Welcome to episode ONE HUNDRED of the Jolly Thoughts podcast!!! After starting this thing on a whim nearly 5 years ago, I wouldn’t have suspected it would have gone on for this long. Nor could I ever have anticipated the scope & quality of conversation partners I’ve been blessed with. It’s been a wild ride… and I don’t think it’s over yet.

Rather than look backwards, I’m happy to look forward down the barrel of many great guests ahead… including two great guests on this very 100th episode!

Chris Hoklotubbe & Danny Zacharias are the fabulous coauthors of Reading the Bible on Turtle Island: An Invitation to North American Indigenous Interpretation. This book is a HUMDINGER! I have multiple underlinings on most pages:

“How can I love my neighbor as myself when my theology has taught me to hate myself?” – Matt Leblanc (pg 22)

“The earth, plants, and animals could all survive without us – but we could not survive without them.” (pg 34)

“When the Word incarnated into Jesus, did this not include the water, the carbon, the oxygen, the minerals, and the community of bacteria that live within all human flesh?” (pg 51)

“Indigenous followers of Jesus invite Christians to be more like Abraham than Joshua.” (pg 123)

That said, I also had to wrestle with a lot of the content in here, sometimes because it was difficult to understand, sometimes because it confronted my own complicity & failings, and sometimes because I wasn’t sure it was correct, but (in my experience) things that we wrestle with usually end up being among the things we treasure most.

This book is a blessing, as was this conversation with Chris & Danny.

As always, I would loooooove to hear your own thoughts on this convo!

You can either watch this conversation below or over here on YouTube.

Chapters:

00:00 - Introduction to Indigenous Hermeneutics and Turtle Island

05:54 - The Origins of the Book and the Collaboration of the Authors

08:00 - What is Turtle Island? Its Significance and Meaning

09:38 - Indigenous Interpretation of the Bible and Faith

12:07 - The Medicine Wheel and Wesleyan Quadrilateral in Hermeneutics

15:00 - Reclaiming Biblical Stories and Indigenous Traditions

18:45 - The Role of Visions, Dreams, and Vision Quests

23:41 - The Concept of Sin in First Nations Communities

30:19 - Visions, Altered States, and Cultural Practices

39:02 - The Balance of Seeking and Receiving Visions

43:45 - The Broader Understanding of Visions in Indigenous Contexts

45:58 - The Impact of Cultural and Theological Contexts on Interpretation

50:36 - Barriers in Evangelical and Mainline Christian Approaches

52:33 - Concluding Reflections on Light, Revelation, and Culture

Keywords:

indigenous hermeneutics, Turtle Island, asset-based theology, visions, rituals, First Nations, biblical interpretation, cultural perspectives, spiritual practices

Key topics:

Indigenous hermeneutics and biblical interpretation

The significance of Turtle Island in indigenous worldview

Asset-based theology rooted in Genesis 1 and 2

The role of visions and vision quests in First Nations spirituality

The intersection of indigenous traditions and Christian faith

The importance of relationships and community in interpretation

The critique of Western individualism in spiritual practices

The impact of colonization on indigenous religious expressions

The importance of context and relationality in hermeneutics

The challenge of integrating indigenous and biblical narratives

“Determining what is correct is a science. Truth is reality.” (pg 32 of Statistics & Faith, by Jason Wilson)

Jason Wilson went to university for the math, stayed in university for the Bible, and somehow God seems to have ended up tying these passions together in ways that we can reap the benefits of in his book, Statistics & Faith. In this conversation, Jason patiently allows me to ramble through my half-formed thoughts on the inundation of stats in our world, and he helps me not only understand the nature of stats better, he also helps me see how they can help Christians better understand their world. We talk about measuring the likelihood that a prayer is answered, the dangers of eugenics, why David’s census was such a big deal… it’s a wild ride, so (unless you’re faint of heart), hop in! (if you’d prefer to watch rather than listen, look below or on YouTube)

chapters:

