Lone Star Lawyers

Kristen Mynar, a board certified estate planning and probate attorney and partner with Naman, Howell, Smith & Lee in Waco, joins us on today's show. Kristen talks about maximizing your mentors, caring about your clients, and what she looks for when hiring (hint: it's not on a resume!).

Her firm/practice

Offices in Waco, FW, San Antonio, Austin
Most of the attorneys specialize in something, and there isn't much they don't do
Her typical client has high-net worth and a closely held business, so you wind up working with them both on the estate planning and business related issues.
Board certified as soon as she could, five years after starting practice
Law is always changing so always have to stay on top of it; changing administrations can have an impact certainly so watching for whether new laws get passed at the federal level
Current exemptions are at all-time highs but set to expire and be cut in half in 2026.
Waco is a great community; friendly/competent lawyers; way more money here than you would think, and those people keep their money here.
Does a lot of work with partners in the other offices, as well as with clients in the small communities around Waco. Also succession planning for client businesses.
Estate Planning can touch a lot of practice areas

Advice to lawyers in practice

Her grammar was a problem in the beginning! So she got red inked on everything for three years.
She had great mentors and was a sponge. She listened/learned. Did push back when it looked like there was more than one way to do something.
Fortunate to have someone who wanted to teach her how to practice.
Much of her practice is drafting/writing, and she kept making the same mistakes at first. So she made a list of all the mistakes she would typically make, and then before submitting anything to the partners would go over that list to see if she had made any of those mistakes.
Learn to compensate for yourself
Be humble
Take a minute and think about it! See if you can figure it out. The reader should be able to tell that you at least thought through it.
RE: Business development: just be out in the community and make sure people know what you do. Offer to go speak to different groups. Do a good job and care about the client!

Advice to Lawyers On The Lateral Market

Not a big believer in resumes.
In interviews, looking for personality. Are you a person that I want to practice with? Personable? Easy to talk with?

Rapid Fire Questions

Name one trait/characteristic you most want to see in an associate: ability to use their brain
What habit has been key to your success: keeping my time every day
Favorite app/productivity tool: N/A - all apps are anti-productive
What would be listed first on the interest line of your resume: mothering, (low-carb) cooking, lounging
Favorite legal movie: Bowl? The Case for Christ

Thanks again to Kristen Mynar for joining us on today's show!

Erin Brockovich is an outstanding 2000 film based on a true story about a woman who never gives up, doesn't take no for an answer, and helps get justice for an entire town. Robert and Daniel are joined by special guest Hope Mustakim to break it all down!

Check out Hope's Waco ISD campaign page! https://www.hope4wacoisd.com/

Spencer Edwards, a shareholder and trial lawyer with The Hudgins Law Firm in Houston, joins us on today's show. Spencer talks about how to conduct yourself in trial, being eager to learn, and demonstrating work ethic in an interview.

His firm/practice

97 Baylor Law grad (25 years of practice)
Catastrophic Injury / Wrongful Death trial lawyer (though hasn't tried one since 2019 due to COVID)
COVID has essentially created a backlog of cases and trials, and that hasn't stopped new cases from coming in
Has a case set for trial March 1st
The shift in the judiciary has made an impact on the practice (R to D in Harris County), which initially meant actual trial lawyers were on the bench which was helpful. But now, there has been a shift in competence, experience, and consistency as well, which creates a different dynamic
More high dollar verdicts in recent years has injected uncertainty on the defense side in valuing cases as well as emboldened plaintiff's lawyers

