In this episode, Nick speaks with Lybi Ma about the importance of embracing all emotions, including those that are often deemed negative. They emphasize the need to sit with and process feelings rather than suppressing them, highlighting that experiencing emotions is a natural part of life.

What to listen for:

“We spend a lot of time negating half of our emotions. We want to feel happy and not depressed or not anxious, or we don’t want to feel anger. Feel these things.”

“People stop breathing when they’re tense and in the moment of being reactive to an unhappy situation. And when you stop breathing, cortisol goes up, and you become alert, and you’re looking for the predator. Just breathe and let your body work it out.”

About Lybi Ma

Lybi is the executive editor of Psychology Today. In addition to producing the print magazine, she also edits its website and blog platform, which hosts more than nine hundred authors, academic researchers, and journalists. She edited a Psychology Today book series covering topics such as anger, food addiction, and bipolar disorder. She has a blended family of five adult children and lives with her husband in Westchester, New York. Her newest book, HOW TO BE LESS MISERABLE, is available now from Blackstone Publishing.

Resources:

Interested in starting your own podcast or need help with one you already have? https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/podcasting-services/

Thank you for listening!

Please subscribe on iTunes and give us a 5-Star review! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-mindset-and-self-mastery-show/id1604262089

Listen to other episodes here: https://themindsetandselfmasteryshow.com/

Watch Clips and highlights: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk1tCM7KTe3hrq_-UAa6GHA

Guest Inquiries right here: [email protected]

Your Friends at “The Mindset & Self-Mastery Show”

Nick McGowan (00:00.971)
Hello and welcome to the Mindset and Self Mastery Show. I’m your host, Nick McGowan. Today on the show we have Libby, how you doing today?

Lybi Ma (00:10.338)
Good. Thank you for having me.

Nick McGowan (00:13.233)
Absolutely, I’m excited that you’re here. I told you, I thought you were gonna be really academic and I think you’re gonna be able to tie that in with being an actual human. And I’m excited with all this. So why don’t you get us started? Yes, thank you. Thank you for breathing air with the rest of us. Why don’t you get this started? Tell us what you do for a living and what’s one thing most people don’t know about you that’s maybe a little odd or bizarre?

Lybi Ma (00:25.121)
breathing.

Lybi Ma (00:38.39)
I am the executive editor at Psychology Today, and I’ve been there for quite a few decades. Not gonna tell you completely because I don’t want you to know my age. And something that, well, the thing about me is that we take my ex-husband on vacation with us. There you go.

Nick McGowan (01:06.644)
So I appreciate that you basically just hold the mic there, like about to drop it and like, what do you want to do with this? I feel like there are people that would be like, and here’s some context to it. So I’ve got to ask what, what do you mean? How does that work? Does he physically go with you or is he like in a box? Okay.

Lybi Ma (01:22.222)
Yeah, he’s, he comes with us. He shows up. We had three weddings in 13 months between my second husband and me. And they’re grown kids. And he came to my stepkids’ weddings and they call him Uncle Carl.

Nick McGowan (01:44.628)
Cool. That’s really awesome. That is an odd thing that I, unfortunately that I think most people don’t experience. Yeah. Well, this is, this is a good thing to start on too. Cause I’ve actually had this conversation with somebody recently where they’re like, yeah, I’ve got a young kid and the mom and I don’t really, we don’t work, but we work really well together for the kid.

Lybi Ma (01:54.211)
I gave you one, didn’t I? I gave you one.

Nick McGowan (02:10.919)
And that was really important. Like I could see him almost like put his foot in the ground. Like this is what we’re doing specifically for a child. That’s not how I grew up. Like my mom and dad, they’re still basically like a town or two apart from each other. They’ll see each other at a bar somewhere and like snarl at each other. Like I am 41 years old, calm down. It’s been a long ass time. However, my dad and his ex-wife are great friends because of the relationship that they had and all that. My dad actually…

Lybi Ma (02:29.613)
Okay.

Nick McGowan (02:40.827)
met her husband, shook his hand with a hundred dollar bill and said, thank you. It’s your turn. I’m like, the kahones on that man for that. But that’s an interesting thing that you can actually have that. Now I would imagine, look, you work for psychology today. You’ve probably done a lot of work on yourself and through your relationships and healed through things. But can you give us a little bit of context of like how the heck that works?

Lybi Ma (02:48.59)
I like that. That’s funny.

