Liminal Space 临界之间

Travis Tookey — known here as Haima, “seahorse” in Mandarin — grew up third-generation Japanese Canadian in Vancouver, in a family whose Japanese roots ran through internment camps in northern BC as easily as through sushi dinners and Ghibli movies. At 21, he left for Shenzhen to be an au pair with a mixed French-Chinese family, a short-term plan that turned into a year, then a return trip to study Mandarin at Tsinghua, then a job leading Lululemon’s growth in Shanghai, where he volunteers at Move Crew, one of the city’s best-known running communities. This conversation moves from wartime family history to New Year’s in rural Sichuan to what it actually takes to build a sense of belonging in a foreign city, sport by sport, Sunday by Sunday.

Key Themes

• Growing up bicultural in Vancouver — Japanese heritage as daily texture (language, food, media) rather than identity performance, and the shifting sense of who counted as “the Asian friend” or “the white friend” depending on the room
• Three generations of a Japanese Canadian family split by WWII: one grandmother sent back to Japan just before the war, the other grandfather interned with his family in the BC interior, and how a high school history project was the first time Travis heard either story in full
• A serendipitous, almost accidental decision to become an au pair in Shenzhen at 21, arriving with no Mandarin and no real plan
• Being folded into a host family’s Chinese New Year in rural Sichuan, the trip Travis still calls one of his favorites in China
• Choosing to return and study Mandarin at Tsinghua over the “obvious” choice of learning Japanese, and what that says about which culture actually pulled at him
• Coming back to China a third time for Lululemon, and the difference between visiting a place and building a career and community inside it
• Volunteering and running with Move Crew, a Shanghai running club recently recognized by Timeout Shanghai — community-building as a deliberate answer to the loneliness of expat life
• What two decades (in family history) and two years (in career) of moving between Canada and China have taught Travis about staying ready for opportunities you can’t plan for

Key Takeaways

• Family history isn’t background information. Travis didn’t hear his grandparents’ full internment and wartime stories until he went looking for them in high school, and that act of asking reframed how he understood his own place between cultures
• The “long-term plan” rarely survives contact with China — an au pair gig meant to last one visa cycle became a year, a return trip, and eventually a career
• Immersion beats intention. Travis learned more Mandarin osmotically, listening to a host family talk, than he expected to learn by studying

Chapters

• (00:00) Introduction to the podcast and Travis’s bicultural identity
• (02:29) Growing up in Vancouver’s Japanese community and bicultural identity
• (04:19) Family history: Japanese Canadians, WWII internment, and intergenerational contrasts
• (13:04) Realizations from a high school history project about family and history
• (17:16) How Travis’s initial interest in China was sparked by serendipity
• (22:20) First impressions and cultural shocks upon arriving in Shenzhen
• (38:59) Experiencing Chinese New Year with a local family and its significance
• (45:04) Transitioning back to Canada and the decision to study Mandarin in Beijing
• (52:28) Studying at Tsinghua University and building friendships across China
• (66:54) Career steps and return to China working for Lululemon
• (75:53) Navigating life in Shanghai: building community through running and social groups
• (93:23) Reflections: perseverance, openness, and staying ready for opportunities

Resources & Links

• Japanese Canadian Timeline - Nikkei National Museum and Cultural Centre
• National Association of Japanese Canadians

This podcast is brought to you by C^2 Collective, a multicultural nonprofit community empowering young people across China and beyond to think curiously, connect across cultures, and create positive change | see https://csquared-collective.com/ | We host events, run a social innovation network, and publish the Curation^2 newsletter @ https://imablur.substack.com/

Music by Megan Tan
Art by Cindy Zhang

被深圳"收养"的男孩:海马与他的双城中国路
Travis Tookey——在这里大家更熟悉的名字是"海马"——在温哥华长大,是第三代日裔加拿大人。他的日本血脉,一半流淌在寿司晚餐和吉卜力电影里,一半深埋在BC省北部的日裔拘留营历史中。21岁那年,他前往深圳,成为一个中法混血家庭的互惠生——原本只是一次短期计划,却延长成了一整年,随后他又回到中国,在清华大学学习中文,再后来加入露露乐蒙(Lululemon),带领其在上海的业务拓展。如今,他也是Move Crew的志愿者之一,这是上海最知名的跑步社群之一。这场对话从战时的家族往事,聊到四川农村的春节,再到在异国他乡真正建立归属感需要什么——一场跑步接着一场跑步,一个周日接着一个周日。

关键主题

• 在温哥华的双文化成长经历——日本文化不是一种身份表演,而是日常的质感:语言、饮食、动漫。而"谁是亚洲朋友、谁是白人朋友",这个界定会随着所处的圈子而不断变化
• 一个日裔加拿大家庭在二战中被拆散成两条线:外婆在战争爆发前被送回日本,外公则和家人一起被关进BC省内陆的拘留营。直到高中一次历史课作业,Travis才第一次完整听到这两段往事
• 21岁那年,一次近乎偶然的决定——去深圳做互惠生,不会中文,也没有任何长远计划
• 被寄宿家庭带去四川农村过春节,Travis至今仍称这是他在中国最喜欢的经历之一
• 选择回国学习中文而非"顺理成章"的日语,这个选择本身,说明了哪种文化真正在牵引着他
• 第三次回到中国,这次是为了露露乐蒙——"路过一个地方"和"在这里扎根经营事业与社群",是完全不同的两件事
• 以志愿者身份加入Move Crew,一起跑步——这个最近被Timeout Shanghai评为上海最佳跑步俱乐部之一的社群,是他对海外生活中那种孤独感的主动回应
• 在加中两国之间辗转的这些年——家族史里的几十年,和职业生涯里的这几年——教会了Travis如何为那些无法计划的机会时刻准备着

核心启发

• 家族历史从来不只是背景信息。Travis直到高中主动去问,才第一次完整听到外公外婆关于拘留营和战争年代的故事——而这个"主动去问"的动作,重新定义了他理解自己身处两种文化之间位置的方式
• "长期计划"在中国往往撑不了多久——一份原本只打算做满一个签证周期的互惠生工作,变成了一整年,又变成了一次回归,最终变成了一份事业
• 沉浸胜过刻意学习。比起正儿八经地学习,Travis从寄宿家庭日常对话中"泡"出来的中文,反而学得更多

章节时间轴

• (00:00) 播客介绍及Travis的双文化身份
• (02:29) 在温哥华日裔社区中成长的双文化经历
• (04:19) 家族史:日裔加拿大人、二战拘留营与两代人的反差
• (13:04) 一次高中历史作业带来的家族认知
• (17:16) 一次偶然,点燃了Travis对中国最初的兴趣
• (22:20) 初到深圳:第一印象与文化冲击
• (38:59) 在寄宿家庭中过中国春节及其意义
• (45:04) 回到加拿大,决定赴北京学习中文
• (52:28) 在清华大学求学,以及在中国各地结下的友谊
• (66:54) 职业转折:回到中国加入露露乐蒙
• (75:53) 在上海的生活:通过跑步与社交群体建立社群归属
• (93:23) 反思:坚持、开放心态,以及为机会做好准备

相关链接

• 日裔加拿大人历史年表 — Nikkei National Museum and Cultural Centre(日裔国家博物馆与文化中心)
• National Association of Japanese Canadians(加拿大日裔协会)

本播客由C²Collective出品,这是一家跨文化非营利组织,致力于赋能中国及全球的年轻人,培养好奇心、跨文化连接与积极创造力 | 详见 https://csquared-collective.com/ | 我们举办线下活动、运营社会创新网络,并发布Curation²通讯 @ https://imablur.substack.com/

音乐 by Megan Tan 插画 by Cindy Zhang

In this episode, we sit down with Gideon Goldfeder—American educator, longtime Beijing resident, and self-described old Beijinger—to trace a life built on curiosity, adaptability, and an almost accidental commitment to China.

Gideon's story begins in Rochester, New York, where growing up Buddhist and Jewish in a predominantly white suburb made him an outsider long before he ever left the country. That early experience of not quite fitting in (economically, religiously, culturally) becomes the quiet throughline of everything that follows. At the University of Chicago, a graduate-level course on the mind-body dichotomy in the Yijing pulls him toward cultural studies and, eventually, toward China. An intensive summer at Tsinghua is his first encounter with the country, and it's enough to make staying feel more natural than leaving.

What follows is less a career path than a series of genuine experiments: conducting on-the-ground HIV/AIDS research in rural China, teaching oral English to Tsinghua freshmen with names like Bacon and Shampoo, DJing Beijing's underground club scene as DJ Meaty, running beer pong nights at Pyro during the peak of foreign student culture, co-founding Monk Media to document the rise of Chinese rap and street culture, and eventually finding his footing as one of Beijing's most respected education consultants, all while raising two mixed-race daughters in one of the world's most mono-ethnic societies.

Underneath the breadth of experience, this conversation keeps returning to a single persistent question: what does it mean to belong to a place that will never fully claim you? Gideon is candid about the permanent outsider status that comes with being visibly foreign in China, about the invisible privileges and quiet isolations that accompany it, and about what it means to build a life and a family across cultures anyway. His answer, shaped by decades of Buddhist practice and hard-won pragmatism, is less about resolution than about learning not to need one.

