Larry Wilson Live: Conversations with Real Safety Experts

Taking Human Factors to the Far Side of the Moon
Featuring: Dr. Ajay P Kothari, President & CEO of Astrox Corporation and NASA Project Lead

“But the Dark Side of the Moon sounds better…”

“Yes,” he said “but we don’t say that, we say far side. Otherwise all the scientists and people at NASA will think you don’t know or that I didn’t tell you...”

“Right,” I said, “So ok, we’ll go with Far Side”

Whether you call it the “Dark Side” or the “Far Side” of the Moon, doesn’t matter when it comes to human error or preventing human error. Although, as Ajay points out: it doesn’t hurt so much if you trip and fall on the moon.

However, the problems human factors can cause in terms of performance and critical errors could also be much more serious on the Moon or Mars. Typically, redundancy or multiple layers of redundancy have been the “go-to” strategy for preventing failure. But with people, multiple layers of redundancy beget more layers or an increased level of complacency.

At what point does the redundancy become counterproductive? And, how does the “race for space” appetite of private enterprise mix with the mission statement of “zero failures”?

These are some of the questions Larry and Ajay discuss, including the questions from the live audience, on this episode of Larry Wilson Live.

The Evils of Automation vs. the Evils of Human Error
With Marc Riquelme
President of Signicast, CIREX, and OptiMIM, divisions of Form Technologies

People make mistakes and robots don’t. But are robots and technology actually replacing workers or is that just a misconception most people have? 

And is there really nothing you can do for human error except multiple layers of redundancy or is that also a widely held misconception? 

And finally, can you combine new technology with critical error reduction techniques to achieve higher reliability with the people who remain? 

The answer is yes, but it depends on how you go about it.

In this episode, Marc Riquelme and Larry  discuss how to leverage technology and methodology to achieve higher levels of production, reliability, and safety within the organization. 

Marc is the President of three companies within Form Technologies and he has a great sense of humor, but he also has a number of important messages for senior managers and EHSQ professionals.

Managing the Mega Project to Zero Harm
With Hector Salazar, GM of Construction Safety at HPCL-Mittal Energy Limited
Bathinda, India

It’s a little airport. It was a small plane. And it was still another hour by cab before I got to Bathinda. But once onsite at the HMEL refinery, in what seemed to be the middle of nowhere, there was a huge mega-project going on. Thousands of workers coming and going. I counted 15 cranes—big cranes—but there might have been more. I got there before COVID. Things were on schedule and no lost time accidents. I got to present to the leadership group and Hector also go me in front of the managers or the onsite supervisors for all of the major contractors working on the project. Then COVID hit.

Hector has been a guest on the expert panel webinars we did all over the world when we had a show about managing contractors through the pandemic. But that’s been over a year. The project is still going on and things are still going very well. However, it isn’t just what they have achieved—it’s also about how they did it.

Even world-class companies can be hard pressed or have their progress stalled by “blame”. But for other companies, the problems blame can cause have been crippling: employee engagement goes close to zero, and as a result improvement at ground level is close to zero. 

Another problem blame creates is the perception of unfair or biased penalties being administered as punishment. And this could be anything from forcing the employee to take a safety training course to being fired for a safety violation or breaking a rule. 

Rarely is punishment seen as being fair and just—which then furthers or perpetuates the negative spiral.

Okay, so blame creates negativity and apathy, both of which are counter-productive to any company’s safety efforts. But what if you “inherit” or are already working in a culture of blame—what do you do? What can you do—that works, or that did work?

Pierre-Jean can tell you.

He got a job at a company that had a culture “steeped” or “deeply-rooted” in blame and punishment. It was the most negative safety culture he had ever encountered…and yet, he managed to turn it all around.

We keep hearing about it. We’re tired of hearing about it. But that doesn’t mean it’s over. And it doesn’t mean it can’t harm you or, although it seems to be a bit less - kill you. 

But even without going to the extreme, we all know there can be long-term heart problems, lung problems and more with COVID. 

So, why is it unravelling so badly? 

It might have something to do with complacency and perception, even though fines are doubling in some jurisdictions. Yet other areas are loosening up when all the numbers and the number of variant cases are all going up. 

It seems talking about this on April Fool’s day is, well, quite appropriate. 

However, more to the point: what are leading companies doing to prevent a shut down/cleanup or another shut down?

Some of you may have heard Anthony before. He has been on LarryWilsonLive before to talk about Health and the skills required to deal with an invisible hazard like COVID. This time he’s back to provide some perspective for managers and health and safety professionals on vaccines, public health measures, the decline of the pandemic, recovery, and preparing for outbreaks in the future.

Although Geller and Krause argue about who invented BBS, DuPont had already been doing it for years. And that’s the point: BBS was not new but it became the topic of conversation in the early 1990s, and by the mid-90s it was global. Why did it take so long to “tip” and spread like wildfire?

Or, is the real question: “Who.” Who got it to tip? To use Malcolm Gladwell’s jargon, maybe Krause was the “maven” or expert, but Jim was the front-man or “salesman.”

However, there’s a twist because the third leg of Gladwell’s stool is a “connector.” And when it comes to making a connection with safety or getting people to connect with safety, few people compare with Jim. (Larry can still remember stories he told at least 30 years ago—that’s the kind of impact he has).