Lybi Ma (03:07.8)
So in the beginning when I first got divorced, I thought, I’m never speaking to this person again. And that lasted for a little while. And I actually worked through his second wife. I needed her to pick up the kids. So as you know, we had a very friendly situation. And I thought, well, this is not really good for the kids. So I think I better.

start being more amenable to the whole thing. And I got this job and it helped me. This job, I read a lot of information. Constance Ahrens did research. She did a good book on divorced kids. And basically divorced kids can do well if

The parents get along and there’s no conflict in their household. And as long as each parent has a good relationship with the child, they’re probably going to do well. And I will have to say that my children did very well.

So yeah, it worked out. And yeah, and it also helps when you have a person like my ex-husband who is very amiable. He wants to be friendly and he has a crazy romance with my husband, a bromance, sorry, not romance, a bromance. They have a thing going on. So there you go.

Nick McGowan (04:28.454)
awesome.

Nick McGowan (04:48.86)
Ha

Nick McGowan (04:54.473)
Which you probably didn’t think like we’re getting a divorce at some point I’ll be married again and he’ll be great friends with my then husband. Like could you have written that you know?

Lybi Ma (05:01.13)
No, no, I had no idea. No idea. No. Getting along is better. Yeah.

Nick McGowan (05:06.097)
Yeah.

That’s interesting. Yeah. But I, I find it interesting how sometimes we, people can say, there was this period of time and then a period of lapse. And then I realized this thing and then another period and here we are. There was a lot of time in between then and this conversation right now. And even the times where I’m sure you were super frustrated, upset, pissed the whole nine and then maybe I could do things different. And I think sometimes we blow past that because

Lybi Ma (05:33.25)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (05:39.312)
Maybe context isn’t always important in all the situations. However, I want to say it’s pretty much always super important. And that’s really what the purpose of the show is to be able to kind of talk about those tough times. Like you went through a divorce, but you saw it as I’m going to help with the kids. And this is more important for my kids. And now you’re seeing your kids in action from the result of what you guys have done. It’s really hard for people to see the stuff that they need to work on and be open to that, especially when they’re in a really, really difficult time going through it.

or post divorce or something like that. Now, how does that tie into the work that you’ve done and worked with for maybe just a couple decades? Don’t need to know your age. But being able to actually go through that stuff on your own and then literally work with psychology today and the psychologists and other people doing important work and you being a researcher yourself.

Lybi Ma (06:33.026)
Well, I’ll be honest with you. First of all, I’m not a researcher. take the researcher’s information and try to put it in accessible language so that people can relate. So you see all this information coming through and everything makes a whole lot of sense.

Nick McGowan (06:53.02)
sense.

Lybi Ma (07:02.38)
And I started to apply it to my own life. And it was very helpful. I became a wiser person because I work at this magazine. Yeah.

Nick McGowan (07:15.751)
Sure. Were there things that you can kind of look back to? Like kind of hovering around the same topic here, because I know it’s important, divorce kids and families and all that, but for you to be able to look back to and say, you know, if I wasn’t in the job that I am in, I probably would have been in different spot because you learn certain things because of the information you were seeing coming to you. And then just putting it into action. Like, is there anything that really stands out to you? Like, if I didn’t learn this.

Lybi Ma (07:23.95)
huh.

Nick McGowan (07:45.233)
I didn’t learn it this way, it would have all been different.

Lybi Ma (07:48.259)
Well, I think that when I was younger and the kids were little, I was newly divorced. I fought with life quite a bit.

And I think that is a main message in my book is fighting with life, it just doesn’t work. We have to plug on and not fight with it. I turn to, also turn to, you know, spiritual thought a little bit like Buddhism.

Buddhists accept things. This is how it is. So let’s just take this. You can’t change it. So let’s just try to make it work. Work with what you have. So that’s what I did. I worked with what I had. So I take a little bit of psychology and I mix it. My family.

Nick McGowan (08:56.134)
Little bit of this, little bit of that.

Lybi Ma (08:57.198)
Yeah, right. My family comes from the Tibetan, Ching Hai Plateau. And it is, Ching Hai is next door to Tibet. And actually, my grandfather was a trader, he had a donkey, and he put all his tea and shoelaces and whatever, know, spices on his

Nick McGowan (09:26.704)
Yeah.

Lybi Ma (09:27.032)
donkey and then he would go back and forth from Tibet to Qinghai. And they are, and these people in that area, there’s Tibetan Buddhists and they’re also Hui. The Hui are Chinese Muslims, which my family are Chinese Muslims. They come from that area and they’re very similar. They have a very similar sort of way of thinking.

and acceptance is a big part of it. And that didn’t work out. So we better turn over here and see if this is gonna work out. That’s the way it is.

