Media Monitor Podcast by Marco Hugo-Barsotti

Venerdì 2 giugno abbiamo avuto l'opportunità di intervistare Francesco Simoncelli su argomenti quali l’inarrestabile debito pubblico americano, le criptomonete, l’euro digitale, il controllo sociale e le aspettative per l’inflazione in Italia. La conversazione è durata quasi 60 minuti, impossibile da riassumere nell’articolo pubblicato su Atlantico. Pubblichiamo qui pertanto l’intero podcast.

Articolo pubblicato su Atlanticoquotidiano in due parti:

Occhio al senso di onnipotenza di chi pensa che possiamo dominare il clima

CO2 e scorie radioattive: tutto quello che non vi hanno detto sulle rinnovabili

Our recent article about Podcasting 2.0 generated a lot of interest, so we decided to reach out for Adam Curry himself and ask for an interview to go deeper in the subject. He was kind enough to accept, so here is a brief transcript of our discussion, available in its entirety in podcast format.

The Interview

(Newslinet) - We want to talk about the future of podcasting, but first: everyone remembers you from the MTV times, and of course as the original pod father, you’re a real innovator and you started before with Veronica, and also Music Box on the “sleeping bird” called Eutelsat I F1 . So can you tell tell us something about that particular period of your life?

(Adam Curry) - Well, it was very exciting, this was when I was in the Netherlands, we were making a television program for the Dutch audiences in the Netherlands, that has always been a country with a lot of cable. So, you know, it was easy to add channels that almost everybody could see. But what happened is there was a consortium from the the European broadcast union, I believe (Eutelsat. Editor’s note), we also do the Eurovision Song Contest, and one of my favorite television shows of all time. And they created something called Europa television. And so they were taking different types of content from all the public broadcasters around the European broadcast union. And we were chosen for music:.we were doing all of the music. This was Music Box. So all of a sudden, from just doing the Netherlands we were on the satellite, and it was everywhere.

Building a community

There I started to understand how you can build up a community. Globally, people don't even have to barely speak the same language. As long as there's some common elements. And I was always impressed at how people always want to give information back and how they want to tell you about their experience, then how it progresses if you share that, again, by reading a simple letter. And I really found a lot of power in that. So that period for me, that was a big period of learning, and starting to understand the mechanisms that are used for building audience 2.0.

No Nielsen in 2.0

Because it's no longer a question of who has the most people according to Nielsen ratings or something like that. It's about whose network is more valuable to a community: a network where everybody benefits.

Adam in the podverse

(NL)—I'd like to skip everything about the original idea of postcasting, giving you've told the story so many times, and for that I link to the local maximum podcast interview by Max Sklar , which is quite nice. But I'd like you to talk briefly about the podcasts you're producing today.

(AC) - There are actually four podcasts I produce. There's one which I'm very proud of. It's called Moe Factz with Adam Curry. This is a podcast that I do with another American who's married and has kids. His name is Moe, my name is Adam. The only difference between us is he's black or white. We both work, we both have kids, you know, we both love, liberty and freedom. But he has a very different cultural background than I do. And what we've discovered throughout all these episodes is that mainly the media and politics are always trying to divide America, trying to divide people based upon race. And this has become a fantastic product,

Only on the Podcast Index

And then there is Curry and the keeper, which is a recent podcast, which I started with my wife, Tina. It's a podcast available on the podcasts index only. No Apple Podcast, no Spotify. And it is founded by streaming for streaming donations, I don't know exactly how many people listen to that but I just know, it's more than we ever expected.

Podcasting 2.0

Then there is Podcasting 2.0 A podcast really just intended for the developers. There may be 50,000 people listening to that podcast. Finallt No Agenda, a podcast with John C. Dvorak, a podcast paid by donations. Here we don't even consider our audience to be listeners, we call them producers because they are helping produce the show. It's just like Hollywood, when you see an executive producer, that person brought in some money.