Advice to lawyers in practice

Remember that you are going to work with/against lawyers/judges again, so don't be a jerk!
Chill
No need to be super aggressive
Only takes one moment to damage your reputation
Throw inside if you must, but don't throw a beanball!
If another attorney does that to you, however, you have to be willing to push back, especially in front of the jury
If rules of procedure/evidence don't apply, then they aren't going to apply, so don't be the only one confined by them
Also have to be prepared for rulings against you, even if they are clearly wrong
Do it with a smile on your face; don't lose your cool; don't try to embarrass the judge; you can get makeup calls!
Keep perspective
You are going to lose cases, even some you should have won (you'll probably win some you should have lost)
Don't let losses devastate you
Exude confidence in the courtroom; act like you feel like you can/should win
Don't be afraid to ask dumb questions / pride is dangerous to a young lawyer
And ask why
Don't make the same mistake twice
If something needs to get done right now, that might not be the best time to push back/challenge/ask why...just do it! Find the right time/context.
The best way to develop business is to do good work; and then watch the way lawyers at your firm develop their business and imitate that
Learn how to talk on the phone! Older partners/clients expect it and are used to it

Advice to Lawyers On The Lateral Market

He's not a big resume guy!
At their firm, a couple of younger lawyers review all the resumes and decide who to interview, and so he rarely sees the resumes. Also, law schools vary with their grading scales, so it is hard to compare candidates based on that
Impressed with work history (even in high school and college) that demonstrates work ethic
Important to bring up these things in an interview if you realize it could help you, since these items are likely not on your legal resume

Final Thought

From Professor Matt Dawson's speech to his law school graduating class: "I'm a smart guy, but that's not why I have been successful. I am successful because I have always worked hard. Don't get outworked. Don't let the other side beat you by outworking you." Great trial lawyer advice.

Rapid Fire Questions

Name one trait/characteristic you most want to see in an associate: Eager to learn
What habit has been key to your success: Get some sleep
Favorite app/productivity tool: Whiteboard
What would be listed first on the interest line of your resume: Baseball / Astros
Favorite legal movie: My Cousin Vinny

Thanks again to Spencer Edwards for joining us on today's show!

Dave talks about being known as a trial lawyer, being proactive, and conversational interviews.

Christian Dennie, a sports lawyer, commercial litigator, and partner at Barlow, Garsek, & Simon in Fort Worth, joins us on today's show. Christian talks about understanding the case, demonstrating grit, and how the new name, image, and likeness legislation is playing out thus far.

His firm/practice

Firm is headquartered in Fort Worth with a Southlake office
Commercial firm (no criminal)
He focuses on sports clients but does a number of things under that umbrella including arbitration
Fort Worth / Tarrant County legal practice
Small town with over 1M people
Plenty of large businesses
Lots of lifers
More local/Texas based firms
Collegial and supportive of one another
New name, image, and likeness NCAA rules and state laws, as well as potential changes to the NCAA constitution are significant issues

Advice to lawyers in practice

Have someone that will take you under their wing and serve as a mentor to you and help you learn/grow
You win lawsuits in the library and not the courtroom
Sometimes the law is not on your side but you need to be creative because things need to change
Can happen in the courtroom with a decision, OR
In a settlement or outside of the courtroom...can be just as good as a decision
Take the case and figure it out
It's not about sitting in your office 18 hours a day to show that you are committed; but it's not about the hours
You are a problem solver
Ideal is to be at a law firm that has enough work that you aren't having to "create time" to meet your billable hour requirements
Daniel recalls former guest Jim Chester's advice to never leave a partner's office without the DDB (deadline / deliverable / budget).
Important for the client to understand what they are asking as well
Formulate a game plan early for how you are going to generate the clients you want
Put yourself around the clients you want, but with the expertise you have even if that is different than what you ultimately want to do
Understand the culture/business/environment of the clients you want to serve

Advice to Lawyers On The Lateral Market

Demonstrate the work you have done
How does your work history match what the firm needs
Is there a cultural fit?
If you played sports in college or beyond that stands out to him because of the grit factor
Trial experience, judicial clerkships, real estate deals/closings, employment contract experience all looks good
If you don't have those things, do you have the interest, curiosity, and willingness to transition

