Little Addicts

In this episode, I'm joined by my friend Philly Powell, the Wellness Provocateur and founder of Wellbeing Tick. Philly helps businesses ditch burnout, rethink work, and create cultures where people don't just survive—they thrive.

A few months ago, over a meal, we both admitted to snacking after dinner.

Right then and there, we decided we wanted to stop, and NEAD was born.

NEAD stands for not eating after dinner.

After giving up alcohol, we thought NEAD would be easy…it wasn't!

This podcast is about why we decided to stop EAD and the insights and hurdles we've experienced, such as…

• The Turning Point: Recognising the Need for Change
• The Experiment: Challenges & Strategies
• The Psychological Side: Identity, Mindset & Emotional Aspects
• The Unexpected Lessons & Outcomes

It's a raw and authentic conversation between two women who combine their knowledge about changing habits and nutrition to stop unnecessary EAD.

We'll tell you what helped and what didn't and offer valuable suggestions (just in case you also struggle with EAD!), including replacing self-criticism with self-love.

"For me, the biggest thing was the admission because this is secret stuff. This is stuff that women keep secret from one another." – Kerene Strochnetter

"We are both delusional, BUT we are very aware of supporting one another to nail this!! The radical honesty and vulnerability are a key part of the process to change." – Philly Powell

Producing podcasts takes a lot of time and love, so I'd be so grateful if you'd please share the love in return!

Send me a message – I'd love to know the one thing you'll do differently after listening to this episode.

Share this episode – you never know how this episode could change someone's life!

Rate the show and hit the follow button – to introduce more people to this epic community!

Connect with Philly

⁠www.wellbeingtick.co.nz⁠

⁠Wellbeing Tick Instagram⁠

⁠LinkedIn⁠

⁠The Wellbeing Junkie Instagram⁠

Connect with Kerene

[email protected]

Mindful at Work

LinkedIn

Instagram

James Dear is a recovering drug addict. He was severely addicted but has been sober for over 5 years. In 2018, he started a movement called 'Break The Chain' to raise awareness and provide information about addiction and mental health after tragically losing a close friend to suicide. He took his advocacy to the next level by training as a counsellor and now works in a residential drug and alcohol treatment centre.

In this episode, James talks about his personal experience with addiction and how practising meditation, yoga, and spirituality 'broke the chain' for him…

In this episode, we discuss:

• James's tendency from a young age to gravitate towards instant gratification.
• His struggle with loneliness, being bullied at school and enjoying the protection, security, and safety of an antisocial group at secondary school (despite it being quite hellish!)
• Around 17, his friends got into class A drugs, and while terrified that he'd die if he used, he was more scared of being alone.
• Getting into drugs and the underground rave scene.
• Not planning on becoming a 'drug dealer', but developing a tolerance to drugs, and unable to afford it, he started to sell.
• Waking up in a police cell after crashing his car and the shame of losing his licence and getting caught with ketamine, cocaine, and MDMA.
• His addiction to ketamine and self-medicating to deal with life's difficulties.
• Despite knowing he had to sort out his own life after a friend's suicide, he drank stupid amounts of alcohol and experienced unbearable cravings. Unable to feel any happiness (anhedonia), and falling back into full-blown addiction before things got really dark.
• Recognising that changing geographical locations doesn't work because the problem was his mind, and he took it with him.
• Becoming the most unhappy, anxious, and desperate he'd ever been and binge eating.
• Reflecting on what's missing in our culture, e.g., rituals for moving from boyhood to manhood, girlhood to womanhood, and young people taking on responsibilities—being part of a family unit compared to our culture.
• The dangers of placing individual happiness above everything else and how society tells us if we buy this, we'll be happy.
• How being stuck in the echo chamber of self-centredness is at the root of addiction and mental health problems because it's so disconnecting.
• Believing the heart and soul of recovery from addiction is relationship.
• The impact of attending a meditation retreat even though spirituality wasn't on his radar.
• Yoga and noticing the connection between his body and mind and stress.
• The impact of yoga philosophy: temporary things cannot satisfy us; we are not our bodies or our minds; we're the driver of those things.
• The experience of trying to squeeze happiness out of material things and becoming empty.
• The practice of stepping back and watching the mind on a rampage—full of desires, cravings, and emotions.
• Bringing these practices into his life because he was desperate!
• Becoming convinced that drugs and alcohol can never, ever possibly deliver real happiness, although they can provide sensory, temporary relief.
• If he'd been told immersing yourself completely, single-pointedly, spiritual mantras or spiritual sound vibrations make you less attracted to material things, and you can experience this eternality, peace and happiness— he'd be like, "Okay, that's mental, whatever!".
• Flip-flopping between drinking and drugs and noticing he'd get super anxious, start self-doubting and thinking negatively.
• How doing Karma yoga, practising kindness, and giving without expectation put a massive smile on his face and changed his life.
• How things he practised as a counsellor and drug and alcohol clinician (like CBT) align with the connection between the body and the mind, the physiology affecting the mind.
• Our mutual challenges with religion!
• Recognising there is happiness higher than substances, sex, porn, shopping—or whatever you engage in that's compulsive and wish you didn't—and that relationships are key.

