Matias Antonio (Avalanche Foundation Chief Investment Officer, ex-World Bank, ex-IMF) and Eric Lu (Avalanche Foundation Lead Economist, PhD) have built GCP and GCI — blockchain analogues of GDP and GNI — because nobody could say what value actually runs on a chain, only what volume does.

The harder half is capture: on every general-purpose L1, the value the chain makes possible does not flow through its token, and the fat-protocol thesis never explained why it should. Their answer is not taxation but a co-op — an incentive-compatible cut applications accept because protocol value is what secures them.

OUTLINE
00:00 - Cold open
00:51 - Welcome: Avalanche's economists on the show
01:50 - From the World Bank, the IMF, and a fund that blew up
05:54 - GCP and GCI: measuring what a chain actually produces
08:31 - Capture: why the value never reaches the token
09:24 - Distribute: paying validators without inflation
11:09 - The plain-English version: GDP, GNI and a very low tax rate
12:37 - Output vs income, and what each costs to tax
17:42 - Beyond transaction fees: dormant capital and the gas floor
24:39 - The Ethereum staking-ratio fight, and who pays validators
31:05 - A Laffer curve for a blockchain? Not a state — a co-op
35:26 - Why economists, and why now
46:16 - Twelve months out, and the network of networks

Guests:
Matias Antonio - Chief Investment Officer, Avalanche Foundation
Eric Lu - Lead Economist, Avalanche Foundation

Co-host:
John Wu - Senior Advisor, Ava Labs

Host links:
Kelvin Sparks - x.com/imyoungsparks
The Block - x.com/TheBlockCo

Layer One is a podcast focused on the intersection of crypto and the real world, brought to you in collaboration with Avalanche. Nothing on this podcast is investment or financial advice. Always do your own research.

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In Episode 17 of Layer One, The Block’s Kelvin Sparks and Ava Labs President John Wu were joined by Aave Labs Founder Stani Kulechov, who explained how the protocol that processed over $3 trillion in deposits is pointing its infrastructure at tokenized real-world assets — starting with Aave V4's first non-Ethereum deployment on Avalanche and the Horizon securities market. He also breaks down GHO, the forthcoming consumer Aave App, and why he thinks RWAs will double to $100 billion by the end of 2026. 

OUTLINE
00:00 - Introductions
03:15 - Aave by the Numbers
04:50 - V4 and Horizon
06:26 - The Great Convergence
11:11 - Why Avalanche
18:19 - Killing the Prime Broker
24:39 - Walled Gardens
32:33 - The GHO Engine
37:18 - The Aave App
44:23 - $100B by 2026

Guest links:
Stani Kulechov - x.com/StaniKulechov
Aave - x.com/Aave

Host links:
Kelvin Sparks - https://x.com/imyoungsparks⁠⁠⁠
John Wu - ⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/John1wu
The Block - https://x.com/TheBlockCo
Ava Labs - https://x.com/avalabs
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In Episode 16 of Layer One, The Block’s Kelvin Sparks is joined by Avalanche Treasury Company CEO Bart Smith. Bart explained the thesis behind treasury companies as a way to get regulated, permanent-capital exposure to AVAX and the Avalanche ecosystem. He also covers his Wall Street/ETF background, why real-world-asset tokenization needs "productive" assets to matter, and why he thinks crypto's investment thesis is stronger than ever.

OUTLINE
00:00 - Introduction
01:22 - What Is AVAT?
03:59 - Wall Street Roots & Crypto's Rise
06:19 - The Bitcoin ETF Bet
08:58 - Hiring a COO
11:13 - Why Own AVAT?
15:56 - Scaling Avalanche & RWAs
22:54 - DeFi, TradFi & AI Fears
33:03 - Policy Risks & RWA Forecast
40:08 - Closing Thoughts

Guest links:
Bart Smith - https://twitter.com/gbartsmith
AVAT - https://twitter.com/avat_co

Host links:
Kelvin Sparks - https://x.com/imyoungsparks⁠⁠⁠
John Wu - ⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/John1wu
The Block - https://x.com/TheBlockCo
Ava Labs - https://x.com/avalabs
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In Episode 15 of Layer One, The Block’s Kelvin Sparks and co-host Ava Labs President John Wu are joined by Blockchain Capital General Partner Spencer Bogart. The conversation explores stablecoins, prediction markets, token value accrual, privacy, public versus private blockchains and why the most valuable crypto applications of the future may not even exist today.

