Matching Minds with Sondheim: The Podcast

Barry Joseph brings his Matching Minds with Sondheim book tour to London, leading a Sondheim games workshop and presenting “The Puzzling Mind of Sondheim” at NYU London and a special event at Upstairs at the Gatehouse with the Stephen Sondheim Society. The episode includes live performance excerpts (with Oliver Sidney, Rhys Lambert, and Colm Molloy), a first live rendition of the podcast theme, and discussion of Sondheim’s puzzle-editing legacy at New York Magazine, his ties to British cryptics, and his iterative playtesting process, alongside extensive thanks to collaborators, performers, and coordinators.

00:00 London Tour Whirlwind

02:31 NYU London Welcome

04:20 Barry Opens The Talk

07:19 Sondheim Board Game Stardom

10:24 Bartletts Parlor Game Demo

16:08 Wordplay And Cryptics

22:48 Puzzle Boxes And Clarity

26:36 Q And A Highlights

33:33 Sondheim Society Night Begins

36:11 Live Theme Song Performance

38:00 Puzzles As Art Order

39:18 Clarity vs Connection

41:57 Warmup Treasure Clues

44:48 Bernstein Board Game

48:48 Treasure Hunt Theater

51:40 British Cryptic Roots

53:55 Apex Crossword Circle

57:49 Bespoke Jigsaw Gifts

01:02:23 Songs and Game Metaphors

01:09:38 Parlor Game Murder

01:16:27 Q&A Design Lessons

Special Links:

Thanks to everyone who contributed behind the scenes to this episode: the Musical Stingers composed by Mateo Chavez Lewis, our line producer Dennis Caouki, and the theme song to our podcast with lyrics and music by Colm Molloy and sung by the one and only Anne Morrison. And of course thank you to both New York University and The Stephen Sondheim Society.

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This episode looks at how Matching Minds with Sondheim is used as a college textbook. Eric Zimmerman describes integrating the book’s design-principle lists into a puzzle unit at New York University where students build puzzles under constraints, while former student A. Raph Corwin explains how Sondheim’s principles shaped her narrative puzzle work and led to founding Pigeon’s Path Games, creating location-specific outdoor puzzle game books such as A Haunting in Greenwich Village.

00:00 Scam Warning Intro

09:56 Episode Setup and Guests

12:19 Eric Class Breakdown

14:55 Puzzle Unit in Practice

17:03 Sondheim Meets Game Design

18:29 Teaching with Principles

22:15 Rules Literacy and Humor

24:14 Design Principle Spotlight

25:25 Workshops to Business

28:47 Pigeons Path Games Launch

30:32 Praise and Viability Lessons

33:35 Wrap Up and Credits

Special Links:

Thanks to everyone who contributed behind the scenes to this episode: the Musical Stingers composed by Mateo Chavez Lewis, our line producer Dennis Caouki, and the theme song to our podcast with lyrics and music by Colm Molloy and sung by the one only Anne Morrison, currently on the road starring in Kimberly Akimbo.

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Our latest episode focuses on welcoming NYU Game Center co-founder Eric Zimmerman to discuss Stephen Sondheim’s board game designs as experience-forward, theatrical “art pieces.” Barry and Eric examine Sondheim’s 1953 game Stardom (or The Game of Camp), inspired by a Hollywood stars’ homes map and featuring rituals, hidden goals, props, and a climb through stardom by secretly “sleeping with” assigned actresses; Joseph shares Sondheim’s letter registering the rules and stating intent to market the game, plus notes on possible re-skins. They also discuss Sondheim’s birthday game for producer Hal Prince (Producer/The Game of Hal Prince), using hand-typed cards with gossip, critics, and Broadway’s economic systems, and Sondheim’s three-game 50th-birthday set for Leonard Bernstein, The Great Conductor Hunt—Diploma (with recorded “chance” audio), Itinerary, and the Lucite mazed Podium (two designed by Milton Glaser).

