[00:00:00] Mark: That was one like, funny thing about, I mean, maybe not funny, but interesting thing about Covid and everyone having masks. Like you could conceal your emotions [00:00:10] and expressions a lot better. Yes. In person. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's true. Sometimes the eyes betray it.
[00:00:17] Kalen: Yeah.
[00:00:17] Kalen: Sometimes I, man it's been so [00:00:20] long, but I remember that I would like, um, like I would try like when you would, 'cause I normally like smile at people in public, like [00:00:30] relatively frequently. And, uh, and so like, but then. You'd have to like really try to smile with your eyes and you'd be like, [00:00:40] you know, because yeah, it's like, it's just a lot more subtle,
[00:00:44] Mark: you know?
[00:00:45] Mark: I think I noticed after that, actually I started over smiling [00:00:50] with my eyes, even without a mask, and I've tried to like, Correct my smile, like where before I was like, like, like too big. And now I'm like, [00:01:00] like, I'm like, okay, just, just chill out, you know? Just smile with your mouth, you know? No crow's feet, all that stuff.
[00:01:08] Kalen: That's hilarious. Crow's [00:01:10] feet is such a stupid word because it sounds so gross, but it's just like, you know, it's just natural. It's like, you know, it's just the [00:01:20] evidence of a life well lived. Like, can we come up with a better word for the evidence of a life well lived than crow's feet? Like, [00:01:30] what the fuck?
[00:01:31] Kalen: It always makes me feel like I have a fucking crow, like scratching my face off or something like that.
[00:01:38] Mark: Right. Something more [00:01:40] positive. You know, it's like, uh, the, the rings of a, a tree, you know,
[00:01:46] Kalen: you Exactly. The rings of a tree is a [00:01:50] great example. Everybody loves the rings of a tree. Yeah. Imagine if work on, if you call them.
[00:01:57] Kalen: Yeah, let's work on that man. [00:02:00] I mean, you rebranded the Shopify Collective pretty well. Drop, drop shipping, reimagined re that could be a damn Apple commercial right there, dude. [00:02:10] But the funny thing is that you were saying it in the context of like, it really is not that big of a deal. Yeah. I think you edit
[00:02:19] Mark: it [00:02:20] well to make it like positive.
[00:02:24] Kalen: It is what I do. Um, but yeah. That's funny. And then I saw [00:02:30] your, I just saw your LinkedIn post about, um, how you moderating. Do you agree that Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you agree that Shopify is [00:02:40] encroaching onto da da and I was getting ready to write a reply. I was like, I was like, here we go. I'm gonna let him know how I feel about this.[00:02:50]
[00:02:50] Kalen: And then I was like, ah, that's too much to say, uh,
[00:02:53] Mark: save it for the podcast, man. Let me know how you really feel about that. Okay.
[00:02:57] Kalen: Okay. Actually, that's a good idea [00:03:00] because, um, because, uh, it's, it's a lot of times it's a lot easier for me to just spit it out verbally, but I mean, and we, we sort of already talked about this, but like, [00:03:10] platforms always, uh, cannibalize their ecosystem.
[00:03:13] Kalen: I mean mm-hmm. That's the nature of the beast. So, um, I think you were saying that there's [00:03:20] already third party solutions to this, so like why should they touch it? Yeah. But and I, and I'm sort of newer to the ecosystem, [00:03:30] so like I can imagine if you had been in it for a while and you had seen Fun fact, Carl was the very first partnership call that I did [00:03:40] at Mesa.
[00:03:41] Kalen: Oh, wow. And I actually noticed that the guy, the marketing guy there went to my school, which is, I don't, I can't think of the last person I've seen [00:03:50] went to my college. I can't think of the last person I've seen in, in, in e-commerce that went to my school. Mm-hmm. Um, so anyways, we had a cool call. He was real friendly.
[00:03:57] Kalen: I had no idea what I was talking about on that [00:04:00] very first call. But anyways. Like, you probably have seen a lot of these solutions have used them and have been like, okay, you know, they work. But from my perspective, there's [00:04:10] something that does feel very like core to the platform to allow this store to sell this store's stuff.[00:04:20]
[00:04:20] Kalen: Mm-hmm. It, it just sort of actually feels very right to me as a, as a native functionality. Yeah. And that's without really [00:04:30] knowing that much about how well the other things work and things like that. Um, but there's something that feels very, like, elegant to me about, you know, the core of [00:04:40] the platform is are the stores.
[00:04:42] Kalen: And if you're just letting one store sell another store's stuff seems kind of smooth. I think it,
[00:04:49] Mark: it's [00:04:50] almost getting closer to the marketplace concept, which the shop app actually is basically a marketplace now. Mm-hmm. So, May, maybe that's their [00:05:00] goal of just kind of uniting merchants more. Mm-hmm. And, you know, um, I know that they've also acquired apps in the past and like [00:05:10] the, the, the Marketplace Connect app that they.
[00:05:14] Mark: Half now, it's actually mm-hmm. An app that was already in the app store and I guess they bought it and mm-hmm. Have [00:05:20] rebranded it as a Shopify thing. Mm-hmm. So maybe the, the better question is like, why did they decide to build their own versus acquiring? And [00:05:30] my, my theory is that like Carro has been around for a while and they've taken on VC funding and, um, maybe they were like, too expensive and they were like, well, we [00:05:40] can just write our own, like, for way cheaper, you know, and instead of paying a hundred million dollars or something for, you know, these vc, VC backed company, [00:05:50]
[00:05:50] Kalen: um, right.
[00:05:51] Kalen: Like I could imagine, like, I think they put 25 mil into Triple Whale. Mm-hmm. I could imagine they would've been down to drop a cool 25. [00:06:00] On, on this. And then, yeah, maybe you're right. Maybe. Maybe they came back and said, Hey, how about a hundred? And said, Hey, how about, and then they said, Hey, [00:06:10] how about Toby knocks this out in a weekend?
[00:06:13] Mark: Yeah. How about a billion?
[00:06:19] Mark: I have no [00:06:20] inside information on that conversation, but I am sure that's what happened.[00:06:30]
[00:06:30] Mark: Nice. Nice, nice, nice. I mean, but I guess it, it, you touch on like a third option and it's kind of timely. Is [00:06:40] Klaviyo or Klaviyo? I don't, I can never remember which one, like announced their IPOing and Shopify did invest like, I think a hundred million dollars in Klaviyo [00:06:50] a while ago. Um, and there's another public company, I think Global E that they invested a couple maybe, uh, 50 [00:07:00] million ish, I don't know.
[00:07:01] Mark: Um, So it's interesting that there's kind of like three options for Shopify with their ecosystem. They can, they can, uh, invest, they can [00:07:10] acquire or they can replace and cannibalize. And I'm sure that they have to go through kind of a, a business assessment of, of [00:07:20] each option. And maybe with the, the, the drop shipping, it was like, okay, it's pretty, pretty easy to replace this.
[00:07:29] Mark: And they wanted [00:07:30] to, instead of, you know, having to pay tens of millions of dollars to acquire something existing. Yeah. That, that may have happened. We were looking at the screen. [00:07:40] Oh, clay Klaviyo.
[00:07:41] Kalen: Claudio. Yeah. I want to figure out how to, how to pronounce it. How do you pronounce Klaviyo? Uh, I always say Klaviyo, but, uh, I do too.[00:07:50]
[00:07:50] Kalen: That's, that's not an indication that it's, that it's right or anything like that. I'm using an incognito browser this time around. Just be on [00:08:00] the same side. Not that I, not that I have anything to hide in my browser history. Okay. Yeah. I have nothing to hide. I will share my [00:08:10] full browser history with the entire world.
