Follow along in the journey as I, Lance, talk to everyday people sharing their stories and the truth that rings out through each of them.
I pursue more of what myself and others are learning
... moreBy Lance Foulis
Follow along in the journey as I, Lance, talk to everyday people sharing their stories and the truth that rings out through each of them.
I pursue more of what myself and others are learning
... more5
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The podcast currently has 32 episodes available.
In This Episode…
I sit down with Alex Markley and Susie Reed from Markley Bros. Entertainment. We get to catch up on what they have been up to building and creating new content. We get to learn about how they do what they do creating fun and entertaining content.
Welcome Back to Lancelot's Roundtable Season 3.
In This Episode…
I'm happy to welcome Romy Nos to the Roundtable. Years ago when I was about to finish College, Romy and I took the plunge and decided to take a trip to Europe for a month. In this episode we re-count what lead us to make the decision to go on this adventure, the countries we visited and our experiences on our adventure.
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Episode Length: 1 hour 46 minutes
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"It's gonna happen, people are gonna be evil, people are going to do do evil things... but if someone doesn't do something, it's just going to be that much worse" - Jake
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Welcome Back to Lancelot's Roundtable Season 3.
In This Episode…
I'm happy to welcome George Loukoumis to the Roundtable. George Immigrated to the United States years ago from Greece. We are joined by special guest co-host Cal Militaru who I interviewed in Episode 8. In this episode we talk with George about his experience moving to Findlay, Ohio to go to college, meeting his wife there, and ultimately moving to Columbus, Ohio where he and his wife built a life.
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Episode Length: 1 hour 19 minutes
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"It's gonna happen, people are gonna be evil, people are going to do do evil things... but if someone doesn't do something, it's just going to be that much worse" - Jake
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Welcome Back to Lancelot's Roundtable Season 3.
In This Episode…
I'm joined by local freelance artist Sam Brieck. For this episode I asked Tony Garner and Brandon Jenkins from episode 18 to join as special guest co-hosts. Together we take a deep dive in to Sam's journey in becoming a freelance artist. It's a fascinating story of how Sam has worked to learn, hone and challenge his skills as an artist. We also discuss balancing having a family while working as an artist. I hope you enjoy listening to this episode.
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Commercial Art Career Center
Columbus College of Art & Design
Wet Ink Games
Crafting outlaws
CCAD Art Fair
Commercial Art Career Center
Finding/Contacting Sam:
Website - https://www.brieckdraw.com
IG - https://www.instagram.com/brieckdraw/?hl=en
Etsy - https://www.etsy.com/shop/BrieckDraw
Episode Length: 1 hour 27 minutes
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"It's gonna happen, people are gonna be evil, people are going to do do evil things... but if someone doesn't do something, it's just going to be that much worse" - Jake
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Welcome Back to Lancelot's Roundtable Season 3.
In This Episode…
My special guests Beau, Maggie, Kim and I dive in to the intense and agonizing topic of grief. Whether or not you've experienced harrowing grief. Whether or not you've experienced the excruciating loss of something dear to you. You are not going to want to miss this episode. On today's Roundtable, we look in to the abyss of grief and try to make some sense of of the deep pain we sometimes must walk through.
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Learning to walk in the Dark by Barbara Brown Taylor
theHealingCareCenter.org
Maslow’s Hierarchy of needs - https://www.simplypsychology.org/maslow.html
Jocko Podcast 201 w/ Ryan Manion: "The Knock at the Door"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFAosAUqyH0
Travis Manion Foundation:
https://www.travismanion.org/about-us/tmf-staff-and-board/ryan-manion/
Episode Length: 1 hour 37 minutes
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"It's gonna happen, people are gonna be evil, people are going to do do evil things... but if someone doesn't do something, it's just going to be that much worse" - Jake
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Welcome Back to a brand new Season of Lancelot's Roundtable.
In This Episode…
It's the season premier of Season 3. I'm so excited to welcome Master Jon Bennett who taught me Karate. The particular style of karate we trained in - Shorin-Ryu comes from Okinawa. On today's Roundtable, Jon and I look back at the time of training in his classes years ago, the invaluable lessons learned, and the courage to not quit even when things are difficult.
I'm incredibly proud of this episode and thrilled to be able to share it.
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Episode Length: 1 hour 9 minutes
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"It's gonna happen, people are gonna be evil, people are going to do do evil things... but if someone doesn't do something, it's just going to be that much worse" - Jake
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Episode 25 -
Growing up in a family that owns a small business, venturing into risks, and talking politics.
I’ve looked forward to talking to Beau for a long time. She is a ‘Jack of all trades’. Beau grew up in Appalachia in a family that owned a small business. She has lived and worked in the crazy world of politics and she works with incredibly innovative entrepreneurs. I’m excited for you to get to know Beau.
In This Episode…
We take a plunge into learning about, growing up in rural America, small business owners, innovative entrepreneurs, and good old-fashioned hard working folks
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Links to People and Companies We Mentioned in the Show
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Episode Length: 59 minutes
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"If you don’t do the work and make it - it will never exist" - Alex Markley
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Public Episode Page
59 min
Unpublished Draft
Lance Foulis 0:01
Everybody, welcome to another bonus episode of the Lancelot roundtable. For this bonus episode, I wanted to try something new we hadn't previously done on the roundtable. Allow me to elaborate. When I was originally thinking of doing this bonus episode, I wanted it to be a review of the first season of the chosen TV series. Well, as we recorded, it turned out a bit differently than I had originally planned. So I wanted to explain three things before you listen to the episode. First thing, my special guest co-host, and I talk about reviewing the chosen throughout throughout our our talk. What actually happened during this recording wasn't really a review. Instead, I would say we just had a discussion about the chosen TV series as we recapped our thoughts and feelings for watching the first season. Second, as already stated, My original like what I was thinking about envisioning for this bonus episode was kind of a review of the entire season of the chosen TV series of the first season. Well, one episode recording for Lancelot roundtable was not even nearly enough time to do a quote review of an entire season of a TV TV series. So we we didn't even remotely get close to the end of the entire to like talking about the whole the whole first season of the chosen. And third, there are spoilers obviously in this in in our discussion of the chosen TV series. So listen at your own risk if you haven't seen it already. Now if you haven't, I really highly recommend it. So definitely, definitely take the time to go see it. Now I definitely hope that you enjoy listening to our discussion. And as always, thank you so much for taking the time to listen into the roundtable we really appreciate all of you that regularly listen in to our episodes.
David Eckl 1:50
You get your paycheck today but every month you have to go to this hut stand in line and pay it
Lance Foulis 1:58
yeah cuz right now dude like we don't have to see how much taxes are coming out of our paycheck Yes, we just get our direct deposit and and then every time you look at your your your cheque and you're like, wait, you took how much my paycheck would have been what Hello, everybody and welcome back to land sloths roundtable. Today we have an episode where we are going to be reviewing a TV series. That TV series is called a chosen. And here to help me with that review is my good friend David eco. Dave, welcome to the roundtable. Hi,
David Eckl 2:44
Lance. Happy to be here.
Lance Foulis 2:45
Yeah, happy to have you man. So we are going to be doing a review of the chosen. You feel up for that.
David Eckl 2:50
I am totally up for it. Sweet. One of the best. Yes,
Lance Foulis 2:54
it's a fantastic fantastic series. Why don't you tell the people a little bit about yourself?
David Eckl 2:59
Yeah, so Lance you and I met a couple of years ago couple couple it's I think it's been seven or eight it seems like it's been a couple but at the company we currently work for still today. I am a big apple aficionado as you well know we've already talked about that.
Lance Foulis 3:15
Number eight your cubicle you had those like what was it like the original icons on the very first app or something like that?
David Eckl 3:21
I had something like that a lot of Apple pictures now it's just working from home I don't have those anymore. So yeah, forget about it. But yeah, big apple time. Guy love it. love everything about it.
Lance Foulis 3:33
They heard you kind of like golf to
David Eckl 3:36
golf. Yes. Golf on the weekends in the summer is kind of my go to I really enjoy the time out on the course. My data to now has a month old, three year old. So it's a little hectic in the home. But we're making it you make it work, right? We make it work. That's for sure. There's two boys, right? Two boys, Olin and Bo and I'm really thankful for them. I love being a dad, as I'm sure you're well aware. Oh, it's fantastic. So
Lance Foulis 4:06
it's I feel like it's one of the biggest challenges ever been through. But it's also one of the biggest rewards biggest adventure biggest reward? Yes. Especially when you really I feel like once we got past the infant stage. I mean, we've had this conversation before. When you're when for me personally, when I was in the infant stage, it was just lack of sleep really got to me. Yes. So once we got out of the infant stage and everybody's sleeping through the night, then it just becomes like, Oh, you're living with these little humans that have these really interesting personalities. They throw giant fits sometimes. And that's not fun, but it's still very fascinating. And then like when they do start Yeah, it's just it's very rewarding, right? challenging, but rewarding,
David Eckl 4:42
right. One of my biggest things I like to say is the word bummer around the home, so bummer. Well now my three almost three year old is now walking around the house and saying Oh bummer. Yeah, when something isn't right and I'm like okay, they are little sponges.
Lance Foulis 4:56
They are little sponges. They absorb everything. They watch everything they See it all? Yeah, it's kind of scary. Anyway. So today, Dave, we're going to review the chosen. I don't remember when I found out about this. I think the first season was out when I first heard about it, I think was one of our friends one of Kim's good friends. Christine, I think she messaged Kim or something because we were frustrated about, there's nothing that kids can watch. There's nothing, there's nothing good that we can watch. And then I think it was Christine who messenger on Facebook or something was like, Hey, I, you guys should just watch the chosen the kids loved our kids love the chosen and it's really good. And it's really well done. So then I found out that it was like, I'm putting this in quotes everybody a Christian show. And I personally have some thoughts about, again, Christian in quotes, content that gets created movies, right feel like you can kind of always tell when you see one of these TV shows or movies. Oh, yeah, this is this is done by one of those Christian. I don't even know what you'd call them. But with with this. So when I went in, I was like, I wasn't very excited about watching this. And I think Kim and I then watched, like the first episode, and I was literally just blown away. Everything. Everything was just spot on. The music was amazing. The acting was fantastic. And the emote, you were immediately drawn in. I just I loved it. I was hooked right away. You
David Eckl 6:29
Yeah, the theatrics of it. I think that's what you're looking for. There was just on point, like, it was one of those things where, especially in the day and age today, if you're not hooked from the start, or kind of get a little bit, you know, have a sense of Wow, that's good. You might not watch it past, you know, the intro or first, you know, a couple of minutes in there. 100% I think for my wife and I Katie, we're just like, wow, like, is intense. Yes, it is intense. It's kind of I like the it's a straight shot in terms of you know, what they're trying to talk about. It's not like they're trying to cover everything in one episode. It's spread out obviously over. Yep. And I really appreciated like, there's a very serious part in every thing that they're talking about. But there's also the humor. Yeah, that keeps you kind of coming back. Yes. It's funny. I really, you know, I, I watched season one and two, we watched it again. We're like, Let's go like, let's watch. Let's get to the other seasons. I know they have seven. Planning. Yeah, planning seven. So they are in
Lance Foulis 7:29
three right there in
David Eckl 7:30
three. So three just got got funded, officially, the whole series, the whole series got funded. So the whole season, the whole season. So now they're going to start filming. Okay, so I'm excited. Yeah, very excited. It's actually I did have a couple of notes here that I was surprised about is actually shot in Utah. So season one into place. I knew that Utah, yeah. And they're now they moved it down to Dallas. And that's where season three and beyond will be shot. But also the cool part about it when I was reading about it, is that they're actually going to create a tourist attraction, where you can go seasonally, that's, and thanks. So I think that would be a fun kind of thing to go see how it's shot. And yeah, maybe some of the people are there that are the actors and you know, the different props and how they did it would be a cool thing to see. Yeah, take the kids 200%
Lance Foulis 8:20
agree with that. I didn't know any of that. I don't even think I knew or were shot. I think I thought Season Two for some reason was in Texas, but that's probably just because I saw something about season three on Instagram because I followed the director Dallas Jenkins on Instagram. And he's always posting stuff about where they're at. And so I think I just saw something where they were in Dallas, or maybe because his name is Dallas. I thought that everything was just in Dallas. That's a good one. Oh, geez. Okay, sorry folks. We had a little bit of a technical glitch. I think the headphones I had David using are bad. And I thought I'd got rid of my bad headphones but anyway, here we are. We're back. We're back. We're live and we're recording technically not live so what I was saying is I have like this website the synopsis place so it has all of the I have episode one the different things that happened in episode one so I can kind of think through I was looking through this yesterday. I know you already have some notes, but I just thought we would start with season one. So I'm just I'm just remembering like yeah, firing it up and just immediately being like, wow, like the cinematography is good. The music's good. And I was pretty much immediately hooked. So if you can remember the episode one does a really good job of like enjoying a lot of different characters in a really interesting way. So I love how in episode one, they open with just it's it's nighttime, it's this little girl, it's her dad, there's a tent, so they don't even have like a home and she's afraid I think she You said she's afraid of the dark, essentially. And then her dad's I think he hands her the doll or she has the doll. Yep. And then he's like, What do we say? And then he, he quotes Isaiah, Isaiah 43, which says, Thus says the Lord who created you, oh, Jacob, and he who formed you, oh is real fear not for I have redeemed you, I have called you by name, you are mine. And she keeps that verse in her little doll. And then if you remember, like, immediately after that, like seeing the very next scene is essentially her dad dying of something. And then it cuts to several years later, when this little girl is all grown up, and she's in a city, and she's not having the best of times. What are your memories of of that opening?
David Eckl 10:41
Yeah. So I like from the start, it seems like every single episode is a chance to say and be who is that? Like? Who like who is this little girl? And like, how many people are in the Bible? Hundreds or 1000s of people? And it's like, Wait, who is this one person? And who are they jumping in with? I do remember. I believe it was Mary. Right. And Mary, at a very young age, what we'll see in the next couple of episodes in terms of what she is going to become and then turn into but seen from the start her I don't know just innocence and who she was and just kind of like holding on to something special. I think a lot of times a lot of people have that one special thing that they kind of hold on to a doll, a bear a blanket, that being passed down to her and her holding on to that thing I feel like was just a quick kinda like, what is that? And that really from the start season one episode one like yeah, really captivates the audience and says, Okay, well, what is that? And even see, you know, the Isaiah 59 written on it. It's like, Okay, that's interesting. So, I don't know, that just kind of jumped right into it from the start for me where it's like, what is that? Yeah, kind of follow along. And every single episode that you watch really is either a flashback, or some kind of fast forward to what's going to be talked about any episode and kind of ties back to it later in the episode. So yeah, I think what we see initially we'll, we'll get to that, but we'll come back into that picture eventually.
Lance Foulis 12:12
Yeah, I that's a really good way to put put it when you were saying like, how, like, a lot of times they start an episode. And you don't know, it's these new characters that you haven't seen yet. Even like in later episodes, it won't start with the characters that you've known. It'll be like a brand new character, and they're doing something you're like, What are they doing? And then, and then it clicks at some point, because they go through and they're doing what they're doing. And all of a sudden, it's like, Oh, this isn't even like Jesus's time. This is this Jacob, right? Oh, that's Jacob and his sons. Oh, that's what they're doing. And like, that's just so fascinating how they do that almost like, I think last, the TV series last was the first one that I can remember that would jump around time, like that. But yeah, like how I liked how it opens. And then it's like this little girl on you're like, I don't know who this is. She's got a dad. She's living in a tent. She has this doll. They know God. So clearly, this must be an Israelite, right? But I don't know who this is. This isn't Jesus. Because it's a little girl.
David Eckl 13:13
I like it. Yeah, it for me. I think the context like it would be it would feel off if there was like a context to say, here's what this is. And here's the time. And here's the story. It gives me that sense of okay, what is this and trying to think through the entire Bible? Like, okay, what are they talking about from this first episode? Now watching it over again? I, I know what they're talking about. But it gives that kind of, okay, what is this? Exactly? And where are they in the Bible? And what is the story showing us?
Lance Foulis 13:44
Yeah, it's like, it's like, it's a really interesting way to take it creatively. Because instead of, if they like, opened with a paragraph to place you where you are with who you are, instead of doing that what they're doing is they're just letting you be a fly on the wall. Right and experience what's going on and like, yeah, so I liked how they set that up. And when we say its merits, it wasn't, I mean, spoiler alert, this has been out for a while. So if you're listening to this, you know, pause it and go watch the first season or the first episode and then so we don't spoil anything for you. But the Mary that it is actually Mary Magdalene, so it's not like Mary Jesus's mom. So super interesting that that's the character that they introduced, introduced us with, it was intentional. I'll just say that it was intentional that we start with her. And then the next scene that they have here is with Nicodemus, you so you there's somebody traveling along the road, and he's wearing a nice outfit, he's got a girl, clearly his wife that he's traveling with, and he's got like priestly garments on and then Romans show up like Romans with armor and everything show up and they're basically the Romans are coming to tell him we don't know who this guy is yet, but he seems to be an importer. are in person. So the Roman guard is basically like, hey, people are fishing when they shouldn't be fishing and we're not getting taxes. Is that basically the setup? I believe so? Yeah. Because it's like, we need our taxes, and they're fishing when you people aren't supposed to do any work. And we're not getting taxes for that. So you need to, you need to make us put a stop to this. And that guy, he's a little bit like, I don't do your work, and they're like, well, you're going to anyway, so that's what I remember. Is that what you remember?
David Eckl 15:26
Yeah, Nicodemus is a he's an important character in the full season one, like looking at it and really seen him from the start, you know, he is of importance with when they're riding, I believe it was horse and chariot like he is sitting like a king. And his role, what you'll see throughout the entire season one and season two, actually is is very important, but just to hear what he has to say and how he handles certain things he's getting he's got a little bit of some intrigue to him about what's going on. And understanding okay, something's something's up. Like he seems like there's something going on. And just in that early episode, and that early interaction with the Romans, something's not right. There's some something missing there that keeps intriguing you Yes. Okay. What is okay, what's going on here? Yeah. Yeah, that was a good, that was a good start. I really liked that. Start to add to see Nicodemus and what he eventually will do, and how he meets Jesus and talks to him. And that's tough. So you can kind of see right away this is kind of getting into the story of Jesus and what is going to come?
Lance Foulis 16:42
Yeah, yeah, it's this show does a really good job of getting you invested not just in a singular character, but like, it sets up like a full story of like so many individual characters, and they're all very, very, very unique. Yes. And they all are drawn to this guy, Jesus, for very different reasons, yet kind of the saint, it's how they do that is really, really, really well done. And by the way, I always do this whenever I'm watching something, if I see if I see an actor, I'm like, oh, what else have I seen him in? So the guy that plays Nicodemus, his the actor's name is Erick Avari, who's actually a fairly well known actor. He was in like the first scene of Independence Day, he's the guy that wakes up and hits his head on a thing because somebody wakes him up, and he's monitoring for alien activity. First time I saw this actor was in actually Stargate. He plays like the main guy in the movie Stargate, sorry, the chief of like the locals. He's like the chief or the locals. So anyway, they got a that was that was one of the I don't think I recognized any of the other actors in this series. But I did recognize him. So I just wanted to call that out. Okay, so the next is there anything else you want to say about that scene? Good to go. Okay. All right. Then the next scene, we are introduced to Matthew, a tax collector. He's an Israelite, but he collects taxes for the Romans. And he is the actor that plays. Matthew is Paris Patel. And he's an Outstanding Actor in this role. Do you remember that? You remember that scene.
David Eckl 18:19
Matthew is interesting, from the direction that he plays in this first off in the Bible, but then also in this series, just about where he comes from, and where it he is doing and how he goes about himself is interesting, because he's, he's truly unlike anyone else. Because everyone doesn't like him. Yeah. So any, we get into it with throughout the seasons, and the series is of how he kind of handles himself. But in this situation, we see him early about what he is going to be doing and what he is called to do. And I remember in kind of that first episode that Matthews just kind of, he's a little different. Yeah. And how he handles himself and seeing that i He's another one of those characters. That's like we now in been introduced to three characters already tuned. Mary, Nicodemus and Matthew, they all have this interesting type of thing to him. Yeah. And it's another one of those notches that's like, Okay, what is this and what's going on? Let's find out more about what they're about. Obviously, when you introduce a tax collector into this series, that it's going to obviously interrupt throw people off because it's someone that a lot of people don't like, and it kind of creates that maybe a bad character right off the right off the bat, like, yeah, why is this guy collecting taxes? Let's not show about him, but he was just as important to Jesus as anyone else. So yeah, it was early on he kind of get that feel for who he is and what he's gonna. What he's going to be for the for the show.
Lance Foulis 19:59
Yeah. So like in the scene, he's like, on his way to his work, and he can't take a direct route, because that would put could put him at danger because like you said, a tax collector is not a very liked individual, they're collecting taxes for Rome, I think historically, they were known to, you know, maybe make people pay a little bit more than what they had to pay. And they would kind of take a little extra for themselves. So they were kind of like, despise and especially if, if you're an Israelite, which Matthew is, your all Israelites are subject under Rome right now. And he's working for, quote, the enemy. Because you're, you're under the you're under the rule of Rome, but you're your own ethnic group. And the fact that you're collecting taxes for the Romans, but you're actually an Israelite, there's, like, inherent levels of feelings of betrayal that we get into, obviously, but just the fact that he's very isolated kind of individual, he seems to like it first. But he seems to also not be happy about it. And just the nature of him not even being able to take a direct route to work and having almost smuggle himself. And then he gets there. And then that's when he has protection, because there's Roman guards there to kind of keep him safe, right, which we find out later. Well, we'll get to it.
David Eckl 21:16
But even like in that's in that first scene, when he's going to work, what you see about him is he is trying to be as clean as possible. I think he thinks everyone else is dirty, you always see kind of not touching things, or just kind of being a little standoffish. And it's like, Okay, what's going on here? Like, do you not, you know, he is is or like, you not associate with these people? Yeah, because you are now the tax collector. It's, it is interesting.
Lance Foulis 21:47
That just that reminds me because I think in the opening scene is when he's at his house, right? Yes. And he's like, got like a whole plate of food, like nice food, what you probably consider nice food. He's like dabbing, like, oils on himself or whatever to smell good. And then he puts on these really nice looking leather sandals, which he then proceeds to step in, poop. And then he, alright, we had a little bit of a hiccup there. I just caught it out of corner, my eye it stopped recording. So now we're recording again. So I think what I was just saying is like, this guy, Matthew, the character that we're introduced to, he's got his own. He has a backup pair of sandals. And you can kind of I got the sense that nobody says anything. But like, Oh, those are probably extra expensive sandals. These are like some Nike, you know, Jordan whatever's Yes, they
David Eckl 22:33
are. They are not, they are not the Old Navy $5 Summer sandal. These are not that
Lance Foulis 22:40
these are not those sandals. Yeah, they're just like that these are be super expensive. And not the the average person couldn't have it. And then he goes, and he walks steps in some poop. And he immediately has a backup pair that he can replace. And there's even that character that is he gets into the back of the guy's wagon, but the character is like, Oh, you're throwing those away, because you stepped in poop, give them to me that I could sell them and feed my family for a month. He said something like that. So we can tell that Matthew is very wealthy? He has. I don't know, he has a status type job. And he's just in a comfortable type position, I guess I would say
David Eckl 23:15
He is very young. It's a good point of his age and might not be the wisest to make the decision will spoiler it also later on, you'll see with his parents, his parents don't agree with him being a tax collector, right at all. So I think he is a little young and immature in the fact that he chose this route for his life. Yeah. And he's kind of going about it on his own. Yeah, to figure things out.
Lance Foulis 23:42
Yep. Yeah, that's good. All right. And then we go the next scene, it takes us back to Nicodemus, who has arrived at a synagogue and we basically, then it basically shows us how important he is. Because when he arrives at the synagogue, all of the people in the synagogue had been waiting for him to arrive. And basically, they start calling him like the Teacher of teachers. He's just you get a sense, like, this isn't just some random priestly guy. This isn't just some random Pharisee. Like this is somebody who's really high up there on whatever this hierarchy is. Do you have any thoughts about that scene?
David Eckl 24:19
Just that you see, especially in the synagogue, you see early on the tradition and the history of what faith meant to people. And it was the history of Nicodemus being what they called him the teacher.
Lance Foulis 24:34
All right, another technical issue, but we are back. Okay, we were talking you were talking about the Teacher of teachers.
David Eckl 24:41
Nicodemus being the Teacher of teachers. And what we had talked about was him being that to so many people, at that certain time that whenever he would go someplace he had that respect for everyone else, or that everyone else had would have the respect for him and he would, everyone would look at him as a And person in that day because that's all they had to go for because of his faith at that time. So it was a very important person in the early go of this and what people's faith was at that time.
