Welcome to the first episode of Members Matters, the new BABCP podcast made exclusively for our members.
This podcast will bring all the latest news and information from BABCP and we will be introducing our members to key figures in the organisation and you get to have your say in our Ask me Anything section.
In this episode:
- Meet our CEO – Rachel Handley chats with Tommy McIlravey, Chief Executive Officer of BABCP. Tommy shares his personal journey, what brought him to BABCP, his vision for the organisation, and how he plans to support members through better communication, inclusion, and strategic leadership.
- Spotlight on… Low Intensity SIG – Steph Curnow speaks to Sam Torney, Chair of the Low Intensity Special Interest Group (SIG), about the challenges and opportunities for wellbeing practitioners. Sam shares how the SIG supports members, upcoming CPD opportunities, and how to get involved.
- Ask Me Anything – Helen Macdonald answers a member's question about finding the right CBT supervisor and what to look for in terms of accreditation, qualifications, and fit.
Links and resources:
- Join a Special Interest Group (SIG): https://babcp.com/Membership/Special-Interest-Groups
- Find a CBT supervisor on the CBT Register: https://www.cbtregisteruk.com
- More information on our Journals Special Issues can be found here
- BCP Hoarding Special Issue can be found here
- Check out our other podcasts Let's Talk About CBT, Practice Matters, and Research Matters in our podcasts hub: https://babcp.com/Podcasts
Contact us: [email protected]
New episodes every month – subscribe now so you don't miss out.
Transcript:
Rachel: Hello and welcome to Members Matters, the podcast made exclusively for BABCP members. I'm Rachel Handley, also to be found hosting the BABCP Practice Matters podcast. And I'm here with my co-host, Steph Curnow and Helen Macdonald. Guys, do you want to say a little bit to introduce yourselves?
Steph: Yeah, sure. I'll start. Hi everyone, I am Steph Curnow. I am the BABCP Journals Managing Editor, and also the host of our Let's talk about CBT- Research Matters podcast.
Helen: And Helen. Hi, so I'm BABCP's Senior Clinical Advisor, and I host the Let's talk about CBT Podcast.
Rachel: So in this podcast, we're going to bring you the latest news and information for members. We're going to be packed full of information like meeting some of the key figures in the organization in our introducing section, and you'll get a chance to get involved too and ask me anything where Helen with her Senior Clinical Advisor hat on is going to take any questions you'd like to ask. You can find out more about that a little later on. You'll also hear from the low intensity special interest group in our spotlight on session. But first up, Steph Helen, how have things been in the world of BABCP?
Steph: Yeah, things have been really good from the journal's perspective. We have been super busy lately. We have four special issues on the go at the moment across CBT for addictions, a neurodiversity special issue, one for the low intensity workforce, which we'll hear a bit more about later, and also one on hoarding, which is very exciting.
Helen: I'm looking forward to those coming out. When are we going to see them?
Steph: So the closing date for the first one has just happened, so that should hopefully be published later this year or early next year.That's going to be the first one on CBT and addictions. So, yeah, really exciting.
Rachel: Helen, what's been going on in your world?
Helen: There's quite a few things as usual going on. We're about to publish an issue of CBT today where there's another ethics article coming out, so you can look forward to seeing another question from one of our members about number of sessions when you're working in CBT. I've been doing some work with the children and young people's special interest group on updating the Good Practice guide on working with children, young people and families, and we are just about to complete work on a good service and good practice guide as well. So there's a lot going on in terms of building up guidance and information for members. And apart from that, doing a lot of answering questions from members, which is another reason for having the Ask Me Anything section here.
Rachel: You're never lacking in work, are you, Helen?
Helen: I don't get bored.
Rachel: Fantastic. So shall we get into the podcast? First up is our introducing section where we'll be bringing you an in-depth conversation with some of the key people here at BABCP.
This episode I'm going to introduce to you our CEO Tommy McIlravey, here's our chat.
Across the Members Matters podcast episodes. We're hoping to introduce you to some of the key figures in the BABCP. I know that we have fellow members who've been part of the BABCP for so long they know the organization, like they know their own family, and for many, it really does feel like a family and will lead aside any stereotypical therapist jokes about family dysfunction for now, but for many of you, the organization is something you signed up for, maybe for a very specific purpose like accreditation and as the organization has grown so much over the years, the heart of who, what, and how BABCP business has done can seem very remote or vague to you. So today we'd like to introduce Tommy McIlravey, chief Executive Officer of the BABCP since mid 2023 I believe, Tommy.
Tommy: Yeah, that's about right. I started the week of the conference in 2023 and worked part-time for the first few weeks cause I was finishing off some other stuff. And then full-time from September 23.