Nick McGowan (10:09.637)
You

yeah. So let’s, let’s talk about that for a bit. Cause that does tie into even just being miserable or not miserable, let alone less miserable. So if we think of like, it’s funny cause I struggle with that at times. I, I curse like a fucking cartoon at different times. Like this thing doesn’t work. I’m like, just making noises and shit. And my partner on the other hand will go completely calm, silent almost and just methodical.

Lybi Ma (10:22.67)
Yeah, right.

Nick McGowan (10:42.717)
And it’s a thing that’s, I believe is actually part of her design, how she is. And I can get up at E and Nancy and all that. But then there are also layers to this where there’s trauma involved. There are different experiences, even things back to how our parents related to things. Like my parents would throw their arms up in the air about things. And I learned, I guess I do that. Like I get upset and pissed and like throw my arms up and flail. And my body still reacts at times that way where it’s like, yo, calm down. It’s totally fine. Being able to accept a thing.

Lybi Ma (10:57.44)
Nick McGowan (11:13.172)
in the split second and then start to move in a different direction can be harder for people because of the things that they’ve gone through and even the way that they are. But how have you found to be able to work within the way that you best operate to say, all right, well, I can find acceptance and I can move on from here. Because I think that’s really where, that’s where the change happens is those macro moments where we actually do something. Cause it’s easy for you and I to shoot the shit and talk about this stuff.

Lybi Ma (11:22.881)
yeah, certainly.

Nick McGowan (11:42.073)
But it’s in that moment where you’re like, and how you don’t do that. You know what I mean?

Lybi Ma (11:42.126)
Yeah.

Lybi Ma (11:48.493)
You know, I never had a moment of epiphany. It just sort of moved along in the right direction. So I’m not going to say, wow, I had this aha that I had to accept things in life. No, was in my mind, I was hanging this guy up by his toes for a long time. So, and I don’t think there’s wrong, there’s anything wrong with doing that.

if you have to feel it, then feel it. We spend a lot of time negating half our emotions. And that is something quite important and well studied. We want to feel happy and not depressed or not anxious or

Nick McGowan (12:19.897)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (12:36.866)
Yeah.

Lybi Ma (12:46.362)
We don’t want to feel anger or I don’t know. Well, you feel these things and okay, feel them. It doesn’t mean that you’re going to lash out and burn a car. No, you’re just going to feel them. Sit there and feel it and watch it. Watch it.

Nick McGowan (12:57.507)
Yeah.

Lybi Ma (13:05.102)
with you and then okay well I gotta get up and cook dinner for the family so I gotta get moving here so I’m not gonna sit here and dwell about it. Maybe I’ll make an appointment and that’s another therapy tool. Make an appointment. If you need to feel crummy then okay I felt crummy at 4 30 to 5. I’m gonna do the same thing tomorrow 4 30 to 5 and I’m gonna

Nick McGowan (13:13.365)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Lybi Ma (13:33.772)
sit with my feelings and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it.

Nick McGowan (13:36.109)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (13:40.544)
I’m right there with you. I think it’s important for us to feel that stuff where if you think about where we’re at right now, almost 2026 with technology and the amount of information, like we see all these things like social media, for example, you hop on, you see somebody doing this big thing, but you don’t have the context of all the other things that have happened before that or even 20 minutes before that when they’re screaming at somebody to get out of their way in the grocery store or whatever. And it’s like,

This is what I said to you, I appreciate you being human because that moment where you’re like, this really hurts. I still got to make dinner for these people. We all got to eat tonight. Let me do that. And let me not also then just drag that out. And I find having the amount of conversations I have with people on the podcast and outside of that with clients, just random people that I come into contact with, it’s always interesting to me how somebody will, we want to always put up a better face than what’s really going on.

Lybi Ma (14:17.102)
Yeah

Nick McGowan (14:38.499)
And you also don’t want to just be completely shitty and just the world is on fire and totally. people have seemed to have a hard time finding equanimity within themselves to then be able to have a conversation outside of that. And it sounds to me like what you’ve experienced that a lot of us have, where it’s like over the course of time, the rock just gets smoother because the water was going over it. You finally go, okay, it’s been six months. I’ve been upset about this for so long, but some people still.

Lybi Ma (15:05.486)
Exactly.

Nick McGowan (15:07.296)
they still just keep going with that hatred for it, which I guess is kind of a different topic. But your book with being less miserable.

Lybi Ma (15:15.404)
No, think hatred is, no, hatred is important. I mean, if you’re gonna wallow in it, that’s probably not good, but sometimes anger, good anger used constructively will make you do things that are important in life. But hating people outright, I don’t know. I’m not too sure about that.