[00:08:13] Kalen: Export that at, at some point in the future. Um, I'm sure we all will at some point in the [00:08:20] future, but, um, it doesn't look like there's any good answers to this. But, sorry, I kind of missed what you were saying 'cause I was pulling this browser up. You're saying with, [00:08:30] with Kla Kla, dammit, with Klaviyo going public, you were saying something about,
[00:08:38] Mark: well, it's just another [00:08:40] option when Shopify is interested in getting into something, you know, instead of acquiring it or like we're trying to replace it, they can invest in it like they did with Klaviyo and [00:08:50] mm-hmm.
[00:08:50] Mark: They've done a couple more of those investments, um, I think Gotcha. Globally, right. Globally kind of powers their like international stuff. [00:09:00] Even like their Shopify markets pro, it's kind of globally in the background.
[00:09:06] Kalen: Mm. Okay. Okay. Interesting. This [00:09:10] sounds sort of almost slightly familiar. No, no, not familiar.
[00:09:15] Kalen: The one that I hear about all the time is Open Border sounds what it's called. Mm-hmm. [00:09:20] Open Border. Yeah. What's the spiel? What's the difference between these two? Um, one of them has a good [00:09:30] logo. Yeah. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.
[00:09:35] Mark: I don't, I don't know that. I guess we'll figure, we'll figure it out.
[00:09:38] Mark: I just know, I know. [00:09:40] Globally, and then Shopify Markets Pro is basically powered by globally, so that's, that's an interesting way that they like didn't cannibalize. [00:09:50] Their, their market. Uh, they partnered with an existing, you know, solution. Oh,
[00:09:56] Kalen: gotcha. Okay. I mean, they white labeled it. That's really [00:10:00] interesting.
[00:10:00] Kalen: Yeah. That's super interesting. Well, not even a white label is one of those words that you throw around, but then I guess since they're [00:10:10] mentioning it, it's not technically a white
[00:10:14] Mark: label, but Right. Maybe, but like, maybe because of the Drake stuff, they were like, we [00:10:20] really, we really gotta support these, these Canadians, you know?
[00:10:25] Kalen: Wait, wait, wait, wait. Is globally Canadian?
[00:10:28] Mark: Oh, I don't know. No, [00:10:30] I'm saying that that's why they created collective.
[00:10:34] Kalen: Gotcha. Wait, I don't get the connections. I don't get the connections to [00:10:40] be that.
[00:10:41] Mark: All right. Like Harley loves. Ca Canada, right? Yeah. No, no, no. Yeah, yeah. Right. Drake is Canadian. He's [00:10:50] probably the most famous artist.
[00:10:51] Mark: Yes, yes. Theoretically, maybe Drake's Management came to Shopify and was like, Hey, we want to do this Drake related thing. What solution [00:11:00] do you have? And they were like, oh, this is so cool. We don't want to like white label someone else's product. Like, and then they created a team to just [00:11:10] build this cross selling, drop shipping product for Drake.
[00:11:14] Mark: And then they're like, we should, should didn't market to everyone else too.
[00:11:18] Kalen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That, [00:11:20] that, that's entirely possible because like, think about what you would, what lengths you would go to for, and I'm not personally a gigantic Drake fan, but I get it. [00:11:30] Like I totally get that. He's absolutely massive.
[00:11:35] Kalen: Plus he is Canadian, plus he's, you know, his thing's gonna be in Shopify. So, I [00:11:40] mean, I could imagine Harley being like, listen guys. We're dedicating a hundred percent of our dev cycles to Drake for the next 24 months. [00:11:50] Give him whatever, give him whatever he wants. And then Toby chimes in and he is like, um, we have a couple other things to work on.[00:12:00]
[00:12:00] Kalen: And Harley's like, shut out. No, just kidding. Just kidding. Just kidding. I bet Toby calls the shots. Who do you think calls the shots? Because Toby's [00:12:10] the c I never like Toby's the c e o. So he probably is ultimately in charge of most things.
[00:12:18] Mark: Yeah, I think he's, he [00:12:20] calls the shots. I think he still has like, control of the company from a, a public shares, um, perspective.
[00:12:28] Mark: Mm-hmm. I think there's some weird [00:12:30] thing similar to Facebook where Mark Zuckerberg has complete control over. Facebook or, or meta even though. Mm-hmm. They don't own 50% of the company, [00:12:40] I think. Mm-hmm. There's some sort of thing set up like that. Um, so he's still the dog. Gotcha. And I think Harley probably like, just takes a lot of like the [00:12:50] mundane.
[00:12:50] Mark: President stuff off of his plate and mm-hmm. Obviously, Harley's a little more like energetic and out there, you know, to Toby's more like a [00:13:00] C T O, but he's obviously the founder too, so.
[00:13:03] Kalen: Right, right, right, right, right, right. I realized, I think what I'll do on the screen share is that by [00:13:10] default I'll just include our videos.
[00:13:13] Kalen: But, 'cause I just noticed the incognito was showing my search history, so it's like, it's my on my auto complete. So it's like, what, what's e [00:13:20] what is even the point? But anyways, and then we can safari. Yeah. That's probably what I should do. And then Safari is where the real crazy stuff goes down. [00:13:30] Just kidding.
[00:13:31] Kalen: I'm just kidding. Just kidding. Um, but, uh, but yeah, and then we can, um, and then if we need, like we can, we, if we [00:13:40] ha if we need it for one thing or another, we have it, but by default I'll probably just not include it. Um, yeah. But, uh, anyways, inside baseball. [00:13:50] Yeah.
[00:13:51] Mark: Um, with the Canada stuff too, I know that Staples Canada is running on Shopify and has been running on Shopify for a while.
[00:13:59] Mark: Mm-hmm. [00:14:00] And that, that is like a story where, um, you know, there was almost like a partnership of like, Hey, I. We're both Canadian companies, like [00:14:10] let's work together. And then some, some dev team somewhere had to like figure out how to make it work. And they have a custom checkout, um, which [00:14:20] is kind of like not allowed on Shopify, but you know, they allow it on Staples
[00:14:26] Kalen: Canada.
[00:14:27] Kalen: They let it slide for Staples Can [00:14:30] Man Harley and his back room deals, man. I get it. Shoot, man, I get it. It's like, you know, and props to them, dude, because [00:14:40] honestly they're punching way above their weight, you know what I mean? In terms of the, well can, Canada has a lot of cool tech companies, but I mean, they're not just a cool, a cool [00:14:50] tech company.
[00:14:50] Kalen: I mean, they're, they're one of the biggest tech companies in the world. I mean, I don't know if they're in the top 10, but, um, I mean, they're absolutely massive. So sometimes you [00:15:00] have to build a, uh, uh, a co, uh, you know, what's the word? Cons, you know, a consensus, um, in, in order to, you know, you gotta pool your [00:15:10] resources and stuff like that.
[00:15:11] Kalen: So like, um, yeah, I think it's, I think it's smart.
[00:15:16] Mark: They're probably the most well known Canadian company now. [00:15:20] I, I think Blackberry used to be the most well known, right? But poor Blackberry, they, they miss the boat there.
[00:15:28] Kalen: Yeah. I, I don't feel [00:15:30] too bad for Blackberry. I mean, they had, they had Dar We do, we feel bad.
