Margie Bryce Coaching

What happens when a dedicated discipleship pastor faces the crushing weight of ministry burnout? This episode of the Crabby Pastor podcast brings you another Back from Burnout saga with an eye-opening conversation about pastor health featuring our brave guest, Rob Gaschler, who shares his personal story of navigating the challenging waters of ministry burnout and recovery. From his experience in college ministry and church planting to his current role at Second Baptist Church in Baytown, Texas, Rob opens up about the anxiety and pressures that led to a breaking point. His journey underscores the critical need to seek new paths when necessary.

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Margie: 0:01

Hey there, it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, where we talk about all things sustainability, whether it's sustainability in ministry, in your personal life and we acknowledge that the church is in a transitional time, so we hit topics there too that are going to stretch your mind and the way you lead, especially how you lead yourself, so that you don't become the Crabby Pastor. Hey there, this is Margie Bryce. With the Crabby Pastor podcast. I'm hosting a back from burnout episode. I know these are quite popular. Number one, so we can see that it is possible to come back and we want you to come back because we don't really want to see anybody having to depart ministry early and depart their call early or earlier maybe than was intended.

Margie: 1:07

In some cases, people take a different tack with their ministry, goes in a different direction. Sometimes they come back to pastoral work. It just depends, and I do see God working in all of that, but burnout is in all of that, but burnout is. I don't think that's a path that anybody would necessarily select. Now I think I'll do burnout, no. So I am here today with Rob Gashler and I met Rob at a meeting of the let me see if I can get this right. Society of Professors in Christian Ministry. We had a conference not that long ago and I met him there and he volunteered. I'm always excited when people will volunteer to do these Back from Burnouts and so far it's been all male. So ladies just saying that have been willing to come and share in the hopes of either encouraging or instructing us and helping us navigate ministry well. So, rob, could you introduce yourself to our audience?

Rob: 2:15

Sure, thank you for having me on. I appreciate the opportunity to tell my story, and my name is Rob and I am the discipleship pastor at Second Baptist Church in Baytown, texas, and I've only been here for six months and moved here after living most of my life in Arizona.

Margie: 2:35

Okay, Arizona. And then you moved to where again?

Rob: 2:39

Baytown, Texas. It's east of Houston. It's a refinery community.

Margie: 2:44

Oh, okay, all right, it's still hot climate, not hot. You went from one hot climate, so tell us, is it better if it's not a dry heat?

Rob: 2:56

You know, the humidity is everything they say. So I grew up in the dry heat. I would take the dry heat over this humidity any day. Yeah, yes, yes, and I've always up in the dry heat. I would take the dry heat over this humidity any day.

Margie: 3:05

Yeah, yes, yes, and I've always lived in the humid climate. So tell me then what kind of ministry role you were serving in when you started to meander towards burnout.

Rob: 3:23

I think it may have really started. I started doing college ministry. I did college ministry for almost a decade and I was in a church setting that had a lot of programming, a lot of schedule, you know, multiple services on the weekend, and I began to feel it there a little bit. But I had not yet learned how to protect myself or really be disciplined in my spiritual habits to practice Sabbath rest or spend real quality time with God. And I went from that into church planting and so that's a whole nother animal of a one-man show, building a vision, recruiting a team of a one-man show, building a vision, recruiting a team, raising financial support and trying to make a church go and developing the vision and strategy. All the systems plus preach every Sunday, and always trying to engage the community.

Rob: 4:17

And I'm just the type of person I'm certainly an anxious Christian and I deal with anxiety and there's always that pressure of man have I done enough today? Have I engaged enough people? Have I met enough new contacts? Are we doing the right things? Are we going the right direction? So my brain would never turn off as a church planter. And so it was just one thing after another trying to drive this thing along, and so that's really where I ended up clearly realizing I was burned out, but I also didn't realize to what extent burnout runs or to what extent we have to take measures to recover from it, until I began to research it.

Margie: 4:59

Yeah, and you said something that kind of caught my attention that you were an anxious Christian. I mean, is there such a thing?

Rob: 5:08

Yeah, well, you know, there's a book called the Anxious Christian by a marriage and family therapist, rhett Smith, and I went to college with him and it's a good book. He recounts his own personal story throughout the book and I realized, man, that's what I deal with and just, I'm a shepherd. And then when I shepherd people I worry about their well-being and I worry about how we're doing things. And in college ministry too well, and church planting, I always say I don't care how pious we pretend to be, you cannot escape the comparison trap in ministry as a church planter, a college minister, because there's always someone doing it better and that's just hard.

Margie: 5:57

Yeah, it is. It is, and I'm glad you identified some of the complexities of church planting. I mean, you do have a team usually have some kind of launch team but at the same time there are such a myriad of tasks that are required of you, and all the while you are also shepherding and doing the regular Sunday worship work as well, so it's a lot.

Rob: 6:27

Yeah.Margie: 6:28

Absolutely so when did you start thinking that there might be a problem?Rob: 6:36

I began to be increasingly concerned, I would say early in 2019. And I began to search for some other ministry opportunities.

Margie: 6:47

The exit ramp.

Rob: 6:49

Yes, the exit ramp out of church planting. But I also had this strong I'm a high level of responsibility kind of person If I commit to do something, I'm going to see it through. If I commit to a group of people, I'm going to be committed to them, and my church plant had a dynamic little church family, and so I couldn't on one side I couldn't imagine leaving them, but on the other side I felt like I needed to get out. So I began exploring other opportunities but kept pressing on. In 2019, in the summer, we went to the Purpose Driven Church Conference. I took three of my leaders. They got very excited for the future, of what we could do. I got excited that I had some other people excited. But then we moved into 2020 and, of course, then COVID hit. We were in the middle of a campaign as a church to engage our community and then that all got shut down. And so I just remember when we went home and we were forced to stay home for two weeks.

Rob: 7:50

Two weeks yeah, which then turned into yeah, two more weeks. In Arizona, we were shut down for a month, but after that we were given some liberty to open back up.

Rob: 8:01

But I remember watching my other pastor friends scramble to get online and, you know, do things online and move digitally and I'm just sitting there thinking I didn't care so much to do that, didn't have the energy to do that and had some good downtime to rest, to reflect, to spend time with God. And our community was so small we still were connecting at each other's home a little bit. For those first two weeks we were just on Zoom. But then I started to do a service not a service, but just a video, a live feed, just a sermon for four weeks. And so I just knew then for sure that there was a burnout issue. So I actually invited our small congregation into the conversation about the possibility that I needed to move on and they wanted to support me in that, and so that's where that began.

Margie: 8:58

So then, what were the indicators that you, besides looking for the exit ramp, you know, I've heard of pastors Googling. You know, what else can I do with an MDiv, you know? And so that's when you're kind of, and that is an indicator, when you start thinking a lot and it starts to grow about what else could I be doing here? Maybe I'd rather go work in the cafeteria in the high school or be a greeter at Walmart or something.

Rob: 9:28

That's the thing. When I realized I wasn't concerned about scrambling to get online or check on our people, I just felt like I was drained. I didn't have anything left to give. There was definitely in the Maslach burnout inventory. Now that I know what it is, understanding the depersonalization concept of how I just detached. I was emotionally exhausted, I detached from the work and so I did begin to think what else could I do out there?Rob: 10:01

But I didn't jump out of ministry altogether at that point. I moved back into college ministry. It allowed me to focus again in a very specific area of ministry on a university campus and back at the University of Arizona. So I was there for the COVID year that they weren't meeting on campus, and then the year they opened back up on campus. But even still, I just didn't have the drive that I used to have for ministry. And so from there I began to really explore exiting the ministry and I actually did for two years as far as paid ministry and started to go into parks and recreation staff and I had been a realtor all my adult life, so I was doing that on the side as well.

Margie: 10:49

Okay, so you had a semi-exit ramp kind of experience. So then you started to troll and learn more about burnout. What kind of help and remedy did you seek out?

Rob: 11:05

Yeah, I ended up writing a research paper for a PhD seminar on ministry burnout, and at that point I realized, for one, there had been plenty of research already on pastors and ministry burnout.Rob: 11:14

And at that point I realized, for one, there had been plenty of research already on pastors and ministry burnout.

Rob: 11:18

And then discovered some quality resources to learn how to cultivate the common theme of the research that's out there has been, that the spiritual health and spiritual vitality of the minister is key to preventing ministry burnout, and so discovering some tools and resources to guard and cultivate Sabbath rest, and then also to cultivate your own spiritual walk, with time in the word, time in prayer and then a balanced schedule. And then from there, as I began to actually jump into my actual dissertation research, which ended up being on the same topic, a newer book came out called the burnout challenge and looking at the relationship of people with their work and identifying that the workplace and the organization structure is at play also and as much at fault. It's not just the individual, so just the individual. We've often treated them as the dysfunctional person who needs to get it back together and get back in the workforce, whereas the organization itself can play a lot into someone. It could be what Christine Maslach calls a burnout factory, so it just produces burned out workers.

Margie: 12:32

Mm-hmm yeah, unhealthy environment. A lot of our ministries do that burnout factory, so it just produces burned out workers.

Rob: 12:34

Yeah, unhealthy environment. A lot of our ministries do that.

Margie: 12:36

Sure, sure and certainly we expect that our ministry leaders are connected to Christ spiritually. We expect that peace. And then you mentioned the balanced work life. I mean, I think some of that also dovetails in with the piece that I like to attend to, and that is that just because you're spiritual doesn't mean that you don't need to attend to the physical and the mental and the emotional. What kind of help did you find on those topics?

Rob: 13:18

of help did you find on those topics? I think well, one. I think one key one that stands out to me was as I began to research one of my colleagues in the PhD program I was in highly recommended Pastor Wayne Cordero's book Leading on Empty, and when I read that it was so helpful to understand the depth of burnout and the time that it takes to heal and I just felt like as I read it, it gave me a roadmap to rediscover my more intimate walk with Christ, but also to allow me to be patient, to take the time to recover as well, to take the time to recover as well.

Margie: 13:51

Yes, because I like to use, you know, do a hat tip to the area where I'm from, which is Detroit, and say you know you wouldn't treat your car the way that you treat yourself, your body. This is the vehicle God has given to you to function on the planet and a piece of that is living into your call. But if you had a car and you never, ever changed the oil, you never ever washed it, you never ever did any kind of maintenance. And then, especially my personal favorite, is when the car starts making really bad noises, you turn the radio up, and I think that's some of what ministry leaders sort of do, is don't attend to some issues as they arise. Is that fair?

Rob: 14:46

Yeah, certainly, and I think we just keep pressing on and we think, well, I just need a day off. I think that's one of the biggest misconceptions as well If I just take some time off, if I just take a few days off, but then to realize, even even to look at the concept of sabbatical, to take time off after experiencing burnout, you you've got to have several days just to unwind and disconnect from the workload and all the concerns and anxiety of the ministry before you can start to feel like you can rest. And so I even questioned the setting I'm in now has a very good balance, work-life balance. They really promote it, but the sabbatical they'll offer is a one-month sabbatical, and I had questioned that because, again, you need a week just to get disconnected from the work before you can learn to actually rest, and so that needs to be a longer process.

Margie: 15:46

So what were some of the steps that you took? To mitigate, not mitigate, that's not even the right, but just to work yourself out of burnout.

Rob: 15:58

Through it I would say I was doing Bible reading and prayer, but it wasn't focused or wasn't quality. I hadn't learned to quiet my mind, to just sit in the presence of God. So while I was back in Tucson doing college ministry, I began to put some of that back in place just some good quality quiet time, basically, and then moving on from there. Then, when I moved into working in the secular world, so to speak, with Parks and Rec, I had to learn how to do that now, not as a pastor who could do it as part of my daily work, but to actually spend time with God as a lay person, so to speak, for a couple of years, and so just redevelop the quality to my quiet time of being able to just sit in his presence, read the word, pray, and then even there's an element in ministry of, I'd say, just telling yourself the truth.

Rob: 16:54

So telling yourself, okay, I'm off today, I do not need to worry about the ministry obligations, I don't need to check my email and again, in the setting I'm in now, there's no expectation to check anything work-related on a day off, and they're very good about staff guarding other staffs If they take a personal day or vacation day that they don't contact. They don't try to contact the person who's off. We try to resolve it without them. So I think that's really helpful on the organization side. But for me personally, it was the learning to cultivate a better time with God and telling myself, when it was okay, to not worry about work, disconnect, take the day off and actually rest.

Margie: 17:38

Yeah, because I think scripture is pretty clear about do not worry, especially for tomorrow. Today has its own troubles and don't be anxious for anything. Anxious for anything and I think that there's a lot of North American productivity mindset that kind of filters in on, especially like church planting, something like that, where you've got to make it happen instead of following God and allow God to let it happen. God and allow God to let it happen. And I think that's a different mindset and one of the ways anyway that ministry leaders can get trapped.

Rob: 18:23

Yeah, and I think too. We have to be honest with ourselves. My ego could have said well, now that I've been the senior pastor of a church plant, I must seek out a senior pastorship. But I knew from my experience and knowing who I am, I thrived in support roles.

Rob: 18:38

And so I made a commitment to move back to a support role, and that's why first I went back into college ministry as an associate pastor and campus minister and then, even now, to come here and be the discipleship pastor. I have no interest in climbing the ladder or becoming the senior pastor. My desire is to serve in a support role and be a great support role for the rest of my career.

Margie: 19:04

And there's something to be said about number one the self-awareness that you have raised here, but also when you said that you have raised here, but also when you said I'm not climbing the ladder and frequently that's climbing the ladder over other people to get there, which is what Paul in Philippians 2 says. I don't want you climbing over other people to get where you need to go. That kind of competition is actually the polar opposite of humility.

Rob: 19:35

Right.

Margie: 19:37

Which is you know a whole. That's a whole nother like I think. You raised earlier the issue of competition among ministry leaders, even though that's not something we talk about

.Rob: 19:49

Yeah.

Margie: 19:50

A lot? All right, Not at all, but anyway. I remember sitting in a group of pastors and they said this is probably a well-known fact among ministry colleagues that we get together and kind of crank about things. Has that been your experience.

Rob: 20:09

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Margie: 20:11

Yeah, we don't like to admit that. I was second career in the ministry so this was a real eye-opener for me. But I'll never forget the one time they said let's go around the room and everybody say something positive, so we're not just sitting here complaining. So we got halfway around the room and this one ministry colleague says well, we just completed our $1 million addition. And I was thinking, dude you didn't have to say the number.

Margie: 20:39

Most of the pastors sitting here don't even have facilities that had that kind of price tag on it, so it's there. Sometimes it's unintentional or the person isn't tapped into. Maybe I ought not to say that number and the competition's there.

Rob: 20:59

Right. It's almost like it gets ingrained in us over time because those pastor fellowships conversations go that direction all the time.

Margie: 21:10

Yeah, I don't know if that's an unknown fact for our listeners or not, but anyway, moving on here. So you found, at some point, then, a better environment in which to work, an environment that valued, and this is what I so appreciate from the millennials and youngers. They seem to have a better concept or desire toward the work-life balance. Maybe they watched their parents go great guns and said, well, I'm not doing that, but you found an environment that is very supportive of that. How does your life and your pace in ministry look different now compared to earlier years, when you were headed on the burnout path?

ob: 21:57

I know I used to feel guilty if I wasn't. You know, I always felt like, am I doing enough? Did I get enough done? And would never turn off the work mindset on my day off, whereas now I certainly feel totally comfortable, I have a clear conscience to take my day off or days off and not be troubled by the work obligations of ministry. So that's a big part of it. Yesterday I took a day off and my supervisor had to contact me with a question, and it was very apologetic for even contacting me, but it was. We had to answer the question. It was important.

Rob: 22:36

So, but that's the key thing is being having a clear conscious to turn off the work mindset on days off to rest and just enjoy, just enjoy being me. And there were years too in ministry and I know many struggle with this where your identity gets so wrapped up in who you are in ministry that you lose sight of being you. And so I remember one time friends had said you know you were, you kind of got lost in being Rob the student minister. We're, we're glad to have just Rob back and so so getting in touch with yourself to be or just to enjoy being you, the person that God made you and called you to be and enjoying his presence.

Margie: 23:21

Why do you think ministry leaders do that Sacrifice themselves in that way?

Rob: 23:28

Yeah, you know that's a good question and I'm not sure I'm to the heart of the issue. I do think I don't know. I mean, we're all fallen human beings, so we all have insecurities to some degree. But I wonder if it's the kind of people that are called to ministry are also wired a certain way that we give our all to our work and then we get enmeshed emotionally in it and can't detach from it, yeah, yeah, and then going along with that.

Margie: 24:03

Then is the feeling guilty, and I remember feeling that way when I would go to the gym. I felt like, oh no, I should be attending to my massive to-do list. I'm slacking here, when in reality, what I was doing was a good thing for me and for my health, so that I could keep going.

Rob: 24:28

Yeah, that's true, and you mentioned going to the gym. That I used to. Not, I used to try to run, but then I, when I did join a gym, that was totally new to me, but now that's a key part of my personal well-being is I really guard my workout time and I don't. I don't answer, I don't try to take calls or texts at the time that I'm working out, and because that's just truly my time to take calls or texts at the time that I'm working out, and because that's just truly my time to take care of myself, decompress, and so that's an important element as well.

Margie: 24:59

Yeah, absolutely. Any other newer well-being choices you've made.

Rob: 25:08

Nothing beyond that.

Rob: 25:09

The quality quiet time, the disconnecting on my day off with a clear conscience, and the physical fitness, I think have been all key elements.

Rob: 25:20

Well, I guess I would say too, I was always the type to I want to do more and I want to do it fast.

Rob: 25:24

I want to see everything get accomplished and I want to see us move into every ministry opportunity that we can. But I'm realizing now that I can't do everything, and as I get older I slow down a little bit, and so even in the setting I'm in now, I still have a heart to see young adults reached in our community, and so I did start a young adult small group, and that's somewhat beyond my. It's not in my job description, so to speak, but it's on my heart. But I don't want to get stuck to where we grow, something like where it needs a weekly large group meeting and I have to plan a talk every week and that kind of stuff. It would be how do we get the young adults to create a movement where I'm not the young adults pastor, so to speak, because I have a full plate as the adult discipleship pastor, so I'm more guarded now to say you know what? That's not, I can't take that on. I can't take any more on, and it's okay if I say no.

Margie: 26:26

That's. I mean that's huge. Okay To say no.

Rob: 26:30

Yeah.

Margie: 26:30

I mean, I think, when it comes to ministry, many pastors feel like saying no is just like saying no to God, even though it might be something that is more than what they really can take and more than too much to have on one person's plate.

Margie: 26:53

Yeah right and more than too much to have on one person's plate. Yeah right, how did you deal then with the expectations of people? I mean, it sounded like your church planter group got it. They understood Mm-hmm, but did you ever have to deal with other people's expectations of you, either then, when you were in the throes of burnout, or now?

Rob: 27:17

I'd say maybe in the church planning circle I was in and the network that we were in, there were competing views.

Rob: 27:25

Fortunately, the pastor of my sponsoring church and I and our specific our direct report, so to speak, in our association of churches, we were on the same page, but the leadership that came from our state denomination were not on the same page as us, and so there was a little bit of tension there, and so that was hard to a little bit hard to navigate, and so that was, that was hard to a little bit hard to navigate. So then you felt like, well, I'm not performing to expectations on one side, but I think I am on the other side. And then, and then of course in time, we had people leave. You know, they wanted to see certain things take place in our little ministry, but it wasn't happening, and so they went somewhere where it was. So then you feel frustrated and defeated, thinking, well, why wouldn't?

Rob: 28:13

I thought you were committed to help us grow this here, why don't you help make it happen here? But instead they just checked out to go somewhere else and so had to let them go. But you get discouraged. So there's that discouragement as well.

Margie: 28:29

Yeah, yeah. The fish are always jumping from tank to tank.

Rob: 28:33

Yeah, yeah, so I think it's kind of a whole whole. Nother conversation for another arena, but church planting. I think that when church planters burn out or struggle and the thing doesn't go, there's a lot of grief in in that, like you, you went down a dead end or you failed in ministry. So, even though everyone thought what we did was for that season and God was in it, it was fruitful, it was great, we ended on a positive note. But me, as the senior leader, can't help but feel like I failed. And so there's no at least in the circle I was in, there was no after debrief or triage support for a church planter in that case, and I wonder if anyone's dealing with that anywhere.

Margie: 29:24

Yeah, that's a good point. That was, I think, somewhat the beginning for me of a compassion for ministry leaders, when I saw church planters and at the time parachute drops were the thing.

Margie: 29:39

This is a number of years ago, even though we know today that their chance of survival is pretty small compared to some other models. But yeah, I saw church planters fail and it was almost like they, you know, they threw them out in the water from from the pier and said, hey, can you swim? After they threw them out and then, when they couldn't swim, you know it was like who's calling them out and helping them walk through the failure, the sense of failure that they feel. And of course, you know God doesn't waste anything. And you learn. You say what did we learn from that? Okay, it didn't work out how we expected. What can we learn? And but I saw, I felt like they were too easily discarded and then they move on to the next thing and then, when one takes, there's a whole lot of back slapping. That goes on. Hey, hey, hey.

Margie: 30:39

This is amazing so then there's that comparison trap again I know, I know, you know, and I guess that's a rather crass renditioning of what has happened, but I'm just, you know, I'm saying what I perceived and how I felt, just a great sense of sadness on their behalf. So hopefully somebody has taken that mantle up. So if you were to talk to your younger self prior to burnout, what are the top couple of things that you would say, not only to yourself, but then also as a way of offering that to our friends who are listening?

Rob: 31:20

Yeah, I think I would certainly say slow down and cultivate a quality quiet time with God. And then the other thing and I've reflected on this before is I was, as a young adult, I was busy too. I was growing this booming college ministry and as a young professional, I often would forfeit time to hang out with our young professionals group that I was a part of, and I look back now and I regret not. You know, of course, with social media we stay somewhat connected, but I realized I missed out on developing some key relationships and being present with some people that were really meaningful in my life, and so I think the other part is being present with people.

Margie: 32:00

Yes, yes, do not do this journey alone. For any of us, whether you're a lay person, whether you're a ministry leader, whether it's friends, accountability group, a coach, a mentor, something just don't be doing this alone. It's just. I think we're meant to acknowledge the gifts that other people are to us in our lives, are to us in our lives. Well, thank you so much for what you brought here today to the conversation about burnout, and I would like to ask you from.

Rob: 32:51

Yeah, certainly I like to protect my time or what I want to do. So, even though I always point out all of Jesus's ministry was out of an interruption and we need to allow interruptions and margin in our lives for ministry, I certainly still get crabby when I feel like people have imposed on my time and corrupted me.

Margie: 33:17

Oh well, thank you. Thank you for offering that, and I'd like to ask that question because it's just kind of a I don't know reality check that ministry leaders get crabby too. You know because we are people, right, right. Well, thank you so much for being on the Crabby Pastor podcast and sharing your burnout story in the spirit of may it be helpful for someone else and may God redeem this too.

Rob: 33:47

Thank you.

Margie: 33:52

So how do the pieces of your life fit together? Do they fit together well and things are humming along just fine, or are there some pieces that are tight or absent or just not fitting the bill? This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series, where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, which is a form of self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create, and there's a nifty, nifty analogy. Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about, so I'd love for you to join me. To do that, to opt in, I'll need you to email me at crabbypastor at gmailcom. That's crabbypastor at gmailcom. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this. So make a plan to join me in the glass workshop.

Margie: 35:19

Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout? Maybe? I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebryce dot com that's B-R-Y-C-E MargieBryce dot com, and it is a burnout questionnaire, free for you to download, and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it and that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I ask that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebricecom. It's on the homepage of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.

Margie: 36:57

Hey friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook I make stained glass as part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can buy me a cup of coffee thing in the show notes but I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders.

Margie: 37:55

Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the Crabby Pastor. Thank you.

Join my discussion with guest Dr. Andrew Root, author of "When Church Stops Working." Together, we dissect how the relentless drive for growth impacts pastoral health which then leads to burnout and and the threat of early departure from ministry. Discover how pursuing resonance over acceleration can breathe new life into our spiritual communities. 

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Margie: 0:01

Hey there, it's Margie Bryce, your host of CrPastor Pastor podcast, where we talk about all things sustainability, whether it's sustainability in ministry, in your personal life and we acknowledge that the church is in a transitional time, so we hit topics there too that are going to stretch your mind and the way you lead, especially how you lead yourself, so that you don't become the crabby pastor. Hey there, this is Margie Bryce with the Crabby Pastor Podcast, and I have a guest here today that I heard speak recently at the streaming conference at Rochester Christian University recently, and before then I had gotten his book and trolled through it. It's called when Church Stops Working. Now, this really doesn't have a lot to do with the functionality of your church. Exactly, Sort of the subtitle is A Future for your Congregation Beyond More Money, Programs and Innovation.Margie: 1:24

So I have Andrew Root here, Dr Andrew Root here with me, and we are going to talk about his book. The contents and some of the things that I think are definitely tie in with your self-care and your sustainability in ministry as you seek to live into God's call for you and as you serve the people God has given to you to serve.Andy: 1:54

Sure, well, first, thanks for having me. It's great to be on here.Andy: 1:56

Well, as you're talking to me, I'm in St Paul, Minnesota, so I live in the Twin Cities and I teach at Luther Seminary here. I've been on the faculty of Luther for almost 20 years. This is my 20th academic year, so I don't know where time has gone, but it has gone somewhere over these last nearly two decades. But yeah, I have written for the last 20 years or so on really the practice of ministry and thinking about it theologically but trying to kind of lace together the philosophical elements, the theological elements, and then the practical elements of the practice of ministry really. So I've written for youth pastors and thought about youth ministry law, but then also thought about pastoral practice and congregational life.Andy: 2:37

And my project the last gosh, maybe seven years or so has been really writing on ministry in a secular age, and so I have multiple books kind of addressing that. And in this book that you kindly referenced is a kind of well, I mean a synthesis of a lot of those thicker books, a book that's trying to distill some of the major ideas, and I had a lot of pastors who read those books, were kind enough to read those books, and then wanted to take some of those ideas into church councils and broader conversations across the congregation and just needed a little bit thinner synthesis of those ideas. And so that's where when Church Stopped Working comes from, and so, yeah, really happy to talk about it today.Margie: 3:22

Sure, so is this like the cliff notes of all your big volumes?Andy: 3:29

Well, kind of sort of. I mean, in some ways it is sort of the cliff notes of it. I'll say this it's stripped of a lot of the footnotes.Andy: 3:39

I happen to be addicted to footnotes and anyone who's read my other work knows that there's always a ton of footnotes at the bottom of each page and so it's getting rid of that. And yeah, cliff notes maybe. Yeah, I guess sort of I I don't want to, I don't know. I don't know how people feel about cliff notes, like, if it's no, no, I mean, that's how I use cliff notes in high school is it was a way to keep me from actually. Yeah, was it cheating? I don't know if it was cheating, but it was the lazy person's way out.Margie: 4:13

So I don't think the book is bad for folks. All right, all right, all right. I stand corrected?Andy: 4:19

Well, no, I think that's fair in the sense that is a distilling a more kind of direct kind of articulation of the big points.Margie: 4:26

So I guess at that level it's cliff notes, yeah.Margie: 4:33

Okay, so all right, what I wanted to say I'd just start out. Having listened to your presentation at the conference recently, I mean you really articulated well our current situation in the church, that we are really swimming. This is my distillation of what you said. We're swimming in thick soup for sure, Because I listened to what you said and I thought surely this is a very transitional time for the church, big C, and trying to figure out what next steps and I know we're in a secular age, I know where some people freak out when you say post-Christianity in this culture. But what you presented about acceleration was I came away thinking, oh my gosh, we're in worse shape than what I thought, and maybe some of that's from hanging in the Christian bubble, I don't know. But talk to us some about the acceleration.Andy: 5:40

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I think that it would be crazy and your listeners would probably think I was crazy if I were to say we're not in a crisis like that, everything's fine. It's true, we are in a crisis, but I think my larger point is well, I mean, maybe this is just common when you're in a crisis, it's hard to really know what's going on. You know, like the crisis of a car accident, you're like what happened? What hit me? You know, you feel a kind of a deep sense of disequilibrium in the midst of the crisis, and so it's not uncommon for us to feel very dizzy that we're in this crisis, and I think that leads us to misinterpret what the crisis is, and we tend to think the crisis is that we've lost people, that there are fewer people, therefore there are fewer dollars, there are fewer resources, that everything is declining, and I do think that you would have to be pretty naive or have your head in the sand and not recognize that that's a fact. You know, like our institutions are weaker, but I don't know that that's the heart of the issue.Andy: 6:43

I think what the crisis is is that it becomes much more difficult to talk about a living God in this cultural context. And what makes that much more difficult is not even that people deny it or there's this incredible wave of kind of a militant atheism going on. I just think that a lot of people, the way their lives are organized, they don't even and this gets the acceleration point don't even have time to really stop and think about whether there's a deep metaphysical reality at the center of the universe or whether you know there's the living God of Israel could still speak and move. I mean, if they get themselves into a religious space, they may do that, or if they're thrust into deep levels of grief, they may at times feel God calling for them, but in the kind of day to day before the deep interruption, god as a living reality becomes harder for people to hold on to. So one of the dynamics that plays out within this, or one of the realities that makes it possible and I think I said this to the group at the event you were at that this is a weird kind of time, because you can hear people say things at coffee shops like you know, I'm taking a break from God for a while, you know like or you can hear pastors people have gone through seminary and ministry training and they'll say you know, I just left this position and I just think I really need just to take a break from God for a while and, you know, just figure out what's going on.Andy: 8:06