Key Themes

• Growing up as a cultural and religious outsider in suburban America
• The intersection of language, identity, and cultural understanding
• HIV/AIDS in China: blood-selling scandals, policy disconnect, and the mechanics of protest
• The golden era of foreign student life in Beijing and its gradual disappearance
• Street culture, media, and the challenge of building creative companies in China
• The transition from generalist hustler to specialist consultant
• Raising mixed-race children in a mono-ethnic society
• Permanent foreignness, code-switching, and the limits of belonging

Key Takeaways

• Immersive language learning isn't just about fluency—it's about accessing an entirely different way of thinking.
• Chinese governance is more pragmatic and locally complex than Western narratives tend to allow.
• Feeling like an outsider early in life can become a long-term asset for navigating unfamiliar environments.
• Building a career in China often means embracing informality, relationship culture, and gradual trust—not credentials.
• Creative media work is far more labor-intensive than it appears from the outside.
• Consulting rewards depth and relationships in ways that tutoring and content creation simply don't.
• Raising children across cultures forces a reckoning with identity questions that can't be fully resolved in advance.
• Living well across cultures requires choosing not to let friction accumulate into resentment.

Chapters

00:00 Exploring Liminal Spaces: Introduction
01:15 Meet Gideon Goldfeder
03:22 Growing Up in Rochester: Outsider from the Start
08:04 Buddhism, Judaism, and a Hippie Mom in New York
12:00 Discovering Cultural Studies at UChicago
17:51 First Time in China: Tsinghua and the Smell of a Student Canteen
25:48 How to Actually Learn Chinese
27:33 HIV/AIDS Research and the Mechanics of Chinese Public Policy
36:52 Pragmatism, Protest, and What Western Narratives Miss About China
41:30 Life After Graduation: Teaching, Hustling, Finding Footing
50:41 DJ Meaty and the Beijing Club Scene
55:55 Beer Pong Nights and the Golden Age of Foreign Students
58:47 Building Monk Media: Street Culture, Rap, and Tattoos
68:16 Why Making Good Video Is Brutally Hard
70:44 The Shift to Education Consulting
76:26 Becoming a Girl Dad in Beijing
79:30 Permanent Foreignness and the Limits of Belonging
85:27 Code-Switching, Passing, and the Privilege You Didn't Ask For
89:39 Dating and Marrying Across Cultures
95:25 Wisdom for the Path Less Traveled
99:52 Recommendations: Flowers That Actually Smell Good

This podcast is brought to you by C^2 Collective, a multicultural nonprofit community empowering young people across China and beyond to think curiously, connect across cultures, and create positive change | see https://csquared-collective.com/ | We host events, run a social innovation network, and publish the Curation^2 newsletter @ https://imablur.substack.com/

Music by Megan Tan
Art by Cindy Zhang

本期嘉宾：Gideon Goldfeder——美国教育顾问、北京资深居民、自称"老北京"——我们将与他一同回溯一段建立在好奇心、适应力与近乎偶然的对中国执着之上的人生旅程。

Gideon的故事始于纽约州罗切斯特市。在一个95%为白人的郊区，以佛教与犹太教交融的方式长大，让他在离开家乡之前便已是个局外人。这种在经济、宗教与文化上格格不入的早期体验，成为此后一切经历的隐秘主线。在芝加哥大学，一门关于《易经》中身心二元论的研究生课程将他引向文化研究，进而引向中国。清华大学的一个暑期强化项目是他与这片土地的初次相遇，而那次相遇已足以让"留下来"比"离开"更显自然。

此后的经历，与其说是一条职业道路，不如说是一系列真实的尝试：在中国农村开展艾滋病实地研究，为清华大学新生教授口语英语（班里有叫"Bacon"和"Shampoo"的学生），以DJ Meaty的身份活跃于北京地下俱乐部，在外国留学生文化鼎盛时期的Pyro酒吧主持啤酒乒乓之夜，联合创办Monk Media记录中国说唱与街头文化的崛起，最终成为北京备受认可的教育顾问之一——与此同时，在这个世界上种族构成最为单一的社会之一，养育着两个混血女儿。

在这一切经历的背后，对话始终回归同一个问题：在一个永远不会完全接纳你的地方，"归属"究竟意味着什么？Gideon坦诚地谈及在中国作为外貌可辨的外国人所伴随的永久异乡感，谈及其中隐性的特权与无声的孤立，以及究竟是什么让他选择在文化的夹缝中依然建立起自己的生活与家庭。他的答案，由数十年的佛教修行与来之不易的务实主义共同塑造——与其说是一种解答，不如说是学会了不再寻求解答。

核心主题

• 在美国郊区作为文化与宗教异类成长的经历
• 语言、身份认同与文化理解的交汇
• 中国的艾滋病危机：卖血丑闻、政策落差与抗议的运作逻辑
• 北京外国留学生文化的黄金年代及其逐渐消逝
• 街头文化、媒体创业，以及在中国建立创意公司的挑战
• 从"万金油"到专业顾问的转型之路
• 在单一民族社会中养育混血子女
• 永久的异乡感、语码转换与归属感的边界

核心观点

• 沉浸式语言学习不仅关乎流利表达，更是进入一种全然不同的思维方式。
• 中国的治理方式比西方叙事所呈现的更为务实，也更具地方复杂性。
• 早年的局外人经历，往往成为日后在陌生环境中生存的长期优势。
• 在中国建立职业生涯，意味着拥抱非正式关系网络与逐步积累的信任，而非依赖资历与证书。
• 创意媒体工作远比外界看上去更耗时耗力。
• 咨询行业奖励的是深度与关系，而非补课或内容创作所能给予的。
• 跨文化养育子女，迫使人直面那些无法预先解答的身份认同问题。
• 跨文化生活的核心，在于选择不让日常摩擦积累成怨恨。

章节

00:00 探索临界空间：节目介绍 
01:15 认识 Gideon Goldfeder 
03:22 罗切斯特成长记：从一开始就是局外人
08:04 佛教、犹太教，与一位嬉皮士母亲 
12:00 在芝加哥大学发现文化研究 
17:51 初识中国：清华大学与学生食堂的气味 
25:48 如何真正学会中文 
27:33 艾滋病研究与中国公共政策的运作机制 
36:52 务实主义、抗议，以及西方叙事对中国的误读 
41:30 毕业后的生活：教书、打拼、寻找方向 
50:41 DJ Meaty 与北京地下俱乐部场景 
55:55 啤酒乒乓之夜与外国留学生文化的黄金时代 
58:47 创办 Monk Media：街头文化、说唱与纹身 
68:16 为什么做好视频内容如此艰难 
70:44 转型教育咨询 
76:26 在北京成为女儿的父亲 
79:30 永久的异乡感与归属感的边界 
85:27 语码转换、"能够融入"，以及你未曾索取的特权 
89:39 跨文化恋爱与婚姻 
95:25 走少有人走的路：人生智慧 
99:52 本期推荐：真正好闻的花

本播客由 C² Collective 出品——一个赋能中国及全球青年跨文化思考、连接与创造正向改变的多元文化非营利社区。 官网：csquared-collective.com Newsletter《Curation²》：imablur.substack.com
音乐：Megan Tan 视觉设计：Cindy Zhang

In this episode, we sit down with Ruby Pak—hospitality entrepreneur and third-culture operator—to trace a life shaped by constant movement across systems, cities, and expectations.

Ruby’s story begins in Hong Kong and stretches across Beijing, Vancouver, the UK, and now Shanghai—a trajectory that exposes the subtle frictions of growing up between cultures. From language barriers and social exclusion in school to the quiet recalibrations required in each new environment, her upbringing becomes less about belonging to a place and more about learning how to adapt without losing a sense of self.

That tension carries into her early career, where she enters the world of luxury marketing only to confront the realities of office hierarchy, toxicity, and misalignment. What follows is not a clean pivot, but a gradual unraveling—one that leads her toward entrepreneurship in Shanghai’s hospitality and fitness scene. Through building Hasa House, Ruby begins to rethink what a “space” can be: not just a business, but an ecosystem for wellness, community, and self-reinvention.

Along the way, we explore how cultural identity evolves across geographies, why career paths rarely move in straight lines, and how moments of discomfort—social, professional, or internal—can become catalysts for clarity. At its core, this conversation asks: What does it mean to build a life that feels coherent when your experiences are anything but?

Key Themes

• Multicultural upbringing across Hong Kong, Beijing, Canada, the UK, and Shanghai
• Identity formation under conditions of constant transition
• Language, exclusion, and social integration in different school systems
• Career disillusionment and confronting workplace toxicity
• Entrepreneurship as a response to misalignment
• Building hybrid spaces that blend hospitality, fitness, and wellness
• Resilience, self-awareness, and redefining success on personal terms

Key Takeaways

• Growing up across multiple cultures can sharpen adaptability, but often complicates a stable sense of identity.
• Experiences of exclusion—especially through language—leave lasting imprints on confidence and belonging.
• Early career environments can reveal misalignment more clearly than they provide direction.
• Leaving a toxic workplace is often less about escape and more about reclaiming agency.
• Entrepreneurship is frequently born from frustration with existing systems rather than pure ambition.
• Physical and social spaces can be intentionally designed to support both individual and collective well-being.
• Clarity around one’s values tends to emerge gradually, often through periods of discomfort and transition.