[00:15:36] Kalen: I mean, they had a nice run of it. Yeah. And they dropped the [00:15:40] ball, man. I mean, you know, it is, I mean,
[00:15:43] Mark: did you see that Blackberry movie that they, uh, released recently? No. No, I don't think I did. It's [00:15:50] really good. Um Oh, okay. Yeah, it, it's, it's dramatized. Uh Oh, nice. Just couple, couple big name [00:16:00] actors. Um, nice.
[00:16:03] Mark: I was, I was talking to one of my classmates and he used to work for Blackberry, like kind of during the time [00:16:10] of, of the, I don't know, the movie, and he said, mm-hmm. It was pretty accurate. Um, nice. So they, they had a, a nice run and then Apple [00:16:20] ate their lunch basically. Yeah.
[00:16:23] Kalen: Yeah. I mean, and at the time it was like, oh, you, you have to have a keyboard and.
[00:16:28] Kalen: Stuff like that was their [00:16:30] perspective and Yep. It made a lot of sense because early on, dude, when you try to type on a phone and you haven't a, a, a glass thing and you haven't done it before and the keyboards [00:16:40] weren't mm-hmm. The digital keyboards weren't very, I mean, now there's touch sensing and sounds, I mean, there's all sorts of, and people weren't used to it, but back then I could [00:16:50] totally see where they're coming from, that they're like, this is never gonna work.
[00:16:53] Kalen: I mean, I, I can, I kind of wish I had a
[00:16:56] Marker
[00:16:56] Kalen: physical key, you know, keyboard still on my [00:17:00] stupid phone. You know,
[00:17:02] Mark: you can bring around a a, a Bluetooth keyboard. You can pair it with iPhones. Right. Let's prop
[00:17:07] Kalen: it up. Right. Just [00:17:10] carry it in my pocket. Yeah. You're, you're standing in line googling something at a coffee shop and you just whip out your keyboard.[00:17:20]
[00:17:21] Mark: I've seen people bring like IMAX to coffee shops before too, and I'm like, what? Oh, really? Yeah. That's funny. The whole [00:17:30] computer. That's awesome. Just go all in. Um, but with the, the Staples stuff, it actually, it's interesting because I think that the, going more in [00:17:40] that direction now with the commerce components things mm-hmm.
[00:17:44] Mark: Where they're saying, Hey, like, you can use the checkout, um, you can use [00:17:50] our, our product management, you can use our order management. Like we don't mm-hmm. Really care anymore about like what piece you use, but just, just use [00:18:00] some part of Shopify, we'll, we'll figure it out. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think that was a big blocker, um, in, in the past because before, like they, I [00:18:10] mean literally they would say like, this outside checkout isn't allowed.
[00:18:14] Mark: And, you know, they banned like fast, not that startup that came and went. Right. Uh, bolt, you [00:18:20] know, so many external checkouts. They said no, like you can't do that. Um, right. And now I now with big enterprises, they're, [00:18:30] they're being a little more gracious and saying, okay, however you want to use Shopify, it's totally fine.
[00:18:36] Mark: Just use Right. Some piece of Shopify. Right. [00:18:40]
[00:18:40] Kalen: Do you think that they're gonna ultimately be as successful in the enterprise space as they [00:18:50] were, as they are in the consumer space?
[00:18:54] Mark: Um, probably not. I think they have a, a really [00:19:00] big uphill battle to get into those companies and mm-hmm. You know, as part of why they're pushing like the Gartner, you know, report Yeah.[00:19:10]
[00:19:10] Mark: All that kind of stuff. They're trying to get the trust of these CIOs that are used to working with, you know, kind of from the ground up enterprise software, like a [00:19:20] Salesforce or mm-hmm. Like a, a Demandware or high risk or s a p, you know, these things that are like really, they're a pain to use, but enterprises [00:19:30] are used to using them and when there's like almost more of a consumer mid-market solution that's trying to push up enterprise at by [00:19:40] default, I don't think those companies like trust it.
[00:19:43] Mark: Because it's like, oh, this isn't, this isn't ready. So Shopify is having to do a lot to try to [00:19:50] combat that mentality of it not being ready for the enterprise. And I think that's why they're doing all these reports and, you know, big Five consulting stuff.
[00:19:59] Kalen: [00:20:00] Yeah. And, and it's kind of, because I, somebody told me like, it might've been related to Shop Talk, but somebody told me like Shopify never like [00:20:10] presented at conferences, never sponsored.
[00:20:13] Kalen: It might've even been you. I don't know who told me that, but they were, they basically had, they [00:20:20] basically were like, like, it was almost like their absence was like so obvious. It was almost like, we don't care about your dumb spot. Like, we don't need to [00:20:30] do these, we don't need to play these games because our software is just better.
[00:20:34] Kalen: It was kind of like reading between the lines, the way I interpreted it. Yeah. And [00:20:40] in a way like that's kind of badass, like in a way it's kind of a bummer that now they're having to play all these sort of games [00:20:50] and it's like, I, I, I totally understand now when I see the Gartner Report stuff. At first I was like, ah, nobody caress about that thing.
[00:20:59] Kalen: But [00:21:00] then, um, I was like, okay, I get what they're doing and why they're doing it. Yeah. But, um, it's kind of like, [00:21:10] That's sort of the, that's sort of, that's sort of the problem with the enterprise space is that everybody has to do all these dances and play all these games as opposed to just going, [00:21:20] okay, which software is the best?
[00:21:21] Kalen: Let's use that.
[00:21:22] Mark: You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. It's, it's a lot more talk and, and it's sadly like wining and dining [00:21:30] because the, the deals that they make in the enterprise space are so large. Like you have that ability and, you know, if Shopify tries to, to [00:21:40] take every client out for dinner that they have, you know, they, they go broke buying them a few drinks.
[00:21:46] Mark: So with the commerce component stuff, my [00:21:50] understanding is that they have a completely separate like enterprise sales team. Yeah. That probably operates more like an enterprise sales team.
[00:21:58] Kalen: Yeah. [00:22:00] It's like, it's probably like a mini Salesforce company inside of Shopify. Exactly. And I heard some things about some of [00:22:10] the Shopify products, which shall remain nameless, and the teams that work on them that may or may not be more towards [00:22:20] the enterprise side of the company that may or may not have quality that is less than kind of the consumer product.
[00:22:29] Kalen: Yeah. [00:22:30] And it sort of made sense to me. Mm-hmm. Like it sort of clicked for me in a way, [00:22:40] because like we've seen, like that's kind of how enterprisey so Enterprisey software goes, is that. It's just [00:22:50] never as good. Like Right. It's this weird paradox that like people pay more money for it. The decisions are more, the [00:23:00] decision processes are more important, and in theory more thorough.
[00:23:04] Kalen: But in practice it's like incentives get misaligned. You know, [00:23:10] steak dinners factor in way more than they should, like stuff like that. And so it's like the software sort [00:23:20] of suffers. And so like, I firmly believe like the, the core of what Shopify does is the best in the world as far as an independent checkout.
[00:23:28] Kalen: Like Amazon's is probably better [00:23:30] as a checkout. Mm-hmm. But as in something that any, but any merchant can, can own. But then all of the things surrounding the core, you [00:23:40] know, everything has two and a half star. All their first party apps have, you know,
[00:23:44] Mark: that's what I said in that article in modern retail, like Right, sure.
[00:23:49] Mark: I'm gonna get canclled [00:23:50] for that. Right.
