Lutheran Answers

Dr. Chris Caughey joins Lutheran Answers to uncover the rich tapestry of Christ in the Old Testament, exploring types, shadows, and promises fulfilled in Jesus. From Moses’ intercession to Jonah’s struggles, this episode reveals the deep Christological threads woven through Scripture.

In this episode of Lutheran Answers, Dr. Chris Caughey, Lutheran pastor and scholar, discusses the presence of Christ in the Old Testament. The conversation explores how key figures like Moses, Abraham, David, and Joseph serve as types and shadows pointing to Christ’s ultimate fulfillment of God’s promises. Dr. Caughey explains the purpose of the Mosaic Law, Israel's need for a perfect representative, and the significance of Old Testament events and symbols, such as the Passover and manna, as precursors to the Eucharist.

The discussion also delves into more nuanced topics, like biblical theology, the organic growth of God’s revelation in Scripture, and how figures like Jonah and Esther embody themes that ultimately point to Christ. Through lively dialogue, the episode illuminates the profound interconnectedness of Scripture and its focus on the person and work of Jesus Christ.

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As the Old Testament clearly reveals, God’s plan for salvation has always centered on Christ. Each figure and event in Scripture points us toward the one who fulfills the law, bears our sin, and leads us to the ultimate promised land. In Christ, we find the better Adam, Moses, and David—the perfect Savior who brings life and redemption to all.

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[00:00:00] Remy: I have written my thesis, obviously, my outline. I've got at least a draft done, and I'm working on, you know, building that out.

None of that.

I've got an outline. I've definitely done the research, and I've got mental notes.

[00:00:31] Dr. Caughey: So that's as much of the paper as is done, huh?

[00:00:35] Remy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't tell my professor.

[00:00:39] Dr. Caughey: Okay. It'll be our little secret.

[00:00:42] Remy: Excellent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I. I do have time slated to work on it, though, so.

Oh, hiding your background.

[00:00:55] Dr. Caughey: Well, I'm just wondering if I should.

[00:01:00] Remy: I'm leaving all this in.

They've already seen the background.

[00:01:05] Dr. Caughey: Very nice. Okay.

[00:01:15] Remy: Oh, oh, from beyond the void or.

Oh, interesting, interesting, fascinating. Dr. Cahi, thank you for volunteering to be on my show.

[00:01:38] Dr. Caughey: Well, thank you, Remy. It's good to be here.

[00:01:40] Remy: Yes, sir.

How long have we known each other now?

[00:01:46] Dr. Caughey: Oh, my goodness.

At least two years, doesn't it?

[00:01:51] Remy: Two years? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it was the 2023 Pastors Conference. I think we have, like, really met for the first time.

[00:02:01] Dr. Caughey: Right.

But we may have bumped him into each other in a. In a, you know, class or something before that.

[00:02:09] Remy: Yeah. And I think Twitter as well.

[00:02:12] Dr. Caughey: Yes.

[00:02:...

Lutheran, Fantasy Writer, Imperfect Human Being.

This episode of Lutheran Answers features Jeremy Abrahamson, a Lutheran author and member of the Evangelical Lutheran Synod (ELS). Jeremy discusses his upbringing as the son of a long-serving pastor, his own educational journey, and his experiences as a writer. He introduces his new book, a dark fantasy novel titled Eight Witch Hunters, blending themes of tragedy, Christian theology, and gothic storytelling. Jeremy elaborates on the book's inspiration, mentioning influences like Cormac McCarthy, Glenn Cook, and Tolkien, as well as his approach to integrating subtle Christian themes into a violent, brooding narrative.

The discussion also touches on broader themes such as the nature of writing, the balance of faith in storytelling, and the challenges of staying authentic as an author. Jeremy shares anecdotes about his influences and his writing process, including his motivations, inspirations, and the theological and philosophical underpinnings of his work.

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• Blood Meridian

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• Rev. Dr. Jordan B. Cooper
  • Just & Sinner

• Tony Pittenger's Episode

Don’t shy away from challenging material—whether in literature, faith, or life itself. Growth often comes through grappling with what’s difficult, sitting with it, and letting it refine your understanding. Resist the urge to...

Are Mormons Christians? Click Here for our full article.

Make sure to check out Truth In Love Ministries and support their efforts.

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[00:00:03] Mark: We didn't.

[00:00:04] Remy: Great.