Chapters
00:00 Exploring Liminal Spaces in Identity and Culture
00:49 Meet Ruby Pak: From Tradition to Reinvention
02:39 Growing Up Between Cities: Hong Kong and Beijing
05:26 Cultural Shock and Early Adaptation
09:06 Language, Exclusion, and School Life
12:50 Structure, Conformity, and Education Systems
15:31 Moving to Canada: A New Cultural Lens
18:17 Fitting In vs. Standing Apart
22:57 Navigating the Canadian Education System
26:59 College Decisions and Identity Formation
31:23 Reflections on University and Early Ambitions
35:57 Time in the UK and Career Direction
40:23 Entering the Professional World
44:49 Workplace Challenges and Personal Growth
48:01 Choosing People Over Prestige
55:18 Building a Restaurant from Scratch
01:06:17 Introducing Hasa House
01:16:14 Lessons for the Next Generation
01:26:25 Coffee Across Three Cities

Links:
福和光酒家 Fook Wo Kwong Restaurant
Hasa House Redbook
Hasa House Instagram
Hasa House (WeChat Account): Your Oasis in the City

This podcast is brought to you by C^2 Collective, a multicultural nonprofit community empowering young people across China and beyond to think curiously, connect across cultures, and create positive change | see https://csquared-collective.com/ | We host events, run a social innovation network, and publish the Curation^2 newsletter @ https://imablur.substack.com/

Music by Megan Tan
Art by Cindy Zhang

从第三文化小孩到第三空间的创造者：Ruby Pak谈身份、摩擦与在上海“设计归属”

在这一期节目中，我们邀请到Ruby Pak——餐饮创业者，同时也是一位典型的“第三文化成长者”，一起梳理一段在不同制度、城市与期待之间不断迁移的人生轨迹。 Ruby的故事始于香港，延展至北京、温哥华、英国，最终落脚上海。这一路跨越的不只是地理空间，更是文化与身份的反复碰撞。从校园中的语言障碍与被排斥的经历，到在不同环境中不断进行的自我校准，她的成长逐渐不再围绕“属于哪里”，而是转向如何在变化中保留自我。

这种张力延续到了她的职业早期。进入奢侈品营销行业后，她很快直面职场中的等级结构、隐性规则与不健康的工作环境。她的转变并非一次果断的跳跃，而更像是一种缓慢的“松动”与重构，最终将她带入上海的餐饮与社交健身领域。在创立Hasa House的过程中，Ruby开始重新思考“空间”的意义——它不只是一个商业场所，更可以成为承载身心健康、连接人与人、以及自我重塑的复合场域。

在这场对话中，我们也讨论了文化身份如何在不同语境中演化，为什么职业路径往往并非线性，以及那些来自社交、职业或内心的不适，如何反而成为通向清晰与自我认知的契机。归根结底，这期节目试图回答一个问题：当一个人的经历本身是碎片化的，我们该如何构建一种依然连贯的人生？

核心主题

• 跨越香港、北京、加拿大、英国与上海的多元成长经历
• 持续迁移状态下的身份建构
• 语言、排斥与不同教育体系中的社会融入
• 职业幻灭与对有毒职场环境的反思
• 将“错位感”转化为创业动力
• 融合餐饮、健身与社交的复合型空间构建
• 韧性、自我认知与对“成功”的再定义

关键收获

• 多文化成长经历能够提升适应能力，但也可能使身份认同变得更为复杂。
• 语言带来的排斥感，往往会对自信与归属感产生深远影响。
• 早期职场经历更容易暴露“不适配”，而不一定提供明确方向。
• 离开不健康的工作环境，与其说是逃离，不如说是重新掌握主动权。
• 创业常常源于对既有系统的不满，而非单纯的雄心。
• 空间可以被有意识地设计，从而同时承载个体与群体的身心需求。
• 对自我价值的清晰认知，往往是在不适与过渡中逐渐形成的。

章节
00:00 身份与文化之间的“边界空间”
00:49 认识Ruby Pak：从传统路径到自我重构
02:39 成长于多座城市之间：香港与北京
05:26 文化冲击与早期适应
09:06 语言、排斥与校园经历
12:50 教育体系中的结构与规范
15:31 前往加拿大：新的文化视角
18:17 融入与自我区分的拉扯
22:57 适应加拿大教育体系
26:59 大学选择与身份形成
31:23 对大学生活与早期理想的反思
35:57 英国经历与职业方向
40:23 进入职场
44:49 职场挑战与个人成长
48:01 在人和“名头”之间做选择
55:18 从零开始打造一家餐厅
01:06:17 Hasa House的诞生
01:16:14 给下一代的建议
01:26:25 三座城市的咖啡推荐

福和光酒家 Fook Wo Kwong Restaurant: https://m.dianping.com/shopinfo/H43Tk97j6mVctbyv?msource=Appshare2021&utm_source=shop_share&shoptype=10&shopcategoryid=205&cityid=1&isoversea=0
Hasa House 小红书: https://xhslink.com/m/3esgV8mWe0f
Hasa House Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hasahouse_?igsh=MTNlZjRuMTI1cDlmMQ==
Hasa House（微信公众号）：Your Oasis in the City

本播客由 C² Collective 出品——一个立足中国、连接全球的多元文化非营利社区，致力于鼓励年轻人保持好奇、跨越文化连接，并创造积极的社会影响
官网：https://csquared-collective.com/
Newsletter：Curation² @ https://imablur.substack.com/

音乐：Megan Tan
视觉：Cindy Zhang

In this episode, we sit down with Gab Liu—entrepreneur, cultural observer, and prolific side-project builder—to explore how a life lived across systems shapes the way you see opportunity.

Gab grew up navigating Beijing’s highly structured education system before finding intellectual and personal freedom in the U.S. at Oberlin and Wellesley. That experience of moving between worlds—Chinese and American, institutional and experimental—eventually shaped a career path that refuses to stay in one lane: venture capital, banking, consulting, and an ever-growing portfolio of side ventures ranging from an incense brand to a matchmaking platform.

Along the way, we talk about creativity under pressure in China’s education system, the hidden hierarchies inside traditional workplaces, and why curiosity and resourcefulness often matter more than a perfectly planned career path. We also dive into Gab’s creative outlets—music, fencing, and podcasting—and how side projects can become laboratories for identity, experimentation, and reinvention. At its core, this conversation asks a deceptively simple question: How do you build a life that remains open to experimentation while navigating systems that reward stability?

*To get this episode uploaded on the Xiaoyuzhou platform, we had to redact two short remarks at around 39:30 and 1:03:40. If you'd like to watch/listen to the unabridged version please navigate to (Youtube) From China's Education System to Startup Side Quests: Gab Liu on Curiosity, Culture, and Career Detours or (Substack) From China's Education System to Startup Side Quests: Gab Liu on Curiosity, Culture, and Career Detours

Key Themes

• Growing up inside China’s education system and its effect on creativity
• Cross-cultural transitions between Beijing and American liberal arts colleges
• Entrepreneurship through experimentation and side projects
• Career shifts across venture capital, consulting, and finance
• Cultural hierarchies and workplace dynamics in China
• Building niche businesses that translate culture across markets
• Creative outlets as a counterbalance to professional life
• Curiosity, resilience, and designing a non-linear career

Key Takeaways

• Early exposure to different systems can shape how people approach risk and opportunity.
• Creativity often emerges at the margins of rigid institutions.
• Side projects can function as “labs” for identity, experimentation, and new ideas.
• Understanding cultural hierarchy is essential for navigating traditional work environments.
• Cross-cultural experiences can reveal unexpected market opportunities.
• Career paths rarely unfold in a straight line; adaptability often matters more than planning.
• Creative pursuits—music, sport, or art—can anchor personal growth during periods of transition.

Chapters
00:00 Exploring Liminal Spaces: Introduction to the Podcast
00:43 Meet Gab Liu: A Multifaceted Entrepreneur
02:13 Early Life and Education: Growing Up in Beijing
08:39 Transitioning to High School: Challenges and Changes
13:01 Finding Freedom: A Year of Exploration Before College
15:58 College Experience: From Oberlin to Wellesley
25:25 Navigating Career Paths: Returning to China Post-COVID
29:31 Career Choices and Early Experiences
31:46 Insights from Venture Capital
34:50 The Role of Background in Success
36:42 Transitioning from VC to Consulting
38:45 Work Culture in Traditional Chinese Companies
41:56 Starting a Side Business: Incenzo
46:28 Marketing Cultural Products to Western Audiences
50:47 Investing in a Matchmaking Platform
54:44 Navigating Traditional Work Environments
01:00:51 Navigating Workplace Dynamics
01:03:43 Future Aspirations and Side Hustles
01:07:03 Cultural Bridges and Business Models
01:09:01 Creative Outlets and Personal Growth
01:13:46 Advice for the Uncertain
01:18:13 Podcast Recommendations and Closing Thoughts

Gab's Incense Startup: https://incenzo.co (Get 25% off with the code "Liminal25" at checkout!)
Gab's music projects: https://soundcloud.com/gab-liu
Chinese matchmaking platform: YuuSii 名校社交 (search on WeChat)

Email for Business Inquiries: [email protected]
Instagram/ WeChat: gabgoode

This podcast is brought to you by C^2 Collective, a multicultural nonprofit community empowering young people across China and beyond to think curiously, connect across cultures, and create positive change | see https://csquared-collective.com/ | We host events, run a social innovation network, and publish the Curation^2 newsletter @ https://imablur.substack.com/