[00:23:53] Kalen: But I still think it's a good strategy that they're doing it and, and even though the, the products are actually good, but they get those [00:24:00] star ratings 'cause their support isn't there. Or because there are issues or whatever, but like mm-hmm. I think the strategy makes sense, but it just like, and then as you take it [00:24:10] to the enterprise, and then now they're doing the consulting Gartner reports and who knows where that data's coming from for BigCommerce and stuff.
[00:24:18] Kalen: It's like, you [00:24:20] know, uh, it is like, I don't know, but part of me feels like they, they will win the enterprise just because, I don't know, I feel like [00:24:30] they're a unique company. Like, like I feel like they're just. I don't know. I, I just, you know, part of me thinks they're gonna pull
[00:24:38] Mark: it off. They [00:24:40] still have an uphill battle, and I think it's more of a culture battle and a perception battle.
[00:24:45] Mark: And the enterprise market moves a lot slower. [00:24:50] Yeah. But I, I, I think that they kind of at least have a foot in the door of like, Mindshare, people know the name Shopify. Um, the, the [00:25:00] question is whether they can change the perception of Shopify as being like mid-market, um, right. And to your, to your point about like, I don't know, the [00:25:10] stability and everything, I think a lot of that is because people, people very high up, like make the decisions and then people very low down have to [00:25:20] implement them.
[00:25:20] Mark: Mm-hmm. And that's where, when these big projects get done, it's like someone signing a contract so far away from the actual implementation. Mm-hmm. [00:25:30] Um, and then the people on the bottom just have to like, try to figure out how to make it work. And there's like a deadline and it's like, okay, we're gonna launch.
[00:25:38] Mark: This date, regardless of, you [00:25:40] know, the crazy requirements, regardless of whether the platform really does what it's supposed to do. Right,
[00:25:46] Kalen: right, right. Basically, the more people involved in decisions, [00:25:50] the worse the decisions get. Yeah. So when you have this, when you have millions of single person entrepreneurs making decisions about software, they tend to make [00:26:00] better decisions than the, the, the, these huge companies and very highly paid people that make decisions in a committee of 20.
[00:26:09] Kalen: Yeah. [00:26:10] The decisions end up being worse. Like, but, um, but speak, so speaking of what, shout out to Gil here. Mm-hmm. Um, Greenberg who, [00:26:20] um, he had mentioned, he had tweeted that we're like, we're talking about some of these bigger brands and stuff like that, that, um, uh, working with some absolutely monster brands to [00:26:30] customize checkout, who are actively migrating Shopify next year is going to be a mega year for household brands switching Shopify.
[00:26:37] Kalen: So I'm, I'm, I'm obviously super curious right? Who [00:26:40] these brands are and Gil is. Mm-hmm. Like, I, like he's, I'm, I'm, you know, I, I, I love following him. He's building out his, uh, SAS empire [00:26:50] and um, so that's super, super interesting to. To see.
[00:26:55] Mark: It's cool too that it seems like these brands are able to go to Shopify [00:27:00] and not have to use a completely custom checkout.
[00:27:03] Mark: Um, Shopify's done a lot of work in the past, probably like two years to make their checkout actually like [00:27:10] extendable and customizable. Um, where it isn't like before. I think that was one of the biggest limitations of Shopify. And a lot of the Magento folks [00:27:20] would bring it up of like, oh, but what about the checkout?
[00:27:23] Mark: If you need to do this and this, like you can't. Um, right. And that as Shopify opens it up [00:27:30] for, for customization, a lot of those arguments kind of go out the door.
[00:27:35] Kalen: Right. Right. And, and, and are you talking about, um, [00:27:40] the, uh, commerce components totally customizable thing or just the current state with the customizations to check out and functions and stuff like that?
[00:27:48] Mark: Yeah. Not even, uh, [00:27:50] pulling in the commerce component stuff, they now have, you know, uh, checkout APIs, um, and ways for like checkout blocks, run runs on these new [00:28:00] APIs. Like it, it couldn't exist a year or two ago because Shopify didn't allow that kind of functionality to tie into the checkout. Right, right,
[00:28:09] Kalen: right, right.
[00:28:09] Kalen: [00:28:10] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and, and, and, and, and like, that was the whole thing about Shopify for so long is that the checkout wasn't customizable and Magento's was, but then, [00:28:20] you know, Magento's always falling over. And then Shopify is, you know, they're doing a Black Friday thing and they got this cool ass visualization of bajillion orders a [00:28:30] second.
[00:28:30] Kalen: And I mean, that's extremely hard to do. So it's like, well, that's the reason why you can't customize. And now they've finally started to have a significant amount of [00:28:40] customization while keeping the core thing stable. Um, but it took 'em like 14 years to, to, to do that. So that's pretty, but it's [00:28:50] interesting because, um, I posted a question in one of the Facebook groups, like, what's one of the, what do you love or hate the most about Shopify?
[00:28:56] Kalen: And people, somebody had mentioned like, well, you can't [00:29:00] use uh, Shopify scripts anymore in the, in the checkout you have to use Right. Like the
[00:29:07] Mark: function, Shopify function.
[00:29:09] Kalen: Yeah, [00:29:10] yeah, yeah. And, and so I, part of it was like, okay, I can get the frustration 'cause you're comfortable, you're used to doing this previous thing.
[00:29:17] Kalen: But my read on it was that the [00:29:20] new set of APIs and functions and stuff are so much better of a mm-hmm. Of a model. Yeah. That like, you should be [00:29:30] glad, you should actually be really happy that you have that down. So
[00:29:36] Mark: yeah, you have to kind of rethink some of the ways that you do [00:29:40] things. But I think, you know, overall they've opened up more functionality.
[00:29:44] Mark: Just you have to do it a different way.
[00:29:47] Kalen: Right, totally. [00:29:50]
[00:29:51] Mark: Um, going to our, our Google Doc.
[00:29:55] Kalen: Yes. I start to get lost in the screens. Actually. Try not to look at the screen [00:30:00] too much because it, it, it makes it hard for me to like, concentrate, but, um, but, uh, yeah. What did we want to jump? Oh, we gotta get you to buy [00:30:10] something.
[00:30:10] Kalen: Oh, yeah. You, you wanna buy something?
[00:30:14] Mark: I gotta share my screen.
[00:30:15] Kalen: Yeah, dude. Oh boy. Let's get [00:30:20] into it, man. My
[00:30:22] Mark: first time sharing screen.
[00:30:26] Kalen: May the force be with you.
[00:30:28] Mark: Okay. [00:30:30] Are we live? Yeah. So in honor of you joining the two Tesla Club, [00:30:40] by the way, when, when does your second Tesla come in or is it already coming?
[00:30:45] Mark: Dude, it came in
[00:30:45] Kalen: quick, man. Yeah, it came in like, it came in like [00:30:50] a week, or it might have been a week or like a week and a half from when we ordered it. Nice.
[00:30:57] Mark: Okay. Yeah. Uh, [00:31:00] what, what
[00:31:00] r
[00:31:00] Mark: you have a, a model three and a model Y or what? Two
[00:31:04] Kalen: model Y's One. One white. One gray. Yep. Wow. Good [00:31:10] times. Yeah. Yeah. Matchy.
[00:31:13] Kalen: Matchy.
[00:31:14] Mark: I have a really three and a y, like the [00:31:20] three I, I think is like, probably like worth almost nothing. So I'm just like, I'm not gonna get rid of it. Like, oh, okay.
[00:31:28] Kalen: Gotcha. [00:31:30] How, uh, what year is the three?
