How do we move beyond the "gatekeeping" of our institutions to practice a love that is truly transformative?

In this soul-stirring conversation, host Dwight Dunston is joined by Zae Illo and Lisa Graustein to explore the intersection of spiritual practice and radical justice. Together, they challenge us to look beyond "market logic" and historical comfort to find a faith that meets people exactly where they are—on the streets, in the struggle, and in the heart.

The episode grounds itself in the words of early Quakers Isaac Pennington, John Woolman, and Catherine Payton, using their 17th and 18th-century visions as a springboard to ask: What does it mean to "restore love to its right place" in a world of broken systems?

Zae Illo is a public theologian and street minister in San Francisco. His ministry focuses on the material and spiritual needs of the unhoused, bridging the gap between faith and the harsh realities of urban life. He is the author of Wild Deep Waters and a prophetic voice on the necessity of "transgressive" love—a love that flows outside the bounds of what society deems "normative."

Lisa Graustein is a lifelong Quaker, artist, and justice educator. Her work centers on healing, transformation, and dismantling white supremacy within spiritual and secular institutions. She brings a wealth of experience in mutual aid, peacebuilding, and "Afrofuturism," inviting us to imagine a future where resources are shared in common and every gate is opened.

They explore:

• Love as Transgression: Why following the spirit often requires us to break cultural norms and "market logic."
• The Myth of Private Property: A critical look at the "Diggers" vs. early Quakers and the radical call to hold all things in common.
• Institutional Gatekeeping: How our organizations (and meeting houses) inadvertently limit access to the "light" and how to dismantle those barriers.
• Tools for Connection: Lisa’s "Great-Great-Grandchild" framework for finding common ground in a polarized world.
• The Ministry of the Streets: Why material assistance is a vehicle for hearing the testimonies of those the state deems "disposable."

Politics does not determine someone’s character or someone’s essence... What if we were curious as to why?" -Zae Illo

Hear "radical curiosity" and a call to live into the Kingdom of God as a present, breaking reality.

NEW Video Version available at Pendle Hill's YouTube page.

The transcript for this episode is available on https://pendlehillseed.buzzsprout.com/
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The Seed is a project of Pendle Hill, a Quaker center open to all for Spirit-led learning, retreat, and community. We’re located in Wallingford, Pennsylvania, on the traditional territory of the Lenni-Lenape people.

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This project is made possible by the generous support of the Thomas H. & Mary Williams Shoemaker Fund.