Lance Foulis 25:15
Yeah. Yeah, that's good. I was I was kind of blown away because they had prepared a reading room for him. And so he gets in, and like everything set up where he's going to be reading what scrolls he's got, they have the pen thing that that so like, they have this thing that looks like a pen. And it's like, when they read, they're moving this thing along each word. So they're not actually writing anything, but it's like an instrument that they use when they actually read, which was wild. So they're like, is everything set, you know, to your standards? I think they had like some snacks there. And he's like, Yeah, that's fine, thank you. But I was just like, man, person arrives and like you have your own reading area set up and all of these very particular things like that's some that's some level of status, for sure. Okay, and then I one thing that's important to point out about this particular scene is that when it ends, a Roman shows up and proceeds to usher himself into this room, which is apparently like a no, no kind of disrespectful, and they're like, well, like all the other guys are like, What are you doing? You can't just walk in here? And he's like, Yes, I actually can. Thank you. And that's when the Romans are like to Nicodemus the character, like, we have a problem. There's a demon possessed person there. There was another scene, I think, that we had had where it flashes back to Mary and she's having some major issues. She actually sees. She sees a Rome and I think, and then she has a flashback, of of like earlier on, and it's just a silhouette of a Roman soldier coming into the room where she's at shutting the door, and you can infer what happened to her. She was a victim at that point. And then when she has that memory, she's having that memory from seeing a Roman in real time. And then like is messing with her? Like she you can just tell she's in a real turmoil, and then Then she's having issues in a room. Did I miss anything? You did not
David Eckl 27:17
the one character I was gonna bring up in, really the start of it that will see important throughout everything is Schmell. Oh, yeah, shimmy. Well, Chanel, Chanel, like just the name of it. It's like, Who is this? Yeah, who is he? He I believe the guy was like, set up the room, right? Yes. And he was, I believe the right hand man to Nicodemus, that sounds right. Yeah, he was almost the next in line. And it does definitely the sense that you get it and yes, and there's something particular about him that was interesting, where he was, okay, what's going on? Like another one of those characters that's like, Okay, we have Mary, who is in this state of turmoil, turmoil. And then you have Roman guards, you have Matthew, and just one of those people that were keeping track of that. I mean, I've read the Bible, pretty much in my entire life. I haven't heard of him before, right in the Bible. So another a character that was, I believe, in the book, but also important in this to show kind of who Nicodemus is, and give them that support to what he's going to do.
Lance Foulis 28:19
Yeah. Did you know when you say like you would read? Do you remember anybody named schmo shimmy? Well, in the Bible, not to my knowledge. Yeah, me either. But that's one cool thing about I think the series is that it introduces, it introduces characters that fit in in the world, and bring it more to life, I think. But yeah, he's a very interesting character, because your mind knows like, I'm cutting the track with this person. And you don't know why. But yeah, the show does a really good job of that. I think, like, oh, I need to need to pay attention to this guy is like as soon as Nicodemus arrives, this character from UL is like, Oh, I'm so glad that you're here. I've set up this room for you and like yelling at the Roman guard, you're not allowed in here. And then so one funny thing that happens when we're kind of all over the place, but it is what it is. When the Roman guard or when the Roman soldier shows up and they're like Nicodemus, you need to go down to the red quarter because there's somebody who's having a demon possessed situation and we can't have it. And he's taught. I don't think we know but you could probably have inferred it. They're talking about Mary Mary's having a severe issue. Some kind of demon possession type of a thing is what they're alluding to. And Nicodemus Nicodemus, his response is like, I don't, I don't deal with affairs of Rome, that's you need to deal with that. And then the Roman soldier is like, what did he say? He said something like you need to go take care of it. Your Way or or Rome will take care of it with our fire of fires. I don't remember what he said like before he said fires of fires, but that was hilarious because he basically was like, he asked nicely the first time then Nicodemus was like, No, that's Rome's problem. And then he's like, Well, Oh, you're actually going to do it, or we're going to just go down and destroy the place.
David Eckl 30:04
It's, it was an interesting scene, quote unquote, where he went to go do that. Like he did not want to go down this Yeah. Or they can Amos did not want to do that.
Lance Foulis 30:15
Yeah, it's a super it's so like, you definitely get the sense in this scene that it's a very edgy, not great area of town is the place that you don't want to go visit. You're not safe there. All of the deplorables are there. So this this high up guy wants nothing to do with going to that area of town.
David Eckl 30:36
Right? Yeah, it is. It's going to be an interesting scene in it to see that someone that was possessed to being that taking out of them of what's to come there. Yeah. It's not an area that he wanted to go to but their own. The only true way for her to come out of that was for Nicodemus to go down there. Interesting that the Roman guard would say, hey, like, you need to take care of it instead of us. Because you would think with someone being possessed, you would probably choose the fire fires for them rather than saying, hey, Nicodemus, you need to go take care of them. Yeah. And then have that come out of her?
Lance Foulis 31:16
Yeah, yeah. So yeah, it was a very, very, very interesting scene. So like, obviously, once that scene is over, it cuts from Nicodemus his storyline, essentially over to two brothers. So the next thing we're introduced to Simon Peter, and his brother, Andrew, and what are they doing?
David Eckl 31:38
They are, were they fishing, they
Lance Foulis 31:41
are gambling. They were in they were using, they were fighting. Simon Peter was like, basically in a boxing street match with this other guy who we find out later is his brother in law. And they're basically gambling and betting on Simon. They don't explain the rules. But basically, Simon is getting just punched around. And you kind of figure out that he's, he's playing the game. He's not really as hurt as he's letting on. He's not almost done, as he's letting on. And his brother Andrew is like looking on telling him you got to take another punch. And then Sam Peters, like, I don't want to take another one. And then his brother Andrew is like no, like, it's all like signals, right? Nobody's saying anything. They're just making looks at each other. And then he's like, No, you gotta take another one. So then he takes another punch. And he's acting like super hurt. Simon Peter is acting like he's super hurt. He's not called Simon Peter yet. He's just called Simon. And and then he like, Does this really cool hop, kicks himself up onto his feet after something apparently went the right way. And then he starts beating the tar out of the other guy. So Simon all of a sudden flips the tables, and is clearly not as hurt he said he had seemed to be and then he beats down the other guy who's his brother in law, which I don't even know if it reveals that. I don't think so. Any any thoughts on on on that?
David Eckl 33:03
Interesting that fighting is something that's prevalent in the day and age and everything that's going on, obviously, it's another one of those things where we were introduced to Mary first now Nicodemus, and then when we're introduced to Matthew, and now we're introduced to more disciples of Christ, and you see that and like, what they're going to become for Jesus, and like, in the fighting aspect of it for me, I was like, okay, like, this is interesting. I'm not too much into fighting. Like, I don't like to watch it, you know, but I understand back then, obviously, it was some hobby that people enjoy doing. And they would
Lance Foulis 33:44
was a form of entertainment when you didn't have a TV, no TV or watch a couple of days.
David Eckl 33:48
Exactly. each other. Exactly. And they would gamble on it. And that was the afternoon of fun when they weren't working. It was it was interesting.
Lance Foulis 33:56
Yeah. Yeah. And I also like thinking about overall how they do the TV show. Like if you've if, if you have been and like, I grew up in the church, I grew up reading my Bible. Well, actually, I didn't really start reading my Bible until I was older. I thought it was boring. But in reading the Bible in, you know, if you've gone to Sunday school, you've heard stories, you know, Peter, he's like, he's a top tier character and your brightness if you know the story of the Bible, Andrew, not so much a top tier character, but still an important character Jesus top to your character, Nicodemus. Now, I don't even know if he's literally mentioned in the Bible. He is He is maybe once or twice, okay, so he's a real character. Yes. And then Mary Magdalene, she is as well, but again, not a key character, Matthew, I don't really remember reading. I mean, he wrote one of the books in the Bible, but I don't really remember noticing him is a character that had a bunch of stories in the Bible. And what's interesting about this, this series is they don't, they don't start you off with a character writers that you're expecting like, Oh, it's a story about Jesus, we still haven't seen Jesus yet. And we're like, what three or four scenes in still haven't met Jesus don't know where he is. Don't know who he is. Maybe we have seen him, we don't know. And then finally, now we're just getting introduced to somebody that people that know the story of the Bible, they would know. Oh, Peter, I know who Peter is. His name was his name was Simon. So he's not the first character Mary is the first character, which is really fascinating to me. Okay, so basically, we get the sense that Simon is maybe not your he he may be isn't your the role model that you would want your kids to model themselves after he's gambling, he's fighting, trying to get money. And we realized, I don't remember if we realize in the scene, but basically, they need money. So they're trying to figure out how to make money because they haven't been making enough money fishing. And then we find out that Peter is married, which I think was a very fascinating take. I don't personally have any theories on whether or not he was actually married, except for I was reading mark the other night. And it did say, talk about his mother in law was sick, and that Jesus healed his mother and see that so if he has a mother in law, and again, I don't know the actual Hebrew of the book of Mark, but I remember reading that it's a mother in law, not his mother. So did you have any? What did you think when you saw Peter is married and his wife's name is Eden
David Eckl 36:30
Simon is a very interesting character in this, you know, there's something about him when you're watching just kind of funny,
Lance Foulis 36:38
witty, yes, he good humor,
David Eckl 36:41
yes, has good humor, something about him. And when you go into the scene initially, like with him fighting, and then finding out he has a wife, there's some kind of, I don't know, sleight, I would say in terms of what he is doing and trying to do and get, you know, obviously, money to be able to pay taxes to be able to live to be able to do certain things. So he's trying to find all these different routes to take to be able to do something. Especially Andrew mean, his brother's a little bit, I would say, a little bit more wise, in terms of just is nature. But Simon is, is an interesting character, I think he's going to be great. And it's like, you would never have pictured if this was the first time you're watching or reading or following along with this. And you have no history of the Bible, or what it's talking about. The people that are starting to come into the scene. I don't think anyone would have an idea that they're all going to be together. Yeah, at some point. You know, it's like, way these stories,
Lance Foulis 37:44
Jesus is gonna pick all these people to be in his troop. Yeah. See that? Because they're all two different.
David Eckl 37:49
Yes. All different corners, the high levels, low levels, fighting people demon possessed. Simon is an interesting one, especially Andrew, and this.
Lance Foulis 38:00
Yeah. And just like all the other characters that we've mentioned, they're all all of the actors are fantastic. And Paris Patel, like we were saying is, is who plays Matthew, I've never seen him in anything before. Shahar. Isaac is who plays Simon and he is super ripped. Yes, super ripped. And he's a fantastic actor. And I didn't think of this until you were kind of talking about it. But are you we're talking about Simon and Andrew but they have really great chemistry. Like you totally can believe that. They're brothers the way that they get they're very different. And just how they interact with each other is very brotherly. Which I guess you would expect but it's it's well done to their
David Eckl 38:41
jobs in nature of being fishermen. Like you need to be very muscular you need to have a lot of I would say mind power but also that body power to be able to take these nets bringing all these fish you know do those kinds of things and do that I feel like getting your
Lance Foulis 38:59
fingers all caught up with those nets you probably have major calluses I mean, have you ever seen Deadliest Catch people? Did you ever see that show? Deadliest Catch? No. Oh my gosh, I was really into that show like I don't know how long ago but yeah, it's just these fishermen in Alaska that go out and like get crab and it's super dangerous like the weather can turn in an instant and yeah, so anyway,
David Eckl 39:21
but the net like there's no modern technology there's no hooks to be able to pull things in manually or automatically from the boats. It's your hands are out there. You're pulling in these fish you need to be very muscular and well fit to be able to withstand the days and you know, they're not just hanging out on the boat about getting suntan out the hair. They're right. They're working. You know, it is a working man's job and that is something that is very important to see. Yeah, in the visual of that too. I you know, you resonate a little bit with that, that they are relentless in their efforts to find a wage to support your family to support your why If Yeah, the mother in law for assignment isn't sick yet we don't see her right sick that will come eventually. But to be able to provide for the family is huge in this situation in this instance. So yep, I feel like he's going to all ends to figure out how we can bring in money for that.
Lance Foulis 40:15
Yep. And like, it is really interesting when you meet Eden, you can see like, Oh, this is Simon's house, this is his wife, you get the sense that they're really young, like, like, in in that culture, you've alluded to this, but in that culture, you're the guy, you're out there and you gotta you got to do what you got to do to bring in provision. And if you don't do it, you and your wife starve your wife is home, taking care of things, getting food ready, taking care of the house, so that the house stays in order. But I just remember, I don't remember if it was this scene, but just kind of like the scenes that that we have with Peter, or excuse me with Simon and Eden, is just his, the burden, you can see the burden that he's carrying in need wanting to take care of his wife, and there's even like, Andrews around, he's doing stuff too. But you could you just get this set. I got this sense watching Peter. He's, it felt to me like he's more newly married, maybe a year, maybe two years or whatever. But like, he's just got this burden of responsibility on him. Like, I've got to take care of stuff. And I just feel that way. And I remember being young and married Kim, I was 25. When Kim and I got married, she was 21. I did not have an established career, but I can remember the burden of like, I need to be able to provide for my family. And like when things aren't going well. I can remember many times when things wouldn't go well. And it just seems like things aren't going right. And so just I just remember getting this set, getting that sense and feeling for Peter, especially as we get to know him like, things aren't easy. I can kind of see why he's making decisions that he's making that I wouldn't necessarily make. But he is under like a level of duress. Did you get any feelings like that?
David Eckl 41:59
Yeah, so Eden is very much so a character a person that is really being forward in terms of how she's, you know, trying to be a wife to Simon and I think, especially the scenes I know what you're talking about, like where you're seeing her, you know, make food she's doing the laundry, she's cleaning up the house, you know, Simon's a lot of times I think I remember vividly and there is that Eden, said to said to her was there said to him said, Well, you know, where are you going? He's like, I gotta go, I'll be back. And like one of the things like he's going to do something to either make money to do something for fishing, but he's trying to figure it out where the responsibility now isn't just on his own. It's to provide for his family. Yeah. And seeing that was was key too.
Lance Foulis 42:51
Yeah. So okay, so the next scene, we actually go back to Nicodemus and he is traveling through the seedy area of town. They call it the red quarter. It's where unsavory characters are, and they're walking around I think it's just funny because you got Nicodemus I think she she Manuel's like, to your point before he's like, right behind them right hand guy, I'm putting that in quotes. And there's like two or three other these guys, you can just tell they're incredibly out of their element. They're very uncomfortable, I think they see either prostitutes, or slaves or slaves that are prostitutes, like on the corner on the corner of the street. I'm putting that in quotes. Because it's, it's there's an image that happens and you just see them kind of look and make eye contact. When you see Nicodemus and his cohorts making eye contact with this scene, where these people are either getting sold or they're they're standing on a corner waiting to be purchased or something like that. You can just tell Oh, no, I need to avert my eyes. I shouldn't even be seeing what I'm seeing and they're traveling to go deal with this situation. And then when they get close to it, they have the audio of what we assume is Mary because there's a room or like I guess what we could call an apartment and you can just hear growling wailing very just noises that make you feel something's very very off
David Eckl 44:22
very uneasy, very uneasy. Yes. And even going into it it's I mean, you don't there's no other show or series that you would see something like this being talked about or shown like it's not something you would watch on TV it's very much you know, she was demon possessed. And hearing those things it's like what is going on here like you know, you're intrigued to find out more you want to keep watching you don't want to like turn away you want you want to see what she might be going through and what this Nicodemus who, besides the Roman guards potentially As the top guy, you know, in the city, the Teacher of teachers coming in to treating probably one of the lowest type of people in the city. Yep. And having an interaction where it's, this doesn't happen too often. Right? Let's watch it. Let's get into it.
Lance Foulis 45:17
Yeah, absolutely. And you can tell I mean, they do a really good job of setting up like, okay, something is really like you're hearing these noises that are coming from that room and you're like, Okay, this is actually very serious. And this guy, yeah, should be able to do something in this situation, but he doesn't look like he's not inspiring a whole lot of confidence in what he's going to do. But then he kind of takes charge he goes, he looks to his dude Shmi well, and he basically is like, go get these ingredients, some kind of bark and some kind of incense thing and like, go get it quickly. And so that guy runs off come back and then he's got like, nicotine has has like, some branches I think with some things that he's got like an incense thing. So it's like smoking out. So So it's basically like a chain. And at the end of the chain is like a big, I don't know, bowl type of enclosed bowl thing and there's smoke coming out. So there's some kind of hot coals in there. This like burning something is making smoke and so then he goes in, he's got his, quote tools, his exorcism tools, and he goes into the room. And they made this part like, pretty, pretty scary. In my opinion, it was a little bit more, they pushed, they pushed an edge that like kind of what you said earlier, you wouldn't see the type of a thing in any kind of Christian type production. I wouldn't expect they're not pulling any punches. It's like yes, this lady is in severe torment. And it's a it's a demonic possession. And she's just kind of like moving around on the floor you don't see her face it's just the back of the face and then it comes to the point he's like talking and like the her like the stuff that's coming I have no not even say like her voice because it's not her voice it's like what the noises are coming out of her vocal cords are changing and getting more intense and then she like turns to look at him as he's like saying the stuff that he's saying he's like I juror you get out leave this woman alone. And like then it like her face turns to look at them. And the way that they did that was wow, I was really on the edge of my seat. What are your thoughts? This
David Eckl 47:32
like the story is in the Bible, so it is true. And I like initially you said that you watched it with your kids this
Lance Foulis 47:41
Oh, we didn't watch this scene with the kid. Okay, okay. Well, that's all day would have nightmares for a while
David Eckl 47:45
because I don't know how they would be able to do it. But I think
Lance Foulis 47:49
it was the episode The next step or three episode three which is with the kids that's the one episode they've seen
David Eckl 47:54
the what we initially talked about to the theatrics of it yes show. You know that look, and I do vividly remember that image of Mary looking at Nicodemus in what is going on is scary. Yeah, like it is very much like anything could happen. Yeah, Ines. But also at the same time, it's one of those things that keeps you coming back for more. Yeah, this demon possessed person Mary is now changing. It's coming out of her in some way. Yeah, she is going to change and do something else. And it's like, we had no other history or story of Mary at the start of this other than when she was with her dad initially. Yep. And then she young innocent kid. Exactly. And then she goes into this state over after years of torment to be able to get to this and now it's going to be a massive change to be in doing something to glorify, what's to come and that's just amazing. Yes. And I know Nicodemus in the future in this story to it, he goes into talking a little bit more about you know, what he saw there? And what he had to go through and I mean, that's just one of those notches on the belt or it's like wait, you went and faced a demon possessed person and said these things and we're in that room? I just couldn't believe what it would be like no real time outside of shooting this for the for the show, but it just unbelievable.
Lance Foulis 49:19
Yeah, like the fact that he even had the courage to go into the room is wild because if I encountered something like that in real life one I wouldn't know what to do and to just you don't know what you're gonna face when you get in there and you're trying to do something like he went in there and Elise tried Now obviously, like it failed, because the thing talked through Mary like after she is basically like, what did what did what did it say these like, we don't know you or we don't care essentially, like we're not listening to you. We don't have to listen to you. Like get out of here. We're done with you. And then he is like, just shocked and basically he just leaves in And she's not okay. And then that's that's basically the end of the scene. Yeah. It was, it was a very intense scene. Any other thoughts there?
David Eckl 50:09
I don't know how Nicodemus like he was obviously told to do it. He was going to save this, Mary, you know, he didn't know what was going to come out of it, he was going to give it his best effort to being able to healer. And has just like, that's the reality of it. Some people have that still today. And it's even seeing that how he had dealt with it was just for me, it was It was eye opening, because I'd never seen that before. In anything. Yeah. And reading it. In the Bible, you don't get that kind of context of what the video or picture of it would, would be able to show you.
Lance Foulis 50:48
Yeah, it's one thing to read in the Bible that this, you know, so and so is demon possessed, and the demons would throw him on the ground. And he would convulse for a few minutes. Like, it's like, you read that and you don't go okay. But then when you see it portrayed like that, they did it in this were like this individuals in torment, and they're, they can't do anything to help themselves in that situation is very eerie and freaky. And yeah, eye opening. I think you said that.
David Eckl 51:14
It's not like you have the popcorn bowl right next to and you're grabbing it to eat more of it. You're like, not blinking. eyes focused? Yeah, every single second of it. And it's like, wait, what? Like, this is going to come out of this person, and she's going to be completely different. It's like, what,
Lance Foulis 51:32
how do we get there? Yeah. How in the world are we going to get there? Yeah. One thing to call out here, because like her name, and my little like, website here, we know her as Lillith right now, we haven't made the connection that it's Mary. It's good point. Because that's a that's a very important thing is that we know this individual that her name is Lilith, and we don't know anything else about her other than what we've described, but nobody's called her Mary in this point. Sure. Because that's a very important thing for the close of the episode we're getting to so anyway, basically, that after Nicodemus leaves, some time passes, and then we find Lilith waking up. And she wakes up. This is important because she she has like a flashback of being with her father. And I think in this scene, yeah, she gets her she finds her doll. And like in the doll is the piece of paper she pulls out and it's the that scripture from Isaiah and so she's kept it this whole time, is she's looking at it now after having gone through this episode. And you can kind of tell like, this has happened to her before. She's just so done. I'm so sick of having to go through this stuff like can't anything like no nothing can and then she I think she rips up the piece of paper, which is a very like intense like, she had been carrying it this whole time. So whatever breaking point she is, she's at it is an intense breaking point, because she's taken this thing that she's kept with her, essentially came from her father cheese destroying it was a very intense scene,
David Eckl 53:03
very intense, especially something now you've had for that many years. And then you've gotten to that breaking point to be able to do that it's eye opening to see that and I remember, even in future episodes, she ends up reciting that verse from from memorization. So it's something that she still has in her heart that she's living with. But the symbolism of her taking that piece of paper and tearing it up seems like you know, there's a breaking point that she just had to kind of forget that maybe the past that she just went through a page turned to what's going to come.
Lance Foulis 53:37
Yep, that's good. All right. And so then we go back to last, these are the basically the last couple scenes here. We'll go through these kind of quickly. So it's tax day, and people are going to the tax booth to pay their taxes. So we are we witness Andrew and Simon going to the tax booth where Matthew is Matthew is revealed to be their tax collector, and they get there and they basically figure out that because of back taxes and everything else that they owe way more than they are Andrew was way more than they thought and Andrew cannot pay his taxes. And he's at the point, okay, we can't pay your taxes, you're gonna go to jail. Because if you couldn't pay your taxes, then you got thrown in jail where you would never be able to pay your taxes. So you basically that's it, you're you're done your life's over. And then that's when Simon tells Matthew and reveals, hey, I've got a I have an agreement with the main Roman magistrate and the magistrate. I was looking this up yesterday. I should have had this up on my on my iPad here. But a magistrate is somebody who has like pretty extensive authority. right in line with Caesar. So Simon is basically saying he has an arrangement on his taxes and Andrews taxes with the magistrate Quintus Who was the guy who was bossing Nicodemus around at the beginning of the episode and So he's basically telling Matthew Hey, you know, we don't, we won't be owing taxes because of the arrangement. Once I'm done with what I'm doing for Quintus all my taxes and all Andrews taxes will be done. And Matthew being Matthew, he doesn't believe them. Because Matthew is like, no, like you're not trustworthy, it just something doesn't make sense. There's no way you could have made this arrangement. So he doesn't believe him. But that's essentially where that scene ends. Did you have any thoughts there?
David Eckl 55:24
The image I have from that Matthew, collecting taxes right outside of it is the Roman guard. standing there like kind of just making sure everything's kind of going to order is yes, yeah. And guys is when he hears Andrew and Simon talk, he's like, something's not right with these guys. Something's up. So
Lance Foulis 55:41
it's kind of side looking like what's going on over there?
David Eckl 55:44
Yes. and Canada. He is Gaius is Matthews kind of guard to go take him around to places and they chose to create an interesting relationship over time, but like, Matthew is truly protected because of Gaius. But also in this scene, it's interesting to see like, where you pay taxes it's not like you know, they're taken out of your paycheck you know, you're surely going to this huddle, you
Lance Foulis 56:08
have to show up with your your funds in hand. Yes. And pay it stop what you're doing. No, you cannot go work during this time. You have to show up and you have to bring your taxes and if you don't do it, you're gonna be in a world of hurt. Yes.
David Eckl 56:20
Pay what to Caesar. What is Caesar's,
Lance Foulis 56:22
again, like just the feeling that you get, it's just the burden on these people to do what? To pay their taxes to do what they need to do. It's just the burden feels very heavy. As you're as you're watching it.
David Eckl 56:35
It'd be interesting. If that was today, though. Yeah. When I was thinking about it, like, how would you put yourself in their shoes, like you get your paycheck today, but every month, you have to go to this hut? Stand in line, and pay it?