Rachel: Wow. So conference is either a baptism of fire or a total immersion in the joy of BABCP depending on how you see it. But welcome and thank you so much for joining us.
Tommy: Oh no. It's great to be here.
Rachel: So before we get into the ins and outs of what it means to be CEO of the BABCP, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? So, what would your friends and family tell us about what's important to you? What gives you joy, gets you out of the bed in the morning? Or, or if someone wanted to make conversation with you at the at the conference, what would be a good opening topic?
Tommy: I think I probably like to think of myself as being quite interested in lots of stuff. So there's not, there's probably not one go-to, I, I'm always interested in meeting other people. I think I'm probably quite extrovert, and so I, I do my best thinking while I'm speaking to other people as well. So there's things that I love Luton Football club, and we are both wearing orange today. Bizarrely,
Rachel: What colour could I have worn that would've been the enemy, the chief opposition.
Tommy: Oh yeah. So yellow for Watford would be particularly problematic, although I have a lovely yellow jumper that I'm very fond of, so I'm not that precious about it.
Rachel: Okay. You've told us a little bit about yourself. What brought you to the role of Chief Executive Officer at the BABCP?
Tommy: Well, firstly, I've been a charity CEO now for, I think it's 17 years.
Rachel: Oh, wow.
Tommy: Most of that time was in CEO roles for what I'd call frontline mental health charities. So those working much more directly with people using services, and that started off in a wonderful charity called Sahir House in Liverpool which does work around HIV and sexual health across Merseyside and Cheshire.
Rachel: It sounds like you had an early interest then in both mental health and diversity. Why the interest in mental health?
Tommy: Well, actually for much longer than that, so from the mid nineties or late nineties, I volunteered at a mental health drop-in for LGBTQ plus people. And I suppose that interest in mental health I think was continued through working in sexual health because most people living with HIV. Experienced some kind of mental health. So a lot of the work we did there was mental health focused, and so that led me on to working for Mind, and I ran Lancashire Mind for about five or six years. It is one of the larger local Minds within the Federation and Lancs is a really interesting place to work because it's a bit like a microcosm of England. You have the seaside, you have forests, you have built up areas, you have a lot of farmland. You have places that are kind of very wealthy and been the same for hundreds of years. You have some of the most ethically diverse towns in the UK so you, you kind of get almost a little bit of everything you get in England in one big county. And so some of the mental health challenges there were interesting, but also really different from one side of it to the other.
Rachel: So you had that sort of Mini Britain experience again, you, something about the diversity of how what you're seeing in terms of people's backgrounds and experience coming to mental health and how that made a difference to what they're coming with as well.
Tommy: Absolutely. And things like particularly I suppose, working in Blackburn around ethnicity and the lack of visible clinicians who were able to help people who looked like the people who lived across a lot of Blackburn Darwin. So there's very large numbers of people with South Asian heritage. And very few NHS therapists who weren't white. And that was a, that was a real challenge. And actually when I went to Lancaster Mind, the staff team of around 40 were all white as well. By the time I left, I think we were up to about, it was seven or eight non-white staff, and they were both representative of the communities, some of the communities that we served. Just some other backgrounds as well. So a really interesting mix of backgrounds.
Rachel: And was that a deliberate strategy to break down some of those barriers and make the organization more representative?
Tommy: Well, there was certainly something, there was some soul searching about how have we ended up in a place where I everybody looks the same and sounds the same actually cause there's lots of sort of white middle class people who were there and looking at things like person specs for jobs and what we asked for them. And we did ask for things like psychology degrees for lots of people and for some posts where maybe we didn't need them. Actually thinking about how, if, if that's a barrier, what does that say about psychology degrees and that that's a challenge that universities have probably faced and have maybe tackled because we can see a much more diverse workforce coming through in psychological professions. But you do wonder, what was it before?
That was the barrier as well. Yeah, absolutely. And was that about role models or was that about indirect discrimination or what was it about?
Rachel: And it's so fabulous, isn't it? Seeing these really strong role models now coming through and having the opportunity to take up roles in these organizations, but not a job that's done, I don't suppose.
Tommy: Yeah, and I, I, I guess the other bit about equity, diversity, and inclusion is about everybody's responsibility within that. I guess from my own experience of being a gay man and when I worked for a university 30 years ago when they started to look at issues around that, you felt that you had to bear some of the responsibility for helping them understand how to deal with sexuality in the workplace. And actually you need, you need everybody else to do the heavy lifting. So I was always aware that if we were going to be an anti-racist organization, it's not about getting all the, all the people who aren't white and putting them in a room and saying like, what do we need to do? Yeah. That's, that communication is an important part of it, but it's not, you can't leave it to the people who are. In some way, different or other, or whatever else they've lived with in their life, to then be the solution to that problem.