Benefits of 2.0

(NL) - Can you tell us why we should transition to podcasting 2.0, what are the benefits for creators and for listeners, both sides?(AC) - Well, so I'll go back to the reasons we started podcasting 2.0. The main reason is that Apple had kind of become the default onramp, the gateway to be a podcaster. Uuntil you put your podcast into Apple iTunes, you didn't really exist, because all of the smaller podcast apps were all using Apple's database, their index to get the information.

Deplatforming

So when Apple decided, these five podcasts, we don't like them, we're taking them off our system. And they even cut their funding off, off paylal etc. So I immediately called my friend Dave Jones and said, Hey, Dave, why don't we just make our own index and do it properly. And we won't deplatform anybody and won't take people off. And we'll make it open to all developers can access this and start building apps. And typical Dave went, Okay. And what happened was fantastic.Also, Apple was using just a very strict set of RSS and never really innovated. And I wanted a mony system in there for creators to get paid. So at this time, the Lightning Network for Bitcoin had just started becoming a little more mainstream, I figured out that this could really work. And we implemented that. And immediately, you know, people started using both the value for value streaming payments and booster grams, which has all been developed within this project, which is very much like YouTube Super Chat, where you can send a little message with with some cash, and it shows up.

This is not Silicon Valley - This Podcasting 2.0

Then in 2.0 we have transcripts, we have chapters, we have all kinds of fantastic extra tags so that even music will start working in a different way. And people remembered Oh, yeah, this is what podcasting kind of was, is it's not Silicon Valley, it's not sitting around waiting for 10 years for Apple to implement one thing, like the seasons, or whatever. So it just needed a couple of dudes to come along and kickstart it and say, Hey, remember how we used to build things? And we didn't need Silicon Valley? And then people went, Oh, yeah, we remember. So now we have the hosting companies, we have 58 apps and services now using podcasting 2.0 and the good news is it everything works with podcasting 1.0. And you can transition very easily.

Satoshi

With Podcasting 2.0 we allow people to determine how much they want to send. It's not determined by Silicon Valley that says, “Oh, you have to pay 99 cents to listen”. I mean, that's, that's crazy. What if I want to pay $50? So in the 2.0 clients you already have your wallet, you've got your Bitcoin in there, whenever you're ready, you just hit it and it just sends off and and it really reduces that that distance between deciding you want to donate and actually doing it.

Transition to 2.0

(NL) - What are the two or three most important things to do to transition to 2.0?(AC) - If you just want to see what it feels like and what it looks like, you can take your existing podcast feed, and you can go to sovereignfeeds.com/. , It's a real editing tool, a tool to create a 2.0 Feed. That's just if you want to try it out or if you have your own hosting solution.

Buzzsprout

The ones that are out front are Buzzsprout rss.com. We have quite a lot of Italian people who are in the 2.0 sphere there. But all of them are going to eventually have all the features in there. These things just take time, as usual. But that it's literally that simple.

Listener App

For the listener there's 15 new apps, some of the existing apps are enabled - except for Apple and Spotify, of course - they are adding these features like Pocket Cast, podcast addict, Podverse, I can go on and on and on. They're all adding these features over. So that’s going to happen automatically but if you want to jump in and get the full experience, then one of those new apps is definitely the way to go.

Venture Capital anyone?

(NL) - You're choosing this distributed way to approach fund the development of podcasting 2.0, as opposed to amore traditional way… i mean, you’re the Podfather you can go - for example - to A16Z, to Andreessen Horoviz and ask for some big money. But you choose not to.(AC) - Thank you for noticing that. You know, Dave and I are old, we've been around, we know what happens, I've taken money from Silicon Valley, I've started several companies and have taken a company public. There's always a bill to pay.And once you get outside money, that means someone has control, and we don't want to take it from Apple and then become Apple, we want to be the place that you can trust, that developers can trust and podcasters can trust.

1%

The only way we get money is we ask, whenever someone sends money through the value for value system, to the podcast, that 1% of that goes to podcastindex. This actually this pays for our servers. It comes via crypto. Then if there's any money left after we pay their bill, we leave it on the server, and maybe in five years, or 10 years, with Bitcoins at a million dollars, Adam and Dave will have some money. Or maybe that will never happen.

