My guest in this episode is Dr. Roland Tormey.

Roland is a sociologist and learning scientist, researching and teaching on engineering education in EPFL, Switzerland.  Prior to 2011, he worked in teacher education and in curriculum development in Ireland.  His recent research focuses on diversity and equality issues in learning, on the role of emotion in science and engineering learning, and on engineering ethics education.  His recent publications include co-authoring Facilitating Experiential Learning in Higher Education: Teaching and Supervising in Labs, Fieldwork, Studios, and Projects (2021), and co-editing The Routledge International Handbook of Engineering Ethics Education (2025). He also leads the Teaching Support Centre at EPFL, Switzerland.

In this episode Roland highlights his work on intercultural education guidelines and the emotional aspects of teaching, including frustration and anxiety. Roland emphasises the need to take emotions seriously in both teaching practice and educational research.

We discuss his early work on Irish identity and how it was represented in the curriculum, particularly in history. Roland’s interest in emotion in education was sparked by the cognitive focus of intercultural education literature and the emotional aspects of community changes.

We discuss the following in more detail; emotion in education and teacher competencies, challenges and emotional dynamics in teaching, emotion and reason in moral judgment, emotional labor in engineering and education, emotion and community in education and artificial intelligence and emotion in education.

Roland  describes how he and his colleague Róisín Corcoran explored how teachers develop emotional competencies, including recognizing and regulating emotions.They found that teachers have multiple roles, experiencing various emotions such as pride, anxiety, frustration, guilt, and shame. We discuss the emotional aspects of being a student teacher, including the high stakes and the emotional space of the teaching profession. Roland emphasises the importance of recognizing and managing emotions in teaching, as it is a crucial part of the learning process. 

Roland explores the relationship between emotion and reason in moral judgment, noting that emotions facilitate different types of reasoning. He explains that emotions like happiness and anxiety can impact different cognitive processes, such as brainstorming and error detection. The traditional view of emotion as a threat to reason is challenged by studies showing that emotions can enhance certain types of thinking.

We discuss the concept of emotional labor, particularly in engineering teams, where women often take on more emotional work. He gives examples of how women in engineering teams feel the need to suppress their emotions to overcome implicit biases. We discuss masculinity and subject disciplines in education and he references Máirtín Mac an Ghaill’s work on masculinities in schools, showing how subject disciplines can shape ideas of masculinity. He explains how different groups within schools construct masculinity through various disciplines, such as sports, business, and science.

Roland emphasizes the importance of building a sense of community in education, which involves recognizing and managing emotions.He discusses the emotional components of habitus, the social and psychological structures that shape individual behavior.

He shares a study on deep fakes and their effect on parasocial emotions, showing how emotions mediate power in social interactions. The use of deep fakes as a tool of power, particularly targeting women, is discussed in our conversation, highlighting the emotional dimensions of AI in education.

Professor Gerry Jeffers’ experience as an educator has been wide ranging.

In his twenties, he taught in a school in Kenya, East Africa. That experience shaped much of his subsequent work as a teacher, guidance counselor, school leader, national coordinator of the support service for Transition Year, lecturer in the Education Department at Maynooth University and as a writer.

In the 1980s, Gerry edited Young Citizen, a social education magazine for teenagers that promoted civic education before CSPE was established in schools. From 2013-2019 Gerry served as the independent chairperson of Ubuntu, a network of those in initial teaching education committed to integrating Development Education/Global Citizenship Education into initial teacher education.

Some of his recent projects include

- leading the team that created FairViews, a development education photopack;

-  a study of how schools respond to educational inequality; and,

- with Maynooth University colleagues Carmel Lillis and Majella Dempsey, a scoping study of deputy principals in schools.

His books include Transition Year in Action (Liffey Press) – now translated into Korean -and Clear Vision, the Life and Legacy of Noel Clear, Social Justice Champion (Veritas), a biography of a former national president of the Society of St Vincent de Paul.