Rachel: So getting a picture of your leadership emerging through Lancaster Mind and where did you go next? What brought you into the B-A-B-C-P?
Tommy: I was doing some work for National Mind after that. I start, I started to do some freelance work and was interested in, in seeing if I could just work on my own for a bit, and I, I very quickly realized it wasn't really for me. I did want to get back into the driving seat, but when the opportunity with BABCP came up, I was just very interested cause of how different it looked to some of the other opportunities that were coming up at that point in time. And I knew nothing really about BABCP at the point when that landed in my inbox. So it was from a position of blissful ignorance really, that I came to it.
Rachel: And I think sometimes that's a, that's a good thing without any sort of prior assumptions or opinions in a way that might've narrowed down your vision.
Tommy: Absolutely, and I was very open about how little I knew when I came into post and I said, you know, I'm here because I have skills in governance. I have skills in running charities. I have skills in culture and strategy and those kind of things, but not in evidence-based psychotherapy at all. And that then was a good framing for the conversations that I then had with so many people because I had one-to-ones with every member of staff, whatever their role with all of the board members, with committee chairs, and then with some wide stakeholders as well. And that really gave me a flavour of where the association had come from and where it had got to. And then that helped inform those conversations about where we're going next as well.
Rachel: And you said there was something intriguing, even though you didn't know a lot about it, there was something intriguing that seemed different. What was that difference? If you can put a finger on it,
Tommy: It wasn't showy. Yeah. Like I said, the application pack and all of the stuff, sometimes people spend a lot of money on the hard sell of who they are, and it was more just actually, this is what we do. This is why we do it. This is what we need. It was really to the point and written in a way that I could understand and relate to.
Rachel: It sounds like there was something about that that was values consistent for you by an organization that sort of wanted to do what it said on the tin and wasn't pretending to be something it wasn't.
Tommy: Yeah, I think that's right.
Rachel: And it also sounded like you're someone who likes to influence to be in an organization, to be leading and involved in something bigger. Is that right? Is that fair to say?
Tommy: I think if you want to make change, then you need to bring other people with you. And I could see in BABCP, a lot of people who individually probably make absolutely revolutionary changes to individual people's lives. And so how can you harness all of that intelligence and skill at doing something a bit wider? The whole of psychotherapy is about making profound change for one person at a time, and I'm interested in how people who can make that change one person at a time can bring that learning to making societal change. That's not too grandiose. Sorry.
Rachel: Well, I'm hearing already your passion and your vision coming through. Even these, these early discussions we're having around, you know, you've got these big values around diversity and people not feeling othered in mental health services and inclusion and also passionate about making a big change. And those sound like even if they are grandiose, really good impulses to have, and I guess they're not, because these are things we all want to be engaged in, aren't they?
So just stepping back a little bit, your CEO and I, for those of us therapists who possibly only encountered the term CEO in the likes of news of the post office or water company scandals or on glamorous Netflix shows, what, what actually is a CEO and, and more specifically, what's the purpose of the role in an organization like BABCP?
Tommy: I think it's important to note that BABCP is a registered charity. So its status is different and protected in law. So it's different from being a company for profit or from being a public body, although it is a company as well. For reasons that lots of charities are companies too, for the protection of trustees and in any charity, the legal person is the board. Same in a company. Really, if you want to sue a charity, you're essentially suing the board of that charity and the board is drawn from BABCP members, and until recently, actually was drawn entirely from members through election. Over the last couple of years, we've put in some lay directors who bring different skills and actually that diversity of thought to the board, and that's how stuff runs. But in order for a group of people who will give their time and give their wisdom in order for their vision to be turned into reality. They need people there to do it. So the CEO's ultimate responsibility is, well ultimately in a charity is to the public, but via that board. And I don't know if people always get that dynamic.
Rachel: So I mean, wonderful that people are willing to do that and give their time and energies to those roles. But it sounds really like your role is really importantly in support of that and actualizing that vision, making those things happen.
Tommy: Yeah.
Rachel: Can you ground us in that a little bit? So what does a typical day or week look like? What, what are you typically doing with your life from nine to five and beyond, and who might you be meeting with? What decisions might you be making
Tommy: So often the CEOs cycle is, is a lot longer than a day. So I'm often thinking about what needs to happen this year or what needs to happen this quarter. So I probably would have a typical month rather than a typical day. I suppose the top level thing is, is the governance. So making sure that that the board's issues are implemented, but in line with some kind of strategy and in line with the various bits of law. So Charity law, company law. Qualities, law, information, governance, health and safety and so on. So there's making sure stuff happens and happens in a way that's proper.
