In this podcast, Dan Bowen, Beth Worrall, and Lee Hickin talk about the Metaverse. They discuss what it may be and their personal thoughts on how it will be developed and used.

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TRANSCRIPT For this episode of The AI in Education Podcast Series: 5 Episode: 1

This transcript was auto-generated. If you spot any important errors, do feel free to email the podcast hosts for corrections.

 

 

 

Hi, welcome to the AI podcast with Beth Wara, Lee Hickin, and me, Dan. Hi, Beth. Hi, Lee. How are you? I'm I'm not important now. It's just all about Beth. I know that. So, yeah. Sorry. Sorry. You've been usurped. I have. That's okay. I'm I'm used to that. So, I know. Great to see you, Beth. Yes. Well, I am uh very excited to be here. So, for the first podcast of the year, and I'm excited to to plan it out with you both and um and offer my two cents uh as as weak as it probably will be. We're just pleased you came back. We thought, you know, after Christmas break, you'd think about it and go, "Oh, you know, that was a really bad idea to commit to that." Super idea. Such was the demand from listeners. is that I felt compelled to come back. Absolutely. I think we all did. Um Yes. My mom definitely. I think she's our only listener at the minute. But um and they've come in like thinking about the fact that we probably haven't talked to each other for quite some time now. We've been over the summer break in in the southern hemisphere. My uh folks landed from uh the UK last week and that we hadn't seen them for four years. So the end of not saying the end of co that's touch wood touch everything but people reconnecting over the summer. Um, doing stations locally in Australia, catching up with people without masks on, with the masks on. I suppose it's a summer of reconnection. Yes, definitely. Best way to put it. Well, it was like like I mean, you say reconnecting. I was just thinking about traveling and I went traveling for the first time in such a long time. I was just saying to you before we started recording about getting on a plane and going down to the Barasa and how unusual it was to be actually not just traveling. I mean, I almost forgot had to do the airport thing for a bit um having done it so much. But uh but it was great to just be out and meeting people. You know, we're putting masks on, but we're just getting on with it and just doing, you know, normal things. So that was that was great to be out there and doing it. Did you get out at all, Beth? Did you do any travel? Yes, I did. So, um although albeit not particularly exotic. So, we stayed in South Australia, but we did a couple of trips around. And you know, I guess the the um silver lining of CO is is that appreciation for what's in our own backyard. So, I'm doing my bit for local tourism to to try and see um some of the the lovely places of uh South Australia. But it, you know, just in the last couple of weeks from a work perspective, it has also been a bit of a a reconnection for me as well. And you know, just this week, I was meeting people for the first time that I have had um I've been working with them for for two years. And to actually see them face to face face was a wonderful experience, but also it just reminded me of how um how much I've missed it. How much I've missed that kind of face to face actual contact and um interaction in real life. I think it also reminded me of how short I am and how I physically short physically short I assume that everyone is about the same height and it's um sadly that is not the case and I'm actually a lot shorter than I had um in in my mind. So, it's been sobering, shall we say? I I met somebody who I'd known for 10 years on Twitter and they didn't even realize I was Welsh. That was quite bizarre. The other thing, the reconnection point was that there's a bit of a void or a gap in inclusivity. Having helped my mom uh come across from the UK, the systems across multigos very very different. You know, the vaccination proofs and things like that. And for people people, you know, who aren't technically savvy. It's very hard to actually connect to society in a way that's easy. In Australia, we've got the app and the New South Wales app and you assume everybody can use it, but actually technology isn't easy to use, right? And and and you know, the the there was about three apps there to download in the UK and you know, they had to download to go into NHS, get the vaccination status, then you've got to do PCR, then you've got to do Australian thing, then there's a family exemption form. and and all of these things you've got to do all absolutely geared around technology but none of the systems connected all independent you got to do them in the right order then when you get to Australia you got to do almost like the same thing and prove evidence it's it just reminds you that we've come so far with a lot of the technology but we also are not including a lot of people in in in in the same thing and you think how many people have missed out or or have had to struggle uh during this pandemic if only there was some kind of digital virtual experience where you could come together and do all of these things in the same way in the same place regardless of the country you're in or the language you speak. What what what what would that be if it was like a sort of a a universe that wasn't real? What what would you call that? Would it be a metaverse? Maybe. Maybe. Lee, maybe we should talk about it in this. What do you think, Beth? Yes. Well, um I'm I'm very interested to talk about that, but uh to your earlier point about inclusion. Dan, I think we I was party to a conversation last week with a customer in working in government health and this is an area that they're really starting to to look at, you know, what can they do now to better include people who um who have been left behind by this kind of trend and reliance on technology. Um, and it's it's interesting in