Sports Law 

Not a lot of large national deals yet
2nd Circuit Court of Appeals / Gatto case
Lots of local/regional deals
Just making sure they comply with state law, because if they don't then they won't comply with NCAA rules
Contract can't extend beyond eligibility and there are multiple places in agreements where perpetual licenses are inserted
Bonuses based on results are not permissible and some of the early contracts had those in there
Schools are starting to get a better grasp of it
Texas' law specifically says you can't use logos/marks which can cause issues
Some schools are trying to figure out how to permit the use
Houston Travis Scott concert
Was there adequate security?
What does the license on the ticket say and do we have an enforceable arbitration clause?
What if you are forced to click a link to go out and read the fine print of the license?
Insurance?
The NCAA recommendations on constitution/bylaw changes is a major issue in college athletics; especially if we see more power pushed down to the conference level

Rapid Fire Questions

Name one trait/characteristic you most want to see in an associate: Ability to roll up the sleeves and get after it; willing to do what it...

Anne Heaviside, a managing director and legal recruiter with ELR in Houston, joins us on today's show. Anne talks about the lateral legal market, work from home policies, and top tips for candidates. 

Her firm and role

ELR Legal is in the Tanglewood area of Houston
Specializes in 2-10 year lawyers in Texas law firms / mostly Houston / mostly Big Law (AmLaw 200)
Got her start practicing law, including at McGlinchy Stafford. She then took over the recruiting role there before stepping out to work as a legal recruiter on the outside

Legal Market Update

2019 was good as was the start of 2020
COVID put everything on hold until about November 2020
November things opened up, especially in the Big Law corporate world (Can you say SPACs?!)
Capital Markets
M&A
Private Equity
Debt Finance
2021 only got hotter
Big signing bonuses ($10k-$50k)
There are not enough corporate associates in Texas for the demand
The need is new work. Clients have more demand from Big Law firms and there aren't enough 3-6 year associates with the necessary skills.
Record number of lateral moves in Houston and Dallas
Plus new Big Law firms opening up in Austin
September hit and those associates have worked between 2000-2800 hours already in 2021 and are no longer taking recruiter calls; they are waiting for their year-end bonus before lateralling at the start of 2022.
Real Estate an Executive Comp/Employee Benefits have gotten hot
Big Law litigation is cool/slow
Litigation boutiques are hiring but they are super picky (think Big Law requirements)
Davis Polk raised the first year starting salaries from $190k to $205k and Cravath (the previous trend setter) matched (as have several others now). Has led to some mid/small firms rethink their comp.
Big Law v. Small Law
Corporate v. Litigation
Hardly any small/mid corporate firms
No sign of slowing down in 2022
In this market, small/mid associates and in-house lawyers CAN make a move to Big Law
Work/Office Arrangements
Flexibility is here to stay (in Big Law)
How flexible is the question
AmLaw 50 is still at home in Houston or back in the office by choice
Multiple office firms across the county/internationally have a hard time making different policies for different offices
AmLaw 200 will likely move to a 3/2 (three days in the office and two at home)
Though new associates will likely be required to be in the office for the training/mentorship/culture/etc.
Mid-levels and Senior associates will likely push for even more
Small firms
Will likely have more variety of policies
More likely to be in the office than the Big Law firms
Challenges to flex work
Lack of integration within the firm
What happens when promotion time comes or the work slows down and layoffs are required? Will the person who has been at home be disadvantaged versus the one who has been in the office?
How can we replicate the in-office benefits and experiences that we don't want to lose?

Advice to Lawyers On The Lateral Market

This is not OCI anymore
Not tell me about yourself or what practice to you want to go in
There is a specific need they are looking to fill
So firm needs to understand exact experience
If you have stellar academics (great grades at a great law school), list that first. Otherwise start with your law firm experience
3-6 bullets under each position communicating exactly what you do
Your role in what types of deals/cases
You can take out the bullets under internships or clerkships if you need space
If you have been practicing for at least 3+ years you need a deal sheet
Know as much about the job you are applying for as possible so you can tailor your experience to the need
Litigators definitely need a writing sample
GPA on...