Music by Megan Tan
Art by Cindy Zhang

从中国教育体系到创业副项目：Gab Liu谈好奇心、文化与非线性职业路径 

在这一期《Liminal Space》中，我们邀请到 Gab Liu——创业者、文化观察者，以及“副业实验家”，一起聊聊：当一个人的人生横跨不同制度与文化时，会如何改变他看待机会、风险与人生路径的方式。

Gab 在北京长大，早年经历了中国高度结构化的教育体系。后来，他前往美国，在 Oberlin 和 Wellesley 的自由学术环境中找到了另一种思考与生活方式。这种在不同体系之间不断转换的经历——中国与美国、体制与探索——逐渐塑造了一条难以被单一标签定义的职业道路：从 风险投资、投行与咨询，到不断尝试的创业与副业项目，例如香品牌 Incenzo 和一个撮合平台。

在这期节目中，我们聊到了很多话题：
 中国教育体系中的创造力困境、传统企业中的隐性等级文化，以及为什么 好奇心和解决问题的能力，往往比“精心规划的职业路径”更重要。我们也谈到 Gab 的创意出口——音乐、击剑、播客——以及副项目如何成为一个人探索身份、实验想法、不断重塑自我的“实验室”。

归根结底，这场对话围绕着一个看似简单的问题展开：
 当社会体系鼓励稳定与确定性时，一个人如何仍然保持对探索与可能性的开放？

核心话题

• 在中国教育体系中成长，以及它对创造力的影响
• 从北京到美国文理学院的跨文化教育体验
• 通过副项目和实验式创业探索机会
• 从风险投资到咨询与金融行业的职业转折
• 中国传统企业中的等级文化与职场生态
• 将文化元素转化为跨市场商业机会
• 创意爱好作为职业生活的平衡器
• 好奇心、韧性与非线性人生路径

关键收获

• 早期接触不同制度与文化，会深刻影响一个人对风险与机会的理解。
• 创造力往往诞生在制度边缘，而不是制度中心。
• 副项目可以成为探索身份、实验想法和孵化新机会的“实验室”。
• 理解文化中的等级关系，有助于更好地适应传统组织环境。
• 跨文化经验往往能揭示意想不到的市场机会。
• 人生路径很少是直线型的，适应力往往比规划更重要。
• 音乐、运动和艺术等创意实践，可以在人生转折期成为重要的锚点。

时间轴

00:00 探索“临界空间”：节目开场
 00:43 认识 Gab Liu：多重身份的创业者
 02:13 在北京长大：教育体系与成长经历
 08:39 高中阶段的转折与挑战
 13:01 上大学前的一年探索期
 15:58 大学经历：从 Oberlin 到 Wellesley
 25:25 疫情之后回到中国
 29:31 职业选择与早期经历
 31:46 风险投资行业的观察
 34:50 背景与成功之间的关系
 36:42 从 VC 转向咨询
 38:45 中国传统企业文化
 41:56 创立香品牌 Incenzo
 46:28 将文化产品卖给西方市场
 50:47 投资一个相亲平台
 54:44 在传统职场中的生存方式
 01:00:51 职场动态与人际关系
 01:03:43 未来计划与副项目
 01:07:03 跨文化商业模式
 01:09:01 创意爱好与个人成长
 01:13:46 给迷茫者的建议
 01:18:13 推荐播客与结尾

嘉宾链接

Gab 的香品牌（Incenzo）：
https://incenzo.co
结账时输入优惠码 Liminal25 可享 75折优惠

Gab 的音乐项目：
https://soundcloud.com/gab-liu

名校社交平台：YuuSii 名校社交
可在 微信搜索「YuuSii 名校社交」

商务合作邮箱：
[email protected]

Instagram / 微信：
gabgoode

关于我们

本播客由 C² Collective 支持。
C² Collective 是一个多元文化的非营利社区，致力于连接中国与世界各地的年轻人，鼓励跨文化交流、开放思考与积极行动。

了解更多：
https://csquared-collective.com/

我们也运营 Curation² Newsletter，分享有意思的思想、故事与链接：
https://imablur.substack.com/

Music by Megan Tan
Art by Cindy Zhang

In this episode, we sit down with Gab Liu—entrepreneur, cultural observer, and prolific side-project builder—to explore how a life lived across systems shapes the way you see opportunity.

Gab grew up navigating Beijing’s highly structured education system before finding intellectual and personal freedom in the U.S. at Oberlin and Wellesley. That experience of moving between worlds—Chinese and American, institutional and experimental—eventually shaped a career path that refuses to stay in one lane: venture capital, banking, consulting, and an ever-growing portfolio of side ventures ranging from an incense brand to a matchmaking platform.

Along the way, we talk about creativity under pressure in China’s education system, the hidden hierarchies inside traditional workplaces, and why curiosity and resourcefulness often matter more than a perfectly planned career path. We also dive into Gab’s creative outlets—music, fencing, and podcasting—and how side projects can become laboratories for identity, experimentation, and reinvention. At its core, this conversation asks a deceptively simple question: How do you build a life that remains open to experimentation while navigating systems that reward stability?

*To get this episode uploaded on the Xiaoyuzhou platform, we had to redact two short remarks at around 39:30 and 1:03:40. If you'd like to watch/listen to the unabridged version please navigate to (Youtube) From China's Education System to Startup Side Quests: Gab Liu on Curiosity, Culture, and Career Detours or (Substack) From China's Education System to Startup Side Quests: Gab Liu on Curiosity, Culture, and Career Detours

Key Themes

• Growing up inside China’s education system and its effect on creativity
• Cross-cultural transitions between Beijing and American liberal arts colleges
• Entrepreneurship through experimentation and side projects
• Career shifts across venture capital, consulting, and finance
• Cultural hierarchies and workplace dynamics in China
• Building niche businesses that translate culture across markets
• Creative outlets as a counterbalance to professional life
• Curiosity, resilience, and designing a non-linear career

Key Takeaways

• Early exposure to different systems can shape how people approach risk and opportunity.
• Creativity often emerges at the margins of rigid institutions.
• Side projects can function as “labs” for identity, experimentation, and new ideas.
• Understanding cultural hierarchy is essential for navigating traditional work environments.
• Cross-cultural experiences can reveal unexpected market opportunities.
• Career paths rarely unfold in a straight line; adaptability often matters more than planning.
• Creative pursuits—music, sport, or art—can anchor personal growth during periods of transition.

Chapters
00:00 Exploring Liminal Spaces: Introduction to the Podcast
00:43 Meet Gab Liu: A Multifaceted Entrepreneur
02:13 Early Life and Education: Growing Up in Beijing
08:39 Transitioning to High School: Challenges and Changes
13:01 Finding Freedom: A Year of Exploration Before College
15:58 College Experience: From Oberlin to Wellesley
25:25 Navigating Career Paths: Returning to China Post-COVID
29:31 Career Choices and Early Experiences
31:46 Insights from Venture Capital
34:50 The Role of Background in Success
36:42 Transitioning from VC to Consulting
38:45 Work Culture in Traditional Chinese Companies
41:56 Starting a Side Business: Incenzo
46:28 Marketing Cultural Products to Western Audiences
50:47 Investing in a Matchmaking Platform
54:44 Navigating Traditional Work Environments
01:00:51 Navigating Workplace Dynamics
01:03:43 Future Aspirations and Side Hustles
01:07:03 Cultural Bridges and Business Models
01:09:01 Creative Outlets and Personal Growth
01:13:46 Advice for the Uncertain
01:18:13 Podcast Recommendations and Closing Thoughts

Gab's Incense Startup: https://incenzo.co (Get 25% off with the code "Liminal25" at checkout!)
Gab's music projects: https://soundcloud.com/gab-liu
Chinese matchmaking platform: YuuSii 名校社交 (search on WeChat)

Email for Business Inquiries: [email protected]
Instagram/ WeChat: gabgoode

This podcast is brought to you by C^2 Collective, a multicultural nonprofit community empowering young people across China and beyond to think curiously, connect across cultures, and create positive change | see https://csquared-collective.com/ | We host events, run a social innovation network, and publish the Curation^2 newsletter @ https://imablur.substack.com/

Music by Megan Tan
Art by Cindy Zhang

从中国教育体系到创业副项目：Gab Liu谈好奇心、文化与非线性职业路径 

在这一期《Liminal Space》中，我们邀请到 Gab Liu——创业者、文化观察者，以及“副业实验家”，一起聊聊：当一个人的人生横跨不同制度与文化时，会如何改变他看待机会、风险与人生路径的方式。

Gab 在北京长大，早年经历了中国高度结构化的教育体系。后来，他前往美国，在 Oberlin 和 Wellesley 的自由学术环境中找到了另一种思考与生活方式。这种在不同体系之间不断转换的经历——中国与美国、体制与探索——逐渐塑造了一条难以被单一标签定义的职业道路：从 风险投资、投行与咨询，到不断尝试的创业与副业项目，例如香品牌 Incenzo 和一个撮合平台。

在这期节目中，我们聊到了很多话题：
 中国教育体系中的创造力困境、传统企业中的隐性等级文化，以及为什么 好奇心和解决问题的能力，往往比“精心规划的职业路径”更重要。我们也谈到 Gab 的创意出口——音乐、击剑、播客——以及副项目如何成为一个人探索身份、实验想法、不断重塑自我的“实验室”。