the metaverse, are we just exacerbating that problem that we already have by creating a whole new world for people to interact more about the metaverse. I I must admit I I would like to know a little bit more about about it. I've um I'm hoping it's um it's not going to require me to get a Mark Zuckerberg haircut. Um in tell me more, Lee. Well, look, maybe the haircut becomes irrelevant because in the metaverse, doesn't matter what your real hair looks like. You can have the most beautiful hair virtually, of course, in the metaverse. Where do we start, Dan? How's the What? Like I'm trying to the best way to describe it. I I I think before we even describe that, I think going to your point at the beginning to to think back and again, you know, we always talk about history and the way things connect at the minute in Dubai, they've got the Grand Expo there. Um I know Jackie was coming on our podcast uh from one giant leap is is there at the minute uh in Australia got a presence there and those expos I suppose have brought people together to I think the first one in Crystal Pal or whatever was was kind of brought together by you know Prince Albert Victoria's husband Queen Victoria Queen Victoria's husband that's exactly right and it was Prince somebody um but uh but I remember the um being Welsh see I know all the princes and the kings of England but um bringing technology and ideas together from around the world and learning from each other and being part of one area I suppose and like we're doing now in the big big expose in in Dubai and the like. You know, I think we've always tried to bring people together and and bring communities together, haven't we? And and from an education point of view, I think about Second Life and the work that Bron Stucky and lots of the team across the the world are doing and have done in education over the last years and universities where you bring people together in those global environments and and then also the way that people bring communities together for hybrid work and how you keep your teams together. So, I suppose it's gone historically and I suppose what I'm thinking about it's all about communities and connections and connecting together and obviously that's taken a turn recently with technology with Facebook changing it name to Meta and lots of tech companies mentioning this and I think it's left people a little bit in the dark by thinking well you know we're inventing the plane as we flying in some cases and that's why we're all scratching our heads think I don't have the answer but and I think Dan the way you describe it is nice way to think about it you know this idea that it is really about bringing people together but I think The truth of the matter is it's almost been a corrupted term. I mean and you know the sort of generalized acceptance of the knowledge of the term being brought up um in snow crash as this idea of a almost the escapism but really in fact it's kind of a way that to almost hyper hyper emphasize the the discrepancies in society. The idea that there that if you rebuilt society in this virtual way you could really separate the the halves and the have nots those that the you know the the wealth and the elite and the and the not so wealthy and it became a sort of a way to almost to think about the idea of rebuilding society. Now if you look at the narrative of what you know Mark Zuckerberg and others talk about when they talk about the metaverse and the idea they're still talking about re reinventing society reinventing the way in which we interact and transact you know then things like unfortunately the metaverse NFTTS and web 3.0 or web 3 whatever it's called are all sort of now becoming a bit inextricably linked together on this idea that people against the system. We can break down what used to be. We can build it all on the blockchain, which almost makes me vomit a little bit in my mouth when I say those words, but we build it on the blockchain and it's kind of this nobody owns it but everyone is involved in it kind of idea. I think that's a nice idea to your point, Stan, but the reality is is it going to be like that? I mean, what really is the metaverse beyond simply just, you know, a virtual place where we go and interact and play games. Now, is it going to replace how we do it today? Is it going to replace physical connectivity? I still think to me there's a real challenge between replacement versus augmenting. Does the metaverse create this new place where we can do something new? And granted, we can do amazing things in the metaverse. You know, not, you know, not to use Ready Player One as an example, but that idea that it can literally be the playground of your dreams. And people who are to your point earlier about inclusiveness, you know, people who are either wheelbound, wheelchair bound or have limited vision or limited hearing or limited sight or any other uh situation they're dealing with dayto-day a metaverse changes that you can be who you want to be and you can experience life in different ways but can it replace some of the physicality of all the things we just talked about I think this is where to me I find I get lost a bit in the rhetoric of how amazing it's going to be because it really is going to be fun but is it going to be amazing and change our world not so sure and I had a conversation the other day with a with a customer of of mine and we just talking talking about this and and they were thinking of different view points on it and I think there's a there's a not a cynicism coming through but there's also different companies have got different thoughts on what that is and and and some may be harder driven say for example and some you know so it might be pushing down the VR route um so people think okay well the next thing we going to invent is whatever and and and that's I I think your analogy there is great because for me having used VR previously and used hollow lens and I'm not this isn't anything