Until Covid struck, Gerry facilitated a consultative forum for educators as part of the Inchicore Regeneration Project. He is also a member of a Board of Management in a secondary school in the DEIS scheme.

In this episode Gerry highlights the paradoxical roles schools play, from nurturing academic excellence to addressing social justice and the expectation on schools to fulfill multiple roles in society. He emphasizes the importance of reflective practice and the need for schools to challenge existing inequalities. He recounts his experiences, including the mainstreaming of the Transition Year program and the impact of educational research on practice. Gerry also touches on the potential and ethical challenges of AI in education, stressing the need for equitable access and the role of professional conversations in addressing educational disparities.

Gerry talks about how his wide-ranging experiences led him to question where these experiences fit into the bigger picture of society. He emphasizes the importance of sociology and sociology of education in understanding the role of schools in society and the tensions and contradictions they face.

He speaks about the tensions between preparing students for employment and developing their potential. We talk about the role of schools in creating a fairer and more just society and Gerry highlights the importance of reflective practice and challenging one's assumptions. Dr. Jeffers recounts his experiences growing up in the late 60s and the O'Malley initiative, which aimed to address educational inequality. 

His volunteer work in a disadvantaged youth club and reading an ESRI report on young law breakers shaped his understanding of poverty, inequality, and the role of schools. 

We discuss the power dynamics within schools, including the impact of uniform policies and the challenges of maintaining a balance between order and creativity. We explore the concept of school culture with Gerry defining it as the shared basic assumptions and beliefs that operate unconsciously within the school. Gerry emphasizes the importance of professional conversations in schools to address tensions and contradictions.

We discuss the mainstreaming of the transition year programme and its success in providing a bridge between junior and senior cycles. He highlights the role of transition year in building confidence, identity, and academic development for students while also highlighting the challenges of implementing transition year in disadvantaged schools and the need for it to be available to all students.

“Irish Classrooms Opening American Minds to New Aspects of Social Justice Education.” 

Dr. Jacquelynne Anne Boivin is an Assistant Professor of Elementary and Early Childhood Education at Bridgewater State University in Bridgewater, MA, USA, where she supervises student teachers, mentors honors thesis projects, and teaches math methods to elementary teacher candidates and seminars on deconstructing racism by integrating schools and decolonizing social studies curricula. She is co-chair of her department’s Anti-Racism Matters committee and supports and facilitates student and faculty professional development focused on diversity, equity, and inclusion. She is also co-chair of the College of Education and Health Sciences’ Diversity and Equity Council. She is a former elementary school teacher who uses her experience in the field to contextualize her instruction in teacher-preparation. She is the author of the book, Exploring the Role of the School Principal in Predominantly White Middle Schools: School Leadership to Promote Multicultural Understanding and co-editor of Education as the Driving Force of Equity for the Marginalized, The Role of Educators as Agents and Conveyors for Positive Change in Global Education, and STEM Education Approaches and Challenges in the MENA Region. Her largest passion is authentically connecting academic disciplines with social justice skills and understandings. In her spare time, she enjoys outdoor adventures with her husband, Craig, a warm cup of tea with a good book and her cat, and cooking and baking with food she grows.

Dr. Sheena Manuel Rancher is an Assistant Professor of Special Education with 18 years of experience working with students of all ages (P-adult) and abilities (with/without disabilities), from paraprofessional to professor. Before joining Bridgewater State University, she served as a Teacher of Blind Students and National Orientation and Mobility Certified (NOMC) instructor for seven years, serving families in Louisiana, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and Florida. Currently, she educates teacher candidates on social justice in schools and society and curriculum development for students with moderate disabilities in grades P-12. As a co-chair of the College of Education and Health Sciences’ Diversity and Equity Council, she works to increase Brave spaces to discuss social justice topics and implications and offer professional development around equity.

