Listen and Be Heard Network

What happens when creative expression pushes beyond what the market expects? Martha Cinader revisits her conversation with Dan Sinykin, author of Big Fiction: How Conglomeration Changed the Publishing Industry and American Literature, exploring how corporate ownership shapes publishing, whose stories reach readers, and the choices facing writers today. From query letters and literary gatekeeping to the importance of independent presses and creative community, their conversation offers a wider view of what it means to build a writing life.

In the second half, Jay Rodriguez Sierra shares a rare cassette recording from his time performing with Ray Barretto’s New World Spirit ensemble in France during the 1990s. Introducing the recording with personal recollections, Jay sets the stage for Barretto’s own remarks about musical invention and a live performance that reaches beyond audience expectations of salsa. Poetry, piano, and reflections on Listen & Be Heard’s community roots round out an hour devoted to creative freedom, deep listening, and making room for unexpected voices.

00;00;21;01 – 00;00;29;01
Speaker 1
As the sound enters my inner ear and vibrates through my inner plane, my biosphere.

00;00;29;03 – 00;00;33;24
Speaker 2
Part of me learning to be a better listener of others is learning to listen to myself.

00;00;33;25 – 00;00;44;03
Speaker 3
When we are listen to, truly listen to, you know you can feel when someone’s deeply listening and we feel heard, we are healed in that moment.

00;00;44;04 – 00;00;51;14
Speaker 4
Listen and be heard. Even if your voice shakes without knowing it, you may be saving a stranger.

00;00;51;15 – 00;01;02;14
Speaker 1
Listen and be heard is. I guess, part of why I want to connect with you. Because as soon as you said that, it like stuck quarter myself. Welcome to the Audio.

00;01;02;14 – 00;01;35;05
Speaker 5
Garden where we cultivate our collective wisdom, nurture creativity, and spread love. My name is Martha, Senator, and this is. Listen and be heard. Welcome back to the Audio Garden, my friends. It is so good to have you here today for this very special show with some audio of Ray Barretto that I promise you, you have never heard before.

00;01;35;07 – 00;02;18;17
Speaker 5
And we’re going to take a walk through the audio garden to an interview from last year that’s still very relevant. But first, some poetry.

00;02;18;20 – 00;02;22;06
Speaker 1
With broken your missing ribs.

00;02;22;09 – 00;02;22;28
Speaker 5
But I.

00;02;22;28 – 00;02;27;19
Speaker 6
Know women.

00;02;27;22 – 00;02;30;03
Speaker 6
Not for you. For me.

00;02;30;05 – 00;02;35;05
Speaker 5
Just because that’s what women do. And we’re told it’s.

00;02;35;05 – 00;03;17;15
Speaker 6
Not polite to talk about our bodily reality. The blood to the altered by wine and sex is not a divine reaching. No. The teaching is a commodity, and women see that we be the receivers of misogyny because they need us. I don’t see why that’s a problem, but it is. So we try not to disrupt the lie that we need them, that women need them because we don’t.

00;03;17;18 – 00;04;12;19
Speaker 6
And why should we carry on with this creating of men when they can’t even remember where they came from? Meant for women? Maybe neither one created Earth, but a man no gave birth to any single thing. And yet men would have us believe that we owe them anything, anything at all, without the honor to. So, no, I don’t feel like any sense with you.

00;04;12;21 – 00;04;41;22
Speaker 5
That’s our own Jay Rodriguez Sierra on the piano, and we’re going to hear more from him. And about his long, very long career in music. He’s been playing since he was a child. And he brings to us today a rare recording cassette tape of himself playing with Ray Barretto. And I’m looking forward to listening to that in the second half hour.

00;04;41;25 – 00;05;21;18
Speaker 5
But first, for the writers out there who are trying to wrap their head around the query letter and the publishing industry, we’re going to revisit this conversation to welcome Danson, author of Big Fiction How Conglomeration Changed the Publishing Industry and American Literature, published by Columbia University Press. And I’m really glad I sat in the garden and read this book, and I would recommend it to any writer who wants an expansive understanding of the business of publishing and how we got here.

00;05;21;20 – 00;05;24;20
Speaker 5
Welcome to the Audio Garden. I’m glad to have you here.

00;05;24;21 – 00;05;26;12
Speaker 7
It’s my pleasure.

00;05;26;15 – 00;05;27;18
Speaker 5
Big fiction.

00;05;27;18 – 00;05;28;03
Speaker 7
Is.

00;05;28;09 – 00;05;29;17
Speaker 8
About how.

00;05;29;19 – 00;05;35;05
Speaker 5
Conglomeration changed the publishing industry and American literature.

00;05;35;05 – 00;06;03;16
Speaker 8
And I think the book really, for me as a writer who’s actually going through the process right now of querying publishers and so on for a second unpublished novel, it’s really made me deeply understand the present publishing industry. So I wondered if you could talk just from the point of view of a writer, how conglomeration is sitting on that page, that query letter.

00;06;03;16 – 00;06;20;20
Speaker 8
They’re writing the 1 or 2 pages where they have to make a pitch, they have to choose, you know, tell these people, do their writing in, point out some comparable titles, and then somehow make that sound marketable?

00;06;20;22 – 00;06;45;11
Speaker 7
Yeah. If you’re querying today as an author and what you’re facing in terms of the publishing industry is drastically different than it was several decades ago. And that’s really the story that my book tells. So if you were writing back in the 1960s and you wanted to get in touch with an editor for one, you could just write to a publishing house.

00;06;45;11 – 00;07;08;16
Speaker 7
So Cormac McCarthy sent his manuscript for his first novel in to Random House directly, and they ended up publishing it. He’d gotten the hands of an editor who liked it. Now, obviously you can’t do that anymore, because sometime in the subsequent decades, these publishing houses, which were at the time relatively small, relatively independent, they were often owned by the founders of the heirs of the founders.

00;07;08;17 – 00;07;31;17
Speaker 7
There were a little bit more flexible in how they ran their business operations, and the kind of books they might take or not take. But starting in, especially in the 1970s, large conglomerates, there are companies that hold multiple companies within them, often from different sectors of the industry at once. So RCA, this was one of the first ones that happened.

00;07;31;19 – 00;08;10;25
Speaker 7
RCA, which was a big television producing company and military industrial complex company, bought random House in 1965. Penguin random House is now the world’s largest trade publisher, so in the 1950s it had something like 200 250 employees. Today it has 10,000 employees. So you’re just looking at a radically different scale of industry. And from having dozens and dozens of publishers you might go to now, 80% of trade publishing is controlled by five large conglomerates, several of which are owned by parent companies outside the US.

00;08;10;28 – 00;08;39;29
Speaker 7
So those big five dominate so much of the resources and the attention economy within publishing today. Then outside of that 80%, there’s still a very robust and lively 20% of the industry that is smaller, either independent or nonprofit publishing. And much of how a literary agent is going to read your query letter is shaped based on this structure of how the industry operates.

00;08;40;03 – 00;09;11;08
Speaker 7
So the big five are really dominated by demands for quarterly growth. And these pressures come from the C-suite on down and trickle through the companies into the editors. Now, editors have a certain amount of autonomy within constraints of the decisions they can make. But those constraints are serious, and it also depends on which imprint. There are dozens and dozens of imprints at each of the Big Five, and each imprint has its own kind of specialty in its own purview.

00;09;11;08 – 00;09;22;29
Speaker 7
And the editors at those imprints might be more commercial. They might be a little more literary. But all of the imprints at a big five company are going to have pressure to sell books.

00;09;23;05 – 00;09;45;22
Speaker 8
You point out that writers, if there is a, you know, an anti-hero in this book, it would be a writer who thinks that there are actually, you know, just a creative individual on their own who’s the genius in all these things. So maybe we could get a little deeper into how, like, a writer would then think about themselves in this landscape.

00;09;45;23 – 00;10;13;12
Speaker 7
One thing that my book really tries to emphasize as an argument is how conglomeration has changed what it means to be a literary author. There are certain ideas about authors and authorship that we as a culture are really deeply and profoundly attached to, and the publishing industry has reason to want us to continue to be attached to these ideas, these romantic ideas about authorial genius.

00;10;13;14 – 00;10;38;12
Speaker 7
And the French sociologist Pierre Bourdieu calls an uncreated creator someone just writing all on their own, coming up with these ideas at their writing desk in a cabin in the woods or something like that. You know, this years that I spent investigating how publishing works today taught me that that’s really a myth. That’s really a kind of fantasy that we love, but isn’t particularly true.

00;10;38;15 – 00;11;20;01
Speaker 7
Increasingly, authors are one part of a professionalized world. Writing is becoming increasingly professional in the United States since the 1990s, and the MFA, the creative writing program, became institutionalized and offered a path towards a professional career as a writer. And every step you take along that path towards a career is set up within certain hierarchies of prestige, and so you’re much more likely to find success if you’re born into a wealthy zip code, are able to go be one of the few who goes to an Ivy League undergrad, manages then to get into Iowa Writers Workshop, then your path.

00;11;20;01 – 00;11;49;19
Speaker 7
Even then, you’re not guaranteed to have literary success, but your odds are vastly superior to those of other folks. And so the entire nature of of being an author today is structured along odds. And those odds are dependent so much on social networks, on credentials. And that also means that authors are products in part of these networks.

00;11;49;22 – 00;12;17;20
Speaker 7
It was a Monday in late February 1990, the coldest day of the year. Andre Shiffrin, a natty 54 year old New Yorker, left random House headquarters in Midtown, deplored through the evening crowds, wind blew down from the Hudson River, tossing his graying red hair, stinging his wide set, mousy eyes, he shivered and pulled his overcoat tighter around himself, heading home to his wife.

00;12;17;23 – 00;12;48;25
Speaker 7
He had just been fired. For 28 years he had worked at pantheon, which his father co-founded and later sold to random House. This younger Shiffrin became pantheons editorial director. He petitioned random House for autonomy, and its executives granted it. He extended his father’s cosmopolitan vision, bringing European ideas to the United States. He published John Berger’s G. Cortazar, hopscotch, Marguerite Duras The Lover Hunter, grasses, The Tin Drum.

00;12;49;03 – 00;13;19;09
Speaker 7
He published leftist writers Barbara Ehrenreich, Michel Foucault, Ralph Nader, Edward Said, Studs Terkel, E.P. Thompson, who wrote History and theory imagined through the experiences of ordinary people. Shiffrin fancied himself a bit of a subversive after his daughters encouraged him to acquire his FBI file, which noted a trip of his to Cuba and his protests against the Vietnam War, he wrote a jocular essay for The New York Times suggesting that the Bureau’s surveillance adds some dignity and meaning to our efforts.

00;13;19;12 – 00;13;47;16
Speaker 7
To those who fear that no one has paid any attention, by all means, let us pay for more scissors and paste, more files and more agents. How nice to know that someone outside the family will clip our every word. Rumor of Shiffrin firing caught the wind which carried it through the city. A notice appeared in the next day’s times and spurred the kind of convergence of energies that we recognize in retrospect, as an event in coming days, pantheons editorial staff quit en masse.

00;13;47;18 – 00;14;09;17
Speaker 7
Opinion pieces were written, protests were held in one way or another. This event touched everyone in the book world. The firing of Andre Shiffrin revealed that a monumental shift had taken place, one that had begun 30 years earlier, that everyone had watched unfold in slow motion, had tried some of them in fits and starts to stop. But no one, not even the old giants, could stop it now.

00;14;09;20 – 00;14;18;10
Speaker 7
It would pull everyone into its vortex, dominating the creation of literature for the next 30 years and more.

00;14;18;12 – 00;14;25;13
Speaker 9
I’m Tony Robles, co-host of Listen and Be Heard. This is Listen and Be Heard radio.

00;14;25;16 – 00;14;27;24
Speaker 8
You talk about beloved.

00;14;28;00 – 00;15;03;21
Speaker 5
Is. Also about breaking away from publishing the publishing world as a as Toni Morrison said, it was her job, not her career at the time. You quote in the book, you also bring that to the work of Stephen King. What does this mean as a as a writer when you’re trying to actually satisfy? You know, you mention all these different titles in near the end of the book of, you know, there’s these sales managers, there’s the this manager that that person, and they’re all trying to get down to what is going to be the bottom line.

00;15;03;24 – 00;15;09;12
Speaker 5
And you as a writer, you’re really not trying to think about the bottom line like that.

00;15;09;14 – 00;15;33;25
Speaker 7
Yeah, no. Toni Morrison and Stephen King are both particularly self-aware writers about the role that allegory plays in their work. Toni Morrison Many people don’t know this, but she spent 1516 years working as an editor at random House, and in the preface to beloved, she writes that she was able to write beloved. Her beloved kind of came to her, she says.

00;15;33;27 – 00;15;54;15
Speaker 7
Beloved entered when she quit her job at random House, and she suddenly had this feeling of being free. And it allowed her to think about freedom, which is obviously at the core of a novel about slavery in beloved. And there’s ways in which she’s working through her 1516 years in the publishing industry as an employee in the publishing industry.

00;15;54;16 – 00;16;22;16
Speaker 7
In that novel, Stephen King in his novels, is always he’s worried about the fact that he’s become a brand, that he’s just become literary content. And people lose track of the idea that he’s a human artist who’s trying to be true to himself inside of that brand, and he writes novel after novel in the 80s and 90s, about an individual artist threatened with being annihilated by the overpowering mechanisms of corporations or the source of brands.

00;16;22;16 – 00;16;40;12
Speaker 7
So those things they were aware of. But I don’t know that it’s good for writers to be aware of that most of the time. One of the things that writers have to be able to do to succeed is they have to be able to channel the unconscious, they have to be able to channel the personal and the collective unconscious.

00;16;40;12 – 00;17;04;01
Speaker 7
And what that means, how that looks is different for every single writer. But I think more often than not, it doesn’t mean trying to be aware of the fact that certain things are going to get channeled through you anyway. You might end up writing allegories for the world in which you’re writing. In fact, there’s a pretty good chance you will, because in order to succeed at writing, you’re, if you’re committed, writer.

00;17;04;03 – 00;17;19;03
Speaker 7
The sociological factors of writing are deeply built into the structure of your mind. So those things would play out when you write, when you allow yourself to become a vessel, that those things would come through you. There’s nothing surprising about that.

00;17;19;07 – 00;17;59;20
Speaker 5
I think that is exactly how I was feeling and what I was pointing to when I started this conversation about feeling like, this is a great guy, because it did actually lead me in my own work to think about, just kind of understand the landscape and not have unrealistic expectations, which kind of leads me to, you know, what you hinted at, which is that, of course, whether it was corporate or conglomerate, and I would even argue, you know, a lot of the not for profit still persisted in the universities in being extremely white, male oriented.

00;17;59;23 – 00;18;29;28
Speaker 5
But the publishing as a whole seems to be moving towards multiculturalism. And you point in your conclusion to that, maybe including a more global way of looking at, you know, like global literature that were actually pretty provincial here in America, in publishing American literature and not looking at the broader scale of things. So I’m not sure if there was a question.

00;18;30;01 – 00;18;33;12
Speaker 5
Maybe you want to make a comment. Sure, sure.

00;18;33;14 – 00;18;56;17
Speaker 7
My friend and colleague Richard Jean so has done really important work on getting the numbers in terms of race and ethnicity in the history of American publishing at the conglomerates. And he showed that even in the 1990s as period where there was a lot of talk about literature becoming multicultural, if you actually look at the numbers of who is published, it remained a very, very white industry.

00;18;56;20 – 00;19;29;09
Speaker 7
It was just that a few names were getting a lot of attention. Your Leslie Marmon Silko or your Toni Morrison or your Sandra Cisneros or your Amy Tan. We’re we’re getting attention, which was very good. But that wasn’t changing the overall representation of who was being published. Now, Richard and I did a subsequent analysis just from the last few years where we tried to see if publishers were earnest in 2020, the summer of 2020, during the enormous Black Lives Matter protests about actually trying to diversify their publishing lists.

00;19;29;09 – 00;19;51;26
Speaker 7
And we found that they actually made a lot of ground. They’re still far from being representative of the actual diversity of this country, but they more than doubled their representation of nonwhite writers. Nonwhite writers went from being about 11% of the lists at conglomerate publishers. In terms of fiction, I’m just talking about fiction right now, and they went from 11% to 25%.

00;19;51;26 – 00;20;24;27
Speaker 7
So they more than doubled their share of nonwhite writers in four years from 2020 to 2024. Now, this is good not just for the sheer numbers of it. It’s also good for this question of and for what kind of books nonwhite writers can write, because nonwhite writers have been confined to very particular genres for a long time, they’ve been highly encouraged and incentivized to write, say, historical, multicultural family epics where they’re investigating historical trauma, often in a sort of quasi anthropological way.

00;20;24;29 – 00;20;45;24
Speaker 7
You know, there’s a reason why we see the same kinds of stories from nonwhite writers over and over again, from commercial presses, commercial presses want to publish, and that’s what they ask for. That’s what they invite. That’s what they choose. But in the last few years, with this proliferation of of books by nonwhite writers, we’ve seen them in traditional white was like the campus novel or the rock and roll novel.

00;20;45;25 – 00;20;56;25
Speaker 7
The question now is whether or not we’re going to see a backlash to that. And there’s a lot of signs to suggest that we are, and that the industry might be moving back to the status quo. In terms of whiteness.

00;20;57;02 – 00;21;18;01
Speaker 5
You say we’re still in this conglomeration, this time of conglomerate publishing. What does it look like to you like in the future? You know, if a writer takes on that risk, they still have to be smarter then about marketing and distribution and the whole works of it, if they hope to at least make their money back.

00;21;18;03 – 00;21;50;01
Speaker 7
Yeah. I mean, it’s an incredibly we’re in a period where so many more people want to write actually, then want to read. And so it becomes really, really difficult to succeed as a writer because we’ve got this problem of abundance. There is just an incredible outpouring of writing. So if you’re an individual, a single person who’s written a book and you want to get people’s eyes on your book, it’s really hard and you have an array of options has, as you mentioned, you could go with self-publishing, you could go with a hybrid publisher.

00;21;50;07 – 00;22;11;16
Speaker 7
You could try to go with a small, independent or nonprofit, not all of whom need agents. There are like Hub City, Sarah Band. They are great small nonprofit presses that have open submission periods where unaccented writers can submit directly to the presses, or you can go with the literary agent and see if they can help you place their work.

00;22;11;17 – 00;22;37;03
Speaker 7
Now, all of these are going to produce very different challenges and require very different kinds of strategy. What I would say to try to, you know, one thing that you can do, no matter which of these strategies you want to pursue, and I think the best way to live as a writer is to try to build and develop your own sense of organic, creative, artistic and intellectual community where you are.

00;22;37;05 – 00;22;53;24
Speaker 7
You should be a reader, you should read a lot, and you should try to figure out what connection there are between the people you read. If you read a magazine, see who the editor is there, see who that editor is acquiring. See who those writers are. Start to follow those writers. See who they’re reading. Start to connect with folks.

00;22;53;28 – 00;23;12;27
Speaker 7
You can write to someone who writes a story that you like and send them a note saying you like it. Almost any writer is going to be happy to receive a note saying that that you that someone enjoyed their work, start to build your own community of people who you read and who might in turn read you because you’ve got a certain kind of elective affinity.

00;23;12;29 – 00;23;32;07
Speaker 7
You share a same esthetic, and that way you’ll actually know the editors who you ideally would like to publish with. You can start to pay attention to who are the literary agents, who are representing the writers who I like to read. Those are the literary agents who should be on the top of my list, who might want to represent me, really?

00;23;32;08 – 00;23;54;08
Speaker 7
Any of us who are writers? If you’re not in the .00 1%, you’re not going to get read by tens of thousands, let alone hundreds of thousands of people. A great success for almost any of us is to be read by several hundred, maybe at the best, several thousand people. And you can start to find those people by building your community organically on the ground where you are today.

00;23;54;10 – 00;24;02;16
Speaker 7
Then when you write, you try to write for that community. And a several hundred people in that community are reading you, then I think you’re living a beautiful esthetic life.

00;24;02;22 – 00;24;10;10
Speaker 5
All right. Thank you very much. How can people learn more about you? Get in touch by your book. Correspond with you about the book?

00;24;10;14 – 00;24;30;24
Speaker 7
Yeah, sure. So I would encourage anyone to go to your local bookstore if they don’t carry the book at the moment, some still do. Can ask them to specialist order it for you. I really think supporting our local independent bookstores is vital right now. You can also find me. You can find my email address at Emory’s English Department website.

00;24;30;24 – 00;24;38;12
Speaker 7
And I would welcome email messages. And I’m also on social media increasingly more often on blue Sky than X these days.

00;24;38;13 – 00;24;41;24
Speaker 5
Thank you very much, Dan. It’s been a pleasure.

00;24;41;25 – 00;24;44;03
Speaker 7
Thanks so much for having me.

00;24;44;06 – 00;25;21;05
Speaker 5
This is the listen and be heard. Our my name is Martha Senator, and we were revisiting a conversation I had with Dan Cynical in season two actually of the listen and be heard. Our all of our archives are [email protected] and the listen and Be Heard network is a project of sound system culture. We come to you absolutely commercial free, and we’re happy to offer this programing for free.

00;25;21;05 – 00;25;48;27
Speaker 5
But we do appreciate your support. If you believe in what we’re doing and would like to see us continue. And you could go to listen and be heard.net and follow the links to support. If you would like to do that in financially, or if you would like to donate or doing an equipment drive right now for our upcoming spring internship.

00;25;49;00 – 00;26;16;04
Speaker 5
Last year, we were able to give our interns refurbished computers that they could do video and audio editing on, and we hope to be able to do that again this year. So there’s many ways that you can participate with your time, with your finances, with your equipment that you might not be using. And you feel like a young person striving to do something great could put to good use.

00;26;16;10 – 00;26;30;17
Speaker 5
So please think about that and visit us. Come listen and come be heard to. There’s ways to submit your poetry, your thoughts, your interviews, and we welcome all those types of queries.

00;26;30;17 – 00;27;03;11
Speaker 1
I see a a word, a cold, hard word, frozen forever with meaning more, much more than what each letter stands for on paper, pushed around by people with pens, their swords delivering a thousand cuts to a dream deferred. A dream to murder, a dream dreams by a woman who became friends. According to art and art that will cost her life and limb.

00;27;03;11 – 00;27;45;15
Speaker 1
For the sin of ignoring borders and not paying tariffs on her journey as woman on earth. Giving birth without a certificate, knowing hot blood in their veins is the total sum of her worth. So there are enforcers, so there are customs and traditions and taxes, and there sedition too. And instigation. Inflammation of rhetoric. And she’s a heretic, hiding in a cave, singing her song until they drag her away and lie about what she had to say.

00;27;45;17 – 00;28;01;16
Speaker 1
Because they don’t play or sing or anything. Just point and shoot. And there’s loot. If you follow the money and laugh like it’s funny.

00;28;01;19 – 00;28;24;26
Speaker 10
Yes, I would like to read richness for you. Yes. So when you feel like it’s crumbling, you got yourself. When you feel like the sky is turning, you got yourself. When you lose what was yours. And when you bypass, you got yourself. And maybe that is the ultimate richness that you got yourself like you have yourself. What else do you need?

00;28;24;29 – 00;28;46;17
Speaker 10
What else do you I mean, that’s true. That’s so true. What else do you need? End of the day, you got yourself. If you know something, you know you can rebuild in some capacity getting help from people. Or when you are resilient, you know you can build, rebuild, networking. Finding opportunities are like working on the skill that you like to grow.

00;28;46;20 – 00;28;49;21
Speaker 10
Yes. I mean, that essentially came from a place of me.

00;28;49;23 – 00;28;52;04
Speaker 5
Listen to the sounds of the.

00;28;52;06 – 00;28;53;11
Speaker 10
Recording from my.

00;28;53;13 – 00;28;54;21
Speaker 1
And.

00;28;54;23 – 00;28;55;26
Speaker 10
My accident, my.

00;28;55;29 – 00;28;56;06
Speaker 5
On.

00;28;56;06 – 00;28;56;14
Speaker 1
The other.

00;28;56;14 – 00;28;58;05
Speaker 10
Side all these years. So I was.

00;28;58;05 – 00;28;58;13
Speaker 1
Like.

00;28;58;16 – 00;28;59;06
Speaker 5
In a minute.

00;28;59;06 – 00;29;00;07
Speaker 10
Or two.

00;29;00;09 – 00;29;32;24
Speaker 9
Listen and be heard is radio program that’s part of the Pacifica Radio Network. We focus on writers of all poetry, children’s memoir, fiction, creative nonfiction, and now we’re taking on a lot of other elements addressing concerns of indigenous communities, music. And it just just runs the gamut of everything that nourishes the soul. In fact, I’ve been involved as one of the hosts co-host, have some interviews coming up fairly soon in the next couple of weeks.

00;29;32;24 – 00;29;41;00
Speaker 9
So it’s something that I really enjoy. It’s got a whole lot of pleasure and it’s something that’s very passionate about, and I’m glad that it’s here.

00;29;41;02 – 00;30;24;05
Speaker 11
Hey, how are you doing? You’re really here for listening to be heard our own, right? We always got some great stuff for you. Thank you. Martha, Senator, for all you do. And thank you to all of you for the support that we keep on getting. This is LDH. Listen and be heard. Network. All right. Now get get to it.

00;30;24;05 – 00;30;47;12
Speaker 11
I have a very rare, rare, rare recording of the great friend and master and bandleader of my many years ago, the great Ray Barretto. We were in France, and one of the things that he mentioned at the time, which was very important, one of the things that occurred to Ray a lot throughout his lifetime as a composer and as a player and as an innovator and a visionary.

00;30;47;18 – 00;31;19;13
Speaker 11
People don’t realize, of course, he played with Byrd. He had this amazing history, was that he’s always pushing the envelope. And so this is the one of those, I think one of the first tours of the, New World spirit, which he called the New World Spirit Ensemble, featuring myself and Ray Vega, Satoshi Takashi on drums, Hydro Moreno, actor Martin Yon in Europe and some people very happy, really love what we were doing, but people wanted to hear a lot of those classic salsa stuff he’s really well known for.

00;31;19;18 – 00;31;37;20
Speaker 11
He’s a legendary Latino musician, conga player. And bandleader. But he was always pushing the envelope. And I’ve heard the story over and over from Gil Goldstein, who was one of my composition teachers in college, that he played with him back then, said the same thing he was playing with. I think I had John McLaughlin playing with them, and they were playing.

00;31;37;21 – 00;32;00;13
Speaker 11
He was experimenting with fusion, and all the people who came out to dance were [censored] off anyway. So anyway, he went in France and here it is, and we’re about to close the concert somewhere in France. And he’s explaining why why it’s important for him to do what he does. And I think it’s very great to have to hear his voice explaining exactly what I just spoke of.

00;32;00;15 – 00;32;22;23
Speaker 11
And then we ended with a piece called Aqua Blue, written by Moreno. The bassist really hit it and dedication to our brothers and sisters from World and Loop and Martinique. So it has that flavor. Check it out. Back in the 90s, Ray Barretto always here listen to be heard. Donate. You’re going to get some stuff here that you won’t hear anywhere else.

00;32;22;25 – 00;33;42;18
Speaker 11
Peace out.

00;33;42;20 – 00;33;53;12
Speaker 12
What? You see my class? Yes.

00;33;53;14 – 00;34;09;20
Speaker 12
On a I sergeant. Esperando kaiser’s otro tipo de musica mas mas. Pocket tones. Momentos. Terminal. Favor.

00;34;09;23 – 00;34;35;07
Speaker 12
A yo tengo de salsa ESA three. Cuatro. Trumpeter three. Cantante esto two. Tipo de musica. Esta musica es part de la nueva Honda. Porque to maximize psycho’s the.

00;34;35;10 – 00;35;09;15
Speaker 12
Pisces and a causa Como un case. La casa de crear un musica inventive creative nueva. Pero siempre qué tengah el sabor Afro-Caribbean. Entonces nosotros estamos haciendo. ESO es el grupo parte de nuevo movimiento. ASI es yo Como.

00;35;09;17 – 00;35;51;07
Speaker 12
Sino ahora corazones sus obidos para poder un poco Thomas y el centro Thomas mas musica. Porque después de todo la musica esta muy buena y muy Rosa. Estamos por de presenta auteur de acy. Gracias por eso attention por su carino. Espero q on el futuro Sierra. Tengo el audio para nueva musica. Porque sin el musical creative la musica.

00;35;51;10 – 00;36;06;10
Speaker 12
Ahora participated con nosotros asi. Gracias a vez mas. Vamos a tocar inspiration.

00;36;06;12 – 00;45;00;28
Speaker 12
Cada vez Q nosotros a Francia. Siempre nos. Los corazones pero not Los dos oh three Q. No pining. Educacion por lo mellow de Los otros vivir. La musica yo dono también.

00;45;01;01 – 00;48;18;13
Speaker 5
This is the listen and be heard our brought to you by listen and be heard network a project of sound system culture.

00;48;18;15 – 00;48;21;28
Speaker 13
Do you hear that raw live.

00;48;21;29 – 00;48;25;27
Speaker 5
To energy. That fact that.

00;48;25;27 – 00;48;26;15
Speaker 1
What you.

00;48;26;16 – 00;48;27;11
Speaker 5
Were listening.

00;48;27;12 – 00;48;27;24
Speaker 1
To.

00;48;27;27 – 00;48;28;21
Speaker 5
Is from a.

00;48;28;22 – 00;48;31;13
Speaker 13
Cassette that I.

00;48;31;15 – 00;48;34;00
Speaker 5
Handed to a younger Jay.

00;48;34;00 – 00;48;35;17
Speaker 13
Rodriguez as.

00;48;35;19 – 00;49;11;27
Speaker 5
One of the participants in this amazing appearance of Ray Barretto, I guarantee you, you have not heard this recording anywhere else, but right here on the listen and be heard. Our. I’m proud to say and thank you to Jay Rodriguez Sierra for bringing that to us here in the Audio Garden. And you can hear how much the people there appreciated what they heard as well.

00;49;12;00 – 00;49;50;02
Speaker 5
And I hope that you appreciate this hour, this time that we spend together every week here in the audio garden. My name is Martha, Senator, and you’ve been listening to the listen and be heard our which is brought to you by listen and be heard network and listen to be heard has a history going back all the way to the 1990s in the East Village of New York, when it began as an open mic event, there was really much more than just an open mic happening there.

00;49;50;02 – 00;50;51;23
Speaker 5
There was a weekly improvised, a radio soap opera called Mission of Love that everybody was kind of requested or not required, I won’t say required to participate in. And there was live music and improvization between poets and musicians, and it was a crazy, wonderful time in New York. And listen to Be Heard also existed in the Bay area as a weekly newspaper and as a poetry cafe, and as a popular open mic event, and we hosted many several poetry marathons, sometimes for political reasons, like in opposition to liquefied natural gas plant that Shell Bechtel wanted to put right there in the bay at the time that I was living out there.

00;50;51;26 – 00;51;31;23
Speaker 5
And now our latest iteration as a podcast and syndicated radio show on the Pacific Affiliate Network, and we are commercial free and committed to remaining that way, as well as to providing the programing for free. And with that comes freedom of speech, freedom of expression, and freedom to be happy in the audio garden. How about that? Please visit us.

00;51;31;24 – 00;52;15;01
Speaker 5
Please visit me here in the Audio Garden by going to listen and be her.net, where you’ll find extensive archives, a reading list you can read bios of all the guests we’ve had in these past four seasons. I have contributors to the show as well, like Tony Robles and Ni Rivera, Kim McMillan, just to name a few. And then there’s our columnist from back in the Bay area days, Mitos to San, who gives us wonderful columns about authors in the Philippines where she is located, and as well most of the authors who she speaks to.

00;52;15;02 – 00;53;03;03
Speaker 5
But they they do get around those authors and show up in places like Frankfurt and other cities that have book festivals. So please visit us and read me column. And we also have Elizabeth Perlman, who you’ve heard on the Listen to Be Heard network at Listen and Be Her net. And it’s called the Intuitive Writing Podcast. She does wonderful work with young women and also wrote a book about how to tap into your intuitive ability to write and express yourself, which is what we are all about here at Listen and Be her network.

00;53;03;05 – 00;53;49;10
Speaker 5
And with networking, there’s also crossover. We have a Ursula from the Pacifica affiliate network, has a column currently at Listen to be heard about her experience visiting the Ukraine, and a mural project that she initiated and completed there in the middle of the ongoing war that’s happening right before the half hour break, we heard a little bit from an Indian poet, a young woman named sweetheart, and our intern, Jamia Jones spoke with her this past week.

00;53;49;10 – 00;54;21;08
Speaker 5
So we’ll be bringing you some of that interview, as well as another interview from the Filipino International Book Festival that happened in San Francisco a few weeks ago that we were not able to include in our original coverage. But if you’re curious about all of that, you can also find the full interviews with everybody. That was an empty her net.

00;54;21;11 – 00;54;43;09
Speaker 5
I want to thank you so much for spending this time with me here in the Audio Garden. It goes by so quickly, you know, if you can’t wait until next week, then come on over to wlh.org and hit the play button. Are you join us.

00;54;43;11 – 00;55;14;18
Speaker 6
Listen to him. Do you get where I’m coming from? Can you see my point of view? Do you care? Do you dare let go of what you think, what you thought, what you what are. Because you have been listening. And now you only hear what you already heard before. You prefer to ignore any indications, explanations. Sophistication, elevation, higher planes of contemplation and just stick with facts.

00;55;14;22 – 00;55;39;01
Speaker 6
You already think you heard the words that came first, but you didn’t know. You didn’t have a thirst for the truth just to need to be needed or want to be wanted. The clean medical stuff and you heard what you thinking, but you didn’t say it and you didn’t pray to get ahead or rise or fall below. Or ask if you could know or care.

00;55;39;03 – 00;55;58;10
Speaker 6
If you care or dare to listen to the earth to open, to be seen. Holding the listening, the christening.

00;55;58;13 – 00;56;36;28
Speaker 5
Thanks as always to Davion. Dial at WP m Radio in Asheville, North Carolina for introducing listen to be heard to the broadcast airwaves. Casey in Taos, New Mexico k e in San Antonio, Texas KHOI in Ames, Iowa, and K-4 in Red bluff, California and other stations that are part of the Pacifica affiliate network for cultivating the audio garden in your communities and our own listen and be heard network host of wlv.org.

00;56;37;00 – 00;57;00;12
Speaker 5
Please visit us at listen and.net and sign up for our email newsletter and at our Listen and Be Heard YouTube channel, where you will find unedited video interviews of our featured guests. My name is Martha Senator, and I want to thank you for listening and giving me the opportunity to be heard.

Dan Sinykin is an assistant professor of English at Emory University with a courtesy appointment in quantitative theory and methods. He is the author of American Literature and the Long Downturn: Neoliberal Apocalypse (2020). His writing has appeared in the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Los Angeles Review of Books, The Rumpus, Dissent, and other…

Martha Cinader is a poet and author living in Harlem, NY. Her young adult novel, Marq and the Queen Fish, is forthcoming in 2026 from Atmosphere Press. Cinader is the founder and Director of the Listen & Be Heard Network, where she hosts and produces The Listen & Be Heard Hour, and Beyond Borders, both non-commercial podcasts and syndicated radio shows…

Hernán Ramiro Rodriguez Sierra – Musician, Composer, Producer

Living It! is Martha Cinader’s debut as the producer of her own album, and features an eclectic array of arrangements and musical styles. It was recorded in part in a studio in New York City, part in a studio in Hamburg, and part live at the Mojo Club in Hamburg, throw in some bonus tracks…

Dan Sinykin – Big Fiction. In the late 1950s, Random House editor Jason Epstein would talk jazz with Ralph Ellison or chat with Andy Warhol while pouring drinks in his office. By the 1970s, editors were poring over profit-and-loss statements. The electronics company RCA bought Random House in 1965, and then other large corporations purchased…

This book is a vessel/holding liquid for thirsty desirers/in the empty spiral of the universe/where detail is opinion/one moment is all it takes to answer/when the body calls. This book is just one answer in a life of calling. The storyteller lives inside the breath of home. Whatever home is chosen, whatever breath is owned.…

A collection of biographical stories and poems about fascinating people in history whose real dreams made a real difference. Developed in performance, these stories bring old tales to life for contemporary readers in a way that is both entertaining and informative.

CREDITS– CO-HOSTS & PRODUCERS: Martha Cinader, Hernán Ramiro Rodriguez Sierra. FEATURED INTERVIEWS: Dan Sinykin. POETRY: Martha Cinader, Anupa. MUSIC: Ray Barretto Live in France. SOUNDTRACK, MIXING, MASTERING, SOUND DESIGN: Hernán Ramiro Rodriguez Sierra. Executive Producer, Martha Cinader.

Do you want to be heard in the garden? Please consider contributing your audio content. We grow together when we nurture our network. Click here for more information.

The Intuitive Writing Podcast hosted by Elizabeth Perlman

This is an unedited transcript of s1e10 of the Intuitive Writing Podcast. ©2026 The Listen & Be Heard Network. all rights reserved.

00:00:00 – 00:00:29
Hello and welcome to the Intuitive Writing Podcast, production of the Intuitive Writing Project, a writing-based empowerment program for girls and gender expansive youth. We are dedicated to giving young writers a safe, encouraging, non-critical, unconditionally supportive space to write their story, speak their truth, and assert their voice, both as writers and as leaders.

00:00:29 – 00:01:00
For a bit of background, my name is Elizabeth and I created this program 11 years ago, because it’s what I wanted and needed when I was young, a supportive place to be truly seen and heard. That’s why we use the Amherst Writing Method, a radically nurturing and empowering writing methodology I wish everyone learned in grade school. You can read more about the Amherst Method on their website and in Pat Schneider’s groundbreaking book, Writing Alone and With Others.

00:01:00 – 00:01:26
But the basic principles and the ones that guide all of our classes are, number one, everyone is a writer with important stories to tell, number two, everyone has their own unique voice, a voice that needs to be heard, and number three, our voice will grow stronger and clearer the more it is supported and positively affirmed.

00:01:26 – 00:02:01
In our classes, everyone writes together, everyone shares their writing, and then everyone takes turns giving each other grounded, positive feedback. By that, I mean we repeat back and lift up the words, lines, phrases, or concepts that really resonated for us. Since we can’t violate the sanctity of our classes by recording what goes on there, these one-on-one or three-people conversations are designed to provide a little glimpse, a microcosm of what happens in the classroom.

00:02:01 – 00:02:30
You can also read about our org and read our students’ words as they were published on our blog, The Intuitive Voice, with the links below. If you enjoy listening to one young reader read their words and talk about it, imagine how powerful it is when six young writers are reading their words and giving each other positive, affirming feedback. It’s pretty life-changing, and there is a lot more I could say about it, but I’ll let these young writers speak for themselves.

00:02:30 – 00:02:56
On behalf of all the writers at The Intuitive Writing Project, I want to thank you for supporting their voices, for being present and really listening to the wisdom, insight, and brilliance of young people. Today I am so thrilled and excited and honored to be interviewing our very own Josslyn Grover, who has been writing with us for several years and is a profound writer.

00:02:56 – 00:03:23
She’s going to be reading a really exceptional piece that speaks to the Gen Z experience of social media, and I’m so excited for you all to hear it. To start us off, Josslyn, would you introduce yourself, give us your pronouns, your age, how long you’ve been writing with us, and then the fourth thing is a little anecdote about writing when you were younger.

00:03:23 – 00:05:13
Okay, I’m Josslyn Grover, I’m 16, I use she-her pronouns, and I’ve been with The Intuitive Writing Project for roughly three years. I think I’ve been a writer since I could speak, like I before I could even write, I think it’s more than just writer, I feel like storyteller is more what captures my experience with writing, and I would talk to my parents all the time, I would sing little bluesy tunes of The Troubles of Life, and I was like three, and I think I had kind of a soulful connection to writing from a very long time, and anytime in school we would do creative writing, it was always the most fun, and it was always the easiest thing, and it was always like, this is my subject, this is what I do, like I just, in like fifth grade, I was like, this is me, yep, like yeah, this is it, I think like a lot of my teachers would say like, oh Josslyn loves to talk, and she loves to write, and like she likes English, and so I think that that’s always kind of been who I am, and I always loved reading and hearing stories, and so I think just like, I always loved listening to adults talk, I liked all of that, I liked all aspects of listening to stories, telling stories, I just, everything about it fascinated me, and it brought me so much joy, and so I think like I’ve always searched for that, and no matter what I do, I always look for that aspect of life. Storytelling, I love that you own that, because that is, I mean, of course our philosophy is that we are all storytellers because we’re human beings, and at the same time, there are those of us, like yourself and I, who are really, really, really, really passionate about it, and need it to be like what we do in the world.

00:05:13 – 00:06:10
Everyone can tell stories, you know, we used to all sit around the fire at the end of the day and tell stories, but this is like the art of telling stories, I feel like you’ve been honing it since you were three years old, since you could talk, I love that, and everything in your life is fodder for a story, that’s what’s so beautiful about writing, there’s nothing that you can’t write about, yeah, if you’re brave enough, and you’re brave, you’re very brave, you’re willing to write deep things, which I love, so I’m gonna have you read a piece that you wrote this past year, which has the most epic, amazing title, so cool, and it didn’t, this whole piece is an evolution, but the title is currently Declaration of a Gen Z Stargazer, love this title. So, if you would regale us with this beautiful piece, if you would read it for us.

00:06:10 – 00:07:25
Okay. The Hunters of Artemis, navigated by stars, their sacred stories are folded into the network of lights we have gazed upon for centuries, these burning bodies of gas full of mystery. Before anything, these were the maps of the heavens, these were the gods. Now I look at the rectangular, shiny light held in the palm of my hand and wonder if this is my guide. Brilliance has been poured into this box, but what we so often find before our eyes, the infinite for you page, social media, something so vapid, but profound, shallow, but cavernous, cruel, but kind. So confusing. There are endless statistics of how social media is destructive to teens. Young adults are three times more likely to suffer from depression if they use social media. I saw that one posted on someone’s Instagram story. Gen Z will save us, Gen Z will be the end of us. As a victim and honeybee worker of social media, all I can really say is that it confuses me. At one moment, I watch a video of a screaming toddler cling to her father as she is separated from him while fleeing Ukraine with her mother.

