Daniel is a Western University Graduate, and currently works as the Founder and CEO of Lawbrokr. Daniel’s journey represents another unique journey to the Law. Having never attended Law School, Daniel ventured into the world of legal technology at Clio, leading him to start his company, Lawbrokr, showing us all that no matter where we start, the opportunity to join the legal industry and be integral to it is always there.

Daniel and I started years before he arrived in the Legal industry. He spoke about the various experiences leading up to his entry, speaking on how important sales is for anyone’s career, transforming the way you engage with individuals and organizations. Sales for him created a lifelong skill set, learning how to speak with potential clients, and drastically improving soft skills.

Daniel then spoke about his time at Clio, noting how important this introduction to the legal space was for his future, and how he began to learn the psychology of how lawyers and legal professionals think. Daniel would take these learnings and start Lawbrokr.

Lawbrokr would require some pivots to get the product right, and didn’t come without its hardships. Daniel said his competitiveness to succeed and make a product and platform that fit his clients’ needs drove him to work through the tough times.

This episode with Daniel further shows that no one’s journey to the Law or Law School is a straight path. The winding roads and paths are all a part of the journey!

Happy New Year!

Daniel’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dsteinberg9

Lawbrokr: https://www.lawbrokr.com

Be sure to check out the Official Sponsors for the Lawyers in the Making Podcast:

Rhetoric - empowers your teaching and training with AI that strengthens learning, protects integrity, and proves authentic understanding, for students and professionals alike. Find them here: userhetoric.com

The Law School Operating System™ Recorded Course - This course is for ambitious law students who want a proven, simple system to learn every topic in their classes to excel in class and on exams. Go to www.lisablasser.com, check out the student tab with course offerings, and use code LSOSNATE10 at checkout for 10% off Lisa’s recorded course!

Start LSAT - Founded by former guest and 22-year-old superstar, Alden Spratt, Start LSAT was built upon breaking down barriers, allowing anyone access to high-quality LSAT Prep. For $110, you get yourself the Start LSAT self-paced course, and using code LITM10 you get 10% off the self-paced course! Check out Alden and Start LSAT at startlsat.com and use code LITM10 for 10% off the self-paced course!

Lawyers in the Making Podcast is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Nima is a Northwestern University Pritzker School of Law graduate and currently works as the Founder and CEO of JusticeArch. Nima’s journey demonstrates that betting on yourself and succeeding in that bet can yield the greatest dividends throughout life.

Nima and I started prior to Law School, where at UCLA, he would cold call his way into his first job, and explore his interests in policy and non-profit organizations. Law School was always on his mind, and during the intermission between college and law school, Nimma recommended the various pre-law school legal experiences he had and just how impactful they were.

Then we moved to Nima’s introduction to Northwestern University Pritzker School of Law, on a full scholarship. Going into his first year, Nima would face some health problems, making an already tough 1L year into a nightmare. But, despite it all, Nima persevered, a huge topic of importance for him. We then spoke about Nimma’s various legal internships during Law School and his decision to open up JusticeArch in his 2L year.

What makes the JusticeArch story so fascinating is that it was a completely different service at the beginning than it is today. After realizing what he sought in JusticeArch may not work, Nima would pivot into what it is today, a Legal Marketing infrastructure built by JDs, for JDs.

Finally, Nima and I spoke about the biggest decision of all and why he did it, turning down an offer from Kirkland & Ellis, and going all in on himself and Justice Arch. Nima shows in this episode that the greatest bet one could make is the bet on themselves!

Nimma’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nima-ostowari

JusticeArch: https://justicearch.com

Be sure to check out the Official Sponsors for the Lawyers in the Making Podcast:

Rhetoric - takes user briefs and motions and compares them against the text of opinions written by judges to identify ways to tailor their arguments to better persuade the judges handling their cases. Rhetoric’s focus is on persuasion and helps users find new ways to improve their odds of success through more persuasive arguments. Find them here: userhetoric.com

The Law School Operating System™ Recorded Course - This course is for ambitious law students who want a proven, simple system to learn every topic in their classes to excel in class and on exams. Go to www.lisablasser.com, check out the student tab with course offerings, and use code LSOSNATE10 at checkout for 10% off Lisa’s recorded course!