Freedom of speech

Dave and I, our job is to make sure that people can always speak freely, and podcast freely. That is our core mission. We don't want anyone, no politician, no lawmaker. Now there are obvious limitations to freedom of speech, ther are legal things you cannot do. But it's not a lot. You should be able to say anything, and not have some Silicon Valley company determined that.

Queen Ursula (Von der Leyen)

(NL) - In Europe, there was this satellite TV channel from Russia called RT News. A lot of propaganda, but also a lot of unorthodox views to our society. And of course we could understand when it was propaganda. But then it all went black, no signal, deplatformed from Eutelsat because the president of European Union said “no more”. The feed was cut and…(AC) - Yes, Queen Ursula! The queen said, you can't watch this anymore. And what she's saying is, you're stupid, what she's saying you're too stupid to understand what's propaganda. Now what she really means is you need our propaganda. Yeah, that's what she wants, and I think that people are seeing through that now.

De-Swift Russia: an european decision

Queen Ursula, also de platformed. Russia from Swift. That wasn't America. That was the European Union and the European banks who made that call. There wasn't Joe Biden, it was the European Union. So yeah, but that's the point. People aren't stupid. They can learn and thebn maybe some people are, so what? They are not the boss of our brains and of our thinking. That's not okay. I don't want to live in that world.

(NL) - Care to switch argument for the last 10 minutes?(AC) - Ok…

Måneskin

(NL) - I've heard Tina stating that the best part of Eurovision contest 2021 was the Italian song. That means Måneskin. But you did not express yourself.(AC) - Oh, no, no, I love them you know ! I have I have a lot of affinity with Italy - my sister married an Italian. So of course, when Italy's winning, I'm going to root for Italy too, you know, and then this one I actually liked it. I thought that I liked what they did.

Ukraine to win the Soccer World Cup

Although of course, you know, I predicted it on my show, I said “Don't worry, Ukraine is gonna win, they're gonna win the Eurocontest. They're gonna win the World Cup soccer”. These are all corrupt things. And, you know, they changed the votes for this year, they literally changed the votes of Romania and Bulgaria. So the whole thing is corrupt. But If I think about the music, that music from Europe, a lot of it was pretty good. And, Italy (Torino, Editor’s note) did a beautiful job, of course, of hosting the event. It was great production. I'm still old fashioned that way. I love these big European shows, you know, where all the different countries are doing something together, competing a little bit. That's always always felt very good to me. I've always liked that.

70-80

(NL) - We've have a sister publication, 70-80.it, which is a of website with the stories about the 70s and 80s but also a radio station on DAB which is the european….(AC) - I know what DAB is!

Hill Country, Texas

(NL) - Ah, good I thought you only knew about HD-Radio. Good. So we’re on DAB and on streaming of course. And also on digital television, DTT. And all of this is quite popular and not only with people born in the ‘60s. How about the US, do people like that music, that period?(AC) - That's a good question. Now, I used to live I lived in all Austin, Texas for 12 years, a very thriving young city. So, you know, there's, that would, that would not be the type of music you would encounter in Austin. But then we moved about 100 kilometers to the west. And we're now in Hill Country, Texas, where there's wineries and it's very green and it's a lot less people. And there's a radio station here, 94.3 FM, a rock station that has a traditional morning show is called the rock of Texas. And they play everything from the 70s Bowie to Led Zeppelin to, you know, some good 80s Ozzy

Local Radio

In fact, I love radio, I love local radio, I think local radio is, that's what radio is still really good at. So there's people who are putting the songs into the specific order, you know.

I am a DJ I am what I play

You know, as David Bowie said in his song, I'm a DJ, I am what I play. So you can really feel that. The moment, today is the day for this particular song. It's not something the computer can't know, that this is really the right song for today. A computer cannot know that, you have scheduling and playlist. And you can wake me up any day and ask me to do a morning show, as long as there's music involved. And I did it there… once I reached out to the morning show, and said ”Guys can I come on the show? Do the show?” And they were like, Are you kidding me?” And we went on for hours, we played music for hours. (M.H.B. for NL Newslinet)

Tariq Krim: In Europe, we no longer have any technology leaders, because we favored big companies such as telcos and did not believe in small startups. And we do not have a real software culture: because, yes, the software is culture. A larger and larger part of our data is stored and operated from companies abroad, and that's a massive risk. After the European Court of Justice ruled in favor of Max Schrems we are left with no regulations. We need European quotas for software, exactly how we in France have them for music over FM radio. Companies should stop worrying about page views and likes, abandon third-party platforms, and re-own their relationship with customers.