about any particular company but VR was very much that immersive experience where you're inside a world and you you you were covered inside, you know, you're in there, you know, you fall over and walk into walls and things. Whereas the mixed reality experience is very different where you're adding that data and uh AI on top of the current world. So you, you know, you're actually operating on somebody who's in a a particular operating theater and you're remote assisting them, you know, to to actually understand how that operation's happening. And I think That would be where you know I I and some of that technology and that that's the thing when you talk about these things and you start talking to family friends and and you know CIOS and things like that some of that stuff's there already. So we've almost got in my mind a metaverse and people are building layers upon it. Um what do you think then? Yeah it's uh you again I I feel like um I'm a bit unsure about what it will all mean. I do remember um when Second Life was you know and everything that that people were talking about. And um I remember meeting someone who introduced me to their wife um their their partner and that they were the wife in real life but also in Second Life. And I thought that that was quite an unusual distinction that that he would feel the need to specify that they were also married in Second Life. And so um you know to to your point Lee that we can build this utopian society and be anything that we want I wonder what you know where people are going to take that and if we can't make our current world livable for a big chunk of the population what might that mean in a a metaverse you know also how might we um I wonder from a government perspective you know are we creating a utopia or will it be a wild west you know can people get are people going to be vulnerable to attacks are people going to be you know, having to to protect themselves in a in an environment that none of us really understand, let alone the um you know, the legislators, who who will protect us in a in a a world that transcends national borders, what will that mean from a legal perspective? Um you make a you make a actually a really interesting point, Beth, which is, you know, you talk about your friend from Second Life who you was married in real life and in the virtual life, and it made me realize, you know, in deference to what I just said about the fact that I don't necessarily see it being that thing. We can't dismiss it as as a as a as a game or a fad or an idea. If you think about Second Life at the time, which was early 2000s, technology, it was a it wasn't realistic, you know, as if you ever saw it. It was kind of basic looking, but it was fun and people engaged in it. People bought real things or fake things in the real with real money. But then you hear so how many stories you hear about people who've met their partner online. You know, they play Halo together or they play Sims together and they've done these things. And as I talk to my kids who are kind of living in this different kind of world to what I live in to and do you see the shift in the normality of it to say well actually to you and I of our generation it seems incredulous to think that there is this you that will be the world you'd live in but at the same time to a new generation it's perfectly normal to meet friends virtually and that is how you engage. So I think there's a fairness to say that actually as the technology gets better and it is more realistic and more immersive and more it captures your emotions more. Never say never. And maybe we do see this world where actually, you know, generations of humans from from now experience a better life there than they do perhaps sometimes in their real life. As scary as that may seem to us, but that's possible. But that that also, you know, I'm thinking back to when I used to teach and and talk about e safety a lot. And then we were talking about, you know, I always used to say how many friends you have on Facebook, how many this is before Instagram and like, you know, how many friends you have on those social platforms? Whether it was my space in the day, you know, and and like I do the same with my kids now. You know, my daughter has got a Tik Tok account and she's got like thousands of followers and she doesn't know them all. And the conversation 10 years ago, 50, whenever was was very much around, you know, that's dangerous and they're not friends. There's a there's a difference between friends and there's a difference between like your connections now. Um, so it it's not as sinister as it was, although the threats are still the same from a safety point of view, obviously. ly, but um then you start thinking well you can see why social media companies are interested in metaverse areas because it's about connecting people and connecting lots of people together because then but then we go down that rabbit hole that we've had before around AI where the algorithm dictates the people that you meet and dictates the interests you've got and uh and then we get in that dangerous land as well. So you can see I suppose just in our conversation here why uh some companies are going down that route already. It's about those connections and about fostering that. So, well, here's an interesting point for us to think about. Have we all had a personal experience of the metaverse or at least a some version of it? Uh, you know, for me, I do because I have an Oculus Quest and I kind of put off this whole VR thing. I thought, well, you know, it's a it's expensive and b what's the point? And it was a bit like that moment if you remember when you got a mobile phone for the first time and you kind of put it on and went, why didn't I do this 10 years ago? This is amazing. And I must admit that I when you first try out at the experience, it is totally and completely immersive and it is a wonderful experience from a entertainment point of view and I can sort of