The point of having a strategy is not just that you can do something different from what you're currently doing or make some change in the world, but also you can demonstrate that you're making that change. So a big thing that I've done as CEO is that consultation with members. Putting together a new strategy with the board, and now we're just at the stage of, well, how will we know we've done it? And writing some performance measures. That's something we're quite excited about so that members can see the direction of travel of the association and they can see what we are doing with their money. Importantly. Yeah, and have some demonstrable improvements in some of the things that we're doing with that and some new things that we'll be doing for members that we haven't done before.
And I guess that's the exciting bit of the job. There's a role around communications, so at a strategic level. Making sure that we're talking to the right people, we're sending the right messages, that we are, have a diverse range of opinions within the association, but that we find something that we all agree on. I think that's really important with the communication goes the influencing. So speaking to people who can change what's going on in the health systems in England, Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. That's one of the things you do as you mature into a role. So I guess in my first year there's been more about consultation and writing the strategy, but then as you get to the stage of actually everybody agreeing on what it is that you're going to do, then you can have more influence on what happens in the rest of the world.
And then there's just some other bits and bobs that CEOs do. So I am managing the senior team also trying to lead and motivate the wider team, which has been a real challenge with, this is the first role I've ever done that's entirely remote. I've done a, did the working from home during Covid, but you know, we got people back together in rooms as soon as we could.
And other than that, I think just being another person that members can tell how they see things, that there are other channels for them to communicate with us through the membership team, through the complaints team, through the accreditation team or whatever. But going out to conferences and events and meeting members, they're some of the best quality conversations I have cause often they have solutions that are really simple and really powerful, but for some reason we wouldn't have thought of on our own.
Rachel: Fantastic. So it sounds like there's something really important about consultation and setting vision. Who do you interact with? You've talked about your role in relation to the board. How do you interact with other team members, other senior team leaders?
Tommy: So I meet with my senior team once a week, which is really the driving force of the leadership within the organization. And then with the, the next level of leadership down once a quarter. We do have full staff team meetings once a month and we do now have twice a year we'll meet as a staff team in person, which actually is incredibly valuable cause you get people from across different teams who might not have interacted with each other, having conversations for the first time. And that ultimately has a real benefit for members because they will work out ways of shortcutting some of the processes and challenging why we do the things the way that we do.
Rachel: I'm hearing a lot, and we will speak more about your positive vision for the organization, but I'm also interested in since joining the BABCP what the most significant challenges or issues the organization or you have faced or is facing currently that you've had to engage with as CEO?
Tommy: I think getting the workforce and capacity right is difficult. I think we've quite rightly taken a cautious approach. Spending members money on putting, putting more people onto the staff team. But we've seen some areas behind their targets. So processing memberships, processing accreditation, processing complaints particularly was really under-resourced cause it's all very well having that great vision, isn't it, Rachel? But like, if you're not getting the basics right. You know, you're not doing the things that nobody are paying you for, then there's a real problem. So I think there is some housekeeping stuff has been some of the most challenging because it's about not rushing in and just throwing money at problems, but understanding, well, what is it actually that we need other things that are wider and more about the world.
I mean, a big challenge for the association is that understanding the public understanding of CBT, of other evidence-based mental health therapies. I'm doing a lot of work at the moment, both within the BABCP and with other associations around how do we better protect the public from things like rogue therapists who don't have any qualifications or people who may have some qualifications, but then do a weekend course in CBT and call themselves CBT therapists and stuff.
Rachel: And got an online certificate.
Tommy: Yeah, quite. And it's difficult because like anything else with the public, there's so much information, there's so much messaging. People only really find out about stuff like CBT when they need it. And even then, they may not know where to go for good quality information.
Rachel: And so I guess that the flip side of that is what's exciting you about the future? And you've talked about some of the challenges. I hear inherent in that lots of things you really want to do, you want the organization to do what's exciting, what's going on that you think is really going to make a difference?
Tommy: There's loads of potential to improve the way that we communicate with members and members communicate with each other. And one of the things that will ultimately enable us to do is to have an online forum for members where they can communicate with the whole membership, with their branch, with their specialist interest groups, whether there'll be resources on there that they can go and look up, that'd be great when that's here.
The other one at the minute that I'm very excited about is the leadership program. So we are looking to find that next generation of leaders within CBT and wellbeing practitioners and do some development with them. So that they can go on to help us through being on committees and on board but also help CBT by taking up leadership roles in the NHS or in academia or in private practice, or just getting them to the next stage of their career and the next stage of influencing the, the wider world.
Rachel: So at risk of sounding like a bad job interview, Tommy, what's your big vision in five years, 10 years? How would you like the organization to be different? From how it is now or more over what it is now.