Shameer Soni, managing partner and real estate lawyer with Patel Law Group in Dallas, joins us on today's show. Shameer talks about starting a law firm, the real estate practice, communicating via resume, and wide receivers v. linemen.

His firm/practice

Runs the real estate practice: multi-family purchase/sale/development.
Works with retail/industrial/hospitality clients as well
Started the firm 11 years ago with two other partners built around entrepreneurs and business owners. The idea was to represent these clients in their core business as well as their investment portfolio (i.e. real estate).
Started with clients whose core businesses were doctors, IT staffing, hotel
Led to corporate immigration and real estate practice areas
Also had/have a title company
Now have a litigation practice as well that has recently pared down to work with clients adjacent to the real estate practice
Got his start at a larger firm doing entertainment/film finance in Atlanta, but when he came over to start this firm, the Dallas/Texas market didn't support the film finance area, which led to the transition to real estate
He went to every networking event, meetup in the beginning to get the firm off the ground
His partner Anish went to a networking breakfast every week at 6am at Steak and Shake
There is no bad meeting, no bad meetup. Your network has value in perpetuity.
In the early days, he built relationships with lawyers who knew what they were doing and were willing to help when he got into situations he was unsure about
Learned a lot about firm culture and the things they wanted in a firm while working for others, and then used that info to build the culture in their firm. Want to be the un-law firm law firm. From social interaction to limiting hourly billing (they do zero hourly billing on the transactional side). Conduct exit interviews with lawyers who leave and learn more about ways to improve the firm's culture.
Market
90% of their work is in Texas; 60% in north Texas.
Deals ranging from $2M to $300M and all of those are in a strong market right now.
Industrial is hot right now as well.
Community retail is picking up.
Hotels were crushed and remain so for now.
Residential is on fire in Texas, but COVID has slowed down the process with supply chain issues, etc.

Advice to lawyers in practice

Learn business development and client relationships early; be proactive in asking to go with your partner on client visits
Learn everything about a deal, not just your specific task/role
Do as many meetings as you can
You want to become a profit center as soon as possible rather than be a cost center for the firm
Recognize that you are part of the deal and collaborating with the client for a win-win scenario; it is more than just a piece of paper
Clients aren't hiring you to be a title review guy; they are hiring you to do a deal
Must understand the forest and not just your tree
Establish trust with your partners quickly so they are comfortable bringing you along to meet partners without embarrassing them

Advice to Lawyers On The Lateral Market

Recognize what the firm is looking for and make sure your documents clearly communicate your ability to meet those needs
Be specific about what you have done
What size deals?
What type of deals?
What role did you have?
Find ways to connect with the partners (did you go to the same law school?)
He rewrites his bio on the law firm website every quarter! It is a good exercise to think about when writing/rewriting your resume.
Looking for the right fit for the need they have at the time
Broadway show staffing example
Football recruiting example

Final Thought

Attitude makes up for a lot; skills can be learned/taught. Much harder to teach...

Erin Rodgers, entertainment lawyer and shareholder at Rodgers Selvera, joins us on today's show! Erin talks about the ever changing entertainment industry, knowing your value, and the interest section on your resume.