00:00 Theater Meets Games

00:49 Meet Eric Zimmerman

03:23 Games as Art Culture

05:58 Trivia and Ritual Start

07:26 Stardom Camp Hollywood

14:35 Rules Hidden Goals

19:22 Props and Commercial Plans

23:31 The Game of Producer for Hal Prince

27:42 The Great Conductor Hunt for Leonard Bernstein

35:40 Stars are shining bright!

Special Links:

Eric Zimmerman

NYU’s Game Center

Colm Molloy

Ann Morrison

Mateo Chavez Lewis

Thanks to everyone who contributed behind the scenes to this episode: the Musical Stingers composed by Mateo Chavez Lewis, our line producer Dennis Caouki, and the theme song to our podcast with lyrics and music by Colm Molloy and sung by the one only Anne Morrison, currently on the road starring in Kimberly Akimbo.

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It’s a mash-up! Producer Dennis Caouki weaves together audio from two recent interviews—one with mathematician Art Benjamin (via the National Museum of Mathematics’ Starring Math webinar series) and one from Shoshana Greenberg’s Scene to Song podcast—into a single conversation. The combined interview explores Sondheim’s connections to math, puzzles, and games; cryptic crosswords; design values like misdirection and accessibility; and how those ideas appear in Sondheim’s work (including Into the Woods, A Little Night Music, Sweeney Todd, Company, and Pacific Overtures). The discussion also touches on Schmigadoon! season two’s Sondheim-inspired mashups, Hadestown, The Last of Sheila, and the Knives Out films as modern homages.  

00:00 Podcast Updates Ahead

00:27 Audiobook Booth Stories

03:05 Two Interviews One Episode

05:35 Meet Barry Joseph

08:49 Hadestown As Ritual

10:10 Sondheim And Math Roots

11:45 Math In A Little Night Music

15:28 Into The Woods London Take

19:50 CD-ROM Game That Never Was

22:58 Sondheim Puzzle Design Values

26:15 Treasure Hunt Phone Puzzle

27:58 Puzzles For Anybody

29:13 Matching Minds Explained

29:59 Inside Sondheim’s Mind

31:18 Bernstein Puzzle Rivalry

32:49 Lyrics as Game Design

37:38 Cryptic Crosswords Explained

39:54 Solving a Clue Live

43:27 Games in the Shows

45:57 Knives Out Homages

47:41 Schmigadoon Mashup Magic

53:15 Broadway Hopes and Farewell

Special Links:

Scene to Song with Shoshana Greenberg

Art Benjamin - ThatMathShow.com

Colm Molloy

Ann Morrison

Mateo Chavez Lewis

Thanks to everyone who contributed behind the scenes to this episode: the Musical Stingers composed by Mateo Chavez Lewis, our line producer Dennis Caouki, and the theme song to our podcast with lyrics and music by Colm Molloy and sung by the one only Anne Morrison, currently on the road starring in Kimberly Akimbo.

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Our latest episode focuses on Stephen Sondheim’s fascination with puzzle boxes, featuring guest David Staller, founding artistic director of the Gingold Theatrical Group. Staller describes his Shaw-inspired connection to Sondheim through Hermione Gingold, their friendship and correspondence, and Sondheim’s attraction to puzzles as finite, controllable structures that offered relief from the chaos of human relationships and creative pressures. The episode includes rare audio from Sondheim’s Games Magazine interview about collecting and admiring puzzle boxes, plus excerpts from Barry’s interview with puzzle-box designer Kagen Sound (on learning Sondheim was a client and seeing his boxes in the film Six by Sondheim). Staller recounts gifting Sondheim puzzle boxes (including Japanese artisan-made boxes), treasure-hunt parties and movie-themed murder mysteries, a final unopened birthday box returned after Sondheim’s death, and finding a hidden note during the 2024 Doyle auction. He also describes Sondheim’s love for, and association with the boy-star of, the comic strip Calvin and Hobbes. 