In the episode, Jim explains how it was in the beginning: the early days of BBS and how it went from relative obscurity to mainstream technology. And then, where it went after (we went one way and they went another). And finally, what he sees in terms of the future and where or if BBS fits in.

From the theoretical level of Mount Olympus to the shop floor, Keith Hole has seen it all and heard it all. What’s real, what's not, and one thing you can be assured: he won’t sugar-coat it.

Many people and academic experts have opinions on what methodologies work best. But in the end, it’s all about this: Why is it so difficult to get everyone home safe and, as if that’s not enough, why is it so difficult to get everyone back to work safely? It’s not like anyone wants to get hurt or wants anyone else to get hurt. So why is it so difficult? Which ones really work (Behavioural Based Safety, Safety Differently, 4.0, Human Factors and Safety 24/7)?

It’s hard to know. Only so many people have seen them play out in the real world. Even with the improvements in networking, most safety professionals simply do not get out enough, to enough workplaces to get the big picture. And most consultants who do get out enough are biased – because of the product or service they sell.

That only leaves so many people, like Keith, who can give you his two-cents worth without charging you a dollar or a euro (which is ironic because unbiased advice is usually worth more).

Keith has been in the industry, specializing in safety for over 20 years but his experience of behavioural techniques began well before this when he ran a pub, and then began training pub managers on how to manage behaviour (and if you can manage drunks you can probably do all right with anyone else).

He is widely recognized as an expert on an international scale and has recently been nominated and recognized by SHP as one of the 25 most influential OSH practitioners. Keith is an active ambassador for IOSH's No Time to Lose Campaign which focuses on preventing occupational cancer. Drawing on his knowledge and experience of key principles such as Behavioural Based Safety, Safety Differently, Human Factors, and Safety 24/7 he will share some practical tips on getting people to do the right thing so that we can get everyone home safe.

By the way, if you’ve never heard Keith speak, he is brilliantly funny. In his inimitable British style, Keith will share with us his unique spin on the world of safety which definitely won’t be boring. So please tune in for what will be a very interesting look at the current state of the art, as it were, in terms of modern safety management, and an unbiased assessment of strategies that actually work – on the shop floor and in the real world.

In this episode of Larry Wilson Live, Larry discusses integrating human factors into quality, production efficiency, and customer relations with Alex Carnevale, President of Dynacast International and former Chief Performance Officer at Etex.

They answer important questions like:

Why are lessons learned combined with tremendous success so difficult to spread from Safety and Health to the other departments in the organization? 

Is it just the “silo effect”? 

Is it the message or is it the messenger (some safety professionals aren’t at the same management level)? 

Or is it that the managers of the other departments view safety as something they have to contribute to in terms of time and money but gives them nothing directly in return (e.g. the sprocket needs to be guarded but the guard doesn’t make it go any faster)? 

Or perhaps it’s because many quality managers follow what Demming said: 85/15 (system vs. person)? But...that was 40 years ago. And many companies have, by now, achieved six sigma reliability within their manufacturing processes.

Unfortunately, very few humans have achieved six sigma reliability. And now most people are doing more or are being asked to do more than ever before. So is the leverage (now) with the people or is it with the system? 

Data from many multinational companies in a broad cross-section of industries confirms that significant improvements or reductions in scrap, unscheduled downtime, first-run defects or customer complaints occurred simultaneously when employees received training on Human Factors. And yet, there has been a reluctance to push that success from safety into the other departments. But how many departments are not affected by human error?

Alex Carnevale was the Chief Performance Officer at Etex when they rolled out training on human factors and critical error reduction techniques. He and Larry worked together on a pilot site in Ireland to help refine and test the “Performance” training program. So he is well aware of the successes and the benefits, as well as the struggle to get this through to the other departments within the organization. And now, with a new multi-national company he will face the challenges again... only this time we can all get to hear what he is thinking and how he is planning to do it. 

Larry Wilson Live is an online talk show where the world’s top leaders will expand their mindset about the overall existing safety culture. An “out of the box” type discussion where Larry and his guests provide great insights for a perfect safety environment.

This week Larry and guest, Dr. Praveena Dorathi, discuss "Managing a Decentralized Workforce to World-Class Performance." Dr. Praveena is the Environment Health & Safety Head for JLL West Asia.

Managing any workforce to world-class performance isn’t easy. However, managing a decentralized workforce where your employees are working on a client’s premises has many additional challenges. And in order to achieve world-class performance you have to do everything or almost everything right: from senior management giving the “right” support down to each individual accepting their personal responsibility and working on improving their own safety skills and habits.

Please join us as Dr. Praveena describes the journey JLL has been on, the successes they’ve had, the lessons learned and what she sees as their path forward. It should be a very interesting session.

Dr. Praveena has been an expert panelist on several SafeConnection webinars in India, the Middle East and Europe. She is an entertaining speaker who has achieved remarkable results in environments where they have limited or minimal control.

In episode 3, Larry talks with ENOC's Senior Director of Sustainability, Operational & Business Excellence, Dr. Waddah Ghanem. Waddah is an expert in the field of process safety. In the show, he and Larry discuss some of the topics covered in his latest book, Process Safety Management and Human Factors: A Practitioner’s Experiential Approach. This is a fascinating conversation about how human behaviour should be considered when designing your process safety management systems.

Watch the full recording of the show on YouTube: Click Here