Her firm/practice

Partnered with Sergio Selvera
He had stopped practicing for a time to start a record label when he came to a CLE where she was speaking.
She became his lawyer for a time, and then he decided he wanted to practice again and they decided to partner up
Entertainment law
Music/TV/Writers/etc.
Non-profit
IP / contractual
She has a music degree and is still a performer, which has helped her build the practice through the relationships she has
Houston is the 4th largest city in the country so there is a lot of art business
Austin has a better marketing department for its arts scene
But much of the work is federal and the communication can be done remotely, so geography doesn't tend to matter as much
Being an artist helps her understand what clients are going through as new technologies/distribution/etc. issues come up
Textbooks can't keep up with the changes in the industry
Students can help you keep up!
One record label friend says they are predominately marketing new music via Tik Tok and Fortnite
Why not you? (when it comes to practicing entertainment law)
Do something every day that moves you forward to the thing you want to do.
Entertainment Law is an amalgam of things that already exist (copyright, entity formation, trademarks, etc.)
Non-profit/entertainment/sports have quite a bit of overlap, and for the arts sometimes the entity itself should be a non-profit
There is a new Copyright Royalty Board
Essentially a small claims court/mediation for copyright, since so many "violations" go unchallenged due to the high cost of lawsuits
Pros/cons: will make many more people/companies likely to be challenged for their work that takes from others
A panel is supposed to make decisions

Advice to lawyers in practice

If you want to practice entertainment law, volunteering with the Texas Accountants and Lawyers for the Arts can provide great experience
Show your sincere interest in the practice
Don't make it more convenient / less costly in time for the lawyer/partner do just do it themselves as opposed to showing you how
Know the value of the service that you offer
If you aren't charging enough, some people/potential clients/referrers may assume you aren't good
Understand the market
Setting your rates can help you filter what type of clients you work with
On Work/Life Balance
Make the choice as early on as you can
Prioritize certain things on top of your law practice, even if its small chunks of time
Minimize the amount of work that isn't billable
That we can do everything ourselves doesn't mean we should

Advice to Lawyers On The Lateral Market

Highlight specific experience that relates to the position, the industry
Interests section matters!
"want to work in a small office" not the best response to why do you want to work here. Maybe that could be the 4th/5th thing on the list, but certainly shouldn't be the first.
Employers can tell when you are sending the same cover letter to every job/employer. Tailor your cover letters! She actually gave credit to those who voluntarily submitted a cover letter when it wasn't asked for.

Rapid Fire Questions

Name one trait/characteristic you most want to see in an associate: think on your feet / adaptable
What habit has been key to your success: work/life balance
Favorite app/productivity tool: pen/paper list and random number generator
What would be listed first on the interest line of your resume: playing music (clarinet, accordion, guitar, piano, vocals)
Favorite legal movie: Legally...

Marty Sadler, insurance litigator with Litchfield Cavo in Houston, joins us on today's show! Marty talks about managing up, maintaining your humanity, and the importance of poise in an interview.

His firm/practice

22 offices across the nation
full service firm
Houston office (15 lawyers) mostly does insurance work (he does 1st party and many in his office do third party)
Texas lawyers needed for so much of the weather-generated work (hurricanes/hail/wind) that Texas generates
New Texas Supreme Court opinion in Hinojos (v. State Farm) - related to payment of claims after an appraisal. Used to be that if you paid promptly, you avoided all the statutory delay interest penalties. The SC took that away.
COVID update (9/29/21)
With 22 offices there are 22 different COVID situations; every office doing their own thing
Houston office: people can decide how much they want to work in the office v. at home
Marty has only been back in the office once since March 2020; and that one time was by order of a Federal Judge for a hearing!
Very few in-person hearings; no trials since the start of COVID
Expects he will work in a hybrid office format for the rest of his career
What have we lost (or will lose) moving more to relationship online v in-person?

Advice to lawyers in practice

Attention to detail is the most salient element for success as a young lawyer
Learn how to "manage up" in your professional relationships
Don't just react
Communicate with your partners as to what your workload is like and ask for the priority order of the projects
Talk to other associates and see how they work with their partners/supervisors
Resources:
https://www.idealist.org/en/careers/managing-up
https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-does-it-mean-to-manage-up-11608242276
https://www.attorneyatwork.com/managing-up/
Push to product
He can't revise a motion that you haven't given him, or that is missing large pieces
He wants to see the work twice: once as a framework of the work early that he can edit, and then a polished form of the product later
Partners may have a different process, so again it is important for you to get to know what each partner you work for expects/requires. Also have to manage the calendar to allow for the entire process to work before filing
On business development
Learn how to be a lawyer first
You don't have to be 50 to get your first referral; young lawyers have an opportunity to get cases early in their careers
On work/life balance
You can always work longer/harder, so you can become consumed in being a lawyer
You have to figure out a way to remember you are a human being first
Don't go home to the family as a lawyer