00:00 - Introduction and Personal Background

01:21 - Academic Journey and Dual Degrees

04:25 - Statistics and Faith: The Intersection of Disciplines

07:31 - The Evolution of Statistics

10:39 - Understanding Statistics: Definitions and Applications

13:15 - The Dark History of Eugenics and Statistics

16:29 - The Role of Statistics in Society

19:24 - Engaging with Statistics: Critical Thinking and Application

29:39 - The Role of Statistics in Technology

32:25 - The Impact of Values on Decision Making

35:13 - Statistics Through a Christian Lens

39:45 - Understanding Misuse of Statistics

44:46 - The Intersection of Faith and Statistics

50:04 - Intercessory Prayer and Statistical Analysis

53:58 - The Limitations of Data in Human Experience

keywords:

statistics, faith, data literacy, biblical worldview, truth, eugenics, scientific revolution, data analysis, Christian ethics, information literacy

links:

Jason Wilson - https://www.biola.edu/directory/people/jason-wilson

Statistics & Faith - https://www.ivpress.com/statistics-and-faith

Math Is Music (article) - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/280114347_Math_is_Music_Statistics_is_Literature

“Your true home is a place you have not yet been but have sensed all along…” - Brian Zahnd, from Unseen Existences

Brian Zahnd is no stranger to controversy, but it’s possible at this time that one of the most controversial things he could say is that there is a reality that neither science nor our senses can reliably define; existences that are unseen. This is the very topic of his latest book, and we that book as a launching pad to talk about the impact of Greek and/or Platonic thought on the New Testament, the microtonal rock of Angine de Poitrine, the potential exhaustion of revivalism, and much much more. While listening to the pod, check out Unseen Existences, Brian’s Substack (especially his four-part companion to Unseen Existences, The Reverend), and while you’re at it, bookmark The Silent’s relevant album, Unseen.

To watch instead of just listen, either check it out on YouTube or click below. 👇

Chapters:

00:01 - Introduction and Setting the Scene

06:15 - Brian Zahnd’s Journey and Writing Career

09:12 - The Influence of Music and Pop Culture

14:11 - The Nature of Writing and Content Creation

19:15 - Exploring Heaven and Spirituality

24:23 - Philosophical Materialism and Its Implications

29:14 - Christianity and Platonic Thought

33:12 - Deconstruction vs. Transformation in Faith

37:16 - A Journey Beyond American Christianity

40:27 - Critique of Charismatic Christianity

43:21 - Navigating Political Landscapes in Faith

50:07 - The Exhaustion of Revivalism

57:04 - Living Ordinary Lives in Faith

01:05:03 - Understanding Our True Home

Brian Zahnd - https://brianzahnd.com/

“Unseen Existences” - https://www.amazon.ca/Unseen-Existences-Heaven-Divine-Mystery/dp/1514005646/

Brian’s Substack - https://substack.com/@brianzahnd

“The Reverend” (short story) - https://substack.com/home/post/p-196905954

“Unseen” (by The Silent) -

keywords:

Spirituality, Unseen Realm, Christian Orthodoxy, Culture, Faith, Theology, Book Review, Christian Life

key topics:

The unseen realm and its significance in faith

The influence of culture and pop culture on spirituality

The relationship between materialism and spiritual longing

The role of Christian orthodoxy in contemporary faith

The impact of revivalism and charismatic movements

“Just for a moment

Can we fix our eyes on Jesus?

There is no other reason

We stand and sing these songs”

from Magnify (Just For A Moment) by Paul Baloche

I have not seen the adjective “pastor” attached to Paul Baloche very often, but I can tell you that there are few people I’ve met in the wider world of worship leading who are more pastoral than he. I was blessed to have him on the pod way back in 2022 (episode here), where we talked about…

-crazy online worship leading experiences during Covid

-extremes on the left AND the right within the church

-how we may have gone “far enough” with multitracks

This time around, we talked about..

-his excellent (and about to be revamped book) God Songs (which we’ve been using in class @ Kingswood)

-his journey as a songwriter that led him to write songs for the likes of the late great Ron Kenoly

-the theology of the guitar solo, and how AI may (or may not) be able to worship God

I hope you’ll enjoy the conversation, and if so, I hope you’ll share the love!