Lance Foulis 56:49
Yeah, cuz right now, dude, like, we don't have to see how much taxes are coming out of our paycheck. Yeah, we just get our direct deposit and, and then every time you look at your, your, your check in, you're like, wait, you took how much? My paycheck would have been? What? So like, it is kind of funny that to your point is like, they have to like show up and like, here's my taxes. And it's not like you're getting anything. I mean, technically you're, I guess not getting invaded by barbarians or whatever. But
David Eckl 57:17
yeah, that's the ledger. Lance, is kind of
Lance Foulis 57:21
in front of everybody, right? Like, you'd have to go to this tax person. And they clearly have an idea who Matthew is. He's an Israelite, and he's telling them you have this Oh, and because you didn't pay here, and he's doing like math. And you remember, he's like doing math in his head with his fingers. So you can tell like, he's very gifted with numbers. But this guy is basically telling you like, no, that's not enough. What you just brought isn't enough, you need that. So like you're already like, in a state of humility. Like in that situation, the other guy wins. Because what are you going to do? You can't argue in this situation,
David Eckl 57:51
maybe I'm okay with how taxes are taken. The moral of the story is, but I'll a lot of times in this, I put myself and my myself in the shoes of what these people had to go through back in the day. And yeah, this is a situation where I would be like, I don't really want to do that. Yeah, but obviously, systems change and all this stuff. And obviously, it's not, it's not how it's done today, here. But a lot of times in this whole situation like what would you do if you were Nicodemus, would you have gone right and healed? Mary? Would you have said no rolling Roman guards? You take care of them? Yep. Interesting. Yes. Across the board.
Lance Foulis 58:31
Yes. 100%. Agreed. Yeah. And that's one good thing about there's so many different characters, and they are all relatable in some way. Matthew's state of security is very relatable, because like, he's, he's well fed. He's well, he has what he well clothed. He's got shoes on his feet, he's got a stable position. So like, that's relatable in the sense of like, what would it take for me to stop like, Where? Where are my morals? Where's my sense of? Yeah, Where's where's my moral sense? And like, what would need to be going on to where I would not choose the security that I'm having? I get that kind of feeling for Matthew, and then in with Simon and Andrew, it's like, oh, my gosh, like, how, how am I going to make it through this? How am I going to get the funds to pay and like, what I have to do whatever it takes, and I'm willing to do not necessarily whatever it takes, but I'm willing to do some things that I wouldn't necessarily be willing to do, but I have to do it. Otherwise, I'm sunk. So everybody's, there's just something relatable about every single character and I find myself in each kind of like what you were saying putting myself in their shoes and being like, oh, man, I kind of get like a real taste of what they're doing and why they're doing it. Yeah. So
David Eckl 59:45
what we first talked about, was about how they went to Nicodemus and said, there's people fishing on quote unquote, Shabbat, which we are now as the Sabbath day the rest and thank you Got that, like, would you if you needed to make ends meet? Would you go and fish on the Sabbath? To try to catch fish to be able to feed everyone and make ends meet? Would you do that, and it's just one of those situations that I was thinking about, it's like, maybe that's what it comes to, or else I have to go to jail. Like, at that point, it's like I'm at between a rock and a hard place. And I have to go do that, to make ends meet. So it's just one of those situations that, you know, other thing that I put myself in the shoes of the people, and it's, it's true, you know, that's what it is today. And that's what it is back then what it is today, it's like, you know, you have to make ends meet, you have to do whatever it takes to be able to provide for what we see in Simon and Eden, but also your family. And this is what Matthew is doing. I mean, the tax collector, you know, does he have to do this? I mean, that's what he wanted to do. And that's where he chose to do. Does he want to do it? I'm not sure.
Lance Foulis 1:00:55
Right. Right. That's yeah, that's great. Okay, the final scene, what an epic final scene this is. So basically, what ends up happening is we get we cut to Mary, again, we know her as Lillith. And she, I think she goes to a bar and she basically just drinks a bunch. And then the bartender who's a eunuch is basically like, he knows her called calling her Lola, this Lillith he has an idea of what's happened, you can kind of tell, and he's just trying to encourage her like, Hey, you're gonna be fine. You're gonna make it stay here as long as you like, eat this food. And she's like, No, what's the point? Like she's at, she's at, she's at rock bottom. She's at the end. And I can't remember if I've got this in the order. So correct me if you know, but I think I think that's what happens. And then she goes, or I have it in reverse. But basically, it might be reverse. She, I think she goes, Uh, yeah, I think she goes to the bar, and then she leaves the bar. And you can kind of tell that this bartender guy doesn't want her to leave, because he kind of has an idea that she might do something that he doesn't want her to do. And she just leaves anyway, she goes to a cliff edge, and she's ready to throw herself off the cliff. She's ready to just end it all. And then a dove flies by. And then she follows the duff. Do I have that right? Yeah. Is that what you remember?
David Eckl 1:02:18
Yes. And then she see Jesus. Is that where we introduced the Jesus at the end of this?
Lance Foulis 1:02:25
We Yeah, but it happens some other let me read this here following a suicide attempt. Lillith loses hope and her condition she notices the dove and falls all the way to the hammer, which is the bar that I was talking about. She enters the tavern. And she sits down she's like, give me a drink. And I don't remember if they fight or like if the gods like, I'm not giving you a drink, and then she's like, just give me a friggin drink. And then they pour the drink. And then she goes to take it and then as she goes to take it a hand comes like is placed on her hand. But had I right? Yes. Okay, so over top of Yeah, the hand was over the hand and then and then she's like, wait, what and she looks over. And then that's when we're in we don't know who it is. But the the facial features and everything is so well done by the actor that plays Jesus Jonathan Rooney. I looked up how to pronounce the last name it is Rumi ROUM. Ie unless the website I saw it was wrong. He but he said something like That's not for you. And then she starts one tell that happens with Lilith is like, if something is happening with this is this is my interpretation. It's not spelled out anytime. But she like sticks her fingers on her head because it's like she's getting like severe pain in the middle of her forehead. And so she'll like, have like, act like she just suddenly having a migraine, which to me is like, the demons inside of her are causing her torment. So like, it's almost like they know that the demons inside know who this person is. And then they start doing this, she starts doing this thing that she's done throughout the episode where she's holding on her forehead. You guys can't see me but I'm like acting it out. Like I have my hands on my forehead. And I'm like squinting, my eyes shut. And then she's just like, leave me alone. And then she walks out. And then as she's walking out, I think it cuts into like slow motion. It's epic cinematography, really, really well done. And then I'm pretty sure you just see Jesus in the background because it's her like, it's close up of her face, but you can kind of see behind her and you can see the guy that told her to, this isn't for you. He's standing in the doorway. And then he says Mary Wright? Yes. Mary Magdalene. Yeah, he's called her by name. And then she just stopped. She's just in shock. And then she turns around
David Eckl 1:04:43
and sees them and then is epic. Yeah, just so well done. And just the introduction of them. Obviously, you're going through, you know, the first episode like when am I gonna see Jesus and it's like, okay, well, yeah, it's a series about Jesus. Yes. When am I gonna see him next and it's like Bam, like Mary's the first one to be introduced to him. Yeah, it's, it's great that he's like, I always think about Jesus and God being on time, like Jesus is on time where she is going to take another drink, and then puts his hand over her and says, This is not for you. Yeah. And like, what was going to happen? Like, obviously, she was going to continue doing something that she probably wouldn't want or wouldn't agree with. And now everything changes. Yeah. And that just in an introduction of him to her.
Lance Foulis 1:05:29
Yeah. Yeah. And so like, the scene kind of closes with him quoting to her the verse, you No Fear not for I have called you by name. You are mine. Like, I'm paraphrasing, but he quotes it to her. And she just realizes, like, there's no way you should know my story. And like, then he basically like, takes her by that head or something. He he embraces her something and like, you can just tell the torments gone. The demons are done. Yeah,
David Eckl 1:05:59
that's a good thing that you said that about, like, what she was doing and clenching her head, you know that something was going on in terms of a headache or the demons were, you know, in her body still and like, Wait, something's going on. But they knew who was there and who was in her presence. And that is just like, the visual of that was fantastic.
Lance Foulis 1:06:19
Yeah, I literally, I think we I think Kim and I have watched season one three or four times. I don't not have tears coming. I'm not like crying or weeping. But I don't Well, I can't watch that last scene without tears. Just yeah, just go on.
David Eckl 1:06:35
It is for Katie, nine when we watched it was like we are just glued to the TV. Like nothing else is going on around us. And it's just straight focus. You help because you're in awe. Yeah. Of what is going on? Yeah. And what this book that we are accustomed to, is showing us it's come alive. Yeah, it's come alive. It's jumped off the page in us. And we are just like, wow, we are putting two and two together. And this is fantastic. Yeah.
Lance Foulis 1:07:03
Yeah. It's so well done. So yeah, if you haven't seen it, you definitely need to go see it. You can you can watch these apps. You can watch all of season one on Amazon Prime. I just checked out yesterday. I believe you can watch. Probably all of season one on YouTube. It's yeah,
David Eckl 1:07:19
it's they have their own app. And it's really really cool. I felt led in watching it where they have this pay it forward. Yep. Technique. Yep. Where it's like you can watch for free. It's, there's no subscription to it. Yep. But if you want to, you can donate five bucks, 10 bucks, whatever. And pay it forward for someone else to watch it. Yep. And that is fantastic. Where I think it's going to fund future season. Exactly. I paid like 2025 bucks. And it was a donation. And I gotten 10 emails the next day saying you let someone in the Netherlands Watch this. Oh, yeah. Different language. And I was like, wow, that is really cool to be able to do it. And it's like, it could be someone that is, you know, just getting into it for the first time. It's someone that could be rewatching it Yeah, that was cool. Like that. I really, really liked that idea that they're doing that.
Lance Foulis 1:08:06
Yeah. Yeah, that's that's really good point. It's, it's kind of funny, because I just literally kind of pointed people to Amazon Prime and YouTube, which I guess it's fine. But yeah, you can download the app on your device. You can watch all the episodes from both seasons, on the device of your choice. And you can we watched them on our laptop. You can stream them on your TV, though. There's plenty of ways to watch it. But yeah, to your point, if you want to support this show, right? Like, you don't have to pay to watch it. But if you do, I forgot, because like they are translating it into other languages and everything, just like
David Eckl 1:08:41
50 languages. 5050 Wow, are they translating it to it's like that retreat there is just amazing. Yeah, like 50 different languages.
Lance Foulis 1:08:51
So like, it's an international phenomenon at this point. And it is all crowd funded. So a couple interesting facts. Dallas Jenkins, the director, he was actually in Hollywood, he was up and coming like he was going to be super successful. He did a movie The resurrection of somebody or something. You can look it up Dallas, Dallas Jenkins movie. And it bombed. And he thought his career was essentially over because if if you do a movie and everybody believes in you and you do a movie, and it bombs apparently I guess you're done which I guess makes sense. But he thought was over then he had the idea to do like a short and like it was very organic how he ended up doing this but yeah, like we said he's doing they've funded you know, to Dave's point they've they've funded season three so we know we're gonna get to season three. And they're trying to get to seven seasons. So yeah, I mean, if you go watch it for free, you should definitely support it. You can get merch you they got some sweet hoodies you can get
David Eckl 1:09:51
it was the craziest thing. Katie and I when we first watched it, we were hooked on it. Kids would go to bed we'd watch it, you know a couple episodes here and there. It was during season one of the first time we watched it and I think it was the next day. We finished season one we I went to a local ice cream place with got ice cream for the family. I turn around. And this lady behind me was wearing a chosen t shirt. Yeah, at the time. And how Mike? That is awesome. That's so cool. I just what it is sparked a conversation like Yeah, isn't that TV series? Awesome. Oh, great. Yeah. And it was just like, that is awesome. Like, I feel like I need to be supporting them and wearing a shirt. Yeah. And that would be cool. But I just felt like that was awesome. Like, what are the chances and I'm watching this right now currently in it. And I go and see someone that's wearing a shirt like that is really cool.
Lance Foulis 1:10:42
Yeah, I 100% agree. So where we're at here now, Dave is we're an hour and 11 minutes in. So we're not going to get through the eight episodes, that's fine in in the next 20 minutes. So let's go ahead and do just like a quick for episode two, which is Shabbat, we won't go through it scene by scene. And then we'll just you can just come back and we'll do the rest of the season. Okay, in. In other iterations, so Shabbat, I'm just going to kind of look through this real quick. Let's see. So basically, yeah, we, we kind of get introduced because I've really the whole, this whole episode is about Shabbat. So we got a flashback, you know, of a time before the setting of the actual show. So again, like, years and years and years before the time period of the actual show, there is just a scene of Israelite people getting ready for Shabbat and so you can just kind of see what Shabbat might have looked like, for an Israelite family way, way, way back before Jesus. And then, basically, when we cut to our actual characters that we know some people see Mary, all in her normal situations. One thing we didn't talk about with Episode One is that Nicodemus his final conclusion, after fleeing, Mary was that only God can heal something that's going on like this. And he's teaches this to the other Pharisees because they're like, he has to explain what happened cuz he's very, like, shaken by what happened. We get to see that in a couple of scenes in a scene with his wife in the first episode that we didn't talk about. But basically, he basically presents to these people, like some people are so far gone, that only God could could do something about I, you know, that's why it failed, essentially. So one of the Pharisees basically sees Mary we know it's Mary now not Lilith is in her total right? Mind. She's just walking around the town just doing whatever
David Eckl 1:12:54
smile on her face, you're happy as can be. Yep.
Lance Foulis 1:12:57
And so the Pharisee that sees her, it's just like, well, what is going on? And he goes back and reports it. And then Nicodemus can't believe it. And so he goes back and then he finds her in her right mind. So what are some things that stood out to you about kind of that?
David Eckl 1:13:13
Yeah, so go like, you know, see it, watch it in their own eyes, you know that it's that word of mouth type thing, and they wanted to go actually see it in person where they were both. I remember Nicodemus was very much so like, what is going on here? I can't believe it. There's no way that she was
Lance Foulis 1:13:30
going away. She's in her right mind all of a sudden,
David Eckl 1:13:32
absolutely not. And even seeing that and her like, right mindedness that, you know, you have to kind of go back to season or to the first episode to put together that what Nicodemus did was really the start of Jesus coming out to saying, hey, like, I'm here, I'm, I'm present. This is my call. This is my time. And seeing that and now with Mary and like, it's a complete 360 In terms of what she was like, it's the first episode to now or she's smile on her face. She looks happy as can be. Nothing's wrong with her. It just it's completely complete change.
Lance Foulis 1:14:09
And refresh my memory. I feel like Jesus doesn't tell her his name. I don't think so. Because, yeah, because she gets questioned later. And she's like, I don't know who it was. But I was one way. And then after I, after he came to me, now I'm completely different. That's one of the famous lines in it, which we'll we'll kind of get to that in a second. But yeah, so I mean, I guess I'll just go ahead and say it because it's one of the parts we don't need to go through it like scene by scene, but Nicodemus eventually finds her in the city. And he calls her Lilith, and she's like, don't call me That's not my name. And then she's like, Okay, fine. And she's like, my name is Marian. So he's like, he's just very overwhelmed and wants to find out what happened because it doesn't make sense to him. Something really incredible has to have happened. And he asked her like, what happened? What's different and she's like, Somebody came in did something that's what's different. And I don't know his name, she's like it because he wants to know who this person is because he wants to find this person because it's just not making sense. And he wants to, like, genuinely he wants to know what's going on. Because at first, she doesn't want to talk to him at all, because people like him that she's encountered before, generally want nothing to do with her and haven't treated her well. So she doesn't have a good, she doesn't really want him to be around. And he's very, like, No, I just, I just want to talk, just tell me what happened. And then she's basically like, I don't know his name, I don't know who he is. But this person I encounter now and completely different. That's one of the famous lines from the chosen series. So anything else about that? Or about the episode in general that you want to mention?
David Eckl 1:15:44
It was another kind of one of those things where, you know, we're starting to see the change that's going to come from people. Yeah. And it's really going to move through different, you know, three different people and characters that are in there. And you know, we got introduced to the fight called Five people now, there's going to be more mixings of more people throughout what we're going to see in here and just like what Nicodemus saw, and now what he's telling people, is, you know, hey, only God can do these things. Now. Now he's saying that, okay, well, what is he going to start doing? You know, and what is he What is His ministry and now change to from what he saw. And it's that kind of like one main staple that he saw now with Mary walking around is that now his whole premise is going to change because of this one interaction as one change where it's like something like that happens to you. That's all you want to talk about. Right now. That's the talk of the town. Let's talk about the Pharisees. Now what is going to change with them is going to be something that we're really going to look forward to throughout this whole series.
Lance Foulis 1:16:45
Yes, yes. Oh my gosh. Yeah, that's very all everything you just said is very, very, very well put. But yeah, the things that he say that when he's saying like, only God can heal this person and then then this person is clearly in our white right mind. And Nicodemus has been a really interesting character they've been setting up because he is at his station for a good reason. He does know a lot of things, but you can just tell there's just there's wonder. In him when he talks about things he he almost like comes across as like, I know a lot but I really don't know anything. And like, what if God is just, he's like, what we know. But what if he's, what if he's a lot different to what if? What if we've only scratched the surface? Like the things that he's kind of curious about and then how this interaction with Mary kind of like sparks something when he knows that when he sees that she's okay, then it's almost like he's not, he's not talking about in thinking about God in academic sense anymore. It's like a what he's like talking and thinking about God and who God could be in like, the state of wonder and like, almost like, giddy like a kid, like, oh my gosh, like, this is a miracle. That's one thing that they say like, this is definitely a miracle like what happened. And that's like a word that has more meaning than wood for you. And I, you can kind of tell like, when they say the word miracle that has something to do, like in their faith, it has something to do with God like something that's impossible that you witnessed it, and you can't believe that it just happened. But it did just happen in front of your face. And it's that kind of like, level of like, all that you get from him. And yeah, you can kind of just start seeing things changing for him. As as Marissa has clearly had major changes, right? I think
David Eckl 1:18:30
you probably have heard this term before. But Jesus has flipped the script in the script back then. And that's what it was. Nicodemus was truly by the law of the time and now that curiosity that spark in him is like, Wait, what is going on here? And it completely changes like I think about the tables, you know, the temple being overturned, like that's what that's what is happening everything is just being overturned in this whole new quote unquote, wave is coming in of change and restoration in life. And it's like, it's here, you know, they talked about it and even what we hear from Nicodemus is that something is coming well is this Jesus that that is talked about in the book of the coming of the Son is the time now Yeah, and that's that spark that gives you know the show some of that life to saying like, Oh, here Here comes you know, wheels are turning Yeah, well are getting curious and interested in it's, it's alive, and it kind of jumps off the screen at you. You kind of feel like I'm excited talking about right now. Yeah, just reliving it like it's great. It's great. I want to watch the episode two again. Yeah, no, it's it's great. You know, it gives you that that reason for hope and restoration.
Lance Foulis 1:19:36
Yeah, that's actually very, very well put. So I guess some of the other things that kind of happen is Simon and well, Matthew basically goes to the magistrate Quintus and basically talks to the magistrate is like, I don't think you should be trusting this guy. Is it true that you're even working with this guy and the magistrate is like, Wait, who? Oh, yeah, yeah, I like He's he is doing something for me. And then basically what we find out is that Simon agreed to find out so like we in the very first episode when Quintus this magistrate goes to Nicodemus, he's like, You need to make people stop fishing on Sabbath. I think it's because they're not getting tax money from it something to that effect, or they're not Rome, Rome wants to be in control where they're not in control that type of a thing. So we figured out as Simon has gotten himself into some kind of arrangement with this Quintus guy, where he's going to figure out who is fishing on Shabbat, and then he's gonna turn them over, he's gonna, he's gonna go to Quintus and be like, I figured out who it is, it's these people, so you can throw him in jail, and then he's gonna get his taxes taken care of, or something like that. It's like this arrangement. So it's a very seedy arrangement. And I believe in this episode. Let me just double check. Yep, yep. He Simon tells his brother Andrew, like, look, I did this arrangement. And because Andrew is like, wait, what arrangement did you have? And then Simon tells his brother Andrew, like, I'm going to figure out who's doing this. And and then Andrew is furious because he's like, these are these are own people that you're going to turn over to Rome. And then in his interaction with Quintus. Matthew is like, you shouldn't be trusting this guy, Simon. And then the magistrate is like, fairpoint. Okay, take this journal, and follow Simon around in report to me by writing down what's happening. And then come tell me if what you find and then we'll figure it out. And that way, if he's, if Simon doesn't deliver, I'll get him. If Simon does deliver, then I win. So he basically, the magistrate sets itself up in a win win. So it's
David Eckl 1:21:48
almost like Simon's making a deal with the devil. Yes, you know, he's already in one foot deep. He's now going well, I'm gonna jump in full into this, you know, situation. And it's like, he's getting himself in a super hard place. Yeah, it's like, it's one of those things. It's like, I don't know if you want to do that. But you know, as it turns out, what will happen, but it was interesting to see just like the interaction and the tense, you know, talking, it's another one of those things that we have in the back of our mind that okay, now that's going on to let's watch what Matthew is going to do and right in his ledger, and be that kind of like, quote, unquote, spy. So let's see. Yeah, it's gonna be doing. Yeah. Yeah. And
Lance Foulis 1:22:27
it's really interesting. Like, I think you've alluded to this throughout the podcast, too. But like, what you put yourself into somebody situations, you could make a decision that you wouldn't necessarily make, and maybe it's a negative decision. And kind of what we're getting the sense of, at this point is like, okay, Simon's made a couple of bad decisions. And now you kind of get the real feeling like, Okay, now he's in over his head, he made a couple of compromises that he probably shouldn't have made. And now he can't get out of the pickle he's in, there's no way out. And he doesn't want to necessarily turn people in, but he doesn't really have a choice. And so like, just the pickle that he's in, has, has gone from like what we saw in the first episode to like, oh, it's really, he's really in over his head. He's really in trouble.
David Eckl 1:23:16
Yeah, it's, it's a little unsettling, especially what we see with Eden and what she is going to be, you know, kind of curious in terms of what she or what he's doing, it's going to be it's, it's, it's interesting. It's just, the best way to put it is I feel like he is already off the track and he's now going further off the track to make you know, away right, and what turns out to be is, you know, the only way to get back to it is to follow Jesus but you know, he's He's way out. Oh, yeah, he's
Lance Foulis 1:23:49
way gone. He's way gone. And
David Eckl 1:23:51
it's needs a miracle to be able to come back into into the fold. But yep, he's got a lot going against him and a lot going for him.
Lance Foulis 1:24:00
He they're setting they're setting his story up really well. So really, the the last couple things to mention about episode two, from my perspective is kind of goes along. So it was really like, what's happening is like, we got Matthew Simon and Andrew we kind of got their thing going on. And we have Mary Nicodemus, and what's kind of going on with them. So Nicodemus gets called or I don't know if that's the right word, but there's somebody above him in again in this hierarchy of Israelite religious orders. This name of this character, bet din, I'm not even saying that up that Dean. That's how they set up that Dean. I think I have that right. But anyway, it's this guy who's important. So Nicodemus gets called into a court. That's the best way I can put it. He gets called into like a court room, which is actually I think, maybe it's a tent. I don't remember. But there's a guy sitting and it's the guy that I just mentioned, that Dean and basically CLAY it's come out that a miracles happen I think was Shmi well went to this this guy and he reports a miracle and and and that makes it a big deal so then all these people have to come in and give testimony and everything. So Nicodemus comes in and it's like, so so to your own account, Nicodemus, there was a girl that wasn't you nothing could be done and then you guys have seen her in the right mind. And so that therefore it's a miracle. Is that right? And And Nicodemus is like, let's not jump to any conclusions, because we don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill. So Nicodemus is like, let me investigate what happened myself, let me go talk to this person myself. She knows me she probably more comfortable than if we brought her in here. And I'll question her that might scare off or something like that. And that's what basically gets Nicodemus to go talk to Mary in the way that I just described. So it's kind of making like, things are happening, like you can't marry getting healed isn't just Mary getting healed. There's a lot of other things that that kind of affected. And so you can see that it's causing like a bit of a stir, I guess, did you have any, like a ripple effect or ripple effect?