Nick McGowan (15:25.954)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (15:35.394)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (15:43.811)
Yeah, there are enough of those people that are sitting in an office. The rest of the government shut down right now. yeah, it’s interesting because I think that’s where I was headed with the wallowing in it. Like any of this, you don’t want to wallow in it, but you do need to sit in it. Like I’ve had conversations with people that they have a really hard time. It’s like the stove is too hot to even get close to touch it. And then there are other people that like they can put their entire body on it.

Lybi Ma (15:50.894)
my goodness.

Nick McGowan (16:13.142)
They can roll around on it like a bed of needles almost, you know, and just sit there. I find that that’s an interesting thing because that’s part of maybe their design, but also they’ve gotten to a point, some of them, where they go, look, I can’t do anything outside of the stuff that’s happening. So I can only do something with what I have here. So why waste my time anymore? Like they’ve wallowed enough or they’ve gone through enough of it.

Lybi Ma (16:36.031)
Right, right, right, right. Yeah.

Nick McGowan (16:40.054)
But how does this tie back into the stuff that you talk about specifically with miserable? Like that was part of the reason why I wanted to have you on here. was like, the word miserable is one of those things where there’s not really anything pleasant to it. It’s just fucking miserable. Like here we are.

Lybi Ma (16:54.638)
It’s the truth. Because we put the Western society puts a lot of weight on happiness. Happiness has to be a goal. And everybody runs around with their bucket lists and they have to do this and that to be happy. Well, no. Sure, you’re gonna go and see the Northern Lights. That’s nice. And you’re gonna be happy.

But then you come down to your set level of mood that is well studied. We go up, we come down. grumpy people are in a certain spot. More upbeat people are up here and they move higher, but they always move down to their set level. And that is a hedonic adaptation. We just come back down to where.

where we are in life. So the word happiness is not on my book cover because, you know, it’s, we should feel okay about not being happy all the time. That’s all there is to it. We’re not going to reach that crazy happiness all the time. It’s just not, I don’t think that’s realistic. I would rather be.

Nick McGowan (18:22.177)
Great.

Lybi Ma (18:23.02)
I want to be practical. And the other part is when we judge how we feel, I’m not happy, I must be a loser. any time you judge this feeling that you’re having, well, guess what? People have studied that and you kind of feel worse. You feel worse because you’re judging it.

Nick McGowan (18:25.141)
Yeah.

Lybi Ma (18:50.766)
It’s a funny thing. Yeah, I think it was came from UC Berkeley, researchers there. Yeah, you’re gonna sit there and say things about yourself that are not true. You’re making them up really. You’re gonna feel worse. So I don’t think we should try to be happy all the time. We can just.

Nick McGowan (18:51.403)
Yeah.

Lybi Ma (19:18.604)
be practical and just own up to all these things that we feel and not judge them.

Nick McGowan (19:26.305)
Obviously easier said than done for a good chunk of people. But that is, it’s such a critical piece where it’s like, if we, if we spend that time, like I know I’ve done this personally, where being angry or upset about something, you feel like you’re being active in it, but you’re just being animated in it. And you just keep going deeper and deeper down. I would spiral in that many, many years ago. And then learning from it, you go,

Yeah, you can reach a point where you go, I’m just kind of bored with this. And this doesn’t make any sense to do this anymore. So why would I do that? But we do see stuff where people are talking about all the success that they had and the 15 year overnight success sort of situations where it’s like, if this person’s happy constantly, cause that’s all they post or whatever. And stepping outside of that, actually being within ourselves. I’d love that you’d said that you’re more in the country than you are with

everybody else and being by yourself and being away from people, I would imagine you then have more time to actually be able to say, how do I feel right now? And do what you want with it instead of saying, well, I’m told I need to do something different, you know?

Lybi Ma (20:39.95)
Right, right. Well, who’s telling you to do it, first of all? Which one? I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know.

Nick McGowan (20:44.794)
Yeah, well, sometimes it’s, Yeah. One of the voices, one of the many up there. So what actually led you to start the process to write the book? Did you just get so frustrated within yourself of like, have to put this out there? Did this kind of come up organically?

Lybi Ma (20:55.69)
Yeah, I don’t know.

Lybi Ma (21:07.944)
No, well, you know, I got over my…

Lybi Ma (21:17.366)
negative feelings about divorce and all that. And I moved on and plugged on. So that was good. I just, every time I read a new piece of research, I would squirrel it away. And I thought, yeah, that goes with the feelings that I had back then of being miserable. So I would squirrel it away. And then when COVID happened, I watched people.

and they were interesting to watch. Some people did very well. Some people did very poorly. And I don’t want to get into a conversation about the introvert and the extrovert, whatever. I’m just talking about emotions and sitting with them generally, because even introverts need people. We’re all social. So that’s not really part of what I’m talking about.