Start LSAT - Founded by former guest and 22-year-old superstar, Alden Spratt, Start LSAT was built upon breaking down barriers, allowing anyone access to high-quality LSAT Prep. For $110, you get yourself the Start LSAT self-paced course, and using code LITM10 you get 10% off the self-paced course! Check out Alden and Start LSAT at startlsat.com and use code LITM10 for 10% off the self-paced course!

Lawyers in the Making Podcast is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Nick is a Loyola Law School Los Angeles graduate and currently works as the Chief Operating Officer at Matador Solutions. At an early age, Nick was surrounded by the Law every day of his life. While Law School was not his first option, this episode shows just how unique his journey truly was, and will be for future years!

Nick and I spoke about his early life with his parents, and numerous other relatives being lawyers, he was always involved in the business of it all. Doing marketing, learning how to code, and generating new cases online for his parents throughout his childhood would have its full circle moment, leading him to become the Chief Operating Officer at Matador Solutions.

Nick, following various experiences, would end up doing Law School in one of the many unique ways one can take, night school. Nick would talk about his law school experience, speaking about the different environment it brought, and being one of the youngest people in his class. Nick would present to us his 45/15/5 study system, which led him to tremendous success, along with how he navigated night school, all while further building Matador solutions.

His greatest takeaway from Law School? Discipline! This episode shows that even when running a business, the Law School experience is still possible. Nick delivers with a plethora of Law School tips and tricks, as well as hiring strategies, that anyone can learn from!

Nick’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickecohen

Matador Solutions: https://www.matadorsolutions.net

Be sure to check out the Official Sponsors for the Lawyers in the Making Podcast:

Rhetoric - takes user briefs and motions and compares them against the text of opinions written by judges to identify ways to tailor their arguments to better persuade the judges handling their cases. Rhetoric’s focus is on persuasion and helps users find new ways to improve their odds of success through more persuasive arguments. Find them here: userhetoric.com

The Law School Operating System™ Recorded Course - This course is for ambitious law students who want a proven, simple system to learn every topic in their classes to excel in class and on exams. Go to www.lisablasser.com, check out the student tab with course offerings, and use code LSOSNATE10 at checkout for 10% off Lisa’s recorded course!

Start LSAT - Founded by former guest and 22-year-old superstar, Alden Spratt, Start LSAT was built upon breaking down barriers, allowing anyone access to high-quality LSAT Prep. For $110, you get yourself the Start LSAT self-paced course, and using code LITM10 you get 10% off the self-paced course! Check out Alden and Start LSAT at startlsat.com and use code LITM10 for 10% off the self-paced course!

Lawyers in the Making Podcast is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Will is a George Washington Law School Graduate and currently works as an Assistant Attorney General at the Fraud and Corruption Unit at the Maryland Office of the Attorney General. Will’s journey exemplifies the unique journey, with 11 years in between his graduation from undergraduate, to finally arriving at Law School.

Will and I started years before George Washington Law School, speaking on getting that real-world experience in different industries, before Law School. Will wanted to go to Law School and had family who were lawyers, but felt the expense was not quite worth it. Will would do work in water systems for some years, and then decide to head down to Austin for his most ambitious venture, opening up a food truck.

Will spoke about his 2-year food truck experience and the chaos that ensued daily. Will notes the hard times of running a food truck, making Law School all the more easier. Will then spoke on his 1L year at the George Washington Law School, which he enjoyed thoroughly, and then Covid hit and fundamentally changed his Law School experience.

Will talked about the various internships and clerkships he had, and what he learned from them, leading to today, where he works as an Assistant Attorney General. Finally, Will and I talked about his book, Law School Essentials: A Grad’s Guide to What Matters Most. We would speak about doing what you're good at, having a direction and being specific, having detachment from bad grades, and embracing failure to continue to improve.

This episode will further show that no matter the age, and no matter the timing, your Law School journey is solely defined by you and your goals! Be sure to check out Will’s Book, Law School Essentials: A Grad’s Guide to What Matters Most, below!