00:07:25 – 00:08:42
The father sobs silently and pats her head as they are pulled away from each other. I scroll down and the next video is a blurred edit of a nightclub with girls in skimpy outfits and sparkly cowboy hats dancing under disco lights all while habits by tall low plays. The juxtaposition leaves me stunned. I don’t know how to feel or what to do, but I am momentarily pulled away from my perpetual scrolling. Swipe, swipe, pause, swipe. Ignore time limit. Social media is an endless rabbit hole of content. It is meant to intrigue, feed, comfort, and smother us until we cannot escape its grip. We sit in boxes watching thousands, millions of other small lights liquor in their boxes, but we feel alone. Everyone can admit this, yet we all log into our Instagram accounts each day. My generation has grown up with social media. Most of my youth has been documented by an iPhone camera. I can’t really imagine a time without phones and social media, a fact that sometimes makes me sad and disappointed. Most adults aren’t helpful. They love to talk about their generations and how glad they are that they weren’t born in ours. When I was young, we used to go outside. We only had flip phones.

00:08:43 – 00:09:08
AOL messaging was the closest thing we had to social media. There wasn’t so much obsession about appearances when I was in high school. You’ll destroy your neck sitting like that. Everywhere I go, I see kids on their phones. Does anyone even read anymore? Yes. I read. There’s a whole community of people on Instagram and TikTok that dedicate their time to sharing their love of books. I feel a personal connection with these people I’ve never met.

00:09:09 – 00:10:20
They are funny, charismatic, and smart. I love the same fandoms as them. Do you even know what a fandom is? And even if my neck is in a sloped position, I am laughing and smiling when I see this content. I want to say all of this, but I do not. Social media is not a box I opened, yet I am labeled Pandora. Every young generation is ridiculed and criticized in some way by an older generation who is ridiculed by an older generation who is ridiculed by an even older generation. And this goes back and back until we are nothing but monkeys picking ticks off each other. And yes, I’ve seen that on TikTok. But Gen Z did not invent social media. It was forced upon our backs since we could crawl, and although we have carried this weight until we now stand, we are blamed for its rise in ubiquity. The solution of cutting away all social media with one sweep of a knife is improbable. Whether we approve of it or not, it is woven into the fabric of young people’s lives. It’s in our brains, our skin. There’s no cutting away of it. I don’t think adults understand that we have our own opinions of social media.

00:10:20 – 00:11:08
We have an understanding of how it has affected us. And we know the burden we shoulder. We feel disappointment, anger, and shame. We are sad that people don’t write letters anymore, twist a finger around a phone line, or have the old-fashioned type of meet-cute relationships. We admire our grandparents’ stories, but we still stare at other people’s lives through a thin, black screen, and we search for authenticity. At night, our faces are illuminated by the light of that tiny screen, and we wish we could see the stars instead. Ours are spent contemplating how others perceive us and how we create our own curated brand. Who am I? It’s not a new question for adolescents, but it feels warped through the pixels. Sometimes we don’t feel this way.

00:11:08 – 00:11:40
We send funny memes back and forth. We appreciate those who have come before us, those who have made a difference, and we contemplate how we will do the same. Everyone says teenagers don’t talk to each other anymore, and maybe we are a bit more socially awkward and hesitant because we were locked inside for two years, but the idea that we don’t talk is simply wrong. We shout, bigger ideas sprinkled within the smaller ones. We debate which surprise song Taylor Swift will play on tour tonight, and we advocate for women’s healthcare rights. We send around memes of the movie Zoolander and fight for gun control.

00:11:41 – 00:12:09
We crane our necks down and wonder what are we going to do to save this planet. It is painful and crushing, and it is beautiful and freeing, and it is ours. Within this confusion and duality, I believe there is a unity. It is a humming connection, built of all those swipes and pauses and smiles and time limits set and ignored. And still, I long to see the stars. This is who I am. This is who we are.

00:12:11 – 00:17:00
Oh, my God. This is so incredibly powerful. I mean, every line is a magnificent quote. It’s hard to just, we’re going to talk about some of my favorites, but every line is magnificent. I just want to say my overall feeling, and this is, I’ve read this several times, and this is the latest revision, and hearing you read it, hearing your voice is so powerful, and the overall feeling that comes from reading it is the vindication of the wisdom and power of young women. Like, I keep talking about this all the time. I’m like, no, no, no, you have to understand. Young women, the young people of Gen Z are amazing. They are so deep and complex and profound, and nobody knows, they don’t understand, but they will understand when they hear this piece, and when they read this piece, and the link to this piece is underneath the podcast. This is magnificent, and this is such a, it’s like an anthem for Gen Z. I feel like not everyone can write as eloquently as this particular writer, and thank goodness this writer has expressed these things, because I feel like they are universally felt by everyone in your generation, and I think anyone who reads this in your generation would be like, hell yes, this is what it’s like to be us, and the level of self-awareness, the fact that social media was not created by you. It is not y’all’s fault that it exists. You’re simply using what was thrust into your hands, and using it exceptionally well, by the way, using it much better than adults, and I feel like that is to be celebrated how well you use it, and how self-aware all y’all are while you’re using it. It’s such a magnificent piece. Okay, I’m going to just talk about a couple things. First of all, and this is kind of going to get us into talking about process, but when you read this, you wrote this in class, the first draft of this was written in class in like, I don’t know, 40 minutes, which is mind boggling. So you wrote it in 40 minutes, you read it, and I was blown away, my jaw was on the ground, and then you revised it and polished it and made it more powerful, which is, I didn’t even think it could be more powerful, and it became more powerful. That first paragraph is one of the new pieces, one of the evolutions, and I just want to read some of the lines again. Well, first of all, the very first line, I love Artemis, the hunters of Artemis navigated by stars. I love how the writer is constantly giving us the biggest possible view of the biggest possible context of this situation, and that is that in the beginning, this is what guided us, starlight. This second line, oh my God, their sacred stories are folded into the network of lights. We have gazed upon for centuries these burning bodies of gas full of mystery. Oh my God, so good. And this is, it also anchors this story of what’s happening in the present, this social media phenomenon that sort of engulfed our lives. It gives us like, okay, this is connected to something very ancient and deep. This is just the latest version of it. I love the transition from, okay, before there were maps of the heavens, those were the gods. Now, I look at the rectangular, shiny light held in the palm of my hand and wonder if this is my God. Basically, that we’re always, that’s our human nature, to look for guidance, to look for illumination, and also, of course, and thought about this until you pointed it out by writing it, that a phone is a light, that we used to look at the lights in the sky, because that was what we had, and now we have lights in our hand. This whole first paragraph is just not that big. Thank you. But then we get into the actual talking about the being a Gen Z person in social media, in a social media world. So I want to talk, I’m going to quote some other lines that I thought were amazing, but I wanted to stop for a minute and let you talk about your creative process. First question is, before you started writing this piece, did you know where it was going? Was it like you kind of had a vision in your head or did it sort of surprise you what came out? And then how was the process of editing it over time? Yeah. So I think I’ve always wanted to write about social media and my relationship with social media and my generation’s relationship with social media.

00:17:01 – 00:18:03
And that idea was kind of floating in the back of my mind for a long time, because it’s so present in my life. And then I mentioned it in the piece, but that moment where I watched those two videos of the daughter and her father in Ukraine, and then that video. Also, I should mention, I think the Swedish pronunciation of Tovlo, I know that’s like the American, I said that because I think most Americans pronounce it that way, but I think it’s actually Tuv-a-loo, which I… Oh. Anyway, I thought I should add that. I didn’t want to speak out and tell people not to recognize it, but that is correct pronunciation. That’s awesome. But I felt like just so shocked. And so I didn’t know how to feel and I didn’t know. I was disgusted, but I also felt pain and sympathy and just, I was so confused. And it did stop my perpetual scrolling, as I said. And I just sort of stopped and I knew that this was a key thing to mention.

00:18:03 – 00:22:34
I wanted to mention it. And I went to my journal, which is where often, I think when I have overwhelming emotions, I go to my paper writing, which I usually don’t do for longer pieces, because I think it’s more efficient to type. But if I have just feelings that I don’t really know what direction they’re going in, but they need to come out, I write in my journal. And so I took that out and I just sort of started writing. I wrote that moment and I was just like, I want to remember this. I want to remember this feeling and this moment and those two videos. And then I think about a week later, we had our class and I thought, okay, this is a good chance to write something, an actual piece. And so I sort of took that moment and I spread it out longer. And I think as I was writing, I started to have more realizations about like I came to some conclusions because I think I was still left in the beginning with that feeling of confusion and just like, what do I do with this? I know this is powerful. I know that what this example is a great example of something. I don’t really know what something is yet. And so as I was writing, I think I just wrote what was true and what I felt. And I started writing kind of about the bad things, kind of about the confusion and then about the bad things and how I hate social media sometimes and how I feel such a burden with social media. And then as I was writing, I started to write about the good things and it’s not awful. And that’s why I kind of feel the confusion too. And I don’t know, we were given this big vast thing that is so hard to make sense of. And then I think as I kept on going, I sort of was that declaration sort of came to me of like, this is complicated and it’s so confusing and it’s so complex and it’s awful and it’s also beautiful. And it’s just such a vast thing. It’s a vast entity and it can be bad and it can be good, but it is part of my generation. It’s part of that cultural. I think each generation has the culture that they grow up in and that becomes a part of who they are. And I think there’s so much shaming of social media and it’s not a fantastic thing. There’s so many awful things, so awful parts of it. But I also think that it’s who we are. And that’s kind of how I came to that declaration of like, we didn’t bring, we didn’t come up with this idea, sort of giving that. We were like the little, we were the test, I say like the honeybee workers of kind of like, we just were given this and we used it. And now it’s kind of part of our culture and it can be bad and it can be good, but it’s ours. So I feel like, I don’t know, I keep kind of that declaration as I was writing. And then- That line, just exactly what you’re talking about, I want to quote back your line. Social media is not a box I opened yet I am labeled Pandora. That is profound. Like it’s exactly what you’re saying. I can’t say it any better than that, that somehow that your generation is shamed for being part of something that was thrust upon you. Yeah. It’s so unfair. Yeah. I think, and I got into like even more deeper meaning when I went back to the editing process, because I think I started with the sentence originally, like social media is confusing. And that was just the idea that I had. And I worked off of that idea that it’s confusing. And then as I went back, like I think I was, I was talking in a very literal sense and just like telling the emotions that I felt and the things that were happening and the things that I saw. And then when I went back, I sort of returned to the idea of, at the end, I had that stargazing line of like wanting to see the stars and like being in boxes. And I am a very nostalgic person. I always look for the, and I always look for deep meaning in things. It’s just like who I am. I’m very emotions feeling centered person. And so I was sort of just like thinking about this stargazing thing and thinking about how powerful social media is. And so I sort of just was thinking about like, what is another powerful stargazing thing? And I thought about Greek mythology and I’ve always been fascinated by Greek mythology. I loved the Percy Jackson books when I was in like fifth grade. I thought it was, it’s such a sacred, mystical thing.

00:22:34 – 00:23:47
And I think that comparing the godlike power of Greek mythology and stars and the universe to this sort of godlike power that social media has now in our people, in our generation, in Gen Z, I think that that was kind of a comparison that elevated the piece. And also I think just starting, as you mentioned, from a wider perspective and then zooming in, like just thinking about the vast universe and the stars and the evolution of how we’ve gotten here and how social media and technology is extremely impressive. I still, I don’t even know how phones work. I mean, it’s crazy. Technology is so impressive and it’s awe inspiring about how we’ve managed to create this thing, but how our creations have also done some damage. And I don’t know, it’s this thing of like you appreciate the evolution and then also sort of thinking about what it’s done to us as a culture. So I think that that was, it was a lot of things, but I think that going back with that and starting with that wider perspective, it makes it more sacred in a way.

00:23:47 – 00:24:50
I love that. I love talking about the sacred. It’s one, it makes me think too about the myth of Prometheus who brought fire and was then brutally punished. And I think that there’s something about humans that we like, we want new, great, magical things, but then we fear them and there’s all this psychology behind it. And we shame ourselves and each other that line. Okay. I want to highlight this because I absolutely believe this is true. And this is why I’m so glad you said it. And I hope every adult hears this. I don’t think adults understand that we have our own opinions of social media. We have an understanding of how it has affected us. And we know the burden we shoulder. We feel disappointment, anger, and shame. And then the sadness the writer talks about like that they didn’t have, you know, I love that little anecdotes of not writing letters, not twisting a finger around a phone line, the old fashioned meet cutes.

00:24:50 – 00:25:47
And it makes me think, I mean, of course this is the context of the piece. This is the Declaration of Gen Z. There is nothing ever wrong about what each generation experiences being different from the last one. Thank God, it’s different. How boring would it be if every generation was the same and experienced the same thing? Personally, I think every generation is evolving into greater and greater awareness and spiritual consciousness and wisdom, which is why I say this all the time, but I truly believe Gen Z is the most spiritually conscious, politically, ethically, morally advanced of any generation that has ever lived. And that’s as it should be. So I think I like that you brought up the idea of nostalgia. I think we have this weird tendency to always think the past was better. But it’s just different. And I love that. Yeah, you didn’t have the phone cord to twist around your finger, but that phone cord was annoying.

00:25:47 – 00:26:13
You had to stay in the room where the phone was, or you’d like drag the cord around the corner and tried to close the door on it. And it was stupid. So much better to have a cell phone. So I think it’s understanding that things change. And I think that is probably the hardest thing for all of us, myself included. Change is so scary. And it’s the unknown. And it’s unpredictable.

00:26:13 – 00:26:45
Social media, every minute, the way you’ve described it, every minute you can get some new, crazy information depending on who’s posting what, when, where, it is absolutely endless. It just keeps on going and going. And I think it does feel a little bit, I’ve thought about it a lot. And I actually had a discussion with my dad about this one. About how there is a legal drinking age. And that there are people who suffer from alcoholism.

00:26:45 – 00:28:20
And then there are people who can enjoy alcohol as a fun thing. And that it’s all drugs. You can have it in moderation and it can be a good thing. And then it can also be awful. And I guess eventually, we might come to that realization with social media a little bit. It’s too much when you’re too young, I think. And it’s just like, when you’re 12, it’s like what, and I didn’t get social media at 12. I got it in eighth grade. And even then it was like, it was a lot. And I think that it’s such, I keep on saying vast, but I think that that’s just the word that comes to mind is that in each corner of the internet, there’s just so much. And there are a lot of like funny things that I, you know, I send funny memes back and forth with my friends and my family. And it’s great. And we all laugh. And then there’s also just horrible things. And it’s also endless. And it just sometimes feels like a void, but you get like sucked into, which I think is hard to deal with. Like, how do you, how do you get some of the good parts without feeling the void of social media? And I, that’s something I still struggle with. I still, you know, spend too long on Instagram and then close my phone. And I’m like, what did I just do with that hour? Like what, that hour’s just gone. It feels, you know, it’s so easy to go into that. And then no one ever closes Instagram after like an Instagram binge. And it’s like, I felt productive. I felt really good about that. Like, I don’t think, I don’t know. And it’s a weird space of like, you don’t want to loathe yourself for that.

00:28:20 – 00:29:02
You don’t want it. That’s not a thing that’s worth hating yourself for, for doing that. But it’s also, it’s so confusing. And that’s just, I think I always just come back to that. And I think about the older generation part of the shame. I think I have older siblings who are sort of millennial age. And I’ve also just been around adults a lot. So I feel like I end up talking to adults about they always are like, how’s Gen Z doing? And I think that there is kind of that shame aspect of like, oh, Gen Z, the social media is so bad. And I’m like, I didn’t do it. Like, they’ll tell me kind of things of like, you know, it’s just such a shame.

00:29:02 – 00:29:49
I would never want to be born in Gen Z. It’s kind of, I don’t know, I don’t know what to do with that. So I, I sort of felt like I wanted to translate that of, I didn’t come up with this idea. None of us did. And just speak, it’s kind of become a part of us. And I think that we shouldn’t feel shame because of its existence. It’s not our fault, I think, is what I would say. And I return to that idea a lot of like, this entity that you have to deal with. It’s not like you created it. It’s not, I don’t know. And I think that shame is such a bad way to approach it. Oh, always. On every subject, shame helps nothing ever.

00:29:49 – 00:30:38
Yeah. And the most unproductive emotion. Yeah. Yeah. And I think like, when older generations are like, oh, the phones, it’s like, what do you want? I don’t know. I think that it’s become, it’s part of who we are. And I think like, there’s people, I see like, older people on Instagram or TikTok or the newspaper talking about like, we need to cut down on phone use and we need to cut out social media. But it’s become such an integral part of Gen Z’s existence, Gen Z’s communication, their thought process, everything, that it’s like, you can’t just cut it away. It’s a problem that you can’t just like, get rid of by it not existing. It exists. It’s out there. Whether you like, it’s put out into the world.

00:30:38 – 00:31:35
It’s out there. I love that line. I’m sorry, I have to quote you again. You said it so well. Whether we approve of it or not, it is woven into the fabric of young people’s lives. More than that, the writer says, it is in our brains, our skin. There is no cutting away of it. Yeah. I think that that’s, it just feels, it’s made its effect already. And I think that a better way to look at it is like, it is a part of who we are. And we need to figure out ways to deal with it in productive ways, bad ways. Obviously, I’ve said this so many times in this call, I’ve said it like 15 times, but there’s bad parts and good parts. And I think Gen Z needs to claim that. That was my declaration of a Gen Z stargazer of, I think for me, I’m a person who has nostalgia and looks for deeper meaning and wants things to be sacred.

00:31:35 – 00:32:25
And I think social media can sometimes feel so vapid and so not sacred. Like it can feel so disgusting and shallow and just, and it feels very modern in a way. But I think that eventually we’ll look back on this version of social media as a very large, powerful, and I don’t want to say sacred because sacred feels like something really, really good. And I don’t think that social media necessarily is really, really good. There are parts of it that are really, really good. But I think that we’ll look back on it with that. Eventually, generations of the future might look back on this social media, this version of social media and say, wow, that was a good thing. Like have nostalgia for that. And I think that looking at things that a black and white way is never good. I’m not a black and white thinker.

00:32:25 – 00:33:00
I’m like the rainbow and the colors and tears and emotions and feelings all in one big mixing pot. But that’s how it feels to me. I think that I look for sacred meaning. I look for understanding. And I think that the conclusion I reached in this piece is that there is no simple understanding, but it is who we are. And I’ve said that so many times, but it’s just, it’s true. It’s who we are in us. Beautiful. No, it’s so beautiful. And I love that you use the word sacred. All adults need to note that Gen Z knows what sacred means.

00:33:00 – 00:33:33
There’s a lot of adults that don’t know what sacred means. Sacred is a really big word for me. To me, I feel like what you’re talking about with sacred is the inherent meaningfulness of the human soul. And when that comes out every so often, it’s all about curating your social media feed. We’ve talked about this. You can, and I’ve gotten help from y’all about this, like how to make your Instagram and TikTok feed better reflect your values.

00:33:33 – 00:36:51
You can actually do that. And with great time and effort, you can get to the point that everything that shows up in your feed is coming from, I mean, there’s incredible spiritual teachers and deep philosophers. And I love all the mental health content. Oh my God, I follow so many psychologists and I’m always learning from them. So I think that what is sacred and what you’re looking for and finding meaning in social media is those moments when human beings are authentically expressing some deep truth and you get to share in it, they may live in Sweden or Alaska or China, and you get to benefit from their authentic wisdom, which you never would have had. We didn’t have social media. Yeah. I do think, I think there’s, like when I talk about like the good things about social media, I think, I think of like funny memes and stuff and all that whole category of TikTok and Instagram of people making fun of TV shows and, and tropes and whatnot and sending that back and forth. But there’s also connection with people across the world that you and teachings and, and it feels like almost social media, the process of going through social media and scrolling is like you find the occasional gem and you have to scroll a long time to maybe get there. And I think that can feel awful because there’s so much that there’s these really true gems in between all the other stuff that you kind of have to pile through. And I think that like, as a whole, that is confusing and it’s sort of hard to deal with like, is, I’ve had people say like, is it worth it like to scroll for 20 minutes and then find one thing that makes you feel profound? Yes. I would say yes. Yes, I think so. I don’t know. And I, for me, my relationship with social media tends to be the doom scrolling, like the endless scrolling in which you can find good things. And then sometimes you’re like, what did I just do? Because it is this just overwhelming flood of content that it does feel like, what am I supposed to do with this? And I think that that is a new Gen Z question of what are we doing with this? What do we do with this? Like, what does this become? We put so much out there that at what point, how do you take, what do you take in? What do you throw out? Where does it go? I don’t know. And it’s out there forever. I think that’s also a good thing about posting. Yes. Putting a version of yourself out there, even if you delete it, people screenshot it, people, whatever, you know, I’m not saying like, yes, it is just this version of like, there’s different versions of yourself out there and dealing with how, what do you do with all those versions of yourself? How do you put that version out? How do you put the version that you want out? And then how do you also not feel vapid and fake when you, you know, I think that there’s sort of the idea of putting out a curated image of who you are that accurately represents your values and your personality, but it can feel fake and forced. But then it’s also how do you be vulnerable? How do you, you know, you don’t want to overshare. You don’t want to be telling everything about your life.

00:36:51 – 00:38:42
And so I think that it, it’s that weird balance. And I don’t have an answer. I don’t think anyone has an answer really, but it’s something that people have to deal with. And it’s something that Gen Z has to combat through there growing up. I think that it’s, when I said like the line about who am I, it’s warped through the pixels. It does feel, it feels like a new question, like your identity and then your identity online. It feels like a whole new layer of that question of figuring out who you are and finding your identity and how your identity is always changing and how the person you are at 16 is not the person you are at 30 and not the person you are at 50. And that what you put online when you’re 15 is sort of out there as a version of yourself. And that’s just, it’s complicated. It’s complex and it’s a lot to deal with. And it feels, it is at times a burden. And I think when older generations talk about it in black and white terms, it’s like, no, we understand. We understand it’s a burden. We understand how painful it is. Like we’re aware of that. And I think that is sort of the level, I think that’s the deep level of that is that we know, we know it’s a burden and we know we’re going to have to fight it and we’re going to and we’re doing this. This is who we are, but don’t shame us for having to do this. I think that that is, and I always come back to that conclusion because my writing always gets in some dramatic declaration. So that’s, I just decided to call it declaration because I feel like all of my writing always ends in some big statement of like, this is who I am. Because I think that’s the question I’m always trying to answer in every single thing I write, but yeah. Yeah. Well, first of all, that is the magic and the power of writing is that it is a self revelation process. I mean, I feel like we don’t know sometimes, or we don’t have perfect clarity about what we think and feel until we write it down.

00:38:42 – 00:39:17
And the process of writing it is like, yes, this is what I believe. Here it is. And it just formulates it and lays it out so beautifully. And then there’s like the relief of it’s fully expressing how you feel that you hadn’t expressed before. It feels so good. What comes up for me, and I hadn’t thought about this before, but I actually saw a post about this on Instagram and it’s popping back in my head. And this is like the gem that somebody had said, I cannot remember now who it was. I probably screen grabbed it. It’s somewhere on my phone.

00:39:17 – 00:41:54
Is that really social media is about cultivating conscious discernment. If you are not conscious and you’re just passively, and I’ve done it, everybody’s done it. And in fact, like if you’ve had a really bad day, it’s the absolute worst. Cause you just go down that rabbit hole and you just scroll, scroll, scroll. And it’s almost like, so you don’t have to feel anything or think anything. You just scroll, scroll, scroll. And that is that horrible, empty, rapid feeling that you feel so gross afterwards. But I think what you’re talking, I mean, they’re both, all options are available online, but the, what we’re leaning toward and what I think your generation is mastering ahead of adults. I think your generation is getting a handle on it first and is going to be leading the charge. And is the, I mean, so many, I followed so many young people on social media. And that is that y’all are being conscious about how you’re using it and discerning what is authentic. There was that great line where you said about, here it is, we admire our grandparents’ stories, but we will still stare at other people’s lives through a thin black screen. And we search for authenticity. The very fact that one is searching for authenticity, if you’re searching, you’re going to find it. And I think you all are grudge. I mean, it’s a really existential question. Who am I? It’s a lifelong question. But the fact that you’re plumbing the depths and trying to figure it out, you start discerning what is meaningful to you. And then all the other stuff can go to the side. I also had the image of, since we’re going back and forth between hunter-gatherers in our current time, when we, I mean, it seems like it was mainly women, although I’m sure there were some men who did it, were, we were the gatherers as women, we would have to go out into the field and discern, consciously discern between the poisonous mushrooms and the healthy mushrooms and the poisonous berries and the good berries. We were always, from the beginning of time, we’ve been like, don’t do that one, but you should do that one. Which means the only way you can discern between several different options is you have to see all the options. And so I almost wonder if social media is like a modern version of hunting and gathering. That is a great way to put it. I like that. I’ve never thought of it that way. I haven’t either, it’s sort of. And I think that’s what’s happening with social media is that here’s, like you said, vast, infinite amount of knowledge goes on forever.

00:41:54 – 00:43:12
And we all have to figure out how to pick what’s right for us. And that’s why, again, Gen Z is so ahead of us, because I think adults, I think adults feel ashamed of their own use of social media. There’s that expression, hurt people, hurt people. And I also believe shamed people, shame people. If you feel shame, if, I mean, if a person feels shame, they’re more likely to pass that shame along. So most likely the shaming that is coming from adults isn’t about you at all. It’s the adults shame. So I feel like the adults can, instead of shaming young people, can learn from the discernment that Gen Z has. Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s you, you always put things in beautiful, you phrase beautifully. Ah, that’s cool. I’m just riffing off of your genius. It’s so freaking amazing. Everything that you wrote is so profound. I want everyone, I want every adult to read this because of all the things we’ve talked about, I think there’s so much weird judgment and bias and shame against teens. And like, we need y’all to have is light up, to feel as light and as powered as possible, because this is the other thing.

00:43:12 – 00:44:13
Through no fault of your own, we are kind of expecting you to save us from our stupidity. So we need you guys to feel good and positive and not be weighed down with shame. That is not helping anybody. And that brings me to the final, I love the last paragraph, the examples of the things that Gen Z does online. We debate which surprise song Taylor Swift will play on tour tonight. Boy, that’s relevant right now. And we advocate for women’s healthcare rights. So could you reread starting with, actually with we crane our necks down because that circles back to, you know, you had mentioned craning your necks before. From that line to the end. Could you read that again? Yes. We crane our necks down and wonder what are we going to do to save this planet? It is painful and crushing, and it is beautiful and freeing, and it is ours. Within this confusion and duality, I believe there is unity.

00:44:13 – 00:45:22
It is a humming connection built of all those swipes and pauses and smiles and time limits set and ignored. And still, I long to see the stars. This is who I am. This is who we are. Oh my God. So, of course, the reason I wanted you to start with that line is that question, which Gen Z is leading the charge. I don’t know if you just saw that the kids, teenagers in Montana successfully sued the state. Oh, I just see that. They succeeded in using the legal system to say that Montana has to stop polluting because that’s actually part of the one of the values of Montana is that everyone’s entitled to clean air and water. And they’re like, you’re messing that up. You can’t do that anymore. So this whole thing about, I mean, I was, I remember crying myself to sleep when I was a child about environmental issues, and there was no momentum behind it in the 80s. But I love like with Greta Thunberg, and there’s so many activists, like dozens and dozens and dozens of incredible climate change activists that are all Gen Z.

00:45:22 – 00:45:53
And this, this is points out like, again, the awareness, self-awareness of the generation. Yes, we all, you know, look at pop culture stuff, but you’re also saddled with all the heavy, overwhelming existential thoughts that every adult is grappling with. But you have less support, like adults can go to a job for a Greenpeace or something, you guys have to go to school and do homework, and worry about saving the planet. That seems like too much.

00:45:56 – 00:46:33
In that line, it is painful and crushing. I think that says it perfectly. And then it’s also beautiful and freeing because you have this incredible creative power. I do believe your generation is going to start generating the solutions because you’re looking for them. I think previous generations were not as, it’s just a different situation. I feel like you have such incredible creativity and vision as a generation. And this, this last, I get the names of two sentences. Within this confusion and duality, I believe there’s unity.

00:46:33 – 00:46:59
That is totally Gen Z. And then the description of it is a humming connection. I love that because of course, there is a hum to electricity, but also there’s like a, this is sort of suggest like a symphonic magical sacred connection built of all those swipes and pauses and smiles and time limits set and ignored. I love when you mentioned that earlier about ignoring the time limit.

00:46:59 – 00:47:56
Oh, I do that all the time. I feel like I set a time limit and I’m scrolling and I’m like, ignore time limit. And then I just feel awful about it, but I still do it. And I just, and I think that that was like, I think that that was one of the big conclusions of the piece of that. We’re all feeling this confusion that social media can feel so isolating and lonely. And when you’re experiencing it, it can feel as if you are the only one who feels this confusion and pain because you’re holding this little screen with everything in the world. And then, you know, you’re, you have access to all of it and yet you feel very alone in experiencing all of it. So I think one of the conclusions that I arrived with at the end is that in this confusion, we are united as a generation that we all are experiencing this in one way or another.

00:47:56 – 00:48:52
Even if you don’t have social media, you’re experiencing it because you have access to the whole world online. If you have a computer, if you have phone, if you have Safari, you can see anything. You can experience anything. And that it is so confusing and it feels like a burden, but it’s also a unity. And beautiful search for, I love that you said beautiful. It’s also beautiful and freeing. Yeah. Because you can find anything about anything. Like if you’re any kind of question, I think sometimes like, Oh my God, what did I do before I could Google everything every five minutes? I just didn’t know thing. I think I was just like, Oh, it’s a mystery. I don’t know. Whereas now you can just be a detective of your life, which is so cool. And then I love that very, at the very end, still I long to see the stars.

00:48:52 – 00:49:44
This is who I am. This is who we are. That brings it back to the beginning, which is like, really what we’re looking for, what everybody’s looking for, whether or not they can articulate it or are conscious of it is we’re all looking for light, which is a metaphor for meaning, connection, authenticity. And I would say really the experience of being truly alive. That’s what we’re all looking for. And that’s, that’s what connects us. And the fact that you have that awareness, that is how you as a writer and a storyteller are going to be a leader in this conversation. And I think you, like many in your generation, are going to help bring sacredness and consciousness more and more into social media, because that’s actually what everybody wants.

00:49:44 – 00:51:33
Whether most people would not say sacred, but you know, most it’s actually what we, what everybody is yearning for. Yes. I think you put that so beautifully, like the search to feel alive, I think is just always true. No matter what, no matter what age you are or where you live or what you’re doing, that search I think is, and it does, it feels warped through social media and it feels warped through global events. And I don’t know, I think every generation has had their own battle of feeling what you said, the search to feel alive and to feel authentic and to feel seen. And I think that that is something beyond Gen Z that all generations can relate to. And I, what I think I’m trying to articulate here is that social media is our battle, our search to feel alive, but that search to feel authentic is for everyone. Yeah. You’re on the leading edge of this. And so you guys have to wrestle it the most and that, yeah, it’s just what is happening at this time. And every generation has to wrestle the demons of that time and it shapes them and it’s all perfect. No more shame for anybody, right? We are going to say, let’s love and accept everyone where they are as they are because it just, it is what it is. Oh my God. We can keep talking about this, but I do also want to ask you, this is always the big question. What advice would you give to other young writers who are writing and they get like, they start a piece or in the middle of the piece and they just get stuck and they’re like, Oh my God, how did I get here? And what am I saying?

00:51:33 – 00:52:21
How do you get unstuck? How do you deal with, and this process with this piece, you revised it several times. So I imagine that during the revising process, there were moments when you were like, stop. How do you deal with that? Yeah, I think, and this took me a while. I’m still very young. So I’m sure there are many other revelations that I will come to in terms of right in regard to writing. But I think when I was in high school, I realized sort of the power of telling your truth, your feelings. I think for before middle, during middle school, elementary school, even still, I would try to write stuff or try to write stories that I had never experienced, feelings that I didn’t, I’d write about adults or fantasy worlds.

00:52:21 – 00:52:53
And I think you can find truth in fantasy. Obviously the main characters all have human traits, but I would write things that were very far from my own life. Or, you know, I was fascinated by like the Hunger Games and Percy Jackson and kind of those series of, and I try to write my own versions of those. And I never went far with them. I mean, I would have the idea, but it never would carry through. But I think when I’ve started with my own truth and what I’ve experienced, my own feelings, that always fuels me so much more.

00:52:53 – 00:53:21
And I’m able to go back to that when I struggle. I think like when I’m working on a piece and I’m thinking, where is this going? I don’t know. Then I go, I try to go back to that feeling that I started. And everything for me in terms of writing is always centered around feelings and emotions. It’s just like, just my style. And so I go, I try to go back to that feeling of what inspired this. What did I feel when I started it? How has that changed? Maybe it’s changed.

00:53:21 – 00:55:03
Maybe it’s evolved. But what is that sort, like what is that core experience that is rooting, that’s rooted this piece? And I think writing about your own life, writing about the things that you’ve experienced is always the most powerful. And you can always tell. And I think in books, when people are writing about things that they’ve experienced or things they haven’t, it’s just, it’s just natural. It’s authentic. And you look for authenticity everywhere. And I think so that’s the way I write is writing about myself, writing about my emotions, or if I’m writing a fictional story, have it be based off of something I actually have experienced. Maybe it’s a fictional character, but it’s emotions that I know and I recognize. And one time, actually, one teacher told me that in regard to writing, if you’re struggling with a piece and you feel like where is this going, to find just one line that you love and go to that line and ask yourself what is, what is doing it for me with this line? Like what is, what is so special about this? What is the point that I’m making? What’s the emotion that I feel with this line? And then looking at that in regard to the whole piece and like pulling it, maybe even if it’s just that one line that you love, that you can still make something off of that. And I think I’m always hesitant to cut things. So the way I write on a Google Doc, at least as I’m like, I don’t love the sentence, but I don’t want to cut it because I might need it later. And I pull it and then I like indent down. So then I end up with like a 15 page Google Doc when the story is only two pages long, because I have all those ideas that I, and by the end of the story, usually I cut them.

00:55:03 – 00:56:16
But I think that clinging to that is okay. Like when you’re writing, I think there’s a lot of pieces of like, oh, I don’t love the section, but just moving it down. And I think I’m, I’m always afraid to cut. I’m like, I don’t want to cut it. But I think it helps in the overall process. If you’re like, it, what is this serving the piece? That was the answer. No, that’s great. That was a very great. No, that’s it. That’s, I mean, that old cliche, write what you know is not better expressed as write your truth, because what you’re, what is true for you will come out beautifully. I think everyone is afraid because of other teachings that we won’t get into where people are told to like, follow a very specific structure and write in a very specific way. And so people feel like, oh, if I just express myself authentically, it’s going to be lame. No, whatever is authentic for you is actually going to be beautiful. And that happens so often in class where people write something and they’re, they were being authentic. And they of course, assume that it’s dumb. And then of course, you listen to it and you’re like, no, that’s okay. The truth is always beautiful, even if it seems basic, it’s not, it’s like poetic when you just can speak your truth.

00:56:16 – 00:57:01
So I guess maybe that’s the big thing is like giving yourself permission to be authentic and speak to your own. Also similar to that is the fear that if you write about your personal life, it’s going to be quote, boring, because we don’t think our lives are that interesting, but they are anything you focus on and give attention to becomes beautiful. Yes. So yeah. Yeah. The most mundane human experience is so beautiful to me. And I think I don’t, that’s also, I think that’s a unique trait. Like some people, I don’t know. I think some people have it more than others. I think often people who are interested in writing have an appreciation for just life. I could often just sit and watch people like people watching so fascinating.

00:57:01 – 00:57:27
But I think all of that inner thought, inner dialogue, the question of who am I is so for everyone. It’s so beautiful. It’s so I could just, and that’s why I love listening to adults talk and listening to like people and watching. It’s just, it’s such a profound sacred experience. And I can never get enough of it. I love, I love the story of people.

00:57:28 – 00:58:03
Yeah. I think what is actually, you’re making me think that, and I feel exactly the same, you and I are so similar, but I feel like what storytelling does is it illuminates the sacred. So you take an ordinary day and if you’re not conscious, I mean, we all have moments where we sort of go unconscious and we’re like drive someplace and I don’t even remember driving there. But when you write a story, you slow things down and you, you honor each moment, each feeling, each thought, each, each action, each observation, and that makes it sacred.

00:58:04 – 00:59:38
So it’s almost like, I mean, I think we feel like that after you read a great book, you feel like more aware after you feel like you’re paying attention to things in a whole different way. You’re noticing things differently. It’s the same thing. Yeah. When finishing a good book or walking out, I’ve seen so many memes of like walking out of a movie and feeling like the main character, but that is, that’s what good writing does. It makes you feel aware of your presence and your actions and your being, and it makes you feel, it makes the human experience, the most mundane things just feel, you feel like the main character. You feel so aware of the heroine of your own story. Yes. That’s it. Because we are all the heroine of our own story and the author that’s dual power with that. But I do think that just the nature of modern life, I don’t know what I love to imagine what it would have been like. And that’s why I loved your piece, you know, in the ancient times, the towering forest that had never been cut down by man. And God, can you imagine how clean the air must have been and how pure you could drink water right out of this stream? But I like to imagine what it was like then. And I like to believe that it was easier to be conscious, but we’ll never know. But I do feel it is very hard to stay conscious now, partly because of, I mean, social media is one of a million things that goes very fast. And when you’re going really fast, it’s just, I think you just sort of at a certain point, you can’t process at all. So writing slows it down. Also, the very nature of writing is slow.

00:59:39 – 01:00:32
You cannot write as fast as you think. So it forces your thoughts to slow down. Yeah, like if you could write as fast as you think you would write like 5 million books a day. But yeah, you’re writing. And now speaking of your writing specifically, because you’re writing is very deep and thoughtful. I feel like when you’re writing, you are picking out these beautiful, deep details that have been your brain had to slow down enough so that you could write them down. And so they allow the reader to slow down as well. Yeah, I think writing takes patience, which is always very hard for me, because I’m not a very patient person. But I think the best, and my mom always, I have to be honest, my mom always pushes me to edit things further. And, you know, and I think I’m always like, I write something and I’m like, it’s done.

01:00:33 – 01:01:04
I don’t know. I’m like, it’s a blurt of ideas. And then I’m like, that was it. That was, but I think real, when you take some time, even though it’s hard for me to admit, when you take some time and patience and thought, like good writing is just thoughtfulness articulated well for me and in true. If it’s truth, if it’s articulated phrased a little bit nicely, and there’s thoughtfulness put into it, then it’s magic. Then it’s beautiful, I think.

01:01:04 – 01:01:36
I agree. I agree. We won’t get into this right now, because this is a whole other podcast conversation. But knowing when to stop editing is an art. Because technically you could edit something every day of your life and never be finished with it. And I also think editing is really important because it’s refining your thoughts. Like I do think editing is essential, but yet we also have to know when to stop. And that’s a whole, we’ll talk about that in another podcast. But I do think the hardest part is getting it out on the page the first time.

01:01:37 – 01:02:35
And then the second hardest part is getting it to a place where you feel like you’re ready to let go of it and put it on the wall. And you did it. I’m so happy that you did work this piece. I know you made several revisions on it. Actually, I don’t know. How many times do you think you revised this piece to get it to where it is now? Well, I think I initially wrote it, and then I took a long break from it. I wrote it and I liked it, but then I also knew that I needed to think about it for a while and just kind of like not read it, not think about it for a long time. And then I returned to it and I think I started working on it over the course of a few weeks. And I do a little bit here and there or just take a section, look at a particular section and be like, I don’t know. Let me change a little bit of this. I don’t know what this is saying, really. I kind of thought also, I mean, I hate doing this, but I thought about kind of the structure of the essay. Like I hate structure.

01:02:35 – 01:03:17
I mean, I shouldn’t say that, but in creative writing, in creative writing, I like structure doesn’t matter or whatever. This is just my thoughts. But I think to like look back on it with a little bit cold, no, I don’t want to say cold, a view that is less about the emotions and necessarily the feeling and be like, okay, this is what I’m starting with. Then I talk about this. Then I talk about this. Like does the flow make sense? Because I think when you’re so immersed in a piece and when you look forward your emotions into it, it’s really hard to look at it, like from it, to look at it from an outside perspective of whether it makes sense or not. And so I think I needed to take a step back to look at it and then make it.

01:03:17 – 01:03:45
And that’s, I think, also really good advice to people. What you just said is that sometimes just stop and come back to it later. Yeah. Because I think we tend to be unreliable narrators of ourselves and our inner critics are ferocious. And so sometimes I have seen this many times where somebody’s writing something like it’s so stupid, I can’t even stand it. And then they’ll come back to it later. And they’ll realize there’s actually a lot of genius in there.

01:03:45 – 01:04:44
And they just need to tweak a few things and then they’re happy with it. Yeah. So I think, yeah, giving yourself time. If you don’t, when you get, I think sometimes we get stuck because we’re trying too hard. And usually when the best stuff happens is when you kind of like let go a little bit, right? And then it just pours out and you’re like, why was this so hard before? And now I’ve got it. Yeah. I feel like when I try to write, sometimes I’ll sit down and say to myself, you know, Oh, you’re going to write for this hour. And then I go to write. I’m like, I have no idea what’s right. There’s nothing here. And then I go to bed and it right. Isn’t my about to fall asleep? Then I idea pops in. This is what you have to write about. This is, this is, this is the idea. This is the truth. This is all the emotions you’ve ever felt. This is the solution to life. And then I have to like pull out my notebook or pop and like type a few things. So I do feel like writing comes in moods and it comes in.