I just watched all of it and I thought, you know what, I think I have enough information here to write a book. So COVID sort of pushed me a little bit.

Nick McGowan (22:31.231)
Thanks, COVID. Yeah.

Lybi Ma (22:32.398)
I guess so. I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know about that. Yeah, people were, I watched people and they had a lot of, you know, negative reaction to a negative thing that was happening. They were told to stay at home and then, and then get into a loop of bad feelings. It just went on and on and on.

And I found that the thoughts that they had were quite irrational. And that is something also well studied. The brain is not very logical. It also has a very negative bias. are evolved into thinking negatively.

Yeah, ancient man needed to be worried about predators and being eaten. They needed to be alert. is that a bad thing around the corner that’s going to eat me? Well, we the human brain has not changed that much. And we still do it. did that person insult me? And we got

Nick McGowan (23:56.958)
Yeah.

Lybi Ma (23:57.535)
And then you start doing this thing and it’s very, very not rational. It’s not positive. It’s pretty negative. And you just keep going in this distorted fashion. these negative things have a lasting impression and positive things are less important. And there was an interesting study where researchers

Nick McGowan (24:03.496)
Yeah.

Lybi Ma (24:27.102)
showed study subjects photographs.

people on a roller coaster maybe or something neutral like a hairdryer and a gun pointed at you and people remember the gun. So negative things have a lasting impression.

And this bias that we have, it makes sure that we hold on to our insults and grievances. We do a lot of things in our head that are irrational. Jump to conclusions, my date hated me, a fortune teller. Why would they even call me back anyway? Mind read.

Nick McGowan (25:09.854)
Yeah.

Lybi Ma (25:22.39)
I know that you’re thinking about me and it’s bad, all or nothing. I will not be happy until the end of time. Those sort of things. We do these things over and over and over to ourselves. really it doesn’t seem to be helping.

Nick McGowan (25:44.625)
No, but we all, I think, are somewhat addicted to it. And we don’t think that other people go through it. It’s almost like when we say, well, this person’s looking at me or what are they thinking about me? They’re probably not. And if they did, they noticed something and then they’re thinking about themselves. Like, I had that same jacket. Do I look like an asshole in that jacket? Is that me? And they’re off thinking about themselves. Meanwhile, both of them are like, my God, what are they thinking?

Lybi Ma (25:49.761)
Yeah, yeah.

Lybi Ma (25:59.139)
That you’re right.

Lybi Ma (26:09.368)
They’re so right. You are so right. They’re too busy thinking about themselves like we are too busy thinking about ourselves. It’s just we’re worried about how we look, how we appear. Did I say that? was it stupid? Did I sound stupid? whatever.

Nick McGowan (26:19.911)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (26:27.71)
I think there’s a bit of a caveat though, because there are also times where we can grow from that stuff, because we can say, the situation in this whatever office or this call or whatever didn’t go the way that I wanted to, what could I have done differently? Like sort of watching game tape in a sense on yourself, but not beating yourself up with it and not in every single situation.

Lybi Ma (26:51.278)
Yeah, that part.

Nick McGowan (26:54.235)
Yeah, and being like, all right, well, what can I learn from this? What can I do a little differently? There’s a power within that, but then also removing the nonsensical shit. I’ve gotten to the point where I probably talk to myself more so than I did before and be like, easy there, asshole, calm down. Because like, random noises will come from other rooms, it seems, in the back of my head. Like, you can’t do that. You look like an asshole, that jacket. I’m like, shut up. Like, let me just kind of go.

But being able to understand that there’s a balance to learning and growing and being able to review things and say, could I do a little differently? And beating yourself up can be a razor’s edge. But what kind of advice do you give for people that are trying to figure that stuff out? And they obviously don’t want to be miserable, but they’re also sort of addicted to that feeling of it because they’re so used to it, you know?

Lybi Ma (27:50.062)
One of the main things that I’ve read

We have to be more aware that we’re doing it. and speak to ourselves.

maybe in the third person. Libby’s doing that again. She’s disappointed and it’s turning into this thing. And now that distorted thinking is taken off. Okay, Libby, stop that. We have to be aware and point it out. So great research from University of Michigan.

Nick McGowan (28:12.177)
Yep.