Will’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/williamelman

Law School Essentials: A Grad’s Guide to What Matters Most: https://a.co/d/b9VVgLf

Be sure to check out the Official Sponsors for the Lawyers in the Making Podcast:

Rhetoric - takes user briefs and motions and compares them against the text of opinions written by judges to identify ways to tailor their arguments to better persuade the judges handling their cases. Rhetoric’s focus is on persuasion and helps users find new ways to improve their odds of success through more persuasive arguments. Find them here: userhetoric.com

The Law School Operating System™ Recorded Course - This course is for ambitious law students who want a proven, simple system to learn every topic in their classes to excel in class and on exams. Go to www.lisablasser.com, check out the student tab with course offerings, and use code LSOSNATE10 at checkout for 10% off Lisa’s recorded course!

Start LSAT - Founded by former guest and 22-year-old superstar, Alden Spratt, Start LSAT was built upon breaking down barriers, allowing anyone access to high-quality LSAT Prep. For $110, you get yourself the Start LSAT self-paced course, and using code LITM10 you get 10% off the self-paced course! Check out Alden and Start LSAT at startlsat.com and use code LITM10 for 10% off the self-paced course!

Lawyers in the Making Podcast is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Jimmy is a University of Oklahoma School of Law graduate and currently works as the Chief Executive Officer at the Lai & Turner Law Firm. Jimmy’s journey is filled with success, tough decisions, and overcoming massive challenges.

Jimmy and I started before Law School, where, growing up in Taiwan, along with Japan, Germany, England, and the US, he saw his mom go through litigation at a young age, running a business, and wanted to do something to help. He decided becoming a lawyer was the best possible route. We spoke about Jimmy’s reinterest back into going to Law School, how he got to the University of Oklahoma School of Law, and his first year experience.

Following this, Jimmy spoke about his Law School legal experiences, making valuable relationships, albeit few, throughout Law School, and how in all of life, the ability to sell is a skill we all must learn and master! Jimmy leads us up to starting his firm, and what he does today at the Lai & Turner Law Firm.

From getting acclimated to the learning curve of being a first-time business owner to scaling and reaching new goals. Finally, we spoke about Jimmy’s newfound emergence in the LinkedIn game, gaining over 3.1 million post views in the last year, and starting his school community, Unforgettable Professionals. Jimmy’s story is one you don’t want to forget, and as his story is written with time, Jimmy is one to watch not only now, but in the coming years!

Unforgettable Professionals Skool Community: https://www.skool.com/unforgettable-professionals

Jimmy’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jimmylai-jdmba

Lai and Turner Law Firm: http://laiturnerlaw.com/

Be sure to check out the Official Sponsors for the Lawyers in the Making Podcast:

Rhetoric - takes user briefs and motions and compares them against the text of opinions written by judges to identify ways to tailor their arguments to better persuade the judges handling their cases. Rhetoric’s focus is on persuasion and helps users find new ways to improve their odds of success through more persuasive arguments. Find them here: userhetoric.com

The Law School Operating System™ Recorded Course - This course is for ambitious law students who want a proven, simple system to learn every topic in their classes to excel in class and on exams. Go to www.lisablasser.com, check out the student tab with course offerings, and use code LSOSNATE10 at checkout for 10% off Lisa’s recorded course!

Start LSAT - Founded by former guest and 21-year-old superstar, Alden Spratt, Start LSAT was built upon breaking down barriers, allowing anyone access to high-quality LSAT Prep. For $110, you get yourself the Start LSAT self-paced course, and using code LITM10 you get 10% off the self-paced course! Check out Alden and Start LSAT at startlsat.com and use code LITM10 for 10% off the self-paced course!

Lawyers in the Making Podcast is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Jacob is a current 2L at The University of Toledo College of Law and currently works as a Law Clerk at Johnson and Associates. Jacob’s journey is just getting underway, but his story is a testament to playing to one’s strengths and leveraging the power of personal branding and social media.