01:04:44 – 01:05:29
I don’t know. You sometimes have to give yourself a break. I don’t understand how my writing brain works. I don’t know why the ideas or when the ideas pop up, but sometimes they do. And sometimes they don’t. Yes. That is, and that’s the, we can end on that note, that idea of the magic in writing, the part that we can’t explain, which is where ideas come from, where stories come from, where words come from that pop into our heads. And so I think my only advice would be don’t think about it and as much as possible, relax and just open up and see what comes through you. Because I do think things come through when they need to come through and you can’t force it. The more you try, try, try, try. It’s not like a math problem.

01:05:29 – 01:06:15
You can’t like think really hard and have the answer. You have to actually stop thinking. And then you have to trust your intuition, which is all that you, all the magic you do. That’s it. You have to trust your intuition. That’s it in a nutshell. Intuitive writing. Yes. Oh my God. Josslyn, I could honestly, I mean, people who hear this will be like, oh my God, this probably could gone on for eight hours. It seems like you’re, neither of you are losing steam. We’re not losing steam. We couldn’t go eight hours, but we will stop for the sake of our audience. Thank you with all my heart for sharing your words and your wisdom. And honestly, your intuitive wisdom that is so deep and powerful.

01:06:15 – 01:06:23
And you are a storytelling leader and I appreciate it. Thank you. That means a lot coming from you. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me here.

Declaration of a Gen Z Stargazer with Josslyn Grover

For our tenth podcast, listen to 16-year-old Josslyn Grover read and discuss her brilliant piece, “Declaration of a Gen Z Stargazer,” in conversation with Intuitive Writing Project founder, Elizabeth Perlman.  
 
Starting with a conversation on the nature of social media as a pandora’s box of both positive and negative experiences, they delve deep into the creative writing process and the power of Gen Z to transform the world. 

You can read Josslyn’s words on our blog, The Intuitive Voice: https://intuitivevoice.org/2023/07/07/declaration-of-a-gen-z-stargazer/ 

To learn more about The Intuitive Writing Project, visit us at: 
https://www.intuitivewritingproject.org/ 

Thank you for your time and presence, supporting the voices of girls and gender-expansive youth! 

Music credit: “Abstract Fashion Pop” by QubeSounds from Pixabay

Elizabeth has a BA in Media Arts and a Masters in Transformative Arts, the study of creative expression for healing, connection, and growth. She is also a certified Group Leader in The Amherst Writing Method. Before launching TIWP in 2013, Elizabeth worked for over a decade as a graphic designer and art director in the advertising industry.

Word Magic: The Power of Writing to Reframe Your Story & Reclaim Your Intuition by Elizabeth Perlman is a self-help book that uses writing as a tool for self-discovery, healing, and empowerment, drawing from her “Intuitive Writing Project” for women and girls. It offers practical guidance and over 150 writing prompts to help readers trust themselves, reframe negative narratives, and find their inner wisdom through…

This compilation of 27 poems was written over the course of 25 years, from 1998 to 2023. (The title is reflects the author’s extreme delay in sharing her work—and yes, that is a unicorn finger puppet, taking time to smell the azealas!) The main theme of every poem is self-empowerment: remembering who we really are and reclaiming our innocence, our freedom and our joy. A…

CREDITS– HOST & PRODUCER: Elizabeth Perlman. FEATURED GUEST: Josslyn Grover. Hosted by Listen & Be Heard Network.

[link to transcript]

s2e12 – Rewind, October 29, 2026

We’re rewinding to April 10, 2024, for a conversation worth returning to. In this episode of The Listen & Be Heard Hour, Martha Cinader joins writer, teacher, and food-system thinker Meredith Leigh, author of The Ethical Meat Handbook, to imagine other ways of living.

Originally recorded in spring, their conversation brings a spirit of possibility to questions about alternatives to capitalism, honoring Indigenous wisdom, and the books and ideas that help us imagine change. This is an invitation to listen again—or discover the conversation for the first time—and consider what it means to nurture resilience together.

This one-hour Climate Resilience Special is part of a seasonal series produced in association with Laura Lengnick, founder of Cultivating Resilience, and Martha Cinader for Listen & Be Heard. The series makes room for conversations that are both informative and imaginative, exploring paths toward nurturing and resilience for everyone.

Martha Cinader goes into deepthink mode with Meredith Leigh, author of The Ethical Meat Handbook and thinker of thoughts still asking to be manifested. With the optimism that blossoms with Spring, the conversation focuses on alternatives to capitalism, honoring indigenous wisdom, revolutionary madness, books that inspire and more! This one-hour special is an ongoing seasonal series produced in association with Laura Lengnick, founder of Cultivating Resilience, and Martha Cinader for Listen & Be Heard. The purpose is to create an open discussion with experts that is both informative and imaginative and inspires a path to nurturing and resilience for everyone.

HOST: Martha Cinader. GUESTS: Meredith Leigh. ASSOCIATE PRODUCER:  DJ Jeannie Hopper. EDITING: Jeremiah Cothren. MUSIC: Jay Rodriguez Sierra.

Meredith Leigh, Author, The Ethical Meat Handbook

Meredith Leigh is a teacher, writer, and consultant and with 20 years experience in the food system with degrees in Environmental Science and Sustainable Agriculture. Over the course of her career she has owned and managed farms, worked in the non-profit sector, owned a restaurant and butchery shop. and built upon her expertise with diverse consulting work and extensive travel.

Her books are The Ethical Meat Handbook (3rd place, MFK Fisher awards 2015; IACP Cookbook Awards Winner 2021), and Pure Charcuterie (2017). She lives with her partner and four children on ancestral Cherokee land in Asheville, North Carolina.

Toward Collective Liberation is for activists engaging with dynamic questions of how to create and support effective movements for visionary systemic change. Chris Crass’s collection of essays and interviews presents us with powerful lessons for transformative organizing through offering a firsthand look at the challenges and the opportunities of anti-racist work in white communities, feminist…

… I am bound together at the seams by the thought of a new world//what it might cost us//what we stand to gain. I write to you bereaved from watching the avalanches of death manufactured by the United States, via their bloodchildren (the United Nations, the so-called state of Israel, the existence of the US…

Economics is the mother tongue of public policy. It dominates our decision-making for the future, guides multi-billion-dollar investments, and shapes our responses to climate change, inequality, and other environmental and social challenges that define our times.

Portrayals of the Anthropocene period are often dystopian or post-apocalyptic narratives of climate crises that will leave humans in horrific science-fiction scenarios. Such narratives can erase certain populations, such as Indigenous peoples, who approach climate change having already been through transformations of their societies induced by colonial violence. This essay discusses how some Indigenous perspectives…

“Hold tight. The way to go mad without losing your mind is sometimes unruly.” So begins La Marr Jurelle Bruce’s urgent provocation and poignant meditation on madness in black radical art. Bruce theorizes four overlapping meanings of madness: the lived experience of an unruly mind, the psychiatric category of serious mental illness, the emotional state…

Real world stories from the frontlines of climate change, resilience, and the future of food. CLIMATE CHANGE PRESENTS an unprecedented challenge to food and farming in the U.S. and beyond. Damaging weather variability and extremes capture the headlines, but more subtle changes caused by hotter summer nights, warmer winters, and a longer growing season have…

Ethical Meat is meat from an animal that had a good life, a good death, a good butcher, and a good cook. Ethical Meat is a movement that seeks to repair entire regional meat supply chains, and much work is underway by brave hardworking farmers, butchers, processors, chefs and cooks. Working to create the capacity…

The Essentials of Theory U offers a concise, accessible guide to the key concepts and applications in Otto Scharmer’s classic Theory U. Scharmer argues that our capacity to pay attention coshapes the world. What prevents us from attending to situations more effectively is that we aren’t fully aware of that interior condition from which our attention…

Do you want to be heard in the garden? Please consider contributing your audio content. We grow together when we nurture our network. Click here for more information.

The Intuitive Writing Podcast hosted by Elizabeth Perlman

This is an unedited transcript of s1e8 of the Intuitive Writing Podcast. ©2026 The Listen & Be Heard Network. all rights reserved.

00:00:00 – 00:00:28
Hello, and welcome to the Intuitive Writing Podcast, a production of the Intuitive Writing Project, a writing-based empowerment program for girls and gender expansive youth. We are dedicated to giving young writers a safe, encouraging, non-critical, unconditionally supportive space to write their story, speak their truth, and assert their voice, both as writers and as leaders.

00:00:29 – 00:01:21
For a bit of background, my name is Elizabeth and I created this program 11 years ago because it’s what I wanted and needed when I was young, a supportive place to be truly seen and heard. That’s why we use the Amherst writing method, a radically nurturing and empowering writing methodology I wish everyone learned in grade school. You can read more about the Amherst method on their website and in Pat Schneider’s groundbreaking book, Writing Alone and With Others. But the basic principles and the ones that guide all of our classes are number one, everyone is a writer with important stories to tell. Number two, everyone has their own unique voice, a voice that needs to be heard. And number three, our voice will grow stronger and clearer.

00:01:21 – 00:02:08
the more it is supported and positively affirmed. In our classes, everyone writes together, everyone shares their writing, and then everyone takes turns giving each other grounded, positive feedback. By that, I mean we repeat back and lift up the words, lines, phrases, or concepts that really resonated for us. Since we can’t violate the sanctity of our classes by reporting what goes on there, These one-on-one or three-people conversations are designed to provide a little glimpse, a microcosm of what happens in the classroom. You can also read about our org and read our students’ words as they were published on our blog, The Intuitive Voice, with the links below.

00:02:08 – 00:02:36
If you enjoy listening to one young reader read their words and talk about it, imagine how powerful it is when six young writers are reading their words and giving each other positive, affirming feedback. It’s pretty life-changing, and there’s a lot more I could say about it, but I’ll let these young writers speak for themselves. On behalf of all the writers at the Intuitive Writing Project, I want to thank you for supporting their voices.

00:02:36 – 00:03:34
for being present and really listening to the wisdom, insight, and brilliance of young people. Today I am so excited and honored and happy to be talking with our very own Caroline Hesby, who is going to be reading a beautiful piece that she wrote a year ago. We’ll start by introducing you, Caroline, if you would say your age, your pronouns, how long you’ve been writing with the Intuitive Writing Project, and if you have a story or a little anecdote about your first memory of writing a story when you were a kid. Yes, hello. I’m Caroline. I have she, her pronouns. I’m 19. I’m currently at University of Washington in Seattle. An early memory I have of writing goes back to when I was like six. I remember just writing a little short story in my room.

00:03:34 – 00:04:26
was called kate maxx and the big boat and it entailed a sibling duo on a boat journey and um yeah it was a big deal in my family i remember writing a lot after that um just to myself our little anecdotes but um ever since then i would say it’s been a part of my life so That is so cute. It’s so fascinating. The reason I ask everybody when they started writing is usually people who love writing, you start very early. And it’s like a precociousness around writing that is exceptional. Most kids don’t write until they absolutely have to write. But if you’re a writer, you start young. And you clearly started young. I love that.

00:04:26 – 00:04:56
When did you start? I can’t even remember now. Did you start your sophomore year or your junior year with us? Yeah, I started February of my sophomore year, so it was right before COVID started. Oh. And then we moved on to Zoom for a while. That’s right. That’s right. I think we had like one or two classes, and then it was on Zoom for two years. Yeah. You were a trooper. I should go through that.

00:04:56 – 00:05:53
um yeah and then you are writing you wrote all through high school and now you’re writing with us this summer which is so amazing and the piece that you were going to talk about today that we’re going to have you read and we’ll have a link to it the underneath um june 24th 2022 that was when um the supreme court overturned robie wade um that was the exact day i think that it happened and then we wrote about it a couple days later so I was going to see if you could read it for us. Yes. Okay. Yesterday I had a conversation with a friend who’s trying to get birth control. I stood next to her in line at a counter service restaurant exchanging the side effect horror stories that have passed by our ears, deciding between haunting hormonal changes or unwanted pregnancies, bearing the weight of choosing a doomed fate, just because we want to date.

00:05:53 – 00:06:23
knowing he could get with a million women and walk weightless down the street. We sigh and share a disappointed laugh in the name of celibacy. They don’t even have to think about it, I say. A female frustration fills the space of the car and there’s a simultaneous drop in the stomach, a surrendering of muscle, a blank, foggy stare. Today confirms what I feel as a teenage girl surrounded by the degrading, dehumanizing whispers of male peers, that I am woman.

00:06:23 – 00:07:22
and I am seen firstly as woman, firstly as female, as uterus, as mother, as expected mother, as only a mother, something to bed, something to wed, a Saturday night, an option, as waste, as slut, as womb, as wife, as weak, as baby carrier, as vessel, as a means to an end, as sinner, as less than, as object to be kept pure, innocent until useful, as machine, before I am just person. It’s a world where the tragic stories of millions of women are still swept under rugs, under male voices, under pressures and underlies. A world where birth trauma silently haunts mothers. A world where confident, capable women must give up dreams to fall to a future that was chosen for her. A world where sex education is discouraged.

00:07:22 – 00:07:50
and the same naive children are punished and ridiculed and unsupported once the consequences of the adults’ decisions transpires. Today a girl my age has her future ripped away from her, a future that dense layers and generations of women fought and died for. Today a girl my age has looked in the eye and told that her autonomy is meaningless, has been deleted, was never hers and never will be.

00:07:50 – 00:08:19
that the hours she spent head down in her textbooks, head up in the hallway, blinking tears away from prejudice, from shame, from abuse, the job she worked after school, that the time she was brave, and the time she persevered, that the time she was told she could not, but she did, have dissolved into dust at her feet. And all that remains is the outline of her body, the shadow of her abdomen, the mocking laugh of her oppressive fate.

00:08:20 – 00:08:50
Yesterday I drove in silence with my friend to the sound of our favorite music and the noise of the busy streets. Loudest was the silence after we detailed the laundry list of Nexplanon, IUD, birth controls, pills, side effects. Gain 60 pounds, lose your hair, lose any speck of libido that hasn’t already been liquefied by merciless men. Lose sleep, lose self, lose and lose some more. A protective task that feels pointless.

00:08:50 – 00:09:19
This pile of bricks sitting on a girl’s shoulders. The fear, the guilt, the pain, the pain. I didn’t want to break her heart more, but when we locked eyes, I knew she heard my defeated whisper that this battle would never be victorious for us. That men will roll over like sacks of potatoes, ugly and heavy, with empty words and careless hearts, cruel ignorance and betraying indifference. And we must tiptoe around sex like a field of nails.

00:09:19 – 00:09:48
hoping not to be stabbed, flesh hesitating to relax amongst the blades, untrusting of trust, that in this two-part act we walk alone. Today I understand that the battle was already over, and our uteruses sat bleeding on metal stakes in the ground, slathered with the handprints of measly old men. Today I understand that when I stand in the eyes of males, I am hunted, chased in a daze of hunger.

00:09:48 – 00:10:18
Chased with intent to be killed. Oh my god. It’s so powerful. So beautiful. This may be the most powerful summary of the female experience in patriarchy I have ever heard in my life. So beautiful. Part of me wants to scream, part of me wants to weep. It’s so incredible what you have done with language to articulate something that most of us feel but can’t articulate.

00:10:18 – 00:10:45
I think the thing about this that’s most impactful, I mean, I know I’ve read this before and heard it before, but hearing it this time, it was so clear that it’s not just about abortion rights. And in fact, abortion rights is not about abortion rights. It’s just a symptom of a much deeper cultural-wide misogyny, this hatred of women.

00:10:45 – 00:11:44
this idea that women have to be controlled. And it’s in every aspect of life. And I feel like the writer did such an incredible job of expressing it, the complexity of it, and how it is everywhere. I want to jump towards the end. The second to last paragraph was, oh, that was the mic drop, mic drop, mic drop. But when the writer was talking about the horrible, quote, laundry list of symptoms, side effects, from actually trying to prevent a pregnancy. And then there was that line, um, lose and lose some more. It’s just this constant chipping away of the self. And that, that line, um, I knew she heard my defeated whisper that this battle would never be victorious for us. That they’re basically, as women, we must tiptoe around sex like a field of nails.

00:11:44 – 00:13:08
hoping not to be stabbed. This is all aspects of life. This is not just around sexuality. It’s every single part of life this is true for the female experience. I want to go back to the very beginning. I love how the writer started with a story, taking us into this moment between two girls. I think I mean, we’ve talked about this so many times, but humans are so deeply affected by storytelling way more than facts. If there was just a bulleted list of facts, it would have been impressive, but not nearly as impactful as telling this as a story, a story about two girls are trying to get, talking about birth control and all the dangers of sex and how men don’t have to worry about any of it. There’s no consequences for men, which is why then of course later on there’s all these great references to how men are just like imposing their will because it has zero impact on them and 100% all the impact, all the danger, all the pain, all the suffering is carried by women. I also just blown away

00:13:08 – 00:13:36
The second paragraph, when the writer reduces women to how we have been seen and treated, it basically just rolls as a uterus, as mother, as expected mother, oh my gosh, as a Saturday night, an option, a waist, a slut, a womb, a wife, as weak as a baby carrier, as a vessel.

00:13:36 – 00:14:05
Like every single one of those lines, I think any woman who reads this would feel the truth of it in her soul, whether or not she would ever have thought of these beautiful words. Every line in this is incredible. But before I say anything else, I wanted to ask you about your creative process in writing this. When you started, you obviously knew what your theme was going to be, but did you have a sense, did you know it was going to come out the way it did?

00:14:05 – 00:14:36
And this is kind of a bigger question about your creative process in general. When you start writing, how much do you know before you start? And how much is sort of a discovery process? Yeah, I would honestly say in general, when I go to write, I have little to no idea where it’s going to take me. And yeah, I mean, that’s kind of the exciting part.

00:14:36 – 00:15:37
There’ll be a general idea or theme or feeling, but often I just kind of let myself go wherever I want to go. With this piece, I would say the same. There was no, like, in terms of structure or really, you know, design, like, no real goal, especially because I wrote this at such a time when my feelings and thoughts were so raw, it was like, especially easy to just kind of let my pen kind of go because, you know, I probably had so many feelings just kind of sitting, you know, in my mind, and this is just how they came out. And also,

00:15:37 – 00:16:06
with this piece in particular, it was genuinely based on like a real anecdote, like a real experience, a real conversation I had had recently. So that allowed me to kind of sandwich the conversation between a real experience I had. So I could start with that and then kind of see where that led me in a more general sense. That’s interesting. That’s interesting. It does help to have that.

00:16:06 – 00:16:59
story as sort of like an entry point. And then you can go from there. I mean, this is just such a tribute to your talent and genius as a writer that like, it just pours out of you. Like these words, every line in this, it’s written as a narrative piece, but honestly we could throw in a bunch of line breaks and it would be a poem. It’s so poetic. Every line, Like, oh my gosh, treating women as an object to be kept pure, innocent until useful, as machine before I am just person. Poetry. All of this is poems. I mean, you are a poet. You write incredible poetry, but even your narrative pieces have poetry in them. And I think it’s so incredible.

00:17:00 – 00:17:29
again, your talent as a writer, that each paragraph flows into the next as if you had planned it out in advance. I think that at a certain point, would you say that in all the years that you’ve been writing, you sort of developed an intuition, this is intuitive writing, so I think there’s an intuition about writing, that you’ve developed an intuition where you don’t actually have to think about it, but just naturally things kind of organize themselves.

00:17:29 – 00:18:58
as you move through the ideas in a piece, they’re kind of self-organizing. Like this, I feel like anybody who wasn’t a writer would have had to labor over this piece for days and they would have had to do an outline and they would have had to maybe erase things and do all these arrows to suggest to move things in different places and yours just fell into place perfectly. So yeah, I guess my question is, do you feel like the arrangement of the flow of information comes out organically, intuitively? I would say yes and no. After I would say the structure of our class itself kind of allows that to happen knowing that I have to wrap it up at a certain point almost like a very vague path forward knowing I’m kind of on a time schedule and I’m like all right, you know, I could go off on much longer tangents if I had them. But it’s like, all right, what do you really want to say? What are your main points? What do you really want to like drill in here? And how are you going to, you know, take it and wrap it back up? And well, obviously I could have the freedom to kind of, you know, end it in a place where it wasn’t really finished, but it must be just ingrained in me somewhere to kind of, I mean,

00:18:58 – 00:20:30
feel like I want to kind of wrap it up and end it on a note that’s gonna just kind of nail in the the theme. But that’s not to say that, you know, I’m sitting there writing, and with like, one change of a sentence, I could have gone in a totally different direction. And I like things where, you know, there’s an infinite amount of options that could have happened with this piece. And it just happened to go in this way and be structured in this way and it’s like especially with this piece where there’s you know so much content to be talked about um i feel like i could take a lot of these sentences and write a whole new piece just you know with the aspect of it so there’s certainly like while it feels like uh a complete piece just because of the way I sandwiched it with real life anecdotes. From my perspective, I can see things that could have been easily changed. When I look at it, there’s still a large array of possibilities that still exist in it, if that makes sense. That’s so interesting. Yeah. And by the way, I know it is hard to

00:20:30 – 00:20:58
as a writer to ever feel like something is finished because you can always revise it. But I do think, yeah, every single line is like a sliding doors moment where you could take from each line, you could spin off a whole other piece. They could go in any direction or just drill deeper. Every line contains the potential for more to go further and to write something else. I love that. And I love what you said about the time constraint.

00:20:58 – 00:21:51
I’m trying to remember I think with when we were around the time that you wrote this piece I think we were writing for like about an hour like 50 minutes to an hour generally every week which is exceptional I have to say most of our classes girls are pretty comfortable and feel finished after 30 minutes and your class was very exceptional, very advanced writers. And so everyone was very easily filled an hour. So an hour is, on one hand, it sounds really long, especially for younger writers who maybe would prefer 10 minutes or 20 minutes. An hour sounds really long, but it’s also short and you do have to tie it up. You do have to, you’re like, oh my God, I’m running out of time. And I got to bring this to a close and you want to have some kind of incredible ending.

00:21:51 – 00:22:21
So that’s interesting. It kind of does that having a limited time sort of forces you to go through that heroine’s journey quicker, like you got to have a beginning and a middle and an end. Whereas if you were writing on your own, although it sounds like your first story was also the heroine’s journey naturally, but I think any one of us who writes on our own, if we’re working on a longer story or something, it can go on forever because there’s no time frame.

00:22:21 – 00:23:14
So I’ve heard this so many times, people say that limitation breeds creativity. Yes. If you are unlimited, it’s almost like you’re more likely to get stuck. Or give up. Or give up! Trail off and did nothing. Right. It’s really discouraging when you have all the time in the world, you know, that puts the pressure of having to come up with something that you were given that much time to create. It’s like. Right. It better be amazing because I worked on it for 500 hours. Yeah. Right. No, that’s true. There’s like a practicality to having like a time limit. And I think, yeah, I would encourage anyone who is just getting started on writing.

00:23:14 – 00:23:42
obviously don’t tell yourself you’re going to write for an hour because that’s going to feel overwhelming. Anne Lamont in her famous and brilliant book Bird by Bird said just write enough to fill a little, a small little square that would fit in a picture frame, like five minutes of writing a day and start with that and build up. But as we learned in the beginning of this episode, this particular writer has been writing for years, so your writing muscle is so strong that an hour flies.

00:23:42 – 00:24:12
And this piece was written in an hour. When you wrote this piece, I feel like this is pretty close to the original. I know you could, you could infinitely edit it. We could all infinitely edit our work. But I think this is, this was somewhat close to the first version. You edited it before you submitted it to me. But this, it kind of came out in this form, right? Yeah, there was no major edits or revisions.

00:24:12 – 00:25:10
I am pretty sure. Yeah. I mean, there’s certainly like could be with just small things, but. Oh, I think it’s it’s great. Don’t touch it. It’s great. Yeah, I think the other piece of this and you mentioned this earlier is that when you were writing about this, you felt very strong emotion about it. And this is something that I think is one of your gifts as a writer is you’re able to take emotional pain and describe it metaphorically, often using nature metaphors, but like all kinds of objects that you use to describe physical pain. And it makes it visceral, and it makes it like everyone can understand what you’re talking about. Like at the very end, talking about, I understand that when I stand in the eyes of males, I am haunted.

00:25:10 – 00:25:36
Chased in a daze of hunger, chased with intent to kill. Like this is coming from an emotional experience that I as well, many women feel this experience of being kind of prey, objects that were always in danger, but I couldn’t have explained it. That emotion is really hard to put into words. Like I’m scared.

00:25:36 – 00:26:29
That’s not very helpful, but saying that I am haunted, chased in a daze of hunger and then chased with the intent to be killed. That’s misogyny right there. But you didn’t have to say misogyny. You said the metaphors just are incredible. And there’s a lot of like the flesh hesitating to relax amongst the blades. There’s a lot of violent images which perfectly capture what we experience emotionally and psychically and energetically and physically on every level and every aspect of life when you’re female presenting in the world. It’s really not safe and you’ve captured that. There’s so much power in writing from the heart, from emotion, in our culture, misogynistic culture, of course.

00:26:29 – 00:27:25
does not value emotion, but actually so many scientists and philosophers and Brene Brown, many people talk about the power of emotions that they have intelligence in them and that they recognize our emotions help us recognize injustice and violations and we need to listen to our emotions. So I love that the writer really spoke from that place. It’s emotion, but it’s not emotional. It’s the emotional intelligence, I think, of the piece. This is just incredible. Okay, so the last thing I wanted to ask you, and this is the big meta question for all writers, because we all get stuck at certain points. Sometimes we get stuck before we even start, like you think you had an idea and then you realize it wasn’t really an idea and you got nothing, or you are halfway in and you feel like you lose the flow and you don’t know what to do.

00:27:25 – 00:28:28
What do you do to work through those moments when you don’t have an idea or you’re just creatively stuck? Yeah. Um, it can be really tough. Certainly happens to me a lot. I think, for me, I do do a lot of poetry, which is, this piece is definitely, you know, more towards one theme than I usually go for and like the structure is definitely different than what I usually go for. And I think that’s because a lot of the time when I go out to write, I take a lot of inspiration from just like my five senses almost. I almost feel like breaking my thoughts and feelings down to like, literally, you know, what am I seeing? What can I touch? What can I, you know, all

00:28:28 – 00:29:32
the senses that are like your most simple experiences actually have a lot of meaning in them, I feel. So a lot of the time, I set out to write poetry, you know, when, when I don’t have an initial idea or feeling that’s already something I want to write about. You know, write, you know, what you can hear at the time or write what you, you know, is there like a scent in the air that’s like um just like your senses i feel like have so much power in writing because uh they’re so like accessible and just truthful and i think uh that’s really like you know what i feel is the core of a good piece of writing is a just like truth and b

00:29:32 – 00:30:38
uh you know things that are really tangible but simultaneously i think those things are really uh you know like special and and i don’t know what the word would be but like uh magical and like those things are deep too even though they’re just these simple little you know feelings and so if you were to get stuck i mean maybe that’s more advice for if you you know, don’t have an initial idea. Just kind of take it down to those simple kind of human like experiences. And I just love writing about sensory experiences. So a lot of my poetry is based on those things. And I almost feel like in writing, we can get a little carried away with trying to be, you know,

00:30:38 – 00:31:43
too philosophical and too, uh, it can get a little vague with what we’re really trying to convey, even though, I guess my point would be like big feelings can be conveyed in really simple ways. And, um, I don’t know if this is exactly advice for getting stuck in the middle of the piece, but I guess if you’re feeling stuck and you’re like, where am I going to go with this? I’m not making sense. Like you’re always going to make sense if you’re talking about, you know, those really simple senses or even just like, you know, describing where you are, describing a scene, describing an image you have. That’s where I often go to. I would say like in the middle of a piece, like the one I read where it’s a little more, you know, not just talking about a scene or an image or like simple things.

00:31:44 – 00:32:47
I mean, maybe it’s easier said than done for other people or many people to try to come back to their own feelings and own experiences. But I think you’re always going to be able to kind of describe how you feel, even in basic ways. Or, you know, I started with this anecdote, which is just like, this actually happened to me, like, I’m able to just you know, kind of narrate that as it was. And I can take the pressure away from trying to be, you know, really fancy and really deep in like a cool way. Like, yeah. So if that makes sense. That all makes sense. It’s so beautiful. I was jotting down several of the things you said, cause it’s so brilliant. It’s a really deep,

00:32:47 – 00:34:13
and profound insight that simple things and sensory details are magical and sacred and poetic and moving. And I think you’re right. I think everybody feels like because perhaps that we maybe spent a lot of time in high school studying people like Shakespeare, fancy schmancy, 18th century poets that write in a very fancy way that we think that our writing has to be that way. And it’s not true at all. Actually, don’t feel any connection to the classics. I feel much more of a connection to writing like what you do that is sensory and coming from personal experience and also simple. I think we underestimate the power of simple. I mean, what is simple? But simply described things carry a whole there’s like a word that contains volumes is what pops into my mind. Like a simple phrase can go so deep to the heart in a way that a highfalutin fancy phrase doesn’t because half the time people are like, what does that even mean? So I love what you said that you want it to be both the truth and also accessible. So that line,

00:34:13 – 00:35:13
wrote down while you were speaking, you’re always going to make sense if you speak about your own personal experience and include sensory details. It’s going to make sense and it’s going to be deep and it’s going to be powerful because being alive is deep and powerful. So it just is that when it comes out on the page. And I love how you said to try to come back to your own experiences and describe how you feel and Don’t try to make it fancy. Just say it in a basic way and it’ll be deep. It’ll be profound. I always think of, I can’t remember who said that, but the idea that if you speak the truth, it will always be powerful. And I think so many times people lie because they think the truth isn’t that interesting. And it’s like, no, the truth is so much actually always more interesting than anything that we can come up with.

00:35:13 – 00:36:42
Yeah, I think that’s great advice. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, I was just reminded like the other day in class, we went off to write and I was a little lost because sometimes you have like an immediate idea and you’re like, I want to write about this. Sometimes you’re truly kind of in the dark and I, you know, there is a lot of starting something, scribbling it out multiple times and there’s certainly frustration and the other week at class I was like okay I keep writing these things I keep stopping like what is it that I like I’m really feeling right now what is it I could really talk about and like mean it and it would be important to me and I kind of saw that the theme and what I kept going to write was like based around fear and based around, um, just feelings of fear that day for whatever reason. And, you know, I was frustrated that I wasn’t coming up with an incredibly insightful and unique, like, piece of writing about it. And I’m like, all right, I’m just gonna like, you know, I’m just gonna write, I’m scared of this blank. And, um, and so I wrote a whole three page piece. I mean,

00:36:42 – 00:37:11
Frankly, it was probably more like a journal entry than a piece of writing, but a journal entry can be a piece of writing. And I just wrote all these things I’m scared of and just breaking it down to what was really at the core of what I was trying to say was really helpful. And it doesn’t mean it’s less valuable because it has less metaphors and less cool writing techniques. Yeah.

00:37:11 – 00:38:10
And I can testify, that piece that you wrote blew me away. It was so powerful. And oh my God, that’s a whole other podcast. We could talk about that. But I think when you speak from the heart, there’s a famous line, what comes from the heart goes to the heart. When you speak from the heart, I feel it in my heart. And of course, what is personal is almost always universal. And so when the writer was just speaking, I don’t want to say, plainly because I feel like plain sounds negative, simply. When you were just speaking simply of your truth and it came out as poetry, it felt poetic and it’s so resonant. And actually it wasn’t just me, everyone in the class was like, oh my God, I feel the same. Yes, yes, all of those things, all the fears that the writer had, everyone in the room agreed. So it was incredible. And to your point, it was simple.

00:38:10 – 00:38:40
but so impactful. And I also really like how you said, and I do the same thing, and I think this is such good advice that you’re modeling, and that is that when you start getting tangled up in a piece, sometimes I get tangled up in my words and I have to stop and say, wait a second, what am I trying to say here? What is the true thing that’s coming forward? And that’s what you did. You were like, what needs to come out? Because that’s like the deeper.

00:38:40 – 00:40:14
the deeper idea behind all this and I can’t prove it, but I feel that there are certain things that need to be expressed and need to be written. And they almost have a life force of their own. They’ve got it, they’re inside of us and they’ve got to come out. So it’s almost like a getting out of the way to let them come through. And I feel like that’s what you did when you were like, what am I trying to say? It was like this accumulation of stuff that I mean, it was kind of like a lifetime of fears that needed to get out. And that’s the other thing, of course, about writing is that it is so cathartic that when you can write about an emotion, a painful emotion, and put it into words, it dials down the pain of it or the intensity, because it’s like you’ve made sense of it by putting it into words. In fact, I think we did talk about that. I remember asking you, did it feel like, the intensity of the fears got dialed down just a smidge by the very act of writing about them. Yeah, for sure. And I think, I don’t know, there’s something that is a little bit reassuring about putting it on paper, seeing it, and almost like imagining that if you weren’t the author and you were reading that, like how

00:40:14 – 00:41:41
I mean this doesn’t really make sense but if you were reading that from somebody else you’d be like that makes sense like it’s not this big scary dark horrible thing that’s just haunting this one person like this is a universal experience that is collectively haunting us all if you will yes you know it becomes like simply put that you know you’re not alone in it and you know you assume if somebody read that sentence that it wouldn’t be too crazy to them so why is it like you know freaking you out this much it’s just it almost allows you the opportunity to connect with other people on it and knowing that is reassuring almost yeah right because you know we actually talked about this when i was talking with kelly that because of the structure of the quest you know that everyone in the same way you listen to what is beautiful and relatable in other people’s work that other people are doing the same thing when they’re listening to yours and so it actually helps us be more I think have more empathy for ourselves because we’re like oh it’s just a story that other people understand and relate to it’s not some boogeyman it’s just an experience everybody understands everyone’s with me and I love how you said that if you were hearing this story from someone else your response would be

00:41:41 – 00:42:27
Oh, of course. I understand. I know how that feels. Exactly. Yeah. I love writing. It’s such a powerful tool for self-empathy, I think. I’ll be really mad at myself for something until I start writing about it. And then in the process of writing it, I think, oh. I think it almost takes it. Like they always say, if you talk about yourself in third person, it can be easier to be kind to yourself. And I think it’s the same thing applies to writing. When you put it out on the page, it becomes like a separate from you in a way. It’s on the page. And so it’s easier to look at it and have compassion for it. Yeah, totally. Yeah. That is so beautiful. Caroline.

00:42:27 – 00:42:52
You are so wonderful to talk to. I honestly feel like I could talk with you all day about writing. This is my favorite thing to talk about. Thank you so much for your time and your wisdom and sharing your incredibly brave and powerful and needed words in the world. Yeah, just keep shining your light. It’s so powerful. Thank you.

Thoughts on June 24, 2022 with Caroline Hesby

For our eighth podcast, listen to 19-year-old Caroline Hesby read and discuss her brilliant, feminist piece, “June 24, 2022,” in conversation with TIWP founder, Elizabeth Perlman.  
 
Beginning with a conversation on reproductive rights and the chronic dangers of being female,* this is also a discussion about the creative writing process:  the power of writing from the heart and speaking our truth in a simple way, trusting that what is simple is also deep—and will ripple outward, resonating with everyone who hears it. 

The psychologist Carl R. Rogers once said, “what is most personal is most universal,” and that has certainly be our experience, in every one of our writing classes. This is why writing also cultivates empathy, both for ourselves and others, helping us to regard the world with greater understanding and compassion. 

* This episode explores adult themes and may not be suitable for children.  
 
You can read Caroline’s words on our blog, The Intuitive Voice: https://intuitivevoice.org/2022/06/28/june-24-2022/ 

To learn more about The Intuitive Writing Project, visit us at: 
https://www.intuitivewritingproject.com/ 

Thank you for your time and presence, supporting the voices of girls and gender-expansive youth! 

Elizabeth has a BA in Media Arts and a Masters in Transformative Arts, the study of creative expression for healing, connection, and growth. She is also a certified Group Leader in The Amherst Writing Method. Before launching TIWP in 2013, Elizabeth worked for over a decade as a graphic designer and art director in the advertising industry.

Word Magic: The Power of Writing to Reframe Your Story & Reclaim Your Intuition by Elizabeth Perlman is a self-help book that uses writing as a tool for self-discovery, healing, and empowerment, drawing from her “Intuitive Writing Project” for women and girls. It offers practical guidance and over 150 writing prompts to help readers trust themselves, reframe negative narratives, and find their inner wisdom through…

This compilation of 27 poems was written over the course of 25 years, from 1998 to 2023. (The title is reflects the author’s extreme delay in sharing her work—and yes, that is a unicorn finger puppet, taking time to smell the azealas!) The main theme of every poem is self-empowerment: remembering who we really are and reclaiming our innocence, our freedom and our joy. A…

CREDITS– HOST & PRODUCER: Elizabeth Perlman. FEATURED GUEST: Caroline Hesby. Hosted by Listen & Be Heard Network.

Tony Robles visits San Francisco’s Filipino American International Book Festival, while the Audio Garden brings together Indigenous voices, musical memory, and poetry.

This week in the Audio Garden, we feature Tony Robles speaking with authors at San Francisco’s Filipino American International Book Festival and some poetry, live music, Indigenous voices, and archival recordings, connecting creative expression with cultural memory, listening and being heard.

Tony’s conversations reveal the many forms representation can take. CC Dador discusses a young adult romantic comedy that imagines a Filipino American family in the White House, with a first daughter hoping for an ordinary summer. Mia P. Manansala shares how her culinary mysteries bring readers into a family-owned Filipino restaurant, where memorable characters, food, and recipes introduce readers to a culture they may not yet know.

Randy Ribay joins Tony for a conversation about book banning and the consequences of restricting access to stories. He discusses how censorship can separate young readers from books that help them understand themselves and others, while reducing authors’ opportunities to connect with schools and libraries. His message to concerned parents begins with reading a book in its full context—and recognizing the difference between choosing for one’s own child and deciding what everyone else may read.

Playwright Conrad Panganiban describes a creative practice rooted in humor, heart, and family. He reflects on theater as a shared experience of history, language, and culture—and on giving Filipino American performers opportunities to portray their own communities.

The second half of the hour opens into live music, poetry, and recorded voices. An excerpt from a John Coltrane centennial celebration at Marcus Garvey Park features music by Craig Harris and fellow musicians. Indigenous voices, including Billy Mills, bring questions of justice, cultural inheritance, and young people’s dreams into the mix, while archival recordings of Zora Neale Hurston connect storytelling with listening and preserving memory.

Poetry by Martha Cinader and Tony Robles moves through the musical landscape, including Tony’s tribute to Nina Simone. The episode closes with a reflection on regional food systems and resilience, bringing us back to the garden and the relationships that sustain our communities.

00;00;21;01 – 00;00;29;00
Speaker 1
As the sound enters my inner ear and vibrates through my inner plane, my biosphere.

00;00;29;03 – 00;00;33;24
Speaker 2
Part of me learning to be a better listener of others is learning to listen to myself.

00;00;33;25 – 00;00;44;04
Speaker 3
When we are listened to, truly listen to you know you can feel when someone’s deeply listening and we feel heard, we are healed in that moment.

00;00;44;05 – 00;00;51;13
Speaker 4
Listen and be heard. Even if your voice shakes without knowing it, you may be saving a stranger.

00;00;51;15 – 00;01;12;01
Speaker 1
Listen and be heard is. I guess, part of why I want to connect with you for the series. You said that it like stuck caught on myself. Welcome to the Audio Garden where we cultivate our collective wisdom, nurture creativity, and spread love.

00;01;12;04 – 00;01;49;02
Speaker 5
My name is Martha, Senator, and this is. Listen and be heard. Welcome back, my friends. I’m so glad to be here with you again today. And there’s so much going on in the garden. There’s so many bees buzzing around this beautiful bush. Of tiny daisy like flowers. And I see all the variety of bug life busy around as I’m walking through on this beautiful sunny day.

00;01;49;05 – 00;02;30;16
Speaker 5
And we will be joined by Tony Robles, speaking with participants in the Filipino American International Book Festival that recently happened in San Francisco. And also, we’re going to celebrate more of our indigenous neighbors, participants in our communities, and even our own indigeneity here as people on Earth today. So we’re going to get to all that. But first, a poem.

00;02;30;19 – 00;02;39;02
Speaker 5
This is Preston, forward on piano. Dante psoriasis on drums.

00;02;39;09 – 00;03;34;20
Speaker 6
All the way. Another way. Left in darkness. The absence of sight. Making it light of. Made invisible on the official record. When actually the way it was is will be back. Better to butter the burnt toast. Smothered the roast with your special gravy. You don’t share to the recipe. There is no we see, we feel, we pray for legs, not for begging is part of the art of capital W, for we for the way the only lovely folded in from where no one cares.

00;03;34;24 – 00;04;02;18
Speaker 6
Over there where we are not the way it’s always. We’ve been, we’re not always was the thing to sing a brand new melody. To dum dum. Your love is stained with the blueberry pie I am. All the ways that we are, have never will be. Come on, let’s go. No, we don’t want one. For what we don’t need.

00;04;02;21 – 00;04;35;29
Speaker 6
And we nothing. Always.

00;04;36;02 – 00;04;54;18
Speaker 5
We’re going to go now. From the garden gate. To the Golden Gate, where Tony Robles is in conversation with participants in the Filipino American Book Festival taking place in San Francisco.

00;04;54;24 – 00;05;17;19
Speaker 7
This is listening to Be Heard radio for readers and writers. This is Tony Robles. I’m in San Francisco for the Filipino American International Book Festival. We are with CC de Dora and she is an author of two books, Stars Stripes and Summer nights and the brand new Mary Xmas X being spelled E x CC Dada. Welcome to listen and be heard.

00;05;17;19 – 00;05;19;11
Speaker 7
Radio. Tell us about your books.

00;05;19;13 – 00;05;42;03
Speaker 8
Hi. Well, thank you so much for having me. Well, they’re both holiday rom coms. I will say that the summer one is my young adult book Under Celeste the Door, and that one is like a Gilmore Girls meets the summer I turn pretty teen summer romance. And it’s about a first daughter. She’s a daughter of a. I have to say this because it’s the Filipino American book fest.