Tommy: I think more transparency so people can see where each pound of their membership fee goes. What gets delivered for it, what of that is business as usual, and what of that is re reinvestment? What are the new things that, through those conversations with members that we're going to try? I don't believe in innovation just for its own sake, but I think if there are things that that members want, let's bring that. Part of the vision is also about not losing bits along the way as well. You know, I think we do very well at bringing together a broad coalition of people from different parts of that whole evidence-based psychotherapy spectrum. So I think it's important to, to keep those together. And it's important to have other voices have prominence. So making sure that, not just in terms of EDI, but the EDI bit is important that our board and our leadership reflects that wider demographics but also reflects the fact that we work across five nations of the UK and the Republic of Ireland, and that we have that equal voice for people on different professional routes as well.
So, you know, what is it that wellbeing practitioners want as opposed to CBT therapists and making sure that that's in there. And also that general comms bit, if you get better at the comms externally as well. So helping the public understanding. Making some real progress on that, whatever that looks like.
Rachel: So an inclusive organization that is transparent and communicates well and internally and externally sounded like big aspects of your vision.
Tommy: Definitely.
Rachel: And, and what, if any, message, Tommy, would you like to give the members of the organization from your role, from where you're sitting?
Tommy: Oh, well, I don't want to sound condescending or too grandiose or anything when I say this, but I really want to say just well done to all of those members of BABCP cause it's been a tough few years, we've been through a pandemic. We know there's a climate emergency that's not getting better. We know that there's increased intentions around the world. We've had a change of government, but there hasn't really been a change of austerity that people can see yet. So there's a lot of additional pressures on people's mental health, both as practicing clinicians, but also in the wider world. So there's, there's more demand for services, whether they're NHS or private services or wherever they are from. And I think just to keep going and to keep operating professionally as a psychotherapist is a big ask.
And I know people will take support from things like supervision and. And their own wellbeing practices and stuff, but that doesn't make it easy. So I've got such admiration for the membership, and I suppose I'd just like to express that. I think, I don't think it'd be any more complicated than that, to be honest.
Rachel: And finally, Tommy, what, what then now is your personal top tip for good mental health?
Tommy: I, I never know if these apply to other people, but I just love finding stuff out. I love meeting new people, going to new places, doing something I haven't done before, and I think that is harder probably as you get older as well. But it's so rewarding. Just take yourself out of your comfort zone every now and again.
And if someone invites you to go and do something and you're not sure if you can be bothered, give it a go cause think of all the things you've ever tried in your life that were new or different. There'd be some that were great. There'd be some that you could have taken left. There'd be the odd one that wasn't.
But on balance, you always get more. From doing different stuff and particularly speaking to people who are different from you.
Rachel: I'm sure folk really value getting to meet you today. Tommy, thank you so much for sharing a bit about you, about the role, the organization, and it's really heartening to me to know that there's someone in your role who is so passionate about those core values that we have in the BABCP around evidence-based practice around inclusion, around reaching the public, around supporting our members about transparency and about using our influence widely and disagreeing to coin a phrase from another podcast agreeably, um, in, in an emotionally intelligent way, hopefully to influence the world for the better. Thanks so much, Tommy.
Tommy: Thanks Rachel. Be great speaking with you.
Steph: Welcome to our Spotlight on Sessions. This is the part of the podcast where we aim to spotlight a branch or a special interest group, or a particular area of BABCP that we would like our members to know a bit more about. Today, I am delighted to be joined by Sam Torney, the chair of the Low Intensity SIG who is going to talk to us all about the SIG and what they do.So, hello Sam.
Sam: Hi Steph. Thanks for having me on the podcast.
Steph: Thank you so much for coming on. So would you like to introduce yourself to the listeners?
Sam: Yeah, so I'm from the West Midlands in England. I have been a PWP now for the last 10 years or so, and I also work as a team lead for the Shropshire, Telford and Wrekin Talking Therapy service. And then in my spare time, I am the chair of the Low Intensity special Interest Group for the BABCP. So we are really here to represent the interest and the voices of wellbeing practitioners across the BABCP, so that is PWP's- Psychological Wellbeing Practitioners, but also Children's and Young People Wellbeing Practitioners, the Educational Mental Health Wellbeing Practitioners. And then shortly we're hoping to be joined on official registration by the Mental Health Wellbeing Practitioners that I think that's coming up this summer. A big group of people were ever growing and the SIG is just here to support those people to listen to their point of views, make sure that what wellbeing practitioners need is being heard in the BABCP across the board.
Steph: So could you tell us a little bit about how the SIG works?
