Quick Note: this conversation contains jagged edges, pregnant pauses and tattered ends. While the transcript is here for those that want to read it, we invite you to listen to the recording (if possible). If you don’t have the substack app, you can listen here.
Nkem Ndefo (she/they), MSN, CNM, RN, is the founder of Lumos Transforms and creator of The Resilience Toolkit. She is known for her unique ability to connect with people of all types by holding powerful healing spaces, weaving complex concepts into accessible narratives, and creating synergistic and collaborative learning communities that nourish people’s innate capacity for healing, wellness, and connection. Nkem serves on the founding advisory council of Land Clinic and is a dear friend.
Anastasia:
Well would it be okay to ask you to do just a quick introduction? There's a lot I can share about you but maybe just anything you'd like to share for the substack?
Nkem:
I've been calling myself lately, a liberatory change alchemist but sometimes alchemy gives the feeling of like metal, right? A metal cold metal feeling, maybe it smells like sulfur but this is an alchemy that has blood and soil in it. So I play in the areas of trauma and resilience, and stress and wounding, and healing at different scales from the very intimate and intrapersonal and the relational to big systems and structures, across geography, across identities to develop and test out different approaches. Yeah. As my friend Farzana says that Healing Justice London, rehearsing freedoms.
Anastasia:
What I just want to note that when I think about the word alchemical, I have like, I have a body reaction of tasting metal tasting blood. So when you said soil and blood that tracks for me too. I think it would be helpful to begin is to just have you describe what you think a healthy boundary is?
Nkem:
Oh, I'm going to question the word healthy.
Anastasia:
Good question.
Nkem:
And maybe reframe that as a supportive boundary, a nurturing boundary, a protective boundary appropriately. So, I think of boundaries as responsive, limits of what we will or will not tolerate. I think of them as semi permeable membranes. Like, it's not a wall per se, right? It's semi permeable. You can respond to the environment like a contact lens, lets in oxygen, and moisture to the eye but you cut onions and you don't quite get the onion in your eye, you know. And boundaries are not demands on other people. They're not rules for other people to follow. They are not even expectations, it's just, I will. If this happens, I will do X Y or Z or if this doesn't happen, I will do X Y or Z and so they are personal. I think of boundaries as qite upersonal Yeah. And that's it. Personal sense, right? That's an interpersonal sense of boundaries but the even intrapersonal right? Like how I care for myself, right? Like what are the boundaries I have abound? Commitments, often they are commitments. You can be commited. So that's in that sense of the word ("boundary"), but I do think of like a semi permeable responsive membrane the where there is a choice about what you let in or out.
Anastasia:
I love that image and it it's really in contrast to how property law works, right? And how property line boundaries are these very rigid boxes or hexagons or whatever shape it ends up taking. It feels like the boundaries of the land and how we have relationship to those boundaries very much shows up in different areas of life, right? Like that shows up in how we build community. And so, I don't know if there's anything coming up for you as you think about the semipermeable, the porous membrane you just mentioned and just contrasting that to property law or are at least conventional systems of "owning" land.
Nkem:
Those aren't boundaries. Those are walls.
Anastasia:
Mmm.
Nkem:
They actually are because a natural boundary, like, is an ecotone, right? I was thinking about ecotones as like crepuscular or liminal spaces, they are in betweens, right? Where something gradually shifts into something else. It's not very often in the natural world that those boundary lines are so sharp. The demarcation tends to have some kind of gradation a little ombre, right? As night goes into day, dawn rises or the sunsets that is crepuscular time. It's a boundary. But there's this liminal space in between and so like you know the shore - where the ocean and shore meet? That there's agive-and-take. It's not like try doing a boundary line at different tides. If it was a property line at the shore with different tides, it'd constantly be moving. So it (ecotones) defies what the law is trying to rigidly hold into place? I don't think boundary is the right word. I know they'll say it (in the law). This property is "bounded by" right? I think about property addresses. Like, how in theUnited States, it's a numeric system by and large, you know, it's your address is 45 whatever, the street, zip code and then in other parts of the world, it's like the shop above the corner. You see it in England, sometimes, you know, it's The Farmhouse at the end of the road. Like, post, you know, the postal codes are quite different the way we locate things. It has much more fluidity and it's a formal system, right? Like, people can get mail from anywhere in the world. It's a formal system, but it's, it has a more informal quality to the naming of it. It's almost it's always relational. When it gets so rigid, it gives the illusion of permanence. It gives the illusion of it is always been this way and this is the best way to do it because it is the most precise. It is the most permanent. It is the most standardized because these are the values that we have standardized. But what if those weren't our starting point.