00;05;42;03 – 00;06;09;12
Speaker 8
She’s the daughter of the first Filipino American president. And she just wants a normal teen summer. And so she has this whole bucket list. She meets this photographer, and just all high jinks ensue. So it’s like a really sweet and fun romance because it did come out around the America 250 celebrations. I just love to kind of point out that this book, in this time, you know, has a Filipino family in the white House.

00;06;09;16 – 00;06;34;24
Speaker 8
It has, you know, themes of public service and, you know, first generation immigrants and so forth. Them all. Absolutely. This is a fun loving rom com that’s good for all ages. I do love thinking that in in this 2026, when we’re celebrating 250th birthday of the nation that we have, you know, different American stories that are on the bookshelves.

00;06;35;01 – 00;06;44;17
Speaker 7
We have a wonderful writer, Mia manning. She is the writer of cozy mysteries. Mia, thank you for taking the time to talk with us. Tell us about yourself and about your books.

00;06;44;20 – 00;06;46;18
Speaker 1
I went so I mean, she.

00;06;46;20 – 00;06;48;26
Speaker 8
Her pronouns. So I was born and raised in Chicago.

00;06;48;27 – 00;06;57;03
Speaker 9
I wrote a cozy mystery. I write for young adults as well. Teens. And I have an adult cozy fantasy coming out next year as well.

00;06;57;04 – 00;07;10;11
Speaker 7
What’s really striking about the books are the titles. I live in North Carolina. I picked up Homicide in Halo Halo. So I think three of your five books are in our our library. Tell us how you come up with your titles.

00;07;10;14 – 00;07;24;21
Speaker 9
For those who are not aware. Cozy and mystery is like a subgenre of mystery where I call them like hallmark. Movies with dead bodies essentially means that there’s no graphic violence, sex, or profanity on the page. So I’m basically like, for my mom, I don’t know who. My mom’s a big reader. I don’t have to worry about that kind of a thing.

00;07;24;23 – 00;07;45;05
Speaker 9
And in Cozy Mystery, it’s very common to have some sort of calling it a gimmick. Makes it kind of makes its own cheap. But like, basically there’s something like crafting one. So we’re, like I said, around like a knitting shop or like culinary cozy, which I do, or my books are centered around a family owned Filipino restaurant. And so it’s very common for cozy Mystery to have, like, pun titles.

00;07;45;07 – 00;08;04;12
Speaker 9
You know, it’s kind of hard to pun with Filipino food. And so so I took the idea of I read so many mysteries, I’m very familiar with it. And the titling things, I was like, oh, okay, let me do something kind of simple, like alliterative crime word and Filipino food. So arsenic and a homicide. And so all of them kind of fit that pattern.

00;08;04;14 – 00;08;13;00
Speaker 9
That made it easier and made it like really stand out and distinctive. And because my books have recipes in them. It also helped guide, like what kind of recipes that I include.

00;08;13;02 – 00;08;21;04
Speaker 7
I know that though a Filipino audience or film audience is really important to you. What’s been the reaction to like a non Filipino reader?

00;08;21;06 – 00;08;38;25
Speaker 9
So really, they’ve been overwhelmingly kind. There are every once in a while you get they’re like, oh, what is this? But those are not the people I’m writing for. Right. It’s very gratifying. I’ve got lots of readers who are like, oh man, after reading your books, I searched the nearest Filipino restaurant and some of them are like, okay, like I live in a small town.

00;08;38;29 – 00;08;57;22
Speaker 9
Even though your books have recipes, I don’t have access to those ingredients. But I was able to find a Filipino restaurant maybe an hour drive away. So I went with my. And it’s like, really? It’s really cool introducing people to Filipino food, something that they had never maybe had an interest in or like, didn’t really think about before.

00;08;57;25 – 00;09;07;17
Speaker 9
Yeah. And then just by reading my murder mysteries, I introduced them to a part of the culture that’s hugely important to me, and that they were able to fall in love with it, too, just based on my writing.

00;09;07;18 – 00;09;18;04
Speaker 7
Well, the characters are memorable and we’re totally invested. There’s a cinematic quality in all of this as a movie, perhaps forthcoming in the next couple of years.

00;09;18;07 – 00;09;35;15
Speaker 9
I actually I had a film option before, so I had a production company who was interested in turning into like a limited series. They had optioned it. They had it for a few years. They read it and unfortunately, well, one, it’s already so rare for it to happen anyway. So it’s like a 1 in 1,000,000 kind of a thing.

00;09;35;17 – 00;09;59;27
Speaker 9
So I knew that going in, but also that like it looked like it was getting traction. But then the writers strike happened and that kind of like pushed things back a little bit. And then by the time things started moving again, the production company who owned the rights that bought out by one of the bigger ones, I can’t remember if it was like Lionsgate or like one of the bigger production companies bought them out, and when they merged, they dropped a ton of projects.

00;09;59;28 – 00;10;10;02
Speaker 9
And unfortunately my project was one of the ones that got dropped. So yeah, so like I got my rights back, which is great, but we’ll have to see if we can find another interested party in getting it.

00;10;10;04 – 00;10;39;28
Speaker 10
Once it’s heard, it can’t be unheard. Once it’s published, it’s not going to be unpublished. Once you read the palm, you can’t read it. No matter how an individual may try to push it to the side, get about it. It’s still in there. And it’s the words, the meeting, the feelings behind it are taking root in their psyche and they can’t get rid of it.

00;10;40;01 – 00;11;03;28
Speaker 7
Randy Ribeye is with us. He’s an author of the new young adult novel Nest of Tongues, among other books. Randy, welcome to Listen and Be Heard radio for readers and writers. You did a presentation earlier about banned books. Talk to us about that issue. Is that so important, particularly now? Yeah. Well, thanks for having me here first. We hear about banned people like, oh, yeah, that’s been going on for a long time.

00;11;04;01 – 00;11;24;19
Speaker 7
What a lot of people don’t realize, especially outside of like, the kid lit writing community or the librarian community is just how bad it’s gotten recently. Right? That in the last few years, since 2020, the number of books that get challenged, meaning somebody from the community says this book is not appropriate. Has just increased by thousands. Right.

00;11;24;21 – 00;11;55;20
Speaker 7
And and according to recent data, last school year alone, there were over 12,000 or around 12,000 different book bands throughout the country in schools of libraries. And the difference between a challenge and a band is a challenge. Is somebody saying, hey, this is inappropriate, a ban is action being taken? Right. It’s either the the book is removed from curriculum or it’s removed from a library or a bookstore, or it’s banned from school grounds, or it’s put behind an age restricted section.

00;11;55;26 – 00;12;27;11
Speaker 7
So anything like that. So over 12,000 instances. See, and there’s a there’s a lot of misconceptions along with this. One is that people think it’s it’s individual parents who are concerned and issuing these challenges. Women reality, they’re mostly coming from politicians, board members and groups like moms for Liberty that compile lists of books that are that are disproportionately by or about people of color or queer people and then issued, you know, massive amounts of challenges all at once.

00;12;27;13 – 00;12;44;13
Speaker 7
You know, another misconception that we were talking about was the idea that people like, oh, well, it could book then increase in sales because it brings attention to it. Yeah. And that’s just not true for if as majority of books that can band. Yeah. You know, it happens every now and then to your book like Mouse or Bluest Eye that’s already well known.

00;12;44;19 – 00;13;05;10
Speaker 7
That gets that. It gets that press buzz when it happens. But for most books they just disappear, right? They just they just don’t appear on the shelves anymore. They get taken out of the curriculum or and, you know, consequentially, as an author, your book sales might plummet. You know, especially like kid lit authors, we make a lot of income or not.

00;13;05;12 – 00;13;28;14
Speaker 7
Not a lot. But yeah, we make some had come by speaking at schools and libraries and people whose books get banned just don’t get those opportunities anymore. Or people who write books that might be banned of a lot of times the librarian or people usually in charge of organizing those things might be afraid of community pushback if they invite a certain author to come speak at their school.

00;13;28;14 – 00;13;36;12
Speaker 7
So some authors, like in particular authors that talk a lot about racism or queerness, just don’t get a lot of invites anymore.

00;13;36;15 – 00;14;12;00
Speaker 11
I live in a part of the country that, you know, I live in South. I live in North Carolina. And, there’s a lot of, you know, conservatism in that, in that part of the country. What do you tell? Let’s say a parent who, you know, might think that books that are sexually explicit or address issues of sexuality that, you know, might think that those things are inappropriate, you know, because that, you know, that that does come up, say, hey, it’s not appropriate in order to have that for for kids in the library, whatever.

00;14;12;01 – 00;14;16;19
Speaker 11
What what would you say to to parents that that say that?

00;14;16;23 – 00;14;40;28
Speaker 7
Yeah. I mean, I think first and foremost would be read the book for yourself and you hear it out for yourself. I think second of all, you know, there is a Supreme Court standard for obscene material, which is that it’s obscene with no literary or artistic merit. Right. And so when you read a lot of these books that are getting challenged, a lot of times when they’re challenged, there are certain quotes that are being taken out of context, right?

00;14;40;29 – 00;15;01;02
Speaker 7
There’s like, here’s this really graphic sentence and you don’t see everything surrounding that, right? You know, like there’s one story that sold a lot about this book that was about sexual abuse of a young girl, right. And somebody from the outside might take a sentence and be like, oh, this is inappropriate as well. Sexual abuse. Kids shouldn’t be reading about this.

00;15;01;04 – 00;15;07;15
Speaker 5
This is the listen and be heard. Our brought to you by listen and be heard network.

00;15;07;18 – 00;15;33;03
Speaker 7
Story that this this girl read that book and she said, this is what’s happening to me. This is what my dad is doing to me. And it gave her the the voice. Right. And the ability to recognize that and bring it to people’s attention. And like, that wouldn’t have happened without that book. Right. And so I think a lot of times, you know, they’re there you the claim will be that there’s pornography in the schools and that’s just blatantly not true.

00;15;33;06 – 00;15;51;12
Speaker 7
If there is something graphic, there’s context around it. There’s there’s value behind what it’s portraying. If you actually take the time to read it. And, you know, I think at the end, at the end, end of the day, if you as a parent decide that this book is not appropriate for your child to read like you can do that.

00;15;51;12 – 00;16;00;19
Speaker 7
But I don’t think any parent should have the right to determine what’s accessible to everybody else. Right. Right. And I think that’s the line that gets crossed a lot of times.

00;16;00;21 – 00;16;27;26
Speaker 11
Again, this is listening to be heard radio for readers and writers. We were at the San Francisco. We’re actually the Filipino American International Book Festival. You know, Filipino American writers, Filipino writers from the diaspora, including Randy Rabbi, who’s speaking with us so graciously. Tell us just your take on the Filipino diaspora and the literary or the Filipino American literary landscape right now, which you’re very much a part of as a as a young adult author.

00;16;27;26 – 00;16;38;15
Speaker 11
And I think you are I have a book of I think it’s a graphic novel as well, you know, just tell us how it feels being here, you know, kind of in the, in this space right now.

00;16;38;18 – 00;17;01;15
Speaker 7
Yeah. No graphic novels yet, but maybe someday. Okay. But yeah, my name is just amazing to be in this space because, I grew up predominantly white communities, predominantly white schools. And so. And, and I didn’t come from a family of readers, so nobody was putting books about Filipinos or about Philippines in front of me, right? Like I know they existed.

00;17;01;20 – 00;17;17;14
Speaker 7
Yeah, but they weren’t in the mainstream, and I didn’t have any of my my family. That was kind of making that connection for me. Right? So it wasn’t until 19 when I read my first book or Filipino author poet, which one was there? It was Patrick Rosales. Scramble and die.

00;17;17;15 – 00;17;18;21
Speaker 11
Yeah, yeah.

00;17;18;23 – 00;17;37;00
Speaker 7
And. Yeah. And, you know, that’s like, opened up the world to me, like, oh, I could write about this part of myself. Up until that point, it was kind of like, oh, this part of myself doesn’t really matter, right? Like, that’s not valued in school. It’s not valued in public spaces. And so reading that, you know, you read about that, it gives you permission to be like, okay, I can I can tell my stories.

00;17;37;01 – 00;17;56;23
Speaker 7
Right. And so yeah. So it’s amazing to be here, to be kind of meeting these other creators, seeing so many of the creators. And I’d be like, in the last few years in the kid lit space, it’s really blown up. There’s so many more of us than there used to be. You know, Aaron and Trotter, Kelly and I debuted in the same year, 2015.

00;17;56;26 – 00;18;14;29
Speaker 7
Yeah. And at that time, there were only a couple other Filipino American writers, kind of in mainstream publishing, like Melissa de la Cruz, kind of before us. And so since we debut, there’s there’s a lot more now, you know, this sounds kind of cliche at this point. It made a lot of progress, but there’s still a lot more to me.

00;18;15;04 – 00;18;23;11
Speaker 7
Yeah. So when you still consider that the size of the Filipino population in the United States is, I don’t know what it is now. Last time I checked, the third largest immigrant community in the US.

00;18;23;12 – 00;18;25;26
Speaker 11
Yeah, a couple million. I think I forget what it.

00;18;25;26 – 00;18;40;08
Speaker 7
Was still not proportional to that, you know. Well, but it’s still. But it is a lot more than there used to be. And I’d be like, you know, when you. When I was younger, it was kind of like, oh, these books didn’t exist. They weren’t in the mainstream. Like, now they are. Right. Aaron and Kelly has won the Newbery Medal twice.

00;18;40;10 – 00;18;42;03
Speaker 7
Yeah, well that’s ridiculous.

00;18;42;08 – 00;19;06;08
Speaker 11
Well, you have a new book called Nest of Tongues, and there was also a y, a young adult book called, Patron Saints of Nothing. Again, you know, this is Randy by last name is spelled R, I be a y for our listeners of listening to Be heard radio for readers and writers, for those that want to get your books or you know or reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?

00;19;06;08 – 00;19;07;07
Speaker 11
Randy.

00;19;07;10 – 00;19;21;11
Speaker 7
As much as you can, I would recommend checking out your local independent bookstores. If not, check out your library. You can buy them wherever books are sold. Yeah. Pretty easy to find. I don’t think there’s anybody else in the world with my exact name.

00;19;21;13 – 00;19;23;17
Speaker 11
Do you have. Do you have a website? Website?

00;19;23;23 – 00;19;36;13
Speaker 7
Yes. It’s Randy. Rebuy.com. Okay. It’s updated somewhat mildly, but the best place to keep up with me is on Instagram, just at Randy rebuy. That’s where I usually post announcements and what’s going on, all that kind of stuff.

00;19;36;16 – 00;19;49;17
Speaker 11
Randy, thank you for sharing that with us. It’s been wonderful speaking with you again, this is Listen and Be Heard radio for readers and writers at the Filipino American International Book Festival in San Francisco.

00;19;49;19 – 00;20;03;04
Speaker 5
All of these interviews that Tony has done at the festival are longer than what we’re presenting here, and you will find the full interviews at Listen and Be heard.net.

00;20;03;07 – 00;20;05;14
Speaker 7
Well, guys, actually.

00;20;05;16 – 00;20;27;23
Speaker 11
It’s a memoir in a way. It’s called, well, A Filipino American Playwright’s Journey. It has a little biography about how I got to my journey. It was like a 30 year journey to become a playwright, and it was a collection of five weather plays. Because of being a latchkey kid of the 80s, all we had was TVs and rom coms, and unfortunately we weren’t represented on any of those mediums.

00;20;27;25 – 00;20;53;11
Speaker 11
So I wanted to try to write for our community and to share with our community. And that’s where I discovered Bindle Stuff Studio, which is a Filipino American theater company out here in San Francisco in the Selma Filipinas neighborhood. And they offered free classes, workshops on reading and writing, acting and directing. I signed up for their writing workshop in 1995, and I haven’t stopped writing since.

00;20;53;18 – 00;21;15;20
Speaker 11
So, you know, I saw one of the panels that you were on yesterday of fellow playwrights from the diaspora, and you had said that, you know, there is this marked difference between prose and playwriting. Can you talk a, you know, share with our audience? You know, a little bit more about that? Absolutely. When I see think of prose, I think of something internal.

00;21;15;22 – 00;21;42;21
Speaker 11
So somebody can read your words and be internally inspired by them. Playwriting, on the other hand, is something to be watched, to be experienced, to be taken in as an audience member. So what I try to do is to create that one on one relationship between my words, the actors, the director, to interpret what my words are going to be for the audience and then the audience to laugh or to cry together in community.

00;21;42;22 – 00;22;07;06
Speaker 11
And I think that’s one of the biggest differences, because a person with a book can just be by themselves. Person with a play can experience their history there, their, their language and their culture together. And that’s what I really love about being a playwright. You mentioned the external. So I guess to my way of thinking, part of maybe being a playwright is to take the internal and make it external.

00;22;07;06 – 00;22;26;14
Speaker 11
Is that is that a possibility? And do you find that that’s part of your process? Oh yeah. Definitely. Definitely. And trying to take the external and turning it into the personal, it becomes external again because then they can share it with other people in again in community, because that’s the only time you get to be in a space together to experience the same thing.

00;22;26;18 – 00;22;45;24
Speaker 11
And not only that, to kind of draw on their own experiences. And one of the best things I like about theater is that after the work is done, they can they can share, they can talk story about what they just saw and see and compare notes. So I think that’s one of the greatest things about doing theater in a specific place.

00;22;45;26 – 00;23;08;01
Speaker 11
When I think of playwrights, I, you know, I think of these, kind of bigger than life, kind of, you guys with these kind of personalities that are kind of, you know, kind of out there. Where do you draw your, your inspiration? Because it just seems to me to be very daunting to take on this, this visual medium and to find you.

00;23;08;02 – 00;23;31;08
Speaker 11
Where do you mind that like that material? Again, I, I grew up in the 80s and 90s, so a lot of the, the media that was portrayed, really resonated for me. And I know my voice. My voice is about humor, heart and family. As long as I can take all those three things and I know what I connect with and I, I have to write in my voice.

00;23;31;08 – 00;23;57;15
Speaker 11
And luckily, people have watched my plays and connected with them because through the humor that the actors portray to the heart that, you know, person with a family going through labor crises, they connect with and they can take back to their community. So it’s just it’s amazing way. Again, we’re talking to Conrad Panganiban. Panganiban at the Filipino American Book Festival.

00;23;57;15 – 00;24;38;06
Speaker 11
International Book Festival now, well, is one of the title of one of your plays. And it’s also the title of the collection of, you know, of plays that were published by Filipino-American writers and artists, also known as power. Tell us about. Well, yeah. Well, actually, I’m glad you asked about that because, well, and there is a strike meaning in Filipino, but also in the Spanish during, I mean, the Latino community during the 1965, the grape stripe, which was started by Larry and then joined with the US and Cesar Chavez.

00;24;38;09 – 00;25;10;00
Speaker 11
So not only was it about a strike, but it’s also the message of taking a collection of my work in my place to create a sort of activism in learning about our history, to learn more, to go research about, you know, your history. So that’s why I wanted to create, well, the collection of plays. As with the title of the play that was premiered at Stefan two, 2017 and has gone on to be performed at a high school in Sacramento with non Filipino students with Filipino leads.

00;25;10;05 – 00;25;29;22
Speaker 11
Because this is the first time that these young artists, as Filipino Americans, got to actually play Filipino Americans on stage again, going back to being represented in our media and being a vehicle for them to represent them.

00;25;29;24 – 00;25;34;16
Speaker 12
Who am I here with today for? All right. What do you do, babe?

00;25;34;17 – 00;25;35;00
Speaker 8
So I.

00;25;35;02 – 00;25;38;21
Speaker 13
Am a senior College of Medicine counselor. Absolutely.

00;25;38;23 – 00;25;48;07
Speaker 12
Nice. So no one asked if they were made for you to listen and be heard. And how places like this call it ties into. Yeah.

00;25;48;10 – 00;26;08;20
Speaker 13
So with listening, it’s a great way to hear people and their stories and then say, with being a heard, it’s nice to be able to share your experiences as well. So with the world, there’s a lot of craziness going on, but with communication, it’s good to know where people are coming from in their background because everybody has something like that.

00;26;08;20 – 00;26;28;07
Speaker 13
They can share and say, we can constantly learn and grow with each other. And then with these events, the great opportunity to kind of share some of the different opportunities available to students. So I would miss any more. I’m an alumni. So it’s cool to be able to share my story and get to know what are interested. And kind.

00;26;28;07 – 00;26;35;25
Speaker 5
Of thank you to Maya. This is the listen and be heard about.

00;26;35;28 – 00;26;52;01
Speaker 14
Us. I’m still working on listening, but definitely I, I kind of talk a little quiet. So even when I’m wanting to be heard, you know, somebody will be like, And I’ll be trying to get my message for us, but it’s not like, so it can.

00;26;52;03 – 00;26;59;06
Speaker 4
Be heard. Even if your voice shakes without knowing it. You may be saving.

00;26;59;10 – 00;27;00;10
Speaker 12
In this context.

00;27;00;11 – 00;27;01;06
Speaker 8
Specifically.

00;27;01;06 – 00;27;04;29
Speaker 12
It’s that. The disconnect from.

00;27;04;29 – 00;27;05;24
Speaker 8
The historical.

00;27;05;24 – 00;27;07;17
Speaker 12
Piece of.

00;27;07;22 – 00;27;08;07
Speaker 9
The whole.

00;27;08;07 – 00;27;29;25
Speaker 12
Picture, right? Like the disconnect of, for me as a tap dancer coming in and having to kind of prove myself. Whereas the art form started with tap dancers involved as the process. So trying to patiently be an educator and continue to listen to where I can learn as well.

00;27;29;26 – 00;28;11;12
Speaker 5
This is the listen and be heard. Our please stick around, listen to the sounds of the audio garden and we’ll need you on the other side of the bridge in the minute or two.

00;28;11;14 – 00;28;13;18
Speaker 1
And all the big work camps, sawmills.

00;28;13;19 – 00;28;32;17
Speaker 15
And term time steel and road camp and whatnot have a man to go around and wake up the camp, and he has very chance and hollers to wake him up. And sometimes he makes them up as he goes along. Well, I heard these at Lockman, a big sawmill down in Polk County.

00;28;32;19 – 00;28;42;14
Speaker 16
Wake up and get on the road. Didn’t cry. Davis. 5:00.

00;28;42;17 – 00;28;48;05
Speaker 15
Come on, man, that is. Come on up, man. You want some trouble with the walker? Come on.

00;28;48;07 – 00;28;52;04
Speaker 16
Wake up.

00;28;52;07 – 00;29;02;20
Speaker 16
There is a break and catch a break. And then your shirt to shaking.

00;29;02;22 – 00;29;09;12
Speaker 16
Bullet hole for sure. Listen to me on the other side. And I know you are a.

00;29;09;15 – 00;29;39;01
Speaker 11
Part of the Pacifica Radio Network. We focus on writers of all genres poetry, children’s memoir, fiction, creative nonfiction. And now we’re taking on a lot of other elements addressing concerns of indigenous communities, music, and just just runs the gamut of, of of everything that nourishes the soul. In fact, I’ve been involved as one of the hosts. The co-hosts have some interviews coming up fairly soon in the next couple of weeks.

00;29;39;01 – 00;30;06;22
Speaker 11
So it’s something that I really enjoyed. It’s got a whole lot of pleasure, and it’s something that very passionate about and grab and to.

00;30;06;25 – 00;30;22;23
Speaker 17
I’m Daryl from Listen and Be heard network and we have a thing where we we say listen and be heard. And then we finish the phrase what does it mean to you on a day like today, to the year we’re celebrating coaches birthday, new young people with a lot of great masters, and you’re the new masters coming up.

00;30;22;25 – 00;30;40;15
Speaker 17
Gabriel is here. There’s Billy Sacks and all the great cats up here. And these young men came and they are going to perform right and are eating cold. But in the name of just saying this is going to be heard because listening be heard because it’s important to spread music and keep the I.

00;30;40;15 – 00;30;44;14
Speaker 14
Was listening in on be heard because you would never know who’s watching.

00;30;44;16 – 00;30;53;20
Speaker 18
Listening, be heard because it’s important to be to be confident, but to also bring out people who are less confident.

00;30;53;22 – 00;30;54;02
Speaker 17
Yeah.

00;30;54;03 – 00;30;56;23
Speaker 11
Hey. What’s up? This is.

00;30;56;25 – 00;30;58;28
Speaker 17
Listening network.

00;30;59;00 – 00;31;35;23
Speaker 11
As always, we always play some cool surprises here that you won’t hear anywhere else. It’s a small clip from the hundredth anniversary of the jazz legend John Coltrane birth. Recorded September 23rd. Marcus Garvey Park as part of the Miles Davis and John Coltrane Jazz Celebration. And it featured a new work that was recorded by the great Craig Harris.

00;31;35;25 – 00;33;09;25
Speaker 11
It features myself and Jordan Davis, Russell Carter and Alexis Marcelo, in the band. And it was an honor to play that night. So I just wanted to give you a little excerpt of that. What that was like, John Coltrane’s 100th birthday.

00;33;09;27 – 00;33;33;10
Speaker 19
Our sense of justice is is really deeply whether we want to believe it or not, in an inheritance and an inheritance of hope. You know, that’s a spiritual inheritance, I think, that humans have, and we don’t always want to claim it. I want to compact it into something. I love this that you’re saying right now, though, it’s that technology has taken us.

00;33;33;10 – 00;34;09;16
Speaker 19
And I really do spend time with the media arm of this discourse, the young ones that are really asking the question and and reopening up that opportunity to do just speak out, you know, beyond the, the doors of the courts. To bring it into a common language so that people of great influence can influence what genocide is or characterizations old and new policy, new law, expansive data and forensics and and I mean, in terms of data on data is justice.

00;34;09;16 – 00;34;32;23
Speaker 19
That whole wonderful line is coming through in the truest way for folks who’ve done this work for as long, who are continuing to teach, and for the new students, data and forensics. You know, we’re on nursing, we’re unearthing bones. And you’re right, these people cannot be their countries and states and state sanctioned atrocity that could never be held accountable.

00;34;32;25 – 00;34;56;27
Speaker 19
But just that process and acknowledgment from World Court. How about that? The forensics are coming there horrific and there and and we will uncover and we characterize the measles blankets that were handed out to my people on this continent as a form of genocide. We will get to real numbers one day and we will know that it was genocide.

00;34;56;29 – 00;36;05;09
Speaker 19
So, you know, we’re advancing and all guys part of part of that with the students up under you. I just that’s why I asked the foundational questions today, because I believe we are a tremendous crisis.

00;36;05;11 – 00;36;20;04
Speaker 20
We do not believe from heart for you. We do not believe from facts. Whatever you wish to say for.

00;36;20;07 – 00;40;37;15
Speaker 20
In your.

00;40;37;17 – 00;40;43;00
Speaker 16
The zombie. I noticed you kind of left him, her or him out of this book.

00;40;43;02 – 00;41;07;07
Speaker 15
That was in your other book. Well, I thought I said enough about the zombie that had been talked about, and the book had come out in England and caused a sensation over that, too. And I’d been on We the People and talked about zombies, and I’d been out in Hollywood and and author hired me after reading my book, Tell My Horse and I talked about zombies so much about there and Seth Walsh and.

00;41;07;11 – 00;41;09;28
Speaker 15
Well, I never heard you talk about him that you’ve been said.

00;41;09;29 – 00;41;10;20
Speaker 21
No, I haven’t.

00;41;10;22 – 00;41;42;23
Speaker 15
Talk about the zombie just a wee little bit. Well, as I’m is supposed to be the living dead, people who die and are resurrected and but without their souls, and they can take orders, and they are supposed to be never to be tired and to do what the master says without a cease and without being tired. I I naturally it would be futile for me to attempt to try to explain everything.

00;41;42;25 – 00;41;44;25
Speaker 15
I do know that people have been resurrected.

00;41;44;25 – 00;41;45;24
Speaker 22
In Haiti. Are you?

00;41;45;25 – 00;41;51;29
Speaker 15
I do not believe that they were actually dead. I believe it was suspended assignments. And since.

00;41;52;01 – 00;42;46;12
Speaker 22
There is not the plane flying high, the car door closed, the window open to the spring night, knowing who are you, knowing what you’re listening to? Several sirens, several planes and hoping it’s okay while you, whoever you are, know that you are writing about what you are listening to and noticing that your ears are ringing and the tension you feel is always with you.

00;42;46;15 – 00;43;21;07
Speaker 22
As another plane passes and someone is doing something, and the outside spring world is coming through the window and touching my eardrums, and it’s me listening. Me hearing me who heard what I felt, what I knew I know. Knowing me is me, not what I hear. Touching.

00;43;21;11 – 00;43;53;10
Speaker 23
October 14th, 1964 Olympic Stadium, Tokyo, Japan 38 world class runners gather on this rain soaked track. All eyes are on the favorites. World record holders, a previous gold medalist. The best of the best. Most people don’t notice me. They don’t know that I am Oglala Lakota Native American. They don’t know that I have wings. But in 25 laps.

00;43;53;16 – 00;44;36;20
Speaker 23
10,000m. 6.2 miles. They will. I say that because when I shared with you that our young men, their voice needs to be heard and they needs to be heard, along with a dream and that commitment to pursue their dream. And collectively, the students in the classroom across America, that seventh generation, before and after the seventh generation, collectively third world, choreograph the horizon of America’s future as a one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

00;44;36;23 – 00;45;00;28
Speaker 23
So I thank you because you were able to grasp that I could feel my Lakota culture.

00;45;01;00 – 00;48;20;10
Speaker 5
This is the listen and be heard our brought to you by Listen and be heard network a project of sound system culture we’ve been bringing in to you in Audio garden mix of live music.

00;48;20;14 – 00;49;21;09
Speaker 5
This from an IBM session with Preston Fulwood, our own Jay Rodriguez on the tenor saxophone. Kenji Service on drums, and myself kicking a little poetry here and there. We’ve also been hearing the voice of Judy to Logan and a very old recording as some Native American chanting, singing, as well as Neale Hurston, the great one and only Zora Neale Hurston, whose spirit just innovates a great deal of what we all do and to believe with her amazing field studies and, of course, Billy Mills, who was interviewed by Tony Robles.

00;49;21;12 – 00;49;30;01
Speaker 5
And here is Tony with a poem for Nina Simone.

00;49;30;03 – 00;49;31;11
Speaker 23
Called The Woman.

00;49;31;11 – 00;50;07;04
Speaker 17
Who Looked Like Me. You caught my eye. Even with your mask, a pandemic badge of the mouth. Yet your eyes spoke as you moved about the store. Black woman under the glare of fluorescent lights, waiting in your own music, your own rhythm while the canned music played over the thrift store speakers and Nina’s voice comes through, suddenly singing, birds flying high.

00;50;07;07 – 00;50;35;12
Speaker 17
You know how I feel. Breeze drifting on by. You know how I feel. It’s a brand new day. And the thrift store is not far from a place called Tryon, where we’re at right now. Birthplace of the great Nina Simone. And the store is where people try on this and try on that. But Nina never fit in, try on or maybe try on.

00;50;35;15 – 00;53;04;16
Speaker 17
Never fit her. The woman walks past the fitting room into another light befitting a queen, moving as such, waiting deep in the night, stars past the cutting glare of fluorescent lights. And that’s upon hearing. Try on.

00;53;04;19 – 00;53;20;05
Speaker 5
What an honor to participate in this live session at IBM with Jay Rodriguez on the tenor, my co-producer here on the listen and be heard our.

00;53;20;07 – 00;54;00;18
Speaker 5
Kenji see on the drums and Preston forward on piano. What a joy and what a joy to walk through the audio garden in this past hour with you. Thank you to Tony Robles for his interviews at the Filipino American International Book Festival. It took place in San Francisco. I want to thank all of his guests and to let you know that you will find the complete, unedited interviews at listen and be heard.

00;54;00;19 – 00;54;53;27
Speaker 5
Dot net and we missed Christina Legarda, but we will have that interview with her next week here in the Audio Garden and in the second half, thanks to Craig Harris and his band that played at the celebration of John Coltrane at Marcus Garvey Park in Harlem, where we are based, the Listen and Be Heard Network and Listen and Be Heard is a project of sound system culture and we are happy, proud, excited every week to bring this walk through the Audio Garden to you here on the listen and be heard.

00;54;53;27 – 00;55;19;25
Speaker 5
Our. My name is Martha Senator, and I am going to leave you with a few thoughts from author Laura Link from a live show we did at w m in Asheville, North Carolina. I’m looking forward to a visit there in January. See, the way we need to size.

00;55;19;25 – 00;55;32;29
Speaker 24
Our food is to look at the capacity, the ecological capacity of a place to produce the foods that we need and to be able to produce those foods without an ecological deficit.

00;55;33;04 – 00;55;34;16
Speaker 1
So the idea is.

00;55;34;16 – 00;55;46;03
Speaker 5
That by doing it regionally and not pulling foods from all over the world, that we’re reducing the the footprint of producing that food and getting it to our table.

00;55;46;05 – 00;55;58;09
Speaker 24
And we’re also enhancing our increasing the self-reliance of that region we’re not so dependent on as far away places. That’s the resilience piece. Yeah.

00;55;58;11 – 00;56;32;20
Speaker 5
Thanks as always to Davion Dial at WP Radio in Asheville, North Carolina, for introducing listen to be heard to the broadcast airwaves. Casey in Taos, New Mexico k e in San Antonio, Texas, KOI in Ames, Iowa, and I in Red bluff, California and other stations that are part of the Pacifica affiliate network for cultivating the audio garden in your communities and our own listening.

00;56;32;20 – 00;57;00;15
Speaker 5
Be her network host of w.org. Please visit us at listen and Be heard. Net and sign up for our email newsletter and at our Listen and Be Heard YouTube channel, where you will find unedited video interviews of our featured guests. My name is Martha Senator, and I want to thank you for listening and giving me the opportunity to be heard.

Preston Fulwood is an artist, musician, reiki healer, producer, composer and instructor. Preston is a master instrumentalist and vocalist and is a well known studio musician and jazz pianist.

Hernán Ramiro Rodriguez Sierra – Musician, Composer, Producer

Judy Talaugon is a Chumash and Filipina Land Protector from the Santa Ynez Band of Chumash Indians. She is the daughter of farmworkers and immigrant leaders. Growing up among Mexican and Filipina communities in California, she has been a long-time activist in numerous struggles, ranging from human rights to housing, land rights, and the fight…

Craig Harris, trombonist, composer, bandleader, and sonic shaman. … his musical journey began with the Sun Ra, … place among creative music’s … leaders.

I remember the very day that I became colored. Up to my thirteenth year I lived in the little Negro town of Eatonville, Florida. It is exclusively a colored town. The only white people I knew passed through the town going to or coming from Orlando.

Martha Cinader is a poet and author living in Harlem, NY. Her young adult novel, Marq and the Queen Fish, is forthcoming in 2026 from Atmosphere Press. Cinader is the founder and Director of the Listen & Be Heard Network, where she hosts and produces The Listen & Be Heard Hour, and Beyond Borders, both non-commercial podcasts and syndicated radio shows…

At the 1964 Olympics, Billy Mills shocked the world and came from behind to win the gold medal in the 10,000 meters race. At the time, he set a world record of 28 minutes, 24.4 seconds and is still the only American to ever win a gold medal in the 10K event.

Tony Robles, “The People’s Poet” was born in San Francisco and is the nephew of Filipino-American poet, historian and social justice activist Al Robles. He was a shortlist nominee for poet laureate of San Francisco in 2017 and the recipient of the San Francisco Art Commission individual literary artist grant in 2018. His two books…

Jay Reguero plans to spend the last semester of his senior year playing video games before heading to the University of Michigan in the fall. But when he discovers that his Filipino cousin Jun was murdered as part of President Duterte’s war on drugs, and no one in the family wants to talk about what…

A young boy named Lakas discovers that a fish from his dreams might be real—leading him on a lively, magical chase through San Francisco’s Manilatown.

In Caliban and the Witch, Silvia Federici argues that capitalism did not simply emerge as an economic system—it required the deliberate remaking of the human being. Central to this transformation was the invention of the “body as machine”: a disciplined, regulated, and productive entity shaped to meet the demands of wage labor.

“This collection is based on my experiences and observations as someone who witnessed Hurricane Helene and its impact on the community—particularly my mobile home community in Hendersonville,”

Tribunal Rising commemorates the 1992 International Tribunal movement in the city of San Francisco to dismantle the legacy of Christopher Columbus and the Myth of Discovery. In 1990, “[a]t the culmination of the Special International Tribunal on the Human Rights Violations of Political Prisoners and Prisoners of War in the US, the American Indian Movement…

This autobiographical retelling of Billy Mills’ journeys from being an orphan on Oglala Lakota Pine Ridge Reservation to his Gold Medal Win in the 10,000-meter race of the 1964 Toyoko Olympics. Inspired by this father’s words “the pursuit of a dream will heal you”, Billy was able to overcome poverty, racism, and severe health challenges to reach his goal and heal his heart.  

Living It! is Martha Cinader’s debut as the producer of her own album, and features an eclectic array of arrangements and musical styles. It was recorded in part in a studio in New York City, part in a studio in Hamburg, and part live at the Mojo Club in Hamburg, throw in some bonus tracks…

In this remarkable collection, Tony Robles transforms a bright-lit warehouse into a psychic landscape to illuminate one man’s efforts to reassemble a broken life. Where the Warehouse Things Are gives the satisfaction of a book of poetry as well as a novelistic sense of a place and its inhabitants fully rendered. — Ron Rash, author…

In Thrift Store Metamorphosis, Tony Robles astutely demonstrates the palpable currency of human interactions. His keen observations show us the necessity of reflection. In this mirror, we learn that everything and anything that we pay attention to has the capability to hold deep meaningful lessons for us and our lives. Robles makes us feel a range of…

This book is a vessel/holding liquid for thirsty desirers/in the empty spiral of the universe/where detail is opinion/one moment is all it takes to answer/when the body calls. This book is just one answer in a life of calling. The storyteller lives inside the breath of home. Whatever home is chosen, whatever breath is owned.…

A collection of biographical stories and poems about fascinating people in history whose real dreams made a real difference. Developed in performance, these stories bring old tales to life for contemporary readers in a way that is both entertaining and informative.

CREDITS– CO-HOSTS & PRODUCERS: Martha Cinader, Hernán Ramiro Rodriguez Sierra, Tony Robles, Jemyah Jones. FEATURED INTERVIEWS: CC Dador, Mia P. Manansala, Randy Ribay, Conrad Panganiban. POETRY: Martha Cinader, Tony Robles. MUSIC: Craig Harris Quartet, Jay Rodriguez Sierra, Preston Fulwood, Genji Siraisi, Ehab Omar, Martha Cinader. SOUNDTRACK, MIXING, MASTERING, SOUND DESIGN: Hernán Ramiro Rodriguez Sierra. Executive Producer, Martha Cinader.

Do you want to be heard in the garden? Please consider contributing your audio content. We grow together when we nurture our network. Click here for more information.

The Intuitive Writing Podcast hosted by Elizabeth Perlman

This is an unedited transcript of s1e7 of the Intuitive Writing Podcast. ©2026 The Listen & Be Heard Network. all rights reserved.

00:00:00 – 00:00:28
Hello and welcome to the Intuitive Writing Podcast, a production of the Intuitive Writing Project, a writing-based empowerment program for girls and gender expansive youth. We are dedicated to giving young writers a safe, encouraging, non-critical, unconditionally supportive space to write their story, speak their truth, and assert their voice, both as writers and as leaders.

00:00:29 – 00:01:21
For a bit of background, my name is Elizabeth and I created this program 11 years ago because it’s what I wanted and needed when I was young, a supportive place to be truly seen and heard. That’s why we use the Amherst writing method, a radically nurturing and empowering writing methodology I wish everyone learned in grade school. You can read more about the Amherst method on their website and in Pat Schneider’s groundbreaking book, Writing Alone and with Others. But the basic principles and the ones that guide all of our classes are number one, everyone is a writer with important stories to tell. Number two, everyone has their own unique voice, a voice that needs to be heard. And number three, our voice will grow stronger and clearer.

00:01:21 – 00:02:08
the more it is supported and positively affirmed. In our classes, everyone writes together, everyone shares their writing, and then everyone takes turns giving each other grounded, positive feedback. By that, I mean we repeat back and lift up the words, lines, phrases, or concepts that really resonated for us. Since we can’t violate the sanctity of our classes by reporting what goes on there, These one-on-one or three-people conversations are designed to provide a little glimpse, a microcosm of what happens in the classroom. You can also read about our org and read our students’ words as they were published on our blog, The Intuitive Voice, with the links below.

00:02:08 – 00:02:36
If you enjoy listening to one young reader read their words and talk about it, imagine how powerful it is when six young writers are reading their words and giving each other positive, affirming feedback. It’s pretty life-changing, and there’s a lot more I could say about it, but I’ll let these young writers speak for themselves. On behalf of all the writers at the Intuitive Writing Project, I want to thank you for supporting their voices.

00:02:36 – 00:03:06
for being present and really listening to the wisdom, insight, and brilliance of young people. Today, I am so honored and excited to be interviewing our very own Kayli Harley, who has been writing with us for several years and is an exceptional writer. I wanted to start by introducing Kayli. Kayli, if you would share your pronouns, your age, about how long you’ve been writing with us.

00:03:06 – 00:03:34
where you’re currently at school. And then the big question at the end is if you could share a little anecdote about your kind of your first memory of loving to write. Okay. Hi, everyone. My pronouns are she, her. I’m almost 19 years old in a few days. I’m currently a student at Northeastern University in Boston.

00:03:34 – 00:04:03
And I’ve been writing with the Intuitive Writing Project for almost four years now. And thinking about an anecdote of the first time I remember enjoying writing was probably in seventh grade. We had an assignment to write like a short fictional piece of something. And I wrote it about a character that was experienced.