And I think that makes sense to us. Oddly, I think that that makes a lot of sense to us, that, oh yeah, that that seems coherent, that seems culturally coherent. And yet my point is, historically, if a medieval person would hear us say that, they would think we're saying up is down and down is up.Andy: 8:21

or you know that you could take a break from breathing, that you just couldn't do that. So what allows that possibility that across our cultural reality, people could perceive that they could forget about God or they could decide to take a break from God and then their lives could go on?Andy: 8:38

And one of the dynamics that allows for that, I think in that eclipsing of the sense that there is a divine actor in the world, is the way that the modern project continues to speed us up and ask us to go faster and faster, for multiple different reasons that asks us to do this, but this just imposes this kind of sense where we don't even have time to reflect on what's the meaning of life or what's the point of my existence.Andy: 9:04

You just got to get on from one thing to the next. And we tend to feel like we really have to do that because the winning strategy and the sense that we have to win has the sense of trying to do more with less, trying to try to extract more value out of our actions, and it does lead to this kind of what I've called a time sickness, where we feel like the kind of transcendent qualities of life aren't there. Or the great social theorist Max Weber, who talks about the disenchantment of the Western modern world. Well, part of the way that this world becomes disenchanted is we become so fast within it and the acceleration becomes so all out that we don't even have time to reflect on the deeper, more, more kind of even mystical realities that exist within our world. And who's got time for mystery?Margie: 9:53

You know, you just yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, well, you know. And then one point you were talking about feeling like we're in crisis, and I would say too that you know, as the sense of crisis and your anxiety goes up along with that, you know the thinking department definitely shuts down, which is really less than helpful, and you're describing us operating on a scarcity mindset and feeling under the gun. Meanwhile, I've also read a lot in magazines like the Atlantic and places. People are not having children today because there's no meaning to life, and I thought, oh my goodness of all things, the birth rate is declining because people don't have a sense of meaning in their lives, but yet they have cut themselves off from the very place where meaning is given out.Andy: 10:55

Yeah, I mean it's very dystopian in some sense that people feel like the future is so bleak broadly, like the future is so bleak broadly that and then I think they I think it's a dual thing, that they feel like the future is so bleak that there's not much meaning, but also their lives don't feel like there's there's much meaning within it. So why would you want to share that meaning with someone else, or that meaninglessness with with someone else? Hence the reason not to have have children. I mean, it is a. It is a very interesting dynamic that you lose the sense of trying to give life to something else when you feel too exhausted. I don't know. It's an odd kind of moment that we're in that you need to somehow breathe in the goodness of life, to want to pass it on.Andy: 11:42

And yeah, what does that mean? I mean, we've thought about this. My wife and I have thought a great deal about this. We have two budding young adults, a 20-year-old and a 17-year-old, and there used to be the presumption that your kids would have you would have grandkids. That was a pretty good bet, and now it's not. You know it's. Who knows if that will will have that opportunity or not have that opportunity and, yeah, it's fascinating that that this younger generation is making, making that choice out of senses of great despair, but also out of competitive advantage, and I think we miss that either, like you know, you may have competitive advantage to succeed, or to harvest all the resources that will make your life meaningful.Andy: 12:28

or the experiences. Can you really experience the fullness of life, like all the trips and all the parties and all those experiences, if you're tied to a child child you know, like how can you really, in this odd way, how can you really suck the marrow out of life if you have to give all your money and all your attention to, to someone else, though there have been deep traditions that that that's exactly where you find the good life, you know yeah, that's where.Margie: 12:57

Yeah, you certainly come away with a different focus and appreciation, like a focus like oh, it's not all about me, you know when, if it is all about you, you know, like.Andy: 13:10

If that's the only way to find meaning, no wonder we have a generation. That's just like. I don't think that I want to have kids. First of all, maybe the earth is going to implode ecologically and secondly, it's got to be all about me, you know like, and that doesn't work.Margie: 13:28

So well, I was looking through your book and talking about the acceleration and how that even impacts the church, the sense of you know you got to keep running on the hamster wheel to keep all the programs and everything going all the time.Margie: 13:47

And that's an area of compassion for me where I just look at ministry leaders, having been one for a number of years myself and thinking about the acceleration and the sense of it's never broadly stated as competition, although I did sit in a meeting once among pastors and they said, oh, we always gripe this is a well-known phenomenon among clergy we always gripe about stuff, but let's start the meeting out this time and let's share something good that's going on.Margie: 14:24

So we go around the room, we get this one guy and he says you know, well, I'm just thanking God for the million dollar expansion that we just did. And I just was like, okay, you would have been good, but you didn't have to say the number. And so there is, you know, some competitiveness and some churches deal with, you know, the mega church down the corner or down the street or whatever, and and just trying, feeling like you're doing everything you can to keep your head above water. And that's where in your book you started talking about a different way of doing church. You want to start us off with some of that.Andy: 15:07

Yeah Well, I think that you're really right that there is a deep, whether we want it or not, there's a deep level of competition that plays in and maybe sometimes that always is in fronted. But we kind of feel like I think pastors feel a lot like if things go wrong with their church it's their fault and so when someone else just says we did, like you're saying, a million dollar capital campaign, the reflex response is we could never do that or I couldn't pull that off, and therefore that person's in a better spot. And I think part of it is that that competition is just there. But one of the things I don't think we've taken enough consideration in is that, you know, part of this has been with us for a long time, but there was a lot of well, there was a lot of growth available. You know like, especially in the middle of the 20th century, people could there was still probably competition, but you could succeed, you could have your church grow. But now I think we're at a time for different economic reasons, that's probably a much longer story where there's not a ton of growth out there. And when there's not a lot of growth out there, then you enter into a much more competitive situation and growth becomes, oddly, the main measure of value. Like, how are you growing your congregation, whether that's financially, I mean there's some sense. You have to grow the capital and it leads to competition. But really what I think makes that competition I mean there's a sense of who's best that makes it intense that competition. I mean there's a sense of who's best that makes it intense. But the other level is that if you fail, it's not even about you not making your church into a mega church or something. It's about you fall right off the hamster wheel, right off the treadmill. So part of it is you have to run faster and faster just to stay in the same place.Andy: 16:53

Like the inertia of the whole kind of cultural reality is that if you don't work harder or the assumption is there if you don't work harder, then you won't be able to keep what you have. You know you won't have as many youth and youth group, you won't have as many members as you have, your budget will be smaller. If you don't work 10 percent, 20 percent harder next year, you won't stay in the same place, you'll be sucked back and that is incredibly despairing and creates huge amounts of burnout. I mean, just burnout becomes the real existential crisis, I think, for many. So the response to this is like how do you get this accelerated mode, this competitive mode, this well, this scarcity of just trying to even keep what we have? How do we get that out of our consciousness, how do we get that really out of our moral imagination of what is good? And the issue is that it won't just be the absence of that that will do it. We're going to need something actually productive or something that reframes us, more than just saying let's all not work so hard or let's all take a break. We're going to need a different way of relating to the world, and both the accelerated kind of interpretation and the response of it I take from a German social theorist named Hartmut Rosa, who's, I think, really quite a genius interpreter of our cultural context.Andy: 18:22

And Rosa's point is slowing down is necessary and we should take everything we can do to slow down, but in the midst of slowing down, you can't just create a vacuum. If you just create a vacuum, it won't do it. These structures are too insidious. The way that this speeding up works, the way this competition works. They're just too insidious that you could just say I'm going to take a break from them. They'll reach for you, they'll grab for you. So you're going to need a different way of relating to the world.Andy: 18:50

And he says we have this, though I mean, we do have experiences in the world that don't feel accelerated, that we still do have these experiences where we don't feel like time is using us but we're being pulled into the fullness of time, where time isn't racing through us but we feel almost he doesn't he uses this kind of analogy as a social theorist that we have these kind of sacramental experiences of time too, where it feels full, it doesn't feel like it's accelerating, but it feels like it's drawing us into something deeper. And he says you know, these kinds of experiences we have are like looking at a beautiful painting or having a long conversation with our grandchild or our child, where we feel like there's this deep sense of being alive, of resonating, and he calls this kind of action of resonance where we feel this deep, deep form ofating. And he calls this this kind of action of resonance where we feel this deep, deep form of connection. And this is the ultimate problem that takes us back to the beginning of this conversation is that acceleration alienates us.Andy: 19:48

It ends up alienating us from ourself, it alienates us from our congregation. It ultimately and tragically, dangerously alienates us from the world where we feel like we're not in the world. We feel like nothing in the world speaks to us. We're too exhausted to have an experience where we feel spoken to, whether directly by other people, or spoken to by the beauty, by the fullness of life. We're just too exhausted for that. We're moving too fast to have those experiences.Andy: 20:20

So his point that I really quite agree with and have tried to build on is is how do we create space for these resonant experiences? How do we look at really church life as congregational life, as a school that teaches people how to relate to one another in the world and then ultimately as God, in this cadence of resonance over acceleration, and that may start to infuse us not with a bunch of resources that allow us to win the market, but it may infuse us with life. And I think ultimately what the church is after is living inside the life of Jesus Christ and therefore the life of the Spirit, which means that life is really a connotation, the real marker of what it means to be faithful, not growth or expansion, which too often we assume.Margie: 21:14

Right, right for sure. And the acceleration just pushes us, like you said, to the place where you can't even make those kind of connections. I was just talking to a friend earlier today and said something about a tragic incidence that happened in her town and she was out of town at the moment and she goes oh no, that happened right in my neighborhood. And I said, oh really. And she said, oh yeah, right around the corner. And I said, oh, so you know these people? And she goes well, no, I don't know these people. And so I thought you know, and I thought that many times you can live in a neighborhood setting and be close to people and still not ever connect, and sometimes it's because you don't have time. The North American work ethic and the press, press, press has pressed its way into the church and we forget that we need to be making connections with people. It is more about relationship today than ever before. That is the gold, the gold key, if you will. But we're running too fast sometimes to even to even do that.Margie: 22:27

That's horrible implications for anything you know outreach or yeah, yeah. Connect yeah.Andy: 22:34

It's even really the news cycle. I mean, you know, you think of the stuff that's happened in the last my gosh, in the last few months that if you would have saw it in a like 1990s, early 2000 movie you would have been like this is not realistic. And now it's like in our news. You know you would have thought this plot of this movie, this would never happen.Andy: 22:55

And now it's there, like, for instance, you know, I mean just to raise one. Like you know that Israel gets bombs and beepers that blow up in in the you know, blow up their enemies. Years ago you would talk about this all the time. How did this happen? How did this occur? It was in the news cycle for like two or three days and now it's just kind of gone and you kind of think to yourself did that happen or did I make that up? And it is so surreal. You think that, like, things are moving so fast we can't even reflect on. What does this mean? How did this happen? What kind of world are we living in? We're just on to the next thing, and maybe it has a lot to do, or it's encapsulated in how we tend to entertain ourselves, which I hate to admit this, but my wife, kar, and I do this. We just, you know, either Twitter or Instagram.Andy: 23:47

You just watch two minute videos over and over and over and over. You know, like you just keep scrolling through them and at the end of an hour of doing that, you haven't really watched anything. You've distracted yourself, but you haven't. It's not like you're more informed or you saw something beautiful, you laughed, maybe. Or that was another you know cute dog video, but it's all episodic and it all ends up feeling really foggy and like you didn't really have any well, you didn't have any coherent experience. There was no narrative arc to all of those two minute videos for the most part, no, there isn't, there isn't.Margie: 24:22

And I know in my small group there's a guy that is an ER nurse and he said he said I don't think our physicality is meant for all that we are taking in. He said I just I don't think we can handle it. I don't know, maybe in you know, 50, 100 years, our DNA will shift and change and something I don't know. I have no idea. But he said you know when some of these things happen, like you brought up the pagers and exploding pagers and that, and you know, back in the 50s you wouldn't have learned about that, for you know a couple weeks, maybe you know, or when the Pony Express came by or something. But today there's such an immediacy, and I think that does contribute to this acceleration, which is its speed that keeps on increasing and increasing and increasing.Margie: 25:15

You and your book, though, talk about a different church model. You connect it into Acts with Acts, and I really I appreciate that a lot. I love Acts. Acts is just it's a fun ride, it really is, and I thought you rightly ascribed it. It's mistitled. It should be the Acts of God. And you talk about quote this moment with these people. Can you unpack this moment with these people as a way that we can help. I don't know if it's mitigate, maybe that's even too strong, but work against the acceleration.Andy: 25:54

Yeah, reform ourselves in some way. I mean, I do think we are these strange creatures us, you know, middle class, late modern Americans that we tend to always be projecting ourselves into the future. I mean that becomes a huge issue of you know, we rarely are where our bodies are. What's next? What do I have to get prepared for? How am I going to get this person here and that person there? I mean, you know, we're always three days ahead of ourselves and I think that's really what happens when most people come to church that they're sitting there and now it's supposed to be a moment of reflection and receiving and hearing and engaging, and usually I think a lot of people like when it's time to hear the word preached. They have to do a lot of work to just be there, to just receive.Margie: 26:41

To be in the moment.Andy: 26:42

To be in the moment is really, really hard. And yet I think one of the great gifts of all religious communities, and particularly Christian communities, is this invitation to be in this moment. But to be in this moment, you have to be with these people. So the gift of actually being with these other bodies here in this time, in this moment, is an incredible gift. I mean, it is really regenerative and forming. To just try, even if it's for 45 minutes or an hour and 15 minutes or however long your service is, to just be in this moment and accept the gift of being with these people. And the gift may be that you can't stand the person across the sanctuary for whatever attention you might have, but here you are with these people. And what does it mean to be in this moment with these people? And really what that ultimately is about is how do we become?Andy: 27:34

Instead of churches, I think, instead of Protestant churches are always thinking how can we do more with less? How can we get more out of this? That really the gift of even the Protestant imagination is to stop and receive something is that you actually can't do anything really here. You really have to receive something and all you're doing will come out of what you receive, and to receive the gifts of God, to receive the word of God, to receive the life of this community in this moment, with these people, you have to learn to wait and, as I think, late modern people we hate waiting, like we've been formed to think that waiting is wasting and if we are particularly in a crisis, the worst thing you should do is nothing and just wait around. I mean, what a waste that would be and how horrible.Andy: 28:23

And yet there may be a kind of paradoxical renewal that will happen here, that what the church needs to do is, instead of trying to optimize and accelerate its way out of this, trying to even innovate its way out of this, is that we should wait.Andy: 28:37

And my guess is real significant, theologically inspired, adaptive innovations will come out of learning to wait. But we have to wait. That happens at the end of Luke in Acts 1. That Acts 2 and Pentecost only comes when the community gathers with the command from Jesus to the men on the road to Aramaeus, where they're told to go back to Jerusalem and to wait. Really, what gathers the church, what starts the church, is the command to wait, to wait on the spirit, to wait on God to move, and I think that disposition may be a healthier one for our leaders, that our job as a pastor is to help their communities. Wait for God by remembering that we're these people in this place, that it's this moment, these people, that that might be more renewing than trying to think what do we do, how do we get more out of this, how do we work harder, that we actually, I think, should learn to wait on God.Margie: 29:46

Do you think, then, that that infers that we have just been running on ahead of God?Andy: 29:57

Yeah, I mean it's an interesting statement because at one level, you know, theologically, we would want to say how could you ever run ahead of God? I mean, when we say God, we're talking about something that's nothing greater can be thought. But at another level, in the sense of the way God acts and the way that God's revealed God's self in Jesus Christ and through the incarnation, there's a great book written by a Japanese theologian that was titled the Three-Mile-an-Hour God, because the three miles an hour is basically how fast you can walk so that God moves at this pace of three miles an hour, moves at this pace of Jesus of Nazareth, moves at the pace of a human who walks. And so there is something about that that we can kind of race beyond the pace that God desires to move in. And you know, the God of Israel is a God who really calls Israel over and over again to wait on this God, with no sense of like, wait 10 minutes or wait 10 days, or you just have to wait for this God to appear, because this is a God who arrives. This is a God who enters into circumstances, and particularly enters into circumstances of death and loss and a brokenness, and brings healing and brings newness, and you have to wait within those experiences to experience that.Andy: 31:19

So, yeah, I do think there's something theologically legitimate in the full breadth of the Christian confession to say there's a kind of primal sin here that we try to get out ahead of God.Andy: 31:30

I mean, in some ways that's what the serpent tempts Adam and Eve with, which is you know. Did God really say how about you get out ahead of God here and you have the same knowledge of God? In other words, it's a lot of theologians would say that it becomes this temptation to not be creatures, to not have to live in limit, to not have to wait and live inside the relational well, we could call it the relational residence of word and response with God, but to kind of take control of your own destiny. And I think that's a really interesting correlation to this moment. I think most denominations and often a lot of pastors feel like we have to control our own destiny. We have to take control here. Instead, remember, who we're trying to take control from is God. Maybe God calls us to wait and find a renewal in this waiting and in this suffering and in this celebration of joy with each other and being together more than trying to have more resources to survive.Margie: 32:32

Sure, sure, but meanwhile, meanwhile, many people are functioning, you know, in anxiety and they can't seem to very well control it. It's tricky. It's tricky to control it in a real accelerated kind of culture that we live in. So we're fight or flight, you know, and the anxiety goes high. We don't do our best, thinking then, but that's some of that survival mode. We're concerned about our survival, and I think in your book what you're saying is that we are not the center of our story, that God is to be the center of our story and that God, ultimately, is the author of that story. Can you unpack that a little bit? Yeah?Andy: 33:22

Well, I mean, it's an interesting moral assertion. I agree with you completely that most of us feel this utter anxiety that we have to survive or that we're on the precipice of destruction or something, and we feel a lot of weight of that and maybe even feel deep levels of shame. If that, if that's happening, you know that we feel my watch on my watch, you know exactly, you know, on watch. This is all coming undone. Maybe we don't say this directly, but or maybe even it's more tacit or in the back of our minds, but we have this sense that it's our fault that this has happened, you know. So, first of all, to say if we're in a crisis, it makes a lot of sense that we don't have the anxiety, that we don't have the attention to wait, that we don't have the pull to wait, and so again, going back, I don't want to say we're not in a crisis, but I do want to reframe what the crisis is, and I do think that we become so confused in the midst of a crisis that what's actually occurred here, if we think about this theologically, is we've taken God's responsibility and somehow we think the church is dependent on us and not dependent on God. And so part of I think the only way forward is not to let ourselves off the hook by saying, well, we never have to worry about this, there's no sense of responsibility, I can be irresponsible. But it's also really to remind ourselves that the church is God's responsibility. And, yes, it is very true that our denominations may disappear, that I teach at a seminary. God forbid. Some of our seminaries disappear. There's no guarantee that these institutional structures will survive and that will be painful and we should grieve that. We shouldn't act like that's no big deal. That's a big deal. But when we catastrophize that into saying if we don't do something, christianity in America will disappear or the church will no longer exist, that is fundamentally catastrophizing because it's a big theological problem, because it says that the church is more dependent on our action than God's action.Andy: 35:38

And I think one of the things we can remember is that God is God, and when we talk about God, we're not talking about an idea that we have to somehow get the word out about. We're not talking about an idea that we need to market for. We're talking about a being that acts and moves in the world. We're talking about a God who is God, a God who is in, that this is all, that God has control of all of this, that God is, like we just said, that of which nothing is greater.Andy: 36:10

And I think sometimes we feel like, well, because we feel like the church has become so old and can't can't really take care of itself. So we therefore think we have to parent the church instead of the church being our parent. You know, then we inject that into our, our views of God, and we tend to think like God needs us, not that we need God. So I think a big piece of this is for us to remember who it is that has called us, who it is that we serve. And we are talking about the God of creation, we're talking about the God of salvation, we're talking about the one who frees Israel from Egypt and raises Jesus from the dead. I mean that's very different.Margie: 36:55

And I like the fact that you said you know who is the star of the story? Is the church the star of its own story? And even the way sometimes we articulate faith, we'll say I accepted Jesus as my Savior, and I'm not saying that you can never say that. But what I am saying is it's a misrepresentation. Like you said, theologically, technically, what happened is God knocked on your heart and you responded. And that is what the transaction really is. And it's the same thing if we became a waiting church, waiting on God's direction and waiting for us to discern what our next steps are instead of charging off, and then we respond to that. That's, as Blackaby would say, is joining the work in the world that God is doing, but we're joining what God is doing instead of setting the tone. So it's kind of an interesting way that we talk and speak well, same thing about our faith in terms of what is technically and theologically correct, and it really does make a big difference. It absolutely makes a big difference. I like that.Margie: 38:12

You then go on to describe the waiting church and you say there's tension in church life and you're alive if there's tension there. But we tend to mirror all the anxiety of the culture. We like to think that we're separate and apart, sanctified and separate and apart, but we actually carry many of the ills of the culture and then, like you said, we sit in a worship situation and we don't receive very well. So I think you're right that there needs to be some new thinking reframing done. So I think that I think you're right that there needs to be some new thinking reframing done, and I always like to quote Oswald Chambers here at this kind of thing. Am I more attached to my ideas about God?Margie: 39:01

Yeah then I am attached to God, so that's kind of where some of that, some of that lie. And I did like to the section where you talked about God being a pet.Andy: 39:18

Yeah.Margie: 39:19

Yeah, that's some of that, can you? Can you bring that to our audience here?Andy: 39:23

Yeah, well, especially when we mix up, who's the star of the story? That when we mix up, who's the star of the story? We usually think I mean, and the point of that is in a competitive environment. Back to our competitive environment. Most often churches are told that they're in a competitive market. They're in competitive religious marketplace, so they better find what distinguishes their church over others.Andy: 39:46

So therefore find your story, you know, find what sets you apart in the market, and that does I mean. I get that from just a brute fact of thinking about how you relate to your community and things like that. But it does open up a big theological problem, which it says that your church's story is more important, or is the primary story, to God's own story. And theologically, what we call in the midst of our ecclesiology is that the church has no story of its own. The only story the church has is the story of God's act within the world, of God's bringing salvation to the world. And so the issue becomes then if we put our story, the church's story, above God's story, then what ends up happening is it becomes a bit like you watch these biopics about companies like Apple or whatever.Andy: 40:36

Yeah, there's been these movies about these things and what of course you get is these end up being stories about personalities.Andy: 40:44

They end up being stories about the company and they're framed to us as stories about a product. But they end up becoming stories about a company and that becomes framed to us as stories about a product. But they end up becoming stories about a company. And that becomes very similar to when we think of our churches, that it becomes the story of the church, and then the only thing that God can become within that is the product we sell. So God becomes our kind of pet or product that we end up selling, because God becomes an idea. And that starts by getting the story wrong and thinking. The survival of the church will be dependent on us finding our own unique, creative, church-based story not that the church could be renewed by remembering again, rehearsing and living out God's own story of how God comes into the world in the person of Jesus Christ and brings salvation and continues to move the world towards its culmination. That will be the fulfillment of God's act.Margie: 41:39

Sure. So if you could say a couple of words directly to ministry leaders, what would you encourage them with leaders? What would you encourage them with?Andy: 41:51

Yeah, I think I mean I would ultimately encourage them. I think my big word would be to them well, it'd be maybe a couple things. I mean, the first thing would be something that I've already kind of been dancing around or tried to say directly, which is that the church is bigger than you and it will survive, that the church does not need you to make sure it can survive, you can go off duty, that your job isn't to keep this thing alive. That's God's responsibility. And you will be pulled into this in a big way and, I think, in a life-giving way. But don't over, don't, don't over, don't catastrophize, don't over assume.Andy: 42:34

What's needed here and to remember the church is one word I would really say is the church has had, there's been, more difficult times than this and and it's gotten through by god's mercy and god's grace like these are not golden period. This is not a golden period. No one's going to look back historically at the first three decades of the 21st century and say, oh, this was a golden era of Protestantism or just congregational life. But there have been worse times. There have been far worse times and God has been faithful to see the church through.Andy: 43:05

So remember God's faithfulness and then make the payoff of this, or remember that the great privilege of this calling is really the gospel itself, that it is utterly beautiful and, instead of making it what you can build, that your value will be on.Andy: 43:28

Did you bring the numbers or did you make some kind of difference? You will make a difference, but you will make a difference as you become more and more infatuated and in love with the gospel itself. And so to remember the utter privilege that you spend your life reflecting on this incredible story and trying to help people prepare to truly live in it and die with it, I mean that is an incredible task. To be a pastor and by pastor I mean really broadly to be in ministry is an incredible privilege. To walk with people as they try to make sense of their greatest joys and their deepest, deepest, heart-wrenching pains and suffering and grief, and to point to something bigger, to point to the redemptive work of the triune. God is an incredibly beautiful thing and it will not leave you without bruises and without heartache, but it will renew and it will make your life well-lived.Margie: 44:38

Yeah, what was coming to mind for me when you were speaking there is we need to return to our first love and recapture that and wait on God for our next steps. Yeah, amen. Well, I will for sure put a link to your book in the show notes and I really appreciate you coming on. I'm going to ask you one last question, and I always apologize to people every time I do this because I say, oh, and I should have warned you that I'm going to ask you this question. I guess I'm consistent. So anyway, the title of the podcast being the Crabby Pastor, I need to ask you what makes you crabby.Andy: 45:32

I need to ask you what makes you crabby. You know, what makes me really crabby is meetings. Meetings yeah institutional meetings at my school make me kind of crabby, especially when they feel like we're spinning around stuff. So, yeah, that makes that makes me crabby Having deep conversations about things I like, but sometimes I get a little crabby when I yeah, when I when I'm in too long of meetings. So, thinking of institutional meetings I have coming up this week, oh boy.Margie: 46:09

Well, high marks for honesty there for you. Thanks again for joining me on the Krabby Pastor podcast.Andy: 46:17

Thanks for having me.Margie: 46:22

So how do the pieces of your life fit together? Do they fit together well and things are humming along just fine, or are there some pieces that are tight or absent or just not fitting the bill? This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series, where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, which is a form of self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create, and there's a nifty, nifty analogy Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about. So I'd love for you to join me. To do that, to opt in, I'll need you to email me at crabbypastor at gmailcom. That's crabbypastor at gmailcom. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this. So make a plan to join me in the glass workshop.Margie: 47:47

In the Glass Workshop, are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout maybe? I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebryce dot com that's B-R-Y-C-E MargieBryce dot com, and it is a burnout questionnaire free for you to download and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it, and that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. Pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I asked that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebryce dot com. It's on the homepage of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.Margie: 49:27

Hey friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook I make stained glass as part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the show notes. But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help.Margie: 50:38

I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the crabby Pastor.

Unlock the secrets to navigating the intricate world of intrapersonal conflict with insights to promote pastor health from Rev. Geniese Stanford, a former business professional turned pastor, who joins me on the Crabby Pastor podcast.

Rev. Geniese Stanford is certified by Next Element Consulting, LLC ("NE") to provide training, coaching and consulting services relating to its Leading Out of Drama® methodology, the intellectual property rights to which are held by NE. 

Support the show

This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

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Find regular support on my Facebook group: Building Sustainability in Ministry Leaders: Beating Burnout.