归根结底，这场对话围绕着一个看似简单的问题展开：
 当社会体系鼓励稳定与确定性时，一个人如何仍然保持对探索与可能性的开放？

核心话题

• 在中国教育体系中成长，以及它对创造力的影响
• 从北京到美国文理学院的跨文化教育体验
• 通过副项目和实验式创业探索机会
• 从风险投资到咨询与金融行业的职业转折
• 中国传统企业中的等级文化与职场生态
• 将文化元素转化为跨市场商业机会
• 创意爱好作为职业生活的平衡器
• 好奇心、韧性与非线性人生路径

关键收获

• 早期接触不同制度与文化，会深刻影响一个人对风险与机会的理解。
• 创造力往往诞生在制度边缘，而不是制度中心。
• 副项目可以成为探索身份、实验想法和孵化新机会的“实验室”。
• 理解文化中的等级关系，有助于更好地适应传统组织环境。
• 跨文化经验往往能揭示意想不到的市场机会。
• 人生路径很少是直线型的，适应力往往比规划更重要。
• 音乐、运动和艺术等创意实践，可以在人生转折期成为重要的锚点。

时间轴

00:00 探索“临界空间”：节目开场
 00:43 认识 Gab Liu：多重身份的创业者
 02:13 在北京长大：教育体系与成长经历
 08:39 高中阶段的转折与挑战
 13:01 上大学前的一年探索期
 15:58 大学经历：从 Oberlin 到 Wellesley
 25:25 疫情之后回到中国
 29:31 职业选择与早期经历
 31:46 风险投资行业的观察
 34:50 背景与成功之间的关系
 36:42 从 VC 转向咨询
 38:45 中国传统企业文化
 41:56 创立香品牌 Incenzo
 46:28 将文化产品卖给西方市场
 50:47 投资一个相亲平台
 54:44 在传统职场中的生存方式
 01:00:51 职场动态与人际关系
 01:03:43 未来计划与副项目
 01:07:03 跨文化商业模式
 01:09:01 创意爱好与个人成长
 01:13:46 给迷茫者的建议
 01:18:13 推荐播客与结尾

嘉宾链接

Gab 的香品牌（Incenzo）：
https://incenzo.co
结账时输入优惠码 Liminal25 可享 75折优惠

Gab 的音乐项目：
https://soundcloud.com/gab-liu

名校社交平台：YuuSii 名校社交
可在 微信搜索「YuuSii 名校社交」

商务合作邮箱：
[email protected]

Instagram / 微信：
gabgoode

关于我们

本播客由 C² Collective 支持。
C² Collective 是一个多元文化的非营利社区，致力于连接中国与世界各地的年轻人，鼓励跨文化交流、开放思考与积极行动。

了解更多：
https://csquared-collective.com/

我们也运营 Curation² Newsletter，分享有意思的思想、故事与链接：
https://imablur.substack.com/

Music by Megan Tan
Art by Cindy Zhang

In this episode of Liminal Space, we sit down with Ming Khor (education entrepreneur, former digital nomad, and cross-cultural bridge-builder) to talk about identity, service, and what it means to live between worlds without needing to dominate them.

Ming reflects on growing up in a multicultural environment in Washington, D.C., and how a formative experience volunteering as a teacher in China reshaped his understanding of privilege, service learning, and cultural humility. That journey eventually led him to build an education company centered on experiential, cross-cultural learning—designed not around “helping from above,” but around meeting others on equal footing. The conversation also traces the less romantic side of entrepreneurship: rapid growth during the pandemic, a painful contraction that followed, and the emotional reckoning that pushed Ming toward a slower, more values-aligned way of living. Along the way, we talk about risk, validation, mental health, nomadism, and the quiet power of stillness.

At its core, this episode asks: How do you design a life that honors your cross-cultural identity—without burning out or losing yourself to the system?

Key Themes

• Identity and privilege in liminal cultural spaces
• Service learning vs. saviorism
• Cross-cultural connection on equal footing
• Entrepreneurship, risk, and pandemic volatility
• Nomadism, slowing down, and value alignment
• Mental health, validation, and imposter syndrome
• Using a cross-cultural background as an asset

Key Takeaways

• Liminal spaces offer perspective—but they also require humility.
• Service learning works best when it’s rooted in mutual respect, not superiority.
• Rapid growth without risk management can come at a psychological cost.
• Slowing down is not failure; it can be a strategic and ethical choice.
• Every person is a “portal” into a different way of living and thinking.
• Cross-cultural identity isn’t a liability—it’s a form of leverage.
• Being still is also a form of action.

Chapters

00:00 — Identity, Culture, and Liminal Spaces
04:55 — Ming’s Multicultural Background
08:19 — First Encounters with China
11:41 — Service Learning and Cultural Humility
14:45 — From Teaching to Entrepreneurship
21:40 — Business School, Direction, and Doubt
26:35 — Imposter Syndrome and Validation
33:08 — Creating Opportunities Outside the System
35:51 — Building Keru and Experiential Learning
46:14 — Pandemic Growth, Collapse, and Resilience
51:20 — Nomadism, Freedom, and Self-Discovery
01:03:39 — Letting Go of Urban Life
01:07:08 — The Need for Roots and Stability
01:10:02 — Family, Relationships, and Priorities
01:10:56 — Listening to the Body: Stillness vs. Action
01:14:36 — Passion and Personal Fulfillment
01:14:52 — Advice for Those Who Feel Lost
01:19:14 — Cross-Cultural Identity as an Advantage
01:21:38 — Final Reflections and Looking Forward
01:28:14 — Recommendations & Outro

Ming's YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@shaguoyu
Ming's Substack: https://shaguoyu.substack.com

This podcast is brought to you by C^2 Collective, a multicultural nonprofit community empowering young people across China and beyond to think curiously, connect across cultures, and create positive change. We host events, run a social innovation network, and publish the Curation^2 newsletter @ https://csquared-collective.com/

Music by Megan Tan
Art by Cindy Zhang

从流动到安定：Ming Khor 谈游牧生活、倦怠与如何打造真正适合自己的人生

在本期 Liminal Space《临界之间》 中，我们与 Ming Khor 展开了一场深入的对话。Ming 是一位教育创业者、前数字游民，也是一位长期游走于不同文化之间的“跨文化搭桥者”。我们一起聊了身份、服务，以及如何在不同世界之间生活——而不是试图去主导或凌驾于它们之上。

Ming 回顾了自己在美国华盛顿特区多元文化环境中成长的经历，也分享了一段对他影响深远的经历：在中国担任志愿教师。这次经历重新塑造了他对“特权”“服务式学习（service learning）”以及“文化谦逊”的理解。也正是从这里出发，他后来创办了一家以跨文化体验式学习为核心的教育公司——不是站在“高处去帮助别人”，而是与不同文化背景的人在平等的位置上相遇、交流与学习。

对话同样没有回避创业中不那么浪漫的一面：疫情期间的快速扩张、随之而来的业务收缩，以及那段迫使他重新审视生活节奏与价值排序的心理低谷。我们谈到了风险、社会认可、心理健康、游牧式生活，也谈到“慢下来”本身所蕴含的安静力量。

从更深层次来看，这一期其实在追问一个问题：

如何在尊重自己跨文化身份的同时，设计一种不被系统吞噬、也不把自己耗尽的人生？

核心主题（Key Themes）

• 临界文化空间中的身份与特权
• 服务式学习 vs. “救世主心态”
• 建立在平等基础上的跨文化连接
• 创业、风险管理与疫情时期的不确定性
• 游牧生活、放慢节奏与价值对齐
• 心理健康、社会认可与冒名顶替综合征
• 将跨文化背景转化为人生资产

关键收获（Key Takeaways）

• 临界空间能带来视角，但也需要谦逊。
• 真正有效的服务式学习，来自相互尊重，而非居高临下。
• 缺乏风险管理的高速增长，往往伴随着心理代价。
• 慢下来并不等于失败，它可能是一种更有策略性、也更有伦理感的选择。
• 每一个人，都是通向另一种生活方式与思维系统的入口。
• 跨文化身份不是负担，而是一种“杠杆”。
• 停下来，本身也是一种行动。

时间轴（Chapters）

00:00 — 身份、文化与临界空间
04:55 — Ming 的多元文化成长背景
08:19 — 初识中国的经历
11:41 — 服务式学习与文化谦逊
14:45 — 从教学到创业的转变
21:40 — 商学院、方向感与迷茫
26:35 — 冒名顶替感与对认可的渴望
33:08 — 在系统之外创造机会
35:51 — Keru 的诞生与体验式学习
46:14 — 疫情中的增长、崩塌与复原
51:20 — 游牧生活、自由与自我探索
01:03:39 — 离开城市中心
01:07:08 — 对“扎根”的重新理解
01:10:02 — 家庭、关系与人生优先级
01:10:56 — 倾听身体：静止与行动之间
01:14:36 — 热情与个人满足感
01:14:52 — 给“迷路者”的建议
01:19:14 — 跨文化身份的优势
01:21:38 — 尾声：未来与个人成长
01:28:14 — 推荐与结束语

相关链接

Ming 的 YouTube 频道：
https://www.youtube.com/@shaguoyu

Ming 的 Substack：
https://shaguoyu.substack.com

本播客由 C² Collective 出品。
C² 是一个立足中国、面向全球的多元文化非营利社区，致力于鼓励年轻人保持好奇、跨文化连接，并创造积极的社会影响。我们举办线下活动，运营社会创新网络，并出版 Curation² 电子刊。
了解更多： https://csquared-collective.com/

音乐：Megan Tan
视觉设计：Cindy Zhang

In this episode, we sit down with Owen Sutter—an Oregonian who crossed the Pacific in search of opportunity, challenge, and a life that would never feel boring. From the chaotic charm of Ho Chi Minh City to the hyper-efficient pace of Shenzhen, Owen’s story reflects what happens when you place yourself at the edge of comfort and let the world reshape you.