David Eckl 1:26:10
So what is going on? And you'd have to almost assume that everything before, this is kind of you know, people are just going about their own business. None of this is happening. And now all of a sudden, you have this Mary situation that comes up, you have people seeing it, you have people seen her walk around the streets, like, Wait, what happened here? And that it's that prick again, where it's like, you know that thing in your mind? It's like, Wait, what happened? Like, what's going on with this girl? Something is up. Yeah. And it's that intrigue, you know, for more of what's going on? And it's like, huh, let's watch her. And let's see what's going on. And they're always in there going back and asking, Well, what did you do in that room? Like, did you do anything? Was anyone else there? They're kind of questioning the process and what had gone on to be able to document it. Yeah, to be able to write it down and have a story about it. Which is,
Lance Foulis 1:27:00
because it really it does you kind of get the sense of that what they ultimately want is the truth. Yes. But it's almost like they want to be in control. So they don't want
David Eckl 1:27:11
that stuff to happen. Like they just want someone to go there and Hey, say
Lance Foulis 1:27:15
unless it was them. If they had had it happen, then it probably good. But you get the sense that because Nicodemus was unsuccessful, that means that they don't know what's going on. And so therefore, they want to know the truth to know what's going on so that there's something that's not out of their control. 100% kind of feeling I think I got Yes, I completely agree. Okay, so then really the close of this episode is the Shabbat dinners is really interesting, because, I mean, they call it out right here that there's four different Shabbat dinners. So Mary this whole time, and there's almost dropped my battery charger for it is gonna kill me. That's hilarious. I didn't mean to do that soundbite but that is almost kind of appropriate. That's from the episode with Charles harder than marine season one. He did some he wasn't supposed to do in boot camp. And the the sergeant found them out and oh, that's a really fun soundbite. This is it is he's gonna kill me. So yeah, like literally the cord just hit that button. Just funny that that happened. Anyway. So Mary, throughout this episode, you can tell she's getting ready to do a Shabbat dinner and a Shabbat dinner is important, like weekly event where you're getting ready for Shabbat and Shabbat is the day where you don't work. We know it as a Sunday. Yes. And so she's getting ready to prepare Shabbat dinner. And the thing is like you have to do it a certain way. There's specific rituals and things that you want to do for your Shabbat dinner. So she's inviting different people that she knows to come over to her place and have a Shabbat dinner with her. And then Nicodemus he's getting to, you can have a completely different Shabbat dinner. And he's like the main guy like leading the Shabbat dinner, but then there's all these influential people that are going to show up and it's very fascinating that kind of Shabbat dinner he's going to have and he's going through his whole like, quote, coming to Jesus type moment. That's all in quotes. But he's like thinking he's questioning different things. He doesn't know what to think about this thing with Mary who's like, good and like he wasn't able to do anything. But clearly she's in her right mind. How is she in her right mind. And he's wrestling with that. And meanwhile, his wife is just not interested at all. In him questioning things. She just wants to have her fancy Shabbat dinner. And let's see Oh, and then we have Simon and Peter, or Simon and Andrew and eaten they're having a Shabbat dinner. And then who's the fourth year you can say whatever you want to if you want to just jump in there.
David Eckl 1:29:41
I think just the importance of the Shabbat dinner like it's the importance of the day but then also to celebrate bringing together what we see what they can Demas, your family members, but then also marry, you know, showing the importance of what that weekly dinner was and preparing it the right way and just that ritual type of weekend. Yeah, activity where it was a the day's important, but it's just as important as having this dinner, and really focusing on getting your mind right and body right throughout the week by having on this day. And that to me when I was watching it like just the importance of what the Sabbath is, I kind of put two and two together of like, wow, there's also some importance back in our own lives to be able to do this on our own situation and stance, where it's like, have a family dinner, have you know, friends over, do that kind of dinner and break bread and prepare it the right way, and celebrate what were called to do. So seeing this in here and the importance of what Mary did, and even with Simon and Peter and or Simon Peter, and then also Andrew, and Eden is like, Okay, that was cool to bring it all together, and have that weekly type thing and showing that and the importance of breaking bread together.
Lance Foulis 1:30:54
Yeah. Yeah. The Yeah, the community aspect of it is really interesting. Community and Family because like, you have the family, Andrew and Simon and Eden, they're doing it as a family because I think it was just the three of them having their dinner.
David Eckl 1:31:10
Don't you see Jesus can't like Jesus comes into Mary's yes to Mary's yeah, that's,
Lance Foulis 1:31:15
that's the amazing closure. And then the fourth that I forgot about was actually Matthew. So he prepares something. And then he walks to, we don't know what he's doing. But he walks to a house and he starts looking at what's going on. And we figure out that his parents, so you find out that he isn't welcome. But he still knows what Shabbat is, he knows what Shabbat dinner is. And he ends up seeing his family from a distance he won't go. So you're wondering kind of okay, why do they not accept him? Probably not. That's kind of a feeling like you get. And then he basically just sits down and has his own food. And that's when we get introduced to the dog. This, I don't think he ever gets it. I don't think this dog ever gets a name. But this dog basically just becomes Matthew's dog. His dog finds Matthew and is following him around. And I guess maybe they share of Shabbat meal together. But that's, that's a fascinating another one, because then it's this, this kind of Outcast type of a person who still knows that he is in this community. But he's also aware, meaning the Israelite community, but also he's not welcomed in the community. And now we find out he's not seemingly not welcomed in his own family. Right, which is a really interesting contrast from the other. And it kind of makes gives you a little bit more of a gives you some feeling, I guess, maybe for Matthew, and what else must be going on in his story?
David Eckl 1:32:40
Yeah, it was interesting to see, obviously, you know, what he chose to do with his career, to choose Rome over his faith. And now because of that, he is very much so kind of this isolated individual who really doesn't have a place other than just spending time with himself, the dog kind of befriends them in it, and when he goes through the city when he's working Roman guards always with him, and it's like, okay, you know, he's really that Outcast type of person. Yes, you know, you kind of feel your heart kind of gets a little tug, you know, towards them. It's like, Man, I feel bad that he made this decision. Sure. He's super smart. He's got, you know, like you said earlier, the math skills, he's doing all that together, you know, behind the scenes, and it's like, I feel sorry for him that he chose this route. But obviously, God's going to use them in a way that's going to, you know, bring glory to Him. It's, but it's interesting to see just what he chose to do to kind of disown his family, the people around them and be that tax collector for the people in the city.
Lance Foulis 1:33:39
Yeah, it's an interesting take. Because like, throughout the throughout what we have seen so far, you can see the desperate situation that Simon's in you can see the desperate situation that Andrew is in, and it's all about, like, I need more, I'm gonna I'm gonna lose it. And then Matthew is in a completely different situation, because he's got all these resources. He's got the nice place, he's got the nice outfit. He doesn't seem to super care about it. He's got like, super expensive sandals, he's got the job he's got his life is kind of in order, you can kind of tell he's got an order to his life. But seeing him on Shabbat, you can kind of tell like, he's so aware, even with all that he has in, in comparison to what the other characters that we know. He's got a lot but he also has lost a lot. And you kind of get that sense. Yeah, he's
David Eckl 1:34:28
he's broken outside of his work. What he's doing during the day, where at night, weekends, Shabbat, he's very much lonely. You know, he doesn't have much going on. Yep. For him. And it's sad. Yeah. Is that
Lance Foulis 1:34:43
Yeah. And then, the final thing that happens, which you alluded to is Mary is having her Shabbat and she's not. You can just tell she doesn't really know what she's doing. She's just doing it as, as best as she can. Because you're seeing like Nicodemus is Shabbat and he's because you're supposed to be sight and do all these different things. There's formal things to do. There's formal things that you're supposed to serve, there's things that you're supposed to do. So there's like, there's a whole like, ceremony to it. And there's a specific way of doing things. And you can kind of tell she doesn't know what she's doing. But she's doing as best she can. She just invited a couple of random people that she knows her as the blind woman who comes with the kind of lame beggar guy, they kind of show up together. And then there's like one or two other people, and then one seat is open. And then I think she says something that, like, you're supposed to have an open seat for Elijah, or there's something that she says, like, you're supposed to have an open seat, and then there's a knock at the door. And she gets up and she goes and answers the door. And then she's face to face with the guy. She had no, his name still, she's face to face with a guy that fixed her up seemingly that she met and she was one way now she's completely different. And then he walks right in, he takes that seat. There is something about that. I don't remember if I got that, right. But she was like, I was told when I was a little girl that we were supposed to leave the seat open for something. And then he walks in. He takes that seat seat. And there's something symbolic about that. I just can't remember.
David Eckl 1:36:10
The I Am the I am that person. Yeah, that is just like you watch that you kind of get a little Shigella chills? Yeah. Like, whoa, like that was? That was cool. Yeah, that was awesome. And again, you put that face to the name. Now again, now we're seeing him again. In episode tune. It's like,
Lance Foulis 1:36:28
and it's not until the end of the episode. Yeah, once again, once again, Jesus does not have a key part until the very end. But then when he takes the seat, I think they should I think Mary was like, this is the person that I told you about that helped me and they're like, oh, what's your name? He's like, I'm Jesus of Nazareth. And then the I think it was the beggar dude says something like Nazareth Can anything good come of Nazareth, which is a famously quoted lines in Scripture, because Nazareth, Nazareth was considered a less than great place. And nobody expected the Messiah of God to come from a place like that. They always expected him to come from a place of more notoriety. So it was just fun, fun little connections for people. Yes,
David Eckl 1:37:09
I know, you're paying attention to everything that's going on in the episode. But then like, when you see Jesus and him talking, and what he's gonna say you're like, I don't know, it's, it's tenfold what you're gonna listen to try to like, pick out from it. It's awesome. Yeah, I'm so like, you know, hyped up to hear what he has to say. Because, yeah, you know, you know, the words that he's spoken, but you want to hear them from his mouth from his mouth. Yeah.
Lance Foulis 1:37:31
Because I mean, it's funny because like, Jesus shows up, and like, you've, if you've read the Bible, you've read the gospels. And so you've read the stories. You've heard the stories of what Jesus did and, and what he said and how he said it. And you've probably heard people, like preachers talk about what Jesus said and why he said it. So like, the store, the series does a really good job of like owning its research and had I mean, they've had like, rabbis, they've had academics, theologians, all these people kind of come in and give their two cents on what was going on in the backgrounds during the Gospels and what Jesus would have been doing and why he would have been doing it and the depth of meaning behind some of the things that he did that you wouldn't know unless you had a more deeper understanding. So like, the show does a really good job of having Jesus do stuff and probably the fashion that he did it. And the reasons behind why he just said what he said, and like, if you're not paying attention, you'll miss something. And there's something that when Jesus is saying something, when the that act, and the actor does a fantastic job of portraying Jesus, I think really brings the character to life. But there's something about it where yeah, like, he says something if something happens, you get little goosebumps on Yeah. And even if you're not like you and I were we grew up like learning this kind of stuff. I think that there's definitely something for you there because she says kind of this larger than life. Character. Yeah,
David Eckl 1:38:59
he's he's so good with his words, or He's witty, and he's able to kind of give this like, you know, one or two or three word response that's just captivating. Yes, that is like, Whoa, he said that. Yeah, that is amazing. Like, even like when he sat down, I believe he said, I am. Like, even in those words, it's like, I am like,
Lance Foulis 1:39:20
I never put that together until you said that that is so powerful. Yeah.
David Eckl 1:39:23
But like even the larger thing is, I forgot that that si was open forum and hearing that it's like wow, like that is powerful. Yeah. So powerful.
Lance Foulis 1:39:33
Yeah, they do such a good job. And like, again, I can't wait for season three but so at this point, we're at an an hour and 40 minutes in so this is a long podcast, and we've only got I don't know why I thought we would get through like all the episodes, but there there's just a lot to talk about. So I'll have David back and we'll we'll talk about more chosen chosen episodes and chosen review. But I just I think my final thoughts and then I'll let you kind of Say your final thoughts, but I'll go first so you can think about what your final thoughts are. But yeah, I mean, like the series is just so exceptionally well done. It's very accessible. No matter who you are, no matter your background, there's a lot of things that you can stream and a lot of things that you watch. I, Natalie and I talked about it. So we worked with net David and I worked with with Natalie, way back. So the podcast with Natalie Baldwin, when we talk about being in the same department and doing a lot of stuff, David was in that office with us, we were doing a lot of the same things. And Natalie and I talked about watching Game of Thrones. And that show is definitely not for kids. It's fair is for a very mature audience. And I watched it. And it's got stuff in there. That's really not not great. Anyway, that series ended. And it was so disappointing how it ended. It was not well done. But you know, it, it is what it is. But this isn't like that kind of a show, it's accessible, there's nothing that you're going to see that you're going to be like, No, I could have probably probably would have been nice if I just never seen that in my life. Right? Or been exposed to that in my life, that probably wasn't the best thing. You're not gonna get that from this series. But it's a really well done series. The characters are excellent, the character development is excellent. It's very historical. If you do read the Bible, or if you ever did read the Bible, or you were ever curious about the life of Jesus, it would be fascinating to go who read through the gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and then bits of x. And then watch this series, then watch that because it does, you mentioned that it really makes that stuff that you read come to life. And it makes you I always, I always feel more in awe. When I watch it about all of the things that I've read over over the Bible, not just even the Gospels or stuff in the Old Testament, they bring up they even have a Moses is in the beginning of one of the episodes. And you don't know it's him, right? Like what we've mentioned, it's just a scene. It's the two guys and they're doing something and then something happens like, Oh, this is Moses. Okay. Oh, and this is Joshua. Oh, that's kind of cool. So it's not just the gospels that kind of come to life, it's really the Bible like end to end, in a lot of ways. So anyway, go check it out. It's free. Pay it forward, I didn't know that you would get an email that you just gave the show to somebody. So I would recommend I clearly need to do that. But yeah, great series, I highly recommend it. Like I said, this is a bonus episode. I kind of want to try doing a review. Clearly, I'll need to condense future reviews. But yeah, David, what are your What are your final thoughts, man,
David Eckl 1:42:47
season one through what they're going to do season seven will cover truly the whole New Testament from really the Gospels into Jesus dying. And but I do appreciate the flashbacks and flash forwards, if you will, like talking about Moses and seeing Joshua, early on. Like that, to me is just that extra level where you know, talked about this New Testament, that new coming of this new savior. Okay, we hear that in the Old Testament, it's coming in the New Testament, I love those beginning parts where they kind of flashback like we talked about, yeah, that really kind of helps paint the picture of what's going on what this prophecy is coming true. And right. I mean, it's one of those shows that I watch that you can continue watching, you couldn't get tired of watching. Yeah, you know, and to your point even to like, if you're at least somewhat interested, or you have some kind of, you know, ensure like you're interested in a piece of it, you could watch you know, the first episode, and be like, wow, you know, I'm interested in knowing more, you know, I'm kind of intrigued, I want to follow a little bit more into it. You know, it's, it's something that you can watch on the go, it's something you watch at home with your family, you can, you know, listen to it or watch it anywhere you so please and it's one of the things that you know, even for someone that might not be a believer in their life getting into it, it's something that you know, could really spark this whole movement in their life where they're like, Wow, I've always wanted to know what Jesus had to say or I've always kind of had that in the back of my mind. And that thought for me, it's like, you know, we are I would say quote unquote, maybe a seasoned Christian where we know you know, things that we're talking about, but someone that might not have that familiarity upfront. Hearing that and having them watch this series could give them a very good deep dive into what the Bible is talking about. And that is so uplifting that it could be any walk of life that you're in. You're basically you know, getting into this and seeing what was happening 2000 years ago and putting those pieces together and that is that is so rich that here we are in 2022 and we're able to watch you know this on TV and being able to see the words that You know, we have read for a very long time pop out page and seeing that it's just unbelievable. Yeah, unbelievable and it's you know, it's it's shot really well theatrics are really well done I appreciate just the the whole package that they have put together that you know, it's it's captivating for someone that's very like you know a critic on the video and reviews and those kinds of things it's done in 4k It's it's a beautiful picture it's yeah, it's real. It's not you know, is
Lance Foulis 1:45:27
it done in 4k? I believe so. I didn't know we don't have I need to still need to get a 4k TV.
David Eckl 1:45:31
Well, I think if you watch on your maybe not your MacBook but
Lance Foulis 1:45:35
yeah, no, no, these have like crazy for kids. But it's so that's awesome.
David Eckl 1:45:39
So well don't even the sound like you hear somebody sound like that's something I want to talk about either but the sound of it and just all of it is just it the package is fantastic. I would highly recommend it to anyone that hasn't seen it that would want to watch it to want to go through it. It's it's something you can't miss if you're a Christian or want to be Christian or just at least interested. Yeah, story of Jesus.
Lance Foulis 1:46:06
Curious about the story of Jesus. So this will definitely get it for a Yeah, I mean, I my own personal story is pretty complicated. I grew up in the church. And then in my 20s I had some really dark nights of the soul difficult things that I went through and I I kind of was like, I don't want anything to do with that. For years. I would say I'd really don't want anything to do with that. And then slowly i i would say it. I mean that's a story for a completely other day. But I think it was really like Jesus who he is who he embodies really kind of pulled me pull me back to himself. I think so. I really liked this series because it again, it brings that to life. So anyway, we are well past time. So we'll have you back. We will finish and do some more. So thanks for coming on the podcast, sir. And thanks everybody for listening.
Jake 0:00
You know, we're not going to stop doing what I'm doing. I'm not going to stop crime, like people are always it's just going to happen. People are going to be evil people are going to do evil things. But if someone doesn't do something, then it's just going to be that much worse. Yeah. So for me, I just try to do my best with doing stuff and just be relentless, relentless in my pursuit. And, you know, that's really all I can do. You know, I think that a lot of the times we focus on things that we can't control, I can't control circumstances that happen in the world. But what I can't control is my response to it. So I think that if I mean that's in life in general, sure, you know, a lot of people allow circumstances surrounding them to cripple them. And it doesn't help progress. But if you just keep moving, kind of like that old, you know, just keep put your head down and embrace the suck. Yeah. And just keep moving forward, because it's still forward. Yeah. So I would say that that's the thing that helps me the most.
Lance Foulis 1:15
Hello, everybody and welcome back to Lance lots roundtable. Today we are going to be talking about law enforcement as kind of a general topic. I've been fascinated by law enforcement ever since I was a kid, my cousin when I was in grade school, graduated, I think, from The Ohio State University with a degree in criminal justice, something like that. And she went into the Columbus police academy became a Columbus police, Columbus department police officer. And She then moved later on down to Cincinnati, which is where she is now. My cousin and I remember when I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do for my life. I was like, Oh, maybe I want to be a police officer. I was really hardcore into martial arts karate, specifically. And I thought it'd be fascinating to protect my community. I got this. This was honestly we talked about this on episode 11. When we talked with police officer Colin Phillips. So I'm kind of reiterating stuff I've talked about before, but in the listen to that episode, yet. Go listen to that episode. Absolutely. Kim's miked, as you can see. Hi, guys. So anyway, I was on AOL Instant Messenger back in the 90s. It would have been super late 90s. Cuz I think I was in high school. And I was talking with my cousin who was a police officer. Again, she was in Cincinnati at the time. And I wanted to talk to her about being a police officer. And so I mentioned to her I think I want to be a police officer. And she immediately typed back, absolutely not. And I was very shocked. And I said, why? And she's like, because you have morals. And I was like, that doesn't make sense. What do you mean? Then she went into telling me about the suicide that she had gone to been called to. And she explained in detail what she witnessed and what she saw at the suicide. And then she explained daughter stay at arrested the father and what the daughter had been through, she explained that and how she got the dad to confess to what he had done. And that was all like something, some things that she had encountered and within like a week. So in my head, I think I had more of a oh, I don't know, Lethal Weapon, maybe cops, the TV show, maybe were in my head, law enforcement work would be getting called to a bank, a bank heist, and doing a high speed chase with bank criminals or something. So I didn't really have like a good concept of like, Oh, I just got called to a suicide. And I was like thinking through, okay, if that's what I had to deal with daily, and I didn't know what I was getting called to really necessarily and then I would just walk I just I felt like, I didn't want to do that. Basically, as soon as I had a conversation with her, I decided what to do, but I've always had a huge respect for people that do that job. And I've known several people that have been doing that job and several podcasts I've listened to over the last couple years. It's obviously a hot topic. And I listened to Joe Rogan podcast Joe Rogan Experience podcast number 1517 with Nancy pop Nancy Ponza. Nancy Ponza is a psychologic psychological psychologist, thank you words her heart, a psychologist that her passion is to help police officers. So basically what she does, and I don't remember where she's at, I think she's in the west coast somewhere. But she was talking to Joe Rogan about what she does and her passion is police officers that have gone in just had a traumatic experience and sitting down with them isn't you could be could be in New York. You can look it up. Okay, cool. So, yeah, or her she she basically gets a call when a police officer runs into a situation and it's a very traumatic situation. So her job is to go evaluate, really how that police officer is doing and working through it. And then she tries to, I don't know, it's this whole program that she's doing but she has such Amazing things to say go listen to that podcast if you haven't. And then there was another Joe Rogan podcast number 1492. Podcast with Jocko Willink, and it was published on June 16 2020, if you remember anything about the year 2020, if you haven't blocked it all out of your mind, things were psycho in the year 2020. And they talked about all the hard stuff that was going on in 2020. And that actually, that podcast actually spurred Nancy Ponzo to reach out to Joe Rogan, because she was really passionate about the topics that they were talking about. He was going to hear a lot of like paper movement and this podcast because I have like all this chicken scratch written down all over the place. So you'll probably hear me ripping papers and moving papers. Let's see. It was New York. She's in New York.
Lance Foulis 5:48
She is in New York. So Nancy Ponza is in New York. Yes. Now going back to my childhood, I think one of the main reasons that I thought about these kinds of things, I grew up in a in a town close to the Capitol in Ohio. And I remember I had this memory as a really young kid of being woken up by a loud sound, but I didn't know what it was. And the next morning, I found out from my parents that our neighbors had been broken into somebody broke it into their kitchen window was in the dad was up, and he just yelled burglar really loud. And that scared the guy off and he ran away. And I freaked me out is like, however old I was 567 I don't know how old I was. But that like freaked me out. And I was like, oh, people can like break into your house. And that level of I guess, fear of no control as a kid was like, really overwhelming. And so just the idea that, you know, law enforcement? Well, let me let me actually get into a couple of things. Because I started researching, like law. I did Google searches of law enforcement officer and police. And here's just some of the top things and this is from the US Bureau of Labor and Statistics. So and I this actually, this phrase has come up on pretty much every Google search that I came up with police officers protect lives and properties. That's like the first thing that you read when you think about police officers last at least in the couple searches that I did. And the other thing that they do is they enforce the laws that are around obviously, work environment, what type of work environment did they go through police and detective work? I'm literally reading this from the from the website, police and detective work can be physically demanding stressful and dangerous. Police and Sheriff's patrol officers and transit and railroad police have some of the highest rates of injuries and illnesses of all occupations working around the clock shifts is common. Pay is like a median median pay you're not going to be buying yachts. With with the pay that you make. What do they do? Here's some things that it says about what they do again, police officers protect lives and properties. What are their duties responding to emergency and manana non emergency calls patrolling assigned areas, observing people and activities conducting traffic stops, search restricted access databases for vehicle or other records and warrants, obtain and serve warrants for arrest. arrest people suspected of committing crimes, collect and secure evidence from crime scenes, observe the activities of subjects, write detailed reports and fill out forms prepare cases for legal proceedings and testify in court. And it goes into like some more information on what exactly they do. And there's different types. What kind of work environment do they have? Let's see. What does it say here. Again, it just requests us police and detective work can be physically demanding stressful and dangerous. officers must be alert and ready to react throughout their entire shift. Officers regularly work at crime and accident scenes and encounter suffering and the results of violence. And then the little last blurb here it says although a career in law enforcement may be stressful, many officers find it rewarding to help members of their communities. I think these types of topics are really important to talk about. And I think it's really important to get a very specific type of point of view to this type of work. And that's why I am really excited to invite to this podcast, Jake, who is a law enforcement officer. We'll leave it at that. So Jake, welcome to the roundtable.
Jake 9:21
Thanks for having me, guys.
Lance Foulis 9:23
Absolutely. So how did you get involved in law enforcement?
Jake 9:27
Man, I got involved in law enforcement. My cousin worked as a while still works at a suburban agency here in central Ohio. I went on a ride along with them and I was like, Man, this is awesome. Just being able to be out in the community. Riding around I'm not really an office type guys. So when your office is a vehicle that travels I thought man this is awesome. And you know as I started to move towards the police academy, and so started to do internships and then really, you know, move into that field. It just became something that I realized that, you know, I don't want to sound cliche, but it's like, you're kind of born to do it. Yep. So, and I know that seems Oh, yeah, of course, he's gonna say that. But it really was, um, you know, before I was a, a, like supervisor at a call center. And I could have continued that career path. And it just never felt right. So once I got into law enforcement, and then was able to secure a full time job, it was like this. This is
Lance Foulis 10:39
you just knew. Yes. This is this is me. How old were you for that first, right along?
Jake 10:44
Man, I was probably 18, probably 17 or 18 years old? Probably, I would say, yeah, probably 17 or 18? And
Lance Foulis 10:53
what types of things? Were you involved in it? 1718?