Lybi Ma (28:35.15)
you observe. And that’s Buddhist to me. You observe this thought and meditation is a little like that. there’s a thought, watch it go by. That’s nice. Whatever. It’s a thought. It’s not real. And a lot of times our thoughts lie to us. So don’t do it.

at least if you if you keep doing it, know that you’re doing and then in addition to that, you label it. So if it’s a feeling, well, Libby is angry at not right now because XYZ happened and she’s going to hold on to this grievance and nurse that grievance until whenever. Okay, that’s nice. You know, you’re doing that again. So

We label how we feel. I’m feeling sad right now. That’s good. I’m feeling angry right now. And talk to yourself a little bit, but not in a, you say, beat yourself up mode. And then you turn to self-sabotage. So you want to numb yourself. It goes into this cycle of…

Nick McGowan (30:02.747)
Yeah, vicious cycle.

Lybi Ma (30:04.502)
Yeah, yeah, turns into a cycle. You beat yourself up and it leads leads to this negativity and you’re not very nice to yourself. So that’s another thing. Self-compassion is very important. Water research on that. You want to count right. You want to be compassionate to your to ourselves and breathe while you’re being compassionate.

Nick McGowan (30:21.915)
Yeah, grace with ourselves even.

Lybi Ma (30:34.626)
People stop breathing and when they’re tense and in the moment of being reactive to an unhappy situation and when you stop breathing, well, cortisol goes up and you become alert and you’re looking for the predator. No, you know what? Just breathe and let your body work it out. It’s not bad.

Nick McGowan (30:36.815)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (30:52.165)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (31:03.226)
I love this sort of stuff. I love that we’re able to get into this because I know there are other, I don’t want to talk bad about any podcasts or other people’s interviews or anything like that. But there are conversations out there that are very surfacey where it can talk about, yeah, you want to be aware and you want to look at these things and then do some with it. You want to show grace to yourself. And we also need to talk about when it’s really difficult to do that because even in like the moment you just said where you stopped breathing.

scientifically, that takes oxygen away from your blood. Your blood is no longer moving oxygen through the rest of your fucking body. And your brain is a part of that. So it’s like science-wise, that makes sense. I think there’s also a balance of not just saying, I’m aware of this thing and if I’m shitty again, then so be it. I’m aware of it. It’s doing something with it, not beating yourself up and still being able to understand that I can’t bypass this.

Lybi Ma (31:37.538)
Right.

Nick McGowan (32:02.521)
Because I think that’s where the happiness stuff comes in. If you’re feeling bad, just go be happy. cool, great. Fuck the trauma and all the other nonsense that I absolutely need to process out of my body. Let me just go be happy. And then you go be happy and you do a thing and you go, like you said earlier, right back to your own little status quo and you go, shit, I am still a miserable bastard. What do I do from here? Let me look for another happy thing. And you’re like, off to do it again. Just bypassing the bullshit, you know?

Lybi Ma (32:10.574)
I

Lybi Ma (32:28.846)
Right. doesn’t really, you always go back to where you were.

Nick McGowan (32:37.294)
Yeah, awareness is such a big thing that my logical and smart-ass mind thinks, well, that makes total sense to me. Because if you’re not aware, how the fuck are you aware? Like if you don’t know a thing’s there, you can’t do anything about it. But that’s really when the work begins. Like you’re aware and you go, I’m aware of this feeling. And I’m glad that you brought up the next part of that being naming it. That is really difficult for a lot of people to name.

Lybi Ma (32:41.046)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (33:05.24)
what their emotion is. They go, I’m just angry. Really, maybe you’re grieving or maybe you’re really upset that’s not just anger, but it’s a betrayal that happened or something like that. And actually being able to call what it is instead of just going, just a sticker almost. You’re like, and I’m shitty right now and push it off to the next thing and just move along instead of actually doing that work. But that, I don’t know. I feel like I can go.

Lybi Ma (33:29.944)
Right.

Nick McGowan (33:32.557)
deep with it because that’s where systems come into play that tell us, don’t do this, just keep working, just keep hustling, keep grinding, keep blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It makes me almost just wanna fucking throw up in my mouth every time I even think about it. Cause it’s like, we are hurting ourselves, we’re hurting each other and we’re perpetuating it because none of us are just going, time out. Give me a fucking second. What is this? What am I feeling? So talk to us about how the book relates to that.

Lybi Ma (34:02.349)
Lybi Ma (34:06.018)
Sitting with our emotions, you mean?

Nick McGowan (34:08.677)
And understanding like if you’re feeling miserable and being less miserable is still taking away that but it’s not bypassing it. It’s not letting you bypass it.

Lybi Ma (34:17.386)
No, no, you have to feel what you feel. Otherwise, it’s not true. You have this feeling and it’s a true feeling and you should feel it. once you do that, you let yourself do that, you will probably break through a bit more to get beyond and be less miserable.

You know, you will probably thank yourself. I do. I do. You know, it’s an interesting thing. My husband and I don’t fight very often, but we’ve been through tense, you know, when you move and all that stuff. And yeah, it’s not easy. And I can catch myself.