Sam: Yeah, so the SIGs all work in a similar sort of way, really. It's a committee of volunteers, which for us is obviously made up of wellbeing practitioners but can be anybody that's within the BABCP across the UK. So all of the SIGs have elected positions. You have an elected chair as well as a treasurer, a secretary, and a branch liaison that liaises with the other branches and the local branches within the BABCP and feeds back. SIGs have a yearly, a GM and as is coming up this summer as well. So we're governed quite officially from that perspective. And then we feed back into the other committees, to the branches and the BABCP in general. As a committee, we meet approximately six to eight weekly depending on the time of year and what's going on, and we discuss anything that's been brought to our attention. So we plan things like training, like open forums, we bring anything that the BABCP has asked us to look at to discuss and then feed that back in as well. We do all of that online and because obviously being across the country, it makes it very difficult for us all to meet in person that regularly.
Steph: Yeah, I can understand that.
Sam: Yeah, and then that's, we just have an open membership, so anybody that's a member of the BABCP can join as a regular member and they can attend our open forums, attend our journal club, get regular emails from us and updates that kind of thing as well.
Steph: Okay, so you don't actually have to be a low intensity practitioner to join?
Sam: No, absolutely not. We don't discriminate, we promise, and we have people that aren't low intensity practitioners join us at Journal Club. Occasionally we have people who are aspiring low intensity practitioners as well, which is really nice getting involved and come and talk to us so anybody can join.
Steph: And so are there any challenges that you face as a sig or are there any opportunities that you're able to pursue?
Sam: Yeah, I think particularly with being a low intensity sig, that the issues that we have is our workforce are very busy, they're very high volume workforce, and trying to engage with people when they have got those kind of responsibilities can be really difficult. So wellbeing practitioners. They tend to be employed in the public sector with huge demands on their time in services that struggle to provide time outside their clinical work to allow for development opportunities. And we know when you are working for the NHS when you're working for the public sector, that there's huge demands on clinical output and it can be really difficult for services to allow that time, that space for reflection, for development. Also traditionally wellbeing practitioners are lower paid than our CBT colleagues, which makes things like self-funding conferences, entering into research, things like that really inaccessible for people. So those are the things that we facing mostly as a challenge, trying to engage with workforce that has all of that going on and engage differently.
Equally, that can be a bit of an opportunity as well. So when I was first A PWP, now I had nothing to do with the BABCP, I didn't see what they had to offer me because we weren't a registered practitioner workforce. I didn't see that they were looking at us in any way. I think that's very different now. There are now over 4,000 people registered within the BABCP, on the wellbeing practitioner registration. So huge numbers compared to where we were previously, and that's growing all the time. Every time I ask for an update, there's another few hundred on there. We have strength in numbers, so we can start thinking about, well, actually, if this traditional way of engaging doesn't work for us, what does work? How can we move it forward? How can we discuss what research looks like for us as wellbeing practitioners? Not necessarily what has been done before. So I think there's more opportunity now than there ever has been. It's just finding a way of bringing people together and bringing all that together in a way that works.
Steph: So as you are the chair of the SIG, what is on your desk right now? What are the things that you are working on?
Sam: So I tend to find with the SIG that we have a lot of ambition, but again, the time and then you drive that forward up and mix it a little bit slow. But we're working really hard. So some of the big things that we've got on the desk right now, we have a little bit of a manifesto of what we want to work on.
So part of that is producing a program of CPD within the BABCP that is accessible to all wellbeing practitioner roles. Previously the focus has only been on PWPs, but we have all the wellbeing practitioner roles that we really want to include and develop with as well. Making sure we're not overlapping with other training offer, but giving people something that a works for their registration so they're ticking that box and something that's really worthwhile and valuable for them. We've got a plan that we want to run a full online day of CPD in November of this year. So we're currently putting that together, getting some speakers, getting people involved, and looking at how we can work that in a way that is accessible to everybody as well. So there'll be more information about that coming soon.
One of my projects that I really am interested in doing for people is looking at career development within these roles. So again, previously career development has been, you go on to be a CBT therapist or a clinical psychologist. There's nothing wrong with that. If that's your ambition and that's what you want to do, it's fantastic. But actually with finding, there're a career pathways within the wellbeing practitioners that people can develop into as well. So I'm trying to put together a series of blog posts from people in different careers where their pathways have gone where they are developing what's happening for them next. And I'd be really interested in hearing from anybody who'd like to be involved in that and just write us a little bit of a blog about what they're doing, what they've see their career being like in the future so people can see the different opportunities that are available to them. We are really, really keen on getting people more involved with research as well. Again, wellbeing practitioner research and low intensity CBT research has often been led from a high intensity perspective, and we want to try and make sure that that's led from within house more and along. So within the SIG we have a journal club, which runs normally the first Wednesday evening of the month at 7:00 PM. And we talk about articles, we look at research, we look at where we can develop, how we can use that in practice. What I would say about journal club is people I think sometimes feel a little bit intimidated about coming there if they don't feel they really understand research or know where we're coming from. We are very, very low key, so please don't ever be put off thinking, oh, I don't know enough. It's very relaxed environment. I don't know a lot about research either. We just calm, we explore it together, there's no stupid question. We ask what we can learn from it, and we take it forward. And then I also wanted to mention the special edition of the Cognitive Behavioural Therapist, which will be coming up soon. Yes. And I know you are very involved with that, Steph.