Connect with James:

Break The Chain Website

Break The Chain Instagram

Meditation New Zealand

Connect with Kerene:

Website – Mindful at Work

LinkedIn - Kerene Strochnetter

Instagram – Kerene_strochnetter

Facebook – Mindful at Work

Meredith McCarthy is a clinical hypnotherapist, author, and speaker with over 30 years of experience helping individuals unlock the power of their minds to overcome challenges, including addiction and anxiety.

Meredith founded the New Zealand Academy of Clinical Hypnotherapy (NZACH) and is president of the New Zealand Association of Professional Hypnotherapists (NZAPH). She's passionate about empowering others to transform their lives by addressing subconscious patterns and fostering emotional healing.

Meredith blends psychodynamics, cognitive psychology, and hypnosis techniques to address the root causes of behavioural issues. She also offers practical strategies, such as self-hypnosis. Her innovative HELP System guides individuals to unlock their mental potential, fostering self-belief and resilience.

In her therapeutic work, Meredith emphasises the 'Three D's'—Detachment, Determination, and Direction—as a framework for overcoming addiction and achieving personal growth.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Imagining a life beyond where you are now - asking yourself: "Where do I see myself 10 years from now? What if I don't change anything?"
• Connecting with YOUR values, not what others want or expect from you
• Regression work and revealing the source of an addiction
• Normalising hypnosis and hypnotherapy – your mind is not being taken over!
• You're either using the mind as a dress rehearsal for something you're going to do or tuning into channel "I hope I don't!" and reinforcing your worries
• Stepping back into your internal power, shifting your story and asking yourself, "What is the new story I need?"
• How awareness gives you a choice (where attention goes, energy flows)
• Challenging beliefs like it's going to be hard, and I'll always be an addict!
• Bringing your optimist out to play (and how hypnotherapy makes the journey easier)
• Reminding people that they are not behaviours; they are pure potential
• How AA affirmations reinforce the identity of "I'm an addict"
• Working with clients dealing with addiction (and past trauma), believing the client has the answer, and being their cheerleader
• When you've been in the depth of dysfunction (with a substance), thinking having one drink will be okay is just the addiction talking…
• Conversational hypnosis and different types of induction (including progressive relaxation) and instant induction
• Dealing with resistant clients—you can't push them!
• Future pacing, imagining 'as if' potentials, and the power of mental rehearsal
• Food addiction, stress, binge eating (and purging) and understanding a person's relationship with food (and how they want it to be)
• How hypnosis, alpha and theta brain waves states, and being open to suggestion allows our creative 'anything is possible' to take a front seat
• Who hypnotherapy is not recommended for (the risks)
• Joyful emotional states and the power of positively pumping that up!

We would love to know what stood out the most for you in this episode. Please feel free to contact either of us via the links below.

Remember to rate the podcast on Spotify or leave a review on Apple Podcasts; your support will help us reach a wider audience and help more people.

Connect with Meredith:

LinkedIn: Website and Business

Podcast: NZACH Talk time

Connect with Kerene:

Website – Mindful at Work

LinkedIn - Kerene Strochnetter

Instagram – Kerene_strochnetter

Facebook – Mindful at Work

I loved this conversation with Carl Lemieux from Mindsmatter. I could talk with him for hours!