OUTLINE
00:00 - Introduction
02:01 - Things That Don't Exist
05:25 - Token Buybacks
09:11 - Privacy Challenge
11:06 - Regulation vs Privacy
12:17 - Value Accrual Debate
13:59 - Public vs Private Chains
17:43 - The Great Repricing
20:42 - Stablecoin Adoption
28:06 - Prediction Markets
45:18 - Crypto's Next Opportunity

Guest links:
Spencer Bogart - https://x.com/CremeDeLaCrypto
Blockchain Capital - https://x.com/bcap

Host links:
Kelvin Sparks - https://x.com/imyoungsparks⁠⁠⁠
John Wu - ⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/John1wu
The Block - https://x.com/TheBlockCo
Ava Labs - https://x.com/avalabs
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In Episode 14 of Layer One, The Block’s Kelvin Sparks and co-host Ava Labs President John Wu are joined by OpenTrade CEO David Sutter and Mercury Partner Samantha Lewis to break down the rapid growth of stablecoins and why yield infrastructure could become one of the most important layers of the onchain financial economy.

OUTLINE
00:00 - Introduction
01:26 - Bitcoin Origins
02:46 - Mercury’s Thesis
06:09 - Stablecoins Win
08:47 - Yield Infrastructure
11:58 - OpenTrade’s Model
20:59 - Stablecoin Adoption
31:32 - Clarity Act
38:07 - AI and Blockchain
51:46 - Bear Market Builders
55:31 - Closing Thoughts

Guest links:
David Sutter - https://x.com/btc_dave
Samantha Lewis - https://x.com/sjolewis
OpenTrade - https://x.com/opentrade_io
Mercury - https://x.com/mercuryfund

Host links:
John Wu - ⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/John1wu
Kelvin Sparks - https://x.com/imyoungsparks⁠⁠⁠
The Block - https://x.com/TheBlockCo
Ava Labs - https://x.com/avalabs
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In Episode 13 of Layer One, The Block’s Kelvin Sparks and co-host Ava Labs President John Wu are joined by Anna Wroblewska, Chief Business Officer at Dinari, to break down how tokenized equities are expanding access to U.S. capital markets globally.

She explains Dinari’s custodial model, how liquidity is sourced across traditional and onchain markets, and why infrastructure, not speculation, is the real unlock.

OUTLINE
00:00 - Introduction
01:32 - What Dinari Is
03:21 - Institutions Arrive
06:01 - Tokenized Trades
08:38 - 24/7 Markets
13:24 - Why B2B Rails
16:18 - Regulation and Access
24:31 - Global Investor Demand
30:29 - S&P Digital Index
47:54 - DeFi and Collateral

Guest links:
Anna Wroblewska - https://x.com/annabelleacta
Dinari - https://x.com/DinariGlobal

Host links:
John Wu - ⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/John1wu
Kelvin Sparks - https://x.com/imyoungsparks⁠⁠⁠
The Block - https://x.com/TheBlockCo
Ava Labs - https://x.com/avalabs
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After appearing in recent episodes, Ava Labs President John Wu officially joins Layer One as co-host. 🥳

In Episode 12, he joins Kelvin Sparks alongside Andre Frank, COO of Tassat, and Jerald David, CEO of Lynq, to discuss how Tassat and Lynq are rebuilding financial infrastructure with real-time settlement and yield-bearing assets on Avalanche.

The conversation covers the shift from legacy banking rails to always-on blockchain systems, capital efficiency through “yield in transit,” and the growing demand from institutions for compliant, risk-managed solutions.