Oh, wait, I’m being reactive at this moment. And I’ll just stop and think, wow, that’s interesting. I’m doing it. I’m doing it at this very moment. And I start talking out loud. all right, hang with me for a minute here while I think about why I’m having this reaction. Why am I having this reaction? What is bringing this up?

Nick McGowan (35:39.383)
Yeah.

Lybi Ma (35:46.219)
I think we need to stop because you start spinning in that in a certain direction of negativity and you might as well just stop it and just ask yourself, what’s what is this and observe and instead of being in it, just step outside and and look at it. Yeah.

Nick McGowan (35:54.274)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (36:07.256)
and look at it. Yeah. Huh. And that’s, that’s a simple, like incredible thing though, to say live in the moment, like, hold on, give me a second. I’m feeling something. Let me work through this and come back to you. it’s almost like having a conversation, a heated conversation and saying, I need a second and stepping away. That could be really, really difficult for a lot of people in that moment because you’re so in it, but

If you think about any time you’ve ever said that, even to yourself or to your husband or anybody else.

Lybi Ma (36:40.942)
Mm-hmm.

Nick McGowan (36:45.816)
Probably most every single time they’ve respected it.

Lybi Ma (36:49.686)
Yes. Yes, you’re not, you’re not trying to run from the situation. You’re just trying to understand what’s going on inside yourself. And a lot of times when you’re in a fight with a partner or someone, usually it’s person closest to you, because they’re the ones who are gonna forgive you. But usually it’s just sort of,

you know, not, it isn’t about that moment. It’s about something else. Something else is going on. Yeah, it brings up some, yeah, go ahead.

Nick McGowan (37:33.815)
And it’s not… Yeah.

It’s not just those people. We often will take it out on the people we love because they’re the closest and they know us the most. And yes, you said they will forgive us, but that doesn’t give us a license to abuse the shit out of them because you’re angry that somebody took the last fucking piece of bread at whatever grocery store or whatever happened earlier. And you’re like, God damn the person closest to me. It’s like, but what do they do? what? Yeah.

Lybi Ma (37:51.246)
to do that.

Lybi Ma (38:00.303)
Yeah.

Lybi Ma (38:04.682)
nothing. They’re just standing there. They’re standing there. I don’t know. They’re just standing there. Yeah. I think one another way to, since you’re looking for ways to counter it, I mean, you know, there’s many things to do, you start being more mindful. So I try to call out my reactivity with being mindful, breathe, I write things down.

Nick McGowan (38:10.327)
Yeah.

Lybi Ma (38:34.67)
And I try to be grateful in the moment. You’re having a fight and I try to be grateful to the person I’m fighting with. If you show them grace and your self grace and you’ll get through the dumb fight, whatever it was that you’re, and just go with the flow of things. I don’t mean lay down and just die. What I mean is,

Nick McGowan (38:44.47)
Sure. Yeah.

Nick McGowan (38:54.548)
Yeah.

Lybi Ma (39:04.301)
You.

get into the flow of life. And there’s been quite a lot of work on the topic of flow for decades. we move with what is happening. Flow is more complicated than that. mean, it has to do with…

Nick McGowan (39:13.056)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (39:26.208)
Yeah.

Lybi Ma (39:33.132)
being very, very engaged in what you’re doing. So a writer would feel flow when they’re writing or the piano player is really into the music or even listening to music, you running, you get in the flow, but you can apply the flow theory into life, everyday life. Just go with it. I think that’s important.

Nick McGowan (39:58.038)
That’s really important. And I appreciate that you point out these things that in some ways, and as I said earlier, there are other conversations that get real surfacey and they go, yeah, go with the flow. Cool. Let’s stop there. Just go with the flow. Being able to be mindful, to talk about these things, even with the gratitude. Like I’ve heard for years and years, people are like, just be grateful and gratitude this and gratitude that and have a gratitude journal, blah, blah, blah. It’s like all those things can be good and helpful if they are good and helpful. If you’re just being

Lybi Ma (40:24.192)
Right.

Nick McGowan (40:25.065)
grateful and you’re like, I fucking had this and God, I’m grateful for it. But even in that moment of being grateful that you have a partner to be able to argue with and, and yeah. And then that’ll automatically just disarm you a little bit. Like even as you’re saying that I’m picturing it and picturing, you know, me with my partner arguing about whatever. And to think of that, I just want to hug her because I love her. I love that I have the partner to be able to

Lybi Ma (40:29.518)
All right.

Lybi Ma (40:35.778)
Right? A lot of people don’t.