We talk about ethical manufacturing, cultural immersion, and why Owen built a travel backpack brand, XOÀI Packs, rooted in transparency and fair labor. We explore the differences between Vietnamese warmth and Chinese ambition, the loneliness and beauty of building community from scratch, and how oil painting unexpectedly became his anchor in a new city.

At its core, this conversation is about designing a life the way you design a product: with intention, curiosity, and an open heart.

Key Themes

• Identity & culture in motion
• Living abroad as a catalyst for personal reinvention
• Ethical supply chains & transparent product pricing
• Individualism vs. collectivism across cultures
• Community-building in Vietnam and Shenzhen
• Art as mindfulness & meaning-making
• Creativity, risk, and designing a non-boring life
• The philosophy of liminal spaces

Takeaways

• Liminal spaces help us understand who we are becoming.
• Cultural immersion—done honestly—reshapes worldview and values.
• Transparency in pricing and production can benefit both maker and buyer.
• Career pivots during COVID required self-advocacy and courage.
• Vietnam taught Owen the power of community, warmth, and slowing down.
• Ethical manufacturing demands more than certifications; it requires care.
• Work-life balance dramatically differs across Asia.
• Painting helps Owen appreciate the world with more attention and presence.
• Building community in Shenzhen requires intention; hustle culture can isolate.
• Designing a travel backpack was as much about designing a life.
• Keeping an open heart invites opportunities you couldn’t plan for.
• Avoiding a “boring life” became a guiding principle.
• Being in a liminal space often opens more doors than it closes.

Chapters

00:00 — Exploring Liminal Spaces
 01:14 — Introducing Owen Sutter
 01:58 — The Backpack Business & Transparent Pricing
 04:08 — Growing Up in the Pacific Northwest
 06:13 — Career Pathfinding During COVID
 08:19 — How the Pandemic Shaped Opportunity
 12:40 — First Impressions of Vietnam
 15:14 — Individualism vs. Collectivism
 18:45 — Early Influences and Emerging Goals
 23:16 — Inside Vietnam’s Manufacturing Ecosystem
 27:41 — Supply Chain Challenges & Factory Realities
 30:28 — Cultural Differences in Problem-Solving
 33:48 — The Rising Potential of Vietnam
 36:25 — Building Community Abroad
 41:32 — Navigating Culture in Daily Life
 44:15 — The Leap to Shenzhen
 46:05 — Art as Expression & Mindfulness
 50:36 — Finding an Artistic Community
 54:54 — Challenges of Making Friends in Shenzhen
 58:35 — Building the Travel Backpack Business
 01:02:47 — Ethical Manufacturing & Values
 01:06:28 — Vision for XOÀI Packs & Personal Growth
 01:09:33 — Immersing in China’s Complexity
 01:14:28 — Designing Life Through Opportunity
 01:20:44 — Creative Recommendations & Closing

Owen's backpack project: www.xoaipacks.com
Email for inquiries: [email protected] 
Owen’s Newly Published Travel Writing: https://www.newenglishreview.org/articles/84984-2/

This podcast is brought to you by C^2 Collective, a multicultural nonprofit community empowering young people across China and beyond to think curiously, connect across cultures, and create positive change. We host events, run a social innovation network, and publish the Curation^2 newsletter @ https://csquared-collective.com/

Music by Megan Tan
Art by Cindy Zhang

从俄勒冈到越南再到中国：Owen Sutter 谈伦理制造、艺术与一段“在路上”的人生

在本期节目中，我们与 Owen Sutter 对谈——一位从俄勒冈跨越太平洋、寻找机会、挑战，以及“不无聊的人生”的年轻人。从胡志明市的混乱魅力，到深圳的高速律动，Owen 的旅程展示了：当一个人甘愿站在舒适区边缘，让世界重新塑造你时，会发生什么。

我们聊到 伦理制造、文化沉浸，以及他为何打造了透明定价、注重公平劳动的旅行背包品牌 XOÀI Packs。我们也讨论越南式的温暖与中国式的雄心之间的差异、在异乡从零建立社区的孤独与美感，以及为什么油画竟成了他在深圳扎根的方式。

归根到底，这期节目探讨的，是如何像设计产品一样——以 意图、好奇、与一颗敞开的心——来设计人生。

核心主题

• 身份与文化的流动
• 海外生活如何成为自我重塑的催化剂
• 伦理供应链与透明定价
• 个人主义与集体主义的文化差异
• 在越南与深圳建立社区
• 艺术作为正念与意义的来源
• 创造力、风险，以及拒绝“无聊人生”
• “过渡空间”（liminal space）的哲学

收获要点

• 过渡空间帮助我们理解正在成为的自己。
• 真诚的文化沉浸会重塑价值观与人生观。
• 透明的生产与定价，对消费者与生产者都有益。
• COVID 时期的职业转向需要自我争取与勇气。
• 越南教会了 Owen 社区、温暖和生活节奏的力量。
• 伦理制造不仅是认证，更是一种关怀。
• 亚洲各地的工作文化与生活平衡差异巨大。
• 绘画让人以更专注的方式欣赏世界。
• 在深圳建立社区需要刻意行动；“奋斗文化”容易让人孤立。
• 设计旅行背包，也是设计人生的一部分。
• 保持一颗敞开的心，会迎来意想不到的机遇。
• “不要过无聊人生”成为他的准则。
• 身处“过渡空间”，往往能看到更多可能。

章节结构

00:00 — 探索 Liminal Spaces
 01:14 — 认识 Owen Sutter
 01:58 — 背包品牌与透明定价
 04:08 — 成长于美国西北
 06:13 — COVID 期间的职业探索
 08:19 — 疫情如何改变机会
 12:40 — 对越南的第一印象
 15:14 — 个人主义 vs. 集体主义
 18:45 — 早期影响与未来目标
 23:16 — 越南制造业的内部生态
 27:41 — 供应链挑战与工厂现实
 30:28 — 文化差异与问题解决方式
 33:48 — 越南的潜力
 36:25 — 在海外建立社区
 41:32 — 日常生活中的文化碰撞
 44:15 — 移居深圳的跃迁
 46:05 — 艺术、表达与正念
 50:36 — 寻找艺术社群
 54:54 — 在深圳交朋友的挑战
 58:35 — 构建旅行背包事业
 01:02:47 — 伦理制造与价值观
 01:06:28 — XOÀI Packs 的愿景与个人成长
 01:09:33 — 深度融入中国
 01:14:28 — 用机会设计人生
 01:20:44 — 创意推荐与结束语

相关链接

Owen 的背包项目：www.xoaipacks.com
商业合作邮箱：[email protected]
Owen’s 新出版的旅游文章: https://www.newenglishreview.org/articles/84984-2/

关于本播客

本播客由 C² Collective 出品——一个跨文化的非营利青年社区，致力于激发好奇、连接文化、并推动积极改变。我们举办活动、运营社会创新网络，并出版双语通讯 Curation²：https://csquared-collective.com/

音乐：Megan Tan
视觉设计：Cindy Zhang

What happens when love sends you halfway across the world, and food brings you back home?

In this episode, Susan and I sit down with Tina Zhao — chef, entrepreneur, and founder of Alinta, a Shanghai restaurant that fuses Australian ease with Chinese precision. Tina first left Shanghai at 17 to chase love in Melbourne, only to discover something else entirely: her calling in the kitchen. From culinary school to fine dining, from private dining startups to reality TV, Tina’s story charts the high heat of the food industry across the creativity, the chaos, and the craving for ownership.

We talk about what it means to build something that’s 100% yours, the pressures behind “celebrity chef” culture, and how food can become a language of identity, one that bridges continents, careers, and selves.

Takeaways：

• Tina moved to Melbourne at 17 to chase love.
• Cultural shock was significant upon arriving in Australia.
• Tina's culinary journey began in culinary school.
• She found her passion for cooking quickly.
• Returning to China inspired her entrepreneurial spirit.
• Private dining became a successful venture for Tina.
• Tina's experiences on cooking shows were intense and stressful.
• She values privacy over fame despite her celebrity status.
• Tina has launched food startups in China.
• Her journey reflects the dynamic food industry landscape. Tina experienced significant stress in her previous roles due to high expectations and the need for constant creativity.
• She transitioned from the food industry to a consulting role, where she learned valuable skills but felt constrained by corporate structures.
• Tina's desire to open a restaurant stemmed from her passion for food and a need for creative freedom.
• Alinta, her restaurant, represents a fusion of Australian and Chinese culinary influences.
• Building a unique brand identity was crucial for Alinta, including designing the restaurant and creating a mascot.
• Food serves as a cultural connector, allowing Tina to bridge her experiences in Australia and China.
• Customer loyalty is challenging in the competitive Shanghai market, but Tina values the relationships she builds with regulars.
• Tina emphasizes the importance of having something that is 100% yours, whether it's a business or a hobby.
• She aims to help others in the food industry by sharing her knowledge and experiences.
• Tina's journey reflects the importance of optimism and taking risks in pursuing one's passions.