(If you prefer to watch than listen 👇)

Chapters:

00:00 - Intro

05:40 - Transition to Faith and Music

06:10 - The Journey to California and Music School

09:27 - Learning from Mentors and Songwriting Beginnings

15:42 - Writing for the Local Church

21:17 - Transitioning to Professional Songwriting

26:42 - Understanding the Congregation’s Needs

31:31 - Updating ‘God Songs’ for a New Generation

34:42 - The Process of Creating a New Album

38:26 - Exploring Belief and Doubt in Worship

40:11 - The Philosophy of Guitar Solos

47:12 - AI and Songwriting: A New Frontier

59:33 - The Importance of Authentic Worship

Resources:

God Songs by Paul Baloche and Jimmy & Carol Owen - https://www.amazon.com/God-Songs-Contemporary-Worship-Book/dp/083412278X

Integrity Music - https://www.integritymusic.com

Christ for the Nations Institute - https://www.cfn.edu

Marty Nystrom - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marty_Nystrom

Guest Links:

Website - https://paulbaloche.com

Twitter - https://twitter.com/paulbaloche

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/paulbaloche/

Keywords:

worship music, songwriting, Paul Baloche, AI in worship, worship leading, song creation, church music, worship songs, music ministry, worship innovation

How did we get from the gospels recording Jesus’ words as “Take, eat, this is my body broken for you” to Youth Pastors offering donuts & Coca Cola as “communion”? How did the primary locus of mystical Christian worship become “just a symbol”? How did the evangelical church get here, and (in the adapted register of The Clash)... should we stay or should we go?

[to watch this video, either scroll down or visit the pod on YouTube]

In his recently defended PhD thesis, my friend & Kingswood co-labourer (and newly minted doctor) Axel Kazadi traced a bit of a history of the eucharist, specifically bringing in a triumvirate of early protestant conversation partners, and then putting those considerations in conversation with John Wesley… and eventually with Wesley’s denominational children, which includes the host of this podcast.

Have I done a geekier, more “theological-dictionary-required” episode than this? I’m honestly not sure… so BUCKLE UP AND ENJOY THE RIDE!

Chapters:

00:00 - Welcome and introduction to the episode’s focus on Eucharistic theology

02:15 - The role of historical debates: transubstantiation, memorialism, and sacramental union

06:45 - The significance of Christ’s presence—material, spiritual, or symbolic

10:22 - Examining the Eucharist as a sacrifice, thanksgiving, and act of almsgiving

15:42 - Influence of the Reformation on Eucharistic doctrine

20:12 - Wesleyan perspectives: how Wesley approached communion and real presence

24:39 - Practical implications: integrating Eucharist into worship and community life

30:45 - Handling mystery and faith: accepting doctrines beyond full human understanding

36:28 - The importance of frequent communion in Wesleyan practice

44:39 - Structuring worship to emphasize the Eucharist’s grace and communal aspect

51:02 - The role of ordination and church authority in administering communion

58:11 - The continuity of Eucharistic tradition from early church to today

63:36 - Encouragement for worship leaders to deepen Eucharistic practice

73:07 - Connecting Eucharist with acts of love and social justice

77:21 - Practical steps for incorporating Eucharist intentionally in services

81:22 - Final thoughts: Eucharist as a celebration of thanksgiving and a corporate act of sacrifice

83:50 - Reflecting on the mystery of Christ’s presence and theological humility

Recommended Resources:

The Life of the World by Alexander Schmemann

Sacramental Theology: Wesleyan Perspectives

Book of Common Prayer

Key Words:

Historical development of Eucharistic theology, including transubstantiation, consubstantiation, memorialism, and sacramental union || The significance of Christ’s real, spiritual, or symbolic presence in the Eucharist || The relationship between Eucharistic sacrifice, thanksgiving, and the church’s outward acts of love (almsgiving) || Practical ways to re-emphasize the Eucharist’s role as a means of grace and a corporate act of worship || Theological reflections on the nature of Christ’s presence and the importance of mystery and faith in Eucharistic understanding || The influence of the Reformation on the diversity of Eucharistic beliefs and Wesleyan practice

“From the beginning, the Israelites were a multi-ethnic family whose most prominent members often married foreigners. Later laws against intermarriage are focused exclusively on protecting Israelite worship rather than trying to maintain the purity of the Israelite bloodline.” (pg 30)

Just one of the many wonderfully provocative snippets that litter Dr Carmen Joy Imes’ third book, Becoming God’s Family: Why the Church Still Matters. But Carmen is not a provocateur. This book (like the others in the trilogy) is aimed squarely at helping us think Biblically about the topic at hand, which in this case is the nature of the “people (or ‘family’) of God”.