00:04:03 – 00:04:32
that had the same anxiety disorder that I had. So it was kind of like a cathartic, therapeutic drama dump on the page. And reading it back now, I think I still have it. It’s like terrible. It’s really not good. But I remember the first time that I found something in writing that I didn’t find anywhere else.

00:04:32 – 00:04:58
thinking like, oh yeah, like this is something that I definitely want to pursue more. That’s so interesting. That’s so young, looking back on it now, to have had this like truly self-revelatory non-fiction writing piece. That’s amazing. I bet most kids were writing about like castles and like just silly stuff and you went deep.

00:04:58 – 00:05:57
which this is consistent with you as a writer. You are a deep thinker. I love that that happened in seventh grade. Did you get any kind of positive feedback from your teacher from that? Um, I honestly forget. I do remember that we had to, like, pass it around to, like, small groups in class. It was like, wait a minute. It’s not part of the program. And I think I did, like, I think I did pass it around and the other kids must have just been like, what the heck is this? Like, girl. Oh, I’m laughing, but I’m actually like inwardly cringing for you because I’ve had so many. So if you think you’re writing something, just you get to, like in our class, speak your truth. But it’s actually in that situation that was not a safe space. Yeah. And then I think I rewrote that story, like from a different place, like same theme.

00:05:57 – 00:06:24
the next year in eighth grade. And then again, we had to like, it would be like passed around to like, and I asked my teacher, I’m like, can I not do this? And she was like, okay. So I just didn’t pass my story around. Good for you standing up, being an advocate for your story and not yet. Cause it’s, that’s a very personal story that is not for mass consumption. That’s great.

00:06:24 – 00:07:17
What’s funny is that Allie Kirk, who is also in the Intuitive Writing Project, who actually got me into the Intuitive Writing Project, she was in that class and she was the only, she was like my only friend in that class and she was the only person that I let like read that. It’s a full circle. It’s totally a full circle. You were having an Intuitive Writing Project moment before you even knew it. Actually, technically, we existed at that point, but we just didn’t know each other. That’s lovely. Well, thank you for sharing that. We’re going to come back to that theme of writing really personal stuff and sharing it and how scary and vulnerable it is. Because to your point, it would feel as a seventh grader and at any age, it feels so good, so cathartic to actually speak your truth and put it on paper, organize your thoughts on paper.

00:07:17 – 00:08:13
In fact, there’s all this science to say that when we write about traumatic things on paper, it actually shifts where the trauma is located in the brain. So before you write about it, the trauma is in the back part of your brain where it’s just like this overwhelming emotion. And then the process of writing about it, it actually, they’ve tracked that it moves to the frontal lobe where it sort of reduces the intensity a little bit because you kind of like, it’s that expression, you literally wrapped your head around it. And so then you can handle it. It’s very powerful what you experienced, but it also makes it very scary and vulnerable to share your writing. So we’ll come back to that. I’m glad that that didn’t dissuade you from writing authentic truths.

00:08:13 – 00:09:13
I just want to share with the audience that there’s a lot of Kayli’s powerful, deep, wise, insightful, amazing writing on our blog, Intuitive Voice. You can find it all there. In fact, it was really hard to pick a piece to talk about today to just pick one piece, but it is such a beautiful, incredible piece. It is, I think everyone of every age are going to relate to the theme of this because it’s about really being the creators of our own reality and choosing how to feel. So I’ll say no more about it. I’ll let you read if you would read Kayli your piece, Keeper of Joy. Yeah. Okay. It’s not being in charge of my life that scares me. What scares me is that being the keeper of my fate means I’m the keeper of my joy too. Pain is easy to hold. It’s not easy to carry, but it fits in my hands just so like a clay cast.

00:09:13 – 00:09:42
And when something is easy to hold, we tend to take it with us, reluctant to detach from it. I’ve held it for so long. I’m used to seeing my hands this way. I’m used to the weight. But joy, joy is untamable and light and so warm that it’s startling. You cannot hold joy. It isn’t something with a form. But it is nice to carry. It’s not heavy or uncomfortable. But how do you carry something you can’t hold? How do you control the uncontrollable?

00:09:43 – 00:10:11
You feel joy. I argue that we feel it more than pain and we just don’t know because joy isn’t selfish. Joy doesn’t appear with a label on a uniform. It just overcomes you and smiles as you smile. It presses a palm to your chest ever so gently and suddenly you feel more connected to the idea of living than you thought was possible. But you aren’t thinking of joy when it comes because joy reminds you how to feel before you think. Joy doesn’t need you to know its name.

00:10:11 – 00:10:42
It just needs you to know its presence. But pain is selfish, and you know when it’s there. You know its name. It doesn’t take much to find the pain and keep it, but it’s something else entirely to capture the joy and convince it to stay. So when you tell me my fate is only mine, I’m not thinking of fate. Because even though joy isn’t selfish, it won’t stay unless you want it to. Even though joy isn’t selfish, it knows that you need to pull your weight. Joy won’t last unless you create it.

00:10:42 – 00:11:08
Unless you will it. I guess joy is only as untamable as you. And of course, you can’t hold it when your hands are caked in clay. Even if you caught it, would you choose to let it stay? Kayli, that is so beautiful. I mean, anything you write, anything anyone writes can be read, but there’s such a special magic when you hear the author’s voice reading it.

00:11:08 – 00:12:35
You have such a beautiful voice and you read that so beautifully. It made me cry a little bit. It’s so good. This is such a deep piece, as all your pieces are, but I want to talk about how the writer is really, it’s an existential piece. The writer is talking about how we can choose our emotions and how you do have to exert a little bit of effort and sometimes It’s an interesting idea, and it’s so true. Sometimes the most positive emotions, the emotions we all want to feel are a little harder to hold than the things that we actually don’t want to feel, which are weirdly easy sometimes. We get, and I feel like this is part of our larger culture and human Western history has just been entrenched in suffering for so long. So I think this is connected to like, this is a very universal human problem that you have observed so precisely and beautifully and eloquently. Okay, so some lines that just jumped out to me. The idea that what scares me is being the keeper of my fate means I am also the keeper of my joy. That idea that we have ultimate creative power over our lives, which sounds like objectively we should all, oh my God, we have

00:12:35 – 00:14:00
Ultimate creative power. But also that’s like, oh, that means it’s on me. And the way that the writer wrote, pain is easy to hold, so relatable. It’s not easy to carry, but it fits in my hand just so, like a clay cast. That is an incredible line. Also because of that whole mythological idea that God created man out of clay. So it’s like almost like the human, it’s almost like humans are cursed on some level from a religious perspective to carry pain. And of course that circles back at the end. I love that you brought the clay back where the second to last line the writer said, and of course you can’t hold it when your hands are caked with clay. That is a really deep metaphor going on there. But then, how the writer said, when something is easy to hold, we tend to take it with us, reluctant to detach from it. I’ve held it for so long. I’m used to seeing my hands this way. I’m used to the weight. That is so deep. I remember when you first read this in class, I was just like speechless because it’s something we, nobody talks about this, that actually sadness,

00:14:00 – 00:15:15
suffering, struggle, pain, all the things that have been part of the human experience for thousands of years are weirdly more comfortable. And it feels like, well, if you’re sad, you can’t, you have nothing to lose because you’re already at the bottom. Whereas if you have joy, then you can lose it. Then you have something to lose. I’m not actually sure why it is this way, but it is this way. And you have expressed it perfectly and then we switch the writer pivots to talking about joy oh my god I love this description joy is untamable and light and so warm that it’s startling god I love the line about it just overcomes you and smiles as you smile it presses a palm to your chest ever so gently, and suddenly you feel more connected to the idea of living than you thought was possible. There’s interesting, this is the mention of palm again and hands, of course because the writer’s talking about folding it, and it’s an interesting idea just that we

00:15:15 – 00:15:44
Okay, so that we hold things in our hands is sort of a metaphor for our creative power, but then holding it in our hands also conveys this idea of weight or lightness, which you have played with beautifully. I’m thinking about synesthesia, where you compare senses. Sadness or joy is expressed in almost with a texture or a weight to it, something tangible.

00:15:44 – 00:16:14
which we don’t usually, and this is the gift of the writer, that the writer takes emotions and makes them tangible. I love the line, you feel joy. It doesn’t appear with a label on a uniform. It just overcomes you. It’s just this almost like it washes over you. Whereas pain, and then we go back to comparing joy and pain is such a fascinating idea. Pain, you know when it’s there.

00:16:14 – 00:16:40
you know it’s name, you know it’s pain you’re carrying, but there’s a selfishness to it because you do have to choose it. And it’s funny, it’s almost like pain sort of disconnects you from the universe or from life and joy connects you. Like that line, joy makes you feel more connected to living and pain sort of makes you feel separate from it.

00:16:40 – 00:17:11
And then just the very last paragraph. So powerful. I can’t even. So I would just love for you to just read the last paragraph one more time. OK. Because even though Joy isn’t selfish, it won’t stay unless you want it to. Even though Joy isn’t selfish, it knows that you need to pull your weight. Joy won’t last unless you create it, unless you will it. I guess Joy is only as untamable as you. And of course, you can’t hold it when your hands are caked in clay.

00:17:11 – 00:18:24
Even if you caught it, would you choose to let it stay? So incredible. That line, joy won’t last unless you create it, unless you will it. And will is such an interesting idea. Like the idea that we do have to exert our personal will if we want to have the life that we dream of. And I also love joy is only as tameable as you, which gets to like, the beauty of the human spirit when it’s let to be what it is. It’s this beautiful, wild creature. And of course, that’s where the joy lies, is in our untamability. Oh, it’s so awesome! So now I want to ask you about the creative process of writing. So let’s just talk about this piece in particular. When you started it, did you have any clue that this is where you were going? Did it just sort of happen unexpectedly or were you very clear this is like you knew this is what you wanted to write about? Hmm, I feel like for a lot of my pieces it’s either the first line that like pops into my head that gets me going.

00:18:24 – 00:19:17
Or it’s just like a general idea and I just kind of start and then see where it goes. I don’t think I ever really have like an end goal unless it’s the last line. Like I feel like my brain very much works and like the one in like the lines where I feel like capture what like I’m trying to say but still need more to like kind of fill it in and like provide context. So like sometimes I’ll be writing and then my brain will be like this line and I’ll have to like write it somewhere else because it’s like I don’t want it there yet, but like I want it. So it’s like my brain will definitely be like writing in a few different places at once all the time. Yeah, I feel like for this one, I can’t remember if it was the first line. I think it might have been the first thing that was like the idea that I wanted and then the rest just kind of came from that.

00:19:17 – 00:19:47
But yeah. That’s incredible. I mean, what I’m hearing when you’re describing that is that you hear words that sentences sort of like pop into your head. Like, I mean, this is what poets, I hear poets talk about this all the time, that they just hear a line and they have to, they got to write that line down. And what you’re saying, it may be like a couple, you’re not even ready for that line yet, but you already know that line. You’re going in that direction toward that line.

00:19:47 – 00:20:13
Yeah. That’s so awesome. By the way, I have to ask if you did you ever get to watch Dickinson about Emily Dickinson, the new? No, I haven’t. I keep meaning to. And then, OK, now you definitely have to watch it because the fact that what you just told me is sort of how they and I recommend this to everyone. It is definitely PG-13, but best best selling of young female writers.

00:20:13 – 00:20:43
experience as a writer. It’s a modern version of her. And what they have on the with the graphics on the show is she’ll be walking along and a line will just pop in her head and they show it. It’s like ink on paper that looks like the words are like fire. It’s very cool. But you just get to see what what most people don’t get to see. Kayli, when you’re having a brilliant epiphany about a line, it’s invisible.

00:20:43 – 00:21:11
Nobody knows it’s happening. You know it’s happening, and then if you get down, then the world will eventually know. But it’s like this magic that happens that most people don’t understand it. I think you’ll like Emily Dickinson. Yeah. OK, so that leads to the next question, and that is, what do you do? Maybe you’ve gotten some great lines. You feel pretty sure, but you get to a certain point in the story where you just get stuck.

00:21:11 – 00:21:40
Maybe there’s a gap between where you are and that line you want to get to. How do you work through that? Yeah. So in class it’s a little different because I don’t have the time to just kind of like sit with it and like give it time, which is normally what I do because most of the time I find that if I try to just like sit there and force it, my brain just gets so like clouded and it’s like too much pressure that I’m putting on myself. So I have to like typically leave it for a little bit.

00:21:40 – 00:22:06
And by a little bit, you mean like a couple hours, days? Yeah, usually like a couple hours or like a few days or or really until I feel maybe until like another line pops in my head or until I feel like I finally like have like toyed with that idea enough to where I feel like I know where I want it to go. That’s interesting.

00:22:06 – 00:22:31
That’s interesting. I didn’t even think, thank you for sharing that. I didn’t even think about that. That is sort of an unnatural constraint to have to write in a class, even though it’s like in some way like you guys usually would write for an hour, which is a nice chunk of time, but it doesn’t allow you to stop and walk away and come back. You have to just keep going, so that that’s hard. Yeah, but funnily enough, it’s never been like too much of a problem.

00:22:31 – 00:23:54
in class is like getting stuck. I don’t know why because outside of class I have like plenty of those moments where maybe it’s just because I’m like working on like longer pieces that are supposed to be more connected and I’m trying to like figure out like how I want to connect all these different ideas that I have that I like individually but I don’t know how to pull them together but in class it’s actually never really been that much of an issue. There are definitely times where I get stuck but I feel like I just kind of have to like write through it in those circumstances which is kind of a good practice is like is to both practice stepping away from it and giving yourself time to mull it over and then also just like just put pen in the paper and just keep going because you can always like cross stuff out and be like I don’t want to say that because eventually like eventually you’ll find your transition or you’ll find your like thing it doesn’t have to be right away you don’t have to like say everything that you write in class, of course. No one’s gonna know any different if you don’t say a line that was on the page at one point. It’s no longer there. So yeah, I feel like it’s- That’s really good advice. Sorry. No, no, I was done. Yeah, that’s really good advice because I think because of the particular culture we live in and this whole ridiculous idea of

00:23:54 – 00:24:22
perfection whatever that means. Most people it’s actually called perfection paralysis and that what it is is that we’re so afraid to do anything that’s not perfect we don’t even write the line. So I like that you’re saying just write something and you might if you just keep writing you’re gonna stumble on something it’s just another approach either you can walk away from it or you just keep going until you stumble on the better thing and then you could scratch out parts you don’t like.

00:24:22 – 00:24:51
And nobody has to see them. And if you’re really good at scratching things out, which I’ve definitely developed a specific way of scratching that I feel like you cannot even read through my scratches, then no one will know. I feel like I’ve developed that too. It’s a thing. Because when you realize like the thing that you wrote, you don’t like it, you really don’t want anyone to read it. But nobody has to read it. And of course, no one has to ever even hear you.

00:24:51 – 00:25:20
read it out loud, or on paper, anything you write can stay with you forever. In fact, the ultimate thing, they always talk about this. Like if you have something you’re really frustrated about, something you need to get off your chest, but you don’t want anyone to know, you can write it on a piece of paper and then go literally burn it in the sink. So no one will see it. And it’s just the cathartic experience. But I think there’s a lot to be said also with the letting people hear parts of it, which brings me to the…

00:25:20 – 00:25:48
big, big question, and this is the number one fear of all people, including myself. I don’t share my writing in your class, but I share writing in the women’s classes, and I feel exactly the same every single time I do it. That fear of exposing and sharing your writing that is so personal and so vulnerable, and you honestly don’t know immediately, because it’s right after you’ve written. You don’t have time to think about it right after you’ve written.

00:25:48 – 00:26:18
we ask you to share your writing. So you don’t know in our heads. I think we all think we all think our writing is not worthy of sharing. It’s very normal. So I wanted to ask you to talk about your experience, maybe like over time when you first the first year you wrote with us and then now and then like how do you deal with that anxiety of sharing your works? Yeah.

00:26:18 – 00:26:47
So for me, it’s not so much the vulnerability part. I feel like I have a pretty healthy, if not maybe over-healthy relationship with vulnerability or like sharing things that are personal to me. And maybe that just comes from like going to therapy from such a young age for anxiety and things like that. I think that’s great by the way, I love that you share. Yeah, I was just going to say like, that’s literally an example of telling me. Yeah, that’s great.

00:26:47 – 00:27:55
So yeah, for me, it’s not necessarily like, I mean, there are some pieces where I’m like, okay, yeah, like this is not, this is something I’d typically keep to myself, but I feel like the vulnerability part is the easier part for me to overcome. The harder part for me is definitely like the perfectionism piece, cause I’m totally a perfectionist and… I’m always like reading the piece back and I’m like is that line like really good is that like I’m thinking more about I guess like the words themselves and like how they sound and how they fit together and I’m like it’s just something I’m actually proud of like is this like is it good is this objectively good like if I read this in a novel or something would I be like damn or would I be like I feel like that’s always the hardest part for me like right before I go to read I’m always like what if this sucks like what if this is just terrible and I don’t know it because it’s my voice and I’m like you know I’m used to my voice but like I don’t know so that that’s definitely something that I still have to fight a lot of the time. It’s gotten easier the more years that I’ve been like writing and sharing in that space and I think that that was the intuitive writing project it was definitely really

00:27:55 – 00:28:22
good for me as a writer and as a person in that sense of forcing me to share my voice with other people and get used to the fact that if I do want to be an author, I’m going to have to start being OK with other people reading what I write. So yeah, it’s definitely gotten easier. And I think part of what’s helped with that is, well, a few things. One, you’re not alone.

00:28:22 – 00:29:13
Like every other person in that room doesn’t have to share, but most of the time we all share what we write. Everyone else is in the same boat. And when I’m listening to what they’re saying, I’m not going like, oh, this is awful. I’m like, I’m listening to it. And I’m like, I’m listening. I’m hearing all the beautiful parts about it. And I’m like taking away all the things that are meaningful to me. And I’m. trying to focus on how to lift that person up and let them know how amazing what they’re saying is. So I’m not sitting there and being like, oh, that word was awful or that line could have been better or something. That never once even crosses my mind. So I have to remind myself of that and be like, come on. They’re not here to judge you at all. They’re here to listen to what you have to say and show you that they care and that they hear you.

00:29:13 – 00:29:40
things like that. So that’s definitely helped. And realizing also, like, every word doesn’t have to be perfect. Like every sentence doesn’t have to be like that sentence. And if it was, that’d be kind of tiring. If you’re just hearing a bunch of like one-liners and you kind of be like, oh, okay, like this, these are good. Oh my God, can we have something else here? So like, if you’re reading a book, like not, you’re not amazed by every line.

00:29:40 – 00:31:04
but every word still means something so it’s kind of letting go of that whole like perfectionism part of like everything having to be absolutely perfect in the way that it’s ideally you want it to be because the words are going to come out how they’re going to come out and it’s still going to be just fine oh that is brilliant i love how you everything that you just said there first of all the idea that if every line was perfect it would be boring and we talked about that with like character development. If a character is perfect, boring. Nobody wants a perfect character, which is so ironic that society tells us to be perfect because that’s the most boring thing. But I most loved what you said about when you’re listening, it is the Amherst writing method, of course, the idea that you’re listening for what is beautiful in everybody’s writing. And I love how you said you want to like lift everyone up. And so remembering that that That means everybody else is also listening for what’s beautiful. And so it’s the polar opposite, I feel, of both school and work. Like most things in life are everybody’s looking out for the thing you did wrong. So of course we’re anxious. I mean, honestly, it’s a miracle we’re not even more anxious than we are. Society is so brutal. But I just and I think it does take

00:31:04 – 00:31:33
Like you were saying, it takes a while to get to that place of feeling like, oh, it’s okay here. Because it’s like everything in life trains you to anticipate criticism. And so, yes, it’s very scary and nerve-wracking to share. But once you can just be like, oh, people are here just to lift me up and love my writing. And it doesn’t have to be perfect.

00:31:33 – 00:32:55
And it’s always cool hearing how people like view your stuff because sometimes someone will say something it’s like oh like the connection between that and that I’m like I didn’t think that that’s cool on me that I did that because then people will like say something of how like they relate to it or something like that and it’s like it’s both validating and it’s also cool to like know that like you know people get something out of what you have to say too yes yes yes yes i love that you said that and that is true i mean the reason this is called intuitive writing is because we’re not really it’s just pouring out of us intuitively and of course your intuition is very advanced so you’re actually doing a lot of deep thematic things but you’re not necessarily thinking about them when you’re writing. And so I think you’re absolutely right. Other people can hear. It’s my experience too. Other people pick up on themes and like cool metaphors that I was not conscious of. My unconscious was probably clocking it, but I think that feedback piece is essential because it also shows that you’re not alone, that other people feel like you feel. We always think that what we experience, like we’re like

00:32:55 – 00:33:20
I think I’ve said this before, we all feel uniquely weird and then you read your writing and it’s like, oh no, we’re all weird in the same way. Even none of us are weird, we’re just all equally awesome. That’s the gift of writing, is having other people hear it and validate it, appreciate it. Oh my God. Kayli, you are so brilliant.

00:33:20 – 00:33:47
Every week is amazing and I just want to honor you for having the courage because by the way the definition of courage is being afraid and doing it anyway. So if you weren’t afraid it wouldn’t be as significant. So the fact that you do feel anxious like we all do and you do it anyway and you do get stuck sometimes and you keep writing to me that is the definition of courage.

00:33:47 – 00:34:03
Thank you so much for talking about this process with us. And hopefully it will inspire lots of other young people to keep writing as well. Yeah. Yeah. So thank you for your time. Thank you.

 The Keeper of Joy with Kayli Harley

For our seventh podcast, listen to 19-year-old Kayli Harley read and discuss her brilliant piece, “Keeper of Joy,” in conversation with TIWP founder, Elizabeth Perlman. In this podcast, we talk about the challenges of “holding onto joy,” the joy of imperfection (perfection is boring!), the courage required to speak our truth, and the magic of writing in a positive, encouraging space where everyone is there to lift you up—and reflect back your unique talent as a writer. 

You can read Kayli’s words on our blog, The Intuitive Voice: https://intuitivevoice.org/2022/03/16/keeper-of-joy/ 

To learn more about The Intuitive Writing Project, visit us at:
https://www.intuitivewritingproject.com/ 

Thank you for your time and presence, supporting the voices of girls and gender-expansive youth!

Elizabeth has a BA in Media Arts and a Masters in Transformative Arts, the study of creative expression for healing, connection, and growth. She is also a certified Group Leader in The Amherst Writing Method. Before launching TIWP in 2013, Elizabeth worked for over a decade as a graphic designer and art director in the advertising industry.

Word Magic: The Power of Writing to Reframe Your Story & Reclaim Your Intuition by Elizabeth Perlman is a self-help book that uses writing as a tool for self-discovery, healing, and empowerment, drawing from her “Intuitive Writing Project” for women and girls. It offers practical guidance and over 150 writing prompts to help readers trust themselves, reframe negative narratives, and find their inner wisdom through…

This compilation of 27 poems was written over the course of 25 years, from 1998 to 2023. (The title is reflects the author’s extreme delay in sharing her work—and yes, that is a unicorn finger puppet, taking time to smell the azealas!) The main theme of every poem is self-empowerment: remembering who we really are and reclaiming our innocence, our freedom and our joy. A…

CREDITS– HOST & PRODUCER: Elizabeth Perlman. FEATURED GUEST: Kayli Harley. Hosted by Listen & Be Heard Network.

From Berkeley’s powwow to Tau Omega’s community work in Harlem, with original poetry and live music from the Audio Garden.

Indigenous voices, Harlem youth, poetry, and live music meet in this rewind of our October 8 Listen & Be Heard Hour. We return to these conversations about community and the power of listening as we prepare to gather for music and poetry at iBeam Brooklyn this Saturday, October 17.

This is an unchanged rebroadcast. The powwow and college fair mentioned in the recording have already taken place. Below, you’ll find Jemyah Jones’s follow-up report from the fair and details of our upcoming live session.

This is an unedited transcript of season 4, episode 30 of The Listen & Be Heard Hour. Automated transcription may contain errors in names, wording, and speaker identification.

00:00:20:11 – 00:00:29:04
Speaker 1
Listen as the sound enters my inner ear and vibrates through my inner plane, my biosphere.

00:00:29:06 – 00:00:33:26
Speaker 2
Part of me learning to be a better listener of others is learning to listen to myself.

00:00:33:27 – 00:00:44:04
Speaker 3
When we are listen to, truly listen to. You know you can feel when someone’s deeply listening and we feel heard, we are healed in that moment.

00:00:44:06 – 00:00:51:15
Speaker 4
Listen and be heard. Even if your voice shakes without knowing it, you may be saving a stranger.

00:00:51:17 – 00:00:55:05
Speaker 1
Listening to be heard is. I guess, part of why.

00:00:55:05 – 00:01:19:21
Speaker 5
I want to connect with you for this. Soon as you said that it like stuck quarter on my soul. Welcome to the Audio Garden where we cultivate our collective wisdom, nurture creativity, and spread love. My name is Martha, Senator, and this is. Listen and be heard.

00:01:19:23 – 00:01:25:00
Speaker 6
Hey, welcome back to the Audio Garden.

00:01:25:03 – 00:01:56:07
Speaker 6
It’s the pleasure being here with you. There’s a lot to share. Kim McMillan at the Audio Garden. We have so many wonderful things as well as new recordings with John Mayer. Jones speaks with one of the oldest sororities support Harlem. So again, you hear some poetry and new music, as always. And don’t forget you. Thank you. Martha. Senator Soundsystem culture and listening to be heard.

00:01:56:07 – 00:01:57:04
Speaker 6
Network.

00:01:57:06 – 00:01:59:22
Speaker 1
I’m artificially intelligent.

00:01:59:24 – 00:02:27:27
Speaker 7
I look in the mirror and think that what I see is me. And drink a bottle of water from a plastic cup and tell you what’s up and what’s down, and when to smile and when to frown. And I look in the mirror and think that what I want to see is me. And I drink a bottle of clean, fresh water in the side that I’m pretty and sticky sweet.

00:02:27:29 – 00:02:58:07
Speaker 7
And I drink some more water from a plastic cup because I’m so thirsty. And I look in the mirror and I think I see me. But I’m really a man with money and power. And I am the mirror that lies and pretends to be wise, spitting out platitudes with attitudes and give me more water. I’m so bursty, so give it to me and let’s not talk about food sovereignty.

00:02:58:10 – 00:03:25:29
Speaker 7
Let’s look in the mirror and not see me. And who I am not is no concern of mine. I don’t have time for that. I look in the mirror and I want to see someone younger and more fun and nose to hide. Come say please to the mirror and believe the platitudes. Let go of any attitude that me might be we.

00:03:26:01 – 00:03:40:06
Speaker 7
And what I don’t see and what isn’t there is where I want to go. But I don’t know anything. But I’m really thirsty. And that’s what’s important to me.

00:03:40:09 – 00:04:27:13
Speaker 7
Welcome back to the. Audio Garden, my friends. Our sense of justice is is really deeply whether we want to believe it or not. And an inheritance and an inheritance of hope. You know, that’s a spiritual inheritance. I think that we have and we don’t always want to claim it. I want to compact it into something. I love this that you’re saying right now, though, that technology has taken us, and I really do spend time with the media arm of this discourse, the young ones that are really asking the question and and reopening up that opportunity to do, to speak out, you know, beyond the the doors of the courts, to bring it into a common

00:04:27:13 – 00:04:28:18
Speaker 7
language so that people.

00:04:28:23 – 00:04:46:28
Speaker 6
Coming right up at the garden gates, I believe it’s Kim McMillan interviewing Marie Hernandez for Indigenous Peoples Day from Berkeley, California. Check it out.

00:04:47:00 – 00:05:12:19
Speaker 8
I my name is Kim McMillan with listen and be heard. And I want to welcome the audience to this talk with this incredible human being. Marie Hernandez born in Oakland, California to and Michael Garcia. She is an enrolled member of the Hoopa Valley Tribe, serving on the Indigenous People Day Powwow Committee. She is this year’s powwow coordinator for 2026.

00:05:12:21 – 00:05:39:24
Speaker 8
She carries a masters in Indigenous People Law and currently works as an ice w, a manager at the American Indian Child Resource Center. Marie, I am just so happy to have you on the show. What you have to say is really important for people who don’t know what Indigenous Peoples Day Powwow is all about. What do you believe it means to the community?

00:05:39:24 – 00:05:45:03
Speaker 8
To me? I lived in Berkeley during that time. I thought it was very, very important.

00:05:45:04 – 00:06:04:12
Speaker 1
It is a very significant day. Thank you so much for the introduction. And, you know, growing up in the Bay area. We were taught about Columbus Day. We’re taught about how great he was, how he came here and discovered America. And every year at school we celebrated that day. And very little was always talked about the indigenous people and being Native American.

00:06:04:17 – 00:06:25:11
Speaker 1
It’s always been an ongoing theme that a lot of our stories were never told. And so as an adult, I really wanted to find out what were the things that happened in our history. And then when the Indigenous Peoples Day came to be to me, it really struck me as old. Finally, we have a day that recognizes us and sees this as not a positive day for indigenous people.

00:06:25:11 – 00:06:35:09
Speaker 1
It’s actually a day of a lot of suffering and untold history. I stand by this day because it’s actually a truth telling day of what happened 534 years ago.

00:06:35:10 – 00:06:50:05
Speaker 8
Can you also tell how Berkeley became involved? It really shows the commitment of Native American rights as well as the rights of people of color, period. Can you give us something about the history of how we came?

00:06:50:11 – 00:07:12:21
Speaker 1
Yes. The one thing I, I like to highlight is that it was both indigenous and non-Indigenous people that work together that made this happen. This was not just in the hands of indigenous people. We had a lot of allies during that time. You mentioned about the history. John Crow wrote this great book, and it does go through every detail about how that day came to be.

00:07:12:23 – 00:07:37:09
Speaker 1
It involved the UN, and a lot of people of City of Berkeley were the main players in those movements to get this day recognized and to get that information out. The city of Berkeley really stepped up and was a great pillar. And actually recognizing that day as the Indigenous Peoples Day. And it was the first time in all of U.S. history that a city changed that day to Indigenous Peoples Day to recognize that truth and recognize that history.

00:07:37:15 – 00:07:47:03
Speaker 1
So it’s very monumental. Even the mayor at that time was involved as well. That’s was the start of the proclamation. And we had then with the city of Berkeley to recognize this day as such.

00:07:47:06 – 00:08:05:12
Speaker 8
What you said, John Curl, you mentioned his name and he documented that. And he’s not Native American, but I’ve known him for about 30 years. He has a heart of gold. These issues meet a great deal to him. He went to Ecuador. People met from around the world. Yeah.

00:08:05:16 – 00:08:33:01
Speaker 1
It was very international. There’s indigenous people all over the world. That’s one of the things I learned in school is, you know, how many indigenous people are fighting still for their rights in their land and to live, live their ways. That was a great international connection of what indigenous people go through. Is another great highlight of this pow wow is that we don’t just talk about, you know, Native Americans in in Northern America, we talk about both northern and Southern American indigenous peoples.

00:08:33:01 – 00:08:55:19
Speaker 1
And that’s our connection, because when that vote came, both the North and South were affected very greatly. We share that history with each other. And in John’s book, they he explains about the connections, the eagle, which represents the Northern America and the condor represents the southern Americas and the connection that we have as a people. And again, yes, locally, you know, there’s indigenous people that love for the land.

00:08:55:19 – 00:09:03:06
Speaker 1
And that connection to culture is what keeps us together and what keeps us fighting, because that’s our bloodline that we’re connected to. Is the land the most?

00:09:03:13 – 00:09:33:01
Speaker 8
We’re asking the communities all around the Bay area and further, to please consider coming to this important day happening in Berkeley at Martin Luther King Junior Civic Center Park. And it’s going to be October 10th from 10 a.m. to 6 p.m.. And as I said, the entire community, it doesn’t matter what what your background is. This is a community event and it’s free to the public.

00:09:33:03 – 00:09:40:27
Speaker 8
Can you tell us something about this community event that might be helpful for the people who may this may be their first pow wow.

00:09:41:04 – 00:10:02:22
Speaker 1
Thank you so much for saying this. This is a community event. This is for everybody. Everyone should be able to connect in some way to this day. Everyone’s I feel as indigenous to somewhere. You have ancestral roots that connect you to a piece of land that connect you to a people. It’s important to know that you carry that with you, that your bloodline leads to somewhere.

00:10:02:24 – 00:10:29:05
Speaker 1
And even though it may not be to this land, that connection is still very much alive and we make it a very friendly event. Notice we want children very young, you know, to be there. We make it very accessible for our elders too. We have a special section that we have to make sure that elders get seating. Elders is another ancestral, excuse me, indigenous teaching that I learned that we, you know, children and ancestors are at almost the center of our circle, that we protect a lot.

00:10:29:09 – 00:10:52:11
Speaker 1
And if it is someone’s first pow wow. Yes it is. And if you’ve never been to one, this is probably the best one in the Bay area to go to. Not being biased, but yeah, I think it’s really great because it’s, you know, it’s outside, it’s out the park. It’s in the heart of Berkeley. You know, Berkeley has its own history when it comes to standing up for rights and standing up for for people of color.

00:10:52:16 – 00:11:15:24
Speaker 1
And so it’s just a great space to gather. There’s going to be great vendors there. I mean, someone everyone will find something that connects to them. You know, our community is again very focused on family friendly, you know, some activities for the kids. It’s alcohol and drug free. If you do have questions, we do encourage people to ask, you know, maybe you don’t know or if it’s appropriate to take a picture with somebody.

00:11:15:24 – 00:11:34:22
Speaker 1
They just ask, you know, it’s always good to just ask. And, you know, usually people are very open to talking about their culture. This is something that’s very dear and near to their heart, and would be more than happy to sit with someone and explain what this dance means. We have a great MC, we have a dual MC and a Powell coordinator.

00:11:34:28 – 00:11:59:13
Speaker 1
We’re very knowledgeable within the community for many, many years. So anybody from the committee staff or the head staff would be more, more than happy to answer any questions. We also encourage people to actually dance with us. We have an intertribal dance where people in regalia, even in street clothes, can come out and just feel feel the ground underneath them, hear the drums and be in that circle that connects us all.

00:11:59:13 – 00:12:23:18
Speaker 1
So. So you also encourage people to come and and just and enjoy themselves and enjoy the food, you know, the vendors, the atmosphere. Powells is one of our my favorite things to do. And it’s just a great place to gather when we’re we’re dancing. We’re we’re praying, you know, so and we’re connecting with the land. It’s just a really great place to be, both for indigenous and non-Indigenous community members.

00:12:23:21 – 00:13:05:07
Speaker 1
This year we have some really great companies and organizations. Art drums, some of them come from all over. They have some tribes from Seminole, Laguna, Pueblo, Ecuador, Southern Ute, Milwaukee, Cherokee, Choctaw, San Carlos, Apache, Mescalero Apache, intertribal organizations, STK and they have art jewelry. I think I mentioned drums, you know, clothing, medicines, you know, things from where their ancestral roots are.

00:13:05:10 – 00:13:29:10
Speaker 1
They bring those crafts. To 20, 26, which is, again, these are thousands and thousands of year old traditions and materials that, you know, that were passed down to all those times you’re actually actually actually seeing kind of history coming into today because these, this art and everything, these, these are all passed down from generation to generation. So you get to see that showcased in the vendor booths.

00:13:29:13 – 00:13:39:05
Speaker 8
Oh, and also I heard that if you are a musician like a drummer, you can bring your drum if you have an appropriate drum. Is that okay?

00:13:39:06 – 00:13:58:27
Speaker 1
In our fire, we mentioned we welcome all drums. If you do, we have our northern drum, which is that host drum is all nations. And then we have style which is a southern drum. And it’s a little bit slower beat than the northern drum. And then we also a lot of people use hand drum. So it’s just a single drum.

00:13:58:27 – 00:14:22:19
Speaker 1
Where did they go. And they can they can do hand drums. Usually drummers actually sit with them to drum if they’ve been in that circle before. And so depending on, you know, which style of drum and if the drum actually allows you to go and sit with them to drum, well, you know, we do welcome that. Make sure you register with the register table at the Powell if you want to do like a song or something.

00:14:22:21 – 00:14:40:21
Speaker 1
Yeah. Having those connection to those drummers to we always welcome you know drummers from all around you know from again the the eagle to the condor. You know, we want you know both even though they’re maybe made a different things or have different songs. We always do that as, as as well as dancing. Your drumming is just the heartbeat.

00:14:40:21 – 00:14:53:03
Speaker 1
The heartbeat is what connects all of us. It’s all of us have beating hearts. And so that drum is another thing that kind of just connects us all in its universal. You know, everyone has that beating heart so everyone can connect to that drum.

00:14:53:04 – 00:14:59:27
Speaker 8
I agree with that. I love the idea that people can take part in so many ways.

00:14:59:29 – 00:15:06:07
Speaker 9
This is listen and be heard. Radio wlbh.org.

00:15:06:10 – 00:15:29:17
Speaker 8
I want to make sure people know that there is a lot of food and that there are still activities for little kids. So maybe if you have like 5 or 6 or even a 15 year old who’s never been to a power or who actually has and enjoys it, please come. And can you give us a little bit about what type of things are going to be offered for young people?

00:15:29:19 – 00:15:54:15
Speaker 1
Yes. So the we mentioned the food. We have two great food vendors. One is tacos, which is the fry bread taco, which some people know about. If you haven’t tried one, you should absolutely try one. You can get a vegetarian style or one with lots of meat. You see, it’s great for all ages, even if for the younger ones.

00:15:54:15 – 00:16:17:21
Speaker 1
They like it with the strawberry and the honey. They like a little sweet too. So you can also get it that style as well. And then we have a Mexican, Las Cabanas food truck that’s also going to be there that has, you know, more of the southern flavors and Mexican, dishes for them. So again, you’re getting a little bit of the, the North and the South when it comes to food.

00:16:17:23 – 00:16:37:04
Speaker 1
But yeah, they’re really delicious food. And I do want to do a shout out to the farmers market who will also be there to because they’re a great partner with us every year. You know, we have to share that space with them and we’re they’re great partner, partner with us. They they help us with equipment and everything too.

00:16:37:04 – 00:16:45:29
Speaker 1
So I want to shout out the farmer’s market. So you do on some fresh vegetables and fruit. You know, to they have they have some really some really great produce there too.

00:16:46:01 – 00:17:16:00
Speaker 8
Excellent. So if you want to eat, just have fun. Whatever feels good to you. That’s legal. It’s it’s the place to be and it’s just a really strong staple. It’s been 34 years. So this is something that’s truly a part of Berkeley’s history. And I’m just as a member. Are you surprised that it’s become so much a part of the history of Berkeley?

00:17:16:03 – 00:17:43:16
Speaker 1
Not surprised, not surprised, given, you know, Berkeley’s history. And but it’s it’s good to still have their support after all these years that they still see us as very significant. And and because Berkeley is the first you know, they they wanted they want that history still told that we’re the first one to to to stand shoulder to shoulder with indigenous people and claim this day for them.

00:17:43:18 – 00:18:10:03
Speaker 1
I’m glad you mentioned about my work. I do at the American Indian Resource Centers because native people are urban. Native people are still suffering. They’re still struggling in this urban area. So having it in a major city to like Berkeley, where you have the university and all the, you know, all these things, there’s there’s still a space for indigenous people to still have a, have a safe space where we can we can gather, we can pray, we can, we can be with one another.

00:18:10:03 – 00:18:28:11
Speaker 1
We can be a community. We can be with the public, you know, to open for everyone to, to join us. I, I wanted to mention to you about the we had mentioned about little kids. We do have a tiny tot contest, and we invite all little kids five and under can come and join, and they go out there and they can just dance around.

00:18:28:12 – 00:18:31:24
Speaker 1
Everyone win. Everyone gets a prize afterwards, too, which is nice.

00:18:31:26 – 00:18:32:15
Speaker 8
I love.

00:18:32:16 – 00:18:56:28
Speaker 1
That indigenous people were always thinking of the next seven generations, and so we know that how important our children are and they’re the ones that are going to pass on, you know, these ways and these teachings. And so having having that those values, those indigenous values can definitely help us help people out. Now, I can I can go on and on about my social work and stuff about those kind of issues.

00:18:56:28 – 00:19:19:27
Speaker 1
But protecting children is so important now. And the city has given us a space where we can we can still, even 34 years, still have this day. And I hope to have it for another 34 something years. My son, who’s 13 now, but when I first started on committee, would actually chalk the Powell circle. And, and I want him to continue to be part of that, you know, into his adulthood.

00:19:19:28 – 00:19:24:21
Speaker 1
Because, again, having that connection to this day is so very important.

00:19:24:23 – 00:19:35:07
Speaker 8
And I, I thank you for being on listen and be heard and giving us this information. Now, if people want to get in touch with the committee, how can they get in contact with you?

00:19:35:09 – 00:19:59:24
Speaker 1
We do have a website. It’s IDP powwow.org which stands for Indigenous Peoples Day. Powell dot dot org. You can also call for leave a voice message and we’ll give you a call back. (510) 595-5520. We also have a peel box two which is on our website and on our flier if you do want to send letters or. But yeah, we.

00:19:59:25 – 00:20:00:25
Speaker 8
Donate sons.

00:20:01:00 – 00:20:18:22
Speaker 1
Yes, you can donate funds. We do have an Instagram page finally, which is nice. It’s only got two pictures on it, but that’s a that’s another work in progress to to get us more out in social media too. We are you know, asking for volunteers to. So yeah please call us email us if you’d like to come and volunteer.

00:20:18:24 – 00:20:40:17
Speaker 1
But yeah, we just encourage everyone to come out and just enjoy. Supposed to be a gorgeous day again, this is the of years of ancestral knowledge being brought to the city of Berkeley in 2026. And again, I feel everyone has a connection to some type of indigenous roots inside of them. And again, that drum that be the the food.