OUTLINE
00:00 - Introduction
01:38 - Tassat Background
03:37 - What Lynq Is
05:55 - Episode Overview
06:42 - Avalanche Migration
08:48 - Why Avalanche
10:57 - Institutional Adoption
17:15 - Regulation and Compliance
25:23 - Yield in Transit
36:59 - Real-World Use Cases

Guest links:
Andre Frank -    / andre-frank 
Tassat - https://x.com/tassatgroup
Jerald David -   / jerald-david 
Lynq - https://x.com/Lynq_Network

Host links:
John Wu - ⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/John1wu
Kelvin Sparks - https://x.com/imyoungsparks⁠⁠⁠
The Block - https://x.com/TheBlockCo
Ava Labs - https://x.com/avalabs
Avalanche - https://x.com/avax

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In Episode 11 of Layer One, The Block’s Kelvin Sparks and special co-host Ava Labs President John Wu are joined by Matt Hougan, CIO of Bitwise, to discuss the launch of the Avalanche ETP and how institutional investors are approaching crypto exposure.

He breaks down the rapid expansion of tokenized real-world assets, the role of ETFs in onboarding capital, and why this cycle may differ from previous ones.

OUTLINE
00:00 - Introduction
01:40 - Avalanche ETP Overview
02:45 - ETF Differentiation
04:34 - Staking and Yield
06:19 - Institutional Strategy
09:04 - Competing L1 Models
14:22 - Bitcoin Price Thesis
18:49 - Dual Market Narratives
21:57 - Institutional Capital Flows
30:02 - AI and Crypto Future

Guest links:
Matt Hougan - https://x.com/Matt_Hougan
Bitwise - https://x.com/Bitwise
Ava Labs - https://x.com/avalabs

Host links:
John Wu - ⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/John1wu
Kelvin Sparks - https://x.com/imyoungsparks⁠⁠⁠
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In Episode 10 of Layer One, The Block’s Kelvin Sparks and special co-host Ava Labs President John Wu are joined by Carlos Domingo, CEO of Securitize, to discuss the rapid rise of tokenized financial assets and what it takes to bring them into regulated markets.

The conversation also covers regulatory clarity, BlackRock’s role in accelerating the space, and how tokenized assets will reshape capital markets over the next decade.

OUTLINE
00:00 - Intro
00:52 - Background and Origins
01:45 - First Tokenized Securities Trade
03:30 - Early Institutional Adoption
04:36 - NYSE Tokenization Partnership
07:05 - Why Public Equities First
09:57 - From Why to What
11:10 - Why Avalanche Was Chosen
12:48 - Compliance and Settlement
17:15 - What Drove Adoption

Guest links:
Carlos Domingo - https://x.com/carlosdomingo
Securitize - https://x.com/Securitize
John Wu - https://x.com/John1wu
Ava Labs - https://x.com/avalabs

Host links:
Steven Gates - ⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/stvngts⁠⁠⁠
Kelvin Sparks - https://x.com/imyoungsparks⁠⁠⁠
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In Episode 9 of Layer One, The Block’s Kelvin Sparks and Hypha founder Steven Gates were joined by Nicholas Kunkel (Chronicle) and Rhett Shipp (Avant) to break down the current state of DeFi and what’s actually holding the industry back. They argue that core primitives are already built, and the real unlock lies in tokenized assets, improved liquidity, and seamless integration with traditional finance.

The conversation also explores stablecoin economics, DAO limitations, on-chain credit markets, and what founders need to succeed in crypto today.

OUTLINE
00:00 - Intro
01:11 - Getting Into DeFi
04:38 - Early MakerDAO Days
08:43 - Where Value Accrues
12:23 - Yield and Stablecoins
17:56 - How DeFi Yield Works
23:34 - SubDAOs and Governance
30:33 - Do We Need New Primitives
36:25 - Tokenized Assets Unlock
53:55 - Founder Advice

Guest links:
Rhett Shipp - https://x.com/RhettShipp
Avant - https://x.com/avantprotocol
Niklas Kunkel - https://x.com/nomos_paradox
Chronicle - https://x.com/ChronicleLabs

Host links:
Steven Gates - ⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/stvngts⁠⁠⁠
Kelvin Sparks - https://x.com/imyoungsparks⁠⁠⁠
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