[00:00:04] Mark: This was perfect. This was just. Let's. Let's visit and catch up.

[00:00:10] Remy: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Pastor Mark, thank you so much for willing to. Being willing to come back on to the show, huh?

[00:00:21] Mark: Absolutely. Thanks for the opportunity.

[00:00:24] Remy: Yeah, you're. Your episodes were some of my favorite last season.

Some of my favorite that, that I, that I've ever.

[00:00:40] Mark: Thank you.

[00:00:40] Remy: Yeah, I actually, I started watching a.

An ex Mormon and so many Mormons deconstruct into atheism, which is sad because they're just as lost. Right. And that's, that's so depressing. And I got to watching this girl on YouTube named Alyssa Grinfell.

[00:01:11] Mark: I think, yes, she is the up and coming ex Mormon influencer, if you want to call her that.

[00:01:17] Remy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. She. I mean, I have watched probably most of her videos start to finish and there's long man. They're like, she puts out really long form content, but it's so captivating. And I'm trying to get her on the show honestly, just to chat, but she doesn't respond to my emails.

[00:01:37] Mark: Mine either, so we're the same boat.

[00:01:41] Remy: But I was watching one of her videos and it was something she said and I don't know if she worded it exactly like this or kind of like this, but it made me realize her videos that if you're a woman in the LDS faith, the best you can hope for. The best you can hope for is.

And it's, it's. I'm sorry, this is harsh and it's like a hard way to put it, but the best thing that there is for you in eternity is to be.

[00:02:15] Mark: A sex slave and perpetually pregnant. Propagating your worlds. Yeah, yeah.

[00:02:22] Remy: And that's it. And like that's for LDS women. That's like, that is LDS men are the ones that get all of the, all of the blessing. You get to be a God of your own planet and do all this.

LDS women, you get exalted, but your only purpose is to provide spirit children to populate the world. And you talk to LDS people about this and they. I've tried it a few times and they get really defensive because it's a very offensive thing to say. But then you ask them questions. You say, well, what does Heavenly Mother do in our daily lives?

Are we allowed to pray to Heavenly Mother? No. And then here's the real big one. Is there only one Heavenly Mother?

LDS doctrine doesn't actually clarify that.

[00:03:17] Mark: It doesn't. It is one of the most under expounded upon doctrines but overly embraced doctrines of Mormonism. And when it comes to specifically women that are leaving the church today, I would say Alyssa is really resonati...

Today I'm joined by Ryan Howard, an LC—MS DCE (Director of Christian Education), to talk about youth ministry.

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[00:00:04] Remy: Thank you so much for joining me on Lutheran Answers.

How you doing?

[00:00:11] Ryan: Doing okay. It's been kind of a crazy couple of weeks. We had a really big wedding at our church, and we were involved in that. It was our. Our senior pastor's daughter got married, so.

[00:00:24] Remy: Oh, wow.

[00:00:25] Ryan: Really big deal. And my kids were in it, and we were in it, and we were doing all kinds of stuff. And so that was last week, and then this week we've been trying to recover, and of course, you know, my kids got sick, of course, and all that. So crazy. And we also have family in Florida, so we've been worried about them, but they're all okay. Everyone's good.

[00:00:47] Remy: Good, good.

[00:00:49] Ryan: So how are you?

[00:00:50] Remy: I'm all right, man. Tired. Just, you know, working and school and everything else. Just getting through it. Thank you for asking.

[00:00:58] Ryan: Yeah, of course.

[00:01:00] Remy: So we were talking a little bit before we got started here, and you're a DCE, and you come from a long line of DCEs, or educators in general, I guess.

[00:01:10] Ryan: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:01:12] Remy: Recap that for me.

[00:01:13] Ryan: Yeah, so I. I've been a DCE for almost 10 years now.

I'm currently serving in the Houston, Texas area. Before that, I was in. I was on Long Island, New York.

That's a. That's a distinction. You can't say in Long Island. You have to say on Long Island.

[00:01:30] Remy: Okay.

[00:01:32] Ryan: What I learned that I'm not from there, but. Yeah. So I got my DCE certification at Concordia University in Chicago, and that was great. My father is a DCE now. He does primarily music ministry.

He's an organist and choir director, but he also did youth ministry before that. And his parents were both Lutheran educators. My grandmother taught kindergarten for, like, 40 some years.