Carl is an author, workplace psychologist, management consultant, executive coach, psychotherapist, and mindfulness teacher. With 35 years of experience in corporate strategy, transformation, and leadership development, Carl understands the importance of well-being and self-awareness for himself, leaders, and the workforce.

He doesn't see himself as an expert on addiction, but in my eyes, he's a behaviour change expert with a wealth of experience.

Carl summarises this episode beautifully - " You've got a conditioned brain and a higher brain, and if you don't train the conditioned brain, you'll get stuck in your habits, patterns (and addictions) for a long time." The good news is, it is trainable!

In this episode, we discuss:

• What's getting in the way of you reaching your full potential
• Doing the groundwork (un-layering and releasing accumulated traumas and unprocessed emotions) to allow the higher self to emerge
• What it means to scale consciousness
• Classical psychotherapy (understanding why you do what you do) and newer modalities like EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing), IFS (Internal Family Systems), Breathwork, psychedelics, and Somatic work
• Bringing awareness to what moves you away from consciousness and mindfulness and putting systems and rituals in place to condition a different way of moving forward
• How our sense of identity and seeing life as either safe or unsafe is programmed in from an early age, becoming the filters for how you see and react/respond to the world
• Taming and befriending the automatic fast brain so the more evolved slow brain can kick in
• The link between trauma, living from your fast brain and addiction
• The practice of mindfulness - adopting a new strategy to deal with physical discomfort and learning how to process unpleasant emotions
• How the brain's Default Mode Network (DMN) validates your sense of identity and ego structure (perhaps you're telling yourself you're not good, funny or smart enough?) by finding information to confirm who you think you are, not the person you could be. Ouch!
• New and ancient modalities to calm down the DMN and open up new opportunities
• Psychedelics and taking the DMN offline, dropping our defence mechanisms and changing our relationship with the ego structure
• The power of metacognition (knowing you're thinking versus being yanked around by your mind)
• Imagine observing your thoughts just like you can smell pizza!
• Detaching from and dealing with unprocessed emotions instead of staying stuck (often leading to addiction)
• Educating people on how to prepare for and use psychedelics and their risks.

We would love to know what stood out the most for you in this episode. Please feel free to contact either of us via the links below.

Remember to rate the podcast on Spotify or leave a review on Apple Podcasts; your support will help us reach a wider audience and help more people.

Connect with Carl:

LinkedIn: Carl Lemieux

Website: Mindsmatter

Connect with Kerene:

Website – Mindful at Work

LinkedIn - Kerene Strochnetter

Instagram – Kerene_strochnetter

Facebook – Mindful at Work

Zach Cotogni and his sister Michaela wrote Blue Honey—Personal Experiences Using Psilocybin for Mental Health in Aotearoa, a book that challenges ugly preconceptions and misunderstandings about using MCPs (Mushrooms Containing Psilocybin, more commonly known as Magic Mushrooms).

In this episode, Zach talks about his experience using MCPs to overcome his addiction to alcohol and drugs.

I interviewed Michaela on the Little Addicts podcast in episode #8. It was a raw and emotional interview where Michaela spoke about her long struggle with mental illness, running out of options, and ultimately deciding to break the law and use MCPs as a last-ditch attempt. If you're interested, go back and listen!

Disclaimer: As psilocybin is a class A substance in New Zealand, we're not encouraging anyone to take these substances but to raise awareness.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Using drugs and alcohol from the age of 12 after realising he didn't like himself
• Being a scared, confused, angry young man and how alcohol gave the illusion of strength, empowerment and being in control
• The ongoing cycle of using drugs to escape the reality and to dampen his emotions
• Constantly chasing a rush and enjoying amphetamines (stimulants)
• Turning his life around following a messy experience at a mate's wedding and getting an ultimatum from his wife (sensing this time she meant it!)
• Deciding to stop drinking, not knowing how, and stumbling upon magic mushrooms
• His "wow" moment with MCPs-having an outside view looking in and experiencing a movie reel of his intoxicated moments, how he had treated people, and what an arsehole he was-and knowing he would never drink again!
• Writing the book Blue Honey after finding out that many people in NZ who have done their healing behind closed doors
• What Zach sees as the future of psychedelic-assisted therapy
• MCPs are a not a silver bullet, or without risks, but should be considered an alternative
• Setting yourself up for a bad trip and the importance of set and setting
• What needs to be put in place to make psychedelic therapy safe and more available as an option
• Advice he'd give anyone wanting to try these substances (don't think of it as a recreational trip; it's for healing purposes)
• Being a typical Kiwi male taught to push down pain and reach for pain-eroding substances (that work in the short-term but create more pain long-term)
• Zach's message to the world or anyone going through a similar experience.