start to see the snippets of how I might choose to uh watch movies collaboratively in Oculus on my VI headset. You watch large screen movies bigger than any TV I've got in 3D in collaboration with one of you also wearing a headset. So I started to see these ideas of it, but for me it's still caught up in that world. of its escapism. It's a place I go to to do something that is clearly just gaming or or or you know fantastic in its experience. But I must admit for me that the first time I put on a VR headset and I'll be honest with you and I'm just Microsoft guy. I put on a hollow lens long before that and did mixed reality and was less excited for me. I kind of went oh this is cool interesting but I didn't want to go back and do it more. The VR headset that fully immersive is a bit of a dopamine hit and you put it on and you're like oh wow this is you know this feels very real. So I don't know to Beth Dan have you ever tried VR or tried other versions of this kind of approach? Uh as as the um as the heathen of the group I would say um I have had very limited experience. I have tried a hollow lens and I actually it actually made me feel physically sick and I know that there um you know the the some of the the limitations of some of the the gadgets that would that are out there now do have issues relating to making people feel dizzy or nauseous and you know doing the roller coasters but even just moving around with it on I found quite unusual. So I I'm probably one of those people that adopts the technology much much later um and when it's a lot less cool I'm unfortunately one of those late late adopters. So um for me I think I I can understand the value and the excitement of of it um being an addition to gaming. But as I'm not really a gamer, I I haven't um I haven't used it. And and I think it's it's an interesting it's an interesting idea, but I just wonder, you I try not to get too sucked into the hype around these things. And for me, I'm I'm just not sure if it's just more hype, especially looking to one particular organization that has has tried to kind of seize mind share in regard to this technology is a that particular organization is not an organization that I really admire that much. Yeah, I think of defining what this is going to be. Um, you know, I almost don't want to be part of it. Um, and you nothing beats a, you know, a a pint of beer in a pub with someone you can see with your own eyes. I think I think she just invited us for a drink down. That's what I thought I'd get. I know. I'm on my way like I think I think there's a couple of things le um the um from my point of view I think I've seen some really great stuff from my experience I used VR initially and it was okay but it wasn't great and again like we've always had when the people have gone into that it's been limited in applications so 3D and things like that it was always great but there was limited 3D models from an education point of view where we'd start to push the cutting edge with like this 3D or even in the defense industry the models had to be developed individually and they got very very expensive to develop. You know, like the inside of a submarine to do defense training or whatever it might be, you know, they cost millions of dollars to actually implement. So, and then you had the de dem democratization of it through things like Google Cardboard where kids in school putting things on their face, the mobile phone with a Google Cardboard insert kind of thing, and then you'd be able to look around an interactive video or like a place in Rome. and you go to places and do that. But then I suppose it's the opposite to you guys. I thought the hollow lens stuff took it to the next level because that was really really interesting because that's what I thought that it was you weren't just in this environment that was like a game because I totally understand where you're coming from Lee, you know, and I think this is an interesting way to think about it as well from gaming and and and you know, Xbox and PlayStation and and Nintendo where they're going to take the metaverse. But when I'm looking at it, I'm thinking, well, you know, when I was watching kids go from m Minecraft using the Windows, you know, so I was demoing in schools and then they'd go into the VR version of Minecraft. They would get blown away. You'd watch them and they'd go, "Wow, I'm now inside this amazing world I've just created in Minecraft and it would blow their minds and they were in it and they you'd see that moment of immersion every time." And then sometimes with people who were in wheelchairs and things utilizing uh kids in wheelchairs utilizing VR, they'd blow their minds. It was like they can move things around and and the the where that's gone with the Oculus um Quest and the like is just the fidelity now and the the way you can interact is phenomenal. But I did like the hollow lens only because it felt to me as if it was it had more of a real impact in terms of you could see through it. You're augmenting the world rather than being in like a VR world. And I worry about that people thinking metaverse like you said Lee earlier on about NFTTS and things that I think the the general consumer is thinking metaverse is a VR world where I buy avatars and NFTTS and kind of do things there and that's where I worry quite okay I agree and that I did make that comment about web 3 and and NFTs because there is a kind of this association with them all being part of the same sort of uh evolutionary step in in technology but I heard a phrase the other day which I wanted to share with you both because I I just I was thinking about it more and more as I heard it and it relates the idea about you know not to we're not going to talk anything about Activision Blizzard purchases but would think about why gaming has suddenly become such an important part of big business and the ecosystem is I heard this phrase serious gaming and the idea was that what we're seeing