My grandfather was a teacher and then a principal in Lutheran schools for a long time. And. Yeah, so it's kind of run in the family. This Lutheran education has always been a part of who I am and. And hopefully will continue for a long time.

[00:02:23] Remy: Yeah. Good. That's awesome. What's your favorite part about being a dce?

[00:02:29] Ryan: I love.

I love lots of. About being a dce. Probably one of my favorite parts is the awesome people that I get to work with, like other DCEs and other pastors, you know, being able to connect with other Lutheran teachers and. And learn from them and grow with them and talk to them. And, you know, you're the. The ministry team that I have, you know, and even my. You know, it's just me and. And my pastor at my church, which is great, but, you know, just in our District, we have other DCEs and other workers and professionals that I get to connect with regularly. And, you know, the Lutheran world being kind of small, I really enjoy that because I really love meeting people and seeing what they're doing and, and yeah, just we're all, we're all going about the same mission in lots of different ways and it's really coo...

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[00:00:00] Remy: Reverend Deberny. Thank you so much for being willing to come on my show and talk to me.

[00:00:09] Rev. Deberny: Oh, it's a pleasure. Thank you for having me on. I love to, love to talk to fellow Lutherans about our faith, about the church and anything I can do to help.

[00:00:20] Remy: So to get this started, just sort of generally around what we're going to be talking about. If you could introduce yourself.

How long have you been doing ministry? Where are you at currently? Where'd you graduate from? Tell us a little bit about yourself.

[00:00:35] Rev. Deberny: Oh, I love talking about myself.

[00:00:38] Remy: Don't we all.

[00:00:39] Rev. Deberny: So my story, I like to say in the LCMS I would be what you call a system guy in that I just kind of went through the system. I, I grew up in an LCMS congregation out in Buffalo and Niagara Falls and I knew when I was seven years old I was going to be a pastor.

It's the divine call. God just calls you and I think that kind of is an example of that. I saw my pastor, he came to visit us. We, it was a school associated with the church and the pastor would visit every day and I saw him like that. That's, that's what I want to do. And I've had a lot of support, I had a lot of support from family, from friends. This is a vocation that you should pursue. So I went through the system. After high school I went to a Concordia, Concordia Nebraska where I studied conc. Computer science but also the pre seminary program, getting my Greek and Hebrew, all that done, graduated in three years with the Bachelor's of arts. And then you had to make the choice which seminary you're going to go to. And fortunately the computer science degree actually turned into a career at Concordia Publishing House. I developed software for a church management called Shepherd Staff. And so the choice of where I would go to seminary became easy because I had a side gig at in St. Louis. So I went to Concordia St. Louis for a Master of Divinity education and for after two years I got my vicarage assignment. And that vicarage assignment was kind of crazy because that was the 2020 year, which if you remember that was during the COVID pandemic. So I actually found out where I was going on vicarage at home, no call Service, over the TV. It was crazy. I was called to Garden City, New York which about, I would say a 30 minute drive east of New York City, Manhattan. And I spent a year there learning about, you know, what it means to be a pastor with the field experience.

It definitely was a fit for me. I didn't know if I was going to be coming back to New York. But I remember our district president. He was not district president yet, but he came to visit me during vicarage and he gave me the old like, so where do you think you would fit in as a pastor if you were to come back to our district? That kind of talk. Right.

And so after my fourth year we received our call assignments and sure enough I returned to the same district. And now I am a pastor at Grace Lutheran Church in Mastic Beach, New York which is about 60 miles east of the city, so further east on the island. And I am now in my third year. So two years ministry have not scared me off. God be praised for that. He has been with me in my ministry and I thank him every day. I thank him for the support I've received. I got called to a wonderful cong...

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[00:00:03] Remy: I would love to just keep geeking out with you all night.

[00:00:08] Chris: Anytime.

[00:00:09] Remy: Chris, welcome to the show, man. Thank you for being here.

[00:00:12] Chris: Thank you.

Glad to be here.

[00:00:16] Remy: So I think we have a pretty comprehensive talk tonight. I've got my show notes up here in front of me. We have a pretty comprehensive talk tonight about all sorts of things, I guess just your own sort of journey to Lutheranism and then to, you know, leading your family and. And, you know, father led faith formation, things like this, which is wonderful and something I really want to discuss. Overall.

[00:00:47] Chris: I. I actually grew up in the ELCA Lutheran Church.

[00:00:52] Remy: Okay.