Margie: 0:01

Hey there, it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Krabby Pastor podcast, where we talk about all things sustainability, whether it's sustainability in ministry, in your personal life and we acknowledge that the church is in a transitional time. So we hit topics there too that are going to stretch your mind and the way you lead, especially how you lead yourself, so that you don't become the Krabby Pastor. Well, hey there, this is Margie Bryce with CraPastor Pastor podcast. Notice, I say Margie Bryce with the Krabby Pastor. That is distinct and different from Margie Bryce with the Krabby Pastor. That is distinct and different from Margie Bryce is the Krabby Pastor. Just making that point clear, for I don't know why, but I just felt like it today. So I am here, we're going to have a very conflicted episode. I just want to tell you upfront, because we're going to talk about conflict, and actually what we're going to talk about is a specific kind of conflict which is intrapersonal, that's I-N-T-R-A personal.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 1:30

So I have here with me let Janice tell us a bit about who she is and what she does and a bit about her interest in conflict. Okay, my background is I was in business for 19 years Last stint was with IBM, answered the call into ministry and pastored United Methodist churches for 20 years and I recently moved to the Northeast and while I was a pastor I became interested in conflict and how to do it better.Margie: 1:52

That's interesting, that that evolved.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 1:54

Then I'm just saying yes, because yes, and I never felt like I could deal with the conflict in a healthy way. And so I sought out training and ways to educate myself and try to learn new skills and I finally found what I thought really fit me and it's called Leading Out of Drama. And I started by reading a book Compassionate it's conflict without casualties, and it's based on this idea of compassionate accountability and I'm going to talk more about that in a few minutes. And so I really sought out. The conflict in the church bothered me because we never seemed to settle it and certainly didn't settle it in healthy ways and it really holds churches back from accomplishing their mission. And so, while I was serving as a pastor, that's really what drove me to be interested in it.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 2:53

And then I found what I felt was a really good plan, and I had been trained at the Lombard Peace Center in mediation and that kind of conflict resolution in mediation and that kind of conflict resolution.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 3:07

And what I found and what I really wanted was something to transform conflict into productive, into something that produced a good result, wasn't just something, because in mediation and in negotiation and common problem solving or problem resolution, each party usually has to give up something because you come to an, you know you come to an agreement about what you're going to give up and that's the end result.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 3:30

And I didn't like the idea of having to give up something because I think when there's a conflict it probably arises out of real especially in the church real concern about something, and so I felt it was important to hear that concern. But I didn't have the skills and I didn't know how to do it. So I had done some training on process communication with Next Element, which is a firm headquartered in Kansas. That's where I was serving churches and it was all about understanding how people communicate and what that tells you about the best way to communicate with them. And at the same time, nate Regeer, who's the CEO, was writing this book, conflict Without Casualties, and I became very interested and I actually ended up being on the launch team for that book and that really started me down this path of understanding conflict in a new way, writing me down this path of understanding conflict in a new way. And so the way I define conflict, or the way that we define conflict, is the gap between what I'm experiencing and what I want to experience.Margie: 4:38

Oh, okay, say that again.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 4:42

Okay, conflict is the gap between what I'm experiencing, currently experiencing, and what I want to experience. And here's a really easy example. Okay, so let's say that I'm on the way to work, if I work for a church. I'm on my way to the church and I have a meeting and I realize, as I'm leaving the house, I did not have that last cup of coffee that I really wanted. So I think, oh good, there's Starbucks on my way to the church, I'll just drive through and I can still get to the church on time. And I drive up to Starbucks and I see 10 cars in the drive through. All right, what am I experiencing? I really want coffee.Margie: 5:24

If you're coffee deprived, you're pretty cheesed at the long line.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 5:28

Oh yeah, I'm really irritated and so I see I want coffee. I see this 10 car line, I'm like, okay, the dilemma, so the conflict is do I get the coffee that I want or do I show up to the meeting on time? I can't have both Right. That's internal conflict. It's the gap between what I want or what I'm currently experiencing, which is I want coffee, and what I want to experience. I want coffee, but there's a gap. I can't get it in time to make my meeting, so I have to make that trade off. So that's internal conflict. It's only conflict that involves me.Margie: 6:09

Okay, so that's the same internal conflict. Would that be another way to say intrapersonal?Rev. Geniese Stanford: 6:16

Internal conflict is intrapersonal meaning inside myself.Margie: 6:20

So it's me, myself and I, that merry threesome, there having conflict, that's right.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 6:27

With every conflict there's a decision point, right, am I going to? How am I going to address that gap? Because I'm going to address it one way or the other and that's something that I have to decide in the moment. In this example and this applies to all kinds of conflicts I mean that's a simple everyday conflict that we all have and we pretty much know how to handle those, and it might it might affect my day for a little while, but eventually I'm okay and you know, I figure out a way to solve it. Maybe I make coffee at the church, or maybe I, after that first meeting, I go get my Starbucks. I mean, there's lots of different ways to solve it. Maybe I make coffee at the church, or maybe I, after that first meeting, I go get my Starbucks. I mean, there's lots of different ways to solve it.Margie: 7:09

Or maybe you go to get in line, get the coffee and be late. Forgiveness, that's true Because they would want you there with coffee rather than without.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 7:20

That's very true, because interpersonal conflict can turn to interpersonal conflict?Margie: 7:27

Yes, and that, I think, is the issue. I was really fascinated. We talked I actually met Janice through the ministerial coaching initiative that is out of Point Loma, nazarene. It's not just Nazarene, it's a more broad base any pastors and maybe I'll stick the link in the show notes but we met and connected on there and you know we can have wonderful chats right, but along the way, you know we were talking about how this internal conflict can show up then in the church environment for the ministry leader and how that can impact. Can you say more on that?Rev. Geniese Stanford: 8:12

Yeah. So let's take it to to a how intrapersonal conflict shows up in conflict with others, and we don't have to be church specific, but we can be Really. The whole focus of intrapersonal is what's going on inside me. So with church conflict, I as a pastor always felt uncomfortable and a sense of this is a church. What I've learned is that conflict is natural and normal and you cannot make progress without conflict. Because if I'm just satisfied with how things all are, which is unrealistic, but if that's what I'm telling myself, then I am not motivated to do anything about it. To do anything about it. So the gap is actually can be looked at as motivation.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 9:08

Conflict actually can be positive if I know how to navigate it and how to use the energy. So conflict is basically energy. That gap is filled with energy. So what I'm experiencing and what I want to experience that gap, that's energy. And in the case of the coffee, I use that energy first to decide what I'm gonna do about it and then to deal with how I decided to deal with it. So I might use that energy in a positive way. I might just say you know, I can do without the coffee, I'm gonna be on time for my meeting and I'm not going to let not having coffee affect me, and that's a choice I make. So there's energy in that gap and I can choose how to use that energy and if I use it positively, I transform it into positive, then that's how positive change can occur.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 9:59

If I allow that energy to be used negatively, that's called drama. Oh, and drama is not only an energy vampire, it's a vampire to getting anything done. And drama shows up internally as well as externally, because however we are feeling internally can affect how we react and how we interact with other people. So it's important to notice, to kind of do a scan of myself on a regular basis to see where am I experiencing conflict within myself? That's really what intra-personal conflict is about is where does the conflict exist within me, what am I experiencing and how do I want to experience something differently? And, for example, we all know that health, both mental and physical health, really contributes to the status of a pastor's. Health really contributes to how effective they can be as a pastor. Yeah To that.Margie: 11:02

That's kind of my shtick right.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 11:10

That's right, and so if I am in poor health because of the choices I make, then I have to decide if I'm going to do anything about that. I mean, I can just stay in my bubble of poor health and not do anything about it, and and I will. For me, for example, if I'm in poor health or I'm not taking care of myself, there's a certain angst that builds up, and that's the intrapersonal conflict, and that angst steals energy from everything else, because I'm using it, I'm using the energy that I have, and it's it's negative energy and it pulls me down because I'm either self critical oh, you're just. You know you need to go exercise, I don't feel like exercising. It's that internal conversation I have. You know, if you want to get healthy, you need to go exercise.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 12:00

Yeah, I know that, but this is self talk. But I really don't feel like exercising. Yeah, I know that, but this is self-talk, but I and helps you identify the gaps. So if you catch yourself saying that's just terrible. You know about something, a decision you're making or something you don't do, and you start thinking about how terrible you feel about that, you've just uncovered an internal conflict that you probably need to address. You've just uncovered an internal conflict that you probably need to address. I need to, whatever the conflict is, whatever I'm currently experiencing, that is not what.Margie: 12:59

I want to experience.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 12:59

I, for one, have a vision of what I want to be, experiencing, how I want to be, and when I'm not, that I'm not at my best, and so there's a gap. What I'm currently experiencing is I am not exercising enough. Right, I'm not exercising enough and I can. There's what we call internal myths about ourselves and about others, and my myth is I'm not a good person because I'm not exercising and I'm overweight and so therefore, and it, it, it can lock me down, it can zap all my energy. So a really important part in uncovering intra, this internal conflict, is to use a simple tool called I want, because I want, I want, and so it's because, okay, because. And so it goes like this, and it's really a personal affirmation. Self-affirmation is so important Anytime we're talking about interpersonal conflict or just growing in our personhood. So the positive affirmation is I want. So I'm going to define the gap. So here's what I'm experiencing I want to experience this.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 14:11

So for me, I have grandkids right now, I want to be able to play longer in the backyard with my grandson. There's a gap I'm not able to do that right now. I can play a short time, but I don't have the stamina to play a long time. So I want and why do I want to spend more time with my grandson in the backyard. That's where the because. So I want X, y, z, because, well, I want to have more stamina and play longer with my grandson in the backyard. Because it's great bonding time with him. It's a lot of fun. I love being with him and with the family. I love being outside, and I don't feel good when I have to cut it short because I don't have the stamina. So, because, because, because, because I don't have the stamina, because I'm not in good shape, I don't. The outcome is I don't get what I really want, which is a longer time to play with my grandson in the backyard.Margie: 15:16

It can be as simple as that.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 15:18

But the important thing is to say I want, because of all the things it does. It makes me closer to my grandson. It's a lot of fun. I'm building up, you know, positive feelings with him. I'm showing up in his life, all those different things. It's giving me great joy.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 15:38

And so there's a gap, though, because I want to be able to play as long as he wants to, but I'm not physically able, and so I have to decide am I going to do something about that gap? Is the gap strong enough? Is my desire to be different strong enough? And that's where negative myths can come in. I can have negative self-talk that says you've been here before, you always said you wanted to be in better shape, but you just don't do it. And so then my answer back is I want to increase my stamina so I can get this result of being with my grandson more.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 16:23

Because of all the reasons, I return to that, and then I say okay, then I hold myself accountable. What am I willing to commit to? So there's this. It's defining the conflict, defining the gap, defining what I want instead of the gap. So I define what I'm currently experiencing. I define what I want to experience, I of the gap. So I define what I'm currently experiencing, I define what I want to experience. I see the gap, then I decide what I'm going to do about the gap.Margie: 16:51

Right, this speaks a lot a lot, a lot to and I've talked to Dr Chris Adams about this before. There's a podcast about that very thing the resistance to doing self-care and taking it really serious. Because if you talk to us about, if you have all this internal conflict going on whether it's due to self-care or some other issues how that impacts, how you show up to other people.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 17:28

Well, and if I have these unresolved conflicts number one, if I haven't named them, if I haven't really spent the time to look deeply in myself and know what my internal conflicts are, then it shows up in ways that I can't even detect. Right it just, it colors my thinking, because it can result in low self, self what am I trying to say? Self-affirmation. It can result in I'm more edgy, it can result in lack of satisfaction, and so I bring all of that into relationship.Margie: 18:02

You can be.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 18:02

you can be crabby bring all of that into relationship. You can be crabby, crabby. That pretty much defines it. I mean, if I'm really, if I have a real sizable conflict going on interpersonal conflict I'm really unhappy with where I am. That that unhappiness is going to carry over and it's going to show up in conflict with other people. Sure, sure, because I'm not my best self.Margie: 18:25

Sure, and this kind of very thing is something that we're having a coach, which we both are but having a coach can be very helpful, help you to unravel some of the internal conflict that you have going on and then ask that question what am I willing to do about this? I mean, what do we say about ourselves if we aren't willing? Because this happens? You know, I mean the Apostle Paul. I keep thinking about this because I have to do a presentation in October at the Society of Professors of Christian Ministry, and I'm thinking about the Apostle Paul in this section where he says you know, what I want to do, I don't do, and what I that's this is a bad paraphrase here that I'm doing, but you kind of. I've read that and I love that because I thought, oh, how many of us are there? All of us, I think.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 19:22

That is self-talk of internal conflict all of us.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 19:25

I think that is self-talk of internal conflict. Yes, what I want to do, I do, and what I don't want to do, I do. Yeah, what's up with that? I know? Well, you've got an internal conflict and it's time to sit down and say I want X Y Z because X Y Z and look at that and decide, okay, this is what I'm going to do about it.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 19:42

But more than that, what this internal, unresolved conflict will do is it affects my self-confidence. It affects how I show up around other people, because if I feel like I'm not even taking care of myself, how can I possibly take care of someone else? And I think that's the missing thing for a lot of pastors is we put all of our energy into caring for other people and we forget that we really have to. We need a healthy core to be able to minister, and so we got to work on ourselves. Yeah, that can't stop us from continuing to serve as a pastor, but we need to. We need to up our, our self-talk with self-affirmation and we need to give ourselves self-compassion.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 20:31

I'm just recently connected with this idea of self-compassion. And how do I, when, when I make a commitment to myself to do something and then I don't follow through. I need to have self-compassion about that, not criticize myself too much, not decide, not have self-talk of I'm just a failure, I can't get anything done, blah, blah, blah. That's not going to help. I need to have self-compassion, so I need to say okay, what's in my way, again, identifying that gap. There's a gap in what I'm experiencing, what I want to experience what's?Rev. Geniese Stanford: 21:11

in my way Right now. What's in my?Margie: 21:12

way are the cider donuts on the counter that my husband had he got. We went to a cider mill and he got sick. He goes. Look, it's only six on here. I can have one a day for the next six days. Well, you know, I don't know, A lot of people aren't excited about those plain cider donuts, but you know, I had one this morning and I thought what I need to do is crumble these up, Put them in the garbage. I need to do, or maybe put him in a lockbox that only he has the code for something, Cause I, you know, I refuse to do the. Oh, I'm a terrible person because I ate this donut once a year. You know what I mean. You gotta be real.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 21:58

Yeah, well, and and that's the, that's the self-talk, that's the negative or positive self-talk. And you know you just had. You just described an internal conflict, perfectly Right. I see, the cider donut, I really want it, but I know it's not good for me, but what am I going to do about it? Or the second or third cider donut that you want, because the first one was so good.Margie: 22:21

I know it can go. It can go like that, and then there you are, you're, you're off to the right and then we have.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 22:29

Then we have the negative self-talk about why did I do that, the regret right. So internal conflict can show up in a lot of ways. It can show up as regret, and if I'm feeling regret about something, then I probably had a gap between what I experienced and what I wanted to experience. And so part of this journey of identifying internal conflict is to really do some self-examination about what do I want for my life in this time and in this place, for my life in this time and in this place and a coach can be very helpful in that, a therapist can be very helpful in that. Or we can do it on our own, and that's I love journaling for that reason, because I can do all the self-talk I need to in a journal, I can write down whatever train of thought is and I can go back and I can see where the gaps are existing and where I'm experiencing conflict and didn't realize it.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 23:29

Because part of the big leap is to identify the gaps, because I have to decide what I want, what do I really want, and then I can identify how far I am from what I really want and then pursue it. And then pursue it and take small steps and how this affects conflict with others is if we're in a place where we don't feel satisfied with ourself, we're unhappy with ourself. We're already experiencing a bunch of satisfied with ourselves. We're unhappy with ourselves. We're already experiencing a bunch of gaps within ourselves. My self-talk can turn negative. I can start to have all kinds of doubts about my ability or my other reaction can be as I lock in. I take a very firm position and I'm not willing to move off of it because I need something that's solid and stable. So give me an example of that.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 24:32

Okay. So let's say that somebody comes up to you at church and and says we really need to change the time of worship. It's just not working for our young families. We need to change the time of worship. It's just not working for our young families, we need to change the time of worship. And I've told you about this 10 times.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 24:49

Okay, in that moment, where am I on my scale? You know, I'm experiencing something, probably not what I wanted to experience. Do I have the capacity to respond in a way and I teach this, I do training for this to respond in a healthy way, even when I'm low on my own capacity. And so, in the moment, how do I answer that without creating greater conflict? I mean, I can just say, look, we're not going to change worship time and I walk away. Well, that doesn't help. That person is going to go off feeling unheard and probably angrier because I didn't take their concern seriously, and so I teach their skills. So let me step back for a minute and talk about roles we play in conflict, and this is internal as well as external. So roles we play in conflict One is victim.Margie: 25:54

We all like that one today. I think the culture reinforces that.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 26:00

Yeah, I think it does too, and I'm looking for validation from other sources instead of self-validation and self-compassion. And so a victim might give in. A victim might avoid conflict because they don't want to go there. Another role we play in and these are roles, this isn't who we are, these are roles we play. Another role we play is rescuer. I'm going to jump in and fix it. So somebody comes to me with a complaint, I'm going to tell them how to fix it right away. I'm going to jump in and give help where it's not offered, and I do that partly because it makes me feel good, and I have this myth that I believe I can make others feel good, which is a myth I can't Right.Margie: 26:47

I can't make other, and pastors are great fixers.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 26:52

Yes, and that's.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 26:53

We're probably playing a rescuer role a lot of that time.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 26:57

And the third role is so the persecutor is one who is self, what's the right word is the authority, and, like a persecutor might say, do this or else, so we can have internal persecutor right, that when I eat that second donut, that was stupid, that's an internal persecutor right. Or if somebody, like the example I used, somebody comes up and says we really need to change the time of worship, you don't have a clue, do you? We would probably never say it that directly, but that may be what we're thinking and it's going to come out in our communication, and so I can fall into the persecutor role often, because I feel trapped and I, you know, maybe he's the fifth person and maybe we've talked about changing worship times and we've been at an impasse. You know, he doesn't know what we've been talking about in meetings and maybe I'm so frustrated that I just say I'm not even going to consider it, and that's OK if that's really true, but said in a way that if I say it like that, it's going to immediately turn that person away.Margie: 28:19

Yeah, it certainly isn't what Jesus would say, is it? I don't think so.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 28:23

No, so those are roles we play, and we play all of the roles, but we have a dominant role. It isn't what Jesus would say, is it? I don't think so. No, right. So those are roles we play, and we play all of the roles, but we have a dominant role. And I have a tool called the Drama Resilience Assessment that defines those roles, that helps you identify what's your most frequent role and what is your least frequent role.Margie: 28:38

But we all play those roles in different circumstances, I'll have to get that link from you to put in the show notes. I know you already have it.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 28:46

The drama resilience assessment is only through a class that I teach, oh, okay.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 28:49

Okay, yeah, and it also. Then there's compassion skills that match up to the drama roles, and so the compassion skills are for victim openness about what I'm feeling, what I want, or it could be affirming what the other person is feeling or wanting, if this is interpersonal. So, for example, the compassion skill is I might say to the guy gosh, I hear you, this sounds really important to you, okay. So I've just addressed that. I hear him and that I see that it's important to him, or it wouldn't have brought it up to me. And then I move around. It's called the compassion cycle.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 29:31

So I move to the next step, which is resourcefulness. So I might say to him and it depends on, you know, part of this depends on me knowing exactly what I want and what I believe and what I hold firm to. So I might say to him you know we've been having conversations about that, we're going to have a meeting in a couple of weeks. If this happens to be going on, and I'd love to have your input before then, would you give me some ideas about your ideas about changing the worship time? And then we move to the next step in the same sentence, and we say and it's called the persistence role or compassion skill and I say, because that's my word that takes the resourcefulness and connects it to the persistence, and persistence is about setting boundaries or making commitments, and so I'd really like to have your ideas, because worship is really important to me and to this church and I'm committed to it being the very best worship that it possibly can be.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 30:43

And so then we return to that person and we let them respond, and so it's called the compassion cycle, and what it does is I will be able to recognize, after the training, I will be able to recognize if somebody's coming to me in a victim role or in a rescuer role, or in a persecutor role. I'll be able to tell Persecutor would sound like this this worship time stinks and I'm not coming back. That's a persecutor role, right, and that just tells me that's really, really, really important to this person and something's going on. They feel really strongly about this, and that's what I would say is wow, it sounds like you feel really strongly about this.Margie: 31:24

I really want to hear more about this, and that's what I would say is wow it sounds like you feel really strongly about this.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 31:26

I really want to hear more about this, because if it's if it's a church member, I'm not going to let that just sit there. Right? I really want to hear more about that. Now. It has to be sincere, right? Let's get together and set a time or whatever. And that's how I close that compassion cycle. So I'm using my compassion skills to respond to the conflict and the particular role they're in in the conflict. That's true internally too. Bringing it back to intrapersonal. So in that moment I am probably experiencing intrapersonal conflict too, and this is where being aware of self-talk is really important. So what's going on behind the scenes inside me? In that moment of conflict? Maybe I'm saying to myself I knew this was going to come up. I knew that you know why haven't I taken care of this before? Or, or I might feel trapped, like I have no idea what to say. This guy I don't know, you know who knows where I am? Oh no, not him again. Oh no, not him again yeah.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 32:36

Which which, if I pay attention to that, I might miss an opportunity to invite him to a different place, to a different way of seeing things. So every conflict is an opportunity to close that gap.Margie: 32:53

Well, isn't then also the oh no, not him again. I mean, that's kind of a victim response, absolutely On my, you know, on my end, like so if you say that and then you go oh no, now I'm behaving as if I'm the victim. How can I step into something better?Rev. Geniese Stanford: 33:12

Yeah, and in the moment that's where the compassion skills and the training really helps, Because in the moment I don't have time necessarily to think through all of that.Margie: 33:20

Right.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 33:21

But if I know how to do it and I've practiced it and I've dealt with myself, so the same thing happens with myself. So I can, I can use the compassion cycle with myself. So back to the the. I want to play longer with my grandson, but I don't have the stamina and I'm not doing anything about it. So that's where I I say how I feel about it. I feel unsuccessful or I feel terrible, or I I feel like I'm missing something. And then I go to resourcefulness. So it openness is a lot about identifying feelings. Feelings and wants. Ooh, that yeah, and for some people that's hard. Let me give you a hint about that. There is out on the internet, there's a feeling wheel and it has every kind of feeling, and I grew up in a family that did not express feeling so I've had to turn to learning how to express feelings by using a feeling wheel.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 34:24

It's really, really important to label and to identify what we're feeling and be very specific. So I acknowledge what I'm feeling and then I think through resourcefulness Okay, how can I respond to this guy? That's not going to alienate him further. He's obviously experiencing a gap himself. I'm experiencing a gap because I'm uncomfortable, and so how can I? You know, I'm thinking to myself, how can I respond? In a resourceful way? Or for myself, I'm thinking, okay, what are my options? If I want to exercise, if I want to have more stamina, what are my options? That's resourceful, OK, so I could walk every day, I could start eating better. You know all my possibilities. That's the resourcefulness step.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 35:16

And then I make a commitment. That's the persistence step, so I can use the compassion cycle myself and it might be something that I work through through journaling over a period of time, depending on how big the conflict is, how much I really am motivated to address it. And so there are. There's understanding the drama role you're in and identifying the drama that you're experiencing. So that gap between what I want and what I'm currently experiencing, and if I let it take a negative bent, that's going to be drama. It's going to zap all my energy and I'm not going to have the energy to address it. So instead I make the decision, the choice to go to have self-compassion and the steps in self-compassion if I really want to do something about it. I mean I can just have self-compassion and say I'm not ready to do something about this yet and that's OK. And for the moment I've solved that conflict until the next time I go play and I have to stop and sit down.Margie: 36:22

Right, because I don't have the stamina.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 36:24

So then the conflict's back, and maybe this time I go play and I have to stop and sit down right Because I don't have the stamina. So then the conflict's back, and maybe this time I'm ready to address it, I'm ready to take steps, and so I apply the compassion cycle to myself, and I'm doing this preferably by journaling. But some people only want to do it thoughtfully. And part of the self-affirmation is and at the persistent stage is to say I will or I will not Right, and to write that down as an affirmation.Margie: 36:56

I will start walking every day, I will stop eating the donuts on the counter.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 37:03

I will stop eating the three donuts that I really want that are remaining on the counter. Yes, there are. That's satisfying, yeah, I know.Margie: 37:11

I've had two, I think not in one day, just for the record, but I'm done. But what about that? You know, self-compassion is great, you know, but at some point the rubber's got to hit the road. And, by the way, I want to say I love what you're talking about here because it is so practical. It's so practical and then it's very Christ-like approach as well, the compassion and the you know all of it. It has great promise and potential for ministry leaders dealing with both conflict within themselves and then understanding externally. And we'll for sure put a contact for you in the show notes if somebody wants to.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 38:00

Yeah, let me. Let me mention one more thing about compassion.Margie: 38:04

Because I have one last question too, but go ahead.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 38:06

OK. We often think compassion is just about empathy empathizing with somebody else or empathizing with ourself. But compassion in the, in the way that we see conflict, in the way we see really healthy conflict and leading out of drama, and so we look at compassion, returning to the Latin root, which means to struggle with. So compassion is to struggle with and that's what the compassion cycle allows us to do. We're struggling with the other person, not against. So I like to think about playing tennis. I love tennis, I don't play enough anymore, but I like to think about tennis when I'm thinking about struggling with or struggling against.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 38:48

So struggling against is our normal pattern. So if we're struggling against something, we're probably sitting, you know. If it's another person, we're probably. If we're seated at a table, we're probably seated apart from each other, opposite of each other, and that sets us up to struggle against right there. So, like tennis players, one's on one side, one's on the other side. If we then move and orient ourselves side by side, it opens up the possibility of struggling with. So if I were to go have coffee with this person at the very least if it was a square table I would sit one here and one here. I would not sit across from oh you would sit next to.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 39:30

I would sit next, yes, okay, and if it was a rectangle table, I would sit on one end, facing this way, and I, he and I would ask the other person sit there and I would turn slightly so that we're on the same side of the table. It's amazing what just that positional thing can do. It opens up possibilities, and so struggling with is a really important part of compassion. And when I'm addressing the intrapersonal, the internal conflict, struggling with is struggling with myself, right. Conflict Struggling with is struggling with myself, right. So I'm struggling with the part of myself that has self doubt and I'm struggling with the part of myself that has self compassion, and I'm allowing those two to struggle together. Does that make?Margie: 40:17

sense. Oh yeah, absolutely, Absolutely it does. I love this picture of compassion because there's a part of it where I go, okay, I'm going to say, all right, that's okay, that's okay, You're not a bad person for eating the donut, you know or whatever the issue is I'm, you know, going to give myself some compassion, but at some point you have to hold yourself accountable, and I guess that's where you're talking about the steps, where you say I'm ready to act, I'm going to fill in the blank. Can you talk some about the self accountability?Rev. Geniese Stanford: 40:51

component. It can be any food that we love, or it can be anything that we love. And so let's say, because I just went to a farm stand that had the best fresh right now up in New England it's cider donuts- See, this is what they are.Margie: 41:16

That's on my counter. So now you have compassion? Yes, I have.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 41:22

I love those things and so OK. So I have one donut and I'm allowing myself that and it's great, okay. And then I think, oh, I really want that other donut, I really really want that other donut. So I say to myself, okay, what, what? What are my options? I can eat the other donut, I can eat the other donut and walk more. I can eat the other donut and just accept that I overate it. You know, I'm allowing myself that privilege. And then the next time, what am I going to do? I'm allowing myself that privilege to eat the second donut because I will, because I want and I will. I'll walk longer, or I won't eat carbs for dinner, or I'll. Whatever I decide I'm going to do about it, or I might just give myself permission to have a treat, right?Margie: 42:21

So I rationalized this morning and said well, it is in the morning, I'm going to have more carb thing, it's better in the morning and I am going to kind of this CrossFit ish thing later in the day. So we're doing it. That's, that's what I said. But I think I'm at the place where I'm going but there's three more donuts on the counter. So I'm thinking now what I need to do is maybe I should have my husband take the donuts to work and he can have them one a day in his desk.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 42:54

So see, that's an option I know. So you identify. I am feeling like I want yet another donut. Yeah, and here are my options. I can go have that other donut. How am I going to feel after that? I can ask my husband to take them to work with him so that I don't eat it, or I can get busy doing something else so that I just avoid it. Right, and so those are all my options. Right, that's resourcefulness. And then I make my commitment. This is what I'm going to choose to do about that. Okay, and so that's that's really how. And you might have to go around a circle, around the compassion cycle, multiple times.Margie: 43:37

Yeah.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 43:37

Right.Margie: 43:38

We might, but the accountability piece, though, is that is where the rubber meets the road, you know.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 43:45

The third step. What commitment am I going to make to myself or what action am I committing to? Yeah and then that's where I think self-affirmation statements are really helpful and, you know, if we have a journal handy, we might write down what we're going to commit to, so that we have a visual reference. And I'm not beyond taking a sticky note and writing my self-affirmation on it and sticking it by the sack of donuts.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 44:16

So that as soon as I go to that that sack of donuts, I'm going to see my self-affirmation about I'm going to X, Y, Z and then I'm like, okay, that's, that's another choice I can make, right, I really think I want that other donut.Margie: 44:33

But that little sticky note there is reminding me Right.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 44:36

I see that sticky note. That's resourcefulness. I was thinking ahead and now I have a decision to make. So that's how that works Right. So I'm not sure I have I everything that? What do you have another question?Margie: 44:52

No, my last question was about that self accountability piece. I mean, you know you can't just keep being nice to yourself. Isn't that a horrible thing to say? You can't just? I mean you can, you can, because there's no sense in beating yourself up. You know, I've been there and done that, not just about donuts, but just in general. You know, if somebody comes up to you on Sunday and said that that sermon really fell flat, I mean that sets in motion a lot for ministry leaders and, like you said, you can get to the place where you're. Either you're going to enact some compassion towards yourself, but then come to. If you keep hearing those kinds of things, then what am I going to do about that? What am I going to commit to? And maybe they're correct, maybe they're not. I mean, everybody can grow in an area.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 45:47

Well, and that's where, that's where I enact the compassion cycle and I say to myself okay, I just heard feedback that was less than positive. That's a fact. Here's how I feel about that. I feel kind of yucky about that because I thought it was a good sermon. So what are my options? I can use a different lens. I can look at my sermon differently. I can. I can maybe have somebody listen to it ahead of time, or I can read my sermon with an eye towards if it's flat, or I evaluate gosh. I was low energy this morning because I didn't sleep enough.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 46:27

You didn't have your coffee. Right, you didn't have your coffee.Margie: 46:30

Right, I didn't have my coffee.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 46:32

And so what am I going to do about that the next time? So the self-compassion cycle, or the compassion cycle, kicks in Once you have these ideas. You don't have to be perfect at it. The whole idea is to identify what you're feeling and why, and to decide what your possibilities are to deal with that, and then make a commitment to either deal with it or not.Margie: 46:53

No, and all of this, what you're talking about, are tools that are going to help us to grow as people and ways that you can manage yourself, manage the conflict that you're experiencing and or manage, be better at managing yourself within conflict, external to yourself, when people bring stuff to you. So this is this has been extremely valuable and I'm going to put a contact in there, maybe your email in the show notes. So if people wanted to reach out to you for some training, you're probably available to do training for groups of ministry leaders or even church boards in how to identify what's going on, because churches are challenged right now. Still, you know, post COVID, who do we want to be? What do we want to do next? And you know, when anxiety rises, sometimes the thinking department goes basically in the toilet, for lack of a better word at the moment. But you know, and when people are feeling anxious, I think conflict stirs as well. Well, thank you very much, janice, for joining us and for giving us some really, really practical, practical skills for dealing with conflict, Thank you. So how do the pieces of your life fit together? Do they fit together well and things are humming along just fine, or are there some pieces that are tight or absent or just not fitting the bill?Margie: 48:34

This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, which is a form of self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create, and there's a nifty, nifty analogy Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about, so I'd love for you to join me. To do that, to opt in, I'll need you to email me at crabbypastor at gmailcom. That's crabbypastor at gmail dot com. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this. So make a plan to join me in the glass workshop.Margie: 49:44

Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout maybe? I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebryce dot com. That's B-R-y-c-e margiebryce dot com, and it is a burnout questionnaire, free for you to download and kind of self assess and get a sense of where you're at. And there are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it and that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it.Margie: 50:51

And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I asked that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know, that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebryce dot com it's on the homepage of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at. Hey friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook. I make stained glass, that's part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the show notes.Margie: 52:05

But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the Crabby Pastor.