Carmen’s last time on the pod (which, wildly enough, was back in May/June 2022, on the day she clicked “send” on the manuscript for her 2nd book, Being God’s Image: Why Creation Still Matters). At that time we talked about her visit to Southeastern, Critical Race Theory, the distinction between gender & sexuality… all the fun stuff. Throughout this new conversation, Dr Imes unpacks the scriptures with acumen & ease, shedding light in dark areas and clarifying my own misunderstandings of the nature of The Church. Hopefully you’ll appreciate it as much as I have!

If you’d prefer to watch rather than just listen…

keywords:

Church, Biblical Theology, Old Testament, New Testament, God’s Covenant, Community, Adoption, Family of God, Eschatology, Christian Life

key topics:

The birth of the church and Acts 2

The Old Testament roots of the church

The significance of God’s covenant and presence

The metaphor of adoption and family in Scripture

The expansive nature of God’s people and inclusion of foreigners

The relationship between vertical (God) and horizontal (people) relationships

The role of the church in social responsibility and justice

The eschatological hope for the end of nations and kingdoms

chapters:

00:00 - Introduction

05:22 - The Importance of Church Community

08:28 - Understanding the Church’s Origins

11:35 - The Role of the Old Testament in Defining the Church

14:28 - Continuity Between the Old and New Testament

17:32 - The Nature of God’s Covenant with His People

20:34 - The Expansive Nature of God’s Family

23:40 - The Dynamics of Church Membership

26:32 - Adoption and Relationships in the Church

31:22 - The Metaphor of Adoption in Faith

33:00 - Living as Children of God

34:50 - Cultural Contexts and Family Systems

36:02 - God’s Wrath and Social Responsibility

43:09 - The Kingdom of God vs. National Identity

52:42 - Women in Ministry and Gender Dynamics

Did Jesus really say He was God?

Belief in Jesus’ divinity is generally held to be a core Christian belief (if you need a refresher on the Nicene Creed, you can check out last year’s conversation with Dr Jerome Van Kuiken), but recent survey data out of the US seems to indicate that roughly 43% of American evangelicals do not necessarily believe He was God… which is mindblowing, yes, but perhaps not entirely surprising, since biblical scholars have been chipping away at the criteria for this case for a long time now. However, it’s also not the question we’re asking here. The question isn’t “Was Jesus God?” or even “Did Jesus’ earliest followers believe He was God?”, but “Did Jesus really say He was God?”

This is the question that apologist, scholar, and doctor Mikel Del Rosario pursues in his new book of the same name. In this ranging conversation, Mikel walks us through the basic claims of his book, some of his journey with apologetics, and what a coffee shop conversation with Bart Ehrman might look like.

Chapters:

00:00 - Intro

05:47 - Understanding Apologetics

09:39 - Engaging with Bart Ehrman’s Perspectives

15:46 - Analyzing Key Biblical Scenes

18:40 - Clash of Authority: Jesus and Jewish Leadership

24:42 - The Authority to Forgive: A Historical Perspective

28:32 - The Trial of Jesus: Claims of Divine Authority

34:26 - Understanding Merism: Authority in Context

41:10 - Faith and Scholarship: Balancing Belief and Critical Inquiry

Keywords: Jesus Christ, Divinity, Mark Gospel, Apologetics, Historical Jesus, Biblical Reliability, Christian Faith, Jesus Claims, Gospel of Mark, Religious History

Resources:

Did Jesus Really Say He Was God? by Mikel Del Rosario || https://www.ivpress.com/did-jesus-really-say-he-was-god

Bart Ehrman’s Book ‘How Jesus Became God’ || https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_Jesus_Became_God

Mikel Del Rosario’s Profile || https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikeldelrosario/

Moody Bible Institute || https://www.moody.edu/academics/faculty/mikel-del-rosario/

-“…despite a relatively high bar for entry, the young church grew rapidly…” (pg 30 of Making Disciples by Alex Fogleman

)

Some churches offer what is sometimes called “spontaneous baptism” (an opportunity for someone to show up on a Sunday morning who had not planned to get baptized to get straight into the water that very morning), while some churches have a 2-3 year waiting period between when a person expresses a desire to be baptized and when they can actually go through the waters. How can we have such a wide range between these criteria? What makes a person “ready” for baptism? Traditionally, the church has called this gap (however wide or narrow) “catechesis”. If you grew up or around the kind of church tradition I did, though, it’s possible this is a term you have never heard.