We would love to know what stood out the most for you in this episode. Please feel free to contact either of us via the links below.

Remember to rate the podcast on Spotify or leave a review on Apple Podcasts; your support will help us reach a wider audience and help more people.

Connect with Zach:

Website: Blue Honey

Connect with Kerene:

Website – Mindful at Work

LinkedIn - Kerene Strochnetter

Instagram – Kerene_strochnetter

Facebook – Mindful at Work

What I love about Buddhism is how it aligns with neuroscience (and how neuroscience proves that Buddhism is true).

In this episode, I'm joined by Patrick Kearney. Patrick explains how the Buddha's teachings help us to understand and overcome addiction.

He's particularly interested in the Buddha's original teachings before the invention of "Buddhism", and applying the Buddha's radical insights to our contemporary life.

Patrick has practised mindfulness meditation since 1977 and spent several years as a Buddhist monk. A full-time mindfulness meditation teacher for over twenty years, Patrick conducts residential and online retreats, workshops, and seminars.

For Patrick meditation as a physical practice that reconnects us with our senses and allows us to live life directly rather than through the cling wrap of our habitual thinking!

In this episode, we discuss:

• Returning to the Buddha's original teachings before the invention of "Buddhism"
• Buddha's interest in human flourishing and asking, "How do we live well?"
• Having an addictive relationship is what the Buddha calls 'tanha', meaning thirst, clinging or craving (not good because it creates more pain)
• The four noble truths and the concept of dukkha (classically translated as 'suffering' but refers to all unsatisfactory experiences)
• Where there's addiction, there's craving; where there's craving, there's dukkha (suffering)
• The solution is to drop the craving because when the craving ceases, dukkha ceases... (easier said than done!)
• Patrick's past relationship with marijuana and coffee (he's not giving up coffee!)
• The simile of the second arrow to explain how we create more pain and suffering for ourselves
• Seeing Buddhism as a rational model for working with addiction and craving (once you understand the dynamics, you can do something about it!)
• How clinging to a sense of identity holds an addiction in place
• Why Buddha rejected fatalism (i.e., everything that happens is the will of God, a result of fate, or past causes) because if you believe any of them, you'll give up!
• Emotion as primary (we are not rational beings who feel, but feeling beings who reason)
• The more connected you are with your body, the better you can function; the more cut off you are, the less you can function (most of us have lost this skill!)
• The dangers of living in your head, how it's becoming more common and noticeably worse (probably all about the screens...)
• Addiction to thinking
• Meditation as a physical, not spiritual, practice
• Using meditation to live in the world more directly instead of using it to zone out and avoid unpleasant emotions
• Addiction is a habit, and habit is a choice, but it's so habitual we don't see it
• Going deeper into the mind, you see you have a choice, and freedom becomes real
• Our natural hesitation to meditate and dive into dukkha (our suffering)
• Why meditation is challenging when you're not living aligned to your values
• Mindfulness and seeing the results of your choices ('Oh, I thought this worked, but it doesn't!').

At the end of this podcast, we decided that Patrick, the Buddha, and I are all on a dukkha reduction project!

We would love to know what stood out the most for you in this episode. Please feel free to contact either of us via the links below.

Remember to rate the podcast on Spotify or leave a review on Apple Podcasts; your support will help us reach a wider audience and help more people.

Connect with Patrick:

Patrick Kearney Website

Connect with Kerene:

Website – Mindful at Work

LinkedIn - Kerene Strochnetter

Instagram – Kerene_strochnetter

Facebook – Mindful at Work

Richard Bolstad trains NLP Practitioners and trainers in America, Europe, Asia, and Australasia. He has written or co-written over 20 NLP books, which have been translated into nine languages. His book 'Transforming Communication' has been a core text in several New Zealand university programs. He has also been a personal trainer for some top New Zealand business and sports people, including leading New Zealand triathlete Steve Gurney.