00:20:40:19 – 00:20:55:12
Speaker 1
I mean, everything about that day is just so welcoming. And again, we encourage everyone to come and participate, you know, and ask questions. Being able to show representation and be able to highlight ourselves is just another huge reason why I’m on this committee.

00:20:55:12 – 00:21:08:03
Speaker 8
And they are lucky that you are on the committee. And I thank you for being on listen and be heard. I learned so much just talking to you. Thank you very much. Take care.

00:21:08:10 – 00:21:36:00
Speaker 6
Thank you. Kim McMillan and Maria Hernandez. Wonderful. Hey, hey, hey. This isn’t to Miss Jones as she interviews Tau Omega. It’s the 14th oldest chapter in the region. We’ll just graduate chapter the train state area. Decades. Over a hundred years of legacy and focused on service in Harlem. Thank you for reaching out to these amazing women, these amazing sisters.

00:21:36:03 – 00:22:06:03
Speaker 6
We’ve done so much for our community in Harlem. So Towel Mega always refers to the town Mega chapter of the Alpha Kappa Alpha sorority incorporated as it’s called. They are the oldest graduate chapter of the sorority in New York metropolitan area, and has served the Harlem community since 1925. Amazing. So this is how we do it. And Jamia Jones learning about everything from mental health to scholarships.

00:22:06:05 – 00:22:30:04
Speaker 6
So thank you. This is what we do and listen and be heard. We support our community and we tell the stories of the people that need to be told. These women are heroes in our community in Harlem. Historically, there were engineering fraternity established in 1927 from the Tau Omega Sorority, which then merged to form Sigma Gamma to 1953.

00:22:30:05 – 00:22:35:29
Speaker 6
But anyway, just there’s a history there. So much to learn.

00:22:36:01 – 00:22:54:09
Speaker 10
Start off telling you a little about listen and be heard. We are new to Harlem. We’re Harlem based network, and we basically are platform for a multimedia. Been going to a lot of jazz in the Harlem area. I’m from Carolina, so I’ve been covering a lot of the things that I don’t usually see there. Basically, our platform is a space for people to promote free media.

00:22:54:11 – 00:23:01:23
Speaker 10
From my understanding, y’all, we’re at the Harlem Week Festival and you have a nonprofit. What’s a nonprofit called?

00:23:01:27 – 00:23:05:00
Speaker 11
It’s the Tall Nega Charitable Trust Fund, Incorporated.

00:23:05:01 – 00:23:08:17
Speaker 10
What does your organization bring to Harlem?

00:23:08:18 – 00:23:42:11
Speaker 11
So we bring a long history of scholarship, service and support. Organization was started in 1968 by the mega chapter of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, incorporated, which was the first chapter of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority Incorporated in New York. So since 1968, we were also one of the first chapters in the organization to form a 501 C three.

00:23:42:13 – 00:24:03:27
Speaker 11
Our initial mission was to provide scholarships to young people, as well as to support the community with other initiatives as well as helping. Well, at that time, they call it the poor and community based organizations. And since then, we have continued that mission in various with various programs and activities.

00:24:04:03 – 00:24:18:23
Speaker 10
That’s amazing. That’s a long history. Y’all hosted the college fair in August, and I was interested in knowing how you anticipate what the community needs. Like, how do you anticipate what events you throw for the community?

00:24:18:25 – 00:24:20:19
Speaker 11
Okay, so in August.

00:24:20:22 – 00:24:31:07
Speaker 1
When we were. Tabling during. Harlem Week, we were actually promoting the event. So the. College fair will take place at Columbia University on Saturday, October 10th from.

00:24:31:07 – 00:24:31:21
Speaker 11
12 to.

00:24:31:22 – 00:24:43:07
Speaker 1
4 p.m.. We will have 30 plus representatives, and we will also offer workshops and so health workshops, as well as how it’s readiness workshops.

00:24:43:10 – 00:24:49:08
Speaker 10
Is mental health and college readiness. What you usually focus on when it comes to hosting these events?

00:24:49:09 – 00:25:10:27
Speaker 11
So it depends on our audience. So say for Harlem Week it was a community event. So we were there promoting all of our programs, all of the programs of our nonprofit organizations, one of which is our mental health program, the Making It Through program, as well as we partner with the Mega chapter for the college fair. So we were promoting the college fair.

00:25:10:29 – 00:25:36:04
Speaker 11
We also have a family daycare program, so we were promoting that as well as we offer scholarships within the community. So different at different times of the year. We are in the community just letting them know the different things that we do, and those are the main things that we are doing right now at that time. So throughout the year, there are also other activities that we do in conjunction with Tom Mega chapter.

00:25:36:05 – 00:25:47:18
Speaker 11
So it depends upon what activities are going on. What would we be in the community promoting? But right now our emphasis is on our upcoming college fair.

00:25:47:22 – 00:25:51:27
Speaker 10
College fair is up and coming. Is there anything else that you have planned in the near future?

00:25:51:28 – 00:26:22:07
Speaker 11
In November? On November 15th, we are also collaborating with Tom Mega chapter to have a concert at a church of the Masters where our in-house quiet will be singing along with a Broadway star from The Lion King and Afternoon of Music. And that will be from 4 to 6 p.m.. That program will also feature some dancers, and it will also kick off our Giving Tuesday event.

00:26:22:15 – 00:27:00:07
Speaker 11
Other things that I mentioned that we do as a nonprofit, as we support community based organizations annually, we make contributions to about 6 or 7 organizations where we give them cash donations. We will be making those donations at least to 2 or 3 of our organizations that we support. So they’ll come. We’ll make the big check donations to them, and it will also kick off our ask about supporters to contribute to us for Giving Tuesday, which is an annual fundraising day for all nonprofits, which is December 1st.

00:27:00:09 – 00:27:01:24
Speaker 10
I think I’ve heard of Giving Tuesday.

00:27:01:25 – 00:27:05:24
Speaker 11
Yeah, most nonprofits have their annual fundraising events.

00:27:05:24 – 00:27:25:12
Speaker 10
I’m happy to meet you too today. Hopefully I can come to the nonprofit events like the college fair or maybe the concert. I’m just new to the area and I’m trying to see different organizations doing things in Harlem. I just went to do some community service at Harlem Grow. I want to learn more about them and how they’ve continued to develop as well.

00:27:25:12 – 00:27:34:01
Speaker 10
So I will probably reach out again for maybe a photo of some of the fliers that I can put in my right up to support and let people know about your events as well.

00:27:34:01 – 00:27:37:22
Speaker 11
So will you be sharing this information on your website?

00:27:37:23 – 00:27:38:22
Speaker 10
Yes, ma’am.

00:27:38:24 – 00:27:52:04
Speaker 11
So if you are interested in coming to any of our events, if you reach out and let us know, we will let you come as press. Thank you. Just reach out and let us know that you want to come and we will give you a press pass. Okay.

00:27:52:05 – 00:27:54:12
Speaker 10
Thank you so much, I appreciate that.

00:27:54:16 – 00:27:55:19
Speaker 11
I would like to add.

00:27:55:21 – 00:28:23:00
Speaker 1
I am a board member in the lead of the Making It Through program. We call it T program. Now I stepped down as lead, but I work as a consultant for the program. I think it’s very important. The program exists to serve young people in the Harlem community. So our target audience are young people from about age 14 to to 24, and we teach them about the signs and symptoms of mental health behaviors.

00:28:23:00 – 00:28:45:11
Speaker 1
We’re trying to encourage them to get support because there’s such a stigma in our community. So we want them to buy into the idea of seeking therapy. And so we’ll go into community centers. We may go into schools, whoever we will go in. It’s a free service. We also have a podcast and we have monthly newsletters which are fantastic, phenomenal.

00:28:45:13 – 00:28:49:17
Speaker 1
And so I think that’s a very important program and it’s worth mentioning it.

00:28:49:18 – 00:29:06:27
Speaker 10
Absolutely. I was just talking about how need therapy today. So I’m glad that you mentioned that. Yeah. So I will write a follow up email just so I can get involved on the newsletter, maybe for MIT, because I think that’s something that I would like to cover as well. Thank you both for taking the time out of the day to meet with me.

00:29:07:03 – 00:29:10:28
Speaker 1
It’s worth coming out for, especially spreading the word if you happen to know young people.

00:29:10:29 – 00:29:13:05
Speaker 10
I do know some young people, so I will be spreading.

00:29:13:05 – 00:29:14:12
Speaker 11
The word. Yeah. Thank you.

00:29:14:15 – 00:29:18:25
Speaker 10
Thank you. You all have a wonderful day. Thank you. I will send you a follow up email.

00:29:18:28 – 00:29:19:19
Speaker 11
Okay. Bye bye.

00:29:19:19 – 00:29:20:01
Speaker 10
Bye bye.

00:29:20:09 – 00:29:21:15
Speaker 11
Oh, that was good.

00:29:21:16 – 00:30:00:04
Speaker 6
That’s right. That was really good. That’s how we listen. To be heard. Give voice to our young people as they learn and explore in real time what it is to discover the elders in our community. What it looks like to be supportive of our communities, not just Harlem. So already right on sisters.

00:30:00:07 – 00:30:16:10
Speaker 6
I’m Darryl from Listening and Be Heard Network. And we have a thing where we we say listen and be heard. And then we finish the phrase, what does it mean to you on a day like today, to the year we’re celebrating Coltrane’s birthday? New young people were a lot of great masters. And you’re the new masters coming up.

00:30:16:13 – 00:30:31:14
Speaker 6
Rodriguez here, there’s Billy Sacks and all the great cats are beer. And these young men came and they are going to perform right and are in Colton, but in the name of humanity. So when this is going to be heard because and then you all do one.

00:30:31:16 – 00:30:32:10
Speaker 12
Can you come back to me?

00:30:32:12 – 00:30:46:02
Speaker 6
You come back to you. Yeah. Yes. To be heard. Because that’s where it’s important. Because you’re supposed to be heard. Emotion. Listen and be heard. Because it’s important to spread music. And I would say listening, be heard because you would never know who’s watching.

00:30:46:09 – 00:30:48:19
Speaker 5
Listen and be heard because.

00:30:48:21 – 00:30:49:15
Speaker 5
It’s important.

00:30:49:15 – 00:30:55:20
Speaker 13
To be to be confident, but to also, bring out people who are less confident.

00:30:55:25 – 00:31:52:08
Speaker 6
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Leo.

00:31:52:10 – 00:31:59:22
Speaker 5
All the way we are. It’s all the ways. Always the way.

00:32:00:00 – 00:32:34:18
Speaker 14
It’s in the bin in the back room. Back shelf stacked away for another day. Another way left in the darkness. The absence of sight. Making light of. Made invisible on the official record of what? Actually the way it was is will be back. Better to butter the burnt toast. Smother the roast with your special gravy. You don’t share to the recipe.

00:32:34:18 – 00:33:03:10
Speaker 14
There is no we see, we feel. We break legs, not bread. Begging is part of the art of capital W for we for the way the only known the phone in in from where no one cares. Over there where we are not the way it’s always. We’ve been, we’re not always was the thing to sing a brand new melody.

00:33:03:13 – 00:33:35:22
Speaker 14
Do dum dum. Your thumb is stained with the blueberry pie I am all the ways that we are. Have never will be. Come on, let’s go. We know we don’t want. Want for what? We don’t need to see. Nothing is all the ways, all ways. Always.

00:33:35:25 – 00:33:46:24
Speaker 15
Always afraid of.

00:33:46:27 – 00:35:35:01
Speaker 15
Always have for love.

00:35:35:03 – 00:35:53:22
Speaker 16
I think listening is like a really crucial part of my own practice and being heard. I guess there’s a difference between listening and being heard, right? Like, I, I feel like listening is sort of at the core of so much. Like if we listen to each other, you know, I think that we’ll hear better.

00:35:53:24 – 00:36:22:15
Speaker 6
And hey what’s up? This is the biggest listen and be heard. Network release. Play some cool surprises here that you will hear anywhere else. New work that was recorded by the great Craig Harris features myself and Jordan Davis, Russell Carter and Alexis Porcello, and the band went on to play well. I just wanted to be a little extra, but that was like in the 15.

00:36:22:18 – 00:38:05:13
Speaker 6
I mean, the community together and independent journalism, all these things that Martha Senator has put into our mission as a radio podcast show, being able to go live with so many great surprises, please don’t forget to donate to our cause at Soundsystem Culture that world. What? Listen and be heard. Network. Okay, everything here is going to go to giving voice to our people and our community.

00:38:05:16 – 00:38:41:06
Speaker 6
Not just Harlem, but all over the world. Hey, hope you enjoyed this show. That right there is the great Preston forward on piano and Martha, Senator and Kenji and I self last week. And this is what you can look forward to on October 17th and from 1 to 5 at I-beam 168 seventh Street and Gowanus, Brooklyn. Yeah.

00:38:41:07 – 00:44:57:04
Speaker 6
We’re producing new shows. We are going to most likely go live that day from IBM. So, we hope you can join us. Okay. All right. Now check it out.

00:44:57:06 – 00:47:42:26
Speaker 15
Later with the one thing.

00:47:42:28 – 00:48:15:26
Speaker 14
That causes grief. He knows what we don’t. He’s forgotten where he came from and reminds us to cross our legs. Perhaps it’s a shame, but we should not be. He belongs to me. And I mean to him. Then journey to me. Big daddy.

00:48:15:28 – 00:48:26:10
Speaker 14
Celebrate. How great! More faith to be born. Gloria Hahn.

00:48:26:13 – 00:48:27:03
Speaker 15
Scoring.

00:48:27:07 – 00:49:02:03
Speaker 14
May not call me hot. Yes, I am a burning fire in your soul that will cook your raw emotions and make potions to you. And a notion that you ever did anything on your own. Create the world and we. Are you a cheat? Are we sunbathing our mothers with joy? No boys around the Canadian toy and play with say, as big mother.

00:49:02:06 – 00:51:27:13
Speaker 14
Our bigger betters, our mother. Cups and saucers never read Chaucer blues. Bossier.

00:51:27:16 – 00:51:34:23
Speaker 15
Breaks pavement playing the songs of evening. And then breaks spending.

00:51:34:25 – 00:52:27:13
Speaker 6
Hey. What’s up? This is Jay Rodriguez. Sierra. What’s happening?

00:52:27:20 – 00:52:29:22
Speaker 15
So I me.

00:52:29:25 – 00:52:57:03
Speaker 6
It’s amazing what’s been happening. We are accomplishing our mission. With sound system culture or using. Listen and be heard. Network as I wait to get our message and sailing out to the people. With great artists like West and Forward, a great friend and great artists that really should be more known in this world. And so we’re here for that.

00:52:57:06 – 00:53:26:03
Speaker 6
We are the organization that means to bring light to these things. For some, food was one of the great. So we’ve been doing it every week, along with Ganges and Ahab. Omar, who just recently joined us in Dara Marie, another flutist, and of course, Martha, Senator, who’s a host and, executive director of Sound System Culture.

00:53:26:09 – 00:53:55:06
Speaker 6
Please support our work. We are about to really take off, and it’s a new ensemble. So again, question for Jay Rodriguez. Can you watch the Senator and have one more? We’ll be playing October 17th and I’ve been. So I hope to see you there. All right. Now probably a live broadcast. All right. Now peace out.

00:53:55:08 – 00:54:00:06
Speaker 15
Well, word to say.

00:54:00:08 – 00:54:01:02
Speaker 14
You want.

00:54:01:02 – 00:54:08:16
Speaker 15
Me to better be a friend, I church.

00:54:08:19 – 00:54:10:13
Speaker 15
It seems to free to.

00:54:10:14 – 00:54:13:16
Speaker 14
Me for.

00:54:13:19 – 00:54:28:06
Speaker 15
Your answer.

00:54:28:09 – 00:54:32:10
Speaker 15
But don’t know.

00:54:32:12 – 00:54:37:19
Speaker 15
Was in one. To jump.

00:54:37:22 – 00:54:57:07
Speaker 15
You can step around subway. Glad to action world right to slow.

00:54:57:10 – 00:54:59:22
Speaker 15
Each and every.

00:54:59:24 – 00:55:43:00
Speaker 17
It’s a brand new day and the thrift store is not far from a place called Tryon where we’re at right now. Birthplace of the great Nina Simone. And the store is where people try on this and try on that. But Nina never fit in, try on or maybe try on. Never fit her. The woman walks past the fitting room into another light befitting a queen, moving as such, waiting deep in the night, stars past the cutting glare of fluorescent lights.

00:55:43:03 – 00:55:58:09
Speaker 17
And that’s upon hearing try on about Nina Simone. Much honor and much love to the grace and immortal Nina Simone.

00:55:58:12 – 00:56:36:27
Speaker 9
Thanks, as always to Davion Dial at PVM Radio in Asheville, North Carolina for introducing listen to be heard to the broadcast airwaves. Casey II in Taos, New Mexico KEP in San Antonio, Texas, KHOI in Ames, Iowa, and in Red bluff, California and other stations that are part of the Pacifica affiliate network for cultivating the audio garden in your communities and our own Listening Bird Network, host of w.org.

00:56:37:00 – 00:57:00:14
Speaker 9
Please visit us at listen and Net and sign up for our email newsletter and add our Listen and Be Heard YouTube channel, where you will find unedited video interviews of our featured guests. My name is Martha Senator, and I want to thank you for listening and giving me the opportunity to be heard.

Hear the broadcast, then join us in the room: Sound System Culture presents an afternoon of music and poetry with Maestro Jay Rodriguez Sierra and friends at iBeam Brooklyn on Saturday, October 17. Doors open at 2 p.m.; music continues until 5 p.m. Admission is $20 suggested, pay what you can.

Jemyah Jones’s follow-up report from the Tau Omega college fair, with additional participant audio.

Original reporting: this event has now taken place.

A look at the musicians, poets, and shared moments behind our music and poetry gatherings.

Preston Fulwood is an artist, musician, reiki healer, producer, composer and instructor. Preston is a master instrumentalist and vocalist and is a well known studio musician and jazz pianist.

Hernán Ramiro Rodriguez Sierra – Musician, Composer, Producer

Dr. Kim McMillon, a producer and playwright, has multiple notable works including the anthology Some Other Blues and Black Fire—This Time. She created the one-woman show Confessions of a Thespian and directed Voyages, both showcased at various theaters. Additionally, her essay “Ancestor as Refugee” was published in the SAGE Encyclopedia of Refugee Studies.

Martha Cinader is a poet and author living in Harlem, NY. Her young adult novel, Marq and the Queen Fish, is forthcoming in 2026 from Atmosphere Press. Cinader is the founder and Director of the Listen & Be Heard Network, where she hosts and produces The Listen & Be Heard Hour, and Beyond Borders, both non-commercial podcasts and syndicated radio shows…

Tony Robles, “The People’s Poet” was born in San Francisco and is the nephew of Filipino-American poet, historian and social justice activist Al Robles. He was a shortlist nominee for poet laureate of San Francisco in 2017 and the recipient of the San Francisco Art Commission individual literary artist grant in 2018. His two books…

A young boy named Lakas discovers that a fish from his dreams might be real—leading him on a lively, magical chase through San Francisco’s Manilatown.

“This collection is based on my experiences and observations as someone who witnessed Hurricane Helene and its impact on the community—particularly my mobile home community in Hendersonville,”

Living It! is Martha Cinader’s debut as the producer of her own album, and features an eclectic array of arrangements and musical styles. It was recorded in part in a studio in New York City, part in a studio in Hamburg, and part live at the Mojo Club in Hamburg, throw in some bonus tracks…

In this remarkable collection, Tony Robles transforms a bright-lit warehouse into a psychic landscape to illuminate one man’s efforts to reassemble a broken life. Where the Warehouse Things Are gives the satisfaction of a book of poetry as well as a novelistic sense of a place and its inhabitants fully rendered. — Ron Rash, author…

In Thrift Store Metamorphosis, Tony Robles astutely demonstrates the palpable currency of human interactions. His keen observations show us the necessity of reflection. In this mirror, we learn that everything and anything that we pay attention to has the capability to hold deep meaningful lessons for us and our lives. Robles makes us feel a range of…

This book is a vessel/holding liquid for thirsty desirers/in the empty spiral of the universe/where detail is opinion/one moment is all it takes to answer/when the body calls. This book is just one answer in a life of calling. The storyteller lives inside the breath of home. Whatever home is chosen, whatever breath is owned.…

A collection of biographical stories and poems about fascinating people in history whose real dreams made a real difference. Developed in performance, these stories bring old tales to life for contemporary readers in a way that is both entertaining and informative.

CREDITS– CO-HOSTS & PRODUCERS: Martha Cinader, Hernán Ramiro Rodriguez Sierra, Kim McMillon, Tony Robles, Jemyah Jones. FEATURED GUESTS: Marie Hernandez, Wendy P. Malliet and Sharon Cook of Tau Omega Charitable Trust Fund. POETRY: Martha Cinader, Tony Robles. MUSIC: Jay Rodriguez Sierra, Preston Fulwood, Genji Siraisi, Ehab Omar, Martha Cinader. SOUNDTRACK, MIXING, MASTERING, SOUND DESIGN: Hernán Ramiro Rodriguez Sierra. Executive Producer, Martha Cinader.

Do you want to be heard in the garden? Please consider contributing your audio content. We grow together when we nurture our network. Click here for more information.

The Intuitive Writing Podcast hosted by Elizabeth Perlman

This is an unedited transcript of s1e6 of the Intuitive Writing Podcast. ©2026 The Listen & Be Heard Network. all rights reserved.

00:00:00 – 00:00:27
Hello, and welcome to the Intuitive Writing Podcast, a production of the Intuitive Writing Project, a writing-based empowerment program for girls and gender-expansive youth. We are dedicated to giving young women a safe, encouraging, non-critical, unconditionally supportive space to write their story, speak their truth, and assert their voice both as writers and as leaders.

00:00:27 – 00:01:05
My name is Elizabeth, and I created this program 11 years ago because it’s what I wanted and needed when I was young, a supportive place to be truly seen and heard. That’s why we use the Amherst Writing Method, a radically nurturing and empowering writing methodology I wish everyone had learned in grade school. You can read more about the Amherst Method on their website and in Pat Schneider’s groundbreaking book, Writing Alone and with Others, but the basic principles and the ones that guide all our classes are that, number one, everyone is a writer with important stories to tell.

00:01:05 – 00:01:38
Two, everyone has their own unique voice, a voice that needs to be heard. And three, our voice will grow stronger and clearer the more it is supported and positively affirmed. The way that we do this is to repeat back and lift up words, lines, phrases, or concepts that really resonated for us. In our classes, everyone writes together, everyone shares their writing, and then everyone gives each other grounded, positive feedback.

00:01:38 – 00:02:13
Since we can’t violate the sanctity of our classes by recording what goes on there, these one-on-one conversations are designed to provide a little glimpse, a microcosm of what happens in the classroom. You can also read about our org and read the girls’ words as they were published on our blog, The Intuitive Voice, with the links below. If you enjoy listening to one young reader read their words and talk about it, imagine how powerful it is when six young writers are reading their words and giving each other positive, affirming feedback.

00:02:13 – 00:02:48
It’s pretty life-changing and there’s a lot more I could say about it, but I’ll let these writers speak for themselves. On behalf of all the writers at The Intuitive Writing Project, I want to thank you in advance for supporting the stories of young women. Making the time to be present and really listen to girls, listen to the wisdom, insight, and brilliance of each girl is how we change the world. Today, I am so excited and honored to be interviewing one of our longtime writers, Maya Pechsolt.

00:02:48 – 00:03:21
They are going to be reading an incredible piece, a creative nonfiction piece. And I want to start by having Maya introduce themselves, if you would give your name, your pronouns, your age, and maybe share a little anecdote about your first memory of writing. Hi, my name is Maya. I use she, her, and I’m 18 years old. And I would say my first memory of writing is I had recently learned about the wonderful thing known as TABs on Google Docs, and so I could make a grid for the first time ever.

00:03:21 – 00:03:52
And I wrote a Marvel fan fiction story called Dimensional. Within the first two paragraphs, me and my friends are walking down a suburban speak. We get picked up by a portal, and then we are thrown into the Marvel dimension. And the entire story is me and my friends becoming the children of different Marvel characters while being thrown from dimension to dimension with absolutely no rest between. We’re in the ventilation shafts of the helicarrier, then we’re on the Guardians of the Galaxy ship, which I forget the name of, and all that jazz.

00:03:52 – 00:04:20
That is my first story. That’s amazing. Did you finish it? God, no. I moved away. You know what I mainly remember is that in one of, because I used the Google TABs to make grids for character sheets. And I specifically remembered that I gave myself knitted arm warmers as a character thing. I wanted to be like jazzy. I wore like jeans and a t-shirt and the knitted arm warmers. And I don’t think I had a beanie, but I imagine I swept my hair in some direction in the story.

00:04:20 – 00:04:48
I had a small, at the time I had a sort of bowl cut, but not bowl cut because it was colored, sort of thing going on. So I thought I looked incredibly good. Awesome. And do you still have it? Do you know if it’s- No, it was on a different Google account that was attached to my school. Oh. I made my friend download a PDF of it, but I don’t know where that is. Oh, maybe someday you can revisit it and update it.

00:04:48 – 00:05:15
That’s amazing. I never want to look on those words again. They are in the history of my mind around the same time that I used to dance around the house in a neon pink printed Jaguar shirt. That is where that memory sits besides things I’m not touching with a 40 foot pole. Fair enough. Fair enough. Okay, well, that is an amazing anecdote. You have been writing with the Intuitive Writing Project, how many years has it been now?

00:05:15 – 00:05:46
I think about four years. I’ve been doing it since I came to California. My mom had just learned about my fan fiction because I heard an anecdote about it, and then she looked around for writing creative writing opportunities in the area and she found it. Your mom is so smart. Good job. Good job. I’m going to foster this because it will keep her entertained. And has it ever? You have a prolific, I mean, I feel like we could have several books published of just your writing.

00:05:46 – 00:06:14
So it’s hard to only pick one piece, but today we’re going to control ourselves. I’m going to control myself and just talk about one of your pieces. I would love for you to read your piece to give maturity words and it’s so beautiful. Take your time and read it slowly. Fun fact about that one. I didn’t write the title. I gave that fully to my teacher. I said I don’t have a title for it and she ran with that.

00:06:14 – 00:06:41
That’s awesome. All right, well, whenever you’re ready, go ahead. It has not been long since I have grown up. At the very least, it hasn’t felt like it. I’ve only grown up, I’ve only grown centimeters in height, but I’ve bounded miles in maturity and it’s not the maturity of hormones or responsibility or even emotionally. It’s the maturity in self-awareness. It’s knowing that I have hormones and analyzing them and dealing with the consequences.

00:06:41 – 00:07:11
It’s learning about my responsibilities and addressing my failures to meet them and feeling proud when I fulfill them. It’s the maturity of picking apart my emotions and feelings little by little, one by one, moment by moment and hour by hour and giving them words. It’s giving them a voice in my mind to speak to their contentment, to feel. More often than not, this maturity I’ve recently grown into as the last few years of having it has felt like a quick breeze that blew me over, but I barely felt in the moment has come with two feelings, the feelings of melancholy and the feeling of utter belonging.

00:07:11 – 00:07:43
The melancholy feels like the world is at a standstill, like the wind has stopped moving, the clouds have cleared, and the animals move because they feel about as unsettled as the scene truly is. The lack of wind becomes the straw that breaks the camel’s back, the sky all too bright as it reflects off pavements, and squirrels running across roofs and bugs moving in bushes become sounds of pure torture. They grate on my ears and send shivers down my arms until I shake. The only thing left to do is to bury myself in some sort of silence so that my constant stream of unsettling thoughts drown out the agony that is the feeling of being miserable.

00:07:43 – 00:08:08
The thoughts of morals, ethics, the future of humanity, my place behind a driving wheel, my place on a campus, and my place in my home, and I scream them in my head so I cannot hear the nothingness outside of it. Because waking up from those thoughts to an empty room filled with only me and my cherished reminders of loving memories is not a comfort. My weighted blanket doesn’t become a comfort to the torrent of feelings, simply an object. My pile of laundry isn’t a distraction, it’s a permanent feature.

00:08:08 – 00:08:34
My silence is not a voluntary moment to breathe, it’s a cage I don’t know how to voice. Melancholy like this is solved only with a touch, a mother’s hug, a friend’s cuddle, a father’s secret handshake. Melancholy feels like a rock is on a string tied around my heart, pulling it down and weighing it into my stomach. The sense of utter belonging feels like rain now. It feels like watching the water run down the window of a car from the passenger seat.

00:08:34 – 00:09:01
It feels like the sound of constant drops beating on the asphalt roof. It feels like the smell of wet concrete, gravel, and grass. It feels like the taste of contentment after a cool glass of water. It’s the sense of belonging and reassurance and affirmation that I long for constantly. To give words to such a feeling is euphoria. It’s the realization of a safe space, of a safe feeling I have in my life. It’s the feeling of falling asleep with nothing burdening on the horizon, with nothing to do the next day.

00:09:01 – 00:09:29
It’s falling asleep having hugged your parents goodnight. It’s falling asleep with a friend next to you. It’s falling asleep after a long and hot shower. It’s waking up and it takes hours before you leave your bed. It’s waking up to the room being bathed in a soft orange glow and watching as it fades to blue. It’s waking up with a plan you know you can accomplish, with exciting and fun things to do, and with people you’re excited to see and to greet and activities to do. Falling feels like weightlessness has taken over my bones and it sinks me into wherever I may be at the moment.

00:09:29 – 00:10:00
To give these feelings words is like breathing on a mountain top, overlooking the ocean. The faint scent of salt is barely there, barely a thing you take note of. But the wind beats your face and reminds you why you enjoy simply being. The wind whips your hair in every direction and when you move your sunglasses away from your eyes, the bright tones of water, sun, and green don’t assault them. Only welcome them. You feel a humble smile split in your face and it only feels right as you take a breath through your nose and mouth so you can feel the cold wind on your tongue and in your lungs.

00:10:00 – 00:10:28
That is the feeling of maturity. It’s not always going to be dark, sad, and depressing nights filled to the brim with insomnia, but it’s not always going to be driving your own car to your own destination, buying your own groceries, or loving your own way. It’s a mix of so many things I couldn’t list them all at once, but it will bring bliss and tears and it will fill you until you overflow and let it all out over and over again. I think I have grown and become mature over the years, but I do love and hate it so much. It’s a constant reminder of the inevitable and ominous future.

00:10:28 – 00:10:59
It’s a constant relief and clarity of thoughts that will follow you until your dying days. It has been my honor and my burden to be mature, but it is my favorite thing to do to give it words. Language is the most mature and complex concept I know, and it is my pleasure to use it. That is absolutely magnificent. It’s almost impossible to just pick out a few lines that I like the best because every single line is incredible, but I’m going to try.

00:10:59 – 00:11:42
What was that? I’ll give you my favorite, which is language is the most complex concept I know. I have often attested to that, and I think it is one of the reasons I enjoy writing and it’s why I enjoy reading and I enjoy doing stuff because figuring out the complexities behind little idiosyncrasies is the most fascinating thing to do. You’re so right. I agree with you. I feel like when you can take, and that’s what this piece does so brilliantly, is the writer takes the enormity of all that is really life growing up, maturity, consciousness, self-awareness, and finds a way to articulate both the positive or both the joyful and the painful.

00:11:42 – 00:12:07
So powerfully done. I love the line, it’s a maturity in self-awareness, which this whole piece is just like, you could also just call it self-awareness because it’s absolutely that. And by the way, there are a lot of people who don’t have self-awareness who are much older than this writer. So it’s an amazing capacity to be, to feel everything and to recognize it and know how to articulate it. That’s incredible.

00:12:07 – 00:12:37
So many powerful lines. I love that there was throughout the piece, the writer shifted the repetition of different words to make different points, like the repetition of maturity and then the repetition of it feels like, and the repetition of it’s waking up. There’s a couple others as well. And it really, it’s sort of like the words are a film camera and you know how when you’re watching a movie, you have to look at whatever the director has decided you have to look at.

00:12:37 – 00:13:02
And that’s what I felt like this was almost cinematic and the writer was moving the camera with their words and having us look at different things. I don’t know how you would film this, but it felt like it was cinematic. I love the description of, well, it’s actually the paradox of filling both melancholy, which is an incredible word, melancholy is an incredible word and not used enough.

00:13:02 – 00:13:43
So I love that the writer used it a lot in this piece. It’s got a torrential history. Torrid, I think that might be the word. Does it? What is its history? Melancholy comes from some of the old sort of ideas. It used to be considered a sickness, the feeling of melancholy, like a treatable disease of some sort. Did you know nostalgia was also considered a disease? Oh my God, no, I didn’t. So quite a few things that were really just feeling so intense that they physically, that they have physical reminders upon your body is sort of categorized understandably as a disease, but melancholy, you could associate it with miasma and those things that we’re considering in the old days of like those four things of phlegm, which is a word.

00:13:43 – 00:14:25
Oh, that’s right, phlegm. That was like the four humors, phlegm, the four humors, yes, phlegm is such a weird word and very hard to spell. It’s the main reason I hate it. That’s so interesting about melancholy. It’s just like a whole story into itself because it’s such a long word, but the combination of melancholy and utter belonging, I feel like this captures the paradox of all life, that it’s both joy and pain, the description of melancholy that feels like the world is at a standstill, like wind has stopped moving and the clouds have cleared.

00:14:25 – 00:15:07
And then all these specific things like the sky all too bright as it reflects off pavements and squirrels running across roofs and bugs moving and bushes become sounds of pure torture, the specificity of all these things and how they’re like grinding against the ears. So interesting. It’s sort of, I think one of the things that I think even my dad is attested to when I was saying this to us earlier in preparation for this, is that one of the things about writing that can sometimes make a good writing, it’s just the ability to describe what you have around you, because my dad also, fun fact, tried to write fan fiction, Star Trek fan fiction when he was much younger.

00:15:07 – 00:15:36
And he has those pages printed out somewhere in my grandmother’s house. I will find them, I promise. But something he talked about is that he would describe things in the most, you can almost say report-like way, and that can be a style if you want it to be. But if you’re trying to write certain, if you’re just trying to start off the back and your first idea is like, I want to describe what this scene feels like to you want to describe enough that someone could be there in it, is to describe every little detail of what you hear.

00:15:36 – 00:16:01
As like an exercise, you’re walking down a street and it’s like a wharf. It’s like a dock somewhere. You don’t have to just describe it like, oh, there’s the fishmonger’s building, here’s the pearl shop, here’s the thing. Maybe talk about the sort of like the conversation you can hear inside the pearl shop or like the sounds of fishes being gutted or something like that. So, and also just to take by what you would describe what you actually hear, because there are squirrels that run across my roof constantly.

00:16:01 – 00:16:30
I swear they are dive bombing and attacking the unicorns. That’s amazing. And they run across. No, and you really captured that and you’re so right. Sensory details are the best. I think that’s why this goes cinematic to me, because there are these visual details that it’s like I can see it. The writer can see it because of the way you describe it. Even this list, which is such a relatable list, it’s both personal and universally relatable.

00:16:30 – 00:17:08
The thoughts of morals, ethics, the future of humanity, my place behind a driving wheel, my place on a campus, my place in my home. And I scream them in my head so I cannot hear the nothingness outside of it. Like, I love the like the macrocosmic thoughts like morals, ethics, and then like the like the everyday thoughts like this is kept me quite a few. Like it helps. It somehow helped me go to sleep. I would text my friend at like 1230 a.m., some form of existential crisis on the nature of humanity and whether or not we are doomed or if the world is looking through the opposite of whatever rose colored glasses are and like continuing going.

00:17:08 – 00:17:49
And then I’d fall asleep and I wake up and I’d be like, man, a weird night. Got to get to work. Oh, weird night. Yeah. Yeah, I also love speaking of crises at nighttime. That line, my weighted blanket doesn’t become a comfort to the torrent of feeling simply an object. I’ve had that very exact. I thought for some reason, if I got a weighted blanket, I’d sleep better. And it does not override one’s brain, which one I think are more sort of they are helpful when they become ubiquitous in that sense is sort of when they become the constant because I it’s mainly for a way because I like the weight on me when I sleep of like quilts, but that gets way too hot. It’s California.

00:17:49 – 00:18:15
So a blanket solves that by giving me the weight I want without the heat. Yes. Oh, that’s a good pitch for weighted blankets, actually. Yeah, I guess it’s for right. All right. That’s going to be our first sponsor weighted blanket. And then I love the line. I mean, I really relate to it this and I feel like the writer captures how this feels to feel melancholy in this line.

00:18:15 – 00:18:42
Melancholy feels like a rock is tied on a string around your heart, pulling it down and weighing it into my stomach. It’s totally how it feels. Again, sensory details. The way I describe the string, because sometimes I think it does feel so tight as though there is a string and you’re feeling it being wrapped and pulled on those points specifically. And whether and wherever you lay, it seems to follow down your spine somewhere. It just weighs you there.

00:18:42 – 00:19:08
And I think if there’s ways to like dive into feeling that optionally, you can read very sad stories and you can go through and read stories that will apply to your sadness, watch that movie and diving into those feelings can almost be pleasant in a sense, feeling that weight and being reminded that you do feel sad and it’s OK to feel sad, but doing it without the choice to turn it off when it’s that time is the worst feeling in the world.

00:19:09 – 00:19:37
No, that is true. That is true. I love I think the reason I also love melancholy is just what you said. Sometimes it actually feels good to feel melancholy. It’s just this heavy sadness that’s weirdly calming. It’s just like you’re like sinking down, down, down. I don’t know. I love my my absolute icon read from overly sarcastic productions put this very well in their trope talk, which I suggest everybody watch if they want to be a writer.

00:19:38 – 00:20:05
It can help contextualize quite a lot of things. You won’t notice you do and it makes you think about your writing. So it’ll make you. And the more you think about your writing, the better you become a writer. But they put it well in the doomed heroes story in their trip talk on doomed heroes is sort of that there’s a catharsis in choosing to feel sad and choosing to become invested in the story and in choosing to go. Like, why do you think people like Romeo and Juliet? Tell us in the very beginning, two star cross lovers take their lives.

00:20:05 – 00:20:38
You know how horribly this is going to end. But it’s that journey of going along with them. It’s finding that story. That’s the enjoyable part. And so I think that’s that is brilliant. OK, go back to that real quick. You said it’s called trope talk. Who is it by? By Overly Sarcastic Productions and Overly Sarcastic Productions. If anybody ever joins a class with either me or Sol in the Intuitive writer product, they will know we love overly sarcastic productions to hell and back.

00:20:38 – 00:21:17
There is time for if we were inspired by a specific myth video or history video. My friend Sol then took the history and I took the myth ones. It’s one of the reasons we became such good friends as we would talk after class about Marvel and OSP. Generally, I would highly suggest any of them, because the way they choose to contextualize things and choose to take in a whole picture and dive deep down into the topics, just being exposing yourself to that kind of thought and that sort of direction, a way of thinking influences your own in a sense, you can learn in a sense, and it helps you go on forward and understand things with, I’d say, a more open mind in some sense.

00:21:17 – 00:21:47
Like a good example is that me and Sol went down thanks to also another group that I think if you like OSP, you’ll less like these guys, but Sabaton, which are historical rock group. And they have a song about Fritz Haber. And if you don’t know who Fritz Haber is, he is the inventor of nitrogen infused soil, which has basically allowed our food production to boom, to feed this thing. He is also the inventor of chemical weapons. Whoa, there’s a very good, good line in the song about mass or morality alone.

00:21:47 – 00:22:18
It’s like, what are you doing? And after reviewing sort of how OSP went at history and how we wanted to approach history in our own writing, we realized the story doesn’t have to be he is this, but he also did this. It’s that he did this and this. People are complex sort of beings. Yes, they’re hard to get down on paper. They’re hard to understand in hindsight with only the minimal records they lead, because as every anthropologist will tell you, people always lose less of a footprint than you want them to.

00:22:19 – 00:22:44
And it’s sort of understanding those. Concepts I’m struggling for words at the end here that made me and Sol better writers to adjust to history. Oh, my God. I mean, you have the intellect of somebody who’s a thousand years old, honestly, which is why I think you’re so good with history. I love what you just said, that people are complex beings. And that is what makes a great writer to understand that.

00:22:44 – 00:23:22
And this piece also coming back to the piece. This piece captures the complexity of life, that we can be both sad and grateful and angry and happy. Like we feel all things. And we also we’re neither good nor evil. We’re just a mix of all kinds of complicated, contradictory aspects. I will say this, that I have learned from my anthropology and probably what I wanted to put out there. I realized earlier when we had been prepping for this, I had said what I would want to put out there was Abraham Lincoln’s quote that has helped me through many dark times and even good times and even helped me save our good times is that I think it’s Abraham Lincoln’s quote, this too shall pass.

00:23:22 – 00:23:51
Some sense this feeling shall someday pass. And maybe just having that little light on the end is what gave me the push to go through it. But more than that, I think it’s what I’ve learned from anthropology and how that has helped me. Because if you don’t know, I’m a college student and I’m taking anthropology classes. And what anthropology has taught me, and this is my own idea of it, is that the difference between a human and an animal is that an animal has behavior and a human has culture. And there’s a difference between learned behavior and a culture.

00:23:52 – 00:24:21
A monkey may learn how to play Scrabble or anything else because you can teach it that. But it’s a behavior it’s developed because I think the human is going to develop a culture around playing Scrabble every Friday night, specifically for no other reason other than argue with their family members. So is what they’re going to get to over which Webster’s dictionary they’re going to use. And so I find that what has helped me understand that there can’t always be a good and right and everything.

00:24:21 – 00:24:49
There’s not always going to be that satisfied. They are bad. They were good. Sort of answer is that humans are complicated, that are relative to culture and culture has changed and is relative to every individual person in that sense. Well, that’s interesting. Right. And culture, I always think of the fact the word culture has cult in it. So there’s a cultist cultish aspect to how we’re trained, depending on the time we’re living in.