Media Monitor Podcast for May 16, 2022

This week we're moving away from our usual Italian-centric focus to talk with Tariq Krim about European data independency, why all big platforms (such as YouTube, Instagram, etc) are US based, how European media organizations should abandon third-party platforms and get the customers relation back into their hands. The entire conversation is available in podcast form here

Tariq Krim

Tariq is a writer, tech entrepreneur, and inventor based in Paris. in his short bio on the web, he states that, after helping create Web 2.0, is now working to make the internet a nicer place to live. He was the creator of Netvibes and the founder of Jolicloud. In 2008 he was the first French national named by the MIT Technology Review as one of the top 35 innovators in the world under the age of 35. He is Chevalier de l’Ordre des Arts et des Lettres (Knight of the French Order of Arts and Letters).

The Interview

(Newslinet) - First of all two words on who you are and your experience in France and in the Valley.

(Tariq Krim) - I'm a French entrepreneur, based in Paris, but I've also lived in San Francisco during the 90s. Internet era. So I have both cultures. I've been involved in computers since the really early days of the web. Actually, before even the web existed with phones and modems.

Then I've been involved in what we used to call the web 2.0, the reinvention of the web. You know, for decades the Internet existed, but basically, nothing really happened. And then here comes a player called Mozilla that (re)invents the browser allowing a lot of companies like mine (Netvibes at the time) to do new things.

Then of course YouTube and Facebook and a bunch of others started, making the web more interactive.

At the moment, I'm writing about the history of the internet: let's say that I'm taking the time to pose and look back and look at how and how we got where we are today.

Musk and Twitter

(NL) - It seems that in 2022 everybody focuses on the dangers of a Musk-owned Twitter, and no one worrying anymore about Facebook and the question of algos amplifying divisive content. What is your view?(TK) - The question of social media has always been the same, it's that we allowed machines, and we allowed computers to be in our personal life, in our intimacy.

We allow them to access photos or messages or text, everything we own: our music playlist, our video playlist. And based on that, a lot of algorithms have been used by companies like Facebook, YouTube or Apple, etc, to try to figure out how they can simplify our lives, and how they could better learn who we are to serve as better options, but also, better-targeted ads.

And a problem is, I believe, that assumption that they should live within the intimate space of a user is a very dangerous assumption because by getting to the intimate space, you get to change people's beliefs. You change people's positions; you change how people react to things.

Angriness

Suddenly, out of the blue, people start being really angry at things that they don't even care about, don't even understand, just because of the way this news and information came into their intimate space. And the other thing is because social media trying to regroup people with the same belief, then this amplifies angriness, this amplifies the fact that people are just talking to angry people.

Maybe this kind of approach is great for businesses because you can easily sell to someone angry, someone you can easily manipulate. But at this point, this is having very big effects on our democracy, on public debate, on health policy.

No Vax

A lot of people who needed basic health aid, and who needed vaccines were the most, loudest advocate for not using them. Some of them even died. This is the tragedy of where we are today, we have all the technology we need, and people do not believe in science anymore

Europe and the Tech giants

(NL) - Let's talk about the tech giants. France has some companies competing with them - like Daily Motion, Qwant, etc. Yet not one has become dominant, as another European company, Spotify, did. Why is that?(TK) - So this is a very, very, very interesting question about why and how we in Europe didn't get to have leaders in many spaces of technology. We used to have technology leaders: the telcos, the telecom operators. Telcos were big companies with very strong rules and businesses.

A giant in every country

With telcos, what you do is you split the world into different places, and then in each just a few operators exist. With the deregulation of telecommunication, a few more operators came in, like, you know, like, Vodafone Orange, Omnitel. So few large companies have really started controlling tech in Europe.