Richard won the NLP International Award from the ANLP in 2017, the first year it was offered. He delivers with integrity and precision and has offered invaluable help to people traumatised in the aftermath of earthquakes in New Zealand and Japan, as well as helped in the aftermath of war in Eastern European countries. He has been described as "modest and very personable, and reading about the difference his NLP work has made, especially in response to a crisis, is pretty amazing."

Richard has many professional trainings and qualifications. He is a member of the New Zealand Association of Psychotherapists, a trained Teacher (Diploma of Teaching Tertiary), a Registered Nurse, a Master Trainer of NLP with several international NLP Certification Organizations such as IANLP and IN, has a State of California-recognized Doctorate in Clinical Hypnotherapy, and is currently completing a Degree in Archaeology at Leicester University.

In this episode we talk about:

• What it means to be human and how to pull yourself out of unhelpful patterns
• What NLP is and its wide range of uses
• Instead of seeing addiction as a disease, seeing it as a normal process where a person finds themselves blocked from resolution
• How society is irrational in what it defines as an addiction (what it deems socially acceptable and what's not)
• Richard's unhealthy relationship with alcohol as a teenager
• Focusing on learning from our successes when we want to change
• The power of showing people how to get into a positive mind state and finding enjoyment in their life
• How psychedelics interrupt the default mode network, leaving people with no choice other than experiencing the present moment and the preciousness of life
• The relationship between trauma and addiction and the story of Vietnam veterans
• Getting away from treating addictions (especially to chemicals) as a legal and policing issue and making it a healing issue (costs less with better results!)
• The experience of having a Prime Minister and Head of Police in his training
• Richard's process for helping someone clarify what's important enough for them to commit to change before doing anything to interrupt a behaviour
• Out-thinking your fast brain and making healthy food choices
• The benefits of incorporating playfulness
• Recognising the part intergenerational trauma plays in the Ukraine and Gaza

We would love to know what stood out the most for you in this episode. Please feel free to contact either of us via the links below.

Don't forget to rate the podcast on Spotify or leave a review on Apple Podcasts, your support will help us reach a wider audience and help more people on the road to recovery.

Connect with Richard:

Websites - Transformations or https://richardbolstad.com/

LinkedIn – Richard Bolstad

Facebook - Transformations

Connect with Kerene:

Website – Mindful at Work

LinkedIn - Kerene Strochnetter

Instagram – Kerene_strochnetter

Facebook – Mindful at Work

Gai Foskett is a Master Certified Coach and a Master NLP practitioner. She also has an MBA and works with senior leaders and managers, business owners, professionals, and entrepreneurs in NZ, the USA, Australia, Asia, the UK, and Canada.

Gai's coaching approach draws on contemporary neuroscience, positive psychology, change management and models, Philosophy, Systems theory, Emotional Intelligence, Motivation theory, Thinking and creativity, Mindfulness and Mindful leadership, and NLP.

In this episode, you will learn about:

• Addiction as part of the human condition.
• Appreciating the Buddhist principles (of craving or avoiding) while letting go of self-judgment.
• Understanding that even when the pain of addiction is excruciating, the idea of changing can feel worse!
• Finding the highest positive intention for behaviour change and letting go of what's not serving you.
• Explaining that mindfulness doesn't necessarily mean getting down on a cushion and lighting incense—but a practice to cultivate an extremely high level of awareness.
• Drinking a lot of Whiskey after the death of her first husband
• Until you see the impact of your behaviour, there's usually no need to change.
• Practices that work best and the importance of helping people find the right tools.
• Moving through the discomfort of change, building new neural pathways and the importance of aligning your behaviour with what's important to you (your values)

We would love to know what stood out the most for you in this episode. Please feel free to contact either of us via the links below.

Don't forget to rate the podcast on Spotify or leave a review on Apple Podcasts; your support will help us reach a wider audience and help more people on the road to recovery.

Connect with Gai Foskett:

Website – Gai Foskett

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/gaifoskettcoaching/

Connect with Kerene:

Website – Mindful at Work

LinkedIn - Kerene Strochnetter

Instagram – Kerene_strochnetter

Facebook – Mindful at Work

In this episode, Michaela talks about her own mental health journey that led her to use MCP (Mushrooms Containing Psilocybin, commonly known as Magic Mushrooms) and why she and her brother Zach wrote Blue Honey – Personal Experiences Using Psilocybin for Mental Health in Aotearoa.