because as we're evolving to these experiences online either through business world you know we think about things like remote assist and using these experiences as well as in our downtime and and entertainment they're essentially merging and blurring and and the development of the new worlds in which we want to operate in online are being driven by game development and game experiences and game mechanisms. And so very quickly, yeah, game developers, content creators in the gaming world who are very good at creating photorealistic environments that simulate the real world are suddenly the new darlings of what is going to be this metaverse because that's the world that's going to be created. And you think about those experiences we want to create for people, the meaningful experiences, not the pointless ones. You want it to be realistic and engaging. and and then feel like a game but know that it's an experience you're you're you're getting involved in. So there's this real bleed. This is this idea of serious gaming that gaming ideas and methodologies and content and creating bleeds into serious development of you know world and experiences and and things that we do. So I think it's it kind of for me takes some of the sting out of the tale of the the the metaverse being just this vacuous hole of of nothingness and people buying bought eight t-shirts for a million dollars that they don't actually own they just own the URL uh you know into something where they're actually like you know then you might say well the man the metaverse now it might matter now we could actually use and need a metaverse because it becomes something that creates things that people need today people actually people you know who need it because it creates experiences they couldn't have any other way in the world and and that's really important I don't know it's a really hard one um and it's certainly not one that I think you know in the same way that a lot of technology now just infuses itself into our lives Speaking of which, by the way, I started doing Wordle over the Christmas break and now I cannot. Yeah, it's an addiction. So, see how technology just becomes part of it. Don't do it. Um, but as it becomes part of it and it sort of its way into it, yeah, we need some ground rules. You know, Dan, previous episodes Beth P, we talked about the, you know, the the the laws of robotics, you know, then Isaac Azimov's view on that. But I think feels like the metaverse, like AI and all these things kind of needs some guardrails to the rules of don't talk about it. That's the first step. Yeah, we've broken that one already. We talked about these um things previously as well or orally jac when we talking about AI and ethics and the how you standardize. So there's some rules of the metaverse, right? That there's a framework that was it Tony Par you found. Yeah, he put together put together an idea of it. Well, let let's talk about there's seven of them. I don't think we need to go through all of them, but we can kind of group on them together, but and it's by no means the rules. It's a framework. or an idea about what we need to think about because to Beth's point earlier, you know, we've got Facebook and all these organizations kind of taking on that lead role in the in the metaverse and I think we'd all agree that, you know, Facebook has it place in people's lives, but maybe it's not the place that owns this virtual life that we live in. But it sort of says, okay, well, with all of these things happening, there should only be one metaverse. At the end of the day, if there's 25, 100 different metaverses, they stop being metaverses. They start being uh, you know, corporate cataloges or uh games in individual games. There has to be one otherwise what is the point if it's not we all live in one universe so there should be one metaverse and the confusion in there as well is like I went to see that Spider-Man movie with my kids the multiverse I think that's another thing that's throwing the spanner in the works with all of this terminology isn't it like hold on are we going to get into metaphysics now we're going to really break our brain no please not you say no there should be one I get that here's the really interesting on uh because I think this is kind of actually the core of it. The metaverse needs to be for everyone and in that in that definition it means that there is no price of entry. There is no purchase mechanism required to get in and there is no means by which you can get a better metaverse with more money. And I think that's something that's you know really important and I think Beth you know the work you do around sort of thinking about social value and all these things and and thinking about how technology should be leveling and including everyone not actually creating barriers. I think that's actually what you said up up front, wasn't it? About credit. Exactly. And and and I think the challenge here is that um if if you kind of understand there's a requirement for infrastructure and and physical devices to access a metaverse, then immediately you're excluding probably the vast majority of people that wouldn't be able to afford those devices. I guess if if you kind of flip that, most people now have a mobile mobile phone of some description and if there was to be a metaverse that was truly inclusive then could we retrofit it to a platform that is much much older and I think the the short answer is no but um you it does I can't see that this will be accessible to everyone um that said and and picking up on your point Dan about children in wheelchairs some of the work that Microsoft has done uh for Xbox in you know making devices actually physically accessible to um to people who are gaming with um a disability is really inspirational. And if if we are building a metaverse that is inclusive, I I would hope that um that some of those devices would take into consideration how they can be modified for people with disabilities