Good news, though; Alex Fogleman has written a wonderfully accessible and helpful book on the topic! He’s not a stick in the mud, and he doesn’t bog down on terminology, but he’s a helpful conversation partner in the process of coming to grips with how we become (and make) disciples of Jesus Christ in the here & now.

If you find this conversation helpful, please consider checking out Alex’s book, Making Disciples, wherever books are sold… and consider sharing this pod with a friend that came to mind whilst listening!

Alex Fogleman → https://tas.edu/people/dr-alex-fogleman

Making Disciples → https://www.amazon.ca/Making-Disciples-Catechesis-Theology-Practice/dp/0802883850/

Chapters:

00:00 Introduction

03:55 Background of Alex Fogleman

05:10 The Journey to Anglicanism and Catechesis

08:04 The Importance of Discipleship in the Church

11:22 Understanding the Catechumenate

14:18 The Role of Catechesis in Early Christianity

17:16 The Evolution of Catechesis Through the Centuries

20:10 Augustine’s Approach to Teaching and Catechesis

23:18 The Process of Becoming a Catechumen

26:12 The Church’s Role in Education and Inclusivity

29:05 Historical Overview of Catechesis from Early Church to Present

32:31 The Historical Context of Catechesis

38:45 Evangelicalism and the Challenge of Catechesis

43:29 Authentic Christianity: Belief, Behavior, and Experience

51:39 Moral Formation in Contemporary Christianity

59:00 The Role of Catechesis in Modern Faith Practices

Keywords:

catechesis, early church, Christian formation, discipleship, theology, church history, Wesleyan, Anglican, spiritual growth, religious education

“Oversaturation is not the same thing as abundance.” - Alyson Pryor

In this lenten episode of the pod, I am blessed to have been able to have this timely conversation with Alyson Pryor (who holds degrees in psychology from both the University of Southern California and Fuller Theological Seminary, as well as an MA in Spiritual Formation and Soul Care from Talbot Seminary). Alyson currently serves as a staff spiritual director and adjunct faculty member at Biola University, from whence she was able to publish this brand new guide to spiritual retreats, Come Away & Rest. The book is not just an apologetic case for the idea of retreat, but an actual step-by-step guide to said retreats.

I was so grateful to have been able to have access to Alyson’s wisdom for this conversation, and I think you too will appreciate her insights into the good, bad, and ugly of retreating.

BOOK INFO: https://www.ivpress.com/come-away-and-rest

EXCERPT: https://www.ivpress.com/Media/Default/Downloads/Excerpts-and-Samples/A1122-excerpt.pdf

BIO: https://www.ivpress.com/alyson-pryor

VISIT HER WEBSITE: https://alysonpryor.com

Chapters:

00:00 - Opening

03:30 - Alyson’s Journey to Rest

09:10 - Understanding Retreats in a Christian Context

12:12 - Practical Elements of Retreats

18:02 - The Call to Redemption and Personal Worth

20:49 - The Journey of Rest and Intimacy with God

23:40 - Creating Retreats: Structure and Support

25:22 - The Importance of Content in Retreats

28:23 - On-Ramps and Off-Ramps: Preparing for Retreats

34:16 = Lent: A Season of Reflection and Preparation

37:18 - Jesus as Our Model for Retreat and Resilience

keywords: spiritual retreats, Christian practices, rest, Lent, personal growth, silence, solitude, spiritual direction, mindfulness, prayer

(ai) summary: In this episode of the Jolly Thoughts podcast, Marc Jolicoeur and Alyson Pryor discuss the significance of spiritual retreats in the Christian faith, particularly in the context of Lent. They explore Alyson’s personal journey towards finding rest and the importance of creating structured retreats that allow individuals to connect with God. The conversation delves into the challenges of modern life that hinder true rest and the necessity of preparing for and reflecting on retreat experiences. They also highlight Jesus as the ultimate model for retreating and the transformative power of silence and solitude.

In Drunk In The Spirit, Dr Merrill Greene gives us a behind-the-scenes and BANANAS look at the ways that charismaticism is not only lived out today, but is rooted in some truly weird experiences outlined in our holy texts.

I had Merrill on a few years ago (ep 39), and now that this conversation is done, I can’t wait to have him on again! Oh, for reference to the How God Works podcast ep I was referencing on shamanism, it’s right here.

Thanks for reading Marc Jolicoeur (aka Jolly Thoughts)! This post is public so feel free to share it.