Steph: Yeah, I was like, yes, please. Yes, do mention this.
Sam: So I'm so excited about this. The idea is that there's going to be a full edition of low intensity research that's published altogether and all at once, so we can begin to again, drive that research forward. And you guys on that team have been really great in supporting wellbeing practitioners. If they do feel like, well, what can I write? I don't know how to do a piece of research. It's not necessarily just about that. You can write a case study, you can get involved in other ways. So it's a really exciting opportunity if that's something you'd like to look into to be involved.
Steph: Yeah, and just on that, I would really definitely recommend that people go check out the webinars as well that we did not so long ago with Eve Bampton Wilton, and some others who talk through how to do research from a low intensity perspective and how to write for papers, and that's really, really helpful resource as well if anyone's thinking of submitting to the journal. And do get in touch with us if people have ideas as well, we'd love to hear them.
Sam: And we do have people popping along to Journal Club to discuss that as well. So if anybody has any questions and they want to pop in there, we quite have Liz Kell or Richard Thwaites come along and, answer any questions that you've got as well.
Steph: Yeah, it sounds like the first rule of Journal Club is come to Journal Club.
Sam: Absolutely. Come and chill and bring a cup of tea. And if you don't know anything, that's fine. You can say that. It's not a problem. We all learn as we go.
Steph: That's such a good message. Thank you, Sam. Finally, before we wrap up, is there anything you'd like to say to anyone who might be thinking about joining the SIG? How can people get involved?
Sam: Absolutely. So there's lots of different ways to get involved. Again, I'm very aware of people's time in a workforce that often has young children and a lot of other things on their plates. You don't need to dedicate huge of time to this if you just want to be a little bit involved. So there actually an article coming out into the next CBT today, discussing ways for wellbeing practitioners to be involved. Whether you've got five minutes, whether you've got half an hour, whether you want to give a little bit more time, discusses all the different ways that you can be. So I'd say look out for that first of all. We have quarter open forums, which we are planning out for the next year, and I'll get those dates out soon. So we'll have our AGM coming up so you can just pop into that. Again, that's online. Bring up anything that you want to or just sit in the background and listen to kind of things that we're doing.
You can sign up for the SIG via the website and we send regular emails for invites, for forums as well as journal club out on there. And we also have a LinkedIn page. So again, anything that we're doing I'll put on there, so you'll be able to access it easily. And if you are wanting to be a little bit more involved and be on the committee, you can just pop us an email, [email protected] Let know and we can talk to you about how you get on the committee kind of things.
Steph: Brilliant. Well, thank you so much, Sam. As always, it's been super lovely to chat to you, and I really hope that this encourages people to come join the SIG or come check out who you are or go to Journal Club.
Sam: Yes, please. It'd be lovely to see some people there.
Steph: It was really lovely to hear from Sam, wasn't it, and all the work that the low intensity SIG are up to. So just a reminder to anyone who's interested in joining the SIG, please do go and check them out. Any of our members can join any of the SIGs. We'll link to the special interest group page from our website in the show notes. So please do go have a look for them if you are interested in joining any.
Rachel: So, as we said earlier, this podcast is all about you as members of the BABCP and this is your chance to get involved. We really want this podcast to be a two-way conversation about which we don't mean you shouting at your phones at home, but we really want a conversation. And to that end, Helen is here as our Senior Clinical Advisor to answer your questions, and you can ask her anything. No pressure, Helen.
Steph: So Helen, as I was in charge of the podcast mail bag, I have pulled out a first question from one of our members who have emailed in and they have asked, how can I find a supervisor and what credentials do they need to have?
Helen: Right. Thanks Steph. Well, that's quite a broad question, so let me talk a little bit around it first and I'll do my best to answer it. So firstly, the key principle for anybody looking for a supervisor is we need to find somebody who meets our supervision needs. I guess that's fairly obvious and if somebody's working in low intensity practice, my expectation is that they're working in a system of care where the supervision, including both clinical skills and case management, will be part of that system of care that they're working in.
So I'm going to make the assumption that we're talking about cognitive behavioural psychotherapists, high intensity practitioners, for example, and if somebody, I suppose also is in training, if they're on one of our accredited programs, the clinical supervisor must be accredited, and we will find that out by looking on the CBT Register, UK and Ireland. And even if you're not on an accredited program, if you're training in CBT, that would be the first priority from my perspective, is looking for somebody who's accredited as a practitioner. Still better if they're accredited as a supervisor. But at the moment, relatively few of our accredited members, even if they provide supervision, are also accredited as supervisors.