I've been following what's happening in the psychedelic space since reading Michael Pollan's How to Change Your Mind - The New Science of Psychedelics. Psychedelics are on the precipice for radically changing how we treat mental health – in particular, depression, end-of-life anxiety, PSTD and addiction (especially alcoholism and drug addiction).

Disclaimer: The legal status of psilocybin mushrooms varies worldwide. In New Zealand, psilocybin is a class A substance, and in the USA, it's schedule 1. We're not encouraging anyone to take these substances but to raise awareness. It can be dangerous to take these substances with prescribed medicines or other substances.

In this episode, you will learn about:

• Michaela's long and arduous struggle with mental health, her decision to come off all medication, and being prepared to die.
• Her brother Zack getting their parent's blessing for Michaela to try MCP.
• What happened after her first dose (experiencing hope!)
• Weighing up the risks—being seen as a criminal in the eyes of the law and being imprisoned—or living, getting better and saving herself by taking healing into her own hands.
• Writing Blue Honey (with her brother Zach) to raise awareness of the healing power of MCPs, given the general misunderstanding of psychedelic substances.
• Horror stories of people taking a hallucinogenic and having a 'bad trip' - seeing the Grim Reaper and what that symbolised to her.
• Acknowledging PTSD as the underlying cause of her suffering (and why traditional approaches weren't working)
• What it means to have a 'come to Jesus moment', curing 'assholism', and 'psychedelic bitch-slaps!
• How psilocybin differs from traditional approaches.
• Somatic experiencing – and why that's so important.
• Having a guide or Shaman is incredibly important, as well as understanding that these substances are not magic bullets.
• Her advice to anyone wanting to try MCPs.

We would love to know what stood out the most for you in this episode. Please feel free to contact either of us via the links below.

Don't forget to rate the podcast on Spotify or leave a review on Apple Podcasts; your support will help me reach a wider audience and help more people on the road to recovery.

Connect with Michaela Cotogni:

Website – Blue Honey

Blue Honey – The book

LinkedIn – Michaela CotogniInstagram – Mushrooms as medicine

Facebook – Blue Honey NZ

How Magic Mushrooms Rearrange the Brain

Homological Scaffolds of Brain Functional Networks

Connect with Kerene:

Website – Mindful at Work

LinkedIn - Kerene Strochnetter

Instagram – Kerene_strochnetter

Facebook – Mindful at Work

Scott is the founder of Calmly, a Kiwi breathing innovation tool that supports healthy ways of relaxing, assists vapers and smokers in quitting, and helps reduce general anxiety and stress.

Scott has a Master of Science from Lincoln University and extensive experience in the tourism, environmental advocacy, and, more recently, health and wellness sectors.

Over two decades of research and development have gone into honing the Calmly device, with several discoveries during that time, such as the benefits of diaphragmatic breathing and engaging the parasympathetic nervous system, along with the device's wellness links to aromatherapy, mindfulness, and meditation.

If he had to choose his favourite Calmly aroma, it would be the lavender, lemon, and Roman chamomile blend.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Using Calmly devices to replace vaping and cigarette smoking
• What makes Calmly unique? (Fresh air in the lungs and aromas up the nose!)
• Calmly, as an alternative self-soothing and mindfulness activity that encourages the act of deep, steady diaphragm breathing to provide relief during times of stress
• Using Calmly when you're having a freak-out moment as a distraction technique
• The small risk of hypersensitivity
• Why teenagers are vaping and advice to parents
• How nicotine blocks happiness chemicals and is a bugger of a habit to kick
• Helping people get away from nicotine using aromas like cocoa, black pepper, and menthol
• Targeting smell glands - the primitive part of our brain - and using the purest, distilled, high-quality aromas

We would love to know what stood out the most for you in this episode. Please feel free to contact either of us via the links below.

Remember to rate the podcast on Spotify or leave a review on Apple Podcasts; your support will help me reach a wider audience and help more people.

Connect with Scott:

Website - Calmly World

LinkedIn – Scott Pearson

Instagram – Calmly World

Facebook – Calmly World

Connect with Kerene:

Website – Mindful at Work

LinkedIn - Kerene Strochnetter

Instagram – Kerene Strochnetter