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What truly lies behind Pastor Appreciation Month and how does lack of validation impact pastor emotional health? Join me, Margie Bryce, your leadership coach who focuses on burnout prevention on the Crabby Pastor podcast as we unravel the tangled web of emotions and expectations surrounding this special time. From the joys of receiving unexpected gifts like bath bombs and meat packages to the bittersweet reality of being forgotten, we dive into stories shared by our vibrant online community. 

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Margie: 0:01

Hey there, it's Margie Bryce, your host of the C Pastor podcast, where we talk about all things sustainability, whether it's sustainability in ministry, in your personal life and we acknowledge that the church is in a transitional time, so we hit topics there too that are going to stretch your mind and the way you lead, especially how you lead yourself, so that you don't become the crabby pastor. Hey there, friends, it's that time of year again it's Pastor Appreciation Month, and I know that resonates in many different ways with many of you, and so, in honor of Pastor Appreciation Month, I'm going to be sharing twice in October, two different previous podcasts, that kind of address and get at some of that. Hopefully it will help put things in perspective for you. So just know that I'm thinking about you, rooting for you and praying for you as you navigate Pastor Appreciation Month. We are going to be talking about pastor appreciation month again. You know and you're saying, have we not talked about this enough? But I got to tell you this is one of the highest, statistically highest podcast topics that there are, right up there with burnout stories. People seem to like those and like to hear the redemption stories and those.

Margie: 1:47

I don't know what to say about Pastor Appreciation Month, but I decided to engage people on the Facebook group into this discussion and I'm not going to name any names or say what you said, but I'm just going to. Well, I'm going to say what you said, I'm just not going to attribute it to you. So no calling names here. I'm not naming names or anything like that. But I wanted to just talk about this because at the end of the day, you know, I'm wondering do we need to circulate a petition to get this thing stopped? I don't know, I don't know competition to get this thing stopped? I don't know, I don't know. Anyway, I'm going to get at that in just a second here, but I wanted to take a moment of privilege here because I'm the host and I can do this and I look at countries and places where my podcast is downloaded. It's kind of interesting and one just took my breath away, like last week when I looked at it, and it was Monaco, monaco. Somebody in Monaco downloaded the podcast. Maybe somebody was on vacation in Monaco, I don't know. I sure would like to go at some point, just kind of so I could say I've been there, but I guess you need to know why. That's fascinating for me, and this is just a point of minutiae for you but my mother was British I think I've said that on this podcast before and I was actually born in England as well. Well, so there's the Merry Crown of England on my birth certificate and my mother would talk a lot about royalty. So I know way more about what the whole lineage thing and how that works, because my mom would tell me that sort of stuff or, as they would say in England, my mom would tell me all of that. And second, in line to talking about British royalty, my mother would talk about Princess Grace of Monaco a lot, a lot, a lot. So I was just pumped to see that somebody had listened to the podcast from Monaco. So hello if you're out there again and still.

Margie: 4:12

So I'm going to move on, though, to. That's quite the transition and segue, isn't it? To the issue of pastor appreciation. That's what I'm going to do. So I started out the conversation with a question on the Facebook group self-care and sustainability, the number four ministry leaders. So I started out there and I asked people what was the worst pastor appreciation month that you or a friend there's your out, you or a friend had encountered? And you know, we got, I got some of what I expected. The entire month came and went and not even so much as a card came and went, and not even so much as a card with nothing in it. A card with nothing in it was given. I was like, okay, yeah, and there was yes, yes, and like, like and well, not really like in this case, but agreement, I guess I would say it would be. Agreement was offered.

Margie: 5:24

So somebody said what's pastor appreciation month, you know? And I kind of get it. It seems to create a bit of trauma for those of us in ministry. I, of course, always had somebody chime in and say they've, you know, they've never had a bad one yet and nobody they know has ever had a bad one yet. And I thought, well, you know, I mean, that's nice. I think that was the essence of why it was created at the get go.

Margie: 5:59

So you know, it's a matter here of people buying into this idea and some people don't seem to know that Pastor Appreciation Month is a thing and they would be that people. It's like expecting a Christmas present when people don't know. I don't know, that's maybe not a good analogy. It sort of is, but it isn't. But you know, if somebody didn't even know about Christmas which is pretty tricky to do, but if somebody didn't know about it, why would you expect to receive a gift, right? So, okay, I moved into.

Margie: 6:45

Then I thought I'd asked the the, you know, started out with the one question there and then I moved into what's the most amazing pastor appreciation gift you've ever received. I was hoping, you know, maybe somebody got a hot tub out there, I don't know. Or maybe somebody got a a trip to somewhere exotic, maybe to Monaco, I don't know and so I moved into that. You know, we got into a discussion about bath bombs, which you know, hey, I got, I got a whole education about bath bombs in here and obviously I think this was the female ministry leaders that were talking about bath bombs. Somebody got meat, somebody had pork chops, hamburgers, steaks, and they thought that was pretty amazing meat. I thought that's a pretty good one, especially at the going rate of meat these days. But then we got back into nobody.

Margie: 7:50

Somebody got nothing, and they had been involved with this congregation for a number of years. And you know, here, stand up and let's all clap for the ministry leader. Here stand up and let's all clap for the ministry leader and you know, I think there always should have at least been chocolate, not the cheap stuff. So another person said they get cards, baked goods, love offerings, and then they said that, gee, reading all this other stuff about what other pastors have received or not received has made them feel a little grateful for what they are getting. So, but you know, homemade cookies, pies, breads, that wouldn't be such a bad gig to get. So somebody got an extra day off given to them, which I thought, okay, that's pretty high in the amazing charts actually. I mean, I asked what they did with it. But you know, it was one of those days where you could just actually do your self-care and fritter time away or maybe actually do nothing. There's an idea Somebody got funds for a weekend away and they went to the nation's capital and here we go back to nothing. Nothing, and they had served the congregation since 1980. So that was a little disconcerting, as always. And then they've got, let's see, self-made gifts. That's a great expression of care. So, okay, we got a great list of things. I'm not sure which one I like the best. If it was a meet or the day off, those were pretty good ones, but people always want to add in here that they it came and went. A whole month came and went and nobody did anything. So so, lastly, I just kind of felt like I wanted to.Margie: 10:04

I went finally to this post and asked why is Pastor Appreciation Month such a hot button issue? Because it seems to garner a lot of attention with the podcast and same thing with commentary in the Facebook page, and so you know, I think I've hit on something and it did. It is of concern If you have sat with ministry leaders and they're talking about early in the month what they got, and you know you're waiting and looking and nothing and nothing and nothing. You know you kind of it's like Christmas I'm back to Christmas, but it's kind of like Christmas like your siblings got gifts and you got a lump of coal. It feels like that. That's what our emotions do with it. So I wanted to ask why they thought, why ministry leaders think it's a hot button issue and of course you know I got the why ministry leaders think it's a hot button issue and of course you know I got the.

Margie: 11:13

It's not an issue and God has graced us with appreciation and a lot of other kinds of appreciation goes on throughout the year and I think that's that's a fair comment, that really is absolutely fair, and sometimes we get hung up on this and we want that kind of appreciation or validation shown. You know, congregants might say, well, we pay you and I'm like, well, yes, that is true, but maybe maybe we just want that kind of validation because these are the people we serve and when we spend a lot of time creating messages and we work really hard to create messages that connect with our people, well then we just would like and it's not like when they go out at the end of a worship service and if you are one of those pastors that stand at the back, I don't know if we're shaking hands with everybody anymore, but you know, nice message, nice message, nice message that's different than and we appreciate that you serve us and that God has placed you here. One person here said why Under the why is this a hot button issue? Because we're supposed to have some super special connection with God and we live up on top of a pole where the world can marvel at our piety and faith.

Margie: 12:45

When the truth is, we are often more messed up than our congregants and there is a lot of truth to unpack to that. A lot. Actually, it's very true that the leaders are usually the ones that have the most trauma and usually we have connected with God's healing or God's power in our lives in pretty remarkable ways, and it's because of that very thing that we want to pass it on, that we want to be the ones that help others find what we have been so blessed to find. But that does not mean that we are not a little traumatized or the most messed up in the entire group. That is very true.

Margie: 13:42

And you know, I guess I'll add in here that if you feel like you have never identified those shadow side kinds of things that drew you, feel like you have never identified those shadow side kinds of things that drew you into ministry, it's a good idea to check into that, just so you're aware. I mean, we all carry baggage, but it's a great idea to know exactly what that baggage is, because that will help you should a congregant trigger you, which you know, that's like oh eye roll for me here. So I just want to mention that. Let's see, we all want to be acknowledged for what we do and that doesn't always happen. And here you go, I have to go back to remember, remembering who, who called me and why I do what I do it. It is for Jesus, but it can still hurt sometimes. Why does it still hurt? Because we are human, human, human. So a little bit more pushback on.

Margie: 14:45

I didn't really know that this was a hot button issue. I think it is with some people, but it's not with others. Obviously, somebody said that they thought it'd be interesting to see if gender made a difference and whether the congregation expressed gratitude or not. And women are expected to fulfill roles and expectations without being thanked, just like at home. Let's unpack that for just a second. And yeah, I don't know whether this means that.

Margie: 15:19

Perhaps you know, after I got to this point with I think it was around this comment or so, I thought maybe we need to be circulating a petition to not have this anymore. Is this helpful? I mean, is it? How good is it for thankfulness and appreciation, which that's why we have other holidays you know, mother's Day, father's Day where you can show your appreciation. But some people feel like maybe they would like to just do it just because they're appreciative, not because it's in that required month when you should be showing appreciation. I don't know, I have no idea this was an interesting post here that this was a female ministry leader.

Margie: 16:09

It says my husband takes it hard when they forget, you know, your husband's a great guy. I mean, that is so sweet there, you know, but that's a piece that we don't often think about, that our spouses are sitting there watching this as well, are sitting there watching this as well, and if no appreciation is shown, that's, that's a tough, a tough thing to take, absolutely a tough thing. So now we're blaming social media, which I thought you know. Yeah, we're all over that. We try to keep our finger on the pulse. But, you know, if you chronically see pastors thanking their congregations for you know, the vacation to monaco, or the amazing gifts, dinners and everything you know, that can make it tricky. You know, we're still human, we try not to take it so serious.

Margie: 17:07

This is when I did jump in and said you know, maybe we should start a petition to you know, let's say let's not do this anymore, let's not. You know. And I did get a couple of comments. Oh, they said it's like sweetest day, which you know, sweetest day is a hallmark holiday. No offense to the fine folks at Hallmark, but it is. It's like Grandparents Day, you know. It's a I don't know reason to buy a card, I don't know. I did get some yay on, a little bit of yay anyway, with let's pass a petition around. But the Hallmark holiday our idea was kind of interesting. Maybe if we ditched it and just said love and appreciation should be shown year-round, I mean, maybe this is something that all of us need to get better at showing appreciation to the people around us. Maybe this should, should be. You know, we all talk about Christmas and how we all have enough stuff. Maybe this is a point that could be made is that we could make a big list of people we need to show appreciation to, and you know if you can come up with 12, that's one person a month or something, and I think that might be a great way. It's not the solution to this to the pastor appreciation month, but this was a great comment.

Margie: 18:38

People want to be noticed and appreciated and, in my humble opinion, ministry leaders long for validation and since ministry is such a performance driven and the word job is in quotes, we constantly need to hear from someone that we're doing a good job, so we can then compare ourselves to other ministers and thus we can conclude whether we are successful or not. And that always reminds me of sitting in with a bunch of ministry leaders and we had to go around and they said oh yeah, we always are kind of carpent about stuff here. Let's go around the room and say a blessing that is in your life or something good. And we did get to one individual who decided that they were thankful for the $5 million addition that is going on at their church and I thought did you have to say the number? You know there are some churches here that the whole building and the whole shebang is not valued at that number that you just tossed out. So yeah, we kind of are a little comparison. We can say Don't compare yourself to other people, but sometimes we do, sometimes we do.

Margie: 20:00

So this person brought up, that same person brought up, and on that fretful and continual hamster wheel we keep running. Yes, we do, we compare ourselves and we are trying to decide whether we're successful or not, when really, I mean, this is a one-on-one thing between you and God as to whether you're successful and that's a pretty private thing. But they also added If you give me a gift card to Buc-ee's, that means I'm doing a good job. The land where there's 500 flavors of sunflower seeds and jerky, I don't know. And if it's an amount, well, that little sunflower seed thing was my editorial comment. But this person said if it's an amount more than my fellow minister, well shoot, I must be doing good. And I thought, wow, even 10 bucks to Buc-ee's would be just fun, just fun.

Margie: 21:00

So how do we find our validation in what we do? Our validation in what we do? And maybe all of us Christians, just as Christians, forget the ministry leader piece for a moment. Maybe we should be seeking just to validate other people when it is a real heartfelt thing, and maybe we need to be more grateful. I know a lot of people spend November doing that. You know we spend November saying 30 days of thankfulness or something, and you see people posting on social media about that. So we're not sure. Still, some are not sure.Margie: 21:41

It really is a hot button issue, but pastors do appreciate it when the congregation makes a point to do something to recognize a month, but it's not necessary to the rhythm of ministry. Yeah, you know, the local church does have a different calendar than hallmark. I'm just going to leave that there we really do have a different calendar going on and we do mark time in a different way. But yeah, it's nice, but it's uh, not necessary. Now here we get down to somebody being brutally honest and saying they're not comfortable with it really at all. They did serve a church and the church just did a more broad thing with thanking all the volunteers as opposed to singling out the leaders. So, hey, that's not a bad idea. Maybe we need to be more appreciative people in general.

Margie: 22:45

Somebody said something about pastors always getting perks and I thought did I miss the boss on this? What perks? What perks? What have I missed out on here? Maybe they feel that that's too much than to have pastor appreciation in addition to all those perks that we get. And, like I said, if you know where the perk box was or is you know, let me know, because I missed that when I was serving More people who served a church where it was not recognized and More people saying we could just bag the whole thing. Now, if we're saying that we could bag the whole thing, then the question is how could we then live into that in our congregation and just have it not be a thing at all? Which is why, at the end of the day here, I'm still wondering how you could send out a petition I don't even know where you'd send it to and either say you're going to or you're not going to. Now, keep in mind I just read something from Westpath the people that are an agency of the United Methodist Church, and on the list of that is you need to be doing this. So either our laity and the leadership of whichever denomination where God has planted your feet, either they need to get with the program and get the people to do this, Because somebody brought up along here, you know, as the pastor, you don't want to stand up and say, okay, everybody, now we have to do pastor appreciation month, because all y'all need to grow in appreciation, you know, and then after you say that you need to duck because the rocks and or rotten fruit are going to come flying at you and besides that, that's pretty awkward.Margie: 24:49

It's very awkward. It's very awkward for us when we have to say, okay, it's time for you to do your review of me and decide whether you're going to give me a raise or not. We get stuck doing a lot of awkward stuff and this is just awkward. At times. You know who likes awkward. Does anybody here like awkward? So I had one response. That was I mean, it was a big. It's a big, big paragraph and I liked it a lot, not because they said they wish it would be abandoned, but because there were a lot of other good thoughts in here.

Margie: 25:30

It says circumstances in individual churches and among individuals themselves is very nuanced and at times complicated. The reasons people offer appreciation or not are not consistent enough for one to measure their entire worth to a congregation, or even part of it, by the response to that annual observation. So how do you gauge your people by? Oh, my people are just. I don't know they're turds. Because they don't do this, we can't say that it's bad theology. Besides, this person went on to say I've been in ministry for 40 years and found many churches are simply unaware and, at the risk of looking like you're fishing for compliments, few of us are going to make that announcement anyway. Again, another person says it's like sweetest day easy to overlook, especially if you're not a pastor. Sometimes leadership changes can muddy the waters and people are still dealing with that change. Some groups in the church are supposed to. You don't remember the pastor and sometimes it just gets missed. It just gets missed, it says.

Margie: 26:49

When my spouse and I were poor and struggling kids in our first church, our small churches showered us in that month because they knew our need. This is kind of a good picture. Fast forward to our substantially advanced circumstance in a much larger context. Our current church doesn't officially recognize it at all. It leaves words of appreciation to individuals in the course of the year as persons are so moved. This includes no formal Christmas gift by the church to the pastors. All staff are remembered, however, to receive gifts of appreciation by a larger church on top of substantial pay and other perks of the job.

Margie: 27:35

Now here this person spells out the perks which I was like. Well, I can't recall getting any of those, but I've heard of people getting them unused. Football tickets, theater tickets, invites to the country club for dinner, individual Christmas gifts, honorariums etc. Would just be well unethical at most and just counter to our Christian witness at best. Hmm, then of course there are individuals who may use the opportunity to relate passive, aggressively towards the pastor. I thought, oh good heavens. By withholding acknowledgement and goodwill Bottom line, this ministry leader doesn't see it having consistent benefits to the soul of a pastor by observing the month consistent benefits to the soul of a pastor.

Margie: 28:29

By observing the month. I'd rather see our institutions and institutional leaders invest highly in mental health initiatives such as mandatory workshops and classes, boy. And then this person finished up by saying that we're sacrificing too many gifted leaders to pain, despair and isolation. So maybe, maybe the best pastor appreciation gift you could give somebody would be a series of sessions with a mental health counselor. But I you know this person had a lot of really good thinking going on in here, so they finished their thoughts with I completely acknowledge that many hardworking pastors are deprived of the encouraging words and need it as desperately as a cool drink of water. However, I found that focusing on meaningful individual relationships year-round and positive people who enliven ministry tend to have all the acknowledgement needed inherent in them. So I'm going to leave that there, and I still have questions about whether what should happen is we should not celebrate it or ask for mental health services, because I thought that was probably about the best suggestion so that we can keep ourselves in check and maybe so that we can hash around with a neutral person about whether and why Pastor Appreciation Month is or is not important to us and where we could file that to us and where we could file that. So thanks again for listening and I hope this has been helpful, or just another way that we can just walk together, journey together and hash around the issues and challenges and topics of the day.

Margie: 30:52

Hey friends, I want to thank you so much for listening to the Krabby Pastor podcast. As always, I do this for you so that you can take that next step towards some healthy self-care, but at the same time, I'm always interested in what you're interested about. So if you have some suggestions for me, you can email me at crabbypastor at gmail, and I for sure, for sure, will take that into consideration. And maybe you even have a great person that you would like for me to interview along the lines of something self-care or something that is connected to those topics and leadership. Even, for sure, drop me a Gmail and always, always. I appreciate you sharing this podcast with friends. I really love it when I hear that that's being done.

Margie: 31:51

So thank you, thank you in advance. How's that? I will say that, and I want to remind you also that there is a burnout symptoms test on my website at margiebryce dot com, and I will put that website in the show notes, because it is b-r-y-c-e margiebryce dot com and you know for sure you're going to want to check that out. And here's a moment of real confession here. The link to the burnout questionnaire was a little dysfunctional and I had some interesting surprises when I looked at the back end of what was going on on the website. So it is for sure repaired and I want you to go and get that burnout questionnaire. If you're wondering whether your lack of motivation, lack of interest and all that is burnout or not. This should help you make an assessment. So thanks again for listening, be blessed and don't forget, do your self-care.

Join me, Margie Bryce, your leadership coach focused on burnout prevention, on this eye-opening episode of the Crabby Pastor Podcast, where we unravel what's essential to find contentment and perseverance through Christ's strength, all while understanding that we are not built for limitless capacity. What if the very Bible verse you've been leaning on for endless strength is actually nudging you to recognize your limits? This heartfelt conversation guides you through maintaining sustainability to fight leadership burnout in both your ministry and personal life by acknowledging your human limitations.

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Margie: 0:01

Hey there, it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, where we talk about all things sustainability, whether it's sustainability in ministry, in your personal life and we acknowledge that the church is in a transitional time, so we hit topics there too that are going to stretch your mind and the way you lead, especially how you lead yourself, so that you don't become the crabby pastor. Hey there, friends, margie Bryce here with the Crabby Pastor Podcast, and I have something. Well, gee, I don't know, maybe maybe you won't find that. Well, this is not the most upbeat topic today, but I think it's an essential topic, so that's why I wanted to bring it to you. Just something to you know, keep you up at night, or you can think about in the middle of the night, or maybe just something that you can let roll around in your head, in your mind, in your heart. So I want to talk about being finite. And, yeah, okay, I think we sort of know that we are finite. I think we know we are people who serve the interests of an infinite God, and that is something we're all excited about.

Margie: 1:27

But I want to talk about today is our finitude. That would be our attitude towards the fact that we are finite, because it turns out that we get in trouble in this area and we just blow right past the fact that we are finite, and that gets us in trouble. It gets us. If you do this long enough, hard enough, fast enough, mostly long enough too, you can head to burnout. You will head to burnout.

Margie: 2:03

But I think about passages that we have used that somehow seem to propel us into ignoring the fact that we are finite, and this is something that we do with the scripture, and so I want to share with you Philippians 4.13. And that is a verse that says I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me. Now hear me on this. I am not negating what this says in any way, shape or form, but this is sometimes where we take our little exacto knife and we cut that out and frame it and put it on the wall, and that's not a terrible thing to put on your wall. It reminds us that God is with us, god strengthens us, but it's I can do, we'll take all things, all things, and it feels like there's no limits to that, and in some sense there isn't, but in some sense there most definitely is. So we can't forget ever that there is a context of this and that is Paul writing to the church that he established, and with some help for sure, at Philippi, and he's in jail and he's writing this.

Margie: 3:23

So you know, if I back it up, say to verse 10, Paul is saying but I rejoice in the Lord greatly that now, at last, your care for me has flourished again, though you surely did care, but you lacked opportunity. So they were attempting, the Church of Philippi was attempting to send things to Paul to provide for some care, and this is what he's speaking about. He says not that I speak in regard to need, for I have learned, in whatever state I am, to be content. That's a pretty big philosophical statement for somebody in prison. So not that I speak in regard to need, for I have learned, in whatever state I am, to be content, I know how to be abased and I know how to abound Everywhere and in all things. I have learned to be both full and has learned through Christ how to continue existing and existing in a good place within himself. Then he says I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.Margie: 4:49

So that passage is not the carte blanche rationale for why you can overload. Okay, I just want to make that point clear. There's times that we take that and use that a little out of context so we can be just as guilty as everyone else of doing that kind of thing. Now here's the thing If you are the kind of ministry leader who is visionary, this means that you can see what does not exist and you can see how it can be and come into existence. And if you're the right kind of visionary, you can chart your path, you can figure out all the steps that it's going to take you to bring whatever it is into existence. But at some point in your life, at some point in your life and I would say this is mostly in the maybe the fourth quarter, maybe the end of the third quarter of your life and, granted, we don't know exactly how long our lifespan is, you know, because we are finite. Okay, we do know that at some point, for the visionary person of which I am, you can see that, oh my, at some point a full stop is indeed coming, and you know that's okay. Maybe I'm waxing and waning a little morbid here, but I'm probably going to get worse with the morbid part before it gets better. But at some point we do have that sense and maybe it's when you encounter the death of a loved one.

Margie: 6:26

As ministry leaders, you know we do a lot of funerals and stuff and I've just done my husband's younger brother's funeral, which was really kind of unexpected really. But we do a lot of funerals and there's times that we step into that role of facilitating and helping a family through that process. Right, we do that. But there's a level of personal disconnect that can easily take place when it's not family or somebody close to us. I think the times that it is somebody close to us that we love and we care about that, it can really be rattling. For example, my husband has no living parents Neither one of us do at this stage of the game but when he lost his younger brother, that resonated and reverberated through his life, you know and mine in all honesty, in a much different way where you get the sense of, hey, there is a full stop coming. You know we are finite, we are finite beings. So that's one way it comes clearly, clearly into view.Margie: 7:45

So you know, this caused a weird conversation at the dinner table between my husband and I Very weird, I don't even know who brought it up. Probably me, probably me. I was saying it was All right, it was me. Now the reality is coming to play here. Okay, we're sitting at the dinner table and I said to him you know, one of the things I'm going to ask Jesus about in heaven is how we die. You know, is that basically, the way this system is set up, from my limited perspective, is that we all pop off the planet at totally random times and in totally random ways.Margie: 8:33

So then we got into a discussion about what our suggestion, because my husband said that to me well, what would you suggest? Which was a bad thing to ask me, really, because then my mind just just goes. I said, well, you know, we could say Jesus, maybe it would be a good idea if we all, just you know, died in our sleep. I said, of course. Then the unintended consequence of that is that your spouse say would know, at some point I'm going to wake up and there could be a dead person in my bed, and not that that hasn't happened in real life to some people, because I know people that it has happened to and that's got to be a whole other trauma. But so I said, well, okay, maybe that's not the best suggestion, and you know the whole sleep thing.Margie: 9:25

I thought it was a very peaceful kind of suggestion, though my other suggestion was maybe you should just die doing something that you love. And maybe that resonates from when I was on a cruise recently, and it was a cruise to Hawaii, and somebody fell in the dining area and they took him to a hospital and we found out like the morning that we were going to get off the boat. I was down at the toaster and two guys were talking and one guy was saying it was a terrible cruise and the other guy said, oh, I'm so sorry to hear that. And he said, yeah, my best friend died this morning, and I guess it was the guy that had fallen earlier in the week. And I said to my husband even then. I said you know, I mean, if you're gonna go, this is the way to go. Is, you know, died on a cruise to Hawaii? You know that's a pretty good read in your own bit, don't you think? And uh, so you could, you could die doing something you love.

Margie: 10:30

I said to my husband, however, I thought about this. I mean not extensively, but I've thought about what if you die doing something you love and, for example, I love to bike ride and I live in michigan, so that means what I. I can ride outside three months I'm exaggerating there but 47 degrees is the lowest that I will do an outside ride. So I have an indoor bike and here's the thing I said to him at the dinner table that day. I said you know I could be on my indoor bike and you know that's something I enjoy and something I love, and you know you could work this whole system.

Margie: 11:12

Then, if the goal was you're going to die doing something you love, you would avoid doing something you love to try to stack the odds in your favor or at least I would try to strategize that way. But I, if I'm on my indoor bike and I love doing that, here's the thing I said to my husband you could come home one day from work and I don't know what kind of state you'd find me in, because the indoor bike is the only place where I clip in and if you're a bike rider like serious, you know what that means. I don't do this on my outside bike because I'm just not that graceful, but on my indoor bike it makes me be able to go faster because your shoes are made to clip into the pedals, like you're permanently affixed until you snap your wrist and not your wrist, your ankle. Snap your ankle so that you can unclip. I mean, you have to do something. So I said, if I like, had some massive something, go bad. And I'm on my bike. I said, oh my gosh, would you come home and I? I'd still be clipped in. You know, that's the big thing.Margie: 12:21

Anyway, I think I decided, oh, never mind, I'm glad I'm not God. But at the the same time it really challenged me to think about once again my finitude, and this really is more about self-care than what you're thinking at the moment. I'm telling you, because if your finitude is non-existent in other words, you don't have any grasp at all that you are finite you're going to pilot your life in ways that are really not helpful and actually is going to suck the joy right out of your life. So I'm saying, if your finitude, if your attitude towards being finite is not anywhere near to be found, non-existent, whatever, you can run on fumes and not even be aware of it. In fact, if you go back through the Krabby Pastor podcast and listen to any of the back from burnout interviews that I've done.Margie: 13:28

The interesting thing is when I ask somebody hey, how did you know you were toddling towards burnout, they typically do not have any sense that they are headed in that direction and most frequently it is other people that say something to them. So you, if you have no sense that you're finite, you can more easily run on fumes than you ought to, which does and will lead to burnout. And you might be the type of person then, if you have no sense of being finite, that you're going to burn the candle on both ends and you're going to be running fast, hard and long with a very heavy load, and you cannot do that Forever. You cannot do that because you cannot do it forever, because you are finite. You can't run as if you have no limits. Our physical bodies are frail, you know. I think scripture says we're like the blades of grass One minute we're here and one minute we're not. You need to have a solid finitude, a solid attitude about the fact that you are finite.