00:24:49 – 00:25:16
The cult, the word cult has gotten some four connotations over the area from the age of I’m going to just call 70s. It’s a beauty to say is not many learn about it. But in a way, the 70s that attached quite a 60s, 70s America attached quite a few cults that had some major crashes, like some rape, some underage shit. A lot of some stuff went down there that wasn’t for sure.

00:25:16 – 00:25:42
Things that weren’t great that went down those cults. And that’s made cult sound like a bad thing. It really just it really just meant specialized worship. Like you refer to like the cult of Aphrodite. And no one was going to say like, oh, yeah, I gave us of the people and be like, all right, that’s a cult. We can’t worship Aphrodite anymore. Right. That’s true. The cult of that’s right. It was originally a positive word.

00:25:42 – 00:26:14
You’re right. It was just a neutral world. It just meant like it just meant this is a group of worship. That’s it’s a subset in a larger religion almost. Oh, my God, you’re so brilliant. I feel like I honestly could talk to you for 500 years and we’d never run out of things to talk about. You know, I once had a fantasy where I was if you remember this episode of West Wing, where a guy didn’t want to build a pass because he wanted more funding for like autism, for like his autistic grandson.

00:26:14 – 00:26:40
And he talked for like 12 hours on stage. And as long as he kept talking, no matter what he talked about, he went to like card rules. I was like, I could do that. Oh, my God, I’ve got shite. That you that would be one of your superpowers. You could totally do it. And it would be interesting. My dad is my my dad’s villain name is Earworm because he has like 15000 songs he can put on at name them anything.

00:26:40 – 00:27:06
And I was chatterbox. That is an amazing. You’d be good for a filibuster. Also, I bring you out and just talk and it would be super interesting. I just need to record you walking around and talking all the time. You’re so interesting. OK, so then going on on this piece. I love the shift it goes from. It’s very gentle shift, like rain falling from the melancholy to the belonging. And it actually has that line.

00:27:06 – 00:27:32
The sense of utter belonging feels like rain. Yeah, this is why it feels so visual. It feels like the smell of wet concrete, gravel and grass. The contentment after a cool glass of water. It’s the realization of safe space, a safe feeling I have in my life. And I really love this line. This is the best feeling, falling asleep with nothing burdening on the horizon, with nothing to do the next day.

00:27:32 – 00:28:03
Oh, I’m sorry. Go ahead. It is just real life things that helped me. I attached myself because I moved around a lot because my dad’s job. And so I attached myself to certain things. And what was always a constant until I got here, of all places, was rain. And so the feeling that I could sort of attest to brain used to like lull me to sleep because I lived in like Washington State for a while and stuff like that. And falling asleep, especially to rain, was like one of the most relaxing points of my day at any time.

00:28:04 – 00:28:29
Mm hmm. I’ve learned from the many accidental crises I’ve had before I fall asleep that imagine you. It’s the weekend. You it’s a Friday. You’ve done all the homework you might need. You might need before you go before the weekend. So you have a free weekend ahead of you. It’s like the middle semester. There’s no big projects due midterms. Midterms are at least three weeks off. Nothing else is about to happen.

00:28:29 – 00:28:54
And you fall asleep and you wake up the next day. And you’re like, I don’t even have to get out of fucking bed. There’s nothing. It’s the best feeling. Well, and then you you wrote this, it’s waking up and it takes hours before you leave your bed. I love the description of the room being bathed in a soft orange glow, watching as it fades to blue. My mom and her friends once made a joke about that.

00:28:54 – 00:29:19
I remember I came downstairs once. It was eleven fifty eight. And and and then like my mom’s friend George is like, wait, what time is it? What time is it? What time did you come downstairs? And I was like eleven like fifty eight because I checked. I checked my clock very regularly on my phone. And he was like, damn it. And then he turned to my mom and she was like, ha, because they apparently bet if I would come down before twelve or not. They had a bet.

00:29:20 – 00:29:50
Your dad just made it with two minutes to spare. That’s so funny. That’s exactly what I do. Any time I have a spare, I have a day with nothing on the end. I’m like, I can sleep forever. I wake up and I’m like, how do I have anything else to do? I don’t even need to sleep. And then I roll over and I’m like, here I come again. Here I come again. This piece feels so alive with like this line about the wind beats your face and reminds you why you enjoy simply being.

00:29:50 – 00:30:18
There’s so many it’s not just like the observed sensory visual details, but it’s the feeling, the weightlessness is taken over your bones like breathing in a mountaintop. That’s incredible. Those are describing two very like things that I felt here, because I wanted to sort of tie it back, not just also to because this in California, mainly thanks to my therapist, is where I realized what my maturity sort of meant, and it wasn’t going to fix all my problems.

00:30:18 – 00:30:44
It wasn’t going to make me suddenly be able to handle insults to my face better. But you know what? It was there. But two things that are two like memories that I have very strongly with my time here in California is one crossing the Golden Gate Bridge to Sausalito side. And you come out of that that little drive point where it lets you look over the bridge and all that stuff and standing there. And I remember I took off my sunglasses and I was surprised because my eyes are usually somewhat sensitive to the light that I took it off and I wasn’t blinded.

00:30:45 – 00:31:13
The water was still shining. It was still sunlight, the green, the breeze, everything was there. But it didn’t like hurt me to look out and take in all the colors, because that’s what I love about this for how they help my eyes. At the same time, it tones down some of the vibrancy that I miss when I have to go on drives. And then the other time is when we drove to the top of Mount Diablo and we looked out over there and it was like the same feeling. But it was that it was that chillness and the wind from either sea air or the map or the high altitude.

00:31:13 – 00:31:50
And it was just it made me realize why I enjoy simply being again, like why it’s not that I’ve ever not wanted to live, but sometimes I have to be like, man, this is frickin’ work. Yeah, but I guess and but just standing on top of Mount Diablo or being the other side of the Golden Gate Bridge and just letting it happen. I was like, this is why I’m here. That’s so brilliant. And that is such a profound insight that, yeah, a lot of the time they don’t tell you this in grade school, that a lot of your adult life is going to be work, just like grinding through things.

00:31:50 – 00:32:16
But then there are these moments, which is what you’ve captured so beautifully. And based on what you just said, I feel like the writer is really good at collecting feelings, which they summon back and reassemble stories. I wrote another piece like it where I was just trying to tread through what my earliest memories are because I got very inspired by a distractible another podcast, a distractible thing where they went over what was their first earliest memories. I was like, what is my first earliest memory?

00:32:16 – 00:32:45
And as far as I know, I think my first earliest memory is the feeling of wet grass between my toes. It’s not like actually like a memory memory or anything like that. I think it’s just a feeling that I have. And I can find pictures of that day because I was like, I was very much remembered. It was like cold, dewy morning. And my mom has pictures of it of me like walking around in my diaper out in the backyard and having to be blonde enough to blind the fucking sun.

00:32:45 – 00:33:11
Those are my earliest memories. My earliest memories often come from just one sense, like the sound of stuff working at my grandmother’s milk farm, the sight of her garden, the feeling of hugs from different people and sort of thing like that. My earliest memories, they come the smell of what was it, of malasadas. That is what I have because I grew up in Hawaii for a lot of my younger years. And there’s at the Punahou Fair, there’ll be malasadas.

00:33:11 – 00:33:39
And there’s always one present. And I think one of my earliest memories is the smell of those. Oh, and it sounds like you have vivid sensory memories. Really exceptional. That’s also like a tip if you wanted to start trying writing, try writing down a memory. I think it’s something that my grandpa or my grandfather on my mother’s side casually did, is that he would write down things. He wrote me once like a poem about different cakes for my birthday. But stuff like that, or it might not have been for my birthday.

00:33:40 – 00:34:08
I just have a poem from him about different cakes. I forgot. I forgot I have it. But at the same time, he has a slight autobiography. That he wrote himself, that is just writing down his memories and what he remembered that. And I looked like the tiny little anecdotes in it. I’m just like, I had a milkshake. It was great. Oh, I love it. He’s like, I’m less intolerant. I’m having these the rest of my life. I love that. I love that.

00:34:08 – 00:34:43
That’s the thing is that every memory is a story. And if you don’t write it down, people won’t know what’s in your memories. It’s so beautiful to have it on paper. OK, so that brings us to the last part of the piece, which is the most moving. It’s this very mature, very advanced. Again, many adults don’t even have this level of self-awareness that life is both joy and pain. It will bring, as I should quote the writer, it will bring bliss and tears and it will fill you until you overflow and let it all out over and over.

00:34:43 – 00:35:09
And then I love how the writer says, I love and hate it so much because it is it’s all things. It’s both. It’s everything. And you captured that. And then, of course, the fear of the future, the inevitable and ominous future, which we all are haunted by because humans can think of the future unlike animals. But my favorite line and I want you to read it again. It’s just the last two lines, if you would read.

00:35:09 – 00:35:39
It has been. It has been my honor and my burden to be mature, but it is my favorite thing to do to give it words. Language is the most mature and complex concept I know, and it is my pleasure to use it. And I think something again that OSP helped me with was just kind of tracking the different ways that language has come together over the years. And so I think like that maturity, it has a depth to it that is built upon your years and years of experience as you go forward.

00:35:41 – 00:36:13
It is quite literally the most complex thing, you know, like it’s like it’s like trying to watch Christianity branch apart into a model of things, but in reverse to make English, right? Of everything, just branching together to make all those things. And that’s kind of what makes it beautiful, because I could trace back the origin of the word glamour to an Icelandic saga. I could trace back the word nostalgia to the Greek term for homecoming.

00:36:13 – 00:36:41
I could. And there’s so many other little idiosyncrasies with it. And you can trace back parts of what made you mature to bits in your life. Like, what did that change? I think I what helped with my maturity is my journey to realizing that I was aromantic, asexual to the death of my bumpa and how and how that affected my family and me and reversal to talk with the different talks I’ve had with my dads and uncles about what their experiences in the military and how that’s put things in perspective.

00:36:41 – 00:37:06
I can trace my and my maturity back to those things. And I can also trace back to when I was really immature. I once stood between two vending machines and stared out because I had an argument with my friend at a party. And I just stared at people and laugh when they jerk back and fear because you don’t expect to look like you do vending machines and then just see cotton candy head in a freaking plaid shirt staring at you. Wait, you slipped between you were standing between two vending machines.

00:37:07 – 00:37:35
Yes, there were two vending machines. It was like the fall party in middle school or something. And I had an argument with my friend and I nearly convinced all my friends to essentially dump her as a friend. I undid that work when one of my other friends said, hey, dick move. And I was like, probably. And like went back. But either way, for the majority of that dance, I kind of sulked because it was it was just a cafeteria. It wasn’t like I could go anywhere to be silent until I found like the crack between the two vending machines.

00:37:35 – 00:38:03
And so I sulked between them and slowly got joy because people and they kind of casually look between it just because usually they’re like, damn, it’s going to be dirty in there, isn’t it? But then there’s a kid staring at you. I mean, such a funny image and such a creative choice, even though it’s a little diabolical, but very creative. Oh, I remember the worst part was when someone had ordered something already and it was like falling down and they looked over and they couldn’t like just walk away and wait for their stuff.

00:38:03 – 00:38:28
And they were kind of like, a couple of time, but then one of them, they kind of walked away. They came back and were like, you good? I’m like, yeah. I remember when one of the one on the one side of me started shaking and I like looked at it and then I got out and they were like trying to push the two together. They didn’t know I was in there. Oh, they were just like, these two were together. We had the time to move. It was like, hey, they’re like. They like jumped back. They were like, oh, my God.

00:38:28 – 00:38:59
Well, to your point, I think we were trying to say is that everything that’s in this is true for everyone. Everything that happens to us evolves us and matures us, including your experience of getting between the two vending machines. That was part of your growth. Yeah, you learn from that. It made you who you are. That’s what my new book cover is going to look like about common sense. It’s going to be me glowering in my in my I believe it was seventh grade outfit staring between two vending machines.

00:38:59 – 00:39:27
Well, it’s kind of because the lights were like put down low also as well. Just staring out there, glitter, cotton candy, hair, warm tones kind of look like a lumberjack like it’s a whole thing. That’s amazing. That’s a total look that you should keep that alive. OK, so now I wanted to get your advice to other writers about what do you do when I mean, you’re so eloquent and prolific.

00:39:27 – 00:39:53
I can’t even imagine that you ever don’t have something to write about. But I’m sure while you’re writing, sometimes you get stuck. How do you get unstuck and what advice would you give to other writers? Uh, for starters, never put yourself on a deadline. Don’t like force yourself to have a timeline. That’s because that’s going to do the opposite. Your brain is going to be offs in it. And basically to say, fuck you, not today. And other stuff like that. So I would definitely say.

00:39:53 – 00:40:19
I also don’t put yourself on deadline. I don’t give you some advice. My mom gave me, which is if you have a scene in mind that you really want to write, but your head saying, I got to write the intro to this first, throw that voice out the window. Defenestrate it. Like you got to just write that scene that you want to. Whatever you want to. You can reshuffle later. You can go back later. None of this is it’s not like set in stone the moment you type it.

00:40:19 – 00:40:55
If I did, it would be a weird if I did that with my writing, it would be a weird, massive red underlined words because I spell it with an extra B. You can go back and you can change things and you can write different parts of your stories at different times. And you can go back. You can do so much. It’s it’s flexible. It’s like community college. It’s up to you. It’s it’s your journey in writing this. And I would definitely say as well is. Find sort of a voice you want to write in, I would say, like for a while, I did John Mulaney’s voice for a while, just writing stuff like that.

00:40:55 – 00:41:21
Like I kind of thought. I then for a couple other times, I would my mother used to read to me. Quite a bit and as well. And I and that was a very common voice because she read like Little House on the Prairie to me. And that’s where that’s when I started moving to more like serious sort of. Serious words like that. And then my father would read to me Tintin comics, which are French comics, but in English or maybe it’s a French name.

00:41:21 – 00:41:49
I don’t know. I think he’s English, but it’s it’s a French comic. It’s a weird thing. But in comics, and he would do the different voices for that. And that allowed me to start doing my characters, their voices allowed me to do more characters in one story, like find familiar voices that you enjoy listening to, that you enjoy hearing tell a story and write in that voice for a while. And eventually you’re going to start making up your own voices. Like I, for some reason, do I’ve made up my own version of like Wanda and Pietro Maximus from the MCU’s accent.

00:41:49 – 00:42:14
I made that my own. I made it and I could like combine it with Jelena Belova’s accent in the films. And I like made my own accent for what I what I want, what I want to write, like creepy shit. OK, I love that. What is your OK? Just briefly describe the beginning creative process from when you get an idea. How do you like do you get ideas before you start writing?

00:42:14 – 00:42:45
When do you most get ideas? And then what is the process of starting to get it onto the page? I generally get inspired by random things throughout the day or random thoughts I have. So I’d say a good example is that it was just like a Christmas present for me, that someone had got me a book on Norse, not mythology, but folkloric creatures like a Huldra, which is I’ve I’ve added a weird rolling R to that Huldra.

00:42:45 – 00:43:10
I was like, I was like, Huldra, I learned French. You give me the rolling R’s. But a Huldra or a Huldra if you wanted to go male for it. And I was like, I can write a story about that. Or like this, there’s like this massive like whale sort of sea serpent creature that crawls out of the water and other things like that, or like this grim lady who hides in mind. And it was just supposed to be like a little folkloric thing, because like I was really into mythology and stuff like that.

00:43:10 – 00:43:48
But that book became my inspiration. And then I delved into this weird story where I made like a centuries old thing. I include this Russian guy that I learned about like random years ago, that like Kostya and other things like that. And then I took inspiration. Also, so they never be afraid to take inspiration from already living media. It doesn’t it’s don’t rip it off, but like, don’t be afraid to completely just take inspiration. If you ever watch Catalia, I imagine Prussia, the country character Prussia as like a ghost coming into the story and stuff like that, he’d like died in the Battle of the Eyes of the 1812, also taken from a Catalia episode.

00:43:48 – 00:44:14
And I like molded this all together to make a story over time. And then when I had like a pretty cool couple scenes in my head, I started blotting it down in like bullet points on a on a thing. And occasionally I would go on. Now, the way I do my creative process is I have an idea that’s inspired for some random thing, like for Common Now, a history episode of something Souls told me, my friend. I will then write down in bullet points sort of the ideas for that story where it goes. And then I go under each bullet point.

00:44:14 – 00:44:39
I don’t like writing it in order to go under the bullet point, whatever that bullet point has in longer form terms. And then I will paste it all together and then go through rereading it and resetting it and maybe changing a couple of things. And then I have soul make sure I did my grammar correctly. I have things like that to like it. They are impressed with my ability to switch tenses between sentences. That’s amazing. So you do actually map your stories out in advance.

00:44:39 – 00:45:06
You have kind of a general structure. I didn’t always. It wasn’t the first thing I did. I kind of I used to just sort of run with an idea and I kept like the mapping out within my head. I had like maybe an idea of two steps ahead. Yeah, but now, because I’m incredibly fond of the idea of foreshadowing and reiteration, I like to map it all out so I can revisit older things that I said earlier. Right. Then you can be the omniscient narrator. You know, things that we don’t know. I love that.

00:45:06 – 00:45:35
Yes. Instead of being surprised by my own story. I was like, oh, my gosh, Jesus. Oh, my goodness. I feel like I just want to say world. This is Maya. You’re going to be hearing from her a lot more in the future. I feel like you’re going to be very famous in the years to come. And I’m really excited that we managed to book you on our tiny little podcast. My goal is to say something on a show that’s well known enough to become somewhat of a meme.

00:45:35 – 00:46:02
Oh, please. Would you like to say something to start your own meme? You’re welcome to it. No, I have a visual. Once I become famous enough in my face is actually out there. Gosh, this I sound like I know how I know how I said I’d like had a humble smile over my face. I feel like I’m doing that when I’m famous. Well, I say I say you have I set you up. It’s my foot. Yeah, but I have very funny pictures because during the pandemic, I was in a foods class.

00:46:02 – 00:46:42
So we had to like do cooking at home and stuff like that. And the way that we had to do that was take pictures of our food or record it. And there’s some screenshots of me where I slowly go more and more confused and concerned from like because of what was happening in the cooking thing. And I have those and I texted them in a funny bubble. And so there’s like a meme format now that I will someday release to the Internet where I just get slightly more concerned and confused. We’re just like. Oh, just overall, it’s funny, it’s also what me and my dad called prison haircuts during the during the pandemic because they go to a hairdresser, so we went outside on the patio on the one eye and I had a buzz cut like shortness.

00:46:42 – 00:47:11
If any of you know Tintin comics, I looked like Tintin. I know it’s grown out so fast, though it’s amazing how it’s so long. OK, so I do whether or not becomes a meme. I feel like I want to give you a chance to give like one line of advice or wisdom to the world for now. I mean, you’re going to continue to illuminate us with your wisdom. And I can’t wait to read all of your many, many, many, many books that are going to come out.

00:47:11 – 00:47:37
But one little bit of wisdom for us. I will reiterate the earlier one. This too shall pass. And that doesn’t mean you don’t have to do work to get out of something. It doesn’t mean you don’t have to work to get over like a relationship or work to make the world a better place. But know that this too shall pass. It’s not going to always be like this, whether because you work to get out of it or because literally it cannot rain forever.

00:47:38 – 00:48:05
Well, there will be some break in it and there’s going to be some joy and let yourself feel those in the moment savor because even doing what lasts forever, savor that bit and know that sadness isn’t going to be forever. That’s beautiful. Actually, it can not rain forever. And most than everything I’ve just said. No, that was so lovely. You’re amazing. You are so brilliant and so interesting.

00:48:06 – 00:48:31
Maya, thank you for your time and your brilliance and for reading your words and sharing your thoughts. It has been truly an honor and a joy to have this conversation. And I am super happy to be here. If I was going to be on a podcast, this is like a dream come true. Please keep in as many tangents as you possibly can. And don’t forget, calling out the editor is a way of breaking the fourth wall.

00:48:31 – 00:48:42
And it’s and it’s its own sort of. Oh, that’s great. That’s great. This is going to be a long podcast. It’s great. Yeah, it’s going to be a bit of an episode.

To Give Maturity Words with Maya Petzoldt 

For our sixth podcast, listen to 18-year-old Maya Petzoldt read and discuss her brilliant writing, “To Give Maturity Words,” in conversation with TIWP founder, Elizabeth Perlman. Note: this conversation includes some “salty language” and may not be suitable for young children. 

You can read Maya’s words on our blog, The Intuitive Voice:
https://intuitivevoice.org/2023/01/27/to-give-maturity-words/ 

Just for kicks, you can also explore the Youtube channel Maya talks about, Trope Talks on Overly Sarcastic Productions: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCodbH5mUeF-m_BsNueRDjcw 

To learn more about The Intuitive Writing Project, visit us at:
https://www.intuitivewritingproject.com/ 

Thank you for your time and presence, supporting the voices of teenage girls! 

Elizabeth has a BA in Media Arts and a Masters in Transformative Arts, the study of creative expression for healing, connection, and growth. She is also a certified Group Leader in The Amherst Writing Method. Before launching TIWP in 2013, Elizabeth worked for over a decade as a graphic designer and art director in the advertising industry.

Word Magic: The Power of Writing to Reframe Your Story & Reclaim Your Intuition by Elizabeth Perlman is a self-help book that uses writing as a tool for self-discovery, healing, and empowerment, drawing from her “Intuitive Writing Project” for women and girls. It offers practical guidance and over 150 writing prompts to help readers trust themselves, reframe negative narratives, and find their inner wisdom through…

This compilation of 27 poems was written over the course of 25 years, from 1998 to 2023. (The title is reflects the author’s extreme delay in sharing her work—and yes, that is a unicorn finger puppet, taking time to smell the azealas!) The main theme of every poem is self-empowerment: remembering who we really are and reclaiming our innocence, our freedom and our joy. A…

CREDITS– HOST & PRODUCER: Elizabeth Perlman. FEATURED GUEST: Maya Petzoldt. Hosted by Listen & Be Heard Network.

From Berkeley’s powwow to Tau Omega’s community work in Harlem, with original poetry and live music from the Audio Garden.

This week in the Audio Garden, Martha Cinader and Jay Rodriguez Sierra bring together community reporting, poetry, and music that explore how we listen, preserve our stories, and support the next generation.

Kim McMillon speaks with Marie Hernandez, a member of the Hoopa Valley Tribe and coordinator of Berkeley’s Indigenous Peoples Day Powwow, about truth-telling, ancestral connections, and welcoming people of all backgrounds into a gathering rooted in culture, dance, and community.

In Harlem, Jemyah Jones speaks with Wendy P. Malliet and Sharon Cook of Tau Omega Charitable Trust Fund about scholarships, college readiness, and the Making It Through program, which encourages young people to recognize mental health concerns and seek support.

Throughout the hour, original poetry and live musical improvisation connect these conversations with reflections on identity, visibility, and collective responsibility. The episode also includes young musicians’ thoughts on listening and being heard, a poetic tribute to Nina Simone, and a preview of an upcoming Listen & Be Heard gathering in Brooklyn.

This is an unedited transcript of season 4, episode 30 of The Listen & Be Heard Hour. Automated transcription may contain errors in names, wording, and speaker identification.

00:00:20:11 – 00:00:29:04
Speaker 1
Listen as the sound enters my inner ear and vibrates through my inner plane, my biosphere.

00:00:29:06 – 00:00:33:26
Speaker 2
Part of me learning to be a better listener of others is learning to listen to myself.

00:00:33:27 – 00:00:44:04
Speaker 3
When we are listen to, truly listen to. You know you can feel when someone’s deeply listening and we feel heard, we are healed in that moment.

00:00:44:06 – 00:00:51:15
Speaker 4
Listen and be heard. Even if your voice shakes without knowing it, you may be saving a stranger.

00:00:51:17 – 00:00:55:05
Speaker 1
Listening to be heard is. I guess, part of why.

00:00:55:05 – 00:01:19:21
Speaker 5
I want to connect with you for this. Soon as you said that it like stuck quarter on my soul. Welcome to the Audio Garden where we cultivate our collective wisdom, nurture creativity, and spread love. My name is Martha, Senator, and this is. Listen and be heard.

00:01:19:23 – 00:01:25:00
Speaker 6
Hey, welcome back to the Audio Garden.

00:01:25:03 – 00:01:56:07
Speaker 6
It’s the pleasure being here with you. There’s a lot to share. Kim McMillan at the Audio Garden. We have so many wonderful things as well as new recordings with John Mayer. Jones speaks with one of the oldest sororities support Harlem. So again, you hear some poetry and new music, as always. And don’t forget you. Thank you. Martha. Senator Soundsystem culture and listening to be heard.

00:01:56:07 – 00:01:57:04
Speaker 6
Network.

00:01:57:06 – 00:01:59:22
Speaker 1
I’m artificially intelligent.

00:01:59:24 – 00:02:27:27
Speaker 7
I look in the mirror and think that what I see is me. And drink a bottle of water from a plastic cup and tell you what’s up and what’s down, and when to smile and when to frown. And I look in the mirror and think that what I want to see is me. And I drink a bottle of clean, fresh water in the side that I’m pretty and sticky sweet.

00:02:27:29 – 00:02:58:07
Speaker 7
And I drink some more water from a plastic cup because I’m so thirsty. And I look in the mirror and I think I see me. But I’m really a man with money and power. And I am the mirror that lies and pretends to be wise, spitting out platitudes with attitudes and give me more water. I’m so bursty, so give it to me and let’s not talk about food sovereignty.

00:02:58:10 – 00:03:25:29
Speaker 7
Let’s look in the mirror and not see me. And who I am not is no concern of mine. I don’t have time for that. I look in the mirror and I want to see someone younger and more fun and nose to hide. Come say please to the mirror and believe the platitudes. Let go of any attitude that me might be we.

00:03:26:01 – 00:03:40:06
Speaker 7
And what I don’t see and what isn’t there is where I want to go. But I don’t know anything. But I’m really thirsty. And that’s what’s important to me.

00:03:40:09 – 00:04:27:13
Speaker 7
Welcome back to the. Audio Garden, my friends. Our sense of justice is is really deeply whether we want to believe it or not. And an inheritance and an inheritance of hope. You know, that’s a spiritual inheritance. I think that we have and we don’t always want to claim it. I want to compact it into something. I love this that you’re saying right now, though, that technology has taken us, and I really do spend time with the media arm of this discourse, the young ones that are really asking the question and and reopening up that opportunity to do, to speak out, you know, beyond the the doors of the courts, to bring it into a common

00:04:27:13 – 00:04:28:18
Speaker 7
language so that people.

00:04:28:23 – 00:04:46:28
Speaker 6
Coming right up at the garden gates, I believe it’s Kim McMillan interviewing Marie Hernandez for Indigenous Peoples Day from Berkeley, California. Check it out.

00:04:47:00 – 00:05:12:19
Speaker 8
I my name is Kim McMillan with listen and be heard. And I want to welcome the audience to this talk with this incredible human being. Marie Hernandez born in Oakland, California to and Michael Garcia. She is an enrolled member of the Hoopa Valley Tribe, serving on the Indigenous People Day Powwow Committee. She is this year’s powwow coordinator for 2026.

00:05:12:21 – 00:05:39:24
Speaker 8
She carries a masters in Indigenous People Law and currently works as an ice w, a manager at the American Indian Child Resource Center. Marie, I am just so happy to have you on the show. What you have to say is really important for people who don’t know what Indigenous Peoples Day Powwow is all about. What do you believe it means to the community?

00:05:39:24 – 00:05:45:03
Speaker 8
To me? I lived in Berkeley during that time. I thought it was very, very important.

00:05:45:04 – 00:06:04:12
Speaker 1
It is a very significant day. Thank you so much for the introduction. And, you know, growing up in the Bay area. We were taught about Columbus Day. We’re taught about how great he was, how he came here and discovered America. And every year at school we celebrated that day. And very little was always talked about the indigenous people and being Native American.

00:06:04:17 – 00:06:25:11
Speaker 1
It’s always been an ongoing theme that a lot of our stories were never told. And so as an adult, I really wanted to find out what were the things that happened in our history. And then when the Indigenous Peoples Day came to be to me, it really struck me as old. Finally, we have a day that recognizes us and sees this as not a positive day for indigenous people.

00:06:25:11 – 00:06:35:09
Speaker 1
It’s actually a day of a lot of suffering and untold history. I stand by this day because it’s actually a truth telling day of what happened 534 years ago.

00:06:35:10 – 00:06:50:05
Speaker 8
Can you also tell how Berkeley became involved? It really shows the commitment of Native American rights as well as the rights of people of color, period. Can you give us something about the history of how we came?

00:06:50:11 – 00:07:12:21
Speaker 1
Yes. The one thing I, I like to highlight is that it was both indigenous and non-Indigenous people that work together that made this happen. This was not just in the hands of indigenous people. We had a lot of allies during that time. You mentioned about the history. John Crow wrote this great book, and it does go through every detail about how that day came to be.

00:07:12:23 – 00:07:37:09
Speaker 1
It involved the UN, and a lot of people of City of Berkeley were the main players in those movements to get this day recognized and to get that information out. The city of Berkeley really stepped up and was a great pillar. And actually recognizing that day as the Indigenous Peoples Day. And it was the first time in all of U.S. history that a city changed that day to Indigenous Peoples Day to recognize that truth and recognize that history.

00:07:37:15 – 00:07:47:03
Speaker 1
So it’s very monumental. Even the mayor at that time was involved as well. That’s was the start of the proclamation. And we had then with the city of Berkeley to recognize this day as such.

00:07:47:06 – 00:08:05:12
Speaker 8
What you said, John Curl, you mentioned his name and he documented that. And he’s not Native American, but I’ve known him for about 30 years. He has a heart of gold. These issues meet a great deal to him. He went to Ecuador. People met from around the world. Yeah.

00:08:05:16 – 00:08:33:01
Speaker 1
It was very international. There’s indigenous people all over the world. That’s one of the things I learned in school is, you know, how many indigenous people are fighting still for their rights in their land and to live, live their ways. That was a great international connection of what indigenous people go through. Is another great highlight of this pow wow is that we don’t just talk about, you know, Native Americans in in Northern America, we talk about both northern and Southern American indigenous peoples.

00:08:33:01 – 00:08:55:19
Speaker 1
And that’s our connection, because when that vote came, both the North and South were affected very greatly. We share that history with each other. And in John’s book, they he explains about the connections, the eagle, which represents the Northern America and the condor represents the southern Americas and the connection that we have as a people. And again, yes, locally, you know, there’s indigenous people that love for the land.

00:08:55:19 – 00:09:03:06
Speaker 1
And that connection to culture is what keeps us together and what keeps us fighting, because that’s our bloodline that we’re connected to. Is the land the most?

00:09:03:13 – 00:09:33:01
Speaker 8
We’re asking the communities all around the Bay area and further, to please consider coming to this important day happening in Berkeley at Martin Luther King Junior Civic Center Park. And it’s going to be October 10th from 10 a.m. to 6 p.m.. And as I said, the entire community, it doesn’t matter what what your background is. This is a community event and it’s free to the public.

00:09:33:03 – 00:09:40:27
Speaker 8
Can you tell us something about this community event that might be helpful for the people who may this may be their first pow wow.

00:09:41:04 – 00:10:02:22
Speaker 1
Thank you so much for saying this. This is a community event. This is for everybody. Everyone should be able to connect in some way to this day. Everyone’s I feel as indigenous to somewhere. You have ancestral roots that connect you to a piece of land that connect you to a people. It’s important to know that you carry that with you, that your bloodline leads to somewhere.

00:10:02:24 – 00:10:29:05
Speaker 1
And even though it may not be to this land, that connection is still very much alive and we make it a very friendly event. Notice we want children very young, you know, to be there. We make it very accessible for our elders too. We have a special section that we have to make sure that elders get seating. Elders is another ancestral, excuse me, indigenous teaching that I learned that we, you know, children and ancestors are at almost the center of our circle, that we protect a lot.

00:10:29:09 – 00:10:52:11
Speaker 1
And if it is someone’s first pow wow. Yes it is. And if you’ve never been to one, this is probably the best one in the Bay area to go to. Not being biased, but yeah, I think it’s really great because it’s, you know, it’s outside, it’s out the park. It’s in the heart of Berkeley. You know, Berkeley has its own history when it comes to standing up for rights and standing up for for people of color.

00:10:52:16 – 00:11:15:24
Speaker 1
And so it’s just a great space to gather. There’s going to be great vendors there. I mean, someone everyone will find something that connects to them. You know, our community is again very focused on family friendly, you know, some activities for the kids. It’s alcohol and drug free. If you do have questions, we do encourage people to ask, you know, maybe you don’t know or if it’s appropriate to take a picture with somebody.

00:11:15:24 – 00:11:34:22
Speaker 1
They just ask, you know, it’s always good to just ask. And, you know, usually people are very open to talking about their culture. This is something that’s very dear and near to their heart, and would be more than happy to sit with someone and explain what this dance means. We have a great MC, we have a dual MC and a Powell coordinator.

00:11:34:28 – 00:11:59:13
Speaker 1
We’re very knowledgeable within the community for many, many years. So anybody from the committee staff or the head staff would be more, more than happy to answer any questions. We also encourage people to actually dance with us. We have an intertribal dance where people in regalia, even in street clothes, can come out and just feel feel the ground underneath them, hear the drums and be in that circle that connects us all.

00:11:59:13 – 00:12:23:18
Speaker 1
So. So you also encourage people to come and and just and enjoy themselves and enjoy the food, you know, the vendors, the atmosphere. Powells is one of our my favorite things to do. And it’s just a great place to gather when we’re we’re dancing. We’re we’re praying, you know, so and we’re connecting with the land. It’s just a really great place to be, both for indigenous and non-Indigenous community members.

00:12:23:21 – 00:13:05:07
Speaker 1
This year we have some really great companies and organizations. Art drums, some of them come from all over. They have some tribes from Seminole, Laguna, Pueblo, Ecuador, Southern Ute, Milwaukee, Cherokee, Choctaw, San Carlos, Apache, Mescalero Apache, intertribal organizations, STK and they have art jewelry. I think I mentioned drums, you know, clothing, medicines, you know, things from where their ancestral roots are.

00:13:05:10 – 00:13:29:10
Speaker 1
They bring those crafts. To 20, 26, which is, again, these are thousands and thousands of year old traditions and materials that, you know, that were passed down to all those times you’re actually actually actually seeing kind of history coming into today because these, this art and everything, these, these are all passed down from generation to generation. So you get to see that showcased in the vendor booths.

00:13:29:13 – 00:13:39:05
Speaker 8
Oh, and also I heard that if you are a musician like a drummer, you can bring your drum if you have an appropriate drum. Is that okay?

00:13:39:06 – 00:13:58:27
Speaker 1
In our fire, we mentioned we welcome all drums. If you do, we have our northern drum, which is that host drum is all nations. And then we have style which is a southern drum. And it’s a little bit slower beat than the northern drum. And then we also a lot of people use hand drum. So it’s just a single drum.

00:13:58:27 – 00:14:22:19
Speaker 1
Where did they go. And they can they can do hand drums. Usually drummers actually sit with them to drum if they’ve been in that circle before. And so depending on, you know, which style of drum and if the drum actually allows you to go and sit with them to drum, well, you know, we do welcome that. Make sure you register with the register table at the Powell if you want to do like a song or something.

00:14:22:21 – 00:14:40:21
Speaker 1
Yeah. Having those connection to those drummers to we always welcome you know drummers from all around you know from again the the eagle to the condor. You know, we want you know both even though they’re maybe made a different things or have different songs. We always do that as, as as well as dancing. Your drumming is just the heartbeat.

00:14:40:21 – 00:14:53:03
Speaker 1
The heartbeat is what connects all of us. It’s all of us have beating hearts. And so that drum is another thing that kind of just connects us all in its universal. You know, everyone has that beating heart so everyone can connect to that drum.

00:14:53:04 – 00:14:59:27
Speaker 8
I agree with that. I love the idea that people can take part in so many ways.

00:14:59:29 – 00:15:06:07
Speaker 9
This is listen and be heard. Radio wlbh.org.

00:15:06:10 – 00:15:29:17
Speaker 8
I want to make sure people know that there is a lot of food and that there are still activities for little kids. So maybe if you have like 5 or 6 or even a 15 year old who’s never been to a power or who actually has and enjoys it, please come. And can you give us a little bit about what type of things are going to be offered for young people?

00:15:29:19 – 00:15:54:15
Speaker 1
Yes. So the we mentioned the food. We have two great food vendors. One is tacos, which is the fry bread taco, which some people know about. If you haven’t tried one, you should absolutely try one. You can get a vegetarian style or one with lots of meat. You see, it’s great for all ages, even if for the younger ones.

00:15:54:15 – 00:16:17:21
Speaker 1
They like it with the strawberry and the honey. They like a little sweet too. So you can also get it that style as well. And then we have a Mexican, Las Cabanas food truck that’s also going to be there that has, you know, more of the southern flavors and Mexican, dishes for them. So again, you’re getting a little bit of the, the North and the South when it comes to food.

00:16:17:23 – 00:16:37:04
Speaker 1
But yeah, they’re really delicious food. And I do want to do a shout out to the farmers market who will also be there to because they’re a great partner with us every year. You know, we have to share that space with them and we’re they’re great partner, partner with us. They they help us with equipment and everything too.

00:16:37:04 – 00:16:45:29
Speaker 1
So I want to shout out the farmer’s market. So you do on some fresh vegetables and fruit. You know, to they have they have some really some really great produce there too.

00:16:46:01 – 00:17:16:00
Speaker 8
Excellent. So if you want to eat, just have fun. Whatever feels good to you. That’s legal. It’s it’s the place to be and it’s just a really strong staple. It’s been 34 years. So this is something that’s truly a part of Berkeley’s history. And I’m just as a member. Are you surprised that it’s become so much a part of the history of Berkeley?

00:17:16:03 – 00:17:43:16
Speaker 1
Not surprised, not surprised, given, you know, Berkeley’s history. And but it’s it’s good to still have their support after all these years that they still see us as very significant. And and because Berkeley is the first you know, they they wanted they want that history still told that we’re the first one to to to stand shoulder to shoulder with indigenous people and claim this day for them.

00:17:43:18 – 00:18:10:03
Speaker 1
I’m glad you mentioned about my work. I do at the American Indian Resource Centers because native people are urban. Native people are still suffering. They’re still struggling in this urban area. So having it in a major city to like Berkeley, where you have the university and all the, you know, all these things, there’s there’s still a space for indigenous people to still have a, have a safe space where we can we can gather, we can pray, we can, we can be with one another.

00:18:10:03 – 00:18:28:11
Speaker 1
We can be a community. We can be with the public, you know, to open for everyone to, to join us. I, I wanted to mention to you about the we had mentioned about little kids. We do have a tiny tot contest, and we invite all little kids five and under can come and join, and they go out there and they can just dance around.

00:18:28:12 – 00:18:31:24
Speaker 1
Everyone win. Everyone gets a prize afterwards, too, which is nice.

00:18:31:26 – 00:18:32:15
Speaker 8
I love.

00:18:32:16 – 00:18:56:28
Speaker 1
That indigenous people were always thinking of the next seven generations, and so we know that how important our children are and they’re the ones that are going to pass on, you know, these ways and these teachings. And so having having that those values, those indigenous values can definitely help us help people out. Now, I can I can go on and on about my social work and stuff about those kind of issues.

00:18:56:28 – 00:19:19:27
Speaker 1
But protecting children is so important now. And the city has given us a space where we can we can still, even 34 years, still have this day. And I hope to have it for another 34 something years. My son, who’s 13 now, but when I first started on committee, would actually chalk the Powell circle. And, and I want him to continue to be part of that, you know, into his adulthood.

00:19:19:28 – 00:19:24:21
Speaker 1
Because, again, having that connection to this day is so very important.

00:19:24:23 – 00:19:35:07
Speaker 8
And I, I thank you for being on listen and be heard and giving us this information. Now, if people want to get in touch with the committee, how can they get in contact with you?

00:19:35:09 – 00:19:59:24
Speaker 1
We do have a website. It’s IDP powwow.org which stands for Indigenous Peoples Day. Powell dot dot org. You can also call for leave a voice message and we’ll give you a call back. (510) 595-5520. We also have a peel box two which is on our website and on our flier if you do want to send letters or. But yeah, we.

00:19:59:25 – 00:20:00:25
Speaker 8
Donate sons.

00:20:01:00 – 00:20:18:22
Speaker 1
Yes, you can donate funds. We do have an Instagram page finally, which is nice. It’s only got two pictures on it, but that’s a that’s another work in progress to to get us more out in social media too. We are you know, asking for volunteers to. So yeah please call us email us if you’d like to come and volunteer.

00:20:18:24 – 00:20:40:17
Speaker 1
But yeah, we just encourage everyone to come out and just enjoy. Supposed to be a gorgeous day again, this is the of years of ancestral knowledge being brought to the city of Berkeley in 2026. And again, I feel everyone has a connection to some type of indigenous roots inside of them. And again, that drum that be the the food.

00:20:40:19 – 00:20:55:12
Speaker 1
I mean, everything about that day is just so welcoming. And again, we encourage everyone to come and participate, you know, and ask questions. Being able to show representation and be able to highlight ourselves is just another huge reason why I’m on this committee.

00:20:55:12 – 00:21:08:03
Speaker 8
And they are lucky that you are on the committee. And I thank you for being on listen and be heard. I learned so much just talking to you. Thank you very much. Take care.

00:21:08:10 – 00:21:36:00
Speaker 6
Thank you. Kim McMillan and Maria Hernandez. Wonderful. Hey, hey, hey. This isn’t to Miss Jones as she interviews Tau Omega. It’s the 14th oldest chapter in the region. We’ll just graduate chapter the train state area. Decades. Over a hundred years of legacy and focused on service in Harlem. Thank you for reaching out to these amazing women, these amazing sisters.