[00:00:53] Chris: Which wasn't the nightmare that it is now, but it was still. I mean, you know, we had some female pastors, like, associates growing up. Right. And I remember even back in Sunday school, you know, my, My teacher would take biblical stories and try to give scientific explanations for things. And so, you know, I. I remember one time she had this story how, you know, Moses led the Israelites across to the Sea of Reeds rather than the Red Sea, and that it was much easier to cross.

And so, you know, my teenage mind, I was like, well, you know, that doesn't really solve your problem because then you have Pharaoh and his armies drowning in a shallow sea of reeds.

[00:01:45] Remy: Yeah.

[00:01:45] Chris: So one way or the other, you know, something miraculous had to happen.

And it. It was definitely miraculous that I kept my faith during that time because, you know, it just. It seems like everything was going against it. But as. As I grew up, I. I started to question infant baptism. That was probably the. The biggest struggle I had.

And I decided I wanted to go look for a different church because I just didn't like the direction the ELCA was going. Sure. So I ended up at a Mennonite Brethren Church, Anabaptist.

And there, I mean, they welcomed me in.

And it. It's still a church that I love the people there. And, you know, there's a few guys that I'll meet with every week for Bible study. So, you know, I keep in good contact with them. I. I actually just saw the pastor that church about a week ago.

But over the course of, like, the last or the. The. I was there about 17, 18 years, and I just struggled with this idea of someone being baptized and saved as an infant. And it. It got to the point where my main struggle was, you know, when do we enter into this covenant? You know, do you enter into the covenant upon baptism as a baby or upon profession of belief? You know, because Jesus had talked about being born again. So I was like, well, you Know, if you're born again, that means that at some point you make a decision for Jesus. And is that the point that you enter into the covenant?

And that's.

[00:03:43] Remy: That's fascinating. If. I'm sorry to interrupt, but if I could. Why.

I mean, why is that the conclusion, you know, that if you're born again, it means you must make a decision. And I don't know, maybe it's just my own post Lutheran mind, like, now that I'm like a Luthera...

Today I'm joined by Gage Garlinghouse to discuss his work on Sacred Hours and the Lutheran Sanctoral Calendar.

• Just & Sinner

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[00:00:01] Remy: Hello and welcome to Lutheran Answers. Today I am joined by Mr. Gage Garlinghouse. Gage, how are you, bud?

[00:00:07] Gage: I'm doing well, Remy. How are you?

[00:00:09] Remy: I'm doing well. We know each other because of the aalc. Yeah, yeah. We.

[00:00:16] Gage: To your chagrin.

[00:00:17] Remy: Yeah. We've met at various conferences and conventions. In person, we've hung out.

We have.

Sorry, my cat. We have.

We've had several classes together.

[00:00:32] Gage: Yeah.

[00:00:33] Remy: During which.

[00:00:34] Gage: Your chagrin.

[00:00:35] Remy: Yeah.

[00:00:35] Gage: Well, you're.

[00:00:36] Remy: I was gonna say you're actually not the worst person to have a class with.

[00:00:42] Gage: That's a win. That's a win.

[00:00:44] Remy: Yeah. Yeah. There are others worse, but it's great because I can just kind of springboard. You can be real smart and I can just kind of springboard off of that and look smart, and so that's what I like.

[00:00:55] Gage: Oh, that's unfortunate, because I was hoping this would be the reverse.

[00:00:58] Remy: No, no, no.

The only other thing I really know about you gauge is that you pretend to have a girlfriend on the Internet. So.

[00:01:11] Gage: Hi, Anna.

[00:01:11] Remy: I know you'll listen to this, so tell me.

Yes, that's right. Anna.

Yeah. Really creative, Gage. Good job.

[00:01:24] Gage: Wait until you hear her middle name. It's even less.

[00:01:28] Remy: Is her last name Smith?

[00:01:30] Gage: No, no, her last name is a lot more creative. But her first two names are Anna Marie, which is.

[00:01:37] Remy: Which totally not made up.

[00:01:40] Gage: Oh, she gets so mad. She's like, this is so basic. I sound like a boat.

[00:01:46] Remy: It would be Maria, though, right? It would be Anna. Maria would be a boat.

[00:01:52] Gage: Probably. I don't know. I like. I don't know anything about them.

[00:01:56] Remy: Before we get into it, I do want to say you were instrumental in this.

[00:02:00] Gage: I was. I was.