Jacob and I started before Law School at BYU, where Jacob had a wealth of pre-law legal experience. Jacob spoke extensively about his legal experiences before Law School, and how it was important not only for preparing for Law School, but being able to be 100% sure that Law School is the path for you.

Jacob’s motivations for Law School also included playing to his strengths and talents, more importantly, being able to identify those talents. Jacob then spoke about his first year of Law School, which he neither hated nor loved, but because his expectations were so high in terms of difficulty, it came easier than he thought. He also spoke about his transition into 2L year, the importance of a support system during Law School, and sorting out your priorities.

Finally, Jacob spoke about his recent emergence as a major player on LinkedIn and why he started posting in the first place. He implores everyone, from undergraduates to 3Ls, to start posting on LinkedIn as soon as possible, speaking on their experience and the strategies that have led them to success. As our friend Spencer May says, “Lawyers are on LinkedIn, and you should too!”.

Jacob’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jacob-petersen-law

Be sure to check out the Official Sponsors for the Lawyers in the Making Podcast:

Rhetoric - takes user briefs and motions and compares them against the text of opinions written by judges to identify ways to tailor their arguments to better persuade the judges handling their cases. Rhetoric’s focus is on persuasion and helps users find new ways to improve their odds of success through more persuasive arguments. Find them here: userhetoric.com

The Law School Operating System™ Recorded Course - This course is for ambitious law students who want a proven, simple system to learn every topic in their classes to excel in class and on exams. Go to www.lisablasser.com, check out the student tab with course offerings, and use code LSOSNATE10 at checkout for 10% off Lisa’s recorded course!

Start LSAT - Founded by former guest and 21-year-old superstar, Alden Spratt, Start LSAT was built upon breaking down barriers, allowing anyone access to high-quality LSAT Prep. For $110, you get yourself the Start LSAT self-paced course, and using code LITM10 you get 10% off the self-paced course! Check out Alden and Start LSAT at startlsat.com and use code LITM10 for 10% off the self-paced course!

Lawyers in the Making Podcast is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Kevin is a New York Law School graduate and currently works as an Intel Professor of Law at North Carolina Central School of Law. Kevin’s journey is international, inspirational, and innovative in every way possible! From working as a lawyer in Japan to research into the intersection between the Law and AI, Kevin delivers on one of our longest episodes ever!

Kevin and I started at New York Law School, at Colgate University, receiving both his bachelor’s and master’s, while also working for a newspaper, a job that would be a huge help for his future Law School experience. We then came to his introduction to New York Law School, in the middle of hating and loving the experience, but were able to make lifelong friends and take a deep dive into what the law had to offer.

Kevin then spoke about his illustrious post-graduation experiences. First, working as a Law Clerk at the Eastern District of Pennsylvania, Kevin would see the likes of future Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito and renowned Lawyer Leon Higginbotham. Following this, Kevin would take his talents to Tokyo, Japan. The learning curve would be tough, but Kevin speaks on his amazing experience, immersing himself in Japanese Law, and understanding and cultivating the unique professional culture they have.

Kevin would go on to speak about his post-Japan adventures, which included earning his Master’s in Religion and Religious Studies from the University of Chicago Divinity School, as well as his PhD in Social and Political Ethics from the University of Chicago.

We then came leading up to today, where Kevin would work as a Law Professor at numerous schools, starting the Innovation Institute at Campbell University School of Law, as well as his current position as an Intel Professor of Law at North Carolina Central School of Law.

This episode with Kevin is as wide-ranging as it gets, and we covered a ton. Be sure to check out all of Kevin’s content, including his Substack, Ethics in an Algorithmic Age, below!

Kevin’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/proflee/

Ethics in an Algorithmic Age

Be sure to check out the Official Sponsors for the Lawyers in the Making Podcast:

Rhetoric - takes user briefs and motions and compares them against the text of opinions written by judges to identify ways to tailor their arguments to better persuade the judges handling their cases. Rhetoric’s focus is on persuasion and helps users find new ways to improve their odds of success through more persuasive arguments. Find them here: userhetoric.com

The Law School Operating System™ Recorded Course - This course is for ambitious law students who want a proven, simple system to learn every topic in their classes to excel in class and on exams. Go to www.lisablasser.com, check out the student tab with course offerings, and use code LSOSNATE10 at checkout for 10% off Lisa’s recorded course!