Chapters
00:00 Exploring Liminal Spaces: Introduction to the Podcast
05:20 Cultural Adaptation: Embracing Australian Life
11:06 From Culinary School to Fine Dining: Building a Career
16:30 The Entrepreneurial Spirit: Returning to China
20:22 The Reality of the Food Industry: Love and Stress
25:06 The Pressure of Fine Dining
28:50 Building Connections Through Food
30:44 The Journey to Television Stardom
31:37 Navigating the Challenges of Cooking Shows
32:38 The Fast-Paced Life in Shanghai
33:36 Cultural Adjustments After Returning to Shanghai
34:44 The Evolution of Shanghai's Food Scene
35:37 The Impact of Technology on Dining
36:35 Reflections on Fame and Privacy
37:26 Transitioning from Celebrity to Business
38:25 The Rise of Healthy Food Trends
39:14 Lessons from Food Startups
40:12 Consulting and Corporate Life
41:06 Balancing Creativity and Business
42:01 The Future of Culinary Ventures
45:27 Transitioning from Consulting to Culinary Ventures
49:10 The Impact of COVID-19 on Career Choices
52:53 The Birth of Alinta: A Culinary Dream Realized
57:43 Creating a Unique Brand Identity
01:03:22 Unexpected Encounters: A Full Circle Moment
01:04:16 Food as a Cultural Bridge
01:07:36 Evolving Menu Design for Customer Engagement
01:11:03 Adapting to Customer Preferences and Trends
01:12:33 The Journey of Entrepreneurship and Ownership
01:15:46 Vision for the Future in the Food Industry
01:18:06 Embracing Challenges and Positive Mindset
01:19:11 Recommendations and Personal Favorites

Little Red (小红书): tinayuezhao
Instagram: tinayyue
Email Inquiries: [email protected]

This podcast is brought to you by C^2 Collective, a multicultural nonprofit community empowering young people across China and beyond to think curiously, connect across cultures, and create positive change. We host events, run a social innovation network, and publish the Curation^2 newsletter @ https://csquared-collective.com/

Music by Megan Tan
Art by Cindy Zhang

当爱情带你远渡重洋，而食物又带你回家

当爱情让你漂洋过海，而食物又将你带回故乡，会发生什么？

在本期节目中，Susan 和我与 赵悦 Tina Zhao 对谈——她是一位厨师、创业者，也是上海餐厅 Alinta 的创始人。Alinta 将澳洲的轻松与中国的精致融合在一张餐桌上。17 岁那年，Tina 为了爱情离开上海前往墨尔本，却意外在厨房中找到真正的热情。从厨艺学校到高级餐厅，从私人定制餐饮到电视节目，她的故事横跨文化与行业，在高压与创造之间不断重塑自我。

我们聊到如何打造一个“百分之百属于自己”的事业，谈“名厨文化”背后的压力，也探讨食物如何成为一种跨越地域与身份的语言——连接大陆、职业与自我。

主要收获：

• 17 岁赴墨尔本追爱，却意外开启厨艺人生
• 初到澳洲的文化冲击让她重新认识自我
• 在厨艺学校找到了对烹饪的热爱
• 回国后激发了创业精神
• 私人定制餐饮项目取得成功
• 参加电视美食节目的经历紧张而高压
• 尽管拥有明星厨师身份，她仍更重视隐私
• 在中国创办多家餐饮初创企业
• 经历了行业的快速变迁与高强度创造压力
• 后来转入咨询行业，虽收获职场经验，却受限于企业结构
• 渴望重获创作自由，于是决定开设自己的餐厅
• Alinta 将澳洲与中国的风味、记忆与技艺融为一体
• 她亲自打造餐厅品牌、设计形象与吉祥物
• 认为食物是文化的桥梁，连接澳洲与中国的经历
• 在竞争激烈的上海市场中，她珍视与常客的长期关系
• 她强调每个人都需要一个“百分之百属于自己”的空间
• 希望通过分享经验，帮助更多餐饮从业者
• 她的经历展现了乐观、勇气与冒险精神的重要性

节目章节：

00:00 探索“临界空间”：节目介绍
 05:20 跨文化适应：融入澳洲生活
 11:06 从厨艺学校到高级餐厅：职业起点
 16:30 创业精神：回到中国
 20:22 餐饮行业的现实：爱与压力
 25:06 精致餐饮背后的高压
 28:50 用食物建立人与人的联系
 30:44 走上荧幕：厨艺节目经历
 31:37 面对烹饪节目的挑战
 32:38 上海的快节奏生活
 33:36 回国后的文化再适应
 34:44 上海餐饮业的演变
 35:37 科技如何改变餐饮体验
 36:35 关于名气与隐私的思考
 37:26 从“明星厨师”到创业者的转型
 38:25 健康饮食新趋势的兴起
 39:14 餐饮创业的经验教训
 40:12 咨询行业的学习与限制
 41:06 平衡创意与商业的挑战
 42:01 餐饮事业的未来展望
 45:27 从咨询到再创业的转折
 49:10 疫情对职业选择的影响
 52:53 Alinta 诞生：一个烹饪梦想的实现
57:43 打造独特品牌与形象设计
01:03:22 意外重逢：命运的回环
01:04:16 食物作为文化的桥梁
01:07:36 菜单设计与顾客互动的演进
01:11:03 适应顾客偏好与餐饮趋势
01:12:33 创业与“拥有感”的旅程
01:15:46 对餐饮未来的展望
01:18:06 拥抱挑战与积极心态
01:19:11 推荐与个人喜好

联系方式

小红书 | tinayuezhao
Instagram | tinayyue
商务邮箱 | [email protected]

关于本播客

本播客由 C² Collective 出品。
C² 是一个跨文化的非营利青年社区，致力于激发好奇、促进连接、并推动积极改变。我们在中国及世界各地举办活动、运营社会创新网络，并出版双语通讯 Curation²。
了解更多内容，请访问 👉 https://csquared-collective.com/

音乐：Megan Tan
视觉设计：Cindy Zhang

What does it mean to grow up with music, and then grow into it?

In this episode of Liminal Space, we speak with Henry Kong—festival organizer, music promoter, and 75th descendant of Confucius—about his journey from teenage rock star to cultural bridge-builder.

Henry reflects on his first bands, the vibrant indie scene in Beijing, and the challenges of staying authentic as commercialization reshapes China’s music industry. He also opens up about cultural adaptation as an international student in the U.S. (from Beijing to Bloomington, Indiana), the tension between identity and opportunity, and why storytelling is the key to meaningful cultural exchange.

From the chaos of touring to the quiet lessons of miscommunication, Henry shares the risks and rewards of carving out a career in music. For aspiring creatives, his advice is simple but vital: don’t be afraid to try anything.

Takeaways:

• Henry Kong is the 75th descendant of Confucius. (we don't know for sure lol!)
• His journey in music began with a middle school band.
• He took over a music festival in high school.
• Henry's experiences shaped his focus and confidence.
• The indie music scene in Beijing was vibrant and supportive.
• Commercialization has impacted the authenticity of music.
• Cultural adaptation is crucial for international students.
• Maintaining authenticity is important in cultural exchange.
• Henry's college experience was influenced by his music background.
• His unique story helped him stand out in college applications. Henry Kong transitioned from tech to music promotion.
• He emphasizes the importance of pursuing one's passion.
• Cultural exchange is vital in the music industry.
• The Chinese music scene is rapidly evolving.
• Henry's first promotion experience was with the band Escape Plan.
• He enjoys being a tour guide for artists.
• Miscommunication can lead to challenges on tour.
• Henry aims to be a key player in the Chinese music industry.
• He believes in starting small and scaling up.
• Storytelling is essential in bridging cultural gaps.