[00:31:35] Mark: Uh, 2019. I mean, it's
[00:31:38] funny
[00:31:38] Kalen: how that's like [00:31:40] really old. Yeah. But No, but dude, like my model y I got it used.
[00:31:45] Kalen: I think it's, uh, 21. Mm-hmm. I think I got it [00:31:50] in 22. But anyways, just little things in the current, um, latest model, like the center console, the place where you put the phones, [00:32:00] like, I'm so jealous. I, I, I'm like tempted to steal my wife's car and let her have mine because it's just so much nicer. But it's [00:32:10] like, you know, small things.
[00:32:12] Mark: Yeah. But I think I'm gonna get a charge port sticker thing. [00:32:20] I saw one of your cars had something like this on the back, or was that just something on Instagram?
[00:32:26] Kalen: Or am I That was on Instagram, dude, I was at the, um, I was at the [00:32:30] service center and uh, getting my tire looked at and I was looking at, um, one of the cars in the showroom.
[00:32:37] Kalen: It was a model SS plaid. Oh my [00:32:40] God. Yeah. It was so beautiful. But it had, I thought it was some kind of a spider-man on the back. [00:32:50] Mm-hmm. And that it had, and it looked so cool.
[00:32:58] Kalen: So is that just a sticker? [00:33:00]
[00:33:00] Mark: I think so. I think it was just a sticker. That's dope, man. You can still see. How are you?
[00:33:07] Kalen: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. How are you gonna hide your address? [00:33:10]
[00:33:10] Mark: I'm gonna, I'm gonna use my work, work address. Oh, I already put it in there.
[00:33:16] Kalen: Nice. Oh, it doesn't shed there. [00:33:20]
[00:33:20] Mark: I don't care. I mean, it's, it's already public.
[00:33:22] Mark: It's, it's not a physical location. Yeah,
[00:33:25] Kalen: yeah, yeah, yeah. Gotcha. Gotcha. You got
[00:33:29] Mark: smart. I guess I can get [00:33:30] offers. So Yeah, this stuff is, is new and it's part of like the checkout extensibility, whereas before you couldn't have like all this extra stuff [00:33:40] unless you were on plus. And you have to like, manually add it with scripts.
[00:33:44] Kalen: Right, right. That's pretty awesome. So,
[00:33:47] Mark: so many things,
[00:33:49] Kalen: [00:33:50] but I 1% cash. I wonder if those, I wonder if those things are, uh, hurt conversion rates. You got upsells. [00:34:00] Yeah. You got buttons. Like I hate stuff like that.
[00:34:04] Mark: Your card was declined. That's funny. That's embarrassing. [00:34:10] Mark is
[00:34:10] Kalen: broke. Don't, don't. Definitely don't work with Mark.
[00:34:16] Kalen: He, he's broke.
[00:34:18] Mark: Uh, [00:34:20] now, now I have to use an another dress or I put the part in and then like, we'll have to like edit that out. Maybe, maybe we don't go [00:34:30] for further close sharing the
[00:34:33] spring
[00:34:33] Kalen: share. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We got close. Close enough.
[00:34:38] Mark: So hard. [00:34:40]
[00:34:41] Kalen: I don't know how you travel so much without any money, dude.
[00:34:45] Kalen: I don't know either.[00:34:50]
[00:34:51] Mark: Wait, I don't know. All right. I'm not gonna check out.
[00:34:56] Kalen: All right. We got close. So we got very [00:35:00] close.
[00:35:01] Mark: But like the stuff on the side, uh, I don't think it hurts conversion. It's more about like the average order value, [00:35:10] um, and like Right. Trying to get people to order more at once because Right. Especially shipping, like we've talked about in the past, shipping is [00:35:20] like the biggest obstacle for non-Amazon merchants.
[00:35:24] Mark: Right. And whatever you can do to those, like throw anoth another sticker in the [00:35:30] box that literally like, won't increase the shipping, but, you know, combining those, uh, things.
[00:35:38] Kalen: Yeah. By the way, what's the [00:35:40] shipping, what's the shipping time on. On. This doesn't even say
[00:35:45] Mark: ground. Yeah. I'm just like, I don't know,[00:35:50]
[00:35:51] Mark: like slow ish, fast ish.
[00:35:57] Kalen: Dude, you're not gonna get that for like a [00:36:00] week and a half, dude.
[00:36:02] Mark: Oh man. You know, that's definitely a call out for, for merchants. Like people want to know like Exactly when they're gonna get [00:36:10] something. When they
[00:36:11] Kalen: order. Yeah. People want to know, they wanna know, is it gonna be one day or six hours?
[00:36:19] Mark: That's [00:36:20] what am Amazon set that bar. It's like, am I gonna get it tomorrow? Am I gonna get it someday? Like,
[00:36:28] Kalen: yeah, yeah, [00:36:30] yeah. It's, it's surprising me that that isn't easier to just sort of fix, but that shows that I haven't like, thought very much [00:36:40] about it.
[00:36:41] Mark: I think maybe, uh, deliver or Flexport has to fix that, right?
[00:36:46] Mark: Yeah. That's, that's the, the savior [00:36:50] to Shopify shipping problems.
[00:36:52] Kalen: Yeah, dude. Hopefully, man. Um, yeah. Yeah. [00:37:00] It's, oh, I saw somebody mention something about Buy With Prime. Oh, yeah. And they were saying that it was pretty, [00:37:10] uh, pretty bad because like, you, it doesn't like, it doesn't like integrate with, um, you know, [00:37:20] like you don't, it doesn't pull the cu let me pull the tweet up.
[00:37:23] Kalen: It doesn't like pull the customer information into, um, you know, [00:37:30] into, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's just all disco ovulated, you know? Yeah. Um, oh, here we go. He goes, um, oh, this one guy tweeted, he said, [00:37:40] After using Buy With Prime for an eight figure brand this year. I can confirm it's terrible. And then he said, um, it doesn't function at all.
[00:37:47] Kalen: Well, with Shopify, customers don't get [00:37:50] typical Shopify email flow purchase isn't recorded in customer account, have to use a separate portal for customer experience, refunds and tracking. [00:38:00] Customers can't use discounts and doesn't work for subscriptions. So it's ba I mean, so it's basically, it's basically like, I mean, it is terrible from that perspective.
[00:38:09] Kalen: Mm-hmm. You know, [00:38:10]
[00:38:10] Mark: it's, um, they've, they've improved it from a customer perspective though. Actually, I'll, I'll share my screen real quick. Okay. [00:38:20] Um, but it's controversial because it takes them off of Shopify to, to buy the, to [00:38:30] buy it and the orders don't flow back into Shopify. So, If you click Buy with Prime, uh, now they actually have their, [00:38:40] this little drawer card, they didn't have it before, but one complaint before is like you could only like buy some one thing at a time.
[00:38:49] Mark: Mm-hmm. [00:38:50] So now they have that, and then you click proceed with checkout, and then it makes you log into Amazon. I've already done that. And then, [00:39:00] um, and then they have a little checkout, special checkout for you. Before it was kind of a, that's. It, it, it was, it was kind of [00:39:10] janky the checkout. Um, but now it was pretty smooth.
[00:39:14] Mark: That
[00:39:14] Kalen: is pretty smooth. Yeah. And it's probably just, um, [00:39:20] either them not wanting to share customer data or probably that, or maybe Shopify not exposing certain APIs to them.
[00:39:29] Mark: I think Shopify [00:39:30] one didn't want them to do it at all, so they haven't really been cooperating. Um, yeah, I could imagine that. And [00:39:40] Amazon's just like, well, we'll do, do it without you.