00:00 Everything Is A Puzzle

01:44 Meet Guest David Staller

02:55 Shaw Connection To Sondheim

05:11 Why Games Felt Safe

07:54 Discovering Puzzle Boxes

08:46 What Puzzle Boxes Are

10:37 Sondheim On Puzzle Boxes

12:47 Voice Memories And Boxes

16:59 Japanese Artisan And Last Box

19:40 Opening The Box Onstage

21:53 What Was Inside The Box

23:25 Treasure Hunts And Movie Trivia

26:04 Thin Man Roleplaying Games

26:44 Movie Roleplay Mystery

28:34 Home Treasure Hunt

30:30 Sondheim Grammar Patrol

32:16 Puzzle Boxes Meaning

33:49 Kagen Sound Spotlight

36:04 Boxes On The Piano

38:04 Auction Hidden Note

39:42 Objects And Legacy

42:22 Calvin And Hobbes

47:31 Life As A Puzzle

Special Links:

David Staller

Gingold Theatrical Group

Kagen Sound

Andrew Parr

Colm Molloy

Ann Morrison

Mateo Chavez Lewis

Thanks to everyone who contributed behind the scenes to this episode: the Musical Stingers composed by Mateo Chavez Lewis, our line producer Dennis Caouki, and the theme song to our podcast with lyrics and music by Colm Molloy and sung by the one only Anne Morrison, currently on the road starring in Kimberly Akimbo.

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Join Barry Joseph and guests David Spira (Room Escape Artist) and Rachel Allen Duncan (Watson Adventures) to explore why Stephen Sondheim designed treasure hunts for decades, focusing on two with related names: the 1973 A Little Night Music Treasure Hunt at the Shubert Theatre and the 2011 A Little Jurassic Treasure Hunt at the American Museum of Natural History. Performers George Lee Andrews and Marti Morris recall the Shubert cast-party hunt co-devised with Anthony Perkins, where puzzle-photo team formation led to lyric-based clues hidden around the theater. Event producer Brigid Walsh describes producing the 2011 fundraiser hunt hosted by Sarah Jessica Parker and Matthew Broderick for Friends In Deed, including wax-sealed packets, team coordinators, dinosaur-hall clue cards, a meta-puzzle, and a final reveal involving a freight elevator, toy dinosaurs, and a hidden prize.

Make sure to get the book everywhere books are found, ⁠⁠or click here⁠⁠.

00:00 Sondheim Human Touch

01:43 Meet The Guests

03:24 Two Little Hunts

04:55 Show And Memories

06:43 Cast Interview Begins

11:19 Shubert Hunt Story

15:49 Ice Cream Interlude

17:12 Design Takeaways

24:35 Clue Sheet Breakdown

30:43 Weddings And Hunts

32:48 Wedding Puzzle Talk

33:47 Sondheim Museum Hunt Setup

35:47 Designing the Venue

39:20 Watching Players Lose It

41:55 Why Museums Work

43:46 Dino Hall Game Ideas

46:03 Inside the Hunt Packet

50:49 Rules and Meta Puzzle

55:55 Clues and Cheating

58:44 Spoilers Final Solve

01:01:37 Prizes and Reflections

01:04:15 Sondheim Takeaways

01:06:31 Plugs and Signoff

Special Links:

Room Escape Artist

Reality Escape Pod

Watson Adventures

AMNH Dinosaurs

Colm Molloy

Ann Morrison

Mateo Chavez Lewis

Thanks to everyone who contributed behind the scenes to this episode: the Musical Stingers composed by Mateo Chavez Lewis, our line producer Dennis Caouki, and the theme song to our podcast with lyrics and music by Colm Molloy and sung by the one only Anne Morrison, currently on the road starring in Kimberly Akimbo.