Lybi Ma (40:42.755)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (40:53.737)
bitch can complain about things with or whatever. And it’s like, if we can be aware of that and actually show the grace and do the thing in the moment, instead of just saying, just be grateful and gratitude this and gratitude that. It’s like, fuck your gratitude unless you’re actually gonna do something with it. Because then it’s the moment, that moment right there where you do something with it instead of just saying, well, I’m just gonna go back to my old ways and just be kind of shitty about it. So for the people that are trying to be less miserable.

Lybi Ma (41:09.23)
Ha

Nick McGowan (41:23.375)
or trying to just wrap their head around how they can give themselves grace and kind of work through life at their pace instead of just what the rest of the world tells us we should do. What’s your advice for somebody that’s on their path towards self mastery?

Lybi Ma (41:40.275)
Give yourself a break, please. Good Lord. I don’t know why we have to be so hard on ourselves. And we run around looking for solutions to everything. Well, sometimes, you know, life does work out. It does work out. And I think we don’t have to make it harder.

Nick McGowan (41:42.793)
Nice.

Lybi Ma (42:09.774)
We make it harder, we fight with life, and I think we can watch it a little. Doesn’t mean that we should not be proactive and move forward and reach our goals, but we can calm down a bit about how we treat ourselves, and you will be less miserable.

Nick McGowan (42:35.093)
I love that, especially like the come down. Like that’s the vibe I got like right off the bat. Chill out, give yourself a break. Just relax. It’s not the end of the world. And yeah, just chill out.

Lybi Ma (42:39.95)
Yeah.

It isn’t. It is not the end of the world. Bad things do happen and it feels like it’s going to be the end of the world, but actually things do work out. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right.

Nick McGowan (42:55.379)
Yeah, divorces. You know, the people that have gone through it, you understand that. I had different people when I got a divorce, they were like, man, I was in bad shape for years. And I was like, well, that sucks. I don’t want to go through that. And I’m like, well, I didn’t get a, I didn’t get married to get a divorce, but I didn’t get a divorce to die. So, and I’m thankful it happened. I mean, I wish her the best, but I wouldn’t have my partner now. I wouldn’t have my business and all the other things that have come from it.

Lybi Ma (43:06.296)
Right, right.

Lybi Ma (43:14.927)
Right.

Nick McGowan (43:24.777)
But I want to touch on something you pointed out where it’s like, give yourself a break, the things will work out and things happen. I was actually sort of joking, but sort of like, this is just a mind fuck of a thing with my coach recently, where I understand that the right things happen at the right times. Always. It’s actually an affirmation of mine. It’s the anxiety before and the anxiety after that exact one moment. Because that one moment is where like, these things happen at the right time. Like, look.

Lybi Ma (43:50.828)
Okay.

Nick McGowan (43:54.45)
And I’ve seen it happen. Like it lines up where it’s like, I couldn’t have scripted this. God was like, this is how this thing’s going to work. And it’s like, that’s incredible. But there’s anxiety for the 98 % before and all the other stuff after it, where it’s like that one moment. But that one moment happens and happens more often than not, know? So it’s just a weird little situation that we can get lost in all the other minutia of it.

Lybi Ma (44:17.825)
Right, right.

Nick McGowan (44:23.912)
So I appreciate you being as real as you are. I’m like, just calm down, chill out. It’ll be okay.

Lybi Ma (44:24.152)
Right.

It’s gonna be okay. I wish I told my, knew that when I was younger. It’s gonna be okay. It will be.

Nick McGowan (44:36.616)
Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. And just like, if you could go back and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you say? And I think most people probably say it with a fist and then shake them a little bit with whatever, like whatever you’re going to do, don’t. but that’s what this podcast is for. Like, let’s talk about these things because we’re all going through it. Like, let’s not shy away from that. We all go through this stuff. So, Libby, I really appreciate you being on today. I appreciate the work that you’re doing.

Lybi Ma (44:51.224)
Hahaha

Lybi Ma (45:03.894)
All right.

Nick McGowan (45:05.208)
and you’re putting out the books that you are and just that you’re able to work with that information that’s coming to you and help spread that out and being as real as you are. So thank you for being here. Of course, and before I let you go, where can people find you and where can they connect with you? And of course, where can they get the book?

Lybi Ma (45:14.882)
Thank you.

Lybi Ma (45:22.478)
Well, of course, I’m on Psychology Today. You’ll find me there on the website. And you’ll find my book on the, you know, any major source like Amazon or Barnes & Noble, that sort of thing.

Nick McGowan (45:44.541)
Perfect. And I’ll have some of those links in the show notes too. So again, thank you so much for being with us today. Appreciate it.

Lybi Ma (45:50.933)
Thank you.