Jake 10:55
As in just one more day, right? Yeah. Really, sports. Sports was really big. I mean, that's really where my life kind of revolved around my twin brother, and I played baseball competitively, since we were five. So we played that. And I think that just being having a really good home Foundation, and being able to have people in my life to create a path and helped me, you know, move down that path really pointed me in the direction of law enforcement.
Lance Foulis 11:31
Got it. So you're you you've made the decision, I want to get into law enforcement. So tell me just the process of getting in.
Jake 11:38
So when I first started getting a law enforcement, it was way more competitive than it is currently. Because sometimes when you think about who in their right mind would want to get into law enforcement in today's world, it's a really common question. But when I was getting into law enforcement, it was competitive. So I went through a program at one of the community colleges here in Columbus that allowed you to do secure an associate's degree, but also you were able to go through a police academy through the ohio pod is what it's called. So you did your college courses. And then I think it was a spring and summer quarter that you were in the police academy, and that was your full time gig. Wow. Yeah, so you did it. And then the difference was, is that you had to go find your own job. So if you're going through, like, let's say, you know, Columbus police department or a state highway patrol, you, you are generally going through that police academy, because you've already secured employment. So when you're going through the Columbus police academy, you're you're, you're going to if you graduate, you're going to be a Columbus police officer. That was not the path that I did. I went and secured a certification as a law enforcement officer in Ohio. But then it was, hey, you have this amount of time to secure employment. And if you don't secure employment, then your certification could run out. Oh, well, so yeah, I mean, long, I want to say it was like a year. I don't remember the specific timeframe, I want to say it was maybe a year to a year and a half. And there were certain parameters and stuff like that. But one I knew guys who went through all this, you know, work all this time and, and testing and physical activity to not get a job as because your time ran out. Or maybe they realized that it wasn't for them. So sure, it was different. I mean, when you applied at a job, I remember applying for a job and there was like one or two spots, and there's hundreds of people applying for it. Oh my gosh, and it was and guys who are applying or guys and girls who are applying with experience, and you're a new we'll say Cadet coming out of the academy, just begging someone to yeah, please hire me. Yeah. So I actually started my career at a suburb here in central Ohio as a reserve officer, which basically means you're doing it for volunteer for free. Oh, gosh,
Lance Foulis 14:07
I the actual job actual
Jake 14:09
job. Now you're, you're not full time. So you have to have another job, which is what I did, okay. And, and it was, you know, for free. I think I did it as a reserve at this agency for a year. So then I went part time at another agency, and then I secured my first full time job. And I think I was making like $15 an hour. Oh my gosh, so you can imagine it's it's pretty crazy now that you know, police departments now are fighting for good qualified candidates. When I mean, if you weren't doing a reserve job back then or and working your way up, it was hard to secure these really, you know, prominent jobs at larger agencies that are paying significantly more than some of the smaller ones.
Lance Foulis 14:58
Okay, that makes sense. I mean, My cousin has said the same. She's a sergeant in Cincinnati. And we talked to her over the holidays. And she said, The Recruit pool is really bad right now. Yeah, after last couple years. And Mike, the guy that taught me karate, he's a police officer in North Carolina, near Raleigh. And he said the same thing. So that that sucks. So okay, so you get done. When you're in when you're learning? Are you learning laws that are specific to Ohio? Or is it more general than that?
Jake 15:28
I mean, you're gonna have your laws that are specific to your state. But you're also learning constitutional law, you know, the amendments and things like that applies, no matter what state you're going to. So you know, it's a mixture, I like to think of it as you have to be equally as intellectual as you are being able to perform physically. And some, it's not an either or thing. You know, you can be a great shooter, but not understand the law, and it puts you in, you know, a predicament, and in a criminal situation sometimes. So yeah, I would say that, you know, the police academy is like drinking through a water hose. And you really don't know what exactly you're, you're kind of absorbing, and you're, you're out. You, oh, this is what they're talking about.
Lance Foulis 16:15
That makes sense. Like a fire hose. It's just a ton of information. You're not sure what's even sticking? Yes. That sounds wild. So tell me about the physical aspect. What did you go through physically?
Jake 16:26
Um, I mean, they have, you know, we would do Ron's. So the Academy, the police academy, that I had, I would say was not like a military. I mean, we did have parts of it that were kind of in your face and stuff like that. But it wasn't until I got to my current department where I had to go through another Academy. That that was, I mean, it was from day one to graduation day, getting smoked, if you were weren't performing. I mean, it was. And people say, Well, why did they do that? Well, they do that, because they want to tear you down to get rid of any imperfections that you have. That way that they can build you up in the best way possible. You know, because you have people coming from all walks of life, and to be a police officer, and not some of those people. I mean, they don't even know what it is to be an adult yet. Sure. So you know, to try to put everybody on the same playing field, I mean, that's why you wear a unit, the same uniform, you don't have, you know, they want you to have the same type shoes, the same sock showing the same hat, same uniform, because they want you to be the same to level you out. So then build you up into, I guess the best employee you can possibly be at that point.
Lance Foulis 17:43
That makes sense. So talk to me about how just your journey getting started, like you're out of the academy, how did you secure a job
Jake 17:51
application. So I want the department that I did my internship for actually hired me on as I've reserved there, that's reserved, that's the reserve job. And then once I got to the part time gig that I worked, that was another smaller agency. I'd like to forget that part of my butt. And then when I went, I had a friend, friend who worked at the agency that I worked for, and for my first full time job got and she really helped me just, you know, get my name out there and be able to have an opportunity because that's really what it's about is having an opportunity. And someone taking a risk on you and taking a risk on anybody in life. But for this was, you know, it was me. And I, you know, I worked there for maybe a little over a year. And then my best friends still to this day, told me, man this is if we work together, I met him at this department. And he was like, you know, this is really fun. I know you're enjoying it. You know, I'm in my 20s full time officer and he was like, like, 15 $15 an hour is not going to feed your family. Yeah, it's you know, and he really pushed me to apply for the academy or not the academy, but department I'm with now. And we went together with another employee or another officer from that agency. And we were like three guys, and he's like, Man, this is gonna be great. And then I remember going to the academy the first day for the my current department. And he's like, Man, this is gonna be a piece of cake. And I remember looking on the pavement and there's these footprints that are painted on it like in the military. Oh, wow. And I looked at him and I was like, thinking this is not this is not going to be easy. Like, there. This is going to be bad work. This is going to be a tough Academy and yeah, and they were changing things the department like they went they revamped everything which I think was phenomenal. because they really wanted to invest in their employees, like, they want to weed out the bad ones and get the best people that they could. So we, they come out and they tell you, you sit up on this, you know, footprints and basically, the footprints are at an angle as the puzzle position of attention in the military. Okay? So they just kind of explain it. And next thing, you know, these guys with these, you know, their full uniform and they're coming out rush and just smoke in everybody. And you're just like, well, this is. So that was my and I mean, the first week I just kept telling him like, why did you do this to me? Yeah, but now, right? Yeah. Why did he drag me along? But now I'm like, you know, I owe him everything for, you know, doing that. But at the time, I was just like, man, here we go yet.
Lance Foulis 20:52
So this so what you're describing is like a secondary Academy for your current Yeah, agency that you're with. Okay. So in your timeline, you had had your, what do you call the first job that starts with an Army Reserve reserve job? You did that for a couple years? You're making pennies, you have to work two jobs?
Jake 21:09
Yeah, um, yeah, I'm working a full time job at that call center that I was telling you about. And then after that, when you have time you go and do ride alongs. Essentially, it's like a glorified ride along. Okay. Like you're a police officer, but you are. It's like, less, less than a part time capacity. I guess.
Lance Foulis 21:30
So you're not the one in charge. Like you're there to support? Yes, yes.
Jake 21:34
Yeah. I mean, you're still like when you there's no, except for maybe a rock rock or like a patch on your shirt that says reserve. No one's gonna know. Like, your everybody thinks, hey, this guy's a police officer, what's your you have the same training, but you don't have the same amount of like, rep experience that they said.
Lance Foulis 21:52
So okay, so you go from that job? What was your first full time gig?
Jake 21:58
That was in 2012, I think at a small village down in South Columbus got it. Okay,
Lance Foulis 22:09
what was that? Like?
Jake 22:10
It was I mean, honestly, it was awesome. I was able to just kind of like experience what type of police officer that I wanted to be. I had great trainers, like still to this day that guys that I worked with, I still talk to it's it's like the first place that I could say was my home, had great supervision. You know, develop great relationships that I still have now. But the only thing was, is just the pay. I mean, it just wasn't that competitive. So is it just the $15 an hour, yes. But I will say that a lot of times those types of things are outside of the control of the department because they want to retain their employees and stuff. It's just there's, you know, you have budgets and all this other stuff that they have to go through. So, but they provided a lot of good equipment, you know, decent training and stuff like that. But, you know, they were the first department that gave me a chance as a young police officer. And so I'll never forget that, you know, I'm a real believer, and it's not everybody loves to see where you are at currently, but they never see or really pay attention to the path that you got there. So I really want to always remember who I was before I had all, you know, the experience that I have and been blessed in the way that I have. So you know, I would do anything for those guys. And I I'm sure they know that.
Lance Foulis 23:40
Yeah. So I mean, it's, it's amazing to think about you you're putting your own time and investment into into becoming a police officer, nothing secured. Once you're done, then you have to go find a job. I mean, that's, I guess, pretty typical of a college student or whatever. Yeah, but what you're describing is like, the pool is a lot bigger for people to pick from. So it's very competitive. Yeah, it was very competitive at the time. So then when you get your full time gig, they're taking a shot at you, they're taking a risk at you, from your perspective. Now looking back? How like, what's the what's the risk in their minds when they don't know you? Like, what's the, I guess, level of risk in their minds?
Jake 24:21
I mean, you're, you know, when you're, let's say, outfitting a police officer, you're spending 1000s of dollars on, you know, equipment training, getting them ready to be an awful time officer in your department. And you only have that interview process, which, you know, the interview process for law enforcement can take up to a year depending depending on what's going on. Because really what they have is it's kind of like safeguards, you know, you have your initial testing phase which says, Are you do you have the at least limited knowledge to do this job then you'll have The physical test, then you'll have usually like a panel interview with people to where they can, you know, throw shot questions at you. And then you have your, like, either polygraph or CVSA, which is the lie detector test. And then you'll have your psych. So when you get to psych, it's pretty much like, they just need to make sure that you're not, you're just like, one screw loose. Yeah. But throughout that process, which I would say, is probably more strenuous and strenuous than most employment, you still have people that get through. So they have to say, is this person going to, I mean, if, if you do something that you're not supposed to, that's gonna bring a liability, you know, it's gonna bring, you know, civil suits and stuff with the department with, you know, supervision and stuff like that. So I mean, there's a lot of risk. The just the job and in itself, of being a law enforcement officer has so much risk that people think oh, man, you know, yeah, you can lose your life. But in reality, sometimes losing your life isn't really the worst, most worrisome thing. It's having your house taken away. You having all of your money taken away, having your family go through complete, you know, ridicule watching the person that they love just be blasted on news. Yeah. I mean, sometimes death seems like the easiest way. Yeah, I mean, seriously. So and it's, it's just one of those things that there's a lot of risk for those departments to take on you. Yeah. So when, when someone took a risk on me, I still to this day, I mean, I've, you know, been with my agency almost for 10 years. Wow, the current one, and I still remember, when I got the call, Hey, you're gonna get full time employment? Yeah, I remember what that felt like. And I'll never forget that.
Lance Foulis 27:00
Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah. So talk to me about like, once you're starting full time, what's your day to day look? Like? What's it feel like?
Jake 27:07
Um, so my, so the job that I currently have, I did not start on the road like, patrol, right? So the agency that I work with, they you start in the jail, and you work as a corrections officer. Wow. Okay. So I did that, which, I mean, it is. It is a job that no one wants to do. But it takes some strong people to do it. Because it's kind of think like this, like, if you're working at a hospital, right? You have to take care of the sick people constantly. There's no leaving it. Yeah. But if you're a paramedic, you go to the scene, you pick them up, you drop them off, and they're not really your problem. And so, you know, you see them again, when you work at a jail, they get dropped off to you. So and in that line of work, there's you have people that are career criminals, and people that just made a bad decision that got caught. And there's so it's like a spectrum of people, right. And I've met some people in the jail being inmates that were great people that made really bad decisions, right. And I've also had friends that I've seen from where I grew up, being in jail, and you're in it's just a weird environment. But the job teaches you so much about being a person and being how to, you know, being able to talk to people, because sometimes, you get so used to the repetition, and there's the revolving door of things, that it's easy to be able to pass it and just say, I'm not going to deal with it, but there you have to deal with it. So you have to be able to talk to people. Yeah, and that, you know, working there for the short time that I did. allowed me to just continue to develop those skills and just recognize people for people.
Lance Foulis 28:59
Yeah. Okay, that's wild. What? Is that a 40 hour a week deal?
Jake 29:06
or more? Yeah, I mean, your standard I guess requirements is 40 hours a week, but I mean, there's overtime and stuff like that, that you would pick up. So I mean, you would be doing that all day every day. That is your current that is your permanent assignment. When you first start out
Lance Foulis 29:24
got it. Okay. Can you talk to me a little bit about like the mental aspect of it like how you get through how you got through and get through the mental aspect because you see stuff I don't see the average human sees you don't Yeah, you see stuff that we don't see
Jake 29:39
right? I think that the working in the jail you see just bizarre things more Sure. Just things that you're just like, I don't even understand what I just saw. And then it becomes normal to your and you're just like, okay, but, as in LAW enforce. Smit, you see things that I don't even know how to describe it. It's kind of like you become numb to things. Like your mind just is conditioned as some type of protective measure to kind of sidestep things and say, so you can go on with your tasks that this is not ish real, right? I mean, I remember the first time I saw someone's body, I was like, Oh, my gosh, that's a dead body. Yeah. And then after the hundreds of I've seen, you're just like, there's another dead body. Yeah, the hardest thing isn't dealing with the body. It's dealing with the families that want to know what happened. They they call you. You know, when after I got out of the corrections, and went to my current assignment, there was a job that I started an overdose task force with the chief and Sergeant that I work with. And we would respond to pretty much every fatal overdose and kill at least Central Ohio in our jurisdictional area. And you can imagine through, say, 2000, and I think it was like 16 through 19. So drug overdoses were huge in central Ohio. So I mean, there were times I remember being called in one night period, and my partner and I admire Sergeant went out to three different overdoses and one night cheese. So and it's it's never the bodies that, you know, would bother you. It's, it's the families that you want to you want to get, you know, give them some type of closure. And sometimes you can't, sometimes the evidence, isn't there. Sometimes the circumstances don't allow it. Yeah. But, you know, that's still a mom, that's still a dad still, brother, it's still a sister that they want some type of answer. And they and I think as humans, we want someone to be held responsible for things, even though that doesn't eliminate our sense of responsibility for what had happened, I guess. But with the fit with the families, they just, they want an answer. Yeah. And sometimes you can't give them and that's what is the hardest, I would say, Are
Lance Foulis 32:21
you describing being at a crime scene? It's just happened, and then the families show up there?
Jake 32:27
Yeah, that is, so I had my partner, who is like, Well, my partner when I was doing the overdoses was he had retired and then basically came back. I mean, this man had done at all, he was a SWAT, he did a SWAT operator, he was a patrol officer, he was a homicide detective, and then eventually were cold case homicides. So he really taught me a lot about, you know, how to talk to people how to deliver the bad news. And it's not necessarily the family right away, when you're, I mean, everybody's going to be upset, like, that's something in your mind that's conditioned, like they are going to be upset, they're going to upset doesn't mean just crying, it can mean really, like physically angry. It can, you know, be family fights going out because of this. A lot of different emotions going on, but it's the, you know, one month, hey, do you have anything? You know, we're trying to months, do you have anything, and you're trying I mean, and also you have, you know, 10 other cases that going on, that you're trying to show the same attention to? So it becomes just a lot. And that's really the thing that I would say is the hardest that I don't even know if people really talk about because it's, it's like you as a police officer, no one's to talk about the, you know, the stuff that kind of gets to you. Because you want it that sense of strength or whatever. But I mean, for me, I really feel like your strengths are admitting your, your weaknesses, and then addressing them, and then explaining that to people because I can't be the only person that feels like that. Yeah, it's only a weakness if you allow it to stop you from doing your job. Yeah. So that's kind of the, I guess, the hardest thing that I've dealt with, thus far, and then also in a scene, you know, kids hurt and stuff like that. But that's like, the stuff that people will talk about, not the, like, small things that just continuously build up over time.
Lance Foulis 34:39
So oh, well, yeah, that makes sense. So the small the small things are like building up over time that maybe you just don't want to give attention to in your mind, and definitely don't really want to talk about it. And that just builds over time. Right? That sounds that sounds really rough. Yeah. Can you tell me about how, how, how do you stay optimistic? How do you not get jaded
Jake 35:00
Ah, I mean, I think for me, I just try to, you know, we're not doing what I'm doing, I'm not going to stop crime, like people are always it's just going to happen, people are going to be evil people are going to do evil things. But if someone doesn't do something, then it's just going to be that much worse. Yeah. So for me, I just try to do my best with doing stuff and just be relentless, relentless in my pursuit. And, you know, that's really all I can do. You know, I think that a lot of the times we focus on things that we can't control, I can't control circumstances that happened in the world. But what I can't control is my response to it. So I think that if I mean, that's in life in general, sure, you know, a lot of people allow circumstances surrounding them to cripple them. And it doesn't help progress. But if you just keep moving kind of like that old, you know, just keep put your head down and embrace the suck. Yeah. And just keep moving forward. Because it's still forward. Yeah. So I would say that that's the thing that helps me the most. Yeah,
Lance Foulis 36:04
that makes that makes complete sense. Could you talk about ongoing training? Like, what what is the best things that you've seen since you like, during your whole career in terms of like, what's helped you ongoing training and such,
Jake 36:21
like training for mental training? I mean, yeah,
Lance Foulis 36:25
like, go through all the stuff for you to continue just to escalate and get better at what you do?
Jake 36:29
I mean, I think that you're like trying to find your red line, you know. So I do, obviously, you know, we've talked about jujitsu, and I've done some type of, we'll say, combat training, since I was 18, from being an amateur MMA fighter to, you know, kind of letting that slow down, and then getting into jujitsu more. You know, hardcore. The thing that I realized recently is because I got around a group of guys that were really proficient in firearms, like, I'm not just saying, sitting in a lane and shooting, I'm not talking about marksmanship, I'm talking about, you know, getting a bunch of problems during shooting, malfunctions, running and moving, being tired doing it for long durations of time, what, what you, what I found was, oh, man, I'm getting with all these things, after you know, seven, eight minute run, I am getting maxed out, like my abilities are starting to lessen more and more. And I think that what, what we try not to do as human beings is we don't want to be, we don't want to feel that we are inefficient, and something. So what we do is we don't adjust our training to maximize our efficiency, we decrease it so we don't feel inefficient. And that's one thing that I've seen throughout my entire career is that, you know, I never want to get in a serious situation where it's so dangerous that I thought, in the middle of this, I should have trained more, because now it's my life on the line. Yep. And that is something that it's a real thing. I mean, you have depending on what area you're in, you could have your response be five minutes away, and five minutes, and the life or death situation is pretty much an eternity. So, you know, I once I realized that deficiency, as far as we'll say, I don't want to say gunfighting. Because that that's a weird term, but we'll just say, realistic application of using a fire. Sure. So once I got into that, I was like, Man, I need to get better. Yeah, so I started trying to go so I would go to, you know, shooting around a vehicle, like, have you shot glass to see how it's gonna affect your bullet trajectory? Have you have you been able to see how you're going to move around a vehicle? What's the strongest points of a vehicle to protect you? So I know you know, going to those types of classes and being around people that are better than me at something so I can hopefully elevate to their level of proficiency on things. And that is, I think, where I've been able to increase training and and that's like the, the physical part of law enforcement that everybody kind of thinks about everybody Oh, man that gunfight into the crazy stuff that you see on Cops. But the boring part is like knowing your job legally, and reading and understanding, you know, search and seizure and Fourth Amendment and what you have the legal ability to do, because if you can understand the conceptual basis of what you're trying to do from a legally like a legal standpoint, then it allows you to do your job without infringing on people's rights. Yeah, you know, because I think that most people are not doing it on purpose. You know, I think it is a generally an accident if, you know, they ask a question that maybe maybe they shouldn't or or what have you that whatever situation it is, but I think that
Lance Foulis 40:13
you mean the law enforcement? Yeah, like asking a question. Yeah. Yeah,
Jake 40:17
you know, but me as a, let's just take the badge off, I want someone who's enforcing the law to have the knowledge to to allow me to know what's going on. Like, I don't want someone to just barge into my house and take, you know, violate my fourth amendment rights. You know, so sometimes you have to take off the hat of being a police officer to realize the people that you're working for, because we work for the community. It's amazing. We're, we're public servants. Yes. So we serve the public. Yeah, yeah.
Lance Foulis 40:50
I liked what you when you were talking about law. I mean, let's make sure that I understand the definition of, you know, you're talking about getting after that red line. When you when you talk about getting after the red line? In my mind, that's your ceiling? Physically? Yes. So as fast and hard as far as you can run, naturally over time, as you get older. That ceiling wants to wants to draw.
Jake 41:17
I wish it was up higher sometimes.
Lance Foulis 41:20
So you're constantly kind of trying to push keep that envelope tight? Yes. And keep it as expanded as you can. Yeah. Now when you're doing this, okay, so when you're pursuing, you know, increasing your ability with firearms, increasing your ability with hand to hand when you're in trial, trying to increase your ability physically, when you're trying to increase your ability with your legal understanding. All of that is things that you're doing outside of your actual job, I imagine. Yes. Yeah.
Jake 41:48
Yes. Like, I mean, you are departments and departments are going to send you to those things. Sure. But at some point, you have to take your own personal responsibility for who you are. Like, I think of myself as a business. Right? Yeah. If I want my business to be proficient, I'm going to have to put in time that's not on the clock. Yep. You know what I mean? And that's just the way I approach things. I'm sure if someone else is a police officer and listens to it, they're all this, you know, yeah. It must be nice to be young. Well, it is. It's also nice to be alive. Yeah. So I, you know, I want my, my business or who I am as a individual, to reflect things in the most positive manner possible. And, unfortunately, sometimes that takes away from, you know, family time sometimes, like, you got boxes, and sometimes you have to figure out what coin you're gonna put your box and to fill it up, and it's going to take from another one. But I think that when you do that, you're really inadvertently filling up your family because the better you are at your job, hopefully the return will be the same at some point. Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely.
Lance Foulis 43:00
And I mean, you know, I work in corporate America, it's kind of similar if I want to be better at my job. It my ability to do my job well, direct is directly affected by what level of responsibility I want to take to improve my skills, whereas your My yours might be figuring out firearms on a more proficient level. Mine might be what what can I do with Excel? Right, but it's not something I'm going to learn unless I take the time outside of my job to learn it. Right. Yeah, so that okay, that all makes sense to me. So you just mentioned family, you have a family? Yes. Yes. So if I was to ask your family member, what's it like being married to a law enforcement agency? How would you say,
Jake 43:49
Man, how would I How would she respond? Yeah, man. I'm gonna go ahead and spin this positively because she's not here to answer. Sorry, babe. Oh, actually, I would say that my wife is and most law enforcement wives don't get the credit that they deserve. They deal with a lot of stuff. Yeah, they deal with late nights, working holidays, missing family events. And that's just the physical things they don't you know, for me, if I'm having a hard day, my wife or and I come home, my wife will generally know like, hey, I need to give this man a second to kind of just relax because sometimes my day it'll start at eight. I like the other day I started my day, I think 8am And I think I was almost home at midnight. Yeah. So you know, it's just for me specifically with my assignment. It's so irregular. That the irregular, irregular? No. I can't talk today. It not being regular. Yeah. Yeah. That is regular for our family. You You know what I mean? And, and my wife has, you know, we've been through some things at work that I'm sure scare the absolute crap out of her. And I know have scared her a lot, but she has not, you know, limited. What I want for my career. Yeah. And unfortunately for her, I always, it's like, oh, man, let's do you know, what's next thing? You know, let's do swan. She's like, Cimini? Can't you just go like, do something kind of calm? No. So, you know, doing what I'm doing now? You know, I've been, I've been doing spy Special Investigations for eight years, almost, including undercover. That that's probably not something a wife wants to think about, you know, not alone. Just going out on patrol and dealing with calls and stuff like that. And, you know, having dangerous situations pop up, could depending on where you're patrolling daily, but you know, when you say, hey, you know, I want to go undercover and, and buy drugs. And she's like, What? Why? Yeah, I think it would be a great opportunity. And reluctantly, she says, okay, and then eight years later, doing the same stuff. So
Lance Foulis 46:15
So you're a great opportunity for your career is doing an ODE going undercover?