and and and that is only really the the application that I can think of a metaverse that that is exciting ing um you know if if it can create opportunities for people who have been excluded for physical disabilities then then it suddenly I can I can get get with the program and actually think it's a good thing but as as you're talking you know it it for me it feels like it's almost technology looking for a problem to solve as opposed to starting with the problem in the first place. So we've got all of this technology and gaming you and people you know, the vast majority of users in this area are gamers and and and that has accelerated the development. And in looking at that infrastructure, it's almost like how do we deploy that for other purposes, but it's looking for the problem to solve. We're not starting with the problem first, or at least that's that's my Yeah, I think you're right. We're not to a degree, yes, it's technology, and then we're sort of figuring out how people might use it, which is yeah, not always the right way, but I I don't know if I I'm not sure if I necessarily agree with with you that it is purely as cleancut as just you know this is some cool technology and then we'll figure out where it goes. I think there's a sense of to a certain degree society and human instinct pushes us in directions that is symbiotic with technology and we do things because technology enables us to and then technology enables us to do it better and we move forward. I mean you the evolution of the mobile phone into the device that is today is a great example of how it it has changed the way we exist but it's also created tremendous opportunities and whilst we might not have known 25 years ago what it was like. We could never have foreseen it. So, it would be hard for us to say, well, we don't need a metaverse because we don't need one today. I mean, it's the old adage of, you know, well, if I asked people what they wanted when they want when I was building the car, they would have asked for faster horses because that's what they wanted. So, I think there's a bit of a ch there's a not not but you're right on I think the hardware thing that the whole point you made about the hardware and I it got me thinking about one particular issue is because the idea again next rule of this is that the metaverse should be hardware independent. Anyone should have access to it with whatever hardware and I'm sure very smart people could figure out ways that your average mobile phone could be a way to connect in. But it did get me thinking and I don't think we want to dive too deeply into it because I don't know any of us are experts but the metaverse is largely defined as being a visually enhancing experience. You you see it, you experience it. And I wonder how feasible is to think about an audioescribed metaverse. You know, what does that actually look like in the same way that and I've I've seen some podcasts on people people who who are blind who watch movies with audio uh descriptions, audio captioning and I mean to them it's it's a very immersive experience. So maybe it's hard for me to see here as you know fully cited to kind of go well I don't know how you do that. Maybe when you live in that world it's a different way to think about it but it is interesting when you say about hardware independency. How do you build VR goggles for someone that does not use their eyes in the same way that you or I do? Yeah and and Lee when you talk about it as a visual experience I think that's an interesting one. as well. So if co has taught us nothing, it's taught us about the power of human interaction which is that face-toface interaction. If you think about a human being, we have the taste, you know, we have the sense of taste, smell, touch, hearing, and and vision. And if this is going to be a visual experience, it's I can't see it will ever replace even if people have these incredible awesome lives and you can be whatever you want, on in in your new second life. Um, you know, I just wonder if it's ever going to be able to replace that face to face human interaction that ultimately is I I think what it means to be human to to give someone a hug or to, you know, to cook something together. It's I can't I can't see that this met is ever going to be the have a the colleague. I I I tend to agree with you, but I like I I think there's I think the danger that everybody in society is getting that it is going to be this um you know fantastical VR environment and maybe it is maybe that is an element of it but maybe it's also more than that you know in terms of the the like I was saying about that layered approach um uh you know obviously we're not going to talk about what the different companies are doing in these areas I suppose because everybody's doing different things but but like I said when I was speaking to a customer the other day I was talking to them about the experience that they've got already because sometimes it's like when you when you pair it back as well and you say to somebody what do you want in a learning platform for example and they'll say well we want a way to be able to deliver content and assess work and automate that um and and sometimes they can do that with tools they already have they don't need to go out and buy a learning platform and then they realize so is it about connection and talking about learning improving learning outcomes for example so I suppose what I'm saying is I I still worry myself. I don't think, you know, I know the one particular company is angling for this 3D world, VR elements to it. And maybe I'm wrong here, but I'm also thinking that in an enterprise, your metaverse might be tools and technologies to connect people in a better way or actually be able to um partake in Teams meetings or whatever meetings you're having uh in a in a slightly different way almost like a hybrid approach maybe. Maybe there's a there's a hybrid element to all of this. Yeah, I think I think