In today’s episode, Nat Neil and Adil discuss the Tao Te Ching by Laozi. We each picked a few of our favorite chapters from the book to read and discuss, resulting in a wide-ranging discussion of work, happiness, ambition, finance, philosophy, and all our usual favorite subjects.  Some of the topics we covered were:  The importance of not over-extending yourself, being moderate and patient What does it mean to prioritize “inaction”?  The balance between short and long-term productivity Which parts of the Tao do we each struggle with the most What it means to seek a “middle path.”  Plus lots of tangents around fitness, entrepreneurship, work, other books, and more.  Be sure to stick around for the end, where Nat and Neil discuss our new plans for the show and where it’s going in 2023.  Remember to subscribe if you haven’t, and leave us a review on iTunes or Spotify if you liked the episode! Timestamps (1:10) - How different drugs created different financial crashes & philosophies (3:22) - Background on the Tao Te Ching (11:15) - Variations in the translations of the Tao Te Ching (17:00) - What is the “real” version of old texts? (21:20) - The theme of finding the middle ground, and inaction. Chapter 64. “If you rush into action, you will fail. If you hold on too tight, you will loose your grip. Therefore the Master lets things take their course and thus never fails.” (27:00) - The importance of doing nothing. Chapter 48. “He who conquers the world often does so by doing nothing. When one is compelled to do something, The world is already beyond his conquering.” (33:50) - The difference between short-term and long-term productivity. Sometimes doing nothing in the short term is the best strategy for the long term.  (42:00) - Chapters 68, 24. The importance of being balanced, avoiding going to extremes. Avoiding the consequences of intense competition. “He who stands on tiptoe does not stand firm.” (51:00) - What’s something you’re doing that’s incongruous with the advice in the Tao? Neils: Shiny object syndrome. (54:00) - Nat’s: Impatience with professional success. (1:05:00) - Adil’s: Shiny object syndrome. (1:07:00) - The problem with the practical vs. the ideal, giving and receiving advice.  (1:15:00) - Unintuitive advice in fitness. (1:21:00) - Aiming at a specific goal vs. aiming in abstract. (1:24:00) - The power of having a good adversary for bringing out your best. (1:28:00) - Wrapup: Upcoming books, plans for the podcast Mentioned in the Show  Byrne Hobart (on Lunar Society) (1:10) Analects of Confucius (two episodes from now) (4:51)  Tao in You Website (11:15) ChatGPT (14:00) Nicomachean Ethics by Aristotle (25:00)  The Alchemy of Finance by George Soros (29:05) Tyler Cowen (31:50)  Cal Newport on Sam Harris (33:40) John McPhee (34:00) Children of Time, Adrian Tzchaicovsky (Nat got the age wrong, he was 46) (56:00) Godel Escher Bach, Douglas Hofstadter.  Episode link (1:04:00) Antifragile, Nassim Taleb.  Episode link (1:12:00) The Gibraltar skull (1:14:00) The Structure of Scientific Revolutions.  Episode link. (1:15:00) Finite and Infinite Games.  Episode link. (1:22:00) The Inner Game of Tennis.  Episode link. (1:23:00) Robert Nozick (1:24:00) John Rawls (1:24:00) Huberman Lab Podcast (1:25:00) The Comfort Crisis (next episode!) (1:29:00) 

85: Lessons from Laozi, the Tao Te Ching

Made You Think is a podcast by Nat Eliason, Neil Soni, and Adil Majid where the hosts and their guests examine ideas that, as the name suggests, make you think. Episodes will explore books, essays, podcasts, and anything else that warrants further discussion, teaches something useful, or at the very least, exercises our brain muscles.

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"We’ve never had a generation more focused on its feelings and, frankly, not one more tyrannized by their feelings.” Welcome back to another episode of Made You Think! Today, we're delving into Abigail Shrier's  Bad Therapy, a thought-provoking book which highlights the impact of therapy on individuals, especially younger generations. Join us as we explore the nuances of therapy, its incentives, and its effects. We cover a wide range of topics including:  Challenges of parenting in a therapy-centric culture Unintended consequences of therapeutic incentives The fine line between taking thoughts too seriously vs. dismissing them Why boundary-setting is crucial as a parent Implications of having an external locus of control  And much more. Please enjoy, and make sure to follow Nat, Neil, and Adil on Twitter and share your thoughts on the episode. Links from the Episode: Mentioned in the Show:  Arnold (15:37) Spiritual bypassing (23:21)  Washington Post on birth control (46:55) How We Feel (54:01)  Coach Carter (57:47)  How to Understand the Well-Being Gap between Liberals and Conservatives (1:25:31)    Books Mentioned:   Bad Therapy  The Body Keeps the Score (07:09) (Book Episode)   Irreversible Damage (40:44)  The Fourth Turning (1:08:32) (Book Episode)   People Mentioned:  Abigail Shrier  Show Topics: (0:00) In today’s episode, we’re covering Bad Therapy by Abigail Shrier, who discusses the impact of therapy on individuals, particularly younger generations, and questions the efficacy and motives behind widespread therapeutic practices.  (1:57) We provide an overview of the book, examining the sense of loneliness and sadness prevalent in today's youth. It poses the question of whether therapy-related interventions are actually a part of the problem rather than the solution.  (5:32) How incentives in therapy can sometimes lead to unintended consequences. Shrier highlights that therapists often prefer patients with milder mental health issues, as these sessions can be more relaxed. This raises questions about the subjective nature of screening and diagnostic tools in mental health care. (10:15) The distinction between chronic and acute treatment, noting how the medical industry often favors chronic cases for their profitability. We touch on various types of therapy, noting that the results of physical therapy, for example, are much more tangible than talk therapy. (12:42) Nat, Neil, and Adil talk a bit about their personal experiences with therapy. (15:55) Why going to the gym and being physically active can improve well-being, and how it offers a sense of control and measurable progress in various aspects of life. (21:12) Shrier emphasizes the lack of agency children have in deciding to continue or end therapy. We also discuss how dwelling on problems, or forced rumination, can exacerbate issues, especially in the context of depression and anxiety. (25:19) We discuss how therapy can often lead us to give undue weight to passing thoughts, turning them into more significant concerns than they should have been. (29:33) It can be a challenge for parents to know when to seek therapy for children or teens. The author suggests exploring all alternatives before turning to therapy. We also dive into the theme of internal vs. external locus of control, where the fear of making mistakes can lead to seeking external validation. (34:25) Are doctors too quick to prescribe medications in non-serious cases? (39:51) Where is the balance between taking every thought and emotion seriously vs. dismissing them? We discuss generational differences, stoic parenting, the importance of discussing feelings with a trusted friend or partner, and the impact on children who feel unheard. (45:30) Similar to therapy and mental health, public sentiments on various topics can evolve over time. Nat, Neil, and Adil draw parallels with the changing views on vaccines, from widespread acceptance to increased skepticism post-Covid. We also touch on the topic of birth control, highlighting the lack of female perspectives in these discussions often dominated by male doctors. (53:26) Happiness, when constantly pursued, can often evade us. Instead, we explore the concept of finding contentment and balance in life, recognizing that happiness is not always the ultimate objective. (56:50) When we attribute our life circumstances solely to external factors, it can lead us to feel powerless. (1:02:37) We explore the notion of discipline and touch upon various parenting styles, including gentle parenting.  (1:06:05) Differences in the cultural dynamics of Zen X and Millennial parents. Each generation has its parenting narrative. It's about finding the balance between micromanaging and giving your child space, allowing kids to explore within set boundaries. (1:09:14) We discuss the dynamics of the nuclear family and how it affects the level of involvement from extended family members. (1:14:11) Differences in parenting style based on immigration status, and how punishment was carried out between different generations of parents.  (1:18:37) There's an internal pressure to be a flawless parent, often fueled by therapy that revisits childhood experiences. This cycle of rumination can lead to hyper-vigilance in parenting. (1:24:08) Social media's impact on how we view and express ourselves on different issues. (1:28:56) The level of risk in your humor often reflects the closeness of your relationships. However, we must be careful as words can always be misconstrued. (1:31: 37) Can empathy actually have negative consequences? Nat, Neil, and Adil share their final thoughts and takeaways from the book. (1:36:48) That wraps up this episode! If you were intrigued by today's discussion, check out  Bad Therapy by Abigail Shrier. Next up on the show, we'll be covering  Einstein’s Dreams. Also, be sure to check out our new Instagram page! If you enjoyed this episode, let us know by leaving a review on iTunes and tell a friend. As always, let us know if you have any book recommendations! You can say hi to us on Twitter @TheRealNeilS, @adilmajid, @nateliason and share your thoughts on this episode. You can now support Made You Think using the Value-for-Value feature of Podcasting 2.0. This means you can directly tip the co-hosts in BTC with minimal transaction fees. To get started, simply download a podcast app (like Fountain or Breez) that supports Value-for-Value and send some BTC to your in-app wallet. You can then use that to support shows who have opted-in, including Made You Think! We’ll be going with this direct support model moving forward, rather than ads. Thanks for listening. See you next time!

113: Too Much of a Good Thing: Bad Therapy

“I believe that there is one story in the world, and only one. . . . Humans are caught—in their lives, in their thoughts, in their hungers and ambitions, in their avarice and cruelty, and in their kindness and generosity too—in a net of good and evil. . . . There is no other story. A man, after he has brushed off the dust and chips of his life, will have left only the hard, clean questions: Was it good or was it evil? Have I done well—or ill?” Welcome back to another episode of Made You Think! In this episode, Nat, Neil and Adil dive into John Steinbeck's masterpiece, East of Eden. Following the lives of two families, the Trasks and the Hamiltons, this novel ultimately reflects on the timeless struggle between darkness and light within the human soul. We cover a wide range of topics including:  The timeless battle between good and evil Why having a fixed worldview can lead to hurt Parallels between East of Eden and the story of Cain and Abel A glimpse into what life was like at the start of the Great War How parents' actions impact their children's lives  And much more. Please enjoy, and make sure to follow Nat, Neil, and Adil on Twitter and share your thoughts on the episode. Links from the Episode: Mentioned in the Show:  East of Eden movie (1:02:47) East of Eden Netflix series (1:03:21) Three-Body Problem series (1:03:46) Shantaram (TV series) (1:07:21)  Harry Potter 20th Anniversary: Return to Hogwarts (1:10:41)  Books Mentioned:   East of Eden (Nat's Book Notes)  Flowers for Algernon (0:02) (Book Episode) Grapes of Wrath (0:59)  Infinite Jest (4:23) (Book Episode 1) (Book Episode 2) (Nat’s Book Notes)  The Three-Body Problem (6:32) (Book Episode) (Nat’s Book Notes) Atlas Shrugged (7:52) (Book Episode) (Nat’s Book Notes)  Shantaram (1:06:46)  Einstein’s Dreams (1:32:12)  The Moon is Down (1:33:20) Lying (1:47:43) The Fountainhead (1:57:59)  Bad Therapy (2:00:04)  People Mentioned:  John Steinbeck John Gray (1:29:34) Ayn Rand (1:58:30)  Show Topics: (0:00) Today, we're diving into John Steinbeck's East of Eden, a novel that stood as a pinnacle in Steinbeck's illustrious career. We kick off the episode by exploring Steinbeck's candidness as shown in his accompanying journal. (2:57) Nat, Neil, and Adil share their experience reading the book for the second time, each finding deeper connections to its major themes and characters this time around. (6:27) We draw parallels between East of Eden and The Three-Body Problem contrasting their narrative styles. While East of Eden is emotionally impactful with rich characters, The Three-Body Problem unfolds in a flatter, more plot-driven world. Check out our episode on The Three-Body Problem if you haven't already! (9:31) Discussing Steinbeck's immersive writing style, we explore how he vividly paints the environments and characters of the book, making us feel as though they are living within its pages. (13:43) We delve into the characters of the novel, particularly Cathy, and how she shaped the narrative. Cathy doesn't always see the good, and often fails to take reponsibility for the things that happen to her.  (16:04) The book follows two main families, the Trasks and the Hamiltons. There is a major parallel of "two sons" as Adam has two sons, Steinbeck has two sons, and Cain and Abel are two sons.  (21:06) It wasn't the plot that drew us into the book, but rather the characters, and how they demonstrate the lessons taught in the novel. One of those lessons is the power of choice, and how you must take responsibility for your choices.  (26:31) Listen in as we read an excerpt from Chapter 34 on the topic of good vs. evil, and how humans are caught in their lives, thoughts, ambitions. “Have I done well or ill?”  (34:07) Adam has two sons, Aron and Caleb. Though theoretically, could Caleb be Charles’ son? We talk about the similarities between Charles and Caleb, and Adam and Aron.  (37:38) Examining the allegory of Cain and Abel within the novel, we discuss how Steinbeck portrays the struggle between good and evil. Steinbeck presents a compelling argument for the power of choice, demonstrating that no matter how many times you choose evil, you always have the power to choose good. It's your reponsibility to make that choice. (41:08) Nat, Neil, and Adil reflect on pivotal moments in the story, such as Cathy's final act of redemption and Caleb's sacrificial gesture for his father. (49:51) Lee's character, and how relatable he is. It's often the ones that are selflessly giving of themselves that are living the richest lives.  (53:31) There are many little instances of heartbreak throughout the book. East of Eden shows the clear impact that parents have on their kids, demonstrating that their actions have consequnces. (55:47) We talk about Adam and Charles' father, Cyrus, his interesting character, and more about the parallels in the book between the families and generations.  (1:02:46) The movie based off of East of Eden that came out in the 1950s and our thoughts on the Three-Body Problem TV series. (1:06:38) Books that turn into shows or movies can be very hit or miss. Neil gives an example of a show based on a book that didn’t live up to his expectation.  (1:10:14) How much input does an author have over a movie or TV series based on their book? We talk about the Harry Potter movie series, and how the wardrobe, casting, and scenery evolved throughout the series.  (1:14:12) East of Eden serves not only as a compelling narrative, but also as a historical reflection of its time. From the impact of World War II to discussions on ice factories, Steinbeck weaves societal issues into the fabric of the story. (1:19:07) Because we polluted the land and water so much, milk pasteurization became very common. (1:22:18) Squatters rights, bankruptcy laws, and seeking asylum at the border. How does social media affect the visibility and knowledge on these topics? (1:25:37) When you have a very fixed view on what the world should look like, it opens the door for that to be shattered down the line. Steinbeck made the point that you really should be more realistic about how you see the world. (1:33:11) Steinbeck had a novel that flew under the radar around the time of WW2 where people had to distribute unauthorized copies throughout Europe. Plus, was Steinbeck an asset to the CIA during his time in Europe?  (1:36:32) It's possible that Cathy's character was based on Steinbeck's ex-wife, which adds more power and meaning behind the family dynamic in the story.  (1:39:54) Within the novel are moments of clarity, both sad and joyful. It reminds us that we all have those moments where it feels like we’re waking up from something.  (1:43:05) We read an excerpt about Steinbeck’s ex-wife who was the mother to his two boys. Was Cathy's character based on her, and could that be why we see so many parallels between the book and Steinbeck's life?  (1:50:53) Nat, Neil, and Adil read off some of their favorite lines from the book! Do you have any favorite Steinbeck lines? Send them to us! (1:59:58) That wraps up this episode! Next on the Made You Think Podcast, we'll be reading  Bad Therapy by Abigail Shrier. Also, make sure to check out our new instagram page- @madeyouthinkpodcast! Give us a follow to stay up-to-date with what's to come on the show. If you enjoyed this episode, let us know by leaving a review on iTunes and tell a friend. As always, let us know if you have any book recommendations! You can say hi to us on Twitter @TheRealNeilS, @adilmajid, @nateliason and share your thoughts on this episode. You can now support Made You Think using the Value-for-Value feature of Podcasting 2.0. This means you can directly tip the co-hosts in BTC with minimal transaction fees. To get started, simply download a podcast app (like Fountain or Breez) that supports Value-for-Value and send some BTC to your in-app wallet. You can then use that to support shows who have opted-in, including Made You Think! We’ll be going with this direct support model moving forward, rather than ads. Thanks for listening. See you next time!