A new kind of competition

But when the internet came in, it was a different competition. First of all, the amount of money you needed to play with was extremely important. But also, I think a lot of people in Europe didn't understand and still do not understand that at this point, the value shifted from infrastructure, the telecommunication network, and the ability to connect with the customer.

Shifting value

With the internet, software became the most valuable asset. Companies like Google, Facebook, and Amazon, they're basically software companies, sometimes they don't even own the data center. And they operate on the assumption that with good software, you can make way more money on the only end customer.

Lack of end-user software culture in Europe

That culture of building consumer software didn't really exist in Europe. And the reason it didn't exist is that a lot of companies - like mine at the time, Netvibes - were small companies, and nobody would ever help us to grow to become a bigger company.

In Europe, we thought growth could come from TELCOs

Nobody believed that small companies would actually exist in the long term, so what did they do instead of allowing smaller companies to thrive? What happened in Europe is we thought that Telcom operators could actually build services in place of the smaller companies.

And this was a disaster because, at the end of the day, a lot of the companies that had great products did not get traction. For one, I would leave for the US or basically got acquired and basically die. 

Sovereign Cloud

(NL) - President Macron is trying to push for France (and Europe) to have a sovereign cloud. First of all, is hesucceeding, is anything moving?

(TK) - This is an interesting thing because this idea of digital sovereignty is a concept that's been pushed for a while. And it is a concept that I believe is slightly changing now with what happened with the war in Ukraine. So basically, the idea is that, as a country, you should own your data, you should own your critical infrastructure. And you should be making sure that your citizens are not controlled, either by third parties or manipulated by social networks. You should have this kind of sovereignty, making sure that no third-party operator is messing up with either your economy or your people, and you should make sure that you can protect the data, the most important data of the country.

No partnership with US tech giants

Because of the big tech domination, a lot of companies, and a lot of governments are now trying to do partnerships with external companies and try to explain to us how that would be more efficient. I believe it's a mistake. I've been trying to push against this for 10 years. But at the moment, what we see with the Macron government and the previous government is that there's a larger and larger part of what should be operated by us that is now operated by foreign operators.

A massive risk

And that has a massive risk. And one of them is the risk of resiliency. When you think about how we were very, very exposed to outside technology. We've seen what happened, how fast it was to disconnect Afghanistan when the Taliban took over, with just the switch button. And basically, they are now locked out. The same thing is happening right now in Russia. So, what will happen one day, if we are not agreeing with this or that? How do we make sure that we can still get control over here? And this is a very deep question, but a lot of governments at the moment have chosen not to respond.

An "Azure" Europe?

(NL) - Do you think that Microsoft stating "European data is hosted on Azure servers on European soil" is a good answer?

(TK) - Right, that's one of the things that most of the big tech says: Well, you know, if you host the data with us, within Europe, it's like if you were hosting the data with a European company.

Not true

And of course, it's not true, because any US company is subject to the cloud act, FISA, and many different directives that force them to allow the government, US government at different levels (it could be military, it could be intelligence, but it can also be a simple judge), to access the data that are stored anywhere in the world. Outside the US, that is. This is a big issue.

An issue between Europe and USA

It's a big issue between Europe and the US. It's an issue that has created some friction because we had an agreement between the US and Europe for the free flow of data. And that agreement was broken apart by an Austrian activist called Max Schrems, and the European Court of Justice said he was right. So right now, we do not have any regulations.

Illegal?

And a lot of people now believe that if you're putting your data in big tech companies outside of the EU, this is something illegal. And so far, there's no real answer to that.  

Gaia-x

(NL) - Gaia-X. Mr. Filloux view is that it is just a typical European bureaucratic monster, not agile enough to gain traction. What's your point of view?

(TK) - There have been several approaches to creating an organization to build a sovereign cloud initiative. The most well-known the German-French (in fact mostly German) one is called Gaia X.

A monster

But actually, it has become this monster of a dozen of companies, including Chinese companies, and American companies, trying to work on an official standard. There are now about 100 European companies, small and mid-sized companies in the project I believe a lot in what they're doing, trying to reconnect everyone together and create an ecosystem that works well together. 