[00:02:01] Remy: This is great. I love this.

[00:02:03] Gage: I'm so glad.

[00:02:05] Remy: If people don't have this, they need to get this. It's from the old Justin Center. Yeah. Product placement. Wonderful little book. A lot easier.

[00:02:16] Gage: Just so we're clear, we don't get any of the money?

[00:02:18] Remy: No money? No. Jordan keeps all of the money for himself. So, yeah.

[00:02:26] Gage: Justin center totally makes enough money for him to do that.

[00:02:29] Remy: Yeah. Yep. Please don't kill me, Dr. Cooper.

[00:02:33] Gage: So.

Here's what we talked about:

• The Last Boil

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[00:00:03] Cory: I'm about to be in the show.

[00:00:05] Remy: Oh, you're on the show.

[00:00:06] Cory: I'm on the show now. Oh, okay.

[00:00:08] Remy: Wow.

Corey Laughlin from Twitter.

I always said. I always said Laughlin.

[00:00:17] Cory: Everybody does. I get used to that.

[00:00:19] Remy: Sure.

I guess Laughlin would be like. There would be a U and a G H instead of just an F.

[00:00:27] Cory: Yeah, that's what I mean. There are. There are Laughlins out there that are. That are Irish or Scottish descent.

I'm not those.

What are you. What are. Comes from a different. So, dad. So Laughlin comes from, actually French Laflamme.

And before that. Before that, it was.

It was Kemner. Q U E M E N E U R Ken, here's the story, please.

So Papa Urvay or whatever came over from Britain, from the extreme northwest of France, and he moved to Canada, moved to Quebec, and he set up on the Ile D'Orleans in the St. Lawrence Seaway, just north of or just northeast of Quebec City. And he was tired of. As the story goes, he was tired of boats running ashore on the island. It's a pretty big island in the middle of this gigantic river, essentially. And so he started building bonfires to act as kind of an ersatz lighthouse.

And so they started calling him La Flamme. Was French, at least at the time, or maybe still is for bonfire or slang for campfire or bonfire or something like that. And so then it just kind of stuck. And so we've seen actual documents of Louis Kemner D. Leflam, which means that just call D being called being or being said, said, like Leflam. So eventually it just.

It got Anglicized.

They were happy living in Quebec until the Homestead act happened. And then all of a sudden, they ended up. All of a sudden they ended up in Vermont.

Funny how that works. And then made their way down to. Unlike all the cool Acadians and French Canadians, they didn't keep going to go to Louisiana. They stopped in Kansas. And here we are.

So that's Dad's side of the family. Well, that's where the name comes from.

Also has a fair amount of Welsh in there. And Mom's side is 100% German, therefore, you know.

[00:03:03] Remy: Excellent. What are you drinking? What is that?

[00:03:05] Cory: I am drinking spent Oktoberfest. Because it is the last day.

It is the official last day of Oktoberfest, because I believe Oktoberfest runs through the first Sunday in October, if I remember correctly. Not that my mom's family is from northern Germany. In fact, we're going There in December. Um, my mom and my brother and my son and. And my, My niece, we're gonna go visit the. We're gonna go. We're gonna go and. And remind ourselves why we left in the first place.

Why the family left. I suppose.

[00:03:40] Remy: Amazing.

I. I'm drinking Modelo.

[00:03:44] Cory...

Today I'm joined by Lutheran probate attorney Jen Gumble of Organized Afterlife!

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[00:00:00] Remy: This episode of Lutheran Answers is brought to you by our sponsor, Dial A Podcast. Dial A Podcast, proud sponsor of Lutheran Answers, provides a simple yet powerful solution to bring your church's sermons and Bible studies closer to those who might be a step away from the digital world. Getting started with a local telephone number is easy, allowing anyone to listen to your content with just a phone call at their convenience. It's an excellent way for congregations of all size to extend their reach. Get started with a 30 day risk free trial at dialapodcast.com and ensure no one misses out out on your church's messages.

Not the best show in the world, but I just keep it light.

Jen, thanks for conversational. So, yeah, thanks for coming on.

Let's see. I do have show notes here that. See, if I were better at this, I would have the show notes up already.

But we are going to discuss a couple of things. Memento Mori, Vacation as Vocation as a legacy, and anything that we can fit within those topics, including why you're a Lutheran, how these things are distinct in Lutheran theology and practice.