[00:39:43] Mark: Um mm-hmm. But maybe if there was more cooperation, Amazon could flow the orders back into [00:39:50] Shopify, so there was more customer data. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But Shopify loves the checkout and they love payments, and that's kind of how they make their money. [00:40:00] So they, yeah. They're not super incentivized to, to help Amazon with a, a great integration for that.
[00:40:06] Mark: Yeah.
[00:40:07] Kalen: Yeah, yeah. So, I [00:40:10] mean, yeah, so that may be mostly Shopify being the reason why it sucks, but, um, but I wouldn't be surprised if Amazon didn't wanna share customer data. [00:40:20] I don't know if they, if they do share, if they do share customer data in general with Buy with Prime. Yeah. Or if [00:40:30] they keep it like locked in.
[00:40:32] Mark: I think, I think they share the customer data, but it just, it doesn't flow back into the systems
[00:40:38] Kalen: normally. Okay. [00:40:40] Okay. So, so, so it might be entirely Shopify that's, that's making the integration suck, which is, which is fair because they're, that's their main competitor [00:40:50]
[00:40:50] Mark: in a way. Yeah. And I, I have a feeling Shopify maybe wanted, uh, a percentage, like a cut, and Amazon's like, no.
[00:40:59] Mark: I don't [00:41:00] really want to give you a cut. And so maybe they're still still negotiating on it. Gotcha. 'cause right now, uh, Shopify doesn't get anything if you do a buy with Prime [00:41:10] order. 'cause Shopify doesn't even know about it. It doesn't come through as, as an order in Shopify. Right, right, right,
[00:41:18] Kalen: right. [00:41:20] Yeah, that's interesting.
[00:41:24] Kalen: Um, Isha, what's your, what's your secret to writing less email. [00:41:30]
[00:41:30] Mark: Hiring more people. Nice. Nice. Amanda's clients like, nice. When I started, I was managing all the clients and I [00:41:40] think at one point I was personally managing like 30, 40 clients. And then I realized like, that's not sustainable, that's not scalable.
[00:41:49] Mark: And, [00:41:50] but I didn't like trust people to talk to the clients. Um, 'cause I thought that's what clients wanted. They wanted to talk to me. Mm-hmm. [00:42:00] And the more and more, um, I, I find people that do like talking to clients, I realize I, I don't like talk to [00:42:10] talk to talk to clients. And a lot of people are actually way better at, at than me.
[00:42:15] Mark: So I'm like, that's great. You know? Mm-hmm. You wanna have meetings with [00:42:20] clients, that's fine. Like, I, I, I don't even like get on calls a lot of times with clients.
[00:42:28] Kalen: Nice man. Living a dream. [00:42:30] What, what's, um, what's, like, what would you say is the, is the thing that you like to do and are, [00:42:40] and are good at within
[00:42:42] Mark: in your realm?
[00:42:45] Mark: Um, I think it's a bit more in, in the strategy. I. [00:42:50] Hey, uh, you know, choosing the platform, um, and kind of like ar the architecture of like, okay, we're gonna use this platform, [00:43:00] um, use these apps, uh, here, here's how like, we can best accomplish your goals. Versus like, I'm not [00:43:10] quite so much in the we weeds of like, okay, how do we code this little thing?
[00:43:15] Mark: Like mm-hmm. I used to be, I used to be that person, but mm-hmm. Uh, I realized that [00:43:20] when, when you're so in the weeds, you, you don't have like a good big picture view of like, what's going on. Mm-hmm. I kind of had to force myself to get out [00:43:30] of, you know, doing the nitty gritty to be able to have kind of the mind, mind space to, to think about the other stuff.
[00:43:37] Mark: 'cause otherwise I was just worrying about, okay, how, [00:43:40] how am I gonna code this? Like mm-hmm. I don't want to do it this way 'cause I don't wanna write that
[00:43:44] Kalen: code. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that makes sense. Doesn't
[00:43:49] Mark: [00:43:50] that make sense? What, how? How's your. You know, role change and or you have a [00:44:00] job versus like running a company, you
[00:44:02] Kalen: know?
[00:44:03] Kalen: Yeah. It's, it's actually been, um, similar in the sense that, um, I'm doing, I don't, I have less, uh, you know, [00:44:10] responsibilities. Like, for so long I've been the guy that has to respond to every single email, you know? Mm-hmm. Do every call, and then I would just like, not do calls. I'd be like, uh, [00:44:20] you know, somebody would wanna like, do business with me.
[00:44:23] Kalen: Me, I'd be like, uh, can you just email me? Mm-hmm. You know? Um, so like, uh, yeah. So that's [00:44:30] been good actually because, um, you know, like somebody, um, Um, uh, my buddy, uh, roped me into this ebook that a couple [00:44:40] different tech vendors were working on for Black Friday. And then we have a guy that writes content, so he like knocked out the content and I was like, I felt a little weird about [00:44:50] it 'cause I felt like I should have done that, but, um, like that was cool.
[00:44:54] Kalen: And so it's, it's actually really nice that I don't have to do everything. [00:45:00] Um, and I'm really, I'm really liking that I do still have to do calls, which I sometimes have a love relationship, love hate relationship with calls. Yeah. [00:45:10] Um, like I had this one possible partner, which is like, they're like a bigger company and we did a call and I was like, excited 'cause it's like a bigger company.[00:45:20]
[00:45:20] Kalen: But then I realized I don't think we're very high on their list. I think that they're just sort of, I. Kind of kicking the tires a little bit. And so then I was just [00:45:30] like, uh, so they like checked in again and I was like, uh, like, uh, do I really have to do this call? So then I kind of pushed back a little [00:45:40] bit, but, um, but in general it's, it's, it's pretty good.
[00:45:46] Kalen: And um, and then they, and then they let me work on this [00:45:50] podcast, which was, which was cool. Yeah. Dedicated some work time to that, which was sweet. Shout out to Mesa. Um, so slapping
[00:45:58] Mark: the logo, now, this is your responsibility. This [00:46:00] is part of your job right
[00:46:01] Kalen: there. Yeah. Yeah. Which, which is, which is, helps a lot to keep, keep it going.
[00:46:07] Kalen: So yeah, it's, yeah, it's [00:46:10] going pretty good. But, but I do, I do obviously miss, you know, being the man in charge of everything. There's something nice about that, right? Um, [00:46:20]
[00:46:20] Mark: At, at Commerce Hero, did you have like much of a team and did you enjoy managing people or is that like, you're like, no, I don't
[00:46:28] Kalen: like that.
[00:46:29] Kalen: Yeah, no, I [00:46:30] didn't. I never had a team. I never, um, I think I tried to hire one, one my c o o one time to help with some things that didn't last too long. Yeah, I think I might've tried to [00:46:40] hire a support person, hired some video editing help from time to time. But yeah, I've just never been good at building teams, man.
[00:46:48] Kalen: I've, I've never been, [00:46:50] ironically, I've never been good at it. Um, and so I never, uh, I never did it. I would just do everything myself and, [00:47:00] um, and it, I mean, it worked pretty well in a sense, but then I just thought I kind of got burnt out on it even though there wasn't like a lot of work. [00:47:10] Time-wise, but, but I still, somehow, um, I just was coasting.