Small companies in GAIA-X

An interesting situation because again I believe that the future of Europe comes from smaller companies, not from the big companies, the big companies have lost this. They've lost their way of creating new ideas and just basically became glorified resellers of American or Chinese-based solutions.

Lack of talents

And the reason is that we need engineers, we need more engineers to create a great product. And I believe personally that only smaller companies and startups can do this. The question is, when we have this, how about the next step? How do we make sure that Europe is buying the product that European companies are producing?

European quotas

This is a massive challenge, I'm personally in favor of using quotas in buying. So, a certain amount of buying should be European.

Software is culture...

In the same way, we had a quota rule for culture: I believe software is culture, I believe it's software made in Europe is very different from software made in the US. The mindset is different and the approach to productivity vs. life is different.

...like music

And I think we should protect that. In the same way we protect the music in France, and that saved music and allowed bands like Daft Punk to thrive globally. This is something that very few of us are trying to push. And there are a lot of people who say this is shouldn't be a good idea. But I, in the long term, believe that at the end of the day, technology is about culture more than anything else.

 Suggestions for media organizations

(NL) - Finally, your suggestions to media organizations (radio/TV/newspaper etc.) that want to make sure their operations do not depend on systems and services hosted abroad.

(TK) - Well, first of all, I truly believe that whatever a company is doing, it should operate independently of other media companies. Basically, if your operation is on YouTube, it means that you don't know who's watching them, you have to rely on Google and companies like that to know what's happening to your customers and how to create relationships.

Own the Relationship

And we forgot that the essence of the media business is to create a relationship between a brand, a group of programs, and the community and I truly believe that we should explore new ways of promoting contact. Podcasts, newsletters, things that give the direct approach, direct contact with the end-user. And this is something we tend to forget because we're all trying to read the usual numbers, how many people follow us on Facebook and Instagram etc..

What's good for Facebook is not good for our brands

But this is good for Facebook and Instagram and it's not good for you. Because at the end of the day, if you're putting everything you have on YouTube, Instagram, etc., your content becomes in competition with low-quality content from whatever creator is out there, whatever content competitor, and you have zero control.

Re-own the relationship and the platform

I think it's important to re-own the relationship between customers and the brand, while also owning the media platform. I think we'll see more and more companies trying to do that, start rebuilding their own platform and figuring out a way to operate in that space, how to create an organization that lives in our own sovereign cloud space. (M.H.B . for NL Newslinet).

Eugenio La Teana, RTL102.5 and WorldDAB :  All analogue and digital platforms are still needed today. Almost reached 10 million DAB + receivers in Italy. Often users do not realize they are listening to DAB and this is a good thing. DAB could overtake FM in Italy in 2025, but even then it would be foolish to abadaon analog. After switching off we will have to reconvert the 88-108 band, not abandoning it but thinking about reusing the FM for new digital services. The local broadcaster didn't seem interested in investing in DAB, but they haven't missed the train yet.

More of everything 

Newslinet had the opportunity to interview Eugenio la Teana, head of innovation at RTL 102.5 , member of the Steering Board of WorldDAB and Country Manager of Radioplayer . The conversation lasted over an hour, touching on important topics such as the reuse of the 88-108 MHz band after the switch off, the current state of DAB +in Italy and abroad, because Radioplayer is essential for the survival of Radio in a world. globalized, radio vision, HBBTV and more.

The perimeter

Considering the perimeter and depth of the topics touched upon, we decided to publish the interview as follows: the totality of the conversation in two successive podcasts, the first of which is published today . The main points of what has been discussed will also be published in two subsequent articles, starting with today's one. 

Eugenio La Teana

(Newslinet) -  What are your activities today? (Eugenio La Teana) - My main activity is innovation at RTL 102.5, but I also deal with other activities at an international level: I am Country Manager for Radioplayer Italia and I manage relations with some international associations including WorldDAB, where I sit in the steering board. Without forgetting that I deal with the network infrastructure of EuroDab Italia , one of the three national operators of DAB + digital radio.