Jake 46:21
Yeah, my grit my most. Let me let me preface this. God has blessed my life so much. It's sometimes I look, and I'm like, I don't even know why for me. Sure. You know, when I came to the agency I'm with, I didn't have to spend a lot of time doing the corrections, I was able to have an amazing opportunity to go to the unit I'm currently at, and you start doing undercover buys, you know, you start working in an undercover capacity. And my wife was less than thrilled on some of my attire choices and the things that I would wear, but you, you kind of tried to be kinda let's, I guess I want to preface as an undercover when you're when you're watching on TV, and it's like, they're living with these people for months. That's not what I was doing.
Lance Foulis 47:17
That's not what you know, okay. No, that's
Jake 47:19
not what I was doing. So you, you know, essentially, you're going out and a undercover capacity trying to what, you know, investigate crimes, essentially, you know, that may mean you have to go buy drugs from a drug dealer to further your investigation. But, you know, I did that. My wife, I remember us going to like some tasting for our wedding or some meeting for a wedding and having the end, I didn't have time to change my clothes. I literally went home, grabbed my car, went back to this place. And she looked at me like, no, absolutely, I made a long t shirt. And she just looked at me like, What are you doing? And I was like, Yeah, this, this is pretty ridiculous. And so you just kind of lose your lose. This is not normal. But everyday, you're wearing this stuff, you're doing these things. You're just like, this, this is normal for me. But yeah, that would, I guess, having the opportunity working with the eight, you know, the unit that I'm working at now. Now. I've been able to do things in my career, and have opportunities that I mean, there's literally movies made about stuff that you get to do on a daily basis, and to be around the people that talented people that have invested in me too. And that have, you know, taken those chances all man, it's, it's, it's like you don't have enough money in the world to pay them back for it. Yeah, you know what I mean? It's just one of those types of things.
Lance Foulis 48:52
It's amazing when you get put in a situation where there's really good people that you get to be around and when they are willing to like invest in you. And you, you, you know, the positive effect that they're having on you and how they're helping you reach your goals. There's because you can't control that you can't control it, usually who's around you. But when you get put in an environment where you're getting really good input from the people around you, that's a fantastic place to be in. Yes. Let's go a little bit more in depth into that journey of being undercover. How did you go from what you were doing before? I mean, you're getting input from people, you're getting instruction and training and all that. So like, how did that transition into that career? Go?
Jake 49:36
Oh, man, I remember. So like the first year was just a blur. Sure. I mean, the best time in my life, like career wise, it was just, you're kind of like floating over yourself. Like this is what I'm doing and mind you. When I first started, I was not very good, because you spend your whole life not trying to be a criminal and you're pretending to be a crime. But also it's like, well, how do you
Lance Foulis 50:01
don't want to act like you're pretending? Yeah, exactly. How
Jake 50:05
do you how do you pretend not to pretend to be a criminal? So I had, you know, the guy who trained me was, I mean, still this day, I would say it was one of the best investigators I've ever talk to you. I mean, him. And I still talk and bounce things off each other. And he really, like took me under his wing. And he would just gave me a lot of advice, and even not even just advice, but like, Hey, man, you're not doing well at this. Do better at this. Yeah. And I think a lot of the times, no one wants to hear that. But that's really, for me, what allows me to address the deficiencies I had. You know, I'll still remember. I still remember the first drug deal I ever did. I, I literally tried to carry the drugs out like a Subway sandwich. Because in my mind, I could not process what it was going on. I mean, looking back at it now, like, what were you doing? Yeah. But it was just kind of like, this is this is happening, like, this is really what we're doing. And I remember the guy was training with was with me, and he's like, Hey, like, put it somewhere. And I was like, Where do I put it? I just remember taking my hat off and putting it under my hat. And he probably looked at me and like, we still laugh about this, like, and I love when people tell all the greatest stories about them. But I am like, let's tell the terrible stories, because those are the best. Yes. And that's when that happened. I was like, I still tell him like, why did you pass me? But you know, over time, you become better at it. And I'm not you know, they're being undercover. I always say undercover is like, a tool belt on your tool on your or tool on your tool belt? Yeah. And it's just one thing that you can pull from to be a better detective, you know, so for me, I would say, the under covers skill sets, there are guys out there who can do it, like, just boomed. I mean, they're snap, it just comes natural. And they're, they're able to do that. For me. It took work, you know, and I'm still not the best. I mean, I would say on average I get by, but there are guys out there that I'm just like, Man that like they are phenomenal at doing it. I love the investigation portion of it. You know what I mean? really diving in and developing a case?
Lance Foulis 52:30
Can you tell me about that, like what that means? It just means
Jake 52:33
using, you know, without getting too into it using things like techniques and methods to take it from point A to point Z, okay. You know, add it, you can do, you know, things like surveillance, intelligence gathering, figuring out who they are, what they're doing, like, I want to do that. That's what I like to do. And undercover when I can, I'll introduce it, you know, I mean, so yeah. But undercover comes with, you know, risk. It, I've been in situations, not more personally and with teammates that it's I mean, life and death situations. And that's where the fun Come becomes reality. And you're just like, you know, this, this is real. And I think that, you know, collectively the, it's kind of like I was saying, you know, you want to be physically a bit able but also intellectually able. And that's the thing with undercovers, like you want to be able to have that like chameleon esque type of your skill set. But it's not the most important thing. You know what I mean? It's not like, I'm just going to give 100% and have this undercover thing and not worry about actually helping how to put together a case. Yeah, so yeah, that's
Lance Foulis 53:56
like a lot of different hats. Yeah, that you get used to wear? Yes,
Jake 53:59
yes. It's, you know, from the unit that I'm with, you could be doing anything. I mean, you could be doing a drug case one day, and then working, assisting with a death case the next day, you know, that's what I think is so interesting about the people that I work with, and the supervisors that I work for is that, you know, they have, you have to have your head on a swivel at all times. You know, and sometimes I think, when you do it for so long, you forget how dynamic things are. And and when you speak about it out loud, you're just like, oh, man, it's kind of a lot.
Lance Foulis 54:43
So like, yeah, it is a lot. So I mean, that brings me to this question. And I'm really curious just how you answer it because I just I want I'm just curious mentally, what this is like, Do you ever do you ever run into a situation or did you ever run into a situation where you're just like your motive addition to keep doing it was gone or struggling or where you're just like I should do I want to keep doing this did that has that ever happened?
Jake 55:07
I mean, yeah, for sure. It's thought like, man, is this not not from like a law enforcement perspective, but from just like being tired perspective? Yeah, for sure. You know, I worked cases where I'm just like, I just wish this would end because I'm tired of it. I'm tired of, you know, just absorbing your life. I mean, think about thinking about something constantly. You know, you as a criminal, your thing your that's your lifestyle. So if you're doing it 24/7 But me I have eight hours in the day or, you know, more so yeah, you're but you're constantly thinking about strategizing, trying to figure out what's going on. But for me, I think that as far as like, giving up on what I'm doing, I've always thought about, like, you know, let's maybe go try us, you know, on the SWAT team or something like that our canine like that. Absolutely. is interesting to me, but I don't think I've ever thought like, let's just, let's just give up. If anything, if something gets harder, I feel like I want to pursue it more, because I don't want that to be the thing. Like, that got away. Yeah. Makes total sense. Yeah. So I feel like that it just kind of makes me It drives me crazy. But it just I want to do it more and more.
Lance Foulis 56:26
Yeah. So like, you run into a challenge. You're like, Okay, well, I'm gonna conquer this sucker. Yes.
Jake 56:30
And when you do conquer, you know, I've had cases where it's like, Man, I'm chasing, trying to get all this stuff for, you know, a year or two. And then you finally get it. And it's just like, Man, that was awesome. Yeah. Moving to the next. Right. All right. Now on to the next. Yes.
Lance Foulis 56:48
So how many like, like, give me like a peek example, when you have like, most amount of cases you've ever had that are all you're just working like X number of cases. They're all in different states, like, in different parts of their areas.
Jake 57:02
Man, I think when I was working overdoses was the most, because we are very, we were a unit of three guys, it was to detect, well, two detectives, and then they added another one, and then it was a sergeant. And when we first started, we were not only working our own cases, our jurisdiction, but we're also helping out other agencies. Because before we started that task force, overdose investigations were not worked like a crime scene, it was it was deemed an accidental death. So nobody was really held responsible. It was just like, hey, this person took the drugs and they overdosed. And, you know, it's an unfortunate situation. So what was really awesome to be a part of was changing law enforcement from that standpoint of working investor or an overdose and trying to find out who the dealer was provided to them, and then actually go after that dealer criminally. So when we first started providing or, you know, going to these agencies and say, Hey, can we work your overdose deaths? They were like, yeah, why? And we would tell them and, and it was foreign to them, you know, and not only were we working the deaths, but if someone non fatally overdosed, and was able to be revived by a, you know, mad X or whatever, well, we would go out to them knock on their door and say, hey, you know, we understand you had a medical emergency, we're here to offer some type of assistance, we had a like social worker, someone who could provide them with that to where we could, as law enforcement, you know, deal with the law enforcement side, but from a medical standpoint, if they didn't feel comfortable talking to law enforcement about it, because traditionally, the police are there when things someone needs to be held accountable for something or when something bad is happening. So
Lance Foulis 58:53
so they wouldn't necessarily want to talk to a law enforcement officer because they don't want to end up in trouble. Yes. So
Jake 58:57
that was kind of the first hurdle but we were able to if they non fatally overdosed, we would figure out who sold them the drugs and then still go after them, but for a different crime. And, you know, I mean, it was a successful Taskforce, it's still going on. There were I mean, it was nationally recognized. Wow. And we and it's because of people at the department on with, they have very good ability to have vision to move and go outside of the normal things for law enforcement. You know, I, some people will stay in the like, Guys, when you know, first of all, law enforcement is not the same. Well, no, it's because law enforcement includes people that change constantly and we're constantly evolving as a, you know, human Yeah. So what you want, yeah, you want and that was one thing to be a part of, and see that. I mean, it was a lot of work. It was a lot of sleepless nights and stuff like that, but Um, to say that you had the opportunity to help change a vision and a way of processing things for law enforcement, that's not usually something that you can say. Yeah. So I was, it was just cool to have a small piece in that.
Lance Foulis 1:00:15
So. So make sure I have this right. And you just correct me where I need to be corrected. You're talking about basically, like, almost like, to putting this in quotes, like a new frontier type of a thing, where traditionally, maybe this type of thing would be held where really who you're going after is the people that are buying and using.
Jake 1:00:34
We're gonna Yeah, so when we were when we were working in these cases, we weren't looking at the person who was using the drugs as a criminal, necessarily, yes, they're doing a criminal act by absorbing drugs that are illegal, I get it. But what we're trying to do is go after the people that are providing because if you don't have the provider, then how you gonna get it? Yeah. So that's really what we, you know, we partnered with a prosecutors in the, you know, the area that we work and really developed a way to try to combat it. I mean, it was an epidemic. Yes. You know what I mean? Yes, you had people on the street overdosing. You know, you'd walk on certain parts of the street and see needles everywhere. You these kids are playing here. And you know, we've had it where people have died when their kids are in the bet. And you know, in the other rooms, yeah. So there has to be something. You know, when people say how to legalize drugs, that's not going to do anything, legalizing a drug is just going to say, hey, just let the floodgates open. You right, you know what I mean? And, and you have to be creative sometimes to to try to help a community problem.
Lance Foulis 1:01:48
Yeah. You know, so as the revolutionary thing that you guys did was then going after the people that were selling the drugs?
Jake 1:01:55
And yes, for not because we don't go after people that are selling drugs. But we're, you're going after the people that sold the drugs that caused the overdose and holding them response. So in Ohio, they have involuntary manslaughter. Yeah, right. Okay. So that's what the one of the crimes that you would try to charge or prove for the dealer, and if they non fatally overdose, meaning they were didn't die, but they there was something that they used to save their life and reverse the effects like Narcan, then you would go after them for corrupting another with drugs, which that charge in and of itself, how to to eight years, mandatory prison time? God. So that's what they were looking at. So yeah, it was, it was just a different, you know, Outlook on it, for sure.
Lance Foulis 1:02:50
Yeah. I mean, that's, I mean, that's really, that's really great. I mean, I mean, it's all over the news. And people talk about all like a lot, which is the problem with drugs that are happening in this country. And I've heard that it's particularly bad here. So I just love that aspect of looking at something in a new way and figuring out a better way, yes, to address a situation in a problem. So that's really awesome. So we're getting to about an hour here. So we're gonna start thinking about kind of semi wrapping it up. So I think the last couple of things I just would like to hear from you is people that are interested in law enforcement, people will let's let's address this into let's address this into laters. People that are involved in law enforcement, your average citizen, what things would you want to say to them to educate them on law enforcement?
Jake 1:03:49
I would say, one, get all the facts. Respond to all the facts and and understand like, for whatever incident is just don't knee jerk react to things, try to obtain the facts as best as possible when they're provided. And then I would also say that, you know, there are bad police officers in this world for sure. Just like there's bad doctors and bad priests and stuff like that. So understand that when there's a bad police officer, good police officers do not want them around. Yeah, it's not the the brotherhood that we talk about. It has conditions. You have to want to uphold the Brotherhood want to uphold the badge and everything that it represents? Yeah. Because the minute you don't, you're tainting that for everybody else who's trying to do it correctly. Yeah. So I would say, you know, the thin blue line and all that stuff that people talk about, it's not let's hide things because I've seen guys get exposed because of raw, you know, wrongdoing and they absolutely should be so Yeah, you know, the brotherhood that we talk about is a sense of, you know, camaraderie that we have, because of the things that we go through because you can't understand what, you know, law enforcement officers go through unless you are one. Yes, it is what it is. Yep. So and there was one other thing that I'm trying to think. Facts? Yeah, I would, I would just say, have some grace to, I mean, everybody in this world there, you know, there's times that you walk out of the door. And you there are officers that never step back in, right. There are situations that happen, that, you know, It's life and death on the line, and you have seconds to make decisions. And yes, you can make the wrong decision. But a majority of the time, things can be prevented for if people listen, the street is not a place to argue your legal position. That's where the court is. Yep. You know, for me, and my kids, when my kid gets old enough, I will tell them, if a police officer tells you something, you need to listen. Because when people aren't listening, that throws red flags, because usually when people aren't listening, it's for a wrong reason. You know, distraction, or whatever you you know, they had the guy just shooting on the freeway, you know, what yesterday, you never know when a situation that comes across where it could mean your life, and you don't have the ability to say no, as a law enforcement officer, like it's your duty to protect. So when everybody else is running the other way, you have to run towards it. So I think that just understanding it from just a human standpoint, you don't say like, I'm not condoning people doing wrong things. But I am asking for people to understand that we're human, and the situations that we deal with on a daily basis. Yeah. I wouldn't wish that on. Anybody that I care about.
Lance Foulis 1:07:13
Yeah, that's good. That's good. Last thing I would like for you to address is I'm 18 1917 years old. And I'm thinking I think I want to do law enforcement. What advice would you have for that individual?
Jake 1:07:29
Go on ride alongs. Go on ride alongs in different areas of your community, don't just go in the you know, worse areas, don't just get a feel of what's going on, get a bunch of opinions. You're always going to have that while law enforcement has changed, or Yeah, it'll always change. It'll, it'll change when I'm, you know, ready to retire, and so on and so forth. But understand, get a perspective and really think like, this isn't a job where you just go apply, and you don't live your life in a different way. When you become a police officer, no matter if you're on duty or not, you you have to, you have to act in a different way. If someone finds out, you're a police officer, and you're acting crazy and going, you know, you're with your friends and stuff like that, especially if you're 1920 21, your life is not going to be the same as a normal 21 year old. Yeah, it can't be because your department if something happens, they're going to you represent them. Yep. You're representing them. And, yes, and other businesses, you will represent your business, but their people think if you're a police officer, you should have a higher standard of living. And you have to keep that. Yeah. So I think that understanding that is hard to really grass for some people, and that's why it's hard. That's the risk. You know, we were talking about earlier, the risk of can I hire this kid? Yeah, at 21 years old. Is he mentally ready for it? Yeah. And, you know, we I got, I got into a situation where I was at a I had just been at a party, I would think I was in my 20s. And I was just there. I didn't even know the person's house I was in I was with a friend and my little brother was with me. And long story short, he had a girlfriend, who was, let's say, knot is strong up there. And she called in the police department said I was having a party providing them with alcohol. It wasn't even my party. But because she knew what that would look like, you know, I had to get called in and they asked questions and really I just I didn't understand what was going on. Because I'm like, this isn't even my house. Yeah. And so for me at a really early time in my career, I realized pee for watching, yeah, constantly. Yeah. And that was a great lesson for me. Not because I did anything but because I saw what people can do. Yes. And perception unfortunately is reality even if it's not Yeah, so
Lance Foulis 1:10:14
yeah that's that's sad but true but that's a good word. I mean the whole thing about living with the understanding that you have a higher standard yes that you need to live by is very important, especially at that age because boy it's really easy to make dumb mistakes at that age. Yes. And then I wanted to like mention, one podcasts that I think if you if you like this type of content, which I love, a really good podcast to go listen to. I've listened to I think just over half of it. Vigilance elite YouTube channel, Sean Ryan Show Sean Ryan is an ex Special Forces guy has amazing people on episode 13. He had NYPD police commissioner Bernie Kerik on. And they talked about his time going through the police in New York City when it was real bad in the 70s and 80s. And he talked about his undercover stint awesome. And it's wild and he lost like a guy that was on his unit. He went into go do a thing. They figured something out and he didn't be he died. Geez. And he talked about this. This guy. This police commissioner talked about his time undercover. And on the street in New York City. It was the best. He had the most fun. Yeah, for sure fun of his career,
Jake 1:11:33
the most fun, but for just looking back, I'm like, man, what the heck? Why was I having fun? Yeah. Why is this fun? Like when you explain to people like that doesn't sound funny. Like yeah, but it is. So
Lance Foulis 1:11:47
that's awesome. Jake, thanks for coming on. Thanks
Jake 1:11:49
for having me.
Lance Foulis 1:11:50
I would love it if you would come back. Yeah, absolutely. A lot more things I want to talk with you about. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah. Thanks for coming on. And everybody. Thanks for listening and we'll catch you next time.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Shelby 00:00
I learned about myself that like with education that... you just realized you have no more coffee
correct was tea like looked into my mug and like yep, it's pure design on its face
Lance Foulis 00:14
true Hello everybody and welcome back to Lancelot's Roundtabe. It is getting very spring like
outside we are early March and we're getting our first little taste of spring, which probably
means that we're going to get a least one more bout of snow before we get into permanent
spring time. So I hope everyone's having a good day. Hope everybody's enjoying the sunshine,
wherever you are, if it's sun shining, when you listen to this, but thanks so much for listening.
I'm happy to welcome to the podcast, a really good friend of mine, Shelby Smith. Shelby,
welcome to the roundtable. Hi, thanks so much for having me. Absolutely, really thrilled that
you could come on. So why don't you tell the people a little bit about yourself? Yeah, so I'm 33
mom of one currently.
Shelby 01:13
Born and raised, Columbus went to o u in Athens and I have a Bachelors of Science in
communication studies, through right out of college went into HR and then marketing where I
met you. That's where are we met? That's where we met a couple years ago. Yeah, well, more
than a couple now. We'll go with a couple. And then when that really just wasn't the greatest
fit, I left the corporate sector and decided that I was better fit for the education side. So I have
been teaching for five years. It's my fifth year. So I'm about to end my fifth year and wild God
years already. It's crazy. And I have my masters now in education, curriculum and instruction
from Ashland University. I didn't know you went to Ashlyn. I mean, it was all online. But yeah,
that's your mom. Right? Hey, everybody, Kim's here.
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Kim Foulis 02:09
Hi.
Lance Foulis 02:11
She's walking around taking pictures and video. She does that. Hey, hey, everybody. Hey, so
um, yeah, so like we met at a company that I still work for you left? Correct. And you were one
of the people that was in the infamous row that we talked about on the episode with Natalie
Baldwin, Episode 19. Go listen to it. Oh, I didn't realize it was episode 19. Bob, good plug,
Marketing, Marketing and Communication Specialist right there runs through the just part of
the blood you can't get rid of it can't. So let's talk a little bit about those days. I remember
when I first started. I was coming from local bank. And I was really excited about this job
because it was an actual, like, professional type job. And I remember meeting you, you were 90
days, I believe, is that correct? I think so. Yeah, yeah, you're getting or you're getting close to
your 90th day because that was some type of a milestone. Yes. And I remember just being like
a deer in the headlights,
Shelby 03:09
like get like 90 days, I was still a deer in the headlights. Let's be honest,
Lance Foulis 03:12
it wasn't easy. Which I remember Natalie and I got into that very much. But I mean, looking
back at those memories, it was, here's your clients, here's what you're doing. And when I say
here's what you're doing, it's more like, here's where you'll be sitting in here's your computer.
Here's how you log in random binder of things that oh, you know, the binders, we had a lot of
binders,
Shelby 03:33
they did do a great job of pairing you up with a person who had your client before you
unfortunately for me, all of my clients went came from a person who was leaving.
Lance Foulis 03:46
Yeah, and that's what that's that's like the worst situation that you could be in in that role is the
person that used to support it is gone. Because there's, there wasn't a good knowledge sharing,
I guess that's the way I would put it. So like that person left with the knowledge of how to do
things. So lots of all of the nitty gritty details. For your day to day you just had to learn by
Shelby 04:09
K
S
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S
Shelby 04:09
identifier? Well, I think a lot of it for me was learned by not doing and then realize I didn't do
and then having to do very, very quickly. Yeah. So that was a thing where like, vendors would
reach out and say, Hey, we normally have, you know, a program coming through or information
coming through for for this program are running, but we haven't seen it come through. Are we
still running that for you? Yeah, that's the only thing.
Lance Foulis 04:31
Like, that's literally like a third party and they're basically coming to your rescue. And they're
being very nice about it. But it's like, oh, yeah, you know, we typically would expect to get this
form by now. And we haven't done it but we know that you need the this material over here
and it's going to take some days for it to get there.
Shelby 04:48
Yeah, I think in the beginning, I had to call in a lot of favors for people I didn't even know yet.
Yeah. Can you run this for me in 24 hours? I promise you'll learn to love me.
Lance Foulis 04:57
Yeah. Oh my gosh, that's true, but you were really Good at your internal network. Oh, thank
you. Yeah, you were really good at that.
Shelby 05:05
I got the hang of it after a while. Yeah. And it just slowly after I kind of had the hang of it and
had been doing it for a while, started to realize it just was not what I was passionate about. It
was not what was what made me happy. It was not a good fit, I loved
Lance Foulis 05:20
who I worked with, it's always the people, it's always the
Shelby 05:23
people. And what I learned, and I did learn a ton from that position. Yep. And I'm very thankful
for that. But the biggest thing, I think I learned was the 8020 lesson, and that in your role, and I
try and pass this on to my students all the time, because I am High School. And for the last five
years, the constant for me has been seniors in high school. So I've taught a little bit of nine, a
little bit of 11 some electives, but the constant all five years has been that I have had at least
one one course of English 12. So all seniors and so one thing I try and pass on to them as
they're moving into that next phase of life is that they need to look for the 8020 You're never
gonna find 100% It's just not out there. Right? You're always gonna have some little bit that
S
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you don't love to do. Yeah, I gave an example the other day, I could work with puppies all day
long. be fantastic. So much fun, just little puppies running around everywhere, but you're still
gonna have that like puppies have sharp teeth, or you know, they're not potty trained. Or
they're chewing on your shoelaces. And you know, your new Louis Vuitton bag is now covered
in slobber or did this happen to you? Know, this is just my own? Like, no, no, no. life
experience? Well, I mean, my dog did eat one of my purses. So that's cool.
Lance Foulis 06:36
Just not a Louis Vuitton. God loved Piper. Oh my gosh, I forgot about Piper.
Shelby 06:40
How's Piper She's good. She's getting gray.
Lance Foulis 06:42
How old is she? Oh,
Shelby 06:45
nine.
Lance Foulis 06:45
Cuz you you guys got her before you got married? Right?
Shelby 06:50
Yeah, I think she's eight or nine.
Lance Foulis 06:51
Okay, that's awesome. I'm glad to hear about Piper. I totally forgot about Piper. Yeah.