Advice to Lawyers On The Lateral Market

He likes to see some judicial intern/clerk experience if you are a new lawyer so you have been in the courtroom
Writing samples are helpful
Show poise in the interview; comfortable and confident when things change on them
Find ways to talk about what you bring to the firm and how you will help the firm


Final Thoughts

If you are an associate, the best thing you can do to improve your career is to make yourself indispensable to your partner(s). Will increase your client contact, chances to do depositions, etc.

Rapid Fire Questions

Name one trait/characteristic you most want to see in an associate: poise
What habit has been key to your success: attention to detail
Favorite app/productivity tool: Word
What would be listed first on the interest...

Lauren Valkenaar, a partner and commercial litigator with Chasnoff Stribling in San Antonio, joins us on today's show. Lauren talks about having an internal standard, being honest and authentic in your job search, and developing business best practices.

Her firm/practice

Boutique litigation firm
Business/commercial litigation
Broke off of a large firm and wanted to maintain the same level of quality but get a little more autonomy
Flexible/nimble
Cases deal with Breach of Contract, Tortious Interference, Fraud, etc.
COVID has changed the way they practice
Not physically in the courtroom, but they have adapted well
Zoom hearings will likely stay
Their clients get sued all over the country, so Zoom is a positive
Zoom depos are a different thing and in-person is more important there
COVID also impacting their clients
How to deal with their employees / working remote or in-office
Everyone is an employment lawyer now (Daniel)
Don't get complacent with your technology (Daniel) / Don't be a cat!
San Antonio
Very collegial bar
All the amenities of large city but a smaller town feel
Great mentors because lawyers are close and kind
As a young professional, many more opportunities to get involved in the community and make an impact at a high level

Advice to lawyers in practice

Create an internal standard / desire to get it right / goes beyond checking the box / when you know that you are likely the only one to know whether or not you "ran an issue to ground."
So much of being a lawyer is internal motivation
Surround yourself with great people who keep these high standards
You are the average of the five people closest to you (Daniel / Jim Rohn)
Think about the business aspect of the law firm
Learn from people who are different from you
Be a team player; that shows up immediately and makes a big impact
Are you offering to help on other cases when you are done for the day but others are still working?
Focus on the work product / the words / the documents
Have an intellectual curiosity; think/learn beyond the discrete task you are working on; try to get a handle on the larger picture and how your piece fits in
Don't be a jerk
Don't have sloppy work product
Communicate, especially if you are doing work for multiple partner with different deadlines. Don't just be silent.
On business development:
Plant seeds and build relationships with zero expectations they will turn into business
Your law school classmates can become your clients or referral sources; stay in touch with them!
Do great work
Get involved in the community
Don't do something for the sole purpose of developing business: rarely does that work
Over time, business will come in more from referrals based upon the work you have done for someone; but that takes time to build up

Advice to Lawyers On The Lateral Market

No typos in the resume!
Connection to the type of work should show through in the resume
Continuity and not a lot of jumping around firm to firm
The more specific you can be on the resume the better in order to show what they've done and accomplished in their prior/current roles. Helps you to stand out, but also for the interviewer to know how to slot you in if they do hire you. How much training will you need, etc.?
Come to the interview prepared with questions
Avoid arrogance/entitlement; that's a turnoff
Honesty and authenticity shines through

Final Thoughts

Be honest and self-aware in what you are looking for in a firm; those are critical to making a good match in the hiring process.

Rapid Fire Questions

Name one trait/characteristic you most want to see in an associate: Grit (book by Angela Duckworth; Ted Talk)
What habit has been key to your...