[00:47:19] Kalen: I was just kind of [00:47:20] coasting and, and you know, something, you can, if you build something up, it can, it can chug along for a while, but you can't coast indefinitely, you know, and I kind of knew that [00:47:30] in the back of my head. Um, but it eventually just kind of, I. Petered out, but, um, mm-hmm. So I'm, I'm,
[00:47:37] Mark: yeah. Yeah.
[00:47:39] Mark: That's an [00:47:40] interesting, I think difference between like a SaaS business and an agency, more service based business because mm-hmm. I didn't really hire anyone for like, four or five years and what, [00:47:50] like, made me hire people mm-hmm. Was that like, I over overcommitted to project and so I had too much work and so I was like, oh, okay, I should hire people [00:48:00] to help me.
[00:48:01] Mark: Mm-hmm. Because I, I can't scale the business, you know, just having my 40 hours a week mm-hmm. Versus SaaS, it like kind of seemed [00:48:10] more manageable as one person and you can. Choose, you know? Mm-hmm. How much energy you put into it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But if and if you're on the service side and you [00:48:20] just have these things to get done and like clients are breathing down your neck mm-hmm.
[00:48:24] Mark: It kind of more incentivizes you to be like, okay, maybe some people can help me get all this stuff done.
[00:48:29] Kalen: [00:48:30] Yeah. You're like forced to do it and then because you're forced to do it, you learn to do it, and then you learn to delegate and then, you know, you eventually get to the point where [00:48:40] you have quite a bit of flexibility.
[00:48:42] Kalen: Yeah. And I got into this Twitter argument with some guy that was like saying, he was talking about his SaaS and he's like, I've [00:48:50] done, I've built affiliate businesses. That was the big red flag. Affiliate businesses, agencies, e-commerce brands. And now I'm building a SaaS. And [00:49:00] so then somebody respond and I'm like, okay, fine, dude, whatever.
[00:49:03] Kalen: And it, these are just things that show up in my feet. Yeah. I'm not going and hunting around, you know? And then some, somebody [00:49:10] responded and said, asked something about building the sass, and then he was like, well, you can't do it as a, as a, you can't do it by yourself. You can't build a sass by yourself.
[00:49:19] Kalen: And I was like, [00:49:20] uh, yeah, you can. And then he's like, well, it's, I, we have 22 people that have been working for 18 months on our dah, dah, dah, dah. And I was like, [00:49:30] I was like, okay, like that's cool. Like there's different types and levels of complexity, but there's an entire I. Movement of people building SaaS as an [00:49:40] individual and Yeah.
[00:49:41] Kalen: Um, you know, I mean like Gil again is a great example.
[00:49:45] Mark: Whole, like Indie hacker community is
[00:49:48] Kalen: all about Yeah. That, yeah. Yeah, right. [00:49:50] I forgot about that. That, yeah, that's exactly it. The holy Yeah. And so, um, I was like, dude, you know,
[00:49:57] Mark: Like the, uh, you know, level [00:50:00] levels like that. Yes. Made Nomad list. Yes. He's like, he famously brags about Nomad List, you know, makes, I don't know, a hundred k a month or something, and it's [00:50:10] like running on like one P H P file.
[00:50:12] Mark: That
[00:50:12] Kalen: all Yeah, I know, know, dude. And he's like,
[00:50:16] Mark: I know that I have like one server, like $200 a month or something, yo. [00:50:20] Yeah.
[00:50:21] Kalen: It's like, yeah, it's crazy, man. That guy. And then it is just p h p and jQuery just for, for life. Like, [00:50:30] he does not give a damn. Yeah. Yeah. It's,
[00:50:33] Mark: that's the,
[00:50:35] Kalen: that's the dream, dude. That's the frigging dream.
[00:50:37] Kalen: Um, But, [00:50:40] uh, but yeah, I was gonna, what was I gonna, I was gonna highlight, oh, which kind of ties into this thing that, um, I was thinking about, like Harley tweeted about, you know, the entrepreneurs, [00:50:50] um, you know, the world needs more entrepreneurs. That's what we're making possible. Shopify Happy World, entrepreneurs Day.
[00:50:57] Kalen: Yeah. And it's funny because like, I'm not an [00:51:00] entrepreneur anymore. Although, I guess you could say I kind of am sort of at heart or whatever, but, um, but I, I, I think the mission of Shopify is [00:51:10] really cool, you know? Mm-hmm. Even though, like you might say, well, if it's so cool, then why don't you do it yourself?
[00:51:15] Kalen: You know what I mean? But like, I do think it's really cool and, uh, [00:51:20] when people can do that, it's awesome. And I'd actually like love at some point to, to actually make a physical product, like maybe a pickleball something or [00:51:30] other, like, yeah. Now that I'm so into pickleball. But, um, but like, that would be a totally different business from, you know, tech and stuff like that.[00:51:40]
[00:51:40] Kalen: Right. But, um, but yeah, like, I, I really think the mission is really cool. Like, um, in a way I don't think Magento like [00:51:50] empowered the, uh, individual entrepreneur in quite the same way. Like, especially in recent years, it was all about, you know, bigger companies or me, or at least medium sized companies. [00:52:00] And so I think that's really cool, but simultaneously, like I'm not an entrepreneur anymore, so it's a little bit of a contradiction, you know?
[00:52:08] Kalen: Right.
[00:52:09] Mark: But I think [00:52:10] Shopify's done a really good job of slowly going up market, but not forgetting about, you know, the entrepreneurs that are just starting out that, you [00:52:20] know, don't have any experience and are trying to start a Shopify from, from $0 and, you know, maybe it works, right? Maybe it doesn't. Um, and they didn't [00:52:30] have to invest a lot of money, and at least the, the e-commerce part, you know, that if it, if it doesn't work, it was, they're only out like $30 a month for a year or [00:52:40] so.
[00:52:40] Mark: So I think, I do think that they really like empower. Entrepreneurs and um, you know, 10 years ago if you wanted to start an e-commerce site, you [00:52:50] probably would have to use something like Magento or like, I think OS commerce. Like there was all these janky solutions and you would definitely have to hire a developer.[00:53:00]
[00:53:00] Mark: From the get go. Like you, you wouldn't even be able to like just get a website to shop up, you know, if you weren't a developer. So they [00:53:10] definitely like, you know, broaden, broaden their, I don't know their market right. And I don't think they've forgotten about them. Like, like Magento. [00:53:20] Um, Magento definitely went up market and they left the, the, the lower end of the market
[00:53:26] Kalen: even.
[00:53:27] Kalen: Totally, totally. Yeah. [00:53:30] Yeah, absolutely. And like that was something that we'd argue about all the time in the Magento community is like, yeah, what about the open source enthusiasts? [00:53:40] You know? Mm-hmm. Like, uh, but yeah, I mean, comparing the two, it's, it's clear and actually to the point where for people like us who are [00:53:50] trying to, most of the time sell or market to the more of the plus side of the ecosystem or the whatever, you know, the, [00:54:00] whatever that is, the advanced plus side of the ecosystem, it's like if you go to the forums, There's a mix of, like, you'll have one question from somebody [00:54:10] who's day one, you know, like, yeah.
[00:54:14] Kalen: You know, obviously, you know, very much on a day one entrepreneur, no technical [00:54:20] background whatsoever. And the next question is somebody who's like a C T O for like a brand that has a hundred people, you [00:54:30] know, type of, and, and that's the person we want to, to, to talk to and to sell to ultimately. Um, so it's actually [00:54:40] frustrating from that perspective of trying to isolate.