But to get us started off, your thing is organized afterlife. You are a probate attorney, huh?

[00:01:32] Jen: Yep. Probate and estate planning attorney.

And the.

There, there's a couple parts of that where you, I get to kind of see the results of people's lives, you know, on a daily basis.

And then kind of the importance of education, having an estate plan that works.

[00:01:55] Remy: Okay.

[00:01:56] Jen: So that's where the online stuff comes into it. Um, almost. I, I joke with people. There needs to be a Dave Ramsey of death.

[00:02:03] Remy: So that's nice. Oh my gosh. Can you please. That is so great. A Dave Ramsey of death. Can you please? That should be like your whole brand. That's amazing.

[00:02:18] Jen: It's like, it's like I say, I say in three words and everyone gets it. It's so funny.

[00:02:23] Remy: Yeah.

A Dave Ramsey of death. I'm writing that down. There's no particular reason I'm writing that down. I just think that is so great. Oh my gosh. It does, it does encapsulate everything you do. Huh? Because like now I totally get it.

[00:02:40] Jen: Yep.

[00:02:41] Remy: I totally get it. Wow.

Even though you're a probate attorney, how often do your friends and family ask you to go to traffic court for them?

[00:02:50] Jen: I've, I've done it a couple times.

Just probably more recently in my career I've been able to, to really niche down. But for a long time I was a, I was a small town attorney.

[00:03:01] Remy: Oh.

[00:03:01] Jen: And so like, like, I loved estate planning. And probate, but every once in a while, you know, like, I've been a city attorney for some small cities and, you know, traffic court for family, and I was successful.

[00:03:16] Remy: I.

I'm. I'm always amazed. I. It's going to sound like I get tickets all the time. I don't. I've used this guy twice in, like, the last 10 years. But there's this guy in our town, and I don't know. I mean, I assume it's legal because...

This episode of Lutheran Answers features Patrick Flynn, a Catholic philosopher and author, discussing philosophy, theology, and arguments for and against the existence of God. The conversation begins with an exploration of distinctions in theology, such as the Lutheran view of imputed righteousness versus Reformed perspectives, and transitions into the philosophical utility of distinctions, particularly in arguments for God's existence.

Flynn presents Thomas Aquinas' metaphysical arguments, emphasizing the real distinction between essence and existence, which supports a classical theist understanding of God. He explains Aquinas' cosmological argument and the philosophical necessity of a singular, ontologically independent being. They also discuss the problem of evil, both as a challenge to and support for theism, and critique weak arguments for and against God's existence, particularly those rooted in scientific materialism or misrepresentations of philosophical theology.

The episode emphasizes the limits of human comprehension regarding God's nature, advocating for humility and a recognition of divine transcendence. Flynn introduces his book, which systematically compares naturalistic and theistic explanations for reality's metaphysical features, arguing that theism offers simpler, more robust explanations.

• Pat Flynn's X

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Greatest Theology Newsletter on the Planet

[00:00:00] Remy: This episode of Lutheran Answers is brought to you by our sponsor, Dial A Podcast. Dial A Podcast, proud sponsor of Lutheran Answers, provides a simple yet powerful solution to bring your church's sermons and Bible studies closer to those who might be a step away from the digital world. Getting started with a local telephone number is easy, allowing anyone to listen to your content with just a phone call at their convenience. It's an excellent way for congregations of all size to extend their reach. Get started with a 30 day risk free trial at dial a podcast.com and ensure no one misses out out on your church's messages.

I had actually just read a thing today by a Scandinavian Lutheran pastor where he was talking about how a lot of the critiques leveled against Protestantism, generally by Rome and generally by the Orthodox, a lot of their critiques of our soteriology, tend to disappear when you take the tact that God did not impute righteousness to us, that God doesn't impute righteousness to us, because this is a big point of contention between a lot of Protestants and a lot of the other apostolic traditions is the idea of imputed righteousness. And he points out that nowhere, at least on the now on the Presbyterian end and on the Reformed end, the Westminster Confessions do specifically state that God imputes righteousness to people.

But he points out that the Lutheran Confessions do not say this. The Lutheran Confessions say that God imputes faith to people, that God gives us the gift of faith, and then he nurtures that faith and then he counts that faith as righteousness. And like, what an important distinction that is because then we get away from the like, legal fiction theory or whatever where God just pretends you're righteous.

[00:01:59] Patrick: Yes. An...