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A conversation about Matching Minds from the Dr. Broadway podcast with Dr. Tracey Brent-Chessum and Dr. Kristin Stultz Pressley, focusing on researching Sondheim’s lifelong puzzle-and-game design—from cryptic crosswords and treasure hunts to Atari sessions with John Weidman, escape rooms, puzzle boxes, and antique board-game collecting—and on Joseph’s methods, interviews, archival work, publishing journey with Applause/Bloomsbury, and ongoing efforts to place materials in institutions like NYPL, the Library of Congress, and the Strong Museum.

Make sure to get the book everywhere books are found, ⁠⁠or click here⁠⁠.

00:00 Podcast Welcome 

03:01 Introducing Dr Broadway

06:14 Barry’s Sondheim Journey

07:25 Games For Change Background

09:35 Atari And Game Mechanics

11:36 Sondheim Designed Games

13:18 Walls Of Antique Boards

15:03 Research Methods Archives

16:18 Pandemic Timeline Interviews

16:43 Tracking Memories Ephemera

17:04 Unlocking Interviews

18:06 Honoring Emotional Memories

18:53 Documenting And Archiving

20:49 Publishing Puzzle Theater Hybrid

23:18 New York Times Breakthrough

25:27 Research Rigor And Impact

26:52 Biggest Sondheim Revelation

28:12 Questions For Sondheim

31:21 Ongoing Projects And Farewell

Special Links:

Dr. Broadway Podcast

Colm Molloy

Ann Morrison

Mateo Chavez Lewis

Thanks to everyone who contributed behind the scenes to this episode: the Musical Stingers composed by Mateo Chavez Lewis, our line producer Dennis Caouki, and the theme song to our podcast with lyrics and music by Colm Molloy and sung by the one only Anne Morrison, currently on the road starring in Kimberly Akimbo.

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Dan Okrent visits Matching Minds for his FIRST interview (woot! an exclusive) about his highly anticipated biography “Sondheim: Art Isn’t Easy” (pub. March 17). Okrent explains the project evolved from a short biographical essay into a thematic, research-heavy contemporary biography, drawing on extensive archives and interviews (including 38 people, many close collaborators), with early praise from John Weidman and James Lapine. They discuss why a new Sondheim biography is needed since Meryle Secrest’s work, why James Lapine described it as “The best that has been written about Steve,” the value of Secrest’s Yale interview tapes, and new Library of Congress material clarifying Sondheim’s account of his mother’s letter (“guilt” vs “regret”). Okrent connects Sondheim’s alcoholism, inhibition, revenge themes (notably in “Sweeney Todd”), and life arc from alienation to connection. Finally, Okrent and Barry reflect on their unusual, and quite remarkable, multiyear relationship with each other and with Michael Mitnick that supported both Art Isn’t Easy AND Matching Minds with Sondheim. 

Make sure to get the book everywhere books are found, ⁠⁠or click here⁠⁠.

00:00 Art From Demons

00:55 Meet Dan Okrent

02:00 The Name Game

03:35 From Essay To Biography

07:39 Why Another Sondheim Book

09:26 Alcohol And Inhibition

12:23 Secrest Tapes At Yale

16:12 Sweeney Todd And Revenge

19:30 The Mother Letter Revisited

25:36 Password And Lee Remick

29:08 Writing For Insiders

29:40 Finding Your Reader

30:15 Writing for Insiders

31:43 The Missing Five Years

33:52 Procrastination or Passion

34:56 Alienation to Connection

36:13 Musicals That Connect

39:20 How Their Books Shaped Each Other

40:17 Archive Treasure Hunts

42:33 What Writing Revealed

43:53 A Collaborative Email Trio

49:53 The Creative New York Blob

51:20 Hopes and Farewell

53:23 Final Thanks and Signoff

Special Links:

Dan Okrent

Colm Molloy

Ann Morrison

Mateo Chavez Lewis

David Armstron’s Broadway Nation

Thanks to everyone who contributed behind the scenes to this episode: the Musical Stingers composed by Mateo Chavez Lewis, our line producer Dennis Caouki, and the theme song to our podcast with lyrics and music by Colm Molloy and sung by the one only Anne Morrison, currently on the road starring in Kimberly Akimbo.

