Welcome to Koanversation, a podcast exploring Zen nuggets to free your mind and inspire new thinking.

This episode’s koan is nothing less than a matter of life and death. Joining host Sanj Krishnan to investigate is award-winning filmmaker, film programmer and art historian Zegan Doyle, who brings an intuitive and eloquent mind to a blockbuster koan.

Note: please excuse the sound quality this episode. We had to use Zoom as a fallback, and it always compresses audio.

Text of the Koan, “Kyogen Mounts the Tree”:

Kyogen said: "Zen is like a man hanging in a tree by his teeth over a precipice. His hands grasp no branch, his feet rest on no limb, and under the tree another person asks him: 'Why did Bodhidharma come to China from India?'"

If the man in the tree does not answer, he fails; and if he does answer, he falls and loses his life. Now what shall he do?"

Mumon’s comment: In such a predicament the most talented eloquence is of no use. If you have memorized all the sutras, you cannot use them. When you can give the right answer, even though your past road was one of death, you open up a new road of life. But if you cannot answer, you should live ages hence and ask the future Buddha, Maitreya.

Kyogen is truly a foolSpreading that ego-killing poisonThat closes his pupils' mouthsAnd lets their tears stream from their dead eyes.

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Welcome to Koanversation, a podcast exploring Zen nuggets to free your mind and inspire new thinking.

In this episode, host Sanj Krishnan is joined by a philosopher in the truest sense of the word’s Greek root (philos + sophia = love of wisdom): Derek Gummer, a gearhead Renaissance man with an astonishing breadth of knowledge and some equally impressive self-taught maker skills, which you can see at his YouTube channel.

Our Koan, number four in The Gateless Barrier, is “A Beardless Foreigner” - a short, seemingly inane one that turns out to provoke incredibly rich discussion. We talk about authenticity, the deeply rooted impulse to conform, and where a person’s worth ultimately lies.

Text of the Koan, “A Beardless Foreigner”:

Wakuan complained when he saw a picture of bearded Bodhidharma: "Why hasn't that fellow a beard?"

There’s no song this time, which may come as a relief to some.

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, feel free to hit ‘Subscribe’ below and check out the first three Koanversations. And share your thoughts by leaving a comment!

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit inclusivemagic.substack.com

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Koanversation, a podcast exploring Zen nuggets to free your mind and inspire new thinking.

In this episode, host Sanj Krishnan is joined by guest Priya Sudarsanam, an intuitive healer, mindset coach and host of Unmute with Priya, to delve into the surprising (and a little brutal) third koan in The Gateless Barrier, in which a Zen master cuts off the finger of a boy who’s imitating him.

The koan opens the door to discussion about intergenerational pain, breaking our attachment to the ideas we cling to, and becoming mindful of our unquestioned habitual thinking. Of course, a koan wouldn’t be a koan if it were just “about” that stuff—it’s a powerful device for realisation, and we grapple with what this might be getting at.

And you can hear Sanj’s creative response to the koan, a song entitled “Finger-Zen Blues”.

Text of the Koan:

Gutei raised his finger whenever he was asked a question about Zen. A boy attendant began to imitate him in this way. When anyone asked the boy what his master had preached about, the boy would raise his finger.

Gutei heard about the boy's mischief. He seized him and cut off his finger. The boy cried and ran away. Gutei called and stopped him. When the boy turned his head to Gutei, Gutei raised up his own finger. In that instant the boy was enlightened.

When Gutei was about to pass from this world he gathered his monks around him. "I attained my finger-Zen," he said, "from my teacher Tenryu, and in my whole life I could not exhaust it." Then he passed away.

Mumon’s comment: Enlightenment, which Gutei and the boy attained, has nothing to do with a finger. If anyone clings to a finger, Tenryu will be so disappointed that he will annihilate Gutei, the boy, and the clinger all together.

Gutei cheapens the teaching of Tenryu,Emancipating the boy with a knife.Compared to the Chinese god who pushed aside a mountain with one hand,Old Gutei is a poor imitator.

Song: Finger-Zen Blues

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This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit inclusivemagic.substack.com

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Welcome to Koanversation, a podcast exploring Zen nuggets to free your mind and inspire new thinking.

