Will the church live its peculiar, Jesus-centered identity?

In this episode, Presbyterian minister and former Fuller Seminary president Mark Labberton joins Nikki Toyama-Szeto to wrestle with the urgent question: Will the church live its true identity? Reflecting on his ministry in Berkeley among “cultured despisers,” his pastoral experience during the AIDS crisis of the ‘80s and ‘90s, and his convening of the Rethinking Church Initiative, Labberton describes the church as a “peculiar community”—one that must embody love, justice, and mercy across difference. Together, Nikki and Mark explore the scandal of the church’s self-delusion, the urgent need for public credibility, and the role of imagination, curiosity, and presence in cultivating transformative communities. Labberton insists the church is meant to be God’s chief apologetic in the world: a living witness of Christ’s love across cultures, identities, and divides.

Key Moments

• "I was just amazed at how the thing that cracked open the universe was Jesus' teaching of the kingdom of God."
• "Many people not in the church want to believe, but they find that the church is one of the great hurdles."
• "Yeah, those are my people." (on Schleiermacher’s “cultured despisers”)
• "Aren't we all?" (Berkeley art store clerk to Mark’s question)
• "How dare you? How dare you? How dare you? How dare you. In 42 different directions."
• "I began to even more deeply grieve… the way that the church shoots itself in the foot or discredits the gospel by its own doing."
• "It underscored the essential risk of moving out of our comfort zones and into new places of hopefully love and mercy and support."
• "To me, the issue at stake is really, will the church live its identity?"
• "Why would I not wanna live or lead in a world where those realities are at hand almost every day?"
• "The urgency for me continues to be the way the church is meant to be God's chief apologetic… God's plan A, and there is no plan B."

About the Contributors

Mark Labberton is a Presbyterian minister and served as president of Fuller Seminary from 2013–2022. Previously, he was pastor of First Presbyterian Church of Berkeley, California. He is the author of The Dangerous Act of Worship and a leader in rethinking the church’s mission of love, justice, and credible witness in today’s world. Listen to his weekly podcast, Conversing.

Nikki Toyama-Szeto is Executive Director of Christians for Social Action, where she works with leaders from across sectors to catalyze faith into action for justice. She hosts Credible Witness and writes widely on the intersection of faith, justice, and global engagement.

Show Notes

• Mark Labberton on growing up outside church, early skepticism, and finding Jesus’s radical, inclusive vision of community
• “Cultured despisers” (Friedrich Schleiermacher) and their relevance today
• “The church is meant to be God’s chief apologetic… God’s plan A, and there is no plan B.”
• “I’m looking for something that might not exist.” “Aren’t we all?”,
• Imaginary Berkeley pulpit protestors demanding “How dare you?”
• The AIDS crisis: national church rhetoric vs. local pastoral presence in hospices
• The Dangerous Act of Worship — Labberton’s book exploring tension, suffering, and faithful witness
• The scandal of small-making, self-delusion, and cultural captivity in the church
• Identity question: Will the church live out its peculiar Jesus-centered identity as a community?
• Cultivating curiosity: listening to Uber drivers, hearing hidden immigrant and racialized stories
• Convening the Rethinking Church Initiative: rethinking beyond institutional boundaries and holding space for diverse experiences of Christianity
• Honest collisions of revival vs. planning, institutional vs. independent voices
• The “beautiful mess” of diverse community and discipleship
• Jesus’s question “What would Jesus do?” reclaimed as true Christian discernment
• The urgency of living identity, embodying justice, enemy love, and sacrificial action

Credible Witness is brought to you by the Rethinking Church Initiative. Produced and edited by Mark Labberton, Sarey Martin Concepcion and Evan Rosa. Hosted by Nikki Toyama-Szeto.

Special thanks to Fuller Theological Seminary, Christians for Social Action, and to Brenda Salter McNeill, whose book inspired the title of the show.

For more information, visit CredibleWitness.us.