Margie: 14:42

Now here I'm going to say something that I don't know if some would perceive this as heretical. Who knows, probably, but no, I don't really think it is actually. But I think that pray more and read your Bible more has limits for people who are finite, right, you can't pray more and have that impact like your cholesterol. You can't just sit and read your Bible more instead of eating healthy. You can't. You see where I'm going with this? There is we are frail, we're sturdy our bodies, our minds and the people that we are pretty sturdy. I mean, we literally do not know how many germs and bugs and bacteria and viruses hit us and our immune system just goes into what it was created by God to do and protects us. I mean, so we're sturdy, but we're also pretty frail.

Margie: 15:43

I remember the doctor saying to me would you like to see the scans of your mother's chest you know, like her lungs, because she died of lung cancer, and would you like to see those? Because she apparently had cancer everywhere, everywhere, and was unaware. And I had been asking the doctor enough nosy questions that he said, yeah, yeah, you want to come see these scans. And I did and I'll never forget staring at that originating spot in her lung which then, when you're breathing in and out, you literally send cells everywhere, cancer cells through your body and then they just lodge and grow wherever and that's how that goes. But I'll never forget, when I pointed to the originating spot and I said, well, because you know, the scans kind of scaled down a bit, it's not actual size. I said what size was that? And he said, oh, about the size of a nickel. So you know something the size of a nickel can take you down, and I never forgot that. It really reminded me how frail we are.

Margie: 16:53

So we're both sturdy and frail at the same time. We are masterfully and wonderfully made. So we do need to, though, acknowledge our finitude, acknowledge that there's limits to what our physical body, what our emotional state, what our mental capacity is. We have to really, really understand that and live as if we are finite and we do have limits. So we need to pace ourselves. If you do live with a decent sense of finitude, you know that you need to pace yourself and stop walking through the parking lot and two other places as if you are an Olympian speed walker, because that's crazy and you know what happens. Also and I say this because I've been guilty of this, because I'm pretty type A, but you know, you blow right past some stuff that you wouldn't. We miss stuff because we're blowing right past it and maybe there's some really great things that we are blowing right past because we are charging everywhere we go instead of pacing ourselves. Well, if you have a decent sense that you're finite, you really know God is in control and you really rest in that well and not feel as if you are in charge of everything everywhere all at once, because you know that really is God's spot in your life. I think if you know you have a decent sense of being finite, that you're going to live as if your physical body needs care and it looks like this.

Margie: 18:46

Let's talk about your car for a minute. What happens if you don't change the oil regularly? What happens if, like if you live in Michigan and they salt the roads and you know you never wash the car ever? You know at some point rust is going to become a problem. What happens in your car if it overheats? I want to say blow a gasket, but I don't know if that's a good mechanical analogy or not, because I'm not that savvy about the car mechanical stuff. So if you neglect your car, you are going to get less out of your car in the long run than if you did everything that you can to keep your car running and humming well and address problems actively as they arrive and take care of the car so that you can say, get the most miles out of it that you possibly can. And I realize you know there are some brands and types of cars that run better than others. You know, look at your review files and your review websites for those kinds of things. But the analogy still runs the same that you have to treat yourself as if you want to get the most out of it that you possibly can. So we know that our car is finite and just like our car is finite, so are we. And so my good word to you today is to really consider your finitude, your attitude towards being finite, to make sure that you step into the self-care that you need to, so that you can step into everything that God has for you to do. And if you're feeling better, you're going to enjoy and have an experience, the joy that is yours to have as you serve the risen Lord Jesus. And that's it for today. And that's it for today. So how do the pieces of your life fit together? Do they fit together well and things are humming along just fine, or are there some pieces that are tight or absent or just not fitting the bill.

Margie: 21:37

This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, which is a form of self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create, and there's a nifty, nifty analogy. Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about, so I'd love for you to join me to do that. To opt in, I'll need you to email me at crabbypastor at gmailcom. That's crabbypastor at gmailcom. So you won't want to miss this emailcom. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this. So, so make a plan to join me in the glass workshop.

Margie: 22:45

Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest, is burnout maybe? I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebryce dot com. That's B-R-Y-C-E, margiebryce dot com, and it is a burnout questionnaire free for you to download and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it, and that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I asked that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know, that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebricecom it's on the homepage of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.

Margie: 24:23

Hey friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook I make stained glass as part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the in the show notes, but I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders.

Margie: 25:28

Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the crabby pastor. Thank you.

Join me, Margie Bryce, on the Crabby Pastor podcast as we unpack the complexities of Pastor Appreciation Month. And yes, this is my annual rant with a goal of looking at preventing leadership burnout. And, I'm asking whether a designated time for gratitude is really necessary, or do we risk turning a heartfelt gesture into a Hallmark holiday? 

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This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

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Find regular support on my Facebook group: Building Sustainability in Ministry Leaders: Beating Burnout.

Margie: 0:01

Hey there, it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, where we talk about all things sustainability, whether it's sustainability in ministry, in your personal life and we acknowledge that the church is in a transitional time, so we hit topics there too that are going to stretch your mind and the way you lead, especially how you lead yourself, so that you don't become the crabby pastor. Hey there, friends, it's that time of year again it's Pastor Appreciation Month, and I know that resonates in many different ways with many of you, and so, in honor of Pastor Appreciation Month, I'm going to be sharing, twice in October, two different previous podcasts, that kind of address and get at some of that. Hopefully it will help put things in perspective for you. So just know that I'm thinking about you, rooting for you and praying for you as you navigate Pastor Appreciation Month. It is the end of September, which means well, all right, I'm not a fan of fall per se. I mean the colors are absolutely amazing, but, as they say, winter is coming. So I know what happens next after fall, and that's part of the trepidation about fall that I have, part of the trepidation about fall that I have. But even before winter is here, we have October and for some in ministry October is amazing, for others not so much. Why? October is Pastor Appreciation Month. Hey, you know this might be an episode that you want to share with your ministry colleagues, or maybe you want to share it with leadership in your church, you know, while it's still September, because you know it might not be quite as obvious that you're making a point, as the same way as like next week when it's really really, really October.

Margie: 2:40

Just saying, I have heard of pastors being gifted with trips to the Holy Land and on the other end of the spectrum there are pastors who get, maybe, a round of applause for Pastor Appreciation Month, and I got that once, the round of applause, you know, on a Sunday, not every Sunday for a month, but on one Sunday. They applauded a little more for me and I might have appreciated a cupcake along with that applause. But maybe if I got the cupcake would I have been crabby about that. Good question, good question, eh. That Good question, good question, eh. So this means congregations have an entire month, 31 days, in October, to express their gratitude to their shepherd. Well, technically under shepherd, because Jesus is the shepherd and ministry leaders follow Jesus's lead. So we are under that shepherd. But that's a point that really isn't going to contribute to what I want to say. I digress.Margie: 3:52

I did do a little research on the origin of pastor appreciation. It turns out that it is are you ready? A Hallmark holiday. So Hallmark began this in 1992 with a day, this Pastor Appreciation Day, and now that mutates into a whole month, because two years later, in 1994, focus on the Family picked up this ball and ran with it by urging people to express appreciation to their pastor or ministry leaders. This is, you know, I mean, in theory, this is a great idea, right, we should be appreciative and have gratitude for the people that are working hard to lead us closer to Jesus. Right to Jesus, right.Margie: 4:50

But herein lies the opportunity to be crabby about pastor appreciation, I mean, or not? I mean, isn't this just a little bit sad that pastor appreciation month holds the potential of triggering crabbiness? Hmm, so here is your rant warning, because I'm going to rant on behalf of some of the ministry colleagues I know who have endured all of October to then lament that they did not even receive a note card of appreciation for a cupcake, with or without the round of applause. Out here in the real world. There's actually a good number of average meaning non-superstar garden variety of pastors who are faithful and obedient day in and day out, and some would say, well, they knew what they were getting into when they accepted a call to ministry and my response to that is yeah, well, they knew what they were getting into when they accepted a call to ministry and my response to that is yeah, well, you know. Sort of All of us know that real life sometimes falls short of our expectations and my strategy is always to reduce my expectations, and that applies to Pastor Appreciation Month. Just saying I also need to say here, as this is my disclaimer, that any illustration that I'm using here, they are taken from reality, but no names are being used to protect both the guilty and the innocent. That's my disclaimer. I'm sticking to it.

Margie: 6:28

Lots of things to discuss here. For one, I think there was a good intention when this day was started by Hallmark. I need to stress that, you know, besides the opportunity to sell greeting cards, it's good to let people know they're appreciated. This is a good thing. But I do wonder you know about having an appointed time to show that appreciation, you know, and on the other hand, you got a whole month for that. It's not like you could miss the date, like maybe missing your pastor's birthday or some other heinous crime like that. That's when you have to zero in on a single day, not a whole month. Okay, that's a much broader target to go at. But should there be a time when it is required to express appreciation, or are there times you express that appreciation you know anyway, so a dedicated time is not required? Or is the paycheck a sufficient way to show appreciation? Or was the month created to help ensure that congregations get focused and intentional about doing this? I mean, when did it get so hard to say thank you anyway or let someone know that they're valued? When did it get so hard to do that?

Margie: 7:58

I mean, the life of a pastor is, it's kind of unique. I went from, you know, regular work life into the pastorate and it's a different existence, different type of lifestyle, you know, but it's really not that far from, but certainly not as lavish as, say, the life of a baseball player. You know, pastors can get moved around, you play on the farm team, you're an associate, or children youth, until you're good enough to go to the big leagues and be a senior pastor. But then until you're important and valuable enough and maybe have an agent, I might add, you could end up getting traded to play for a different team or, in this case, a different congregation. Sometimes relocations is your idea and a lot of times it's not, depending on whether you're serving in a denominational structure or not. And this seems to be less of a big deal when you are a single individual, although that has its own dynamic. But when you add in family life and now you're talking about a whole relocation process, not just for yourself and your work life but impacting the career potentiality of your spouse and new school situations for children.

Margie: 9:24

And of course there's always packing and unpacking. One friend of mine had nightmares for a long time about that screeching sound that the tape gun when you're packing boxes makes. It kind of goes, and they kept hearing that you know as they were packing and she was traumatized by that. Anyway, then you have to get reoriented to a whole new town. You know a new dentist, find a new doctor and always you know, finding out where the local Kohl's is. All of this creates like a disorientation at times and it takes a while to learn the lay of the land.

Margie: 10:07

Hey friends, the Krabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook. I make stained glass as part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the show notes. But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders. So, as some would say, well, we pay them and they knew what they were getting into. We don't need to do that appreciation stuff, and I do know a pastor friends who, talking about pay, who qualify for government aid programs because their pay level is at or below the poverty level. Churches need to know what their local poverty level is, although paying your pastor just above that is not exactly what I'm going for here, you know, because if you pay them just above the poverty level, you still could cramp somebody's ability to function well in life and support their family and it's also not a great thing to say and I've kind of encountered this in some church structures like how cheap can we get them for? Those are not the ways to show appreciation. I'm just saying how about looking at your area's median income and looking at the poverty level? And personally I like a pay scale on a chart. It just kind of it's a little helpful. So going more into the pastor's lifestyle as a means of thinking about appreciation and what it looks like.

Margie: 12:27

There are times when pay is an issue for a pastor. You know livable wage is kind of something I hear chatted about. You know it's hard for pastors to ask for what they need, not what they want. But hear me, you know I don't know. Do we need? I used to say this to my kids we need to have the needs versus wants discussion again. So it's hard for pastors to ask for what they need. And I will say this part to pastors, to ministry leaders you got to think of the person coming behind you. You know, if you opt out and you say I never need a raise because somehow you sense that that's the way you ought to go, if you opt for that, you never have a raise. You are now training the church to never give raises and that's not exactly helpful for the next person coming along, I got to say. Sometimes pastors need to do the hard thing and point out what's acceptable and what's not. I mean people families, ministry families have got to live Now, on the other hand, it is tricky to ask for a raise. This is very awkward stuff. So one way to show appreciation for your pastor is to attend to the aspect of pay and pay increases so that your pastor is not put in the place where they are the ones who have to bring this up Because it's awkward, it's very awkward to do.Margie: 14:06

And some others might say this Well, we provide housing for them. And some others might say this well, we provide housing for them, even though in some places, painting the wall anything other than white seems like a federal crime. Not to mention homes that are not kept safe, because I did have a colleague literally lose an eye over black mold in a parsonage. I also know that some pastors didn't respect the property they were given to live in. Now I'm not sure whether this is a passive-aggressive thing or what, because sometimes the pastors and the trustees and the parsonage, you know it's like a that's like an unholy triad or something and it can be an issue, but for me I was second career in ministry. So when I moved into a parsonage you know, after selling my own home and being a homeowner for many years I met with the two trustees of the very first parsonage that I was going to live in. You know, trustees are those who typically take care of the parsonage and it was kind of interesting because one played good cop and the other bad cop and they told me a disturbing story of a pastor cutting down a refrigerator box and then filling it with cat litter and keeping that in the basement next to the furnace. You know where the furnace brings in air and it goes through the whole house. Anyway, I thought seriously. Anyway, after they told me a couple of pastor horror stories with the parsonage, they actually asked me this question what is your philosophy of the parsonage? Which I can guarantee you I have never had to write about any such thing in seminary or give that any amount of thought. But anyway, but having been a homeowner over the years, I said well, I think my job is to at least maintain the home in such a way that its value is protected. And they kind of seem surprised about that.

Margie: 16:07

Another way to show appreciation to your pastor on an ongoing basis is for someone someone to make sure that ministry leaders actually take their vacation time. Some ministry leaders think it's some kind of badge of holiness if they don't, and they're always there to serve. They're always there, but at the end of the day, that isn't going to serve them well, because we are just, you know, grass in the field. One moment we're there, the other we're not. We are these frail beings and we need that recreation time. Some pastors seem to have trouble doing this, and if your pastor is getting crabby and a cupcake or a trip to Kohl's doesn't cut it, then perhaps you need to check out whether they are overdue for a vacation. Another way to show appreciation to your pastor is by not calling them on their day off, as if it's not their day off. I'm not talking about life or death emergencies. I'm not talking about that at all, because your pastor definitely would want to attend to those. I'm talking about respecting their day off boundary.

Margie: 17:24

Contrary to what some people think, being a pastor is not a 24-7 gig. Good for the Gen Xers and the Millennials who have pursued a better life balance. That should always, always have been the case. So the goal of any pastor is to help your congregation build a relationship with Jesus and basically work their people into not needing them spiritually and I'm not saying they don't want to do their job, I'm saying they're trying to grow their attachment to Jesus so that they become spiritually self-dependent on Jesus. You know, because people, your people, become disciples who follow Jesus and then they become Jesus for one another. You know this speaks some to visitation teams and why it doesn't always have to be the pastor. You need to train your people to be Jesus for one another.Margie: 18:38

So I'm going to finish this segment up by saying this in addition is that pastors really don't want to see a member of the congregation get up on Sunday and say, hey, everybody, we're going to send notes of encouragement to the pastor. I mean we're going to send notes of encouragement to the pastor. I mean people need to be a little more smooth than that so that pastors can understand and just have a moment where they know that they're appreciated. At the end of the day, if the congregation comes up with nada for Pastor Appreciation Day, know that you are loved and cared for by the Lord, god Most High, and yeah, it would be great to have that somehow obvious through other people who have, you know, skin on and you can actually see it. Or in the case of a cupcake, and you can actually see it. Or in the case of a cupcake, you can actually taste it.

Margie: 19:41

But just look for other opportunities and ways that your people do express appreciation to you, not just in October, because I go back and forth still about whether you know the appointed month is helpful or not, and you can talk to me some about that. I'd love to hear what you have to say. You could email me at margie M-A-R-G-I-E at margiebrice, and that's B-R-Y-C-E dot com. Talk to me some about that. Is a designated time helpful or not? Because I know for some pastors whose congregations aren't functioning in that that it can be a disappointing time. I understand that, but on the other hand, maybe there are times and places where you can see God reaching down and encouraging you in what you do, and I would just that would be my prayer for you that if the congregation can't seem to manage that at the appointed time, that God would show you even now how valuable and appreciated that you are to the kingdom.

Margie: 21:06

Hey friends, I want to thank you so much for listening to the Crabby Pastor podcast. As always, I do this for you so that you can take that next step towards some healthy self-care, but at the same time, I'm always interested in what you're interested about. So if you have some suggestions for me, you can email me at crabbypastor at gmail, and I for sure, for sure, will take that into consideration. And maybe you even have a great person that you would like for me to interview along the lines of something self-care or something that is connected to those topics and leadership. Even for sure, drop me me a Gmail and always, always, I appreciate you sharing this podcast with friends. I really love it when I hear that that's being done.

Margie: 22:05

So, thank you, thank you in advance. How's that? I will say that. And I want to remind you also that there is a burnout questionnaire on my website at margiebryce dot com, and I will put that website in the show notes because it is b-r-y-c-e, margiebryce dot com and you know for sure you're going to want to check that out. And here's a moment of real confession here. The link to the burnout questionnaire was a little dysfunctional and I had some interesting surprises when I looked at the back end of what was going on on the website. So it is, it is for sure, repaired, and I want you to go and get that burnout questionnaire if you're wondering whether your lack of motivation, lack of interest and all that is burnout or not. This should help you make an assessment. So thanks again for listening, be blessed and don't forget, do your self-care.

How do we navigate the turbulent waters of church polarization and foster unity? Join me, Margie Bryce, along with Michael Bischoff from Soul Leader Resources, as we tackle this pressing issue on the Crabby Pastor podcast.

Support the show

This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Margie: 0:01

Hey there, it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, where we talk about all things sustainability, whether it's sustainability in ministry, in your personal life and we acknowledge that the church is in a transitional time, so we hit topics there, too that are going to stretch your mind and the way you lead, especially how you lead yourself, so that you don't become the crabby pastor. And it's Margie Bryce with the Crabby Pastor podcast, here with you today, and I think we're going to get divisive. No, I don't know, maybe you just have to listen and decide for yourself. I'm here with Michael Bischoff, with Soul Leader, and we're going to talk about this crazy era in which we find ourselves. I always like to refer to any election season as that silly season. Some people take offense at that, but I do have a spiritual gift that you should be aware of, and that's the ability to offend everybody in the room, regardless of which way they lean on any particular issue at the same time. I really think that's some kind of spiritual gift.

Michael: 1:21

That's awesome.Margie: 1:22

Yeah, isn't it? It's just kind of like my disclaimer now, so I'm going to annoy you. You know, what I mean, right? So, michael, you've been here with us before, but please take a moment to reintroduce yourself and tell us how you serve the church.

Michael: 1:40

Yeah, thanks.

Michael: 1:42

I just want to chime in here because one of my mentors used to say you're going to need to forgive me by what I don't mean by what I say, because else we're stepping on toes all the time, right, and people assume we mean something when we often don't.

Michael: 1:55

And yeah, my name is Michael Bischoff. I am the founder and kind of lead consultant and coach with Soul Leader Resources, an organization I founded 24 years ago, and I did that because, after being in pastoral ministry many years, I pastored for 30 years in total and also did Soul Leader at the same time but I just found there were so many issues that pastors and leaders and missionaries and denominations and seminary students were struggling with and I wanted to be able to come alongside and see if I could offer some help. That seemed to be really a gift that God had given me was to come alongside leaders and encourage them, and I've been doing that for 24 years at Soul Leader and even some years before that, and still get to hang out with a whole bunch of churches and even do some interim pastoring in them at times and absolutely love being able to bring encouragement to leaders.

Margie: 2:52

Well, thank you so much for being willing to chat again, and I know we had talked about a list of things the first time you were on and this topic of well, we kind of have lumped a few things together here. But the divisive time that we're in, the polarity that we seem to experience, and whether it's an election, whatever the topic is, and how can we help pastors to think a little differently about this, to help them push through and persevere through these times? I mean even because the topics you gave me are kind of post-COVID related, but some of this was really rampant in the COVID era. You know, all you had to do was either show up with or without a mask somewhere.Margie: 3:48

And it just people got really wicky about the whole thing and I sort of understand. I mean, I had friends telling me that they were wearing a mask and for heaven's sakes, you never know whether somebody has had a double lung transplant the month before. You just don't know. But people would come up behind them and one of my friends in particular does have a serious autoimmune thing and people would come up behind them and kind of cough at them. These are people not wearing a mask. And I thought, well, that's just.

Margie: 4:23

I mean these are people not wearing a mask and I thought, well, that's just. I mean, what do we have to say about people?

Michael: 4:29

Right, right, well, yeah, it makes me think if we go all the way back to scripture, to John 17, right In the high priestly prayer and Jesus prays the Lord that they may be one as we are one, and there's this wonderful, beautiful prayer for unity. And then you think of the church from that time on post Jesus, first century, second century and it's not long before the groups just start to divide. And I don't know what it is currently, but every year the handbook on denominations comes out and it's somewhere above 40,000 different denominations. So we've split it apart pretty good and we've not done a very good job at being one. So you know, throughout all of time I think we've always struggled with unity.

Seeing things the same way, we want to be different and we like to disagree with others and even sometimes make the other an enemy. Recently I heard someone saying that if you study I think it's sociology from a tribalism perspective, that in order to protect the tribe you always need an enemy. And that makes me realize much of what has happened in the church is sometimes identifying what we think is the enemy that's going to harm us, destroy us, lead others astray, and so much of our energy is just put into that, making that person the other or the enemy, or assuming they're against us, rather than starting from a place of unity, like I think Jesus wanted us to do in John 17. So I kind of smile right when we even think about COVID, because while it did get worse during COVID right the polarization, if we want to just call it something many of our churches had a good sense of unity prior to that. We'll just talk about our individual local churches because we know denominations have split over time over so many issues. It's not even funny.

Margie: 6:25

No, I got stuck. I got stuck back at your thing about the handbook of denominations. There's a handbook of denominations.

Michael: 6:33

Oh yeah, and it's published every year. I don't know if it's still as it used to be, but every year it would come out. Why? Because there's probably a couple thousand more and so yeah, so, but if we focused even on our own church, it did seem to be easier in a post-pandemic era to find unity, at least in our church, and that's not always the case. But we kind of tolerated people who were different than us, or at least we knew there were people with different political views and some had maybe even different doctrinal views, and they saw things differently. We just seemed to have more acceptance for each other. And then something happened in the midst of the pandemic, and I think there are some root causes to that, and we can talk about some of those that created in the average local church greater polarization than most leaders had ever seen, or definitely what most leaders felt equipped to deal with, and that created this problem

.Margie: 7:26

Yeah, and it does get to the place and the point with some people where you're unsure how much you should or could say with them and I think that that puts up barriers to relationship, which is that's sad.

Michael: 7:49

It is. Yeah, it is sad Because, right, you have people on one side that are trying to be sensitive and do the most loving thing toward those around us was thinking that we're living out that biblical mandate to love our neighbor as ourself and be cautious and careful, and sometimes that meant putting a mask on or getting a vaccination or whatever, or not meeting. And then you have those that don't really want to be told what to do. It's not that they are trying to be unloving, but maybe the greater value comes along in independence and not having government or anybody really tell you what to do. So freedom is important to them.

Michael: 8:28

And now you've got the makings of what polarization is looking for, right, differences of opinion like that, and it just I think it was the perfect breeding ground for polarization to happen.

Michael: 8:42

And you throw into that to certain types of leaders that realize that if you came at things in a well, maybe a more authoritarian way, that others would then flock to that, because they wanted someone to tell them what to do or probably a better way to say it, they needed someone to calm their anxiety.

Michael: 9:02

And there's been sociological studies that have been done that I think are pretty fascinating. There's a Canadian psychologist and professor named Bob Altemeier who, in a book he wrote, called the Authoritarians, and he writes that when there are high levels of anxiety and stress, somewhere in the neighborhood of 30% of the population are attracted to authoritarian leaders who calm their anxiety. So now again we have the makings for polarization, because those that really feel the need for their anxiety to be calmed are going to look for a certain type of leader that's going to speak with authority or strength or truthfulness or, you know, not compromise. They're just looking for that. And many churches grew who had that type of leader, or I'm going to even say certain leaders chose to become that kind of leader, realizing that they could see growth with that tactic.

Margie: 9:59

And you know, this gets really kind of weirdly interesting, because I was at a training Enneagram training and it was with Suzanne Stabile, and the topic was asked which one of the numbers is the most prevalent in the culture? And actually it's a six and these people are, and she said it was more than 50%. And I thought, what Are you kidding me? And so then, because I come from a marketing, communications and an advertising background before ministry, I started thinking, oh my gosh, this is why you see advertising the way it is. You know, hurry and get this or you're going to miss out, or it's just definitely fear based because it goes at that. And then if you throw in things like freed men and family systems theory and you look at people's anxiety and how well they are able to calm themselves or not calm themselves, you know it's easier just to have somebody take care of that for you. And Friedman would probably say we're a society in regression right now. Anyway, that things, that this is just the way things are headed right now, where people are challenged. And you would think because I think it's reasonable to consider that perhaps church would be a place to go to have your anxieties and your fear.

Michael: 11:37

Yeah.

Margie: 11:38

Not so much dealt with. I don't want to say dealt with. Dealt with, I don't want to say they it is. It would be an outlet for you to sit for a minute and really put things into proper perspective with your relationship with God.

Margie: 11:56

And who do I really think? But quite often we don't stop long enough to do that kind of work in terms of fear. But so then the next best thing is, if I don't want to manage myself, handle myself properly, I'm going to look for somebody to do it for me. And I was always told that any good pastor is not going to let you try to ride their coattails to heaven, but any good pastor is going to push you to a relationship with Christ.Michael: 12:30

Yeah, yeah, that's good. You know it's sad because you know I've heard many times that the number one command in scripture, or the command used more times than any other I've never done this study to see if it is, but I assume that it is is fear not or do not fear, right. Scripture tells us to not fear and yet we tend to live in such an environment of fear and that's really something I did see in both the pandemic world we lived in and in the post-pandemic world. Still there's a much higher degree of fear. I hear that in the kinds of sermons and messages that are being preached, because we work with a lot of churches, a lot of pastors, so I'm trying to listen for what's out there. I hear it even in the way that worship is led and the things that worship leaders might say are those that are praying from the front Like what I need.

Margie: 13:19

some examples here of this.

Michael: 13:21

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I must not go to a church that does this, but Well, that's probably a good thing that you don't right.

Michael: 13:28

But it's easy when you get up in front of people. It's easy to kind of play into that fear by somehow making what's out there seem more fearful than it really is. And that's what I hear kind of in prayers often is oh God, it's so bad out there, right, it's so scary. We have so much to face and we don't know if we're going to be able to do it. And we need you to rise up and conquer it all, rather than to realize that if the kingdom of God is active and living around us, that's a perfectly safe place to be. That was a quote that Dallas Willard used to say when he'd talk about the divine conspiracy. He would just literally say and it's the one he got the most pushback on. Actually that he would say is that living in the kingdom of God is a perfectly safe place to be.

Michael: 14:19

Yet that doesn't work well if you want people to live in fear and when you realize that if you create and increase their fear, they might need you more, they might need your church more, they might give more money to your church or they might believe what you say or follow you.

Michael: 14:38

So again, this is the way. Maybe an authoritarian leader might use fear as a real or concocted enemy to help people follow more strongly, and that's not helpful because that increases the polarization right. And then I think one of the things I see many pastors come to me and in our coaching or in our relationships or training or whatever they're saying, they don't know what to do with all the people in their church that come to them and are asking them to preach on topics, or to preach on certain topics with a different kind of authority than they typically do. Why? Because the people are fearful and they want their pastor to more boldly speak about certain things that didn't happen to the extent four, five, six years ago that we see it happening today. And now many people not only ask for it, but there's a little bit of an agenda, even that Pastor, if you're not going to do this.

Michael: 15:37

A little bit of an agenda, even that pastor, if you're not going to do this, I'm going to go down the street to the church that is doing this, once again creating polarization, because if certain kind of people leave and they go to a certain kind of church that's down the street with a certain kind of leader saying a certain kind of thing, now what that leaves behind is a different kind of person that's willing to stay at that church. See so even the kinds of churches that we see have different constituencies with less diversity in them because of this polarization.

Margie: 16:05

Well, that's disturbing.

Michael: 16:07

It is. On a number of levels.

Margie: 16:10

And I remember pastoring in my first church and one of the congregants did come to me and just kind of made a casual observation and said, pastor, you don't preach on any of the social issues. And I said well, you know, I will when we get to the place where people understand what it means to be a disciple of Jesus. I said because there's people who have been in church more than 20 years and if you ask them to describe what it means to be a disciple of Jesus, you know you hear like the crickets chirping. And I said, and I find that very, very disturbing. So, you know, when you got to the end of your sermon, sermon and you're going to give the, here's what it looks like because of all the rest of the stuff I already just said to you, here's what it looks like to be a disciple. In response to that, you know, then that would be the picture that I would paint. And I thought, you know, if we were to really understand what it means to be disciples, I think a lot of conversations would look differently. I mean, I don't project to say how or anything.