In this episode, host Sanj Krishnan is joined by screenwriter Gene Wang to delve into the perplexing (and epic) second koan in The Gateless Barrier.

We talk about meditation, karma and why slapping a Zen master might be a sign of enlightenment.

And you can hear Sanj’s creative response to the koan, a song entitled “The Mind That Says Keep Nothing”.

Here’s the text of the koan:

Once when Hyakujo delivered some Zen lectures an old man attended them, unseen by the monks. At the end of each talk when the monks left so did he. But one day he remained after they had gone, and Hyakujo asked him: "Who are you?"

The old man replied: "I am not a human being, but I was a human being when the Kashapa Buddha preached in this world. I was a Zen master and lived on this mountain. At that time one of my students asked me whether or not the enlightened man is subject to the law of causation. I answered him: 'The enlightened man is not subject to the law of causation.' For this answer evidencing a clinging to absoluteness I became a fox for five hundred rebirths, and I am still a fox. Will you save me from this condition with your Zen words and let me get out of a fox's body? Now may I ask you: Is the enlightened man subject to the law of causation?"

Hyakujo said: "The enlightened man is one with the law of causation."

At the words of Hyakujo the old man was enlightened. "I am emancipated," he said, paying homage with a deep bow. "I am no more a fox, but I have to leave my body in my dwelling place behind this mountain. Please perform my funeral as a monk." Then he disappeared.

The next day Hyakujo gave an order through the chief monk to prepare to attend the funeral of a monk. "No one was sick in the infirmary," wondered the monks. "What does our teacher mean?"

After dinner Hyakujo led the monks out and around the mountain. In a cave, with his staff he poked out the corpse of an old fox and then performed the ceremony of cremation.

That evening Hyakujo gave a talk to the monks and told them this story about the law of causation.

Obaku, upon hearing the story, asked Hyakujo: "I understand that a long time ago because a certain person gave a wrong Zen answer he became a fox for five hundred rebirths. Now I want to ask: If some modern master is asked many questions and he always gives the right answer, what will become of him?"

Hyakujo said: "You come here near me and I will tell you."

Obaku went near Hyakujo and slapped the teacher's face with his hand, for he knew this was the answer his teacher intended to give him.

Hyakujo clapped his hands and laughed at this discernment. "I thought a Persian had a red beard," he said, "and now I know a Persian who has a red beard.”

Song: “The Mind That Says Keep Nothing”

Koanversation is available on Substack, Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Check out the rest of the Inclusive Magic Substack for more philosophy and inanity.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit inclusivemagic.substack.com

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Koanversation, a podcast unlocking the widsom and fun of the enigmatic Zen koan.

Koans are millennium-old anecdotes of moments between Zen masters and students that pose utterly baffling philosophical puzzles. No matter how hard you try, they defy logical explanation—and that’s the point.

They’re meant to get you out of your head and expand how you think.

If you want to think in a more creative, unexpected and playful way, this is the podcast for you.

Hosted by Sanj Krishnan, each episode of Koanversation takes one koan from 13th century anthology The Gateless Barrier by Wumen Huikai, and explores it with the help of a guest.

Episode 1: Joshu’s Dog

In this first episode, host Sanj Krishnan and guest Marco Benatar tackle the first and most elusive koan of all, "Joshu's Dog". You'll hear us fall into the very mental traps we claim to be able to avoid. And we do this with the help of Sanj's dog Indy.

A monk asked Joshu, a Chinese Zen master: "Has a dog Buddha-nature or not?"

Joshu answered: "Mu."

What on earth does that mean? That’s what this episode explores.

During the episode, you can hear Sanj’s creative response to the koan, a song entitled “Does a Dog Have (Mu)”.

If you’ve enjoyed this, subscribe to Koanversation to get alerts for future episodes.

A little disclaimer: Zen is a 1500-year-old discipline to which many people devote their entire lives, with full-hearted dedication, humility and sincerity. This podcast is run by a relative newbie to Zen, certainly not a master or expert. It also has a playful, irreverent bent to it. It’s not intended to be disrespectful—but equally, Zen is not meant to be humourless. And Zen is not about deference to authority; it’s about finding your own answers.

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit inclusivemagic.substack.com

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.