Shelby 06:56
Yeah, so I try and tell them they're still that that you know, a little bit that you don't love. Love
the puppies hate the slobber and the sharp teeth. And, you know, and so if you have 80% of
the job you absolutely love and 20% that you can deal with, then that's golden. If you can find
9010 That's like the rainbow. Yeah. out there. Yeah. And so for me, it was when I was at the
S
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marketing position that I was in with you. It was the opposite. It was the 2080. Yeah. And the
20% were the people that I worked with. That was what I loved and what got me in every single
day. Yeah. But it was the 80% of the actual work I was doing was that 80% I hated? Yeah,
couldn't do it. And so in education, luckily, I have found the good positive 8020 Where it's 80%
of the job I love. And then there's 20%, where you have paperwork, and you know, grading
essays that maybe are not at the caliber, you would like them, or, you know, work
Lance Foulis 07:54
in progress, right. And you don't have to write anybody up. That's, that's also cool. So
Shelby 07:59
yes, it's very nice. Yeah, I mean, aside from like, sending home email saying, Yeah, I
Lance Foulis 08:03
literally thought about that, after I sent said that. And I'm like, Well, no, there's probably some
disciplinary issues. But high school, there's probably some discipline that needs to happen. So
let's talk a little bit about because I mean, from my perspective, you are so fresh out of college,
that it's I feel like for you is probably at least somewhat hard to know and get your bearings
around all that like now you can look back and be like, Yeah, I wasn't happy, I maybe I should
have made my move sooner. And maybe I didn't have to deal with all that stuff that I dealt
with. So do you think that's a consequence of Okay, everybody, thank you. Always fun when we
have these little like interesting cuts, but I had a phone call from my mechanic, and I needed to
take it because I need you to see how much the bad news was. So life happens. Life happens.
Exactly. Right. So what I was asking you Shelby was essentially, when you win, this was one of
your first jobs that you started, right? Yes. So I wanted to find out from you what your
perspective was on. I'm trying to remember how many years you were there before you left?
Was it like three, four? I was there like a little over four. So a little over four years. So you think
about I mean, that's when you're coming out of college things are just like in four year batches,
because high school before your batch College is a four year batch. So do you think that maybe
if you if it hadn't been your first job, you might have figured out quicker that it wasn't a good
fit?
Shelby 09:27
I think so. I think I had a lot of pressure on myself as well. Yes. Just to make it work. I had never
really experienced true failure at something and not not succeeding. Yeah, you know, and
Lance Foulis 09:44
that was hard every day was basically like on some level a struggle. Oh, to not lose my mind.
Yeah, yes, it is. And to be successful what we were doing Yes, yeah. Every day was like a battle
in that sense.
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Shelby 09:57
Yeah. And this was before like I was there about Before all of the reorg started, right that the
multitude of reorg were at my tail end is when those reorg started happening. So, you know,
we kind of had all of those different deliverables that we had to do that were eventually kind of
pushed off to other people. And we had just a core group of deliverables.
Lance Foulis 10:21
Yeah, so to kind of describe that to people. So in our role, we were like, we were managing
marketing projects, which that that's kind of a very loose definition to get more nitty gritty into,
I think a better explanation is like, we were like the gatekeepers to a lot of different things. And
it was our job to work with so many different people across the organization to make sure
things happen. So we had to be subject matter experts across across a very wide variety of
things. So anyway, let's talk some more of just about like that experience for you. So every
single I mean, we were all in that like, right, every single day coming in, the challenges are
really high, the pressure is really high, you have a date that you pretty much have to meet, you
can't miss any of these dates. When you do you get to have Crucial Conversations. So check
mail date, hashtag mail dates. So talk, talk, just talk a little bit about maybe your journey of,
you know, four years you're doing this thing, the people are great. The job is the way that the
job is, how did you get to the point where you understood, this isn't for me, and to make that
courageous decision to?
Shelby 11:31
Yeah, so I think it's also really important to understand that that point in my life was also a very
big turning point into adulthood, you know, coming right out of college. When I took that job, I
was, you know, 23 Yeah. And so still, in retrospect, now, 10 years later. 23 is really young. You
know, when I when I was in that spot, I was like, you know, I'm gonna know what's ups. I'm
brown. I know what I'm doing. I got this. And in reality, that was not the case at all. But I was
handed a one I considered a good title with a good salary, you know, we were looking for Yeah,
we were well compensated. And yeah. You know, I felt like if I couldn't make this work, then I
was failing at life. Period. Yeah. Period. And because also, if you remember, a lot of the people
that I went to college with, also had jobs there. It was different department. It was
Lance Foulis 12:27
an Oh, you haven like people like we really came out. Oh, you and my Oh, my ammo of Ohio.
Those were like the two big ones. I think. I don't think we recruit that in the same way anymore.
But yes, back then. Yeah. No, you folks. Yes. Can you talk about the comparison factor? What
do you mean? So? You're see that's that's the thing. I don't I think that's really important to
notice. Or to note. You mean comparing yourself to the fact that yeah, you went to college and
most people now you're in the professional sector with a bunch of people and there's no end
right? There's no spring breaks. There's no the quarters over. So
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Shelby 13:02
glad that you brought that up. Because that I've I realized about myself is I am a person who
works in increments in life in general. So I always knew that about myself in terms of like
working out, right. If I was going for a run, not a runner. I hate to write terrible. I don't know
how people do it or why you do it. Yeah, Harrison. Right. Eric, come on our friend
Lance Foulis 13:22
Aaron that we used to work with her and her husband loved to run. Do they run in like
blizzards? Yeah. And we would always scratch her heads at that a little bit. Anyway,
Shelby 13:30
I mean, they love it. And that's good. Love that journey for them. Not mine. Not my journey. But
when I go for a run, I always have to tell myself, Okay, I just need to make it from here to the
stop sign. Hmm. Right. And then I get to the stop sign like Okay, from here to the yellow car.
Yeah. Or one more block around the track. Yep. So I have to give myself these increments to
know that I have reached my goal. Yeah. And if it is a very short term goal. Yeah. And there
was no end in sight. Like you said, there was no end. It was just everyday rolling over. And your
end in sight was retirement like 35 years down the road. And that was a very dark hole to look
down for me.
Lance Foulis 14:06
Yeah, that oh, that's an abyss to look at. Yeah.
Shelby 14:09
So I learned about myself that, like with education that you just realized you have no more
coffee,
Lance Foulis 14:16
correct? Well, I was tea, like looked into my mug and like, Yep, it's
Shelby 14:19
peered on its face. True. So I realized that in education, you have those increments, you know, I
have to make it from here until Christmas break and then I get you know, some time to
decompress. And then I need to make it from here to spring break and then spring break to the
summer and then I get to start all over again. I get to look back and say okay, this didn't work
last year. What did I like that worked? What did I like that didn't work? You know, what can I
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tweak and then move forward? fresh, new faces, new people? Yeah. You know, new minds to
mold. Yeah, all that kind of stuff. So it is very increment driven in education. And that works for
me. Yeah. So At that point in time, there was no end in sight. And that was really hard for me to
kind of get through. And there was this constant comparison, which I also think is part of a
maturity thing. Yeah, I was in that, in that age where everyone else is doing it, everyone else is
winning, I have to do it and when to and so, and these are people that I was close to in college,
not just random people that went to the same university as me, but people that I spent time
with in college I was friends with. So there's that wanting to save face not wanting to, you
know, be the one who boughs out kind of situation,
Lance Foulis 15:35
which is really hard to your point at 23. Because you just you don't know what you don't know.
And it just would be so hard. Like, I mean, I can just I can totally just picture that see that in my
if that would if that had been my experience. Just Oh, everybody else seems to be doing great.
What's why? Why can't I? Why can't I? Right? And that being just a question in your face, right
would be exhausting? Yes.
Shelby 16:01
So I think also, like different teams were functioning differently 100% You know, depending on
who you had, in your upper levels, and who I had in my upper levels that were kind of helping
me manage really dictated my success. You know, Laura getting's was one of those people that
was super inspirational to me and very supportive for me and supportive of me during a time
that it was really difficult for me and so with her support, and guidance, I kind of made it
through a rough patch. Right. And that's when I was promoted to senior. Yep, at that point,
which was kind of the next Yeah,
Lance Foulis 16:40
cuz remember, there was so funny, you bring that up, and that instantly brings back memories
that you just brought up like the, the pressure, there was like, an unwell I don't want to even
say unspoken, but there was definitely a pressure to get to senior. And there was like a, like,
you kind of expected to be able to get there within a year, take a couple months. And if he had
didn't, it was kind of like why
Shelby 17:05
well and not to mention that when I first started everybody in program management had told
me and this was like a direct quote from multiple people. If you can make it in program
management for a year you can make it anywhere
Lance Foulis 17:15
that was like well known across the company.
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Shelby 17:17
I mean in across other companies like they were basically like if you can make it at this
company here in this specific role, then you can do you know, you can conquer world peace.
Yes. I mean, that's that was a well known fact. So it was to add that added pressure and then to
know that it was something of a feat in itself. Yes, it just conquer the role. But yes, it was you
want to make it to senior you want to get the laptop.
Lance Foulis 17:44
We talked about that with Natalie's like that way back, then having a laptop was a definite
mark of success. For sure in there. Because there was there were a couple seniors I didn't even
remember that that did have laptops and basically meant that you were good to travel. Cuz you
remember back then we did. We didn't do traveling. Yeah, on site audits and reissues. We
would go to the processor and audit things. And that was a mark. Especially like the first time
that you did it. Like that was like, Oh, you've got your own merit badge now. Yep. Yeah.
Shelby 18:18
So yeah, with with some some good management in place, at that point in time, I was able to
kind of make it through, learn what I was doing, get my bearings, people that came in and saw
that things. The way that we had been doing them weren't working, and kind of making some
adjustments for us was huge. Yeah. Because I got one client, specifically. And Steve, do you
receive? Yes, yes. Yes. Yes. So Steve, was my manager at that point? That's right. For a very
short period of time, but he handed me this plan. And he said, This is going to be just, you
know, collateral maintenance is what he said, no big deal. You're just going to send in a
collateral order for new issues. Once a month, like no big deal. Yeah. And we had expected to
have 4000 new accounts that first month. And so we only bought enough collateral to issue you
know, four or 5000. Give or take, and we turned around the next month, and we had 40,000
new accounts. Yep. 10 times what we were supposed to have, and we had no collateral. Yep.
And it was like a four week turnaround for credit cards to be made, which is fast, right?
Lance Foulis 19:28
In today's terms, that's a very fast turnaround for was for it was usually like four to eight
weeks. Okay, I was gonna say that was my point. It got up to like, 12 Yes, there was a supply
chain issue and it got to like 12 to 14.
Shelby 19:41
Yeah, so that became a very stressful client. For me very, very quickly. And it was supposed to
be like my easy peasy.
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Lance Foulis 19:48
Yeah. And then it just becomes this monster. And there's it's really hard to pivot. That's a fancy
fancy buzzword. It's, it's it's really hard to pivot because you're saying This client? Well, you can
try saying this client is actually really, really, really difficult. And but there's this history. No, it's
not. No, it's all all you have to do is just this little bit. I'm telling you, it's drowning me. Oh, you'll
be okay. Yeah.
Shelby 20:15
Yeah. So I mean, there were a lot of things that I think not necessarily were like already against
me, but things that made it a little bit more difficult for me to acclimate to the position itself.
When I first came in, you know, after about two years, I felt confident, okay, I know what I'm
doing. I can do this. And I think that's really when I started to find myself as a human being and
an adult. And you know, what I wanted I liked and I didn't like, that was when my husband and I
really started taking things a little bit further in our relationship. We got engaged. And it was
right before I decided to leave that role that we got married, right. And so God bless my
husband, he loves me so much. We got married. I locked it down. And then two days later, I
quit my job. I made sure I had that locked down.
Lance Foulis 21:13
Yeah. Yes, by the way, PS,
Shelby 21:17
I no longer have income. So I mean, that was a challenging time in life in itself. And I actually
stayed for three weeks after I give a you know, two weeks notice. But I stayed for three, three
weeks. And I really worked super, super hard during those three weeks. To pass Michael, the
binder.
Lance Foulis 21:36
Yeah, that was your book of business. Yeah, in a really good way, a really good way. You were
really, you were really focused on making sure that you set someone else up for success. Yes,
that was a big deal.
Shelby 21:48
It was a huge deal for me, because I knew what it was like to just be past something that was
nothing when you first started. And the clients that I was passing on, were ones that were
active every month with multiple programs, they were running, and very specific, intricate, you
know, idiosyncrasies that they wanted, specifically for that client. So I wanted to make sure
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that whoever was getting those clients was prepared in what they do every month. And so I
worked really hard in those three weeks. And I remember the day that I left, you all walked me
out to my car, Natalie, you Erin, Jen, Ryan, all walked me out to my car, and I was sobbing.
Lance Foulis 22:28
Oh, it was it was hard. Because we were all so tight. As like we went makes me choke up now
thinking about it. You know, we went through like, because we all like struggled in all of our
ways that we struggled with all the clients that we were supporting. And we all like went
through growing pains together. We went we did lunches together, we we vented together, we
talked about how we were struggling in our we were close with each other like we would go
out, you know, you, myself and our significant others would all get together occasionally. And
like have a good time. Like we'd go that do happy hours. So it wasn't just like coworkers. It was
like we were friends. We were besties we were work besties Yeah. And so like, yeah, I
remember walking you out and like it felt like a shot to the gut. To all of us.
Shelby 23:12
It felt like a real, goodbye. Yeah. And you know, going from every day, okay, we're in this
together, at least I have these people to help me through to really be like, Okay, I'm on my
own. And I have no idea what I'm going to do next. And all of these people are not going to be
right there. Yeah, you know, a cubicle over.
Lance Foulis 23:32
So yeah, let's Well, I mean, let's talk about that. Because I don't even think I knew that you
didn't know that you were gonna go back to school at this point. Oh, no, it was like a clean
break. You just knew I knew this wasn't for me. Yeah. And you're in a huge life transition. You
just got married.
Shelby 23:46
Let's mention that. The week that I got married. I also bought a home. Oh, that's right. I signed
my mortgage. You know, which I've never gone
Lance Foulis 23:55
through a mortgage signing before. You don't you don't know the full extent to what you're
doing when you because it's a it's a giant book of things to sign.
Shelby 24:06
Oh, yeah. And you're signing your life away. I mean, it's basically saying we will take your life if
you don't give us our mortgage payment. Yes, exactly. Right. It's really scary as the first time
homeowner you always feel
homeowner you always feel
Lance Foulis 24:16
like I should have I should have like I should have secured myself a lawyer to go through these
documents with me.
Shelby 24:22
I am not smart enough to be looking at this by myself. So that's your first home buying
experience buying experience. We signed on one Friday and moved in that weekend and then
we got married on the following Friday. Oh my gosh. That's crazy. Which I don't recommend
anyone doing buying a home and planning a wedding at the same time. It was the worst it
Lance Foulis 24:42
self folks out there. Don't do that.
Shelby 24:45
Don't do it. Don't do it. Just
Lance Foulis 24:46
two separate times are your guyses wedding was really beautiful. We got to go to your to your
wedding. Erin was at my wedding. That's right here it was in your wedding. And we had our
second we were talking about this before we started recording Our second child, Connor. Boy,
he he had just been born. So I was holding in less than a month. Yes. I was holding him during
the whole ceremony. He was wearing a tuxedo onesie. Fair remember? Oh, wow, I never would
be able to remember that. That's, that's a mom memory. Yes, it is. Um, yeah. So that was fun.
Like, we had that wonderful memory. And then yeah, so So you literally went from job to no job
house responsibility. Marriage. Tell me about the transition.
Shelby 25:33
So it was really hard for me, because it was the first time that I had ever been without a job
since I was like 16 years old. And I grew up in a family where it was instilled in us Don't quit
your job until you have another job to fall back on. And so it felt like a really big failure that I
was leaving without anything to fall back on. Geez. And so it was really hard. And I admittedly, I
spent a couple of weeks, maybe months on my couch, just kind of wallowing. Yeah, my
sorrows. Trying to figure out if I didn't like this, what would I like, and I applied for a lot of jobs
that were very similar to what I was doing beforehand. And I kept having these conversations
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with my husband and with my sisters and my friends, like, why are you applying for jobs that
are the same as what you were doing before? If you didn't like that, then we need to find
something different. So
Lance Foulis 26:24
how would you answer that question?
Shelby 26:26
So I couldn't answer that question. I don't know. That was my answer. I don't I don't know why I
keep applying for these jobs. Yeah, you know, it's the exact same job I was doing before. But
that's what I felt like I was qualified to do. Yeah, with a Communication Studies degree. And
then this experience, this is what I felt I fit into cookie cutter wise. So I decided that in the
interim, when I was trying to figure out, okay, I'm not gonna apply for any more of these jobs,
because clearly, I don't like it. And it's not a fit for me, but I need to figure out what I'm doing.
And I need to make some money in the process. My mom, who has been in the education field
for now, 25 years, had said, you have a bachelor's degree, come and substitute teach, while
you're trying to figure it out. It's a daily, you know, paycheck, your daily, you know, pay, it's
easy, you can, you know, you can do it. Yeah. And then you can have time to figure out what
your what your what you want to do. And so, I started doing that. And honestly, when I was
going into college, I had thought, I really like education. And every aptitude test I took in high
school said, you know, teaching was one of those Yep. On the list. Yep. And I did Junior
Achievement. When I was working at our organization. Do you remember that at all? So it was a
business class, essentially, that you went into different middle schools. And you taught once a
week, a class to like sixth and seventh grade, you
Lance Foulis 27:53
did that while you were at the company? I didn't, I don't remember that.
Shelby 27:56
Yeah. And I loved it. I taught at New Albany Middle School. And one other one, and I could see
escaping me right now. But you taught them about credit. And you know, all these different,
you know, economics, just basic and reporting for kids to learn about, they gave you a
curriculum, it was the Junior Achievement curriculum. And you just went in and taught the pre
planned lessons, but I loved it. And then I started substitute teaching, and I fell in love with it all
over again. And I thought to myself, if I love being in a different classroom, that's not my own.
With new kids, every day, then I would really love to have my own space with kids that I could
really build a relationship with. Yeah. And that's what I loved about it, you know, was building
the relationship with the kids and joking around with them and, you know, all that kind of stuff.
So I tried the elementary school. I subbed in elementary for like, a day. No, this is not for me.
The Little People are not my forte. Did you
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Lance Foulis 28:59
substitute in in elementary, okay. Yeah, I
Shelby 29:03
served a couple days in elementary and it was just not not where it was at for my kid. I would
have a hard time too. Yeah. Love my own little person. Mm hmm. And, you know, other people I
do love children, maybe in smaller Yes.
Lance Foulis 29:18
groupings. You know,
Shelby 29:19
I just don't do the whole like Tommy's touching me and snotty nose and, you know, hold hands
while we take a potty break. And that just was not where my Yeah, my groove was, yeah,
you're Yes, my age. And then I tried middle school, and I was like, Okay, this is a little better. I
like this, but they're very, like, emotional. You know, one kid had made fun of another kid and
said that the other kid thought that I was cute. And embarrass him and he started crying. And
then I felt like I don't know what to do. Because if I let go over and I console him that it just
makes it worse, right? Don't and I feel very cold hearted. So it's just very awkward situation for
me. Yeah. And then I found high school and I was like, these are my people. Yeah, they got my
humor, I could tell them to just go away for a minute when I needed a second.
Lance Foulis 30:07
And this is still just you're substituting stuff, just figuring
Shelby 30:10
it out. Wow. And so then I started looking into programs of how I could get my teaching license.
And that's when I found Ashland University's bachelor Plus program. And they worked with me
in the classes that I had for my undergrad. Because, again, while I was an undergrad, I took a
lot of education electives, because it was something that I was interested in interesting. And I
really felt like, and I think I've told you this before. I feel like looking back when I was in the
corporate role, there were different points throughout. Where God kept saying to me, you're on
the wrong path. You're on the wrong road, you need to turn right. Mm hmm. And there were
different points, where it would be very, very clear, like you need to turn and I would just say,
Nope, I got to make this work. I started on this road. This is the road we're taking. There are no
alternates. Yeah. And then eventually it got to a point where he just put a dead end. Yeah. And
he was like, Nope, you only go right. Yeah. And so then when I turned right, the road was a lot
less bumpy and a lot more enjoyable. And it was really hard. Because when I started going to
school, back to school, I was substitute teaching full time, so five days a week. And then I
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decided I was going to coach cheerleading. Oh, that's right. I kind of remember that. Yeah. So I
was coaching some of the kids that I was subbing because I was a long term sub. And I was
also working at roosters at that time, I was waitressing
Lance Foulis 31:44
back to do, because you had done that I asked life. Yeah.
Shelby 31:48
So I went back just because it was extra money. And you know, I had a new mortgage and all
that kind of stuff. So I was working effectively like three jobs. Yeah. And then going to school
full time for a year and a half. So it was a grind for sure.
Lance Foulis 32:01
When did you go to classes.
Shelby 32:03
So it was a lot of like, very self paced. But it was all online. And so I would kind of get the
syllabus and it would say these things are due, you know, this week, you need to read this. And
then this paper is due on Sunday, and you have a discussion board post and two responses
kind of thing. So nights, weekends when I wasn't at a game or at a at a practice. Yeah, that was
when I was doing the work.
Lance Foulis 32:32
So what did it feel like? Did you feel like motivated? Did you just get into a little like a groove
and just head down?
Shelby 32:38
Yeah, I mean, I think I saw the end, I saw what I could have at the end. And that was really
inspiring to me plus what I was learning, I really loved. Yeah. So
Lance Foulis 32:48
that was that was you were you were like really enjoying the content of the classes that you
were taking?
Shelby 32:53
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Shelby 32:53
Yeah, because I didn't I had so many credit hours for my undergrad in English. Yeah, I didn't
really have to take a ton of English classes, more of it was, you know, my methods and
instructional, like the pedagogy type classes that I had to take. So I was really learning what
that word mean. I was learning how
Lance Foulis 33:10
to while you were talking, I was searching my brain. And then I realized nope, I'm not going to
find it rotary have Yeah.
Shelby 33:16
So basically, the the method of teaching, okay. I was, I was learning how to teach not
necessarily what to teach, but but how to go about it, different protocols, that we use activities
that you can do with the kids to get to a deeper level of learning, and you know, those types of
things. So creating lesson plans, and what goes into that, and what is a 504 plan versus an IEP
plan and, you know, different things that you need to know on the day to day when you're in
the classroom. Yeah, I will say the best preparation for having my own classroom was being in
classrooms as a substitute teacher that I couldn't get in a classroom on my own. It's just the
experience of being with kids. Yep. So I mean, learning classroom management was huge for
me,
Lance Foulis 34:08
tell me more about classroom management,
Shelby 34:11
you know, creating an environment where you are the authority of the classroom, but then you
also are creating an environment where students can lead their own learning. Hmm. So I am
kind of the facilitator. Yeah, but I'm also the authority of what happens in this classroom. So I
am responsible and liable for all of the 30 bodies in my classroom right now. And I have to be
able to assert myself as that authority in that classroom. And so effectively managing the
behavior of my students Yeah, is something that some teachers struggle with. It's something
that some teachers come into naturally. And every year it changes and every class period that
changes my methods for every class change, because it's a different set of students. Yeah, and
it can change if a couple of students are absent that day, or you know, I Get students that I
have to watch for another teacher who's out that day, right? I have to cover a class for another
teacher. And so I get additional students in. So you have to be constantly willing to adjust
based on what's going on in your classroom. Got it. And not every day is me sitting in front of
students and lecturing to them. And they're just silently taking notes, right? It's you're doing
gallery walks in your classroom, and you're doing interactive activities, where they're talking to
each other, or, you know, doing group work or reading aloud. And so being able to manage
their behavior along with instilling the content, and developing the content is its own separate
skill,
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Lance Foulis 35:42
no doubt, no doubt. So when you're substitute teaching, are you only doing certain subjects?
Shelby 35:48
No, I was in I was in every subject. Most of the time, though, it was they already knew what
they were doing. Okay. And I was just kind of there to manage, collect everything they were
doing since you know, I wasn't really responsible for teaching content, especially in high school.
More. So in elementary, you might be like going through specific activities with them. Yeah. But
it was kind of pass out a worksheet, you know, now when I'm out and I have a sub in my
classroom, everything's electronic. So I say check the agenda on Google Classroom, or
whatever platform we're using. And so for my notes for the substitute, you know, their agendas
are on the virtual platform, have them check in and everything is hyperlinked to the documents
that can turn it in electronically. So they just have to kind of like sit there and watch the kids
make sure that they're not murdering each other.
Lance Foulis 36:40
So that's fair, when you were going to school, did you figure out what you wanted to teach?
Shelby 36:45
I always knew I wanted English. Okay, you always
Lance Foulis 36:48
knew from from day one, but I did have to decide what
Shelby 36:51
level and I chose seven through 12. Because that was where my niche was my niche, your
niche? was?
Lance Foulis 37:00
Was it? Well, we can get into that in a second. That's, that's a later question. I want to know. So
I'm, I'm just picturing you. You're newly married, which is his own challenge you have you still
have responsibilities, house payments, and everything else. Tell me about how the relationship
stuff worked out? Like how did your new marriage? How was it during this time? How
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Shelby 37:20
did it survive? Yeah. A lot of grace, I will say, for my husband, a lot of understanding that, you
know, I Yes, had quit my job and put us in a financial, more of a financial burden situation. But I
think he really saw and understood that I was trying my best to contribute as much as I could,
to our financial goals and our financial situation. So he was very understanding provided a lot of
opportunity for me when he could to have kind of space to get my stuff done. And kind of he
took on a lot more than I was able to at that point in time. So I have to give a lot of credit to, to
my husband, I had amazing support from my family and my friends, whenever I kind of needed
something. You know, but it was really just time management. And oh, yeah, it was just a grind.
So he understood that was very supportive. Yeah, throughout that whole thing, but it was hard.
I mean, we had to make some financial choices. And looking back, we both say that it was only
by the grace of God that we were able, you know, to make it and for some reason, we never, it
never got to a point where we couldn't pay a bill, which was very strange, because, you know, I
was making a good salary that I
Lance Foulis 38:42
just left that you it's not a it's, it's the type of salary that's not easy to replace, right? It's not,
Shelby 38:47
it's not easy to walk away from. So, you know, I cut our income pretty much in half. And
somehow, we got through, we got we got through the period, whether I mean, there were some
things that were divine in those in those months, like, you know, we would get a refund check
for something that happened to be very similar to a random bill or an increase in our water bill
that we weren't expecting. And oh, yeah, those things that we couldn't really account for. But,
you know, my husband and I are Christians. And so we attribute that to, you know, just God
looking out and yeah, and being a part of our lives and yeah, and that kind of stuff. So, it was
hard. Yep. But I think it actually helped us in our marriage. Major, stronger. We Yeah, we got a
lot closer. We learned how to manage things together.
Lance Foulis 39:41
Yeah. So Yeah. When did when did your daughter come? Come into the picture?
Shelby 39:47
So she came in, I got my job with my current district. And then at the end of that first year of
teaching, I found out I was pregnant with my daughter got it. And then I delivered her the
beginning of my second year teaching. So I always laugh and like joke with my colleagues
about how I've never had a full actual, like normal year of teaching because my first year, I had
some wonky stuff going on at the beginning. And then I had, I had gotten pregnant with my
daughter, and I was super sick all the time. You know, from February until May, which was the
very end of that year. And then the second year, I was out for 12 weeks on maternity leave, I
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was like waddling around like a penguin, you know, for the first couple of months of school. And
then I was out for a while. So that wasn't really a normal year. And then my third year, in
March, everything shut down.
Lance Foulis 40:44
Yeah. So shut down. COVID. Yeah,
Shelby 40:48
yeah. So my first year was the 1718. school year. My second year was the 18 19/3. year when I
had come back from having my daughter was I was like a skinny, my first normal year, right. I
got it together. I know what I'm doing. I know what to expect. And then March happened, and it
was like, Okay, we're going on spring break. And then it was like, just kidding. We're getting an
extra week of spring break, who? And then it was like, Can we come back in? Yeah, we have to
still have to be inside. Oh, God don't have to be inside. That sounds awful. And so then we
started teaching the rest of the year, virtually, yeah. From Home, which was hard in itself. We
were living with my parents at that point, because we had decided to sell our home and build a
house. And so, you know, teaching from home with my toddler and my parents all in one house.
Yeah. And my mom is education as well. She was home all day every day.
Lance Foulis 41:42
Your mom's at the same school? No, no. What does she teach?
Shelby 41:45
She's actually the principal secretary. Oh, yeah. So like run stuff. Anybody who's education
knows that? Like the secretaries run stuff?
Lance Foulis 41:54
Okay. Got it. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. And she, she did that your whole life? Okay. Yeah. So
you I mean, you had like a window into education during this whole time. So that makes sense.
So, yeah, I mean, I'm just fascinated by well, okay, so I'm back up, we had a really hard year in
2019. And it is miraculous that we made it out of that time. And then the aftermath of that,
trying to pick up the pieces of that 2019 year, Kim's house got really bad. And during that year,
and then, and then there was a lot of financial impact that happened on the back end of that.
So it is really amazing. The support that we had, and however, we made it through that as
definitely divine, because we shouldn't have made it through that. So it's really fascinating.
When you think about the hard times that you walk through, that you go through, you really
need to look and see where you're being protected. And where. Yeah, that it could be it could
be worse.
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Shelby 43:00
Yeah. Where that grace is being extended? Yes. Yeah.
Lance Foulis 43:02
Yeah. So tell me more about? Yeah, just the adjustment.
Shelby 43:07
So then my, my so my third year, we, you know, back half of that year, March to May was all
virtual, and then we started the year, you know, 2020, all virtual. So go, you know, started that
year at my parents house, moved into our new house in November was still all virtual. When I
was supposed to come back to school after kind of the work going back, hybrid learning, hybrid
learning. My husband got COVID. And so I was home for 14 days, again, still working from
home. So it was like, Yes, I get to go back to work. No, I don't. So that was a hard blow. But
then that fourth year of teaching, so my last year of teaching was a hybrid. So I had a handful
or more of kids in my classroom. And then I had the rest of them virtually on Zoom. So I had my
classroom setup kind of flipped backwards, I had a big, what are called clever touch, or Smart
Touch boards in the back. And I would have, it was like a giant computer screen essentially, is
what it is. And so I would have my kids on Zoom, pulled up. And I had my desks for my students
turn to the back of the room. And by camera at the very back of the room. So I could see my
kids on Zoom and my kids in front of me at the same time. Oh my god. So having to manage
working with students virtually online, manage like a chat room that's going on on Zoom. And
then Manage students in the classroom and trying to give one on one attention to those
students in both realms. was incredibly difficult. And there were a lot of districts that even went
on strike because they were like, This is not manageable.
Lance Foulis 44:47
Right. The teacher sounds like you're doing three jobs. At the same time.
Shelby 44:50
It was really really hard to do both and but we gave you know, we had to give the kids the
option. They have to get an education and a lot of people it's they still weren't comfortable
coming back into the building. Yeah. And then to do all of that fully masked right now. And it
was it was,
Lance Foulis 45:09
you guys have the most challenging conditions between people
Shelby 45:12
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know, they had to be every other desk. Sure, at least. And, you know, maintaining six feet, all
that kind of stuff. So it was really, really difficult. It was hard, it was hard for the kids, it was
hard for us
Lance Foulis 45:27
what's really gonna say what have you? What do you feel like you've noticed the psychological
impact on that age group going through COVID.
Shelby 45:35
It's significant, the psychological and educational. So part of it was that I taught to black
screens 90% of the time, because they would not turn their camera on. It was hard. You know, I
would just see their little name. So there were kids that came back to school this year. And
they're like, Hey, Miss Smith.
Lance Foulis 45:54
You're like, I don't know who you are, who you are.
Shelby 45:57
I am so and so. And I'm like, oh, that's what you look like. Wow. So I mean, it was crazy. Them
coming back this year, and, and getting to see who they are. But I couldn't tell if they were
asleep. Yeah, you know, I would have to yell their name a couple of times before they might
respond in the chat.
Lance Foulis 46:13
Yeah. But oh, in the chat, so not even in microphone very rarely.
Shelby 46:18
Very rarely would they?
Lance Foulis 46:20
Just that just sounds like morale in the gutter.
Shelby 46:23
Mm hmm. It was it was. It was really hard for them. Because it's a lot of a lot of self
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Mm hmm. It was it was. It was really hard for them. Because it's a lot of a lot of self
management and personal responsibility that they have to take and waking themselves up and
getting themselves to their zoom class and, you know, not having their favorite Netflix show or,
you know, there would kids be kids that I could hear when they would unmute themselves
every once in a while I would hear their video games and the clickety clack. No.
Lance Foulis 46:52
It actually hear the audio of the video game. Yeah. Would you would you hear the the the
controller noises?
Shelby 46:57
Yep. Oh, wow. Yep. And then I would have kids that were really funny. And they would say, I'll
be right back. I'm gonna go cook some eggs.
Lance Foulis 47:04
Well, hot in the middle of class, middle class. No, I just I mean, like, I can't picture. It's been a
long time since I've been in high school. I can't. And I was homeschooled. So it was a you had
to do things like on your own, like self initiative and everything. But I, I can't imagine just being
told Yeah, you're not allowed to come back to school, and then being home every day,
especially if you're like in your room or something. So then you spend the whole night in your
room, then you spend the whole day going to school in your room. And then,
Shelby 47:35
so I really tried tried to encourage my students to find a different place in their house. That
wasn't their bed. Yeah. Because when I am in my bed, I want to nap. Yes. Like, my bed is for
sleeping. Yes. So a lot of them have that same mentality. So they would wake up at eight
o'clock in the morning and join my class, and then I would hear them snoring. Oh, my God, they
just wouldn't be there. Yeah, at all. Yeah. Or it would come the end of class. And it would be
time for them to switch and login to their next class. And they would still be lingering on my
screen because they were asleep and hadn't so then I would have to like, kick them off. Yeah.
So it was really hard. It was hard for us to encourage the kids and to inspire the kids and to
keep, you know, on track with them. But there was this, like, social emotional drainage that
happened with them, it just they need to be with each other. They need that social aspect, that
interaction, right, and they weren't getting it. And it was really, really hard. So we came in this
year, knowing that we had a deficit of learning to fill, no doubt early on.
Lance Foulis 48:37
So like, what's the situation now in the schools? Are you still like is it still hybrid is it still masks.
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Shelby 48:45
So at the beginning of the year, we gave students an option to do a Virtual Academy, which
was essentially they would be all online, but that would be managed by a separate group. So I
was only responsible for the kids that were in my classroom got it. However, if there were kids
who weren't doing what they were supposed to and keeping up and you know, after the first
quarter, they were failing, that kind of stuff, then they were removed from the virtual option
and brought back into the building. Got it. So we don't have very many, if any, that are still in
that virtual option. I mean, it's a very small percentage, a lot smaller than it was at the
beginning of the year. Got it. And so we've had full class, full class sizes. And then just this past
week, we removed the mask mandate, which I'm actually surprised. Yeah, I'm surprised that
the number of kids who are still wearing masks, I'm also surprised at the number of kids who
are wearing masks like as a chin strap.
Lance Foulis 49:42
Yeah, right.
Shelby 49:43
It's like, like, what's the point of that? There's just no point. They're like, well, it's in case
somebody like starts coughing. It's already too late dude.
Lance Foulis 49:49
So is it is it is it a yes. Is it a situation where they're not mandated anymore? But the kids are
still concerned. And or maybe the family answer could be probably both. It just depends. Yeah.
Shelby 50:04
I think it's interesting. The ones who just like wear it, you know, as an accent, accessory now?
Lance Foulis 50:11
Well, I mean, I'm, I'm curious about that too, because at this point, you have people that have
been doing it for two years at the age levels that they've been doing it and like it. How much
has the mask? And things like the mask social distancing just become a part of right. And
because,
Shelby 50:29
well, I have found during the day, right or doing it when I went the first day that we went
without mask, which was I think, last Monday, kids started coming in my room, and I
immediately thought, oh, my gosh, where's my mask? You know? Yeah. Oh, my gosh. And then
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I thought, Oh, I don't have to have it. Yeah. And so there, you know, it was it's mental. And still,
I mean, a week later, I'm still like, like,
Lance Foulis 50:51
a type of conditioning that almost. Yeah, so even now, like a week later, like, it's still thought
you'll Oh, wait. Oh, no. Yeah. Oh, gosh, yeah. I just said. I mean, I'm just I'm just picturing it. I
can't imagine being 17 years old and like,
Shelby 51:09
wearing a mask be what your learning experience has been for the last two years?
Lance Foulis 51:13
Or, I mean, I feel real bad. I think my niece was in this one of my nieces was in this boat senior
year is when it all went down. No graduation.
Shelby 51:20
Nope. No prom. No prom. Yeah, that means something. That class of 2020. Really, really took it
hard. Yeah. And I had a lot of students that were, you know, crying to me on during classes.
This isn't fair. Why did this have to happen to us?
Lance Foulis 51:39
Yeah, like that's, I mean, how could you not think that like every class before us has been able
to do everything in now my class doesn't? For some people, that's a really significant deal. Oh,
yeah.
Shelby 51:50
Because we did have a virtual graduation that they could attend. It was like a drive thru. So
there, you couldn't have anybody there. But you could show up. You grabbed your diploma. You
took a picture and it was all live streamed. Yeah, your family could watch you walk across the
fake stage.
Lance Foulis 52:05
You have this idea of what this event is going to be like, and you earned it. Like you spent four
years doing work and there I can just picture like certain kids that I knew that did really good in
school, and that was like they worked at it. Oh, yeah. And they got good grades and everything.
It's like I I did it I accomplished it. I'm going to go walk armor. I always homeschooled so I didn't
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do this whole walking thing. But all my friends went to Dublin sewed or Kilburn. So I went to all
their stuff. And I just remember like, good gracious Dublin site. I think it was like four hours of
listening the name calls to get through the whole class, something like that. But yeah, there's
just this, this thing about i i conquered this thing. Yeah. It's a huge accomplishment. Yes.
Making it through high school. And then and then No, you don't graduate, even parties, right
graduation parties. That was a huge event back in the day when you go to all your friends
graduate
Shelby 53:00
that point. I mean, you it was mandated that you could have not have more than 10 people in
the same time. So no
Lance Foulis 53:06
graduation party. It's so that's so I'm, I'm I've said this on a few different podcasts. We've been
talking about this kind of stuff. But I'm really curious because I don't think we know the total
social impact or anything like that, for the generation that went through this, whether it's high
school or college, like just younger people in general elementary school, like what is the
impact? Because two years is a long time very long time at that age. So. So anyway, how much
now that the mask mandate is gone? Do you feel like what percentage normal does it feel to
you?
Shelby 53:41
It feels like we're on our way back to a normal. I feels like the whole year that we've been
slowly working our way back to what we used to consider normal. You know, there are new
things in place now that are the new normal. But even that, like the new normal was like back
in school, but with masks, so the oddball out was the person that like didn't have their mask on
in the hallway. And then I would be asking, Hey, do you have mask? Mm hmm. And they go,
yeah, it's right here. And they like put it on lately. And me, I'm always, always the bearer of bad
news. You have to be transcon. Yeah, it's terrible. You're gonna have to learn to say I have to
play math. Yeah. So even you know, that shift now has kind of thrown a wrench in things where
we're just kind of like I tried. I'm catching myself not telling students. Do you have a math
course this right. It's crazy. Wild, but it is it's becoming a new normal. And, you know, getting
back to some semblance of what we were before and that's really refreshing. I think, for a lot of
our students. Oh, yeah.
Lance Foulis 54:42
When's graduation this year? This year? It's the end of May into May. Okay. All right. Yeah. So
Shelby 54:47
last year, we had it but it was outside. It was beautiful day. I think people felt a lot more
comfortable being outside versus being in a confined space. So that was really nice. You
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comfortable being outside versus being in a confined space. So that was really nice. You
Lance Foulis 55:01
Okay, last couple questions here. I would love to know if you could sit down with your 23 year
old self that's been working where we worked for a year, what advice would you give yourself?
Because there's not gonna be you know, there's people in your position, or years to school four
or five years to school to study a thing, they got the job to realize it's not what they want to do.
Yes. What would you say to yourself?
Shelby 55:26
I would say, first of all, I would tell myself, it's okay. Hmm. It's okay, that you're not, you're not
good at this thing. Or it's okay, that this isn't what's working out for you. That's okay. Because I
think for me, it was really hard to get to that point to know that it was it was alright. And it
would be okay. Yeah. One, I would say that there is something out there that you are meant
for, you know, that is better suited for you. And it's not, there's no point in being miserable. Oh,
gosh, you know, what I've learned is that life is supposed to be happy. And if it's not, then there
are things that can change to make it happier for you. And so it takes a lot of personal
reflection, and taking a deep look inward to see what is the problem? Is it the job? Is it me? Is it
you know, who I'm with? romantically? Is it, you know, that I'm allowing toxic people to be a
part of my life? What is the problem? And whatever that is, it can be fixed. You know, I think a
refreshing thought for me when I was in that role was I had to remind myself, this isn't the end
of the world. Yeah, you know, and a lot of times in those roles because there was a lot of
money riding on some of the programs we were working on and some of the clients that we
were working with, it felt like it was the end of the world
Lance Foulis 56:54
felt like you were executing brain surgery on some really make it and then you're like, nope,
Shelby 57:00
right. So what I will tell you, I mean, if you are a brain surgeon or a you know cardiothoracic
surgeon then yes, it is a life or death situation. In my role. It was not it was a making it out to
be and so I needed to realize that it's a job. Yeah. And life should be so much more than a job.
Now as an educator, that's a huge part of my life, and a huge part of my life that I love.
Because I love working with my kids. I love building relationships with them. I love having one
on one talks where they can come to me and and cry or laugh or joke around or you know, I
used to dance down the aisle ways that at our building and I dance in my classroom just about
every day I will put on 90s music and we will jam out why we're doing essay revision.
Lance Foulis 57:47
What's your favorite song to do this to? Oh,
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Shelby 57:49
I mean anything Whitney Houston 90s r&b? Can anybody
Lance Foulis 57:56
give me an example of 90s? r&b That's not my genre.
Shelby 57:59
Why? Oh, it's not what? I don't know. You guys metal
Lance Foulis 58:03
was my John. Oh, dear.
Shelby 58:06
That's what eyes. Yeah, I mean, you have Whitney Houston, Mariah Carey.
Lance Foulis 58:14
Oh, Mariah Carey. Got it.
Shelby 58:16
You got Bell Biv DeVoe. You got color me badd? All for one? Boys to Men? Shout out to boys. To
me. It looks like you too. Oh, yeah. You know, I had a couple. But like 90s, early 2000s was
yeah, my general feeling. Yes. So my kids are always trying to get me like up on the latest law?
Or does something. You know, they're like, Have you heard of the baby? And I'm like, Who?
Lance Foulis 58:42
Now? Is this on a compact disk to still have a CD collection?
Shelby 58:45
No, this is like Pandora or Spotify. So yeah, but all jam out my classroom to my kids and just
creating a space where we can have fun. And I like to take what I've learned in terms of how I
consider what I that I didn't make it or couldn't make it work at my corporate job. Yeah, I like to,
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I'm very open with my students about that. And that it's okay to fail as long as you try to fail
forward. Yeah, so that's a big buzzword in my classroom is that we try and fail forward, you
may have failed this essay. But let's look at how we can revise it to make it better. Or let's take
what we've learned from this and move it to the next. The next thing, you're not always gonna
get a win at everything. Even those people who look like they're winning all the time, because
they failed a lot. It's because they failed a lot. Yeah. Or they're failing and they're just not
highlighting that on Instagram. Yeah, absolutely. You know, this day and social media,
everything is, you know, I get to pick and choose what I want people to see. And that can be
very deceiving. Yes, and dangerous and dangerous. So you know, making sure that they
understand that everyone has pitfalls. And it's what you do with that. That's most important.
How do you fail forward? How do you move on from this to make yourself better?
Lance Foulis 59:56
And I love that. Yeah, I mean, the Falling failing forward. That's so key, I always such a, I can't
fail. I've got a, I've got to get this thing done. It's like what you're describing is a lot of like what
I went through when I was in aviation school at at OSU when it came to the point where I wasn't
going to do it anymore. And I knew it was incredibly devastating. And I did not go through
probably the next 10 years very gracefully. Because I that was my identity up to that point.
Yeah,
Shelby 1:00:26
I actually used you as an example in my class the other day, you did I did, we were talking
about, you know, picking colleges and under, you know, figuring out what you wanted to do if
college was the right thing, or what major it was it you know, all that kind of stuff. And students
were asking me questions like, well, if I go in as a business major, but I decide that's not what I
want to do. Do I have to stick with that? No, right? We talked about all those things. This is your
time to figure it out. And I said, that doesn't end after college. Right. So I said for me, you know,
I worked five years in a genre or a thank you, industry that I wasn't cut out for. And it took me
five years to figure out this is not where I belong. And then I figured it out. And I'm so much
happier. And you're okay. And I'm okay. And I said and you know, I have this friend that I
worked with in marketing, and he went to school for aviation. And yeah, I said, and then, you
know, I'm pretty sure right about the time you graduated, was 2000 1am i 911. Yeah, it was
Lance Foulis 1:01:23
that was so I 11 happened probably a year before I went into flight school. Okay, so I was all
like, I can still do this. I'll be fine. It'll be it'll be fine. We'll bounce back. I can go into debt for
aviation. I'm going to be a pilot. Yeah, matter what,
Shelby 1:01:39
right? Oh, well, it'll all work out. Oh, I didn't know. And that's okay.
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Lance Foulis 1:01:46
And boy, did I need somebody like you to be like, it's okay. Here's how you can fail for x. I didn't
really
Shelby 1:01:53
well. And I said what we had people who were in our wasn't Starla like a English major or
something. Did she? I didn't know what she did. I want to say somebody else in that row was
like English education or just like an English major. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And was working in
marketing, you know? Yeah. So I said, just because you picked a path. Right now, when you're
2122 years old, and you have no idea what you want in life. Yeah. Doesn't mean that's what
you have to stick towards. So you were one of my examples as well. That's
Lance Foulis 1:02:22
awesome. I'm glad I could be and we saw how successful you are. Oh, thank you. I kind of Yes, I
made it. Appreciate that. I did i Well, I think it's more about that Providence thing that we were
talking about. Somehow, the path ended up working out. And it wasn't by my design. It was
definitely by, in my opinion, God's design, because I shouldn't be where I am right now. There's
so many things that should have taken me out. It should have taken us out. But it didn't. Yeah,
we. And we made it and we're here. And that's so much to be thankful for. Okay, last question.
What would you say to, again? Well, an adult who's in the situation? And they're like, Yeah,
that's me. I'm doing a thing. I'm not happy. I can remember when I was a teller at a bank. In
college, there was a lady who came through who talked to me about her husband, who was a
CPA. And it was tax time. It was like January or February, and she just like, Oh, he's this is his
least favorite time of year. And me being a college student didn't know anything. I'm like, oh,
causal winter. He doesn't like winter. She's like, No, it's like tax time. And I didn't get it. And so
she like explains
Shelby 1:03:30
that as a CPA, you would want that to be like your favorite time.
Lance Foulis 1:03:34
Yes. But he hated being a tax person. He hated taxes. And he hated. He hated the profession.
But she made a statement because she was older. So I knew that he clearly was been doing
this for several years. He's only got five years until he retires. So he literally did what you
described that you didn't do he just stay kept going, kept going. And every single beginning of
the year, probably just borderline serious depression, hated life. I can't imagine doing that. So
talk, because there is there is you mentioned a couple things. So like the looking inward, and
being like, just looking at that mess, it feels like a nest at that point. And then taking that
journey to now I know what I want to do. This is what I'm really passionate about. So how would
you advise somebody that's in a situation of looking at their nest, they don't know what the
passion is yet, but how to maybe just navigate through that.
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Shelby 1:04:35
I would say, start trying things, whether it's like trying it as a hobby first, or, you know, Hey,
this looks really fun. Or, you know, a person who's very similar to me is is doing this and really
loves it. Let me go see what it's about. You know, we all have days off. We all have weekends.
You know, whether you work in the evenings or work in the daytime, you have some time in
between we're not working 24 hours a day. seven days a week, right? Take that time to do
some research and try some new things. And, you know, if you are a person that's like, I'm
stuck in the screw and I five years, I'm just gonna stick it out. Good for you. Good for you that
you're gonna stick it out for those five years, what I would suggest is finding something to
offset that misery in your job, right where to put that. So find a hobby, find something that
you're interested in, you know, whatever that is for you. Find something that's that's offsetting
it, and make it that your job is the 20% of your life. So instead of looking at the 8020, in terms
of the full job, look at 8020 in terms of your life, yeah, 80% of my life I love and I do the things
that I love, and I'm engaged in the things that I love. And then yeah, 20% of the time, I have to
go to work.
Lance Foulis 1:05:44
Yeah. And you're okay. And you're okay. Yeah, that's good, shall we? I can't thank you enough
for coming on.
Shelby 1:05:50
Thanks for having me. Absolutely. I
Lance Foulis 1:05:51
hope we get to do it again soon. Yeah, definitely.
Shelby 1:05:53
Alright, folks, we're happy hours.
Lance Foulis 1:05:56
Yeah. More happier. Happy hour right now.
Shelby 1:05:59
230. So it's a little early, but we could we'll make
Lance Foulis 1:06:02
it worse. It's a Saturday we can make it work. That's awesome. All right, everybody. Thanks so
much for listening. We'll see you next time.
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