Innovation

(NL) - Before moving on to DAB let's talk about Radiovision. You started 20 years ago, when there was only FMand SAT . Today you can attend DAB +, DTT, FM, Sat, Web, Mobile App, App for Smart TV, RadioPlayer, Apple TV. How have distribution costs increased? (ELT) -  I premise: any company that wants to remain relevant on the market cannot exempt itself from innovation. RTL 102.5 obviously continued and continues to invest, because the innovation process never ends, it is an infinite click. Innovating means looking at the market and people's behavior and we always try to anticipate what will happen.

Radiovision

As happened with Radiovision. At the time we told ourselves that radio produces content, and producing audio-only content was a limitation on the possibilities offered by technology. Furthermore, for us, the user must make no effort to find us, regardless of the device that he has available at any given moment. Thanks also to this we have become the main radio in Italy. 

Costs

Returning to the costs, there is certainly an important cost for all this: that of the band, it is true, has decreased over the years, but the number of people who connect has increased. In any case, this means that more people are connecting to our content.

All platforms needed today

(NL) - Are there any trends of the various platforms that you can share with us? (ELT) - To date I believe that all platforms are essential, no signal tells us that we can abandon any of them. Many people still use traditional broadcast channels, even analog. We must continue to offer the simplest possible access for the population unfamiliar with more advanced means.

Digital on the rise

Obviously, the digital offer is increasing thanks to the renewal of the car fleet: those who buy a new vehicle find themselves in possession of a DAB offer that in addition to having a quality ... of the best features of the FM also offers a superior choice in terms of of contents .. 

Digital compression

(NL) - You said "quality" and then you corrected yourself in "characteristics". The quality of DAB with current bitrates seems to us lower than that of FM… (ELT) - It depends on the bitrate you use. Inside the block we use a high one, so… but I express myself better. The FM radio certainly does not hear bad, even if in our opinion in terms of quality the common ear (so to speak) today does not perceive differences. But there are characteristics that define the listening quality that go beyond the "sound quality". 

Listening experience

DAB + guarantees a better listening experience than FM and digital also eliminates interference noise typical of analog. Moreover, it improves the effectiveness of coverage: with digital we have a network gain, two or more plants in the same coverage area instead of destroying each other reinforce each other. We therefore get a better listening in terms of robustness, eliminating interference and rustles.

Dab and Analog

Sometimes they tell us "I switched to DAB but I don't perceive the difference". And in fact the quality (of RTL 102.5 and Freccia: 96 kbps , ed) is better in digital, but it is not easy to perceive it unless suitable systems are used. I mean portable radios with a small speaker don't give the real perception of the difference.

DAB vs FM: the listeners

(NL) - You have at least two hats, the one from RTL 102.5 and the one from WorldDab . How important is listening to DAB today in Italy and for you in particular? (ELT) - Look, there is still no comparative audience survey on the various channels. It is something we are working on but I can give you an important number: we are approaching the 10 million receivers on the market and this is a figure that comes to us from the most registered receivers sold . We are also working to sensitize listeners to DAB, since with receivers in the car sometimes the user does not even know they are listening digitally. The curve is constantly growing, proportional to the sale of the new cars .

United Kingdom, leading role

If we talk about Europe, the rate is even higher, especially where the classic radio set still has an important presence at home, I am thinking of the UK or the Nordic countries. Which leads me to say that we have been far-sighted, since for years we have been able to replace the home radio set with the television where - as we said before - we have been present for two decades. With advantages - and back to your talk about quality - for all those who have a home theater system to watch movies: in their case they benefit from excellent quality sound even for the radio (indeed, radio vision) .

Switch off , no one has decided yet

Let me add some information outside our territory. Norway is the only country that has made an analog switch-off. England did not do it, where they started much earlier than us, but also in Switzerland where digital listening has gone beyond analog, the time horizon is still uncertain. But there is a fundamental element: that those who go digital do not go back. Obviously, it makes no sense to cut ties with analog where it still has consistency, but digital, once chosen, becomes the preferred form of listening. 

Overtