In this episode, we delve into a compelling conversation with Klaas Ariaans, the Director of Consumer Clients at ABN AMRO. At the helm of the 3.500 employee office organization within the bank, Klaas oversees a division undergoing rapid evolution. He spearheaded two pivotal transformations: firstly, through Personal Banking, digital interactions have taken on a deeply personalized dimension. Secondly,  we've eliminated management by an astonishing 95%, ushering in a new era of self-organization. Join us as we distill lessons from six years of digital and cultural metamorphosis into a captivating 45-minute dialogue.