[00:54:43] Kalen: I keep thinking, I wish there was. A Shopify forums for the bigger stores. [00:54:50] Right. Plus only. Yeah. Um, because in terms of what my job is, that's my job, you know, is to [00:55:00] Yeah. Reach out to those people essentially. Um, the,
[00:55:04] Mark: the sad thing, it's like, it's honorable that Shopify like has such a passion for, you know, people [00:55:10] just starting out and the entrepreneurs, right?
[00:55:12] Mark: But on the flip side for the ecosystem, you know, app, app developers, the, the support tickets from a [00:55:20] merchant that's doing $10 a month versus, you know, the thousand dollars a month is the same cost and the reviews a lot of times are, you know, left by the [00:55:30] lower end. So it, it is kind of like a drain on the ecosystem.
[00:55:34] Mark: And I don't know exactly how. They can balance, like being supportive [00:55:40] without it. Right. Being too much support.
[00:55:43] Kalen: Right. Yeah. It's an interesting, um, tension there because without the, the newer [00:55:50] entrepreneurs, um, uh, you know, that's like the lifeblood in a sense. Yeah. Like, you know, that's the ground. Um, uh, you know, [00:56:00] grassroots.
[00:56:01] Kalen: That's the grassroots, you know? Yeah. And, and that's what like where Shopify came from. And so you need to continue to have that, but it [00:56:10] creates that tension. But like what they did with the reviews, where they're ranking them by, um, Ranking the reviews by, um, [00:56:20] like if there's something sort of more meaningful in the review.
[00:56:23] Kalen: I can't remember. Right. I think they're like ranking if, you know, doing some AI stuff to Yeah. [00:56:30] Surface up the reviews that ha are more, have more to say. Like that probably helps to cut out, cut down on some of the like lower [00:56:40] effort, like reviews from the newer stores. Yeah. But yeah, it's a tricky thing to
[00:56:45] Mark: solve, I think.
[00:56:47] Mark: And I think the Shopify sidekick too [00:56:50] is really targeted towards maybe the lower end of the market to have a, a support, um, outlet for them. Uh, that doesn't require any [00:57:00] resources from Shopify 'cause. Yeah, I've heard that they really scaled up their customer service team during Covid 'cause there was so much demand, but then mm-hmm.
[00:57:08] Mark: They realized it was so [00:57:10] expensive and so now they're trying to scale it back and, you know, save on cost, but they don't. Mm-hmm. They don't want to, you know, completely let people down. Um, [00:57:20] and AI to the rescue, you know, chat, G P T comes
[00:57:23] Kalen: just as Right. Right. Do you, uh, do you know anybody that's using that?
[00:57:28] Kalen: Any of your clients that are starting [00:57:30] to use it for little things here and there? I
[00:57:33] Mark: don't think it's totally out yet,
[00:57:36] Kalen: so. Okay. I don't know anyone's using it,
[00:57:38] Mark: but there's probably [00:57:40] like some sort of a closed beta, so. Okay. Maybe some people are using it, but it's not, you can't just go and install it.
[00:57:47] Kalen: Gotcha.
[00:57:47] Kalen: Gotcha. That's another one of the funny things I [00:57:50] noticed in the Shopify ecosystem is that something will be released or announced and then it, it's in the, um, it's in the mind share of everyone, you know, and everybody [00:58:00] has thoughts on it and stuff like that. And then you go like, Hey, have you used it? And then people are like, oh no.
[00:58:04] Kalen: It's like, I don't even know if it's out. It's such a, Such, such a weird, [00:58:10] you know, but in sense they gotta roll it out gradually. I mean, it totally makes sense.
[00:58:16] Mark: That's the thing with the additions, it's a combination of things that they've already [00:58:20] released, things that they're releasing that day, and then things that aren't released.
[00:58:24] Mark: And it's coming someday. Yeah, someday in the
[00:58:27] Kalen: future. But it's always [00:58:30] phrased in the like present tense. It's always phrase. Yeah. Yeah. It's, so drop the thing, it's like a Vulcan mind [00:58:40] swipe type of thing. But um,
[00:58:42] Mark: and we even Toby had like a video even I think before editions, like announcing sidekick. Yeah. It was just such a [00:58:50] push and then like, It's not available.
[00:58:53] Mark: It's just, and there's no release date either. Like that's right's
[00:58:57] Kalen: kind of confusing. But actually I'm a big [00:59:00] fan of not having deadlines. Like I think that you work on it and when it's ready, it's ready. Like I think that the base camp guys, Jason [00:59:10] free and d h h I think they had, had, uh, gone with that philosophy.
[00:59:15] Kalen: And, um, like we were talking about how the enterprise [00:59:20] sales cycles tend to be real deadline driven and that tends to make things worse. Yeah. So I actually, I, I think it's a good way to do software, but it [00:59:30] is like, you do just want a date, like gimme a date, like when, you know, you just want get your grubby hands on it basically.
[00:59:37] Kalen: Yeah, yeah.
[00:59:38] Mark: Like, well [00:59:40] maybe when it's in beta anyway, they assumed it's gonna get out, so it's smart to go ahead and make a, a public announcement and like get people excited over it. [00:59:50] And I just went, honestly, I wish the betas were a little more open, like, alright, I, I'm just opting in. But most of the time if they have a beta [01:00:00] it's, it's like, okay, get on the waiting list and most people won't get into the beta, so maybe Right.
[01:00:05] Mark: You know, maybe they could have more of an open beta program.
[01:00:08] Kalen: Yeah. Like maybe if they [01:00:10] could just say, Hey, here's where you are in the queue. You know what I mean? Yeah. And then, but I'm, but I'm guessing they probably look at that list and they probably go, all right, we want this, this [01:00:20] store, we want this.
[01:00:20] Kalen: You know? Yeah. And maybe that's, they probably don't just go straight in, in order. Um, so whereas [01:00:30] like with a Tesla pre-order, or you order a Tesla, you know where you are in the line. Mm-hmm. And you're gonna, you know what I mean? You're gonna get, get it at that point. But [01:00:40] yeah, that would be kind of cool. Um,
[01:00:43] Mark: so your, you said your Tesla came like pretty quick, right?
[01:00:47] Kalen: Pretty quick, man. Yeah. It was like, it's [01:00:50] like a week or so. Um, nice. And uh, yeah, it's because what happened was it was a pretty standard model y and then we, we wanted a tow hitch. [01:01:00] And then we wanted like the nicer tires. And then after we ordered it, they, they sent a message and they were like, oh, we have a [01:01:10] model Y that's really similar, but it doesn't have the tow hitch.
[01:01:13] Kalen: And I told my wife, I was like, we gotta have the tow hitch. And then, um, and then there was another one [01:01:20] that had the tow hitch, but it didn't have the tires. And then I told her, I was like, honestly, like the tires are kind of a nice to have. Yeah. But she didn't accept that one in [01:01:30] time, so she missed that one.
[01:01:32] Kalen: And then the, and then the next one that came out had everything and it was like ready in like a week. Nice. So I [01:01:40] was glad we didn't actually, when we went to pick it up, I thought we were getting one that didn't have the upgraded tires. Mm-hmm. And then when I saw it I was like, oh dang, we got the [01:01:50] tires.
[01:01:50] Kalen: 'cause they just looked, you know, they looked kind of smooth. Nice. Yeah. So, Hey, when am I coming to Miami? Dude. [01:02:00] I'm, no, I'm just kidding. I'm leaving tomorrow. No, I know. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.
[01:02:05] Mark: I dunno why. I mean, you can come while I'm not here too.
[01:02:09] Kalen: Cool. [01:02:10] Cool.