Anastasia:
It's actually a really interesting evolution to modern property law like some land surveying in looking at the english traditions of origin. They used to do something called "beating of the bounds" where the whole community would go around and whenever they would find a monument or marker (kind of violent) but they would take a child and hit them on the bum or push them into a nettle bush. Have some sort of embodied mark on the child. If it was ever to go to court on what the boundary line is the child would testify.
Nkem:
So if I was there, I would say like oh yeah they hit me on the butt and now I can tell you that (the boundary) was there.
Anastasia:
Now this there they thought pain with it, with the reliable reliable witness, I guess. But yeah, it's I mean even there though. Like it's weird and there's some strange stuff around the church but just thinking about it as like a communal act. It's something the community does together. Rather than the way that the property lines are established now, it was very much like we're going to make this map. We're going to place it here with no real reference to the people, places or ecosystems that exist. And so that idea of standardization,making it easy, reducing it to a mathematical equation because if you look at and I'm sure if you've looked at like any sort of land-based transaction, the legal description is mumbo jumbo to me like I don't know what that means these angles. I don't know if there's anything to respond to there but I just wanted to flag the ridiculous origins of our system.
Nkem:
But that means, but the origins and also, you know, if we don't talk about, what our preconceptions are that if efficiency and standardization our values, but no one says but efficiency and the sanitation our values. We just say this is the way it is but once you can say, oh that it looks like these are the underlying assumptions. then we can start having a conversation. Are these are the assumptions we want? But you can't even have a conversation if the assumptions are invisiblized.
Anastasia:
Yeah. Yeah, that and so I'm thinking about what you mentioned before and just bringing the ecotone sand and thinking about safety. Like the the I feel like private property gives the illusion of safety for a lot of folks, right? Like this is where I find safety in my the four corners of my home. And so if we want to dream into something a little bit different and look to ecotones, look to the convergence points. Yeah, I'm curious because I know safety is really big for you, how to safely navigate the fluid boundary lines.
Nkem:
I think, when people don't feel safe inside, we do all kinds of funny things.Not funny, Ha-Ha like funny? Oh God. So, we grasp for security when we feel unsafe. Because you can have your four corners. Right. And still okay, I have my property lines. They've been drawn. I own this property, but I still don't feel safe. So now Ineed a gun and then that still is not enough. Now, I need to stand my ground law so that I can use my gun. So, there's like this implicit admission of failure of this property line to provide the safety it was supposed to provide. In that, it always is additive that they need to keep adding more and more which is saying the first thing didn't work. So what's really the problem is where are you? Locating your safety. So if the safety was in our relational bonds as people, right? If that was where we were seeking safety, in relational bonds, what would our relationship to property and land be.
Anastasia:
I think what I really love about the ecotones and I'd love to hear if you have some additional thoughts on it too, is the requirement to engage with environment that the current system doesn't allow for. Like you can just hide in your home and no one will bother you. You know like that's the thing and that's devastating. That's so sad. We're like a communal species. We should not feel that way and it sucks that it is a real feeling. I think about the ecotones and how that perhaps could be a parallel, like there's discord, there's things happening, it's not all harmony and I don't think that's something we should try to do, right? And it's not possible for everyone to be harmonious. We're not all the same, we don't have one experience. But yeah, just if there's anything to reflect on their around unsafety, not being the same thing as variation, or differences or the emergence of something new, right?
Nkem:
Yeah, if you feel unsafe the unknown is terrifying. If you're already unsafe and then the unknown, it's terrifying. And so we really have a crisis of fear here and you're asking people to do more when they can't even do what they're doing. So the conversation has to be, let's talk about safety and let's talk about what is safety and what does safety mean to you? And how do you know when you're safe enough? And I think people would have to be in conversation, really? They need to be in conversation about what does this mean, what does it feel? Does a gun make you really feel more safe does being in your home and in what way and how do you know? Letting people start to name some of these things. And I think meeting them and helping them understand helping, folks, understand themselves better opens up a softening that there might be additional ways of feeling safe and then you can start to have a conversation rather than saying, I see you in your home and we've got to get you out of your home. Instead can we stand at the doorstep and have a chat? Like where is the nature that lapping up with them in their homes.
Anastasia:
I'm pausing because I'm just thinking of the ways, my craft, right? As an attorney really enables people to not leave even get to their doorstep, right? Like, what within my craft can I shift and I don't know if it's my place. That's another thing is like it doesn't feel like what we need is a new way to draw property lines at least not at the beginning, what feels the most important.
Nkem:
It's not that it's not important. I mean it is important. What is important is to know what is often most useful when and it feels it feels early. It feels early in the conversation and the people and communities may be at current stages and phases. So go to the ripe spaces, go to the right, the places that are more right and do the experimentation because you're always going to have a leading edge, right, just going to be a leading edge and so you work there and then what diffuses? What filters into consciousness. It's a good place to experiment, right? With people who are engaging and are at the boundaries and in playing in the ecotones. Great like, then that's the place to play and I think that's where land clinic is. It's as you think about what helps other people get to and other communities get to that ripeness. That's a different question that you, I think you're right is not a legal question. And so, you know, here this is why we have multidisciplinary transdisciplinary anti disciplinary work to, you know what, what is needed? What is needed to get people on the bridge, to their front doors, and people can get to their front doors and they look out at, they're letting their manicured Lawns where they're pushing, you know, the boundary of the wildness of nature out as far as they can. So you could get them to their front step and it's nothing. It's still sanitary, or it's AstroTurf.
Anastasia:
Side note: When we were in LA, our neighbors got AstroTurf and it was just so heartbreaking. It's like the worms. You're suffocating the worms.
Nkem:
But yeah, I don't go out and maybe you're not watering I don't know, you know so.
Anastasia:
Is there is there anything else income that? You feel? I know you prepared for this. So I want to I want to squeeze the juice out of this lemon to see if there's any other.
Nkem:
Was it a Meyer lemon, kind of sweet?
Anastasia:
Yeah it's sweet and it's got honey at the bottom like I'm making a whole lemonade.
Nkem:
I do think your question is important. Like is where is the role of law and what are the adjunctive, supportive, other approaches and when and how do they work in synergy? Who was part of the conversation? As we understand that boundaries are also artificial like things are all connected and all one and a boundary is artificial and it's a both/and.
Anastasia:
Yeah.
Nkem:
How is something whole and divided? How is something whole and partitioned? Do we have the capacity to sit with that nuance? That the land is whole, and it is partitioned even not by human hands even not by economic systems. The land is partitioned. I'm just thinking of a human boundary if somebody punches me I won't engage with them, right? That's my boundary like no physical violence. Like what does the sand or the shore say to the ocean? What is my line? Or are there boundaries always forgiving always interacting? Does a tree say I will only do so much, I will only bend so much and then you give me enough wind I will break. I'm done. Like I don't know. Like is there a way of the analogy of a human boundary? Does nature have some of the same players? Or are they different animals.
Anastasia:
I love that question.
Nkem:
Because an ecotone is a relationship. Not actually a boundary. It's a relationship, right?
Anastasia:
I feel like there's just so much knowledge that is within, you know, where at the base of the tree and the roots, meet the soil and the conversations that are had, they are ancient and new and all the things all at once. It just like the time of you punched me and then I don't engage with you. Like, time doesn't work the same way. It feels like. The relationships seem a little bit more like long time. So maybe there are boundaries within that long time, but it's a really beautiful question to sit it with. And end our conversation on.
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