In May 2024, Dr. Boivin and Dr. Rancher traveled to Ireland with a group of teacher candidates and visited Marino Institute of Education in Dublin and St. Mary’s University College in Belfast and visited primary schools in Dublin and in Belfast where they observed teachers across a range of classes. This episode has been inspired by their visit to Ireland and their learning from Irish classrooms. In this episode we discuss the integration of social justice and equity in education, emphasizing their collaborative work and experiences. Jacquelynne and Sheena highlight the importance of explicit teaching of social justice, the role of teacher candidates in diverse settings, and the impact of cultural immersion in Ireland on their teaching practices. They address the challenges of addressing race and equity in predominantly white teaching environments, the significance of critical race theory, and the potential of AI in education. They stress the need for teacher candidates to be critically reflective, to understand and address biases, and to promote equity and inclusion in their teaching.

They both discuss how as teacher educators and teachers that “we really need to promote critique" and “not to be reluctant to critique, not to accept everything at face value, and to interrogate..So, you know, because things are never, always as they seem, either..there's always something. There's a context, you know, that surrounds everything”.

Michael is Professor in Inclusive Education and Director of the Trinity Centre for People with Intellectual Disabilities in Trinity College Dublin. His teaching and research have focused on facilitating the inclusion of children and young people with special educational needs within mainstream schools, promoting the voice of marginalised people within decision making processes that affect their lives, and addressing access issues for young people with disabilities within compulsory and higher education. He has completed longitudinal national studies investigating the provision of inclusive education in the Republic of Ireland. Michael is involved in policy making initiatives within Irish education in relation to the development of inclusive learning environments in schools and higher education. As Director of the Trinity Centre for People with Intellectual Disabilities he manages the delivery of an accredited education into employment transition programme for young people with intellectual disabilities.

In this episode Michael and I discuss his journey from teaching to inclusive education, emphasizing the importance of engaging students with intellectual disabilities. He highlights the evolution of awareness programmes, the benefits of inclusive education, and the need for systemic change. He describes the Trinity Centre for People with Intellectual Disabilities (TCPID), emphasizing universal design and self-determination. He stresses the role of interagency collaboration, the potential of AI in education, and the necessity of hope and imagination in fostering inclusive environments.

Michael describes the “..enormous progress..in terms of legislation, in terms of policy, in terms of understanding…” within the field of inclusive education.  Notwithstanding this progress however, he believes that “we have to keep reinterpreting.. what does inclusion mean?” He notes that while it’s “not quite every year, but it's every four or five years” that we must reinterpret, “because different challenges come... He states that “...we're in a system… primary, secondary system, that of its nature, if it's just left to its own devices, is not necessarily inclusive”. 

Michael describes how when the concept of TCPID was first discussed how the “..idea of young people with intellectual disability going to university was quite radical. It was quite revolutionary”. He explains how “it came from a set of parents who saw their children going to sheltered workshops” and how these parents and others saw that these young people “were capable of far more than they were engaged in..” In 2004 TCD agreed to set up the centre “with funding from Atlantic Philanthropies” and in 2014 the School of Education in TCD took over TCPID, establishing a very committed team “who are determined that these young people can and will succeed”. In establishing TCPID, “ the idea was to really create a pathway in, a pathway through, and a pathway out…Let's do a general programme. Let's introduce them to lots of different areas of knowledge”. The centre now boasts what Michael describes as “a wonderful repository of great people, great academics, great teachers, great therapists, all these people, and that's the resource..”. 

Michael concludes by saying “I've always seen education as being about hope, about educators, whoever they are, teachers, parents, community, people, right across the board as hopeful and providing that pathway of hope, and what does that look like, and what does that feel like? And I think that's we have to keep doing that and keep reminding ourselves this is a really hopeful adventure that we're on”.

This conversation is rich, enlightening, informative and exudes hope and positivity. It was an absolute privilege to interview Michael and to hear about his work, his research and his stellar commitment to Inclusion and Inclusive Education. 

Joanne is a lecturer and researcher in inclusive education at the School of Education in Trinity College Dublin. Joanne worked for over a decade in education research in the Economic and Social Research Institute on education research before moving to Trinity. She has a PhD in History from University College Dublin, and a degree in Geography and Sociology from Trinity College Dublin. Her research interests are in the field of inclusive education and educational inequality. She has published widely on special and inclusive education policy and practice, school exclusion, and student diversity. She is the presenter and author of the Inclusion Dialogue podcast series and books.

