Freedom Journal (March 25, 2026)

https://youtu.be/Vm9iTvbDExo

From the article:

Introduction

Hans Hoppe recently published “Mises Institute: Quo Vadis?”, which contains various criticisms of the Mises Institute (MI) as it is currently organized.1 He has since been removed as Distinguished Senior Fellow by MI.2 I fully support Hans and do not disagree with anything he wrote.3

Here I would like to mention my own experience with MI, with which I have been associated, on and off, for over thirty years, since 1994. I have discussed some of this history previously,4 but as my experience has certain parallels to that of Hans I will go into more detail here than I have in the past.

Despite my critical remarks here I, too, share Hans’s admiration for Lew Rockwell (discussed below) and what he achieved with the Mises Institute. I love the mission of the MI and the role it has played for the last 44 years. It is due to my concern over the decline of MI, and its treatment of Hans, that I publish these remarks. Pursuit of liberty is always a quest for truth. But truth is fragile and seems easily cast aside by those with more base motives. With that in mind, I offer some of my own thoughts on these matters—entreating the reader to judge the reasonableness of my position (and that of Hoppe).

Read more>>

Kinsella on Liberty Podcast: Episode 487.

Also podcast as Property and Freedom Podcast, Episode 323.

AI-assisted audio narration of the main chapters of Rothbard at 100: A Tribute and Assessment (Papinian Press and The Saif House, 2026) is available at this PFS Youtube Playlist; the mp3 files may also be downloaded in this zip file.

The first two chapters—my "Preface" and Hans's “Introduction”—were published the week of Rothbard's birthday here on the Property and Freedom Podcast (PFP315 and PFP314). The other main chapters will be released sequentially weekly on Mondays. The next in the queue:

8. Stephan Kinsella, “Mises, Rothbard, Hoppe: An Indispensable Framework”

https://youtu.be/n7OTxD-c1Mg?si=fiCzePXZvdQLrko4

Kinsella on Liberty Podcast: Episode 486.

https://youtu.be/olnDr8mDjlQ?si=mmoYBJWM_8yzmd1t

This is my appearance on the Mark Edge show. Shownotes:

Mark Edge invites libertarian legal theorist and retired patent attorney Stephan Kinsella to unpack the stunning April 1st memo from the Mises Institute announcing that Hans-Hermann Hoppe — their longtime Distinguished Senior Fellow and arguably the most important living Rothbardian — is no longer affiliated with the Institute.

Kinsella walks through the backstory: his own 2013 resignation, the recent departures of three Mises presidents, a private memo Hoppe and Guido Hülsmann sent the board over governance issues, tensions surrounding Javier Milei, and the "Quo Vadis" essay that preceded Hoppe's termination.

Kinsella also previews the new book he and Hoppe co-edited celebrating Murray Rothbard's 100th birthday, the upcoming Rothbard celebration in Porto, Portugal (June 27), and the Property and Freedom Society meeting in September.

Related:

Hoppe Removed as Mises Institute Senior Distinguished Fellow

Hoppe, “Mises Institute: Quo Vadis?,” Property and Freedom Journal (March 25, 2026)

Hoppe: Mises Institute: Quo Vadis: Postscript

Kinsella on Liberty Podcast: Episode 485.

My recent appearance on The Brownstone Show, Ep. 17 (twitter video).

https://youtu.be/n_HE_nXf3aM?si=3eYpF5jW5HadXwJD&t=1942

From Brownstone's shownotes:

Jeffrey Tucker sits down with Stephan Kinsella...libertarian attorney, author of the seminal 2001 essay "Against Intellectual Property", and the massive treatise "Legal Foundations of a Free Society"...for a provocative discussion on why defamation (libel and slander) law should be rejected as just another form of intellectual property right.

Kinsella argues that reputation is not ownable property. What others think of you cannot be controlled or turned into a legal entitlement. Defamation law, like patents, copyrights, and trademarks, rests on the flawed idea that the state should protect intangible "rights" through force. He explains how these laws create chilling effects, perverse incentives, and actually amplify the harm of false speech rather than reduce it.

Topics covered include:

Why intellectual property (including trademarks and defamation) is incompatible with true property rights and free markets

The historical and common-law roots of defamation and how it morphed into reputation-as-property

How the existence of defamation lawsuits gives lies more credibility ("If it weren't true, he would have sued")

Free speech, threats, and the limits of state power

Private alternatives: reputation markets, certification agencies, dueling culture, caveat emptor for information, and why a truly free society would be more (not less) regulated by voluntary rules

Connections to patents destroying innovation (especially in pharma and software), NDAs, cancel culture, and the illusion of safety created by regulatory bodies like the FDA

Why "buyer beware" should apply to both products and information in a free society

This is a challenging, nuanced conversation that questions deeply held assumptions about law, harm, honor, and reputation. Even if you initially disagree, Kinsella’s razor-sharp property-rights analysis will make you rethink how we handle speech, lies, and "harm" in the digital age.

Tweet:

👉The Brownstone Show: @jeffreytucker interviews @NSKinsella: Why defamation law is just another form of intellectual property—and why abolishing it would make lies less powerful, not more. Eye-opening take on reputation, free speech, and private alternatives. 🔏 pic.twitter.com/dY1JWagDoA

— Brownstone Institute (@brownstoneinst) April 9, 2026

Related:

“Defamation as a Type of Intellectual Property,” in A Life in Liberty: Liber Amicorum in Honor of Hans-Hermann Hoppe, edited by Jörg Guido Hülsmann & Stephan Kinsella (Houston, Texas: Papinian Press, 2024)

"Against Intellectual Property"

"Legal Foundations of a Free Society"

“The Problem with Intellectual Property,” in Handbook of the Philosophical Foundations of Business Ethics, 2nd ed., Christoph Lütge & Marianne Thejls Ziegler, eds. (Springer, forthcoming 2026; Robert McGee, section ed.)

On dueling: Libertarian Answer Man: Dueling, Stalking, Restraining Orders

Review of Patrick Burke, No Harm: Ethical Principles for a Free Market (1994)

Transcript below.

As Tucker mentioned to me: I seriously doubt that any podcast ever has made this crucial point, namely that market forces can be more ferocious regulators than federal agencies that have been set up for the purpose of providing legal cover for unsafe products. So this discussion breaks important new ground in understanding what the free market really is. I hope people make it all the way through—it's a completely different take than I've ever seen.

My comment: This is a good illustration of the power of cumulative ideas. I feel like Patrick Swayze in the movie Road House: tagline: "Bustin heads and breakin' hearts."

Funny interchange:

Kinsella: You could imagine if there was not the litigious, legal industry of defamation lawsuits and it was not a legal thing. You could imagine private solutions would emerge. In fact, the private solution used to be, “I challenge you to a duel.” You besmirch my honor. But of course, the state has outlawed dueling.

Tucker: I keep imagining that there should be a resurrection of at least a rigorously constructed defense of dueling in history. I think it has gotten a bad name, actually.

Kinsella: Do you think you and I would still be around if dueling was permitted?

Jeffrey Tucker: Yeah. One of us would at least have a ...

Kinsella: Kinsella and Tucker dead at 41.

Tucker: I am not that good a shot, and I am not sure you are either.

Stephan Kinsella: Right. I do not mean us either, you know?

Transcript

[Speaker names may not always be correctly attributed; blame Grok and ChatGPT, Gemini seemed to help]

Introduction to Stephan Kinsella and His Views on Intellectual Property

[0:10]

Jeffrey Tucker: This is Jeffrey Tucker, President, Brownstone Institute. I am very pleased today to have with me Stephan Kinsella, an attorney who is the author of a 2001 article called “Against Intellectual Property” and more recently, a large treatise called “The Legal Foundations of a Free Society.” He is one of the most important thinkers of our time, and I think he has had a huge influence on me.

At some point in the mid-2010s, because his article came out, I thought it was probably not correct. I thought it was wrong; at least I thought it was a distraction. Essentially, what the article says is that intellectual property is an illegitimate concept, that ideas cannot be commodified and turned into property, and that the attempt to do so is destructive of market forces, information flows, and society in particular. This pertains to copyrights, patents, and yes, even trademarks.

The thesis is shocking, and probably as you listen to this, you are thinking that cannot be true. Then nobody would have the incentive to create, and so on. These are the usual comebacks. But I promise you, if you think about it long enough, as I did for years, you eventually come to be persuaded. Because of that, I shifted in my own career to only publishing within the commons. There was, at some point in this period, an innovation of the copyright status that made available to publishers what is called Creative Commons, with a number of different licenses and terms of use.

So, in my own work, I embraced the Creative Commons license with only one provision of attribution. That has been, I think, a real key to the success of many of my own personal projects. Also, as a publisher, Brownstone only publishes in the commons. As far as I know, we are the only ones. There may be other nonprofits that do it, but I am not familiar with them. It is a completely different model.

One thing about this model is that it prevents conflicts between the publishers and authors. If an author does not like what Brownstone is doing, does not think we are marketing it enough, or does not like us anymore, they are free to take it back and go to another publisher. We are not holding anybody against their will, which prevents conflicts.

Normal publishers not only retain copyright but also tie that to distribution rights, which last for the lifetime of the author plus 70 years. This means that an author’s grandchildren are the ones who will be responsible for getting the work back in print at some point. Most authors have no idea what they are getting into when they enter into these contracts. It is actually quite sad.

The patent issue is another matter entirely. It has practically destroyed innovation in the software world and, unfortunately, innovation in many aspects of life has led to vast corporate cronyism, particularly in the pharmaceutical industry. There is an enormous amount of unspeakable corruption in pharmaceuticals as a result of patents.

Today, we are not going to want to rehearse all these arguments on this particular topic, although it is important to understand them as background. What we are going to do today with Stephan is discuss a much more difficult and related topic, which has to do with the issue of defamation. This is a major problem in the world of the Internet, where anybody can just go online and say anything about anyone.

The courts have always said that it has had, at best, very high standards for defamation in the case of public figures, and it hardly ever works to sue somebody for defamation. We have got a kind of defamation free-for-all going on. This is made much worse by the NDAs that are ubiquitous in the corporate world today, so that everybody is under some kind of non-disparagement agreement. This has provided a kind of a license for defamation on the Internet.

Stephan takes an unusual position. I think I am just going to use this interview to explore this a little bit and any other related areas. Welcome to the Brownstone Show. Stephan, thanks for coming.

Stephan Kinsella: Thanks very much, Jeff. Glad to be here.

Intuitions Behind Defamation Law and Connection to Property Rights

[5:44]

Jeffrey Tucker: Let us start with the basics. I mean, let me just say at the outset, it connects with a certain intuition, I think, in British law and just normal course of life that there is something wrong with defamation. You have to think about it this way: Would you rather have somebody steal a potted plant off your porch or have some major account smear you all over the Internet as an evil, terrible person in ways that you cannot contradict?

There is a sense in which it seems defamation can be potentially more injurious to the individual than, say, petty theft. So you recognize that, right? That is the source, I think, of defamation law.

Stephan Kinsella: Absolutely. I think that the intuition is that, a kind of rough approximation of the law is that the law is there to stop you from being harmed. It is to stop harm. That is it. Generally, acts of aggression harm you, which is why the law prohibits aggression and theft and