And if you are looking for specialist supervision, word of mouth, joining the special interest group and asking for recommendations can be a good way of finding the right supervisor. And if you are looking for someone and you don't find the right supervisor who's accredited in exceptional circumstances. It might be that you find somebody who's got an international qualification, for example, they're accredited by the European organization, the EABCT, or at least they have a postgraduate qualification and training in CBT, and they're practicing and being supervised themselves. So those are the credentials that they have to have. A lot of people find supervisors by word of mouth if it's not provided as part of their organization or employers setting, or as I say, through the SIG, through your regional BABCP branch, for example. And of course it can be online, it can be in a group setting. And perhaps for more experienced practitioners, arranging a peer supervision contract can be a way of finding the right supervision with the right person.
Rachel: And Helen, would you have anything to say about fit, who you get on with, how it feels in the room?
Helen: I think that's a really important part of making sure that the supervision meets your needs, and a good supervisor will be challenged by a good supervisor. That's for sure, and mine certainly challenges me at times, but having a really sound and trusting relationship with your supervisor is so important. We're going to make ourselves vulnerable in supervision. We're going to talk about things that aren't going well or show videos of our practice that we're perhaps not feeling like it's our finest hour. And being open to learn with somebody is going to be a vital part of that supervisory relationship.
Rachel: And I guess it's not always, in my experience of supervision, it's not always completely straightforward. Sometimes you hit bumps because of that important aspect of challenge or coming at things from slightly different perspectives, and that can be a really fruitful part of supervision, can't it? But equally, if it feels too challenging and it's not meeting your needs, I think it's also important to be able to say that that's not anyone's fault necessarily It's just not quite a fit.
Helen: Quite. Yeah, I agree with you, and I think being able to have that conversation and having a contract that's got a review built into it so that you can have that conversation and it's expected that you will do that. And also making sure that your supervisor also has supervisory supervision is another important part of that process.
Just making sure that we're all being supported in doing what we're doing and that we can have those transparent and if necessary, difficult conversations as part of that.
Rachel: Helen, thank you so much for answering that member question. I'm sure that'd be really useful for lots of people. And thank you for listening to Members Matters from the BABCP.
Just a reminder of our other podcasts. Helen, do you want to tell us what's coming up on the flagship Let's talk about CBT podcast.
Helen: Well, we just released a State of Mind Sport podcast where we talk to people from the charity, State of Mind Sport about mental health and reaching. perhaps particularly men who wouldn't normally talk about their mental health and mental fitness sessions as a way of improving wellbeing in that part of our population. And coming up soon, we'll have podcasts about menopause with both lived experience and expertise in CBT, and we've also got a podcast coming up where I talk to someone from a black Afro-Caribbean background about his journey, including CBT on the pathway to improve mental health.
Rachel: Fantastic. And those podcasts are really brilliant. Both I find as a practitioner, but also to recommend to your clients and family members and people you know who are just interested. What's coming up in the Journals podcast, Steph.
Steph: Yeah, so I've recently put out a podcast with Dr. Daniel Wilson, who is actually based in Queensland talking about CBT-E for eating disorders, which is really interesting. And I've just recorded a session with Katherine Wakelin about working with PTSD and moral injury and bringing in religious beliefs and how people can work with that. And I'm also going to be speaking to Kerry Young later this week as well, talking about working with PTSD, with rape survivors as well. So I would imagine that's going to be a hard listen, but a really fascinating one as well.
Rachel: And the Research Matters podcast is just brilliant. You know, whether you love sitting down and reading a paper, or whether that's your nemesis, having to focus on the written word for a period of time, it just really brings all of that to life. And you, we get to hear so much about the passion and the hard work and the application of those research studies as Steph talks to those folk. On the Practice Matters Podcast, we've been doing a bit of a mini-series on depression. We've had some really excellent contributors like Kim Wright and Tom Richardson on Bipolar. Very recently we have just released a first for the Practice Matters podcast, which was a two part interview with Steve Hollan on cognitive therapy of depression. When you listen, you'll understand why it needed to be two parts. There was so much in that podcast. It was really fantastic talking to Steve. We've got a number of further episodes coming up in that series. I'm looking forward to talking to Heather O'Mahen and Sarah Healy on perinatal work. So that's going to be really fun. So yeah, do listen into the podcast. And remember, if you want to take part in this podcast, in the Ask Me Anything, please just email us [email protected] and we'll also put out an email to get in touch with us in the episode notes. So please do get in touch. We'll be back in a month's time with more BABCP news and updates, and it's goodbye from me and bye from me. Bye.