Link to Joanne’s podcast: Inclusion Dialogue | Podcast on Spotify

And Joanne’s book: Banks, J. (2023). The Inclusion Dialogue: Debating issues, challenges and tensions with global experts, London: Routledge Education.

In this episode we discuss a myriad of inclusion related issues and concepts as Joanne describes her career to date and explains the title she has chosen for this episode stating that she “picked the title because it's the most controversial thing in my field, my sub kind of area, which is inclusive education”, and how “it incenses some academics and others around the world, and other academics stand firmly behind it”. She believes that it is quite a polarized well and “can often appear quite a polarized debate”, She emphasises that “increasingly, it's changing…and refers to full inclusion and whether our education systems are striving for an education system where every child has the right and capacity or ability to attend their local school regardless of whatever characteristics they hold, whatever background they have..”

She says that the All means all movement is quite common and while it is not a term hugely used in Ireland, “possibly because it's nearly too contentious”, but in Australia, New Zealand and in Canada, All means all is a movement. Joanne believes that it is a way of addressing some government systems who profess to have an inclusive education system. 

We also discuss the following;

Early Career and Research Interests

Joanne describes her PhD experience at UCD and her multidisciplinary research environment, her role at the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI) and her research work on the Leaving Cert Applied (LCA) programme. 

Sociology of Education and Inclusive Education

Joanne discusses the sociology of education and its relevance to her work and highlights the importance of inclusive education and the challenges faced by students with special educational needs within our education system and in our schools and education settings. 

The Inclusion Dialogue Podcast and Book

She recalls being prompted by the realization that there was a wealth of knowledge about inclusion from “really amazing academics all around the world”, and that there was no kind of common binding force or base for students to access that material. She decided to email twelve people that she had been reading for decades “and quite intimidated by probably”, but they all came back and were delighted to participate in her podcast and it grew from there. 

Other topics we discuss include; challenges in inclusive education and systemic issues; the role of guidance and support in education; The Altitude Charter and Universal Design in Education and the role of Artificial Intelligence in education.

This was a really thought provoking podcast episode and it was a real privilege to speak to Joanne about all things ‘inclusion’ through a sociology of education lens. Tune in and listen to this episode to learn much more and also tune in to Joanne’s Inclusion Dialogue podcast for more great episodes, her The Inclusion Dialogue book is available here.

Dr. Melanie Ní Dhuinn is a Senior Lecturer in Education in Marino Institute of Education and previously worked as an Assistant Professor of Teacher Education in the School of Education in Trinity College and Director of the Professional Master of Education in Hibernia College. She is a qualified post-primary teacher (Physical Education and Gaeilge) and now works across primary and post-primary teacher education as a Teacher Educator and a Researcher. 

In this podcast Melanie interviews leading researchers, academics, social justice activists, policy makers, curriculum specialists and practitioners as they talk about the Sociology of Education across the continuum of education and how it looks in everyday reality in its many forms and guises.

This is season two of her podcast; “Let’s Talk About the Sociology of Education”, you can listen to season one episodes here. This podcast was developed initially as a resource to support student teachers and others working in Initial Teacher Education to try and make sense of and demystify what can be abstract and dense sociological theories and recognise them in real-time practice. The podcast has gone from strength to strength, now boasting global listenership and interest appealing to many, inside and outside the field of education. 

The podcast is broad ranging and covers a range of sociological perspectives, experiences and discussions including Social Justice, Equity and Equality, Disability, Inclusion, Cultural Capital, Schools and Schooling, education systems, technology in education, LGBTQI+ experiences in education, values, beliefs, gender in education, global citizenship, the family and school, emotion in sociology and much more. Tune in to learn from expert researchers, academics and practitioners as we discuss everything and anything sociological within the field of education.