Chapters:
00:00 Exploring Liminal Spaces in Identity and Culture
01:11 Henry Kong: A Unique Journey in Music and Festivals
04:26 From Rock Star to Music Promoter: Henry's Background
08:54 The Evolution of a Music Career: From School Bands to Touring
15:21 Navigating Cultural Differences: Experiences in America
23:41 The Changing Landscape of the Indie Music Scene
28:14 College Life and Music: Balancing Passion and Education
39:21 Entrepreneurial Ventures: Lessons from Startups
40:46 The Journey into Music and Entrepreneurship
42:24 Building a Network in the Music Industry
44:06 Navigating Challenges in Touring
44:57 The Dual Role of Cultural Exchange
46:02 The Human Side of Touring
52:05 Miscommunication and Crisis Management
52:31 Balancing Education and Career
54:23 Adapting to Changes in the Industry
56:04 Consulting and Creative Collaborations
57:13 Opportunities for Cultural Exchange
58:46 Reviving the Live Entertainment Scene
01:03:43 Future Plans and Aspirations
01:05:58 The Dream of Cultural Storytelling
01:08:18 Advice for Aspiring Creatives
01:13:51 Recommendations for Films and Inspiration

Henry Kong's Email: [email protected]

This podcast is brought to you by C^2 Collective, a multicultural nonprofit community empowering young people across China and beyond to think curiously, connect across cultures, and create positive change. We host events, run a social innovation network, and publish the Curation^2 newsletter @ https://csquared-collective.com/

Music by Megan Tan
Art by Cindy Zhang

《摇滚之后，他选择讲述文化的故事——Henry Kong 的音乐与身份之旅》
成长于音乐，又在音乐中成长，这意味着什么？

在本期 Liminal Space 中，我们对话 Henry Kong——音乐节主理人、演出推广人，同时也是孔子的第75代后人（未经考证）。Henry 分享了他从少年摇滚乐手到文化桥梁建设者的独特旅程。

他回顾了自己最初的乐队经历、北京独立音乐场景的蓬勃与支持氛围，以及在商业化浪潮下坚持真实与独立的挑战。他也谈到自己作为国际学生在美国（从北京到印第安纳州布鲁明顿）的适应过程，如何在身份与机遇之间寻找平衡，以及为什么 “讲故事”是有意义的文化交流的关键。

从巡演的混乱到沟通失误中的安静教训，Henry 分享了在音乐行业中冒险与收获的双重体验。对于年轻的创意者，他的建议简单却重要：不要害怕尝试一切。

节目要点:

• Henry Kong 是孔子第75代后裔（未经证实haha）
• 中学时期就开始组乐队
• 高中时接手并运营音乐节
• 这些经历塑造了他的专注与自信
• 北京的独立音乐场景曾经充满活力与支持
• 商业化影响了音乐的真实性
• 文化适应对国际学生至关重要
• 在文化交流中保持真实尤为重要
• Henry 的大学经历深受音乐背景影响
• 独特的故事让他在大学申请中脱颖而出
• 从科技领域转型进入音乐推广
• 他强调追随热情的重要性
• 文化交流在音乐行业中举足轻重
• 中国音乐场景正在迅速发展
• 他第一次推广的乐队是 Escape Plan
• 喜欢当艺术家的“导游”
• 巡演中沟通不畅会带来挑战
• 目标是成为中国音乐行业的重要力量
• 相信要从小做起、逐步扩大
• 讲故事是弥合文化差距的核心

节目章节:

Henry Kong邮箱: [email protected]

出品方:

本播客由 C² Collective 出品。
我们是一个多元文化非营利社群，致力于帮助中国及全球的年轻人保持好奇心、跨文化交流，并推动积极的社会改变。我们组织活动、运营社会创新网络，并每周发布双语通讯 《Curation²》。

🔗 官网 & 通讯订阅： https://csquared-collective.com/

音乐：Megan Tan
 视觉：Cindy Zhang

What does it mean to build something massive, precise, and powerful—while rebuilding your own sense of belonging?

In this episode of Liminal Space, host Susan Su and co-host Matt Lu talk with Julia Meyn, a naval engineer from Texas now working in Jiangyin, China. Julia shares her journey into the world of shipbuilding, from feeling like an outsider in her engineering program to forging a place for herself in China’s high-speed maritime industry.

We explore what it’s like to live and work in a small industrial town as a young foreign woman, the cultural differences that show up on factory floors, and how China's shipyards are quietly leading the global push for cleaner, more efficient vessels. Julia reflects on daily life in Jiangyin, the slow evolution of tech in the maritime world, and the personal growth that comes with stepping far outside your comfort zone. It’s a conversation about metal, memory, and making it work—one conversation, one weld, one word at a time.

Takeaways:

• Julia's journey to shipbuilding began with a passion for languages and cultures.
• She felt out of place in college due to her lack of a familial connection to shipbuilding.
• China's shipbuilding industry is massive and global, with a focus on efficiency.
• Surveying in the maritime industry involves verifying compliance with safety standards.
• Julia's first impressions of Jiangyin were shaped by her experiences in Shanghai.
• Finding community in a small town can be challenging, but Julia adapted by expanding her social circles.
• China's shipyards are capable of building 40 ships a year, showcasing their efficiency.
• The maritime industry is slow to adapt to new technologies, but there is a push for greener practices.
• Ship owners play a crucial role in commissioning ships, often opting for foreign classification societies.
• Innovative designs, like wind sails, are being explored to enhance ship efficiency. Implementing novel technology in shipbuilding is challenging.
• Daily interactions involve navigating language barriers and cultural differences.
• Experience in China accelerates learning and skill development.
• Building relationships with local stakeholders is crucial.
• The shipbuilding industry offers diverse daily tasks and challenges.
• Cultural integration involves understanding social dynamics and expectations.
• Embracing change can lead to personal growth and new opportunities.
• Learning a new language enhances communication and connection.
• The importance of patience and observation in a foreign work environment.
• Future career paths may differ significantly from current experiences.

Chapters:
02:02 Julia Meyn: A Unique Journey in Shipbuilding
02:50 The Intersection of Cultures: Julia's Background and Interests
06:00 Navigating the Maritime Industry: Julia's College Experience
07:02 Surveying in Shipbuilding: Julia's Current Role
09:47 The Decision to Move to China: Opportunities and Challenges
14:33 First Impressions of Jiangyin: Adapting to Small Town Life
17:26 Building Community: Finding Connections in Jiangyin
20:18 Shipbuilding in China: Efficiency and Scale
25:33 Comparing American and Chinese Shipbuilding Practices
29:03 Environmental Sustainability in Maritime: The Shift to LNG
31:15 Global Shipping Dynamics: Ownership and Production
32:41 Navigating Classification Societies
33:59 The Role of Third-Party Inspectors
36:44 Building Relationships in Ship Construction
38:07 Innovative Ship Design: Wind Sails
42:27 Cultural Attitudes Towards New Technology
45:04 Daily Life as a Maritime Engineer in China
51:49 Lessons Learned in Two Years of Experience
56:15 Navigating New Construction Challenges
58:22 Future Aspirations and Career Growth
01:02:33 Social Challenges in a Small Town
01:11:30 Embracing Change and Overcoming Fear
01:15:40 Recommendations and Reflections

Julia's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/julia-meyn-480326185/
Julia's Email: [email protected]

This podcast is brought to you by C^2 Collective, a multicultural nonprofit community empowering young people across China and beyond to think curiously, connect across cultures, and create positive change. We host events, run a social innovation network, and publish the Curation^2 newsletter @ https://csquared-collective.com/

Video Format on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NftknUfexXY&t=329s&ab_channel=LiminalSpacePodcast

Music by Megan Tan
Art by Cindy Zhang

播客简介（中文） 《从德州到江阴：一位造船工程师的中国故事》 

在建造一艘庞大、精密、强大的船只的同时，如何重新构建自己的归属感？

在本期《Liminal Space》中，主持人 Susan Su 与联合主持人 Matthew Lu 对话Julia Meyn——一位来自美国德克萨斯州、现居中国江阴的海事工程师。Julia 分享了她进入船舶制造行业的独特旅程，从大学期间在工程专业感到格格不入，到如今在中国这个高速发展的造船强国中找到自己的定位。

本期节目聚焦于：作为一名年轻的外国女性，在中国小城市生活与工作的真实体验；在船厂的日常中，如何面对文化差异与语言障碍；以及中国造船业如何在全球范围内引领高效、绿色转型。Julia 也反思了江阴的生活节奏、海事行业的技术变革，以及身处陌生环境中所带来的个人成长。

这是一次关于钢铁、记忆与适应力的对话——每一次交谈、每一道焊缝、每一个词语，都是她造船也造人生的旅程。

重点摘录

• Julia 进入船舶行业的初心来自于对语言与文化的热爱
• 大学期间，她因缺乏家族背景而在工程专业感到孤独
• 中国造船业规模庞大、全球领先，效率极高
• 海事“检验”工作涉及对安全规范的全面审核
• Julia 对江阴的第一印象深受在上海生活经历的影响
• 在小城市建立社交网络虽然困难，但她逐步拓展了自己的朋友圈
• 一家中国船厂一年可建造多达 40 艘船，效率惊人
• 船舶行业技术更新缓慢，但正逐步向环保能源（如 LNG）靠拢
• 许多船东仍倾向选择国外船级社进行认证
• 像“风帆”这样的创新设计正被探索以提高船舶能效
• 新技术在船舶制造领域的落地难度很大
• 日常工作中要不断跨越语言与文化的鸿沟
• 在中国工作极大加快了学习曲线与专业成长
• 与本地相关方的关系建立至关重要
• 造船行业每天面对的任务丰富且挑战多变
• 融入当地文化需要理解复杂的社会互动规则
• 接纳变化是走向成长与机会的关键一步
• 学习语言能有效提升沟通效率与人际连结
• 在异国职场中，耐心与观察是非常重要的能力
• 未来的职业路径或将与当前截然不同

节目章节

来宾资料 & 出品机构

Julia 的 LinkedIn 简历:
 https://www.linkedin.com/in/julia-meyn-480326185/
Julia电子邮件: [email protected]

本播客由 C² Collective 出品
我们是一个多元文化非营利社群，致力于赋能中国及全球的年轻人——鼓励他们以好奇心思考、以真实连接、以创造力推动积极改变。我们组织线下活动，推动社会创新项目，并每周发布中英双语的灵感通讯《Curation²》官网可以获得更多信息。

官网：www.csquared-collective.com

封面设计：Cindy Zhang
音乐制作：Megan Tan