00:21:36:03 – 00:22:06:03
Speaker 6
We’ve done so much for our community in Harlem. So Towel Mega always refers to the town Mega chapter of the Alpha Kappa Alpha sorority incorporated as it’s called. They are the oldest graduate chapter of the sorority in New York metropolitan area, and has served the Harlem community since 1925. Amazing. So this is how we do it. And Jamia Jones learning about everything from mental health to scholarships.

00:22:06:05 – 00:22:30:04
Speaker 6
So thank you. This is what we do and listen and be heard. We support our community and we tell the stories of the people that need to be told. These women are heroes in our community in Harlem. Historically, there were engineering fraternity established in 1927 from the Tau Omega Sorority, which then merged to form Sigma Gamma to 1953.

00:22:30:05 – 00:22:35:29
Speaker 6
But anyway, just there’s a history there. So much to learn.

00:22:36:01 – 00:22:54:09
Speaker 10
Start off telling you a little about listen and be heard. We are new to Harlem. We’re Harlem based network, and we basically are platform for a multimedia. Been going to a lot of jazz in the Harlem area. I’m from Carolina, so I’ve been covering a lot of the things that I don’t usually see there. Basically, our platform is a space for people to promote free media.

00:22:54:11 – 00:23:01:23
Speaker 10
From my understanding, y’all, we’re at the Harlem Week Festival and you have a nonprofit. What’s a nonprofit called?

00:23:01:27 – 00:23:05:00
Speaker 11
It’s the Tall Nega Charitable Trust Fund, Incorporated.

00:23:05:01 – 00:23:08:17
Speaker 10
What does your organization bring to Harlem?

00:23:08:18 – 00:23:42:11
Speaker 11
So we bring a long history of scholarship, service and support. Organization was started in 1968 by the mega chapter of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, incorporated, which was the first chapter of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority Incorporated in New York. So since 1968, we were also one of the first chapters in the organization to form a 501 C three.

00:23:42:13 – 00:24:03:27
Speaker 11
Our initial mission was to provide scholarships to young people, as well as to support the community with other initiatives as well as helping. Well, at that time, they call it the poor and community based organizations. And since then, we have continued that mission in various with various programs and activities.

00:24:04:03 – 00:24:18:23
Speaker 10
That’s amazing. That’s a long history. Y’all hosted the college fair in August, and I was interested in knowing how you anticipate what the community needs. Like, how do you anticipate what events you throw for the community?

00:24:18:25 – 00:24:20:19
Speaker 11
Okay, so in August.

00:24:20:22 – 00:24:31:07
Speaker 1
When we were. Tabling during. Harlem Week, we were actually promoting the event. So the. College fair will take place at Columbia University on Saturday, October 10th from.

00:24:31:07 – 00:24:31:21
Speaker 11
12 to.

00:24:31:22 – 00:24:43:07
Speaker 1
4 p.m.. We will have 30 plus representatives, and we will also offer workshops and so health workshops, as well as how it’s readiness workshops.

00:24:43:10 – 00:24:49:08
Speaker 10
Is mental health and college readiness. What you usually focus on when it comes to hosting these events?

00:24:49:09 – 00:25:10:27
Speaker 11
So it depends on our audience. So say for Harlem Week it was a community event. So we were there promoting all of our programs, all of the programs of our nonprofit organizations, one of which is our mental health program, the Making It Through program, as well as we partner with the Mega chapter for the college fair. So we were promoting the college fair.

00:25:10:29 – 00:25:36:04
Speaker 11
We also have a family daycare program, so we were promoting that as well as we offer scholarships within the community. So different at different times of the year. We are in the community just letting them know the different things that we do, and those are the main things that we are doing right now at that time. So throughout the year, there are also other activities that we do in conjunction with Tom Mega chapter.

00:25:36:05 – 00:25:47:18
Speaker 11
So it depends upon what activities are going on. What would we be in the community promoting? But right now our emphasis is on our upcoming college fair.

00:25:47:22 – 00:25:51:27
Speaker 10
College fair is up and coming. Is there anything else that you have planned in the near future?

00:25:51:28 – 00:26:22:07
Speaker 11
In November? On November 15th, we are also collaborating with Tom Mega chapter to have a concert at a church of the Masters where our in-house quiet will be singing along with a Broadway star from The Lion King and Afternoon of Music. And that will be from 4 to 6 p.m.. That program will also feature some dancers, and it will also kick off our Giving Tuesday event.

00:26:22:15 – 00:27:00:07
Speaker 11
Other things that I mentioned that we do as a nonprofit, as we support community based organizations annually, we make contributions to about 6 or 7 organizations where we give them cash donations. We will be making those donations at least to 2 or 3 of our organizations that we support. So they’ll come. We’ll make the big check donations to them, and it will also kick off our ask about supporters to contribute to us for Giving Tuesday, which is an annual fundraising day for all nonprofits, which is December 1st.

00:27:00:09 – 00:27:01:24
Speaker 10
I think I’ve heard of Giving Tuesday.

00:27:01:25 – 00:27:05:24
Speaker 11
Yeah, most nonprofits have their annual fundraising events.

00:27:05:24 – 00:27:25:12
Speaker 10
I’m happy to meet you too today. Hopefully I can come to the nonprofit events like the college fair or maybe the concert. I’m just new to the area and I’m trying to see different organizations doing things in Harlem. I just went to do some community service at Harlem Grow. I want to learn more about them and how they’ve continued to develop as well.

00:27:25:12 – 00:27:34:01
Speaker 10
So I will probably reach out again for maybe a photo of some of the fliers that I can put in my right up to support and let people know about your events as well.

00:27:34:01 – 00:27:37:22
Speaker 11
So will you be sharing this information on your website?

00:27:37:23 – 00:27:38:22
Speaker 10
Yes, ma’am.

00:27:38:24 – 00:27:52:04
Speaker 11
So if you are interested in coming to any of our events, if you reach out and let us know, we will let you come as press. Thank you. Just reach out and let us know that you want to come and we will give you a press pass. Okay.

00:27:52:05 – 00:27:54:12
Speaker 10
Thank you so much, I appreciate that.

00:27:54:16 – 00:27:55:19
Speaker 11
I would like to add.

00:27:55:21 – 00:28:23:00
Speaker 1
I am a board member in the lead of the Making It Through program. We call it T program. Now I stepped down as lead, but I work as a consultant for the program. I think it’s very important. The program exists to serve young people in the Harlem community. So our target audience are young people from about age 14 to to 24, and we teach them about the signs and symptoms of mental health behaviors.

00:28:23:00 – 00:28:45:11
Speaker 1
We’re trying to encourage them to get support because there’s such a stigma in our community. So we want them to buy into the idea of seeking therapy. And so we’ll go into community centers. We may go into schools, whoever we will go in. It’s a free service. We also have a podcast and we have monthly newsletters which are fantastic, phenomenal.

00:28:45:13 – 00:28:49:17
Speaker 1
And so I think that’s a very important program and it’s worth mentioning it.

00:28:49:18 – 00:29:06:27
Speaker 10
Absolutely. I was just talking about how need therapy today. So I’m glad that you mentioned that. Yeah. So I will write a follow up email just so I can get involved on the newsletter, maybe for MIT, because I think that’s something that I would like to cover as well. Thank you both for taking the time out of the day to meet with me.

00:29:07:03 – 00:29:10:28
Speaker 1
It’s worth coming out for, especially spreading the word if you happen to know young people.

00:29:10:29 – 00:29:13:05
Speaker 10
I do know some young people, so I will be spreading.

00:29:13:05 – 00:29:14:12
Speaker 11
The word. Yeah. Thank you.

00:29:14:15 – 00:29:18:25
Speaker 10
Thank you. You all have a wonderful day. Thank you. I will send you a follow up email.

00:29:18:28 – 00:29:19:19
Speaker 11
Okay. Bye bye.

00:29:19:19 – 00:29:20:01
Speaker 10
Bye bye.

00:29:20:09 – 00:29:21:15
Speaker 11
Oh, that was good.

00:29:21:16 – 00:30:00:04
Speaker 6
That’s right. That was really good. That’s how we listen. To be heard. Give voice to our young people as they learn and explore in real time what it is to discover the elders in our community. What it looks like to be supportive of our communities, not just Harlem. So already right on sisters.

00:30:00:07 – 00:30:16:10
Speaker 6
I’m Darryl from Listening and Be Heard Network. And we have a thing where we we say listen and be heard. And then we finish the phrase, what does it mean to you on a day like today, to the year we’re celebrating Coltrane’s birthday? New young people were a lot of great masters. And you’re the new masters coming up.

00:30:16:13 – 00:30:31:14
Speaker 6
Rodriguez here, there’s Billy Sacks and all the great cats are beer. And these young men came and they are going to perform right and are in Colton, but in the name of humanity. So when this is going to be heard because and then you all do one.

00:30:31:16 – 00:30:32:10
Speaker 12
Can you come back to me?

00:30:32:12 – 00:30:46:02
Speaker 6
You come back to you. Yeah. Yes. To be heard. Because that’s where it’s important. Because you’re supposed to be heard. Emotion. Listen and be heard. Because it’s important to spread music. And I would say listening, be heard because you would never know who’s watching.

00:30:46:09 – 00:30:48:19
Speaker 5
Listen and be heard because.

00:30:48:21 – 00:30:49:15
Speaker 5
It’s important.

00:30:49:15 – 00:30:55:20
Speaker 13
To be to be confident, but to also, bring out people who are less confident.

00:30:55:25 – 00:31:52:08
Speaker 6
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Leo.

00:31:52:10 – 00:31:59:22
Speaker 5
All the way we are. It’s all the ways. Always the way.

00:32:00:00 – 00:32:34:18
Speaker 14
It’s in the bin in the back room. Back shelf stacked away for another day. Another way left in the darkness. The absence of sight. Making light of. Made invisible on the official record of what? Actually the way it was is will be back. Better to butter the burnt toast. Smother the roast with your special gravy. You don’t share to the recipe.

00:32:34:18 – 00:33:03:10
Speaker 14
There is no we see, we feel. We break legs, not bread. Begging is part of the art of capital W for we for the way the only known the phone in in from where no one cares. Over there where we are not the way it’s always. We’ve been, we’re not always was the thing to sing a brand new melody.

00:33:03:13 – 00:33:35:22
Speaker 14
Do dum dum. Your thumb is stained with the blueberry pie I am all the ways that we are. Have never will be. Come on, let’s go. We know we don’t want. Want for what? We don’t need to see. Nothing is all the ways, all ways. Always.

00:33:35:25 – 00:33:46:24
Speaker 15
Always afraid of.

00:33:46:27 – 00:35:35:01
Speaker 15
Always have for love.

00:35:35:03 – 00:35:53:22
Speaker 16
I think listening is like a really crucial part of my own practice and being heard. I guess there’s a difference between listening and being heard, right? Like, I, I feel like listening is sort of at the core of so much. Like if we listen to each other, you know, I think that we’ll hear better.

00:35:53:24 – 00:36:22:15
Speaker 6
And hey what’s up? This is the biggest listen and be heard. Network release. Play some cool surprises here that you will hear anywhere else. New work that was recorded by the great Craig Harris features myself and Jordan Davis, Russell Carter and Alexis Porcello, and the band went on to play well. I just wanted to be a little extra, but that was like in the 15.

00:36:22:18 – 00:38:05:13
Speaker 6
I mean, the community together and independent journalism, all these things that Martha Senator has put into our mission as a radio podcast show, being able to go live with so many great surprises, please don’t forget to donate to our cause at Soundsystem Culture that world. What? Listen and be heard. Network. Okay, everything here is going to go to giving voice to our people and our community.

00:38:05:16 – 00:38:41:06
Speaker 6
Not just Harlem, but all over the world. Hey, hope you enjoyed this show. That right there is the great Preston forward on piano and Martha, Senator and Kenji and I self last week. And this is what you can look forward to on October 17th and from 1 to 5 at I-beam 168 seventh Street and Gowanus, Brooklyn. Yeah.

00:38:41:07 – 00:44:57:04
Speaker 6
We’re producing new shows. We are going to most likely go live that day from IBM. So, we hope you can join us. Okay. All right. Now check it out.

00:44:57:06 – 00:47:42:26
Speaker 15
Later with the one thing.

00:47:42:28 – 00:48:15:26
Speaker 14
That causes grief. He knows what we don’t. He’s forgotten where he came from and reminds us to cross our legs. Perhaps it’s a shame, but we should not be. He belongs to me. And I mean to him. Then journey to me. Big daddy.

00:48:15:28 – 00:48:26:10
Speaker 14
Celebrate. How great! More faith to be born. Gloria Hahn.

00:48:26:13 – 00:48:27:03
Speaker 15
Scoring.

00:48:27:07 – 00:49:02:03
Speaker 14
May not call me hot. Yes, I am a burning fire in your soul that will cook your raw emotions and make potions to you. And a notion that you ever did anything on your own. Create the world and we. Are you a cheat? Are we sunbathing our mothers with joy? No boys around the Canadian toy and play with say, as big mother.

00:49:02:06 – 00:51:27:13
Speaker 14
Our bigger betters, our mother. Cups and saucers never read Chaucer blues. Bossier.

00:51:27:16 – 00:51:34:23
Speaker 15
Breaks pavement playing the songs of evening. And then breaks spending.

00:51:34:25 – 00:52:27:13
Speaker 6
Hey. What’s up? This is Jay Rodriguez. Sierra. What’s happening?

00:52:27:20 – 00:52:29:22
Speaker 15
So I me.

00:52:29:25 – 00:52:57:03
Speaker 6
It’s amazing what’s been happening. We are accomplishing our mission. With sound system culture or using. Listen and be heard. Network as I wait to get our message and sailing out to the people. With great artists like West and Forward, a great friend and great artists that really should be more known in this world. And so we’re here for that.

00:52:57:06 – 00:53:26:03
Speaker 6
We are the organization that means to bring light to these things. For some, food was one of the great. So we’ve been doing it every week, along with Ganges and Ahab. Omar, who just recently joined us in Dara Marie, another flutist, and of course, Martha, Senator, who’s a host and, executive director of Sound System Culture.

00:53:26:09 – 00:53:55:06
Speaker 6
Please support our work. We are about to really take off, and it’s a new ensemble. So again, question for Jay Rodriguez. Can you watch the Senator and have one more? We’ll be playing October 17th and I’ve been. So I hope to see you there. All right. Now probably a live broadcast. All right. Now peace out.

00:53:55:08 – 00:54:00:06
Speaker 15
Well, word to say.

00:54:00:08 – 00:54:01:02
Speaker 14
You want.

00:54:01:02 – 00:54:08:16
Speaker 15
Me to better be a friend, I church.

00:54:08:19 – 00:54:10:13
Speaker 15
It seems to free to.

00:54:10:14 – 00:54:13:16
Speaker 14
Me for.

00:54:13:19 – 00:54:28:06
Speaker 15
Your answer.

00:54:28:09 – 00:54:32:10
Speaker 15
But don’t know.

00:54:32:12 – 00:54:37:19
Speaker 15
Was in one. To jump.

00:54:37:22 – 00:54:57:07
Speaker 15
You can step around subway. Glad to action world right to slow.

00:54:57:10 – 00:54:59:22
Speaker 15
Each and every.

00:54:59:24 – 00:55:43:00
Speaker 17
It’s a brand new day and the thrift store is not far from a place called Tryon where we’re at right now. Birthplace of the great Nina Simone. And the store is where people try on this and try on that. But Nina never fit in, try on or maybe try on. Never fit her. The woman walks past the fitting room into another light befitting a queen, moving as such, waiting deep in the night, stars past the cutting glare of fluorescent lights.

00:55:43:03 – 00:55:58:09
Speaker 17
And that’s upon hearing try on about Nina Simone. Much honor and much love to the grace and immortal Nina Simone.

00:55:58:12 – 00:56:36:27
Speaker 9
Thanks, as always to Davion Dial at PVM Radio in Asheville, North Carolina for introducing listen to be heard to the broadcast airwaves. Casey II in Taos, New Mexico KEP in San Antonio, Texas, KHOI in Ames, Iowa, and in Red bluff, California and other stations that are part of the Pacifica affiliate network for cultivating the audio garden in your communities and our own Listening Bird Network, host of w.org.

00:56:37:00 – 00:57:00:14
Speaker 9
Please visit us at listen and Net and sign up for our email newsletter and add our Listen and Be Heard YouTube channel, where you will find unedited video interviews of our featured guests. My name is Martha Senator, and I want to thank you for listening and giving me the opportunity to be heard.

Sound System Culture presents An Afternoon of Music & Poetry for the Soul on Saturday, October 17, from 2–5 p.m. IBeam Brooklyn, 168 7th Street, Brooklyn, NY 11215 — in Gowanus.

Featuring Maestro Jay Rodriguez on woodwinds, Preston Fulwood on piano and vocals, Norbert Marius on bass, Genji Sirasi on drums, Martha Cinader poetry, flute, and Ehab Omar on percussion. Come spend an afternoon listening together and connecting through music and words. Full event details and ways to support Sound System Culture will follow in a dedicated event post.

Preston Fulwood is an artist, musician, reiki healer, producer, composer and instructor. Preston is a master instrumentalist and vocalist and is a well known studio musician and jazz pianist.

Hernán Ramiro Rodriguez Sierra – Musician, Composer, Producer

Dr. Kim McMillon, a producer and playwright, has multiple notable works including the anthology Some Other Blues and Black Fire—This Time. She created the one-woman show Confessions of a Thespian and directed Voyages, both showcased at various theaters. Additionally, her essay “Ancestor as Refugee” was published in the SAGE Encyclopedia of Refugee Studies.

Martha Cinader is a poet and author living in Harlem, NY. Her young adult novel, Marq and the Queen Fish, is forthcoming in 2026 from Atmosphere Press. Cinader is the founder and Director of the Listen & Be Heard Network, where she hosts and produces The Listen & Be Heard Hour, and Beyond Borders, both non-commercial podcasts and syndicated radio shows…

Tony Robles, “The People’s Poet” was born in San Francisco and is the nephew of Filipino-American poet, historian and social justice activist Al Robles. He was a shortlist nominee for poet laureate of San Francisco in 2017 and the recipient of the San Francisco Art Commission individual literary artist grant in 2018. His two books…

A young boy named Lakas discovers that a fish from his dreams might be real—leading him on a lively, magical chase through San Francisco’s Manilatown.

“This collection is based on my experiences and observations as someone who witnessed Hurricane Helene and its impact on the community—particularly my mobile home community in Hendersonville,”

Living It! is Martha Cinader’s debut as the producer of her own album, and features an eclectic array of arrangements and musical styles. It was recorded in part in a studio in New York City, part in a studio in Hamburg, and part live at the Mojo Club in Hamburg, throw in some bonus tracks…

In this remarkable collection, Tony Robles transforms a bright-lit warehouse into a psychic landscape to illuminate one man’s efforts to reassemble a broken life. Where the Warehouse Things Are gives the satisfaction of a book of poetry as well as a novelistic sense of a place and its inhabitants fully rendered. — Ron Rash, author…

In Thrift Store Metamorphosis, Tony Robles astutely demonstrates the palpable currency of human interactions. His keen observations show us the necessity of reflection. In this mirror, we learn that everything and anything that we pay attention to has the capability to hold deep meaningful lessons for us and our lives. Robles makes us feel a range of…

This book is a vessel/holding liquid for thirsty desirers/in the empty spiral of the universe/where detail is opinion/one moment is all it takes to answer/when the body calls. This book is just one answer in a life of calling. The storyteller lives inside the breath of home. Whatever home is chosen, whatever breath is owned.…

A collection of biographical stories and poems about fascinating people in history whose real dreams made a real difference. Developed in performance, these stories bring old tales to life for contemporary readers in a way that is both entertaining and informative.

CREDITS– CO-HOSTS & PRODUCERS: Martha Cinader, Hernán Ramiro Rodriguez Sierra, Kim McMillon, Tony Robles, Jemyah Jones. FEATURED GUESTS: Marie Hernandez, Wendy P. Malliet and Sharon Cook of Tau Omega Charitable Trust Fund. POETRY: Martha Cinader, Tony Robles. MUSIC: Jay Rodriguez Sierra, Preston Fulwood, Genji Siraisi, Ehab Omar, Martha Cinader. SOUNDTRACK, MIXING, MASTERING, SOUND DESIGN: Hernán Ramiro Rodriguez Sierra. Executive Producer, Martha Cinader.

Do you want to be heard in the garden? Please consider contributing your audio content. We grow together when we nurture our network. Click here for more information.

The Intuitive Writing Podcast hosted by Elizabeth Perlman

This is an unedited transcript of s1e5 of the Intuitive Writing Podcast. ©2026 The Listen & Be Heard Network. all rights reserved.

00:00:00 – 00:00:26
Hello, and welcome to the Intuitive Writing Podcast, a production of the Intuitive Writing Project, a writing-based empowerment program for girls and gender-expansive youth. We are dedicated to giving young women a safe, encouraging, non-critical, unconditionally supportive space to write their story, speak their truth, and assert their voice, both as writers and as leaders.

00:00:27 – 00:01:05
My name is Elizabeth, and I created this program 11 years ago because it’s what I wanted and needed when I was young, a supportive place to be truly seen and heard. That’s why we use the Amherst Writing Method, a radically nurturing and empowering writing methodology I wish everyone had learned in grade school. You can read more about the Amherst Method on their website and in Pat Schneider’s groundbreaking book, Writing Alone and With Others, but the basic principles and the ones that guide all our classes are that, number one, everyone is a writer with important stories to tell.

00:01:05 – 00:01:38
Two, everyone has their own unique voice, a voice that needs to be heard. And three, our voice will grow stronger and clearer the more it is supported and positively affirmed. The way that we do this is to repeat back and lift up words, lines, phrases, or concepts that really resonated for us. In our classes, everyone writes together, everyone shares their writing, and then everyone gives each other grounded, positive feedback.

00:01:38 – 00:02:13
Since we can’t violate the sanctity of our classes by recording what goes on there, these one-on-one conversations are designed to provide a little glimpse, a microcosm, of what happens in the classroom. You can also read about our org and read the girls’ words as they were published on our blog, The Intuitive Voice, with the links below. If you enjoy listening to one young reader read their words and talk about it, imagine how powerful it is when six young writers are reading their words and giving each other positive, affirming feedback.

00:02:13 – 00:02:38
It’s pretty life-changing and there’s a lot more I could say about it, but I’ll let these writers speak for themselves. On behalf of all the writers at The Intuitive Writing Project, I want to thank you in advance for supporting the stories of young women. Making the time to be present and really listen to girls, listen to the wisdom, insight, and brilliance of each girl is how we change the world.

00:02:40 – 00:03:06
Today, I’m so honored and excited to be sharing the writing of our own brilliant Reagan Cayley, who I would love for you, Reagan, to introduce yourself, tell us, give us your pronouns, what grade you are in school, and a little anecdote about your first experience writing. Hi, I’m Reagan. My pronouns are she, her, and I’m a graduating senior.

00:03:06 – 00:03:33
My first experience with writing was way back in like first grade when we were writing how-to books. I was not a very eloquent writer. My spelling was horrible. So I finished my book in about an hour and got in a lot of trouble for not putting a lot of effort into my book. But that didn’t really sway me from writing. I’ve never been one to really listen to my teachers all too much. So it ended up working out. That’s great.

00:03:33 – 00:04:02
Do you remember by any chance what the topic was? What was your how-to topic? I think it was like a how to do a cartwheel. Oh, well, how could you write for more than an hour about that? In fact, I’m impressed you wrote for an hour. That’s hard to describe. An hour was about three sentences for me. Oh, no. Well, you’ve come a long way since then. And I want to mention that Reagan has been writing with us since you were in sixth grade, which is amazing.

00:04:02 – 00:04:31
And now you’re graduating high school and going off to Michigan. Michigan University. University of. Thank you. All right, so I thought we would start with you reading your extraordinary piece. It’s called, I See You. And I want to mention to the audience that this was written shortly after, like a couple of days after the Roe v. Wade was overturned by the Supreme Court, I believe.

00:04:31 – 00:05:01
It was either late, no, it was early June, actually. Okay, it was this past summer. Okay, go ahead. Okay, for those who are silent, I See You. For those who scoff at women in positions of power and who look away when the protest signs are graphic or images of bloody hangers flash across the screen, I See You. I’m all seeing. My eyes burn across the country and skip over planes and farms and cities and mountains and lakes and towns.

00:05:01 – 00:05:29
My eyes do not cry tears because more than feeling sad, I am angry. This is a woman’s issue, but all the uteruses in America are being silenced and those who can speak are mute. I am scared. For now in America, I’m less than equal. The Constitution says all men are created equal and motherfucking Amy Coney Barrett took that to be literal. To be born into girlhood is to be born neck deep into violence. Don’t tell me that I have to live a life drowning in it and never holding it.

00:05:29 – 00:06:02
I’m nothing but violence. My rage leaks into my sleep, my meals, my actions and my words. I’m angry at the men who don’t speak out. Your mother, daughter, sister, and grandmother need you. I need you to fight for me. I see all of you and while my uterus is shackled, my vision is unimpaired. This can’t fade. My rage cannot pass like a tide or a storm. I refuse to let women across America with dreams, brains, hearts, and souls and wounds be reduced to the tale of a handmade or worse, a cautionary statistic.

00:06:02 – 00:06:32
Let us all remember the facts at hand. Restricting access to abortions doesn’t lower the amount of abortions women get. It simply makes them more lethal. My dad asked why. I said because the beauty of pro-choice lies in the fact that one can choose. Even if Megan from Alabama doesn’t want to terminate her pregnancy, Maria across the street can make that choice for herself. Sally two blocks down can recover after an ectopic fetus center into septic shock and grace her neighbor doesn’t have to carry the baby of her rapist.

00:06:32 – 00:06:59
Because reality is scary. Because rape victims will be forced to have the baby of their rapists. Rapists who will get less jail time than anyone who aids and abets a woman in her efforts to secure reproductive health care. Rapist, rapist, rapist. It’s a scary word, but it’s also a scary world. Because dad, my bodily autonomy should be assumed not left up to the states. It shouldn’t be questioned, threatened, or regulated, especially not by old white men.

00:06:59 – 00:07:27
Because AR-15s have less oversight than my 17 year old reproductive organs. And I’m so damn tired of active shooter drills when I should be learning about geography. Because when I ask how many more must die, I mean it. How many women will die from illegal procedural complications, suicide, or untreated miscarriages? How many children will die? Bang, bang, bang. It’s a scary sound, but it’s a scary world.

00:07:27 – 00:07:57
Reproductive rights are human rights. We’re running backwards careening into a history of oppression and gender wars, leaning into a time where my inferiority is guaranteed and my comprehensive education is not as valuable as my womb. History is in the past for a reason. We were supposed to have moved on from it. We set the clocks back too far. We dug graves for women and five justices held the shovels. Why can’t five justices just move the fuck on and get their feet off of my neck?

00:07:57 – 00:08:24
Freedom of religion was supposed to mean freedom from religion too. So I’ll wake up from my violent sleep, dust off my soap box and stand atop it. I’ll yell and shout and fight tooth and nail because I am a woman and this is what I do, but know that I see you. I hear your silence across the country, next door and at the dinner table, and I condemn you for it. You are complicit in the loss of my rights. Thankfully, I’ll never lose my fight.

00:08:27 – 00:08:52
This piece is so incredible. Every time I read it, I get really emotional, but hearing you read it this time, I had chose. I feel like I just want this to be a video of you, your face reading this that the whole world can see. That’s how powerful it is. Actually, before I comment on all the incredible lines, I just wanna sort of change the format of the way we usually talk about creative process at the end.

00:08:52 – 00:09:21
And I wanna lead with your creative process because I think it’s so powerful how you wrote the piece and how it’s structured and the intelligence. There are so much really scientific knowledge that goes into this, political knowledge, all of it’s woven together seamlessly. When you started writing it, you knew you were gonna write about this theme, but were you surprised by how it unfolded or did you know it was gonna unfold this way?

00:09:21 – 00:09:50
I knew it was gonna unfold this way. I, and this is clearly an issue I care a lot about, so I already had a lot of thoughts sort of like simmering. So it was very easy to get them all out. I don’t know, most of my pieces look something like this, like a bunch of non-attached thoughts attached to each other. So it was pretty simple in that sense. And I wanna note for the audience that this poured out in a single class.

00:09:50 – 00:10:15
You wrote this in like 30 minutes, maybe 40 minutes. It’s really fast. And I like how you say your non-attached thoughts. It’s funny because to the reader and to me, it feels seamless. They all seem to flow together beautifully like you’ve really had it organized in your head. So I think it’s more organized than you realize. Your brain is a beautiful palace of greatness.

00:10:15 – 00:10:46
Okay, so I’m gonna go read through some of the lines that jumped out at me that were just breathtaking. I think from the very first line, for those who are silent, I see you. And this whole paragraph of this sort of omniscient is the word that came to mind. This omniscient narrator who is all seeing, but also because it’s a feminine narrator and also a wise feminine, a wise omniscient feminine narrator.

00:10:46 – 00:11:13
It felt like almost the embodiment of the goddess. Like the Greek goddess is looking down, maybe Nike or Athena, looking down on the world and being like, the eyes of truth are on you. It’s so incredible to, I think because we do feel like no one’s in charge. No one knows what’s going on, but the narrator does. The narrator sees everything they see through the bullshit. I love this line.

00:11:13 – 00:11:40
My eyes do not cry tears because more than feeling sad, I am angry. All uteruses in America are being silenced and those who can speak are mute. The line about how all men are created equal and motherfucking Amy Coney. Oh, is that right? Amy. Took that to be literal. Born neck deep into violence.

00:11:40 – 00:12:16
And then again, the personification of the violence of the culture. I am nothing but violence. My rage leaks into my sleep, my meals, my actions, my words. And then all the list of things that I’m angry at. And then that line, I see all of you and while my uterus is shackled, my vision is unimpaired. I think that’s a really important line because so much of misogyny for 5,000 years has been this idea that somehow by being female and having a uterus, we’re irrational or we can’t see things clearly.

00:12:16 – 00:12:44
We don’t know what’s going on. And it’s so strong and clear that it is the very, the very womanness of this narrator that makes them so powerful. Going down to the second paragraph, that whole description of the different personifying it with individual examples, Megan, Grace, all these different Maria girls that are having very specific realistic situations that grounds it.

00:12:44 – 00:13:14
And then of course, when the writer is having to explain this thing to their father and the father of course is like, to me, it’s like a metaphor for explaining to patriarchy, which is the father. I would like to add that my dad is actually very much a feminist, someone to say. Yes, I feel like it is a metaphor. The father is definitely a metaphor. Patriarch is, I think originates from the word father, I think, I don’t know my Latin.

00:13:14 – 00:13:45
So it’s patriarchy, yeah. And then I think it’s so powerful when the writer just names three times in a row, rapist, rapist, rapist, because nobody wants to hear that word, but of course that’s what’s happening all the time. It’s a scary word, but it’s also a scary world. So incredible. And then of course, my bodily autonomy should not be left up to the states and certainly not old white men, again, patriarchy.

00:13:45 – 00:14:14
And then I think it’s really interesting how the writer brings in the whole issue of gun violence and the whole thing about how AR-15s are less, I have, there’s more, you have more freedom if you have a gun than if you have a uterus. That line, AR-15s have less oversight than my 17 year old reproductive organs. And that, of course, bringing in the whole thing about active shooter drills, it’s very interesting.

00:14:14 – 00:14:43
One of our previous podcasts was from somebody writing about active shooter drills. So this ties in so powerfully. How many children will die? Bang, bang, bang. Again, that repetition of it’s a scary sound, but it’s a scary world. And I love that the writer does this because I think so many times people, one of the ways people silence activists is they say they’re alarmists or they’re making it too dramatic.

00:14:43 – 00:15:09
And it’s like, no, it really is alarming and dramatic. And we need to be talking about it because we can’t talk about it, we can’t change it. And that’s what the writer is doing. The line, of course, very famous, but so perfect in this moment. Reproductive rights are human rights. And then I love the line, we’re running backwards, careening, great verb, into a history of oppression and gender wars.

00:15:09 – 00:15:45
Such a great description of what’s happening. History is in the past for a reason, so simple and so true. And then this pine, we dug graves for women and five justices held the shovels. Why can’t five justices just move the fuck on and get their feet off my neck? Of course, feet off my neck is a great reference to Ruth Bader Ginsburg who said, of course, women just want men to get their feet off our neck, which is such a powerful visual image because it’s like, how can you not be angry with somebody’s foot on your neck?

00:15:45 – 00:16:14
It’s not like a hand lightly holding your wrist. It’s a foot on your neck and that is the intensity of what’s happening right now, which you’ve captured beautifully. And then the last paragraph is so strong, I was gonna ask if you could just read it again, because it just might drop. So I’ll wake up from my violent sleep, dust off my soap box and stand atop it. I’ll yell and shout and fight tooth and nail because I’m a woman and this is what I do.

00:16:14 – 00:16:40
But no, I see you. I hear your silence across the country, next door and at the dinner table and I condemn you for it for you are complicit in the loss of my rights. Thankfully, I’ll never lose my fight. You, Reagan, are a true warrior for justice. And I don’t know if that, now as I’ve said that, that sounds like a cliche, but it’s meant with the highest praise. You are a warrior and it comes off in this piece.

00:16:40 – 00:17:12
This is the writing of a warrior. And all I could think was, thank God you exist in this world and are doing this work and speaking these truths because boy, we need people speaking up because of exactly what you’ve been writing about. The silence is deadly, really. And everyone needs to be speaking. So my next question is for you, if there was, if you actually got a chance to speak to the whole world and say, give one message that people would hear, what would that be?

00:17:12 – 00:17:39
Okay, one message that everyone can hear. I would say, if you’re not mad about something in the world or if you don’t wanna change something in the world, then look around because you might be the problem. Oh, I love that quote, Reagan. And I especially love that you brought up anger, which is, I think, one of the most important emotions for us to recognize and own as women.

00:17:39 – 00:18:07
It actually makes me think about something one of my teachers told me years ago, which is that anger is the first step to freedom. And I have since found that to be 100% true. Anger is the body’s natural response to a violation. And until we let ourselves feel angry, we can’t change the thing that’s causing the problem. In fact, I think the people in power also know this.

00:18:07 – 00:18:41
They also know the value and the power of anger, which is why women and girls have always been anger-shamed because they don’t want us to wake up and take action. It’s also why, as you know, I’m always encouraging girls to write a list of things they’re angry about because I want us to connect to our anger so we can get fired up and take action to change things. I feel like anger is also the first step to leadership, which is what you have shown in writing this, Regan.

00:18:43 – 00:19:09
The next question is about your creative process. And if you have any advice for other young writers who are staring at the blank page or they get stuck, tell us a little bit about your creative process. What do you do when you get stuck? If you get stuck, just tell us how it is for you to write. Well, I always have a lot of things cooking in my head.

00:19:09 – 00:19:41
So I would say I have an overabundance of ideas. So I’ve never quite encountered like a blank page that I can’t fill. It’s more just like, I have one sentence and then I’ve got to build around that. I don’t know, most of my writing is in just a very semi eloquent rant style. So it’s more just like where that sentence takes me and I just sort of let that happen. I never have anything that like, I really am like, oh, like I need to get to this.

00:19:41 – 00:20:07
I sort of just like let the conclusions come when they… Okay, that brings up another question. When you’re writing and it feels like, based on what you’re saying, that you really like hit a vein. Every time there’s like a vein of truth that you just have to release and it flows out of you. What is your mindset when you’re writing? Like, do you feel relaxed? Do you feel like it’s almost like pouring, just coming through you?

00:20:07 – 00:20:33
Are you thinking really hard? What’s it like when you’re writing? It’s not a lot of thought. It’s more just like, oh, like this would sound cool or this, I don’t know. I never take it too seriously really. There’s really no punctuation, all of the like, I don’t know, it’s a very like, it’s really cliche, but it’s very like musical process for me. Like I like everything to have a very clear rhythm. It’s more just like wherever, whatever my head thinks of next.

00:20:33 – 00:21:10
I never really think of it again once it’s passed. Yeah. That’s interesting. My interpretation of that is that you’re writing intuitively. Like intuition doesn’t require thought and that’s often why we discount it. Just culturally, we tend to value like laborious, intense mental effort. But of course, science is showing us that it’s actually when your brain is relaxed and you’re just letting your intuition, your intuitive ideas flow through, it’s actually more sophisticated than intense, arduous, rational thought because our rational brain is actually quite small compared to our intuitive brain.

00:21:10 – 00:21:36
So I’m hearing you say it’s just like a intuitive flow of thoughts and feelings that have been just bubbling up in you and they get released. Which leads me to my next question because you do have so many brilliant, wise, insightful thoughts to get onto the page. I mean, everything you’ve ever written has blown me away. What do you do when you’re not writing? What happens to all those ideas?

00:21:39 – 00:22:05
I don’t know. They just like, I just let them pass by. They just pass. I’m not really done like writing things down that like I have a dream about. I don’t know. I don’t really reminisce on my thoughts unless it’s like an assignment that I forgot to do. I don’t know. Like if they have it in an important time, they have it in an important time, but like if I thought it once, I can always come back, so. That’s great. So they flow like a river.

00:22:05 – 00:22:31
Sometimes you jump in the river, sometimes you’re not in the river. And then do you ever, because again, I feel like listening to your writing is cathartic for me because it’s just cathartic meaning a release of pressure because I’m hearing you, the writers saying things that I also think, and it’s so powerful to hear somebody say it. Is writing cathartic for you? Yes, writing is very cathartic.

00:22:32 – 00:22:58
I mean like you’re putting something into actuality and like once it’s out, you can’t take it back, especially if it’s like pen written or like typed. So yeah, I mean, it’s cathartic because like it makes things real, which I like, but some people might not like. Yeah, but it’s, I mean, that’s the power of writing.

00:22:58 – 00:23:28
It seems like the writing itself is, it’s like an end unto itself. The process is its own fulfillment. Would you say that’s true? Yeah, I mean like in a lot of ways, it’s just like the process is just sort of like where I get the joy out of it. I don’t know, a lot of the stuff that I write or that like I need to write is kind of personal. I’m a pretty private person. So yeah, if you have anyone seeing it, it’s definitely not where I get joy from the process.

00:23:28 – 00:23:56
Yeah, it’s just getting it out on the page. And then my other question is because I think about this all the time. For me, I feel sometimes that I can’t express my truest ideas and ideals unless I’m writing. If I’m only talking, like a lot of stuff gets sort of missed. I wonder if you who are an amazing speaker and an amazing writer ever feel like, do you feel like writing is a more powerful tool for you?

00:23:57 – 00:24:27
I think that writing is probably my most powerful tool only because like words can, words are just words. There’s no like permanence to them, but writing is like a very permanent way of conveying your thoughts. And I think that’s what makes it like a much better tool, especially the things that I want to achieve in life. I just think it’s a much greater tool cause like you really can’t take back what’s in writing.

00:24:28 – 00:24:59
And depending on, no matter what you do, I know you’re gonna do amazing things. If you write something and it is printed, you can reach so many more people versus just saying it to one person. Yeah, like I just think that like writing like words, like even when I’m listening or learning, I have to read something to learn it and like retain it. Like if someone’s just talking to me, I’m not really remember the conversation, but I’ll remember something I’ve read.

00:24:59 – 00:25:25
So I think that like writing and reading and like that sense of like consuming the language, like so much easier than just listening to a speech is like reading it for me, easier and more powerful. Cause like you’re immortalized, you know? That’s beautiful. Makes me think of that quote, that reading is breathing in and writing is breathing out.

00:25:26 – 00:25:52
So it sounds like that’s what you do. You breathe it in and you breathe it out. It’s breathing, yeah. And also I think I’m the same. I’m a visual learner, so I have to see it written versus some people it’s hearing it. But yeah, words go right through, but reading it, seeing the words on the page. And it’s also crazy when we think about what words are, they’re just weird little marks. They’re symbols, but we know what the symbols mean.

00:25:52 – 00:26:23
And to us, they have such magnitude. You read something beautiful, it changes you. And I will say that I’ll close on that thought that when I see and read your words on the page, it changes me. And everyone who hears your words is changed by them because they’re these little marks that are loaded with power and wisdom and leadership. And I just wanna thank you for the honor, truly at the honor of writing with you and talking with you about writing.

00:26:23 – 00:26:31
You are incredible. Thank you so much. Thank you for your time, Megan. Of course, this has been so good to talk to you.

Some Thoughts on Women’s Rights with Reagan Kaelle 

For our fifth podcast, listen to recent high school grad, Reagan Kaelle, read and discuss her brilliant piece, “I See You,” in conversation with TIWP founder, Elizabeth Perlman. Note: this podcast explores mature topics like abortion and may not be suitable for children. 

You can also enjoy Reagan’s words on our blog, The Intuitive Voice:
https://intuitivevoice.org/2023/05/10/i-see-you/ 

To learn more about our organization, visit us at:
https://www.intuitivewritingproject.com/ 

Thank you for your time and presence, supporting the voices of teenage girls! 

Elizabeth has a BA in Media Arts and a Masters in Transformative Arts, the study of creative expression for healing, connection, and growth. She is also a certified Group Leader in The Amherst Writing Method. Before launching TIWP in 2013, Elizabeth worked for over a decade as a graphic designer and art director in the advertising industry.

Word Magic: The Power of Writing to Reframe Your Story & Reclaim Your Intuition by Elizabeth Perlman is a self-help book that uses writing as a tool for self-discovery, healing, and empowerment, drawing from her “Intuitive Writing Project” for women and girls. It offers practical guidance and over 150 writing prompts to help readers trust themselves, reframe negative narratives, and find their inner wisdom through…

This compilation of 27 poems was written over the course of 25 years, from 1998 to 2023. (The title is reflects the author’s extreme delay in sharing her work—and yes, that is a unicorn finger puppet, taking time to smell the azealas!) The main theme of every poem is self-empowerment: remembering who we really are and reclaiming our innocence, our freedom and our joy. A…

CREDITS– HOST & PRODUCER: Elizabeth Perlman. FEATURED GUEST: Reagan Kaelle. Hosted by Listen & Be Heard Network.