you're right. I think that's if if I was to take away anything from our conversation, it almost is that it is we need hybrids. We can't have there's no ultimates in here. There's no ultimatums here. There's no this or that. It's a hybrid, at least for now until either technology or society catches up and moves in a specific direction. Um it needs to be a combination of both. Um and I think that's really important. And you made a point there, Dan. I think you you kind of talked about you don't rebuild things that already exist. or you know build on the work we've already got. That's the other key thing. The last point around these kind of rules of the metaverse u you know there is only one metaverse. It's for everyone. It's it's independent and nobody controls it. And the last one is this idea that the metaverse is a network and it is really the internet and we don't want to go rebuilding the internet. This is I think some of the concerns around when I think about web 3.0 and this idea we're going to rebuild another internet that's decentralized and we could talk for another hour about the the reasons why that's a really bad idea but or at least a good idea poorly executed. Um but I think that's another important thing is the metaverse should exist in the things that we have today. It should be an extension of what we know today in the worlds we live in today. Um because I think that the end that's one of the things again if you go back to that serious gaming thing what uh and the inclusivity piece we talked about earlier on if you think about how people um interact with systems and services there was a great story I heard the other day about you know my grandmother uh actually well I'm not my grandmother because she's been long past but you know People of that era would never use computing in computer games, never pick up an Xbox controller. It is completely alien to them to think about using a device like that. It is a young person's game if you want to kind of call it that very brutally. But when the Wii Nintendo launched the Wii and they created this spatial experience, this idea that you didn't actually hold a computer that control it and you held a thing and you interacted with the world in that meaningful way. Now, if you start to think about the evolution of that into this metaverse world where the design of our system we interact with are spatially aware. So, humans interact with them in the way that they naturally behave. There is no requirement. Dan, to your point really early on about the complexities of See, I told you we'd get back to building a metaverse. The the complexities of having different systems and it looks different, it behaves different. But if you did it innately, if it was like you pulled up a piece of paper and wrote on it in a virtual environment, that's how you signed your COVID certificate and it didn't matter what the technology behind it was. That's where I think then you start to get into this idea that, you know, gaming technologies, 3D spatial awareness, virtual environments and the metaverse creates a place where actually humans can behave perhaps more like humans than they do today with computers. Yeah, I'll throw that one out there as a mic drop moment. I know like and and and and to think about there you know we've come into this uh first episode of the series trying to take on one of the topics that's happening at the minute and I think uh everybody's done admirably to kind of try to um talk about where we where we stand with the metaverse. So everybody listening to this if they can't cars and at home can think about what what they think the metaverse is and how that would apply in their industry with this health, you know, sustainability, disabilities, inclusion. There's so many areas that this this could actually work. But that's been a brilliant first episode. But before we go on to episode two, thinking about it, Beth, you've got some interesting things that happened today, haven't you? Wow. Yeah. Oh, this week. Yes. So, I have spent the last couple of months working with Lyn McDonald who is our Azure space lead for Microsoft and we have cooked up and launched a program in South Australia but with grand plans to expand nationally. Um and the intent with that program is to give women an opportunity to get a foot in the door of a career in space defense and technology. So we're working with a partner called modus who are part of the adeco group and we're taking a tech academy model from Europe to and we're expanding it here in South Australia to start with and then the ambition is to extend it um nationally. And the reason why I'm so excited apart from trying to to um encourage more women into technology, there was a report out last week from the tech council that talked about the power of technology roles and um and they found that getting anyone into a tech job is the single biggest way that we can drive social mobility in Australia because technology as an industry is so agnostic in regard to um uh your your cultural background or your your kind of academic background. So it's uh to yes we will have a conversation with Lynn coming up. She's an incredibly interesting and passionate person and um and she can tell you a little bit more about our program. Hopefully by then we may have some women already appointed into into the program as well. That'll be so good. I saw the launch photograph today and it was it was fantastic. So, well done, Beth. That's brilliant. But thanks again both for for um coming together and starting off our season. We've got some really exciting guests coming up and we're going to start talking about space and there's lots going on. So, the metaverse. Wow. We've covered that one today. Well, I think we might have just scratched the surface, but we did a good start. Yeah, maybe we'll have to revisit it in a year and see where we are. Good idea. Look forward to it. Thanks, Dad. Thanks. Thanks, everybody. Thanks, Bman. Hello. Hey.