Start LSAT - Founded by former guest and 21-year-old super-star, Alden Spratt, Start LSAT was built upon breaking down barriers, allowing anyone access to high-quality LSAT Prep. For $110 you get yourself the Start LSAT self-paced course, and using code LITM10 you get 10% off the self-paced course! Check out Alden and Start LSAT at startlsat.com and use code LITM10 for 10% off the self-paced course!

Lawyers in the Making Podcast is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Andrew is a Harvard Law School graduate and currently works as the Chief Legal Officer and Corporate Secretary at Panorama Education. Andrew’s journey is one marked by innovation, self-discovery, and seizing opportunities when they arise.

Andrew and I started before he entered Harvard Law School at Harvard University. After graduating from undergraduate, he would have a short stint in the consulting world, but decided Law School would be the next path. Motivated to stay near his friends and continue to get to play the cello, Andrew would enter the doors of Harvard Law School, a familiar, but at the same time, unfamiliar place to be.

Andrew would speak about the various internships he held throughout Law School, from the Justice Department to litigation. Andrew was able to tease out important insights about what the future of his career would look like. Following Law School, Andrew would enter the world of BigLaw, landing himself a spot at one of the largest firms in the world, Latham & Watkins. Andrew would speak on this experience, and also how this would lead to his next job at Promontory Financial Group.

Andrew would get the opportunity to build Promontory to the highest of heights. Andrew then spoke about his teaching career both in Law School and at Business school, noting how much he enjoys seeing his students grow over time, and beyond the classroom. Finally, we spoke about the amazing actions he is taking at where he works today, Panorama Education, helping schools around the country find ways to better serve every student body!

This episode with Andrew is one of my favorites I have ever recorded, just for the pure fact that Andrew covers all the necessities you need to not only lead a successful legal career, but a life full of fulfillment!

Andrew’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewting

Be sure to check out the Official Sponsors for the Lawyers in the Making Podcast:

Rhetoric - takes user briefs and motions and compares them against the text of opinions written by judges to identify ways to tailor their arguments to better persuade the judges handling their cases. Rhetoric's focus is on persuasion and helps users find new ways to improve their odds of success through more persuasive arguments. Find them here: userhetoric.com

The Law School Operating System™ Recorded Course - This course is for ambitious law students who want a proven, simple system to learn every topic in their classes to excel in class and on exams. Go to www.lisablasser.com, check out the student tab with course offerings, and use code LSOSNATE10 at checkout for 10% off Lisa's recorded course!

Start LSAT - Founded by former guest and 21-year-old super-star, Alden Spratt, Start LSAT was built upon breaking down barriers, allowing anyone access to high-quality LSAT Prep. For $110 you get yourself the Start LSAT self-paced course, and using code LITM10 you get 10% off the self-paced course! Check out Alden and Start LSAT at startlsat.com and use code LITM10 for 10% off the self-paced course!

Lawyers in the Making Podcast is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Estelle is a University of Memphis School of Law graduate and is also the Founder of Estelle Winsett Professional Image Consulting. Estelle’s journey is a fascinating one, and also one that resonated deeply with me. From litigation attorney, to lawyer headhunter, director of career services and professional development, to now, landing where her true passion lies, as a Professional Image Consultant. Estelle’s journey is proof that there truly is no one straight path in anyone’s journey.

Estelle and I started leading up to her entrance into the University of Memphis School of Law. Coming from a family of lawyers, including her father, by the 5th grade, she knew she wanted to be a lawyer. Seeing her dad help people inspired her to want to do the same. We then spoke about her first year in Law School, which was a whole different experience and took time to adjust to.

We continued through her Law School career, into her Legal career, where participating in Moot Court would drive her towards a career in litigation. Following Law School, Estelle would spend 6 years litigating before realizing that many unhappy lawyers around her, and wanting to get away, she became a Client Relations and placement director for Counsel on Call, a job that would lay the foundations for her future positions.