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In this excerpt from David Armstrong’s Broadway Nation podcast, recorded at a studio overlooking the theater district, Barry and David compare their distinct, Broadway-themed, research-driven books, shared educator backgrounds, and surprising overlaps in their Sondheim publishing journeys. 

Make sure to get the book everywhere books are found,⁠ ⁠⁠or click here⁠⁠⁠.

00:00 Welcome and Setup

05:09 Hammerstein and Play

06:26 Carousel Treasure Hunt

07:10 Books in Conversation

09:12 Cover Photo and Publisher

10:49 Teaching and Podcast Paths

13:39 Hidden Puzzles Revealed

15:07 Puzzle vs Game Explained

17:20 Sondheim Video Games

18:46 Sondheim Plays Myst

19:21 Distraction Or Fuel

20:58 Cryptic Crossword Legacy

21:37 West Side Thursday Ritual

23:03 Treasure Hunt Vs Scavenger

25:06 1968 Hunt Cast

26:37 Lyrics As Puzzles

28:00 Cinerama Anagram Mind

30:54 Murder Game Origins

32:30 Finishing The Hat Link

34:06 Appropriately Obsessive

35:02 Closing Thanks And Tags

Special Links:

⁠Colm Molloy⁠

⁠Ann Morrison⁠

⁠Mateo Chavez Lewis⁠

David Armstron’s ⁠Broadway Nation⁠

Thanks to everyone who contributed behind the scenes to this episode: the Musical Stingers composed by Mateo Chavez Lewis, our line producer Dennis Caouki, and the theme song to our podcast with lyrics and music by Colm Molloy and sung by the one only Anne Morrison, currently on the road starring in Kimberly Akimbo. And, of course, David Armstrong.

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Come with Matching Minds to BroadwayCon in New York City during a frigid snowstorm! This episode features special guests and Broadway stars Etai Benson, George Lee Andrews, and Marty Morris, sharing their connections with Sondheim's puzzles and games. Etai recounts receiving a custom, personalized jigsaw puzzle from Sondheim for his role in Company. George and Marty take us back 53 years to share memories of the Sondheim/Perkin’s Shubert Theater treasure hunt for the cast of A Little Night Music. The audience participates in live trivia rounds (play along from home) and a reenactment of Sondheim's famous Murder Game. And suffer through our attempt at a podcast theme-song sign-a-long…

Make sure to get the book everywhere books are found, ⁠⁠or click here⁠⁠.

00:00 Introduction to Matching Minds with Sondheim

00:05 Experiencing BroadwayCon in New York City

00:28 Diverse Activities at BroadwayCon

01:00 Sondheim's Puzzles and Games

01:28 Special Guests: Broadway Performers

02:41 Sondheim's Multifaceted Career

03:03 Sondheim's Influence and Legacy

04:16 Interactive Trivia and Games

05:41 Exploring Sondheim's Puzzles

09:47 Special Guests: George Lee Andrews and Marty Morris

17:26 A Visit to Steve Sondheim's House

18:05 Round Three: Word Puzzles

19:25 Round Four: Mechanical Puzzles

19:57 Special Guests: Etai Benson

25:46 Round Five: Parlor Games

26:34 The Murder Game

30:44 Conclusion: Matching Minds with Sondheim

Special Links:

Colm Molloy

Ann Morrison

Mateo Chavez Lewis

Etai Benson

George Lee Andrews

Marti Morris

BroadwayCon

Thanks to everyone who contributed behind the scenes to this episode: the Musical Stingers composed by Mateo Chavez Lewis, our line producer Dennis Caouki, and the theme song to our podcast with lyrics and music by Colm Molloy and sung by the one only Anne Morrison, currently on the road starring in Kimberly Akimbo.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices