You’ve seen the headlines: Gen-Z Getting Fired. Employers Avoiding Hiring Gen-Z Employees. Perhaps to understand the generational struggle in American businesses today, we need to look back to March 2020. Simon Sinek, the author and speaker on business leadership, says the emotionality and intensity of the early pandemic taught him a great deal about himself and his relationships—in and out of the office—and even how to lead a new-era employee.

These moments contributed to the creation of the Optimism Company, Sinek’s digital learning platform, which helps companies inspire and develop their employees. Inc. executive editor Diana Ransom sat down with Sinek for what resulted in a deep discussion about how we think about emotion in the workplace, grappling with unproductivity, the complex relationship between friendship and entrepreneurship, the meaning of confidant ignorance, and, the question on so many leaders’ minds, how do we actually manage Gen-Z?