112: Thou Mayest: East of Eden by John Steinbeck

"All the facts of science aren't enough to understand the world's meaning. For this, you must step outside the world." Welcome back to another episode of Made You Think! In this episode, we're adventuring into the world of Logicomix, a graphic novel that takes us on a journey through the intricate life of mathematician Bertrand Russell. From the quest for precision that borders on madness to the historical events Russell was embroiled in, we'll explore the complexities of logic, philosophy, and mathematics. We cover a wide range of topics including:  Why seeking precision in understanding the world can drive one mad Bertrand Russell's historical involvements and achievements The rapid progress of aviation and technology How mathematics, logic, and philosophy remain connected Discovering the lives and contributions of various mathematicians  And much more. Please enjoy, and make sure to follow Nat, Neil, and Adil on Twitter and share your thoughts on the episode. Links from the Episode: Mentioned in the Show:  Prolific (1:06) Agrippan Trilemma (12:33) Münchhausen Trilemma (13:04)  Kate Middleton photo (30:48) House of Lords (32:06) The Flaw in Gödel’s proof (57:59) Arnold (1:03:50)  Political ETFs (1:13:49)  Books Mentioned:   Logicomix  East of Eden (0:03) (Nat's Book Notes) Of Mice and Men (0:21) The Grapes of Wrath (0:22) Watchmen (6:10) V for Vendetta (6:11)  In Praise of Idleness (7:12) (Book Episode) (Nat's Book Notes)  Gödel, Escher, Bach (12:01) (Book Episode) (Nat’s Book Notes)  The First World War (36:16)  The Second World War (36:16)  Banana King (1:00:45)  Chip War (1:01:01)  The Prize (1:01:23)  Bad Therapy (1:02:46) Kon-Tiki (1:08:17)  Endurance (1:09:40)  People Mentioned:  Apostolos Doxiadis  Christos Papadimitriou John Steinbeck (0:01) Bertrand Russell (6:51) Kurt Gödel (14:46) Ludwig Wittgenstein (20:49) Jordan Peterson (53:03)  Show Topics: (0:00) We kick off the episode by sharing John Steinbeck's journal writing process for East of Eden, his collaborative relationship with his publisher, and how he landed on the title.  (5:25) Though we are not talking about East of Eden today (but...stay tuned for that episode up next!), we're covering Logicomix, a graphic novel by Apostolos Doxiadis and Christos Papadimitriou. (8:16) We give an overview of the book and how it shares different intricacies and stories from Bertrand Russell's life. From his parents being in a throuple to schizophrenia running in his family, we try to decipher which parts were real vs. fabricated. (10:36) Why you shouldn't necessarily look for precision and formal rules about how the world works. We tie this idea into Taoism which we’ve seen commonly in a few of our other recent reads. In short, no system can fully explain itself. You need to step outside of it. (13:42) Is it possible to build a perfect map of everything that mathematics entails? We talk about the connection between logic, philosophy, and mathematics.  (20:25) There were several mathematicians in the book. How many of them are you familiar with? (23:36) Russell's involvement in a variety of historical events from the Cuban Missile Crisis to JFK's assassination, as he was not convinced that Oswald was guilty of the crime.  (28:34) If you've been up-to-date with the news lately, you may be just as interested in the Kate Middleton conspiracies as we are. Tangent time! (31:38) Russell was sat in the House of Lords, a chamber of UK Parliament which is generally not up for election. Plus, we brainstorm some ideas of who would be considered Bertrand Russell’s equivalent in the US. (36:48) We dive in to some different historical events and wars. The Ottoman Empire, World War 1 and 2, the Persian Gulf War, and how warfare and aircraft carriers changed during these ages.  (41:26) Aviation and its rapid improvements in technology in such a short span of time. (45:07) "Shouldn't we get back to the book?" Nat, Neil, and Adil discuss some of the main concepts from the book, including the pursuit of truth in the world of mathematics. You're never going to fully understand reality, but for some, that's a hard truth that they don't want to accept. (49:44) What does it mean to know, and how can you be justified in knowing something? Remember, a belief can be true while at the same time not satisfying the conditions of logic.  (56:05) Unlike the other mathematicians discussed in the book, Gödel constructed a proof to his theorem that hasn’t yet been disproven. Regardless of whether their desires for absolute truth was achieved or not, a lot of the findings are fundamentally useful in many other ways. (1:00:34) We talk about some of the books that we have coming up on the podcast, and throw around some ideas. Which book would you like to see us do an episode on?  Let us know here! (1:05:04) Is it true that the more you think about how you’re feeling, the worse you feel?  (1:10:07) Nat, Neil, and Adil share some more of their upcoming reads they're excited about, and different war books, including Martin Gilbert's books on WW1 and WW2. (1:13:24) Political ETFs that you can buy into. $NANC and $KRUZ, anyone? (1:17:22) That concludes this episode! Next up on Made You Think, we have the long awaited episode covering  East of Eden by John Steinbeck. Make sure to grab a copy of the book and read along with us before the next episode. Check out our new website to stay updated on what's to come. If you enjoyed this episode, let us know by leaving a review on iTunes and tell a friend. As always, let us know if you have any book recommendations! You can say hi to us on Twitter @TheRealNeilS, @adilmajid, @nateliason and share your thoughts on this episode. You can now support Made You Think using the Value-for-Value feature of Podcasting 2.0. This means you can directly tip the co-hosts in BTC with minimal transaction fees. To get started, simply download a podcast app (like Fountain or Breez) that supports Value-for-Value and send some BTC to your in-app wallet. You can then use that to support shows who have opted-in, including Made You Think! We’ll be going with this direct support model moving forward, rather than ads. Thanks for listening. See you next time!

111: Logicomix: An Epic Search for Truth

"Oozification is the process of recursively replacing systems based on numerous larger building blocks, governed by many rules, with ones based on fewer, smaller building blocks, governed by fewer rules, thereby increasing the number of evolutionary possibilities and lowering the number of evolutionary certainties." Welcome back to another episode of Made You Think! In this episode, we're discussing Fear of Oozification, an article by Venkatesh Rao. Get ready to explore the concept of ooziness in technology, learn the signs of oozification, and uncover why the ooze should (or should not) be feared. We cover a wide range of topics including:  How oozification applies in technology, nature, and more The contrast between progressification and oozification Challenges in preserving our knowledge over time Humans' natural fear of unpredictability and uncertainty Why authority and trust may be victims of oozification  And much more. Please enjoy, and make sure to follow Nat, Neil, and Adil on Twitter and share your thoughts on the episode. Links from the Episode: Mentioned in the Show:  Fear of Oozification Chrony Beliefs (0:32) (Book Episode) Oozy Intelligence in Slow Time (7:32) Sopranos Autopsy blog (30:44) StumbleUpon (31:27) The Honey Diet (35:57) Vesuvius Challenge (45:24) Phorevr (49:05) The Gervais Principle (51:48)  The Premium Mediocre Life of Maya Millennial (51:51)  Books Mentioned:   The Three-Body Problem (1:42) (Book Episode) (Nat’s Book Notes)  Permutation City (1:44) (Book Episode)  Flowers for Algernon (1:48) (Book Episode)  East of Eden (1:52)  Logicomix (2:01)  Seeing Like A State (23:30) (Book Episode) (Nat’s Book Notes)  The Anthology of Balaji (38:22)  Flatland (58:14) Watchmen (58:30) V for Vendetta (58:55)  People Mentioned:  Venkatesh Rao @anabology (32:06)  Show Topics: (0:00) Welcome back to Made You Think! We kick off this episode by sharing our reading progress for the upcoming books on the podcast as well as anything else we’re reading (or re-reading) outside of it. (5:32) Nat notes his experience with re-reading The Three-Body Problem series, the different pacing of each of the books, and other minor details that stuck out while going through it a second time. (6:43) Today, we're covering Fear of Oozification, an article by Venkatesh Rao. Nat, Neil, and Adil dive into the author's definition of oozification, and more specifically, how it applies within certain technologies such as the computer and phone. (10:52) What makes something more or less oozy? We think of the ooziness of nature where we frequently envision stable environments such as a forest or meadow. However, when a major change or catastrophe takes place, the landscape has to evolve and its trajectory changes. (14:36) Progressification vs oozification: In contrast to oozing, you can make steady and predictable progress within technology, for example. (16:50) We share our main takeaways from the article, debate what the author's view on oozification is, and how the author got his argument across.  (23:18) How oozification will happen regardless of the natural linear progression that we're on in the world of technology. As we progress and create new technologies, each new piece of tech will ooze in its own way. (26:27) Naturally, we fear the unpredictability of the future. What is it about oozification that we are more fearful of than just the unpredictability of the future? Plus, the new era of the internet vs. how things used to be in the world of blogging and social media. (31:43) Decentering and simplifying. We talk a bit about an individual health blog written in just plain text. Check it out here if you're curious! (37:39) Trust and authority, and how that links in with oozification. Nowadays, it's nearly easier to verify truth and accuracy in individuals rather than in large accredited institutions. (41:06) When something is oozed so far away from the fundamental state that we won’t know how to recreate the original anymore. Plus, what really is the best way to transmit human knowledge? (46:07) How memories have traditionally been stored through photographs, both digital and physical, and what the future of storing our memories and artifacts may eventually look like. (51:37) We chat a bit about some of Rao's other articles, discuss the contrast in the way that technology and government oozifies, and provide our final thoughts of the article. (55:46) In true Made You Think fashion, we ask ChatGPT for its take on the article! (57:45) That wraps up this episode! Next up, we'll be reading Logicomix followed by  East of Eden. Make sure to grab a copy of those books and read along with us. Head on over to our new website to see what's next, listen to previous episodes, and send any book suggestions our way! If you enjoyed this episode, let us know by leaving a review on iTunes and tell a friend. As always, let us know if you have any book recommendations! You can say hi to us on Twitter @TheRealNeilS, @adilmajid, @nateliason and share your thoughts on this episode. You can now support Made You Think using the Value-for-Value feature of Podcasting 2.0. This means you can directly tip the co-hosts in BTC with minimal transaction fees. To get started, simply download a podcast app (like Fountain or Breez) that supports Value-for-Value and send some BTC to your in-app wallet. You can then use that to support shows who have opted-in, including Made You Think! We’ll be going with this direct support model moving forward, rather than ads. Thanks for listening. See you next time!

110: Fear of Oozification

“I don’t know what’s worse: to not know what you are and be happy, or to become what you’ve always wanted to be, and feel alone.” Welcome back to another episode of Made You Think! Today, we're delving into Flowers for Algernon by Daniel Keyes. Join us as we take you through the journey of an intellectually disabled man who undergoes a procedure with the hopes of increasing his mental abilities. We'll unpack several themes that resonate deeply with the human experience, and seek to get our questions answered on what it truly means to be intelligent. We cover a wide range of topics including:  The relationship between intelligence and loneliness Whether the experiment actually made Charlie worse off Influence of social norms and media on individual beliefs and behaviors The existence (or lack of) internal dialogues How handicapped people are often viewed and treated  And much more. Please enjoy, and make sure to follow Nat, Neil, and Adil on Twitter and share your thoughts on the episode. Links from the Episode: Mentioned in the Show:  Apple Vision Pro (0:01) Rabbit (0:56) Playdate (2:41) Slack (3:54) Lambda Technologies (4:16) Discord (5:17) Flowers for Algernon Wiki (14:41)  Internal dialogues (42:01)  Reddit thread on Internal Dialogues (43:45)  Texas Tower shooting of 1966 (53:49) The Crowded Room (1:14:04)   Books Mentioned:   Flowers for Algernon  Infinite Jest (Book Episode 1) (Book Episode 2) (Nat’s Book Notes)  Enders Game (30:45)  The Three-Body Problem (30:46) (Book Episode) (Nat's Book Notes)  Permutation City (31:36) (Book Episode)  Straw Dogs (48:02) (Book Episode)  The Minds of Billy Milligan (1:13:42)  East of Eden (1:18:12) (Nat's Book Notes)  Logicomix (1:21:02)  People Mentioned:  Daniel Keyes Sam Altman (5:53) Sam Harris (53:24) David Foster Wallace (58:49) Michael Chang (1:15:02) John Steinbeck (1:17:15)  Show Topics: (0:00) We open the show by talking about new hardware innovations on the horizon from Apple’s Vision Pro to the pocket-sized Rabbit.  (3:23) As it's become increasingly easier to make software, what will this mean for SaaS companies and the future of software? (6:18) Today we’re talking about Flowers for Algernon by Daniel Keyes. The book takes us on the journey of a severely handicapped man who enters into an experiment in order to increase his intelligence. There will be spoilers so if you're planning on reading the book, we suggest you do that before listening to this episode! (12:28) Through Charlie's progression and regression, we get a glimpse into his levels of intelligence, awareness, and loneliness. He finds himself lonelier the more intelligent he becomes because as he gains more awareness, he learns that some people aren't truly his friends. (13:21) There seems to be a human desire to improve no matter what. Nat, Neil, and Adil debate whether Charlie was better or worse off in the end than he was at the start of his journey. (18:35) We discuss some of the other characters in the story and what their relationship with Charlie is like. Notably, Alice is one of the only people who saw him as a person throughout his whole life, even before he gained his intelligence.  (22:00) Charlie's family life and how the author wrote each of their closures with Charlie, or lack thereof.  (25:12) Despite Alice being a very positive figure in Charlie’s life, you could make the argument that he didn't treat her very well. Regardless, Alice kept her hope and optimism in every situation. (28:18) Though the book is classified as science fiction, it also poses instances of moral philosophy. Showcased by the author were examples of how people with mental or physical disabilities are treated by others, both obviously and subtly.  (32:52) One of the symbols in the story was a window that Charlie would watch the world through. It was a way for him to interpret his disconnection from society. Throughout the story, Charlie makes progress once he acknowledges himself and his past rather than running and hiding from it.  (36:54) The progression of Charlie's intelligence vs. his emotional intelligence and how they changed at different rates. Plus, we talk about the role of the researchers and how he treated them. (40:02) Nat, Neil, and Adil talk about their interpretation of one of the earlier scenes in the book. In the background was some type of educational tape played for Charlie, but it could have also been symbolized to be his internal monologue. (41:40) Does everyone have an internal dialogue? We dig into a tangent of internal dialogue and why it may be that not everyone has one. (50:13) We break down the different versions of Charlie throughout his life and how his character changed throughout the story. (53:20) Recalling the Texas shooter from the 1960's who was found to have a brain tumor. This brings up many moral dilemmas as to whether someone like him should be allowed to walk after having the brain tumor removed. (56:02) Similarly, what is the tipping point for something small to snowball into a very dangerous idea? We continue with a discussion on the role of social norms and social media. You can live very close proximally to someone but be engaged in completely different social worlds. It's all about who you choose to follow and what types of content you engage with. (1:03:03) Where should the line be drawn in giving punishments to someone who has some type of illness in their brain, such as a brain tumor or lead poisoning? Let us know what you think! (1:09:13) Adil shares his experience with re-reading the book as well as ChatGPT's take on Charlie's sessions with his psychiatrist. (1:13:36) We talk about the author’s writing career, including one of the other pieces that he has written. In fact, Apple TV came out with a mini-series based on one of his books!  (1:18:46) That wraps up this episode! We've got an exciting lineup for our next few episodes, beginning with Venkatesh Rao's essay, Fear of Oozification. Down the line, we'll also be covering  Logicomix and re-reading  East of Eden. Stay tuned and read along with us. You will not want to miss these! If you enjoyed this episode, let us know by leaving a review on iTunes and tell a friend. As always, let us know if you have any book recommendations! You can say hi to us on Twitter @TheRealNeilS, @adilmajid, @nateliason and share your thoughts on this episode. You can now support Made You Think using the Value-for-Value feature of Podcasting 2.0. This means you can directly tip the co-hosts in BTC with minimal transaction fees. To get started, simply download a podcast app (like Fountain or Breez) that supports Value-for-Value and send some BTC to your in-app wallet. You can then use that to support shows who have opted-in, including Made You Think! We’ll be going with this direct support model moving forward, rather than ads. Thanks for listening. See you next time!

85: Lessons from Laozi, the Tao Te Ching

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