Estelle then spoke about her experiences up to today, with a fantastic story about how she got the job as the dean of career services at her alma mater, Memphis, how she became the director of professional development at Butler Snow, and finally, what she does today as the founder of Estelle Winsett Professional Image Consulting.

This episode shows the importance of crafting a story through how we look and how we feel, and the real science backing that fact! Estelle is an expert in all things style, professional development, and Personal Branding. Be sure to check out Estelle and her website below!

Estelle’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/estellewinsett

Estelle’s Website: http://estellewinsett.com/

Be sure to check out the Official Sponsors for the Lawyers in the Making Podcast:

Rhetoric - takes user briefs and motions and compares them against the text of opinions written by judges to identify ways to tailor their arguments to better persuade the judges handling their cases. Rhetoric's focus is on persuasion and helps users find new ways to improve their odds of success through more persuasive arguments. Find them here: userhetoric.com

The Law School Operating System™ Recorded Course - This course is for ambitious law students who want a proven, simple system to learn every topic in their classes to excel in class and on exams. Go to www.lisablasser.com, check out the student tab with course offerings, and use code LSOSNATE10 at checkout for 10% off Lisa's recorded course!

Start LSAT - Founded by former guest and 21-year-old super-star, Alden Spratt, Start LSAT was built upon breaking down barriers, allowing anyone access to high-quality LSAT Prep. For $110 you get yourself the Start LSAT self-paced course, and using code LITM10 you get 10% off the self-paced course! Check out Alden and Start LSAT at startlsat.com and use code LITM10 for 10% off the self-paced course!

Lawyers in the Making Podcast is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Claudio is a UNIARP Bachelor of Laws Graduate and currently works as the Founder and Podcast Host of Studying Law Around the World. Claudio’s journey is one of the few international guests we’ve had on the podcast, starting with Law School Brazil, to now Canada, with a trip working in Arizona! Claudio's viewpoint stands in a unique category of its own.

We started at Law School, where Claudio’s interest in his law-related college classes, as well as his focus on international studies, led him to the steps of Law School. While still a challenge, Claudio would excel in Law School, as well as create his well-known podcast, Studying Law Around the World. We spoke about what led him to create the podcast, and the impact it has had on now only on his life, but the lives of his listeners!

We then moved through Claudios’ various experiences leading up to today. Comparing and contrasting with the various places in the world he has worked, within the law. Claudio also spoke about his move to move to the University of Toronto Faculty of Law, and how he is on his way to becoming a lawyer in Toronto.

Finally, Claudio spoke about the importance of personal branding, offered tips for Law School, and emphasized the necessity of finding mentors and their importance throughout one’s career.

This episode with Claudio is one of the most interesting to date, with a perspective like none other that has graced the podcast before! Be sure to check out Claudio’s Podcast below, Studying Law Around the World.

Studying Law Around the World: https://pod.link/1547616885

Claudio’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/claudioklaus

Be sure to check out the Official Sponsors for the Lawyers in the Making Podcast:

Rhetoric - takes user briefs and motions and compares them against the text of opinions written by judges to identify ways to tailor their arguments to better persuade the judges handling their cases. Rhetoric's focus is on persuasion and helps users find new ways to improve their odds of success through more persuasive arguments. Find them here: userhetoric.com

The Law School Operating System™ Recorded Course - This course is for ambitious law students who want a proven, simple system to learn every topic in their classes to excel in class and on exams. Go to www.lisablasser.com, check out the student tab with course offerings, and use code LSOSNATE10 at checkout for 10% off Lisa's recorded course!

Start LSAT - Founded by former guest and 21-year-old super-star, Alden Spratt, Start LSAT was built upon breaking down barriers, allowing anyone access to high-quality LSAT Prep. For $110 you get yourself the Start LSAT self-paced course, and using code LITM10 you get 10% off the self-paced course! Check out Alden and Start LSAT at startlsat.com and use code LITM10 for 10% off the self-paced course!

Lawyers in the Making Podcast is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.