Margie: 17:25

One of my seminary professors did say that the church in North America is in a crisis of immaturity. Crisis of immaturity and I thought, well, you're my new best friend just for saying that. Because I thought, how is it? You've been to church that long and you don't understand some of the real basics of the Christian faith? Instead, it becomes more about social principles and I'm actually starting to see and I don't know if this is connected to the election cycle or season that we're about to start or are in, or something that people are saying, well, I'm not going to get into, that's a cultural issue and I'm not going to get into that. And I thought, oh my goodness, I've never, ever, heard those words fall out of people's mouths. It's rather shocking.

Michael: 18:20

Yeah.

Margie: 18:21

I don't know if that's going to stem the tide with some of the divisiveness I mean it's rampant on social media and here's where they go on social media Unless you believe as a Christian in the same way that I think about being a Christian, then you're not a Christian. And even Christ said you can't say to another person I think it's Raca R-A-C-A, meaning the Margie Bryce translation of that word is good for nothing. You can't say somebody's not good for anything, right, no use for you. Um, so it really calls us to really examine some things it does how do you know you, I am sitting under.

Margie: 19:07

I'll know I'm sitting under an authoritarian leader when you have any kind of oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good way to ask for it. So then, pastors could say am I this? I don't know.

Michael: 19:21

Yeah, no, I think it's worth our study. I know this can be exhausting for pastors that are already trying to shepherd their church and teach and lead. But to dive into a topic that really none of us have ever been equipped to study, that feels really exhausting. So I get that from the front. I've been even tell to study. That feels really exhausting. So I get that from the front. I've been even tell me that how hard it is. But I have found to at least get minimally educated.

Michael: 19:43

You know that book by Bob Altemeier that I mentioned. You can Google his name and I think it's even free as an online download. Another book Brian McLaren wrote a book called the Second Pandemic and authoritarianism in your, your Future and that's a real cheap or I don't know if it's free or real cheap on his website, but I found that just a real good summary. That was helpful to me in understanding some things, because he pointed out even some things like that. Authoritarian leaders are characterized by the first thing we talked about already fear. They know how to use fear for their own ends or create divisions with an in-group and an out-group. So if you see a leader doing that and almost like creating people pointing fingers that those people are in the out-group, definitely ridiculing them. Well, we might not see that in the church quite as much you do to a certain extent, but we definitely see that in the political realm Name-calling, finger-pointing, really unkind comments being said. So look for things like that.

Michael: 20:43

Distorting or distracting from the truth is another characteristic. That's very common Intentional misinformation, if you sense a leader is giving information but your gut is saying really I'm not sure if that's true, or maybe you fact check it, because we can all do that pretty quickly now by uh, you know, just our phones right in our lap. We might be listening to someone and we can fact check that pretty quickly. Or the suppression of dissent is another characteristic. Um, if someone questions their behavior, that leader's behavior an authoritarian leader doesn't want to be questioned, so they're going to try to put down that dissent. There's not an ability for people to have different opinions in that environment.

Michael: 21:28

But I think the church is a place where people from all kinds of opinions can come and share. Again, polarization makes everything about either or it's either this way or that way, and this way is right, or you, which is usually our way, and that way is wrong, which is their way, so you better choose our way. But it's not about either or it's about both end, and I think looking at the gospel you realize, kind of like you were saying earlier, margie, the gospel is a more of a both end gospel, where it's not about exclusivity or exclusion. It literally is about Jesus, who was inclusive of everyone. I mean, that's my favorite definition for the kingdom of God, it's the availability for all people, that heaven's available for everyone, and I think that's a beautiful way to be able to look at it and to understand the gospel.

Michael: 22:21

I think if you go look in Mark 1 15, you'll see Jesus describing the gospel as the availability of the kingdom of God for everyone. Well, to me that's a very inclusive thing. So, just by its very nature, polarization excludes and chooses a side and creates fear and distorts truth and creates division and calls names and oh right, that's a problem of discipleship. You did say it well, we are incredibly immature. Another way would be our formation, our spiritual formation, or what I like to call our holistic formation, is badly lacking and we really need to address it at that level.

Margie: 23:00

Sure, and as you were going down your list of many things there, I was wondering this looks like a list of how to know you're in a cult. And then I wondered, as you're speaking, I'm wondering is this like narcissism too thrown in? And definitely it's a big stew and you just stir it all up and it just doesn't make anything.

Michael: 23:26

Yeah, I would say not every narcissistic leader is an authoritarian leader, but probably most authoritarian leaders are narcissistic leaders, if I were to say it kind of in one way that I see so and there's some good books that have been written on that. Um, I help churches that have either had to recover from leaders with degrees of narcissism or whatever the case. So you can actually google that. Chuck de gro's written a really good book on that. Poles is an author also who has written a good book on that subject, on narcissistic pastors. So if you sense any of that, if you're well one, if you are a leader, first we got to take the log out of our own eyes. I've had to do this many times and look for my own narcissism right, my own tendency to use other people for my own ends in order to validate myself, and and, and sometimes we were trained to do that. I know I was trained to be a narcissistic leader, so it really starts with us.

Margie: 24:28

You were trained you think you were trained to be in a.

Michael: 24:30

I was trained Not. Yeah, not consciously. Yeah, I didn't take narcissism one-on-one.

Michael: 24:37

I would just say in my early years of leadership development and in seminary, as well as just even the church that I was a part of, so many leaders were very highly narcissistic and the way they trained young leaders and the way they trained young leaders, I think, drew out those things in them, including me. And I didn't know that until I left that church and then was in my first full-time ministry experience and then crashed and burned in eight months of clinical depression, which I think is a story I told when I was on your podcast before, so people can go back and listen to that podcast if they're interested in hearing that story. But that caused me to realize my own narcissism. So I think, like Jesus said, take the log out of your own eye. We have to start with ourselves. Become more self-aware, be reflective to see. Am I creating some of the polarization? Am I causing some of these problems? So leaders need to do that definitely and to watch others in the church that have influence that might do that. That helps us be good shepherds, because I think we have more people potentially in our churches creating polarization as well.

Michael: 25:44

But then the other level obviously is just those sitting in the pew, if you will, the lay people of the church, those that attend, for you, if you're one of those folks, to be highly aware of the leaders that you submit yourselves to and that you realize that there are a lot, a lot of leaders in the Christian church with high degrees of narcissism, and it's a sad reality, but the statistics have shown it to be true.Michael: 26:10

It's why we have a lot of division in churches and a lot of problems. It's one of the things I've committed my ministry to doing is helping churches get healthy and recover from things like that, and it's sad but it's true. It's part of the human condition and so knowing what to do about it is extremely important. But I do think so. I'm glad you brought it up because, yeah, the narcissistic element in leadership definitely contributes to polarization and what happens there, and it doesn't mean they might not grow a great church, because I think some of the biggest churches in existence have been grown that way by highly narcissistic leaders, and that's true of companies as well. Narcissistic leaders make great leaders to grow things big, but I don't think they're leading in the way of Jesus and they leave a wake behind them.

Margie: 27:00

And bigger isn't always better.

Michael: 27:10

No, no, I know that flies in the face of a lot in North America right, right, right, especially Texas.

Margie: 27:12

No, you know I'm not. You know I'm the state of Texas here. But I think what was sad for me, having served in the ranks of the United Methodist Church, is I had a congregation that was mixed. I had people that would come to me and we'd have conversation and I could tell from their conversation that they perceived that I was well safe to talk to and they were more conservative leaning. And then I would have people come to me who are more liberal leaning and I they felt very comfortable and safe to talk to me and they could they assume that I was more liberal, leading too, you know. And I thought, well, isn't this kind of interesting here that they don't seem to know for sure? And that was by design on my part, because I'm pastor over everybody that was there and I was busy banging the discipleship drum.

Margie: 28:14

This is what it was to be a disciple was busy banging the discipleship drum.Margie: 28:18

This is what it was to be a disciple.Margie: 28:20

The sad thing is was that I knew there was coming a moment when you would have to pick a side, a or B, and I was incredibly sad for the congregations that were mixed, that they were going to be the ones that would struggle the most, and sad because they had figured out how to do life together and it was okay.Margie: 28:42

You know, and I thought I'm sure Jesus is crying in a corner somewhere. You know, over things like that, over how we kind of stumble over ourselves and undermine and and all that kind of thing. I know for me ourselves and undermine and all that kind of thing. I know for me, now that I'm not in pastoral ministry, I'm pretty picky about the kind of leader that I want to let have influence over me and I've been blessed that I've been in places where there is an aspect of humility that is not flashed around like it's a badge of honor or something, but just very subtly. You can just pick up that there, that this is a person that has gotten understanding of humility and and kind of naturally exudes it.

Michael: 29:33

Right.

Margie: 29:34

But again, you know we don't see that in the political realm Right anywhere and I understand you do have to have a bit of an ego to say that I'm going to stand up here and say stuff to all y'all. There is that piece of it, but at the same token, as leaders who are following after God's purposes. There still has to be that understanding that I'm up here over all y'all, but I am under the influence of the Lord, God most high.

Michael: 30:08

Right, right.

Margie: 30:10

Oh, that's. That's an ideal, maybe, I don't know.

Michael: 30:15

Yeah, yeah, no, it's so true, I mean, and we see it so clearly in the political realm as you were talking. It just made me think. You know, in our country we're really poor at choosing something that's in the middle. We're better at going oh, I don't like this way. We've been governed for four years or eight years or whatever. So I'm going to swing to the other side, or let's bring in that kind of leader, and then we go back and forth from pole to pole. Right, there's very little in the middle, we don't have a strong third party government, and so that's the way our political system just works, and that's why it's just so extreme in the way that goes back and forth, rather than trying to find a more moderate approach to many of the issues. That would be much healthier if we were able to find that happy middle. But in churches I think church leaders can definitely make that choice we can seek what's sometimes being called now the courageous middle, right? Because if there are poles and we've seen stream polarization what does it look like to find the courageous middle and live in that space, rather than being either or, like I said earlier, for it to be both and, and that's challenging. It definitely has its challenges, but I think it is such a good goal to be able to look and see how to, rather than choosing an extreme view on this or that.

Michael: 31:39

How can I actually talk about all sides in a way that shows where the wisdom really lies and maybe what God's wisdom is in that, or allow people then to have the freedom to choose what their leaning might be and then to help people coexist together with some different views? I even find it funny that churches you know have such a strong or long doctrinal statement. Right, here's our belief statement, doctrinal statement, and they post that on the website. It's often one of their first pages on their website and I thought you know I'm not sure how healthy that is, because what that says is then, unless you believe every you know jot and tittle of this doctrinal statement, you're not welcome here.

Michael: 32:25

Do you really want to say that some churches do?

Michael: 32:27

I get it, but how different could it be if you just simplified it down to something like the teaching of Jesus and the apostles? Or you know that we believe that the kingdom of God is a very broad and inclusive space, like I was talking about earlier, when Jesus defines the gospel in Mark 1 and 15. What if we were to say that and then allow differences to coexist without contention, so that people don't call each other names, raka, like human or whatever right? But we tried to cultivate a spirit of openness, humility, listening, you know, a good active listening, question, asking, sitting with attention, being able to have discussion, learn from each other. One phrase I've seen used more recently now by some churches that are trying to do this is a third way, that, rather than it having to be that way or that way, we're going to identify as a third way space that realizes we're going to have people on that side and we're going to have people on that side, and I think that's a really good way to look at it.

Margie: 33:32

So yeah, or we could just call it via media.

Michael: 33:36

Yeah, the via media right.

Margie: 33:38

They did that in England right when they couldn't say Catholic or Protestant. Let's have a middle way here.

Michael: 33:43

And.

Margie: 33:44

I think that's the history of the Church of England maybe. Yeah, yeah, I don't know where that's looking at you know, I'm sure this is a heretical discussion somewhere.

Michael: 33:54

I'm sure it is.

Margie: 33:56

Somebody's going to say well, this is heretical, but I just, you know, after you spend a lot of time, you don't even have to spend a lot, because I don't spend a lot of time just snippets here and there on social media. I just think, oh, come on people, can't we do a little better than this? And I don't know whether they think that people think that they're talking to a homogeneous group or because nobody's mind has changed on social media, really.Margie: 34:25

Yeah know, I don't I don't know anybody that says this mean change my life even though that's a big thing to say in the culture.Michael: 34:33

This is changing life, you know right seriously.Margie: 34:36

Your dish soap change your life I know we're going to be a telling culture, right?Michael: 34:40

we have opinions and we want to tell others our opinions. And pastors often ask me, or the leaders I coach, like, how do I approach this? And probably the thing I say more than any other is learn to ask good questions, and that's what we, as coaches, learn, right, you learn to ask good questions. So I think all leaders, all pastors, need to learn to become question askers. So if you want a place to start, rather than feel like you have to create your own opinion on everything or study every issue or come across authoritatively on whatever the case would be, learn to ask questions. We have a good example of that in Jesus, right?

Michael: 35:17

Jesus, when asked questions, would often respond with another question, or he was just the master question asker, and yet we don't pay much attention to that. Maybe we all need to get into our Bibles and do a study on the way Jesus asked questions, why he asked them that way and the results that came out as a result. So if we were to start somewhere, I think, to ease polarization, learn to ask good questions that help people sit in the tension and not feel like they have to exert their opinion in a way that edges other people out so that they're only around people that agree with them. That's just not what community is. Right henry now, and used to say that community is the place where the person that you least want to live with always lives. That means there's disagreement, there's tension, it's messy right and, pastors, we need to cultivate that with each other.

Margie: 36:12

Yeah, I know, and in my last church I served in the new, and that was before I was trained as a coach, but I was before. I was a newspaper reporter and some of the marketing and PR work required me to ask questions of people I was interviewing. So I had to ask the right kind of questions to get them talking, to get information, to understand better. So that was part of what I was packaged with already. So they knew that if they came to me with something, I it was going to be a really why do you think that? Tell me more about this or that. I mean, I was always and, and look what I'm doing now and now it is. You know, I coaching is a great outlet for that and it and it's a helpful and useful tool. It's good to be curious about other people and why they think the way they do, because there's usually something that's usually kind of an interesting story besides yes right people are kind of interesting.

Margie: 37:12

Well, I'm going to leave us here and just you know, I think this is the kind of podcast that you just listen to maybe a few times share with a friend, and just kind of listen to maybe a few times share with a friend and just kind of mull over where you think Jesus might fit. And I'm not saying Jesus fits, and everything comes out of my mouth and no way would I say that.

Margie: 37:32

There are some days I tell you, don't even follow me to the grocery store you so you know, I mean take a moment and just kind of chew on the ideas and think about it and see what God says. Thanks so much for this conversation, michael, and I'm sure we'll have you back on again.

Michael: 37:56

You're welcome. Thanks, Margie.

Margie: 38:02

So how do the pieces of your life fit together? Do they fit together well and things are humming along just fine, or are there some pieces that are tight or absent or just not fitting the bill? This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series, where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, which is a form of self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create, and there's a nifty, nifty analogy Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about. So I'd love for you to join me. To do that, to opt in, I'll need you to email me at crabbypastor at gmailcom. That's crabbypastor at gmailcom. So you won't want to miss this. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this. So make a plan to join me in the glass workshop.

Margie: 39:46

Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout? Maybe? I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebryce dot com that's B-R-Y-C-E MargieBryce dot com and it is a burnout questionnaire free for you to download, and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it and that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I ask that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know that's where I was at. So again, go to MargieBryce dot com it's on the homepage of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.

Margie: 41:07

Hey friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook. I make stained glass as part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the show notes. But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders. So I'm here to help. I stepped back from past honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the Crabby Pastor. Thank you.

Both men and women will benefit from this discussion on how women leaders in ministry navigate the unique challenges of self-doubt and cultural barriers. Join us as Margie Bryce and our special guest Janyne McConnaughey uncover the intricacies of imposter syndrome and self-limiting narratives that often plague women in leadership. With a rich background in both supportive and restrictive church environments, Janyne sheds light on the critical need for male leaders to foster inclusive spaces and the invaluable role of self-awareness and self-compassion.

Support the Show.

This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Margie: 0:01

Hey, there it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, where we talk about all things sustainability, whether it's sustainability in ministry, in your personal life and we acknowledge that the church is in a transitional time, so we hit topics there, too that are going to stretch your mind and the way you lead, especially how you lead yourself, so that you don't become the crabby pastor

Margie: 0:32

This\This is Margie Bryce with the Crabby Pastor Podcast. Are you crabby today? I always like to ask people why they're crabby. So not why are you crabby right now? But what are the things that make you crabby? Because life is challenging enough. Hay, who is just amazing to chat with. I love having our conversations because you bring different things to the forefront and help us in our thinking, but we're still talking somewhat about self-care and the stories that we tell ourselves. I think that goes in with, uh, imposter syndrome too, don't you think?

Janyne: 1:24

It does, it does and uh, probably with women or the most, not that men are absent from it, but it's different, it looks different. We're the queens of syndrome.

Margie: 1:40

How is that? You know? Or you know, because I've asked myself questions before what makes me think I can do fill in the blank, especially in terms of ministry. I mean, I know for me, when I just accepted my call, I just, I don't know. I have catholic roots I don't know if you knew that or not about me, but catholic roots, so you know, when god calls, know there's angels in the background going and all that. And so you just, I just plotted along and as I got into the thick of it it was much more challenging to navigate than what I anticipated.

Margie: 2:16

Like I think in our last episode you said something about how light, how we think life is going to be, and it's always this beautiful upward trajectory with flowers and lollipops everywhere, and then we get on it and it's more like a wacky ride on a roller coaster. And for leaders, especially our sense of self-care. And we talked last episode about our ability to think, about our thinking. Why do we think like that? You know, that is a key component of self-awareness and it is a factor that arises when you're talking about things like self-talk and the kind of stories that we tell ourselves about who we are, and our abilities, our giftedness Any of that resonate with you, Janyne.

Janyne: 3:10

Yes, and as you were talking, I was thinking about the fact that my story is kind of unique in as far as a woman leader, in that I began my dad was a pastor in a denomination, a Wesleyan denomination, that ordained women and had women church board members and and, and some of the, some of the women that I was acquainted with growing up were just strong women leaders with growing up were just strong women leaders Just like, yes, take charge and get it done, and compassionate and hardworking, but strong. And after I graduated from college, I took a job in a church that was a self-proclaimed fundamentalist church. Okay, I, I had no idea, I had absolutely no idea that that a world where women's, my very strong leadership skills, would not be appreciated and it didn't really go well, let's just put it that way.

Margie: 4:26

Well, that's probably the nicest thing you had to say about that just didn't go well did not go well and I I was.

Janyne: 4:40

I I was fired two jobs in a row. No, there, there was a job in the middle in a Brethren church. It was lovely, lovely experience and so anyway. So when I talk about the role of women, I almost feel, I feel like I have those two very different viewpoints inside of me, and so it's hard for me to. I deeply sympathize with those who live in church cultures that have very prescribed ways that women can express their leadership, if at all. And then I have this other side of me that was very, very strong and went to a college that was very strong in developing women as leaders. And so I just want to say that before we go into this, because sometimes I say things that seem like I'm saying two different things, but they come out of two different parts of my life Because it depends on what the question is.

Margie: 5:51

That's fine and, as you were talking about that, you know, I've been aware of those situations. I've been in congregations and certainly if you have a Catholic upbringing, the opportunities for women are none. But that's spelled N-U-N. I mean. I guess there's other things. Some churches would allow a lector you know, a female lector, others would not, you know. So that is an environment in which the story has been pre-written for you.

Margie: 6:24

Yes, Right, yes, this is what I'm thinking about as you're talking. I thought, isn't that amazing then to encounter places where the story is not just this is a story that you're writing and don't think even about anything else, even if you're competent and able to live a different story. But we still can, even in those environments that allow for space for a broader story, even in those environments, we can be our own worst enemy as women, be our own worst enemy as women. And I have to say here too, before we go too much further with this, that, guys, if you're listening, this is worthwhile for you to hear and to know and to understand, especially as you are giving space in your life for women leaders and you're inviting them to sit at the table of leadership. It's important to understand this. So but yes, we can undermine ourselves.

Janyne: 7:32

Right, and I appreciate you saying that, because men stay with us. Right, because we what women can offer in a church, and I've learned to navigate how to be a leader in a, in a, in a culture that did not did not allow me to be the leader that I could have been. I learned to navigate that and to make an impact that I could have been. I learned to navigate that and to make an impact and, and I want I want to say that it wasn't like I just went and curled up in a corner. I was definitely a leader there, but I had parameters that I had to live by

.Janyne: 8:16

But but, but no matter what you're, no matter what you believe about the ordination or not ordaining women within a church, then is it about women or is it about women in leadership, right? So I think that they miss so much of what women could bring to the table and the viewpoints that they could bring to the table if they were allowed to sit at the table. And so find a way, in whatever theological, whatever doctrinal, whatever, doesn't matter to me Find a way to listen to women, and staying here with us is one of those ways. Sure, so no pressure.

Margie: 9:08

But pressure, I know. So why do we think that women seem to be better at the negative self-talk? And especially? You know, if you do enough of the negative self-talk over time, you're a writer you're taking all these sentences or paragraphs about your negative self and then you knit it all together and it does become the story that you tell yourself about yourself. And I know, for me I sometimes, when things haven't gone the way I had hoped I can, you know, what do I think I'm doing? And you know what? What kind of story do I want to really live into? I have to stop myself literally and and really say whoa so I'm going to tell a story right here.

Janyne: 10:04

I was having a conversation with my brothers last week and we were talking about we have conversations about growing up and we're like 10 years apart, five years apart, and and I was the youngest and they were the two older boys and and our perspectives of our, our life as children are very there's some things that we, you know, they're very supportive of me, they agree completely, but there's things that they're like wow, we didn't see it that way, Right. And so I think that sometimes when I storytell, then I lose my train of thought.

Margie: 10:41

No, no, you're good. You're right that several people in the same family can encounter the same trauma, but the impact of that trauma can be very different, very very different. So that's fair game.Janyne: 10:58

And when we talk about women? Okay, let's say, you put a woman, a woman and a man in a room and they both make the same mistake. Okay, the man's gonna get a pass on the mistake he just made and the women is unlikely to get a pass on the mistake she just made.Margie: 11:20

Okay, just the way that. Is that always the case?

Janyne: 11:27

Do you think? I think that when it comes to leadership, I'm not talking about morals, I'm not talking about we're talking about just women in leadership roles. Okay, that that it is. It is much easier for for the man to make the mistake, and a lot of times when the woman is makes a mistake, she's seen as well. You really probably shouldn't have been in a leadership role because you're a woman and you're too emotional, you know all of those things right, Whereas a man who say, well, you know what, you were being a strong leader and you made a decision and you went with it.

Janyne: 12:03

And that's more important, right, that it is like. All of the research will show you that how that is viewed by, by, by men and women. Okay, that that it's much harder. And so when you, when you are put in situation after situation after situation like that, then you eventually come to believe that you, you are the problem, and that's where the negative self-talk comes from. And so I mean, I would get, I, I would.J

anyne: 12:37

I was kid that every teacher was they love me, but, oh, my goodness, she's a challenge, okay and so, but I would, I would get in trouble for things that the boys didn't get in trouble for, right, it was just really, it was just different. And so I think that we, when we talk about we talked about in the last part that that, what we have, what happens to us as children and what happens to us, I think that that that it's easier in the, in the process of growing up, to see being a woman as its own form of negativity, as it's, you know, too emotional, to, to, to, to, to you know, yeah, and then if you do step into some roles, you know you're, you're too, too, too.

Janyne: 13:38

Right, and so you're always trying, you're always bucking up against that, and you come to accept that as your own narrative. And and and once again, you know, whenever we talk in generalities, it doesn't apply to everyone. I posted something the other day and three people say well, that wasn't my experience. I'm like oh, you're so blessed.

Margie: 14:03

Yeah, yeah, well, it is, that's wonderful, that's wonderful, yeah, that's true, that's true. But you know, I mean we all, I think write stories about ourselves. It is definitely connected to our past experience that you know things that you have encountered. It all comes to be a part of who you are and you do function out of that. It's a matter, too, then, of learning to discern when you're heading down that merry path that I mean. But we have to be careful, because I came to this conclusion one day is that I can't be that little yapping piece of clay at God saying to God you made me incorrectly. You know I should have been crafted as a guy. You know, I mean, I was made to be female and I have to step into that and live into that. And then you know, because all, even the guys in ministry, everybody, everybody, let me say it this way Everybody has something that they have to push through and persevere through in ministry, all of us have baggage, all of us have something, and it just so happens that that, you know, women have their own category. You know that they have to say I am, I am called by god, and I need to just stand firm in that, and what the rest of all y'all do with. That is your issue. It's done. You know, I don't know. You know, because it's tricky. It's tricky.

Margie: 15:52

I have on my husband's side of the family, the family I married into, there was there's a faction that is wesleyan. They would acknowledge women's gifts and abilities in ministry. And then there was a faction where, no, you are an abomination and you know, what do you think you're doing? So I know I would go hide behind the Wesleyan people at the family reunions because I was basically a wuss, I guess. I just so you know, I mean. But then you have to say to yourself look, I'm somebody who was called by God.

Margie: 16:35

Now the story for me does get better. I mean, this is it was kind of sad because it has to do with funerals, but my father-in-law and then his older brother passed within six weeks of each other. And when my father-in-law and then his older brother passed within six weeks of each other, and when my father-in-law passed, I was asked to participate in the funeral and I thought, okay, you know, because, all right, I'm going to be up front, I'm going to be doing that, and I did. And it must have been acceptable, because six weeks later I was asked to participate in my uncle's funeral, who was basically not having that and not down with women doing that. Fortunately, I had served in a parachurch ministry and was known in my community and connected with that, and the pastor at his church was not down with women doing that.

Margie: 17:30

He was gracious to me when I came in the door and I just said I'm going to go just sit up on the front row. You let me know when you want me to come up. And they wanted me to read some scripture and solicit for people to share. You know that was my role. And I said now I'll do that. And he said no, no, no, you're going to process in with us. And the casket, he said. And then you're sitting on the platform, you know. And I just said oh, all righty.

Margie: 17:59

So all of this happens, I'm sitting on the platform, I'm going to get up and read scripture in this church, and it was it stated in the, in the little handout for everyone, that I was Reverend Dr Margie Bryce, which I thought, oh my gosh, look at this. And I got up front and I'll never forget, just standing there for just a moment and looking out over all of these people and I thought, truly, god, you can place my little feet anywhere you so choose, can't you? And I kind of chuckled to myself in the irony of the moment that was there. It was really really kind of interesting. So that's a story. My spiritual director when I shared it with her, you know I thought she was going to come out of her chair when I shared it and she said you know, that is an important God thing to remember and reflect on. Especially now is where I'm going to shift back to, especially as you seek to tell your stories to yourself.

Janyne: 19:09

Right, well, okay, so let me give my version of that, okay, Okay, because I'm listening to you and I'm like, oh my gosh, yes, and and the. The story I'm going to tell is very different. It shows how our path with God is such an individual thing. So I had taught at Bible colleges for 33 years when I ended out going and beginning therapy and healing and I resigned from my position as part of that and I said I told my therapist my life is over. You know my career, you know I I'd worked, I'd worked to achieve a high level of professionalism. I it's over and that's a story to tell yourself right yeah.

Janyne: 20:01

It's over, you know, and she said. She said, janine, I know you can't see your future right now, but but it's out there and I'll hold it for you until you get there, Okay.Margie: 20:14

Oh, that was such a sweet thing to say, isn't that amazing?

Janyne: 20:18

And she is out here with me tracking what I'm doing and we laugh about that a lot. Remember when you sat there and you said, okay, so there I am with my story and believing that my life is over. And then five years, five years past that point, I have. I've been teaching in the, a master's program for neuroscience and trauma. I've done I don't know how many podcasts and speaking. It's like up in the 70s probably. That I've done. I've been president.

Janyne: 20:54

I just finished my fifth year as a board member for the Attachment and Trauma Network and I thought when I went outside of the church that I would never be accepted because of my background in the Bible college professor. You know, bible college professor goes out into the world and you know how is that going to work. And so when I, two years ago, I was president of the board and I got up to greet everyone as president of the board and I looked out over the conference, we were in person and I looked out at all the people and I had that moment that you had standing there where I said, I said God is not limited by my narrative about myself, because the same thing that those doors will all be closed to me because of my you know Bible college professor background at a small college right and and God is not limited by the narratives that we tell ourselves is exact.

Margie: 22:07

It kind of gives me chills to hear our two stories and have that moment right, I know I know and and those are the those are the moments that we need to sew into ourselves, even if you're allergic to needle and thread, like I am. But we need to throw those into ourselves and really reflect on those. I remember early on in my Christian walk-on I had some amazing discipleship, a gal that just walked with me and she would all the time talk about I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me, and that it is God that gives us our gifts and abilities to use and to move forward in that. But then there are the days that we allow our you know, our past to just kind of come bubbling up and and overtake the moment. And we need to just get better at recognizing that and recognizing our thinking about that and then not wanting to weave that into our story all the time.

Margie: 23:21

But you know, poor me is a good one, that one you know I feel like the victim. A lot you know about this or that and I just I go, oh, that's, that's really not who I want to be. And the same thing with being just at times feeling like I'm this tragic little figure and there's a weird little narrative, and then saying that's not who I want to be and I don't think God made me to be that exactly so learning to shift and and be aware that that that we're doing harm to ourselves right

Janyne: 23:59

Well, you know, I just want to say this is really kind of an interesting I'm going to be really vulnerable right here.

Janyne: 24:04

Okay, because, because this wasn't what we were originally going to talk and we kind of went off and did the second part, and I'm sitting here going, oh my gosh, this was for me, okay.

Janyne: 24:16

And so so I'm sitting here and I'm realizing, because because I I had to step back this year, I had to, I had to set down everything in order to heal and just whole other layers of trauma that that I was not even aware of in some cases and was not aware of the impact on me

.Janyne: 24:39

And so so I, I I've set down so many things and, like I said in the first, that this is the first podcast back after taking this long hiatus, and I and I realizing that I I'm, because of age and because of the long-term impact of trauma, in some ways I am limited going forward in what I can do, but but that does not affect what God has planned for me now that I've worked through all that healing, right. So I've kind of gone back. I realized, as I was telling my own narrative, I went, oh my gosh, I mean, you're sitting on that couch again, thinking it's over right, and I'm just going to sit on my back porch and not that I'm not happy there. I love my chickens and they make me laugh and I just sit and watch and the birds come and I just I absolutely love my life here where I am, but it doesn't mean that that the next part of my life isn't less important than the part that I just completed.

Janyne: 25:45

They're they're going to look very different from each other, but they're just as important and more focused on my writing than what the last five years, even though I published four books how can I say I wasn't focused on my writing? It's just different, in a different way. And so I do think that those narratives that get embedded in us and I wonder if, when I moved, after I had lived somewhere for 10 years as a little girl and suddenly was uprooted, all of my support systems, all of my friends, all of everything my church, my community, everything I lost and then I just got deposited somewhere else If that narrative didn't begin there, then my life is over. When changes happen, my life is over, yeah.

Janyne: 26:35

Right. Then I'm just like, oh my gosh, that's what I'm doing again. That narrative is so deep within me that I don't see it as a pivot, I see it as an end, and that's what. That's what narratives do to us is they get stuck because of what has happened to us as as children or as adults, and then and then we get stuck in that same narrative again of believing that it's over, or we can't do that or that, not possible. And so thank you, thank you for continuing, now that I've had, I've had my own little therapy set.

Margie: 27:14

I know having epiphanies on the on the crabby pastor podcast by golly, that's pretty funny, it is, it is. So, yeah, I don't know. Now I'm sitting here wondering if I shouldn't rename the podcast, because what was I thinking? What kind of story is this Crabby bastard? I don't know. Well, I want to thank you so much for being on here again and for sharing, and our hope is that, at the end of the day, that you're going to be really looking at the story that you're telling yourself about yourself and asking yourself what story is God writing? And am I trying to swipe the pencil all the time? What kind of story are you? And if you're not sure about what story God is writing, I guess I'm going to push a little further and say are you at peace with letting God hold the blueprint as you walk with God through this era?

Janyne: 28:19

Yeah, because it's going to be so much better than you expected. Hard times, difficult times, absolutely, but it'll take you to a place you never expected to be. And I want to say this is really funny but what I talked about about metacognition in the first yeah, you just wanted to say that again. I wanted to say metacognition again. I love that word. Okay, just what I just did set demonstrated what I tried to explain in the first one. That was being being curious, thinking about what I was thinking, and, and because of that, then I will not fall into that self-talk narrative again. So they both fit together, yeah.

Margie: 29:05

And this is totally unscripted besides. So, although I have a feeling that God had a hand for sure, what do you think? I don't know. Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast again, and I love having you here.

Janyne: 29:23

It's always a fun conversation. Yes, I love this. Thank you, thank you.

Margie: 29:31

So how do the pieces of your life fit together? Do they fit together well and things are humming along just fine, or are there some pieces that are tight or absent or just not fitting the bill. Absent or just not fitting the bill? This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series, where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, which is a form of self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create. And there's a nifty, nifty analogy Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about. So I'd love for you to join me. To do that, to opt in, I'll need you to email me at crabbypastor at gmailcom. That's crabbypastor at gmailcom. So you won't want to miss this dot com. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this. So, so make a plan to join me in the glass workshop.

Margie: 30:58

Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest, is burnout Maybe. I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebricecom that's B-R-Y-C-E MargieBricecom, and it is a burnout questionnaire free for you to download, and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it, and that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I asked that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebricecom it's on the homepage of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.

Margie: 32:36

Hey friends, the Krabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook I make stained glass as part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast, and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the show notes. But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help.

Margie: 33:47

I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the Crabby Pastor. Thank you.

This was such a fun conversation with renowned trauma expert Janyne McConnaughey... who joins us in this episode to learn more about how internal dialogue matters... a lot!  Janyne shares invaluable insights from her professional work and personal healing journey, emphasizing the power of positive self-talk and the concept of metacognition—thinking about our thinking. This episode is designed to inspire better self-care and mindfulness in perceiving and speaking to ourselves, providing practical strategies to foster a more supportive internal narrative.

Support the Show.

This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Margie: 0:01

Hey, there it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, where we talk about all things sustainability, whether it's sustainability in ministry, in your personal life and we acknowledge that the church is in a transitional time, so we hit topics there too that are going to stretch your mind and the way you lead, especially how you lead yourself, so that you don't become the crabby pastor. Hey, there it is Margie Bryce with the Crabby Pastor podcast, and we talk about all things self-care here, in an effort to be good stewards with the body that God has given to us so that we may serve God's purposes wholeheartedly and be able to present to God our best. Just food and exercise, because you can scroll through all the podcasts and just see how often I talk about food and exercise, even though I I attempt to work on that area of my life, always, always. But I see self care in a bigger, as a bigger picture.

Margie: 1:19

And I am here today or Janine is here with us today, I guess is a better way to say that and we're going to talk about the way we talk to ourselves, or self-talk. I know I can be very guilty of that and at times I've realized that I've done it, and then I think that it's no big deal and I move on to something else. It's not a big deal at all and and I'm coming to a deeper understanding that does make a difference. It absolutely does make a difference. So I'm here with Janine McConaughey who has done a lot of trauma related stuff. That's a theological word, Janine, just so you know stuff. They taught me that in seminary.

Janyne: 2:12

It's the one thing I retain, no hopefully I retain they taught me in academics.

Margie: 2:18

I know. So, janine, introduce us again. I know you've been on the podcast before, but go ahead and introduce yourself and feel free to share with us the most recent things you're working on.

Janyne: 2:31

So, first of all, thank you for having me again. When the note came through, I was like, oh, I love conversations with Marty, so I'm happy to be here today and I really have taken a couple months to do some further healing and kind of step back from a lot of things, and this is actually my first podcast back into the game, and so we'll see how this goes today. But my latest endeavor is that I have a sub stack that I'm doing and it's a mixture of the work I do with survivors, the work I do with religious trauma, the work I do with trauma-based spiritual a and just the writing that I do. I wrote a book, hotel Candelabra and it's just a kind of an allegory, and so sometimes it's just my writing. So, anyway, so I am basically getting back into the game right now, but my sub stack is my favorite thing that I'm doing. As far as my work right now.

Margie: 3:46

Yes, I just read your, your entry. I think it was today. It was really it's interesting stuff because it just again with the stuff. I apologize, but it was just really interesting reading and it really kind of makes you think. And that that to me, even when I was in ministry, when somebody said to me, wow, pastor, you really made me think. I felt like I'd hit a home run. That was it for me. I'm not sure what that says about me, but I'm sure something. But anyway, I feel like that's a good thing because there needs to be more thinking. Today the thinking department sometimes seems to be underused in some cases.

Janyne: 4:31

That's interesting because my students you know, I taught at the college level for 33 years and my students would walk out of class and say your classes make my brain hurt. I go oh good, good, good, that means that you're thinking my brain hurt. I go oh good, good, good, that means that you're thinking. And so I generally take a different perspective than is expected and so, yeah. So, thank you for reading and, yeah, today's was interesting, so it's a whole. We're doing a whole. My husband and I together are doing a series on we Do Therapy and when two trauma kids married each other and all the lessons that we've learned. We celebrated our 45th anniversary last week and so, yeah, so that's one of the threads that will pick up again in September.

Margie: 5:21

Well, we want to talk about why self-talk is so important. You want to start us off and I'm sure we'll get rolling.

Janyne: 5:35

That question is so big.

Margie: 5:37

I know, I know. Did you ever know? I used to be a newspaper reporter.

Janyne: 5:44

Oh no, I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah, that's how I can ask respectable questions.

Janyne: 5:51

Well, it's a respectable question. So why is self-talk so important? And I think that everything that we do is affected by what we believe about ourselves. That we do is affected by what we believe about ourselves. And, of course, in my work that I do with trauma. You know, a traumatic event can happen, but trauma is actually the impact of what happens to us as a result of that traumatic event and our ability to find support and process it and get it out of our body and all those kinds of things. So when we talk about self-talk, then we are going to be limited in everything we do by what we believe about ourselves. And self-talk is basically what we believe about ourselves coming out as something verbal in our head and I thought about, I wanted, I wanted, I thought about metacognition. Okay, this is the educator I'm going to show up with cognition.

Janyne: 6:53

Okay, I love that word. I may say it again a couple times. Anyway, what it is is thinking about your thinking. So, it's your own thoughts and your own cognitive processes and and, and that is what you're supposed to do, and and so self-talk is a form of that. It's a form of thinking about your thinking. But if it's, if it's negative about yourself, then then you're not really reflecting on it.

Margie: 7:26

So let me just see if I'm getting this, making sure that I'm understanding. So if I say boy, I really stink at that, okay. And then you say to yourself wow, why did I say that about myself? That's thinking about your thinking. Yes, some people don't make it that far, though to the why am I saying that about myself?Janyne: 7:53

Right.

Janyne: 7:55

And so metacognition allows you to think about what you just said, because we always I don't know that there's a human being alive that, like you're in the middle of some

.Janyne: 8:08

I started going to the senior center and doing yoga, you know, and if there's any place that negative self-talk is going to show up for me, it's in yoga, because I haven't gone for a while and I'm like, why can't I do this? Right? So, by the way, really really healthy for me, it's the best self-care that I that I can possibly physically do, and so, but but then I need to stop and think well, why do I feel that way about myself? I said because I'm so concerned about what other people are thinking and I look around the room and everybody else is just focused on doing the, the pose, right, they're not looking at me, they can't, they can't look at me and do what they're doing, right. And so it takes that extra step, that metacognition, to realize why I'm saying those things about myself during yoga, right, and you're right, if you don't go there, then you, just you begin to believe what you said and you begin to be more and more negative about yourself and then you, it inhibits what you're able to do, and especially if we're talking about ministry, if you're constantly telling yourself you're terrible at it, then you're going to be terrible at it.

Margie: 9:19

Right. Isn't that funny? I mean because would we think it's egotistical to say I am an amazing pastor? Nobody is better than me. I mean, now we're wandering into egotistical a bit but I think it does impact your performance. I know for me, when I first got up to preach, I would just about break out in hives, my neck would get all red and whatever. And the more I did it and the more I stepped into it, I started doing better. But at one point what I said to myself is put your head up, your shoulders back and step into that thing that God has called you to do. I started saying that to myself as I walked up to the podium, up to the microphone and and then, um, it made a difference.

Janyne: 10:20

Yes, yes, because if you're sitting there waiting your turn and you're thinking, oh, am I going to say something stupid when I get up there, Inevitably you will say something stupid when you get up there.

Margie: 10:33

Well, that's not a comfort, is it? That's nothing.

Janyne: 10:39

I mean, you just are like no, you have to stop yourself to go. Why do I think that? I think that because of and you can go back and you usually your subconscious will take you to the exact incident that you just died with shame because of it, and you get stuck there and think it's going to happen again and again. But yeah, and sometimes I mean and then like what, what is your definition of doing something stupid, what every other human does? You know that you mess up your words or you say stuff right, like why did I in that podcast, why did I keep saying stuff?

Margie: 11:16

oh, thanks, now I'll be thinking about that.

Janyne: 11:20

There is no, you were already thinking about it.

Margie: 11:24

No, I was done. Thinking about it Really though, you know, feeling like you're a failure and saying that to yourself, feeling like you are worthless or I'm a bad pastor. I mean, I've said that in jest. I'm not serving actively in ministry right now, but when I did, at certain points I'd say man, I'm a bad pastor. You know, like they send you to the bad pastor the sin bin, like in hockey, or something Time out for you, but it does change your moment in a really interesting way, Do you think?

Janyne: 12:07

I think so, and when we say I am a human being who's doing the very best job that I can at being a pastor right now, and I'm not perfect, and it is okay not to be perfect, then it allows you the space to be a human being. I think that sometimes we just beat ourselves up for being human, right and not perfect, and not perfect and no one is and no one really expects anyone else to be either. I mean, if we're really honest, we rather like it when other people are human, because then we feel less pressure on ourselves to meet some standard that can never be met, to meet some standard that can never be met, and so, but I think, I think that it does, it does affect us, it affected when you would walk up having those thoughts in your head as, instead of thinking, you know what I know, I know what's important to say today and and I may not say it perfectly, but that's okay, because I don't have to be perfect and it's okay.Margie: 13:29

Yeah, yeah. And then tying that back into our identity in Christ and what we are called to do and to be about, and stepping in. I mean I think I'm pretty sure, I'm pretty sure that God knows we're not perfect.

Janyne: 13:47

What do?

Margie: 13:47

you think, but at the same time, at the same time, the stuff there I am again the stuff we say to ourselves about ourselves are things that typically we would not say to other people

.Janyne: 14:05

Oh, we wouldn't, we would never, we would not say those things to other people. I mean your best friend, even, right, you know, we mean, and I'm I'm looking across the way my best friend lives One of my best friends lives right next door to me, you know and so I'm looking across the way my best friend lives One of my best friends lives right next door to me, you know and so I'm looking over at it, into their yard, and I'm like I would stop her, right, if she was saying that. I would say wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What are we? What are we saying? What are we saying here? And because it just hinders, it hinders relationships, it hinders everything. And but the thing is, is that you, you can't stop yourself

.Janyne: 14:46

I think that's an important point to make. Is that, is that we're huge? That's another part of being human. Is that, when something, when we do something, immediately shame starts to attack us and say well, you did that. There's just something horribly wrong with you and there's something you know you're never going to mount, you're going to, you're worthless, you're never going to. You know you're always going to make these mistakes, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know. And then shame sets in and the thing to do is to be like oh, I recognize you. Shame, I recognize you. I see you trying to take control of my life and make me believe things about myself that is not true, and then you can step back from it and say, no, what I believe about myself is again I'm an imperfect human who's doing the very best job that I can, especially in ministry. And I think you have to say that a lot, because you're never, you're never going to get it exactly right.

Margie: 15:50

And sometimes the sheep will tell you. Right right, the sheep bite sometimes right.

Janyne: 15:58

Like as an author, I get so little pushback. I mean, I've just been so blessed by that, I have amazing supporters and people who follow along with my writing and things. But but I I have to know that I won't always get it right. And somebody will ask me a question and sometimes it creates and I'm like, oh wow, I wonder why I said that in there and I realized that there's something that I need to go process and think about more, and then I'll usually come back and write something about that. Right, so it's actually actually it's a learning experience. If we can be curious about why we're saying the negative things toward ourself that we do the negative things toward ourself that we do, then we can be curious about where did that begin? Where did that particular feeling about myself begin? And it's curiosity that turns it into a learning experience instead of a negative experience.

Margie: 17:00

Well, that's pretty powerful stuff If you can stop yourself and do thinking about your thinking thing and then if you start to see a pattern of this, I think I'm starting to be on the lookout for it. You know saying, oh, I'm useless or what do I think, why do I think I'm great I guess imposter syndrome fits in here somehow as well If you get to the place where you just are questioning the legitimacy of your call, of your ability to serve. I think one of the podcasts that I get a lot of hits on is one called Am I Enough? That one seems to be pretty popular. That seems to be a question that you know, and no, none of us are enough for this task, and that's why we have to be relying on god, god's power, in our heart and in our lives and as we serve.

Janyne: 18:08

But for some reason that still doesn't turn off the ticket, you know I think that I don't push back a little right there, because I think that when God creates us, we are enough right. God doesn't create us and say, oh, I'm creating you is not enough, you're probably not You're not enough you never were, you never will be right. So I think, on one hand, I know that because we are human.

Janyne: 18:39

On one hand, I know that, because we are human, that we do need to depend on God walking with us and giving us wisdom and helping us to do the right thing, but that needs to be separated over here from who we were created to be, which I believe that you know and you can push back to me too. But I believe that we are created with the gifts and the talents and everything that we need to walk in partnership with God and do the important work that God is calling us to do. And so and I think that I think that that has been really important to me, especially because I spent so long not doing what God gifted me to do, so I did not publish my first book until I was 65. Even though, even though, in when I was working on my doctorate, they said you're, you're the best natural writer in the cohort. You, even though, when I did, I mean, self-studies at colleges are like, not interesting writing Right. And and they, they said the self-study team said this is the most enjoyable self-study we've ever read.

Janyne: 20:03

Then I I mean, and this was just repeated to me over and over again, and yet I didn't get it, because, because I didn't believe I could really be an author and it took me months of therapy and my therapist trying to get me to understand that, yes, this is your gift. So where did that begin? Right, because I was born with that ability. Yes, I honed it. Yes, I, you know, worked on it. Yes, I spent my whole life writing for other projects, etc. But I was born to be a writer and and I had everything I needed to do that.Margie: 20:46

But I didn't believe in myself and uh yeah yeah, oh there, and there was negative self-talk in that. You know, what do I think I'm doing? Why do I think I can do that? Or?

Janyne: 21:00

right clear. Up until the time I won two awards on Tarama and the Fuse, I was still doing that negative. Well, you know, people are buying it. Yeah, maybe I say some important things. And so the two awards that the book won. This is really funny. The two awards are very different from each other. One of them is is just, is more of a pure, pure writer, and the other one is how the book is constructed and how and so it. It really is the publisher side of it, and so you know, I mean I, I have to put the content in there. The publisher has to work with the content. But it's more of a combination. But by the time I'd won two awards, I was like, okay, I give up. God, yes, you created an author.

Margie: 21:43

All right, I'm good Then you were able to give that kind of self-talk to yourself. Right, I am a fill in the blanket, I know. Recently I went to some coaching development work out at a university, work out at a university and it was amazing stuff in that we were learning to identify when people say I am fill in the blank about themselves, and then as coaches that that is an important thing to listen for and then to follow up on or really say more about that or why, why do you say that about yourself? All of those kinds of things. So that's kind of not a point of Genesis, but it was a really re-emphasis of that self-talk piece

.Janyne: 22:38

Well, okay, so let's talk about a lot of the messages that we give out, give get in the church. You know the idea which, theologically, I completely agree with, disagree with. Disagree with that. We're worthless that we are. You know the whole exegesis of being wicked. I mean that you need to go do a whole study on that one and so forth.

Janyne: 23:06

But there's a there's a prevailing in some theological camps. There's a prevailing feeling that you are and I and I it. So part of that is theological. So I did my dissertation on the view of the child from innocence to non-innocence and I studied all of the theological trains that you know, all the way from back from Plato, aristotle, through all the major theologians, through all the denominations, and what their view of the child was, and it ranged from innocent to born sinful, completely sinful and wicked, and you can trace those all the way down and how the teaching methodologies and things are chosen as a result of that.

Janyne: 23:51

So I think we have to understand that theologically, you have to really dissect how that is affecting you and how that is playing into what you say about yourself, like the fear of pride, right, like that came up actually a little bit earlier and I was going to say something. You know not to be prideful. Well, there's a difference between owning what you're good at and being prideful about what you're good at. Okay, so if I'm prideful about being an author, then I'm. I'm going to go say you know, I'm a better author than anyone else.

Janyne: 24:30

I'm going to, you know, I'm going to say things like that If I just own being an author, I'm saying I was born to be an author. I'm, I'm gifted as a writer and I can just own that. And that isn't pride, that's just that's owning what I, the gift that I was given. Yeah, that's different self-talk there and that is.Margie: 24:52

That is definitely different self-talk, and I think scripture says we should not have a view that is too high of ourselves, but we also should not have a view that is too high of ourselves, but we also should not have a view that is too low. That is the Margie Gregg probably poor rendition of what Paul says not to think too highly or too lowly, but and that's true, you know, not thinking too lowly either ties in with what we're talking about in terms of how we speak to ourselves. I don't know, maybe we should go, look in the mirror and have to really face yourself when you're saying some of these things. I don't know if that would make it better, worse or make you think about what you're thinking about and saying about to yourself a little more.

Janyne: 25:41

It's interesting because I'm speaking at a conference this Saturday, one of the small church conferences, and I did a and anyone listening to this podcast. If you want a copy of this, I'll just email me and I'll give it to you. But I took the piece out of Trauma in the Pews, which is a trauma, informed spiritual practice and I talk about. I talk about self affirmation. So one of the things that I say is to walk up and stand in front of the mirror and say things to yourself in the mirror and that is the absolutely like positive statements to yourself in the mirror is one of the most difficult things. That for someone with a low image of themselves, for them to do and and it's and and that you're right.

Janyne: 26:32

The balance is not to be looking in the mirror and going you are just the best. Yeah, I know it's totally different thing, but just to look in the mirror and say you know, I am loved by God, I was created with gifts and talents for me to serve and make this world a better place, and I can work on those. And let me tell you when I say that I'm an author and that I'm a gifted author, I know I can give you the list of 10 things that I cannot do, that I can't do well, right. And the things that my editors catch me on every single time, right. So it's not that I'm a perfect author. I need editors and Grammarly. You know, nothing goes out without going through Grammarly, and so so there's just this balance that we have to find that right there in the sweet spot in the middle, wherever we accept both the things that were, that were created and gifted in, the things that well yeah, oh yeah, I'm gonna do that in everything.Janyne: 27:43

Oh my gosh, I did it again. And so um and I just, but I'm to the point where I just laugh at it, like how many times will it take before? And I do get better, you know, but if I start beating myself up about it, it doesn't do any good yeah, no, it doesn't.

Margie: 27:59

It doesn't, it is. It is strangely like you're being prophetic about yourself when you live in that negative space. And it says things in scripture like as a person thinks. So they are Right, I mean.Janyne: 28:20

I actually looked that up. You said that because right before I was sitting here and I'm like, oh, I'm going actually looked that up. That is so interesting. You said that because right before I was sitting here and I'm like, oh, I'm gonna look that up.

Janyne: 28:27

And what's so interesting about that is that that verse is about who we show to others and who we actually are like. Like, if you look at the whole context around that it's it's about someone who invites you to their party and then they say all sorts of good things about someone who invites you to their party and then they say all sorts of good things about you, but they're in their heart they're thinking something totally different, and that you should be cautious about just accepting all the nice things that they say, because they may not. So I have never, ever looked at the entire context around that verse and and so what I realized is that that we ourselves need to be. The flip side of that is that we need to be honest about who we are, and being honest doesn't, for some reason we think, being honest about ourselves mean we have to be negative about ourselves.

Margie: 29:21

Yeah, that sounds right. Yeah, if I'm honest with myself, I'm going to say this, this and this, and how I missed the mark, whatever it is. You know you do do that kind of thing. But I love that when scripture bears out our psychology. But think about this, everybody that pushes back on psychology and I got called on it once for I preached a sermon and it was using a sermon form that I had actually been taught at NTS by Dr Dan Boone you give the sociology of a situation and you give the psychology of a situation.Margie: 30:05

Then you bring in the theology. It's kind of an well, since when is why we do the things we do? Somehow out of God's purview or or out of theological discussion? And then you run into verses like, as a person thinks, so they are, you know, and even how the context works and everything. And I love it when the scripture uh, not validates psychology, but it certainly shows that God's aware of what we do, things we do and how we work. I mean, if God is the author and constructor of us, I think that that's probably something that's important

.Janyne: 31:07

You know, over the past couple couple years, polyvagal theory has become more prominent what is that?Margie: 31:17

just going for the biggest word used on the podcast I have done.

Janyne: 31:22

I have done metacognition and polyvagal theory. All right, okay, I can't can.

Margie: 31:29

See, there's my negative self-talk. I can't keep up

.Janyne: 31:34

And so that's kind of what I do is I go and I study all this and then I kind of distill it so I can distill polyvacal. And actually I have another freebie that I gave away at a conference, if anyone's interested in that one too. I did it during the pandemic about just breathe and okay. So when you, when you are having a really stressful day, and all of a sudden you sigh Like I'm the best sire in the whole world and and what I came to realize is that we have a nerve, that it's a multi, it's called the wandering nerve and it runs all throughout our body. It connects our brain to every part of our body and it has two parts. I'm really simplifying, like all my friends, like you made that a little too simple, janine, okay so. So it has two different parts and and you stay in balance by those parts either slowing down, being at rest all of that is controlled by this nerve in your body. So what I began to understand is that that kind of breath is how you, how your body, is trying to bring that nerve back into balance. Okay, so you, just you think about it and after you sigh really big like that, then you're kind of you feel like you can keep moving and do whatever.

Janyne: 33:01

I had a place where I where I would walk through the building and I actually have one of my sub stacks just on this, which does a much better job than I'm doing right now but when I would get ready to walk into the admin offices, I would sigh by the secretary there every time, and one day she stopped me. She said do you know, you sigh every time you walk by me and I'm like, oh my gosh, I don't know why I do that, but now I do Because I was trying to calm my nervous system. It's the autonomic nervous system. That is just how God created us. That is how God created us, and we have so many ways that we can. And actually the project I'm working on, which is Trauma and the Puce 2.0, is talking about how we can use the pause and how we can understand how our bodies work so that we calm ourselves instead of going into the negativity. And so, anyway, I don't know how I got on that, but well, you just wanted to say polyvagal, what?

Janyne: 34:15

polyvagal, what polyvagal theory? I know. So the. So the man, the researcher who introduced this to the world, um, I got to introduce him to a seminar one day, on the line and and before we were in the green room together and we talked about grandchildren and you know, and I was just like, and I was just like you know everything that I want to learn about this and it, you know, and I was just like, I was just like you know everything that I want to learn about this and it's so deep that I, you know, I can't. But then he was just a human being and he calmed me, right, just his very presence. And I mean I was supposed to be the person that was introducing him and he was calming me because I was in the room with him.

Janyne: 34:49

And I just think, I think about how our lack of understanding about our bodies and the ways that our body reacts to the world around us reacts to whether we feel safe emotionally or physically. Children in the classroom who do not feel safe cannot learn. We cannot interact well with other people unless we are able to help our body feel safe, and so the internal self-talk that we're talking about is many times a result of that, of our bodies being out of whack and not being able to find the pause and to calm ourselves, and so, and we can't live. I posted. I posted on Facebook, I don't know if you saw it. I posted this is how we want life to be, and there's this straight road that's just going straight off into the distance and it's just flat and smooth, right, and this is how life really is, and it was a roller coaster and I think, when you are under stress, when you neglect to slow down, to slow down, I think that is when my brain seems to fire a lot more negativity.

Janyne: 36:23

Yes, I don't know.

Margie: 36:23

And that's because you feel unsafe in your own body as soon as you emotionally or physically or in the situation you go toward the, the negative which is kind of built into us as a protective measure, and and um, when a lion might eat us and we feel right, right that, like I don't feel safe right here because there's lions around and there's and and um, the same reactions occur in our body even though we don't have lions roaming across our neighborhoods right now I mean, I'm thinking about pastors and I was contemplating this and how I'm going to roll this out, but allowing pastors to have conversation about leading people in this election cycle, you know, and Because a lot of people don't feel safe, you don't feel safe.

Margie: 37:17

Regardless, I'm not going to wax and wane political here at all, but I'm saying people are hearing this and that and this and that, and sometimes you don't know what to think and then you just don't feel safe. And then, as a leader in a faith community, how do you address that and how do you lead in the midst of that? And I'd like to be able to have conversation with ministry leaders about that, because it's very easy to go negative, especially when there's a lot of negative around.

Janyne: 37:52

Right, right, and, and I you know, so some days I'll be on Facebook. I do, I do research on Facebook. I'm just always watching seeing how people are reacting to those kinds of things, Cause that helps me as a writer. But anyway, sometimes somebody will post a meme and somebody else will post a meme, and I'm like like, wait a minute, they are on completely polar opposite sides of this whole thing we're dealing with, but they just posted the same thing to prove their point right

.Janyne: 38:20

The point actually is is that neither one of them feel safe, and and all of the all of the fear-mongering is making it worse, whether it's about this side or about this side. It is disrupting their ability to stay calm in their own bodies, and and then they go to the negative, and then they and and so, but it is. It's all about feeling safe in our own body, but if we respond to everything with negative self-talk, then we don't feel safe in our own head because we're being so, I mean okay, that's a really scary thought feeling safe in your own head, or then you don't feel safe at all Right, like you're having a really, really bad day and you just need somebody to just be like wow, that that's tough, that is a really tough day and the only person around is yourself and you're going why are you, why can't you right you?

Janyne: 39:23

so you're, you're the person you need you, you, you are the one you need in that moment.

Margie: 39:31

And negative self-talk does does not causes you to be unsafe with yourself and that's a, that's a, an equally big deal and and um, I think I will save that for our next conversation. But the story you tell yourself about yourself, right, is an extension of what we're talking about, because you can have the facts in front of you, you know, and facts are things that you see, things that you hear, but then we always take what we hear and what we see and we make a narrative about it and whether that is something that you are talking about, something separate from yourself, but it also bears truth in what you're, the story you're telling yourself about yourself. I bet there's a fancy big word for that too, that I don't know.

Janyne: 40:37

All right, I will. I will try. I don't always come up with them. I use them when I come up with them, but if somebody asks me what the word is, I'm done.

Janyne: 40:44

I have no idea, okay. So one thing, one thing that I want to say about that, because what you just said is so important, like the story we tell about ourselves. And where did that story begin? Okay, the story we tell about ourselves is buried inside of the of whatever happened to us as children, and of course, I talk about trauma, I talk about sexual abuse, I talk about all these things. You do not have to have that kind of story to be affected by something that happened to you as a child. And so I I posted, I posted a sub stack last Saturday about moving, and the research says that if you move between the ages of 10 and 15, if you moved then you have a I'm going to probably get the number right but like 41% greater chance of being depressed as an adult.

Janyne: 41:41

And if you move twice or more during that period, you have a 68% chance that greater chance that you will be suffer with depression as an adult. So what happens to you and for the most part we just take for granted yeah, we moved, you know, several times. You know it was hard, I had to go to a new school, you know, but we downplay that and don't realize that those things affected what we came to believe about ourselves. So sometimes, sometimes, when I say something negative, I can actually hear the person saying it. Okay, whether I can, whether it was a teacher, whether it was my mother, whether it was a sibling, whether sometimes I can actually know whose voice that is being said in. And so so those things are, and that's where you have to be curious once again

.Janyne: 42:38

You know what, what causes you to to be anxious in situations, to feel clumsy, to feel all of those things. And for me, it's generally how many times I started a new school? Every year, from fifth grade to 10th grade. So for five solid years I went to a new school every single year, and my anxiety of going into new situations is just off the charts sometimes. And my survival skills that I use to walk into the room, own the room and step into it and find my place there is also a phenomenal thing. But before I'm able to do that, I die of anxiety. And so these things are and I'm like why? You know you're going to do a good job once you get in there. Why do you have to be so negative about yourself? Oh, because of what happened to me all those years.

Margie: 43:40

Right, and sometimes just acknowledging that yes Moment is is enough to diffuse it

Janyne: 43:50

Right, I mean I just stop and I give my younger self a hug and say you know what I got this one? I'm not 10 years old anymore, going to a brand new school in a new state. No, I'm not. I know how to do this, I can go in and I can do this, and so yeah, instead of being upset with that younger part of me that gets all anxious, they just need a hug, because that was hard, it was so hard, and so yeah, just to have compassion. So there's another word the self-compassion.

Margie: 44:27

The self-compassion is a big deal. This is a big deal because you are nicer to other people frequently than you are to yourself. Yes, you are.

Janyne: 44:41

We are.

Margie: 44:41

We all are. Yes, we are. And with that I'm going to wrap this episode up, this episode up, and I'm going to kind of give a little bit of a teaser here for what we're going to talk about next, because we are talking about stories we tell ourselves. But then I'd like to continue our conversation, janine, with women and the stories we tell ourselves, especially in the religious environment.

Janyne: 45:14

Yes, important topic, absolutely, thank you.

Margie: 45:23

So how do the pieces of your life fit together? Do they fit together well and things are humming along just fine, or are there some pieces that are tight or absent or just not fitting the bill? This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series, where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, which is a form of self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create, and there's a nifty, nifty analogy Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about. So I'd love for you to join me. To do that, to opt in, I'll need you to email me at crabbypastor at gmailcom. That's crabbypastor at gmailcom. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this. So make a plan to join me in the glass workshop. Make a plan to join me in the glass workshop.

Margie: 46:57

Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout Maybe. I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebricecom that's b-r-y-c-e. Margiebricecom and it is a burnout questionnaire free for you to download and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it and that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I ask that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebricecom it's on the home page of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.

Margie: 48:29

Hey friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook. I make stained glass as part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast, and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the in the show notes. But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self care for ministry leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help.

Margie: 49:39

I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know so that you don't become the Crabby Pastor.

Can holy friendships be the key to preventing burnout in ministry? Join us on the Crabby Pastor podcast as Margie Bryce hosts Michaele LaVigne to explore how deep spiritual connections can sustain and enrich pastoral life. Currently, Michaele contributes to the Spiritual Formation Initiative at Nazarene Theological Seminary, focusing on spiritual direction and coaching. She will be hosting a webinar on August 29 on how to start a holy friendship group (see link below).

Support the Show.

This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

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Margie: 0:01

Hey, there, it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, where we talk about all things sustainability, whether it's sustainability in ministry, in your personal life and we acknowledge that the church is in a transitional time, so we hit topics there too that are going to stretch your mind and the way you lead, especially how you lead yourself, so that you don't become the crabby pastor.Margie: 0:37

This is Margie Bryce, host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, where we talk about all things self-care, so that ministry leaders can fulfill the things that God has asked them to do and offer God our best in the process. So I talk about all kinds of topics, and today we're going to talk about friendship and holy friendship in particular. I have Mikae Levine with me here and she has managed to participate in and help others to create these kinds of relationships, because we ought not to walk through life and through ministry alone and become lone rangers that will indeed, in time, wear on us and really deplete us. If we and we pray for community. I believe that's replicated in the Father, son and Holy Spirit for us, so there is a very holy purpose and design for us for that end. So Michaele and I are going to chat, but I'd like you to introduce yourself to us, please.Michaele: 1:50

Sure, sure. Thanks so much, Margie, for having me. So I am a mom of two. I have a 10-year-old and an 8-year-old. I've been married to my husband almost 19 years. Currently we live in South Bend, indiana, but my ministry journey has started in central Ohio. Got to be in at the ground level of a new start church there in a lower income neighborhood. That was a great place of growth and challenge for me. Yeah, just yeah. Well, that's a whole other story. We could talk about all the fruitfulness of that season. I was there while I was in seminary at Ashland Theological Seminary in Ohio.Michaele: 2:38

Then my husband and I spent a year of volunteer missionary service in Southern Africa, a little nation known as Swaziland, now called Eswatini. Then from there we were invited. I was invited to join the staff of Bethany First Church of the Nazarene out in Oklahoma, and that came through the time that we were in Africa. We partnered a lot with that congregation. So I served there for five years, was the pastor of discipleship and then, from Bethany First Church, with a colleague from Bethany First Church, launched a new community in Oklahoma City, like the urban core Oklahoma City, and that became Eighth Street Church of the Nazarene, and it was that you know that place.Michaele: 3:29

That really allowed me space to put some imaginings into practice, as you can do when you're starting from scratch.Michaele: 3:39

And so I was able to live into more of the spiritual formation realm of discipleship and wrote weekly practices for our congregation, really was able to lean into and offer a lot of the gifts of contemplative spirituality and Christian practice, and that also began some of my journey to what I do now, which is mostly spiritual direction. So I've been operating, serving as a certified spiritual director the last three years, which also coincided with our family move to South Bend for my husband's work, and I don't pastor a church in the same way that I had, you know, for those um for my previous life, um, but I do lead a house church gathering on Sundays and then the majority of my work throughout the week in ministry is spiritual direction, seeing folks individually, most of whom are pastors, um, but then also leading some workshops, retreats, um and conference kinds of offerings along the lines of, you know, contemplative prayer and spiritual practice and holy friendship, which is what we're talking about Sure and I forgot that we shared the Ashland thing.Margie: 5:03

Ah, yes, I was out there for my doctoral work and I love Ashland, love that place dearly. So you also have a role at Nazarene Theological, is that correct?Michaele: 5:14

Yes, yes, so just recently we launched what we're calling the Spiritual Formation Initiative through Nazarene Theological Seminary and I am directing that along with Dr Doug Hardy and Dave Sharps who's overseeing Praxis. So it's really kind of an extension of what has been happening within the classroom already for a long time the investment in individual spiritual formation of the pastor. But now we're working to extend that beyond the classroom and into pastors' lives and their congregations. So one of the things that we're doing is connecting a network of other spiritual directors to provide resourcing and care for our pastors and then create opportunities for congregations also to receive the gifts and lean into that deeper kind of listening and discernment that can be offered through those more slow and formative ways of being together.Margie: 6:28

Yeah, that slow down thing. You have to work at that.Margie: 6:34

As iconic as that sounds. You absolutely. I've learned that fairly recently and I've also had a spiritual director. I still have a spiritual director and then last, my last pastoral charge, I had a coach at the same time. So that was, you know, very different. Um, but I know, even for me as a coach, I'm pretty. I'm going to ask at some point when it's appropriate, where's god, god in this, what do you think, and those kinds of spiritual direction things. So I see the great value in doing that and I have to be really honest, some of my connectivity with coaching and spiritual direction is as wonderful and valuable as they certainly are.Margie: 7:23

And I still think that today not just in the past, but some of that initially for me was because I had trouble connecting with other ministry leaders to sit down. We would talk about this when I was out at NTS, we had to write a rule of life and all that, and we talked about having others on the journey, but I found that I had trouble connecting with other people. I mean, we would talk about it. We would say I know I really need to do this, I know it's really valuable and so I would take some initiative and try to do okay date, time and place you know and try to nail it. And once it moved to that place, people lost interest and I was very confused by that and so I thought I got to do something, especially when I went back out to Ashland. And again, this is some of the process that's involved we're writing our personal vision statement and again it comes up about don't be doing this journey alone, and I attempted again.Michaele: 8:32

And.Margie: 8:33

I just I don't know if I get a failure grade for this or what, but I do know and we'll leave this kind of information in the show notes about upcoming workshops where you're going to help us with that. So talk to me some about your journey with Holy Friendships, how that evolved.Michaele: 8:55

Yeah, I think what you say is so true, Margie, because we I think for a while anyway, at least within this current and maybe one generation of education prior to us we know that we need to do things together, but it's the how that we struggle with. There seems to be a real disconnect with how do we actually do this together? Right, and I do think that it makes a lot of sense. Reaching out to a spiritual director and or a coach is is one really important way, right, and and that that matters deeply. I don't think that they are mutually exclusive, though. I think we need both. We need the one voice that is speaking as a spiritual director that says you know, I'm going to listen deeply with you for how the Holy Spirit is working and all of our conversational emphasis is focused on you. It's not, you know, reciprocal in that moment.Michaele: 10:07

But then we also need those spaces that are mutually reciprocal, that we can be together and say we together are going to listen to one another and also listen to the Holy Spirit with each other and give guidance as the Spirit directs us. That is not an easy thing to accomplish because most of our ways of being together and our ways of speaking with one another are quite different than that. I felt like you, I felt a need for this for a very long time before I actually was introduced to anything that felt like it was meeting that need. And I will tell you that it came through Renovare. Okay, I'm familiar with that organization.Michaele: 11:05

I attended a workshop day not long after moving to Oklahoma city. There was a um, a retreat workshop in Tulsa hosted by Renovare and was really just kind of a one day, um, deep dive into um, into all things, spiritual formation, and okay, how do we getting to that? How question like, how do we actually engage? And their, their push was you know, if this feels like something that you are being drawn into, it's not a singular, it's not an individual enterprise. So find one or two other people use this workbook. They really recommend it as a starting place of a thing called the spiritual formation primer and go through and just practice. And it really was outlining like the broad, the multiple streams of Christian spirituality and tradition through Christian history and saying the necessity of each of those, and then also gave practices to you know, grow into those different streams and, you know, said this isn't something for you to do alone, it's something for you to do with a group of people in prayerful conversation with one another.Michaele: 12:31

Well, I had just moved to Oklahoma city, bethany area, and was a young member of a staff and just felt like I was at a loss as to who I could be in these kinds of conversations with. It did not feel like I had the longevity in that place or the sense of safety as a staff person among a very large congregation to just find lay people, find lay people. And there weren't there were very few other women on staff at that point in time that I felt like we would have that kind of connection and so I just sat on it for several months and every time that thought would come up I would just kind of get disgruntled and be like, wow it's so unfair, that I can't do anything about this, you know.Michaele: 13:26

And then one day I remember so clearly, you know those moments where you know that God is breaking through. It's not an audible voice, but it's so clear and I was grumbling again and just felt that nudge of like this is something that you need to do, and in exasperation I was just like I can't do anything about it. You know, I don't have people, and so clearly I sense the spirit say, well, when are you going to ask me? Are you going to ask me if I have any ideas about who you should? Oh, yeah, I know.Margie: 14:05

And then you, in those moments you kind of feel like this is sort of Christianity 101.Michaele: 14:09

Right, oh, asking God for guidance about what God's asking you to do. What a novel idea.Michaele: 14:15

No, no, that's so funny when those moments happen funny when those moments happen and lo and behold I mean it was. It was so vivid Like I. I paused and I said well, okay, god, I'll humor you. You know, sure, tell me who you think would make a good you know, holy friendship partners with me, or whatever. And I mean those two names flew at me so fast and they had never appeared on my radar before. But as soon as they, you know, as soon as I wrote them down in my journal, I was like huh, that actually might work.Michaele: 14:54

There are two ladies who were, you know, in their own process of determining a call, but were currently lay ministers in the church, working their way through local and district license kind of questions. And one was teaching a Sunday school class and two, you know, different age ranges. But I thought, huh, okay. So I reached out to one and then the other and told them what I was thinking and that I had asked the other person and of course, I mean the Holy Spirit just orchestrated it so perfectly. Each of them said I have been longing for something like this and they knew each other which I didn't know, and they knew each other which I didn't know, and they didn't know each other well, but they had had a connection, you know, like a decade prior, and it was really good and they had very fond memories of one another. And so we just was like okay. So we started working through this.Michaele: 15:57

I think it's like a nine or 10 week process or session we didn't meet weekly, I don't think and so we did that spiritual formation primer through Renovare, and at the end of those weeks, well, I should say it's kind of like it's teaching, like you read through kind of curriculum together and then you have discussion and then you pick a practice that you want to try between that time and the next time that you meet, and the next time that you meet you talk about what that practice was like.Michaele: 16:33

You know, what did we learn, what did you experience, whatever and so we did that for I don't know eight to 10 weeks, and then at the end of it, it gives you like a kind of a way to review how. What was this process like? Do we want to keep meeting? Is there anyone that we want to add? And we decided to keep meeting and we didn't use the exact form the whole time. That kind of gave us structure, but we did try to have some kind of structure to keep us on track so that it wasn't just a free for all of conversation. You know we would give an update about.Michaele: 17:11

here's what I sense God doing. Here's how you can, we can, pray for one another. And then here's something that I want to practice or work on between the time that we meet next and then we would.Margie: 17:22

So would that be a spiritual practice that they work on?Michaele: 17:25

Yes, or would it?Michaele: 17:26

be, yes, usually yeah. So the way that book works is that it gives you, like the I think it's six or eight streams. It calls it of Christian tradition and practice, calls it of Christian tradition and practice and it outlines like the here's, you know, within the evangelical tradition, within the holiness tradition, within the social justice tradition, within the contemplative and incarnational tradition. So it gives you all of these like ways to practice in that area, and so every time we met we would choose one of those practices. So some would feel like a very classic, you know spiritual discipline, like memorizing scripture, or you know a very specific way of praying. Others were like, you know, write an encouraging note to your politician, or, you know, send a letter to someone in prison from the social justice tradition, or you know just, it was a. It was a broad variety, shaped the way that I led my congregation in spiritual formation and then shaped a lot of the practices that I wrote for our congregation. That ended up becoming the book Living the Way of Jesus. But that's a whole other.Margie: 18:50

Right, right, that's all. So let me ask and I will put the link to Renovare because I've been to one of their workshops day long and they are amazing for sure, because I've been to one of their their workshops day long and they are amazing for sure. And but what I would like to ask now is how do you pattern your current?Michaele: 19:14

process of holy friendships, yeah, so. So the process that I described just, you know that started with the Renovare. That began in about 2011, I think, and we met pretty faithfully up until 2015 or so, and then there were quite a few changes and we added someone to that group and then someone moved out of the country and so, you know, it just was a little bit in flux and so we stopped meeting regularly about, um, maybe it was 2016 that that happened.Michaele: 19:53

Anyway there were several years where I wasn't meeting regularly with any kind of um group. And then during COVID, when everybody was just in the height COVID and you know the in the wake of George Floyd's murder and Black Lives Matter movement, and just so much upheaval and distress, exhaustion and isolation, it just felt like I needed something. But I looked around and noticed that the majority of people that I, you know, I have a broad network, as you do, you know, being a pastor, you have a broad network of other pastors. And I was like man, we pastors are some of the most isolated and exhausted among the bunch. This is not a good place to be.Michaele: 20:48

And so, again, I really sensed this, I really sensed this drawing into this way of of relationship again. And so again I prayed and asked okay, who, who are the women pastors that I can? You know that that really are my peers that we can engage with together? And this time it was quite different. We already knew, you know, everything was virtual, so I wasn't limited to geography, and I knew of a handful of women that I had engaged with online or had seen speaking, or, you know, we're in where we're in some level of communication already and just kind of admiring one another. We're encouraging one another from afar, right. And so I reached out to, I think, six and just kind of said, hey, I have this idea, what do you think? And four jumped on it and said yes, please, this is really.Margie: 21:52

How many did you ask? Just for those of us that are sitting back?Michaele: 21:55

going. Yeah, no, I think I asked five or six, and four students, yeah, okay, I think. So Maybe I'll have to go back, but anyway, it wasn't like I didn't cast a wide net. I really just, you know, and I even thought, if everybody says yes, we might be too large of a group, you know, but these are the people that came to mind, so I'll follow up. So we met as a group of five for a while, for two years, and then now we are a group of four.Michaele: 22:32

One of those women made some transitions and is no longer meeting with us, doing some other things, doing some other things, and that group did not start with the same level of structure that my previous group did. I think everybody at that point was nobody knew each other well. Some of us had known each other in previous ways, but nobody knew each other well and we were living in four different States, and so we decided that we just really wanted to get to know each other and pray together and create a place of safety and honesty for one another. Now this is a group of really mature and I I mean I think some of the I mean I'm biased, because now they are like my soul sisters you know, but some of the best of the best Right.Michaele: 23:35

And so you know, we have folks in that group who have studied spiritual formation and direction for a long time, and I think everyone but me now has a doctorate in some level of, you know, spirituality or formation. So we weren't coming into this newbies, but we also were not again. We were like people who know what you need to do, but you just don't know how to do it, and so we gave each other the space to practice and we just like, tried stuff. So at this point, we've now been together four years, I think. Yeah, wow, almost four years, because I think we started meeting the end of summer 2020 or beginning of fall, and we've seen each other through family deaths and work transitions and illnesses, just big moves. I mean, it's just been, you know, all the stuff of life.Michaele: 24:43

So at this point, we need far less structure to really talk about deep the things of how goes it with your soul you know, but we needed some guide rails at the beginning to say, like, how do we structure this sacred time together different than any other time that we meet? So now we're in a rhythm where we take turns, one person leads each time, so it doesn't fall to one person every time and that person just leads off with you know some kind of small shared practice or devotional, you know something that we've read in our own devotional readings and give some like questions for thought, and then we go around and share along with like hey, what, how is you know this situation that we've been praying for and how is your spouse handling? You know the current whatever, and and then we, we pray together. We also have a very active WhatsApp thread so that in between times that we meet, where we're sharing life and talking and and keeping the conversation going that way, yeah, so you meet how often?Michaele: 26:02

Again? Well, in the summer it's quite all over the place. We try to meet once a month in the summer, and then in the office, and then in the rest of the time it's every other week. Okay, all right.Margie: 26:16

So I think I'm guessing it's purely a guess that what you're doing now is what has influenced your upcoming workshop on this, absolutely yeah.Michaele: 26:29

Yeah. So the Holy Friendship webinar or workshop, whatever is offered through the Wine Coop Center for Women in Leadership at Nazarene Theological Seminary, we hope and we are planning to broaden that and invite some male colleagues and so that we can also offer this as a non-gender specific offering. But right now we have specifically designed this webinar and the accompanying resource for women clergy. Again, it's because that's who we are particular to, the there's something particular to the challenges of women in ministry that this seems like absolutely essential. So that's where we started. We also, you know, recognize there's all kinds of. We seen the need for this and we long for people to participate, but we can't keep adding individuals to our group. That's just not how you do it.Margie: 27:50

What's the, what's the you'd want? Maybe what four?Michaele: 27:54

five. Yeah, I would say probably we operated with five. That's the largest group that I've been a part of. We operated with five. That's the largest group that I've been a part of and I think that's probably max, mostly because maybe if you're in person it's a little bit different. But organizing time schedules gets challenging and then also keeping your meeting time to where everybody has equal opportunity to share that that's really really important and the more people you add, the harder it is to actually do that.Margie: 28:37

So you're looking at maybe, how long does an average or typical.Michaele: 28:41

We try to meet an hour. Sometimes, you know, if we're like, hey, we haven't met in a while and we really need a longer session, then we'll, all you know, plan for an hour and a half or something. We've also now met twice in person for like a kind of retreat all together and we've done that like, I think, two days each time and that's been really, really good.Margie: 29:07

Nice, nice. Well, you had an era where you practice the Renovare process and then you had a time in between where you didn't have anything, and then move to a time where now you you do again have this. Can you describe for us, then, what you felt during that era where you had nothing?Michaele: 29:34

I would say, while I didn't have anything that was holy friendship, I had other things. Anything that was holy friendship, I had other things. Um, that was the. Those intervening years were the height of, um, my toddler, mommy phase and church planting days oh, that's busy. It was very busy. My husband was working on his PhD. It was very busy.Michaele: 30:03

But in that busyness there was a different kind of holy friendship that emerged from our church planting pastor team degree, you know, but a lot of shared life, shared prayer, shared visioning, so that I did not feel like I was going it alone.Michaele: 30:31

But it just took on a different shape during that season and that's also the season that I started regular spiritual direction direction.Michaele: 30:38

So I think that you know again, it's not the same thing, but a lot of what I it felt like.Michaele: 30:54

There were things that I, for as much as I trusted and loved you know, my initial holy friendship group there were some things that I I needed to be challenged in and process through. That needed to happen at the non-mutual level. Right, it needed to be me and the spiritual director really wrestling some things out, or really me and the and the Holy spirit, you know, and wrestling is probably not the right word, because the spirit engages us so gently and invitationally, um, but that seems like an invitation to go into a deeper place. That prepared me for what was next. So it wasn't like I had nothing, um, but it was just a very different and I think, I think that's an important, that's an important thing for us to name and give permission for the need for different seasons and the way that, you know, our relationships and our practices can ebb and flow based on the particularities of any given season, and that spirit is maybe more okay with that than we are.Margie: 32:12

Sure, If you had to name, then what? Why we need this what would you say?Michaele: 32:24

Why we need? Why we need?Margie: 32:27

each other, why we need the holy friendship yeah.Michaele: 32:36

Gosh, there's so many things that we need. There's so many things that we need. I think it is really difficult as pastors to find spaces where it's safe to be known.Margie: 32:56

Yeah, I can say it this way we need a safe place where we can be honest. Yes, exactly.Michaele: 33:06

And I would say that at the beginning of our holy friendship, this kind of second edition that I'm a part of now, I don't know that you can't just manufacture that safety in an instant right. It takes a level of trust that grows over time. But over time, you know, I know that to those women I am not Pastor Michaele LaVigne, church Planter Michaele LaVigne, spiritual Director Michaele LaVigne, conference Speaker Michaele LaVinge, conference speaker Michaele LaVigne or author Michaele LaVigne. I'm not. I don't have to put on a show, even on the days where I have nothing good to show up with, you know. And and then there's also the times that there have been for each of us.Michaele: 34:20

There's been seasons where something so hard is happening that it's hard to even say it out loud, let alone voice it to another person. And yet the incredible gift of walking with people who the hardest stuff out loud, the bad news, the thing that feels like the impossible situation. They don't rush to fix it, they don't judge you, they just sit with you where you're at and commit to praying, and pray with wisdom, I mean, it's just and then speak the truth that you forget sometimes. Right Like this is not what, what you are feeling and thinking and all of the shame that you're piling on yourself right now. That is not of God we have. We have to have people that say that to us For sure, for sure, for sure.Michaele: 36:06

In a post-gendered or misogynistic society where, like you know, we're past all of that, right, and the reality is, and there are times when we need, as women, to say to one another you know, you're coming up against the principality and powers of sexism, right, like you know, that's what this is, yeah. And then it's like, oh gosh, you're right. Okay, now we can name it, now we can put that out there and say, all right, then that changes how I handle things or how we're going to pray about this, and then giving wise and bold counsel to one another, because being a woman in that place of leadership is so challenging, because you don't want to play the gender card right all the time.Margie: 37:01

Right, you don't, but you don't want to play the gender card right All the time. Right, you don't, but you don't want to always hesitate to kind of go in that direction. But I just had a conversation yesterday with somebody where I said not only am I female, and if I complain to God, I'm like this little yapping piece of clay saying you know, you're male, which then I'm telling God you made a mistake which I can't do theologically or anything. You know, maybe it's just it I said, and then I'm short. So this is kind of you know, and you have to figure out how to still function according to what God is asking you to do, regardless.Margie: 37:48

And that's why I'm thinking of the picture of Moses and his father-in-law, jethro, coming and holding arms up, and you need people to come around you and you need to be that. You need to hold somebody else's arm up as well. It's a real mutual kind of gift, really. It is.Michaele: 38:04

I also think of the story of Elizabeth and Mary, you know, and I think this is such a beautiful example of holy friendship where, quite literally, one is giving witness to what God is growing inside of the other. Oh, I like that picture, oh yeah, and saying you're not crazy, I see it too, and you are deeply blessed in in this and that mutual rejoicing, solidarity in the hardship of people not understanding and thinking that you're crazy. And you know, being marginalized and and knowing that there's a hard, your favor in God's eyes also brings a harder road ahead. But, but you are not. But, but there's another person who knows what it's like, and I think that is what we so desperately need and what I've been so deeply fortunate to receive.Margie: 39:17

Well, thank you for painting this beautiful picture for us and for sure I will be adding your workshop link. I'll get that from you and I'll put that in with the show notes and I'll push it out to the places that I can push and hopefully we will have more people to step in to this and get to experience even a taste of what you have presented to us today would be amazing, yeah.Michaele: 39:57

Well, I'm glad. Yeah, well I'm glad. I'll let you know too, because I think that the how is even more it's not more important session preview or a kind of a getting started sort of thing, similar to what I received in the Renovare stuff. But this is particular to women clergy groups and gives us a chance to set the tone for a different way of being together and in conversation. So that will come. As you know, people who sign up for the webinar will receive that automatically with the cost of the webinar.Margie: 40:56

Right Great, and the cost of the webinar is Right Great, and the cost of the webinar is yeah, you were going to ask me that.Michaele: 41:02

I'm pretty sure it's $30.Margie: 41:04

Okay, that's a deal. Yeah, you can say $30-ish. Yes, if it hasn't been nailed because we, you know record these way in advance and you know stuff. But yeah, so it is. Let's is, let's say, affordable. Yeah, we're trying to make it so, yes, okay well, thank you so much for being on the crabby pastor podcast. I appreciate this so much, but here's a question that I frequently not always, because I don't know. It falls out of my head sometimes to even ask. But, um, is there anything about life and ministry that makes you crabby?Michaele: 41:48

Yeah, yes.Margie: 41:52

Would you have any particular item that you would care to share?Michaele: 41:56

Oh, mercy. Well, I would say I mostly get crabby these days in trying to organize my schedule. Oh, okay, it's the tedium of administrative stuff, not having another brain to help keep me straight. Um, and I recently found where I had made a scheduling error and double booked myself. And um can't be at a conference and a retreat at the same time, and so that makes me crabby.Margie: 42:37

Oh well, thank you so much for playing that game and and sharing that with us, because we all get crabby?Margie: 42:46

I always ask this because at a conference, um, a gentleman came up to my table and said, because it had a crab on it, and said you know that stuff? And he said I'm never crabby, I don't know. Like, I don't know what you're talking about. I'm never crabby, I don't know, like, I don't know what you're talking about, I'm never crabby. He didn't say I don't know what you're talking about, but he just said I'm not crabby. And I said well, why don't you go find your spouse and bring her here? And he never came back. Oh, surprise, but that's funny. You know, when you're not serving in a pastoral capacity, I feel like I'm a little more emboldened to push at times. So, anyway, um, that truth that we need to hear, I guess. Well, thank you so much for um being on the podcast and and, uh, blessings on your continued ministry in this new venture and in all the ventures that you have going right now. Thank you, thank you so much Blessings on you.Margie: 43:51

So how do the pieces of your life fit together? Do they fit together well and things are humming along just fine, or are there some pieces that are tight or absent or just not fitting the bill? This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series, where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, which is a form of self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create, and there's a nifty, nifty analogy Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about. So I'd love for you to join me to do that. To opt in, I'll need you to email me at crabbypastor at gmailcom. That's crabbypastor at gmailcom. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this. So make a plan to join me in the glass workshop.Margie: 45:18

Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout Maybe. I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebricecom. That's B-R-Y-C-E. Margiebicecom, that's b-r-y-c-e. Margiebricecom, and it is a burnout questionnaire, free for you to download, and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. And there are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it and that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I asked that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know, that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebricecom. It's on the home page of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.Margie: 46:56

Hey friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook. I make stained glass, that's part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the in the show notes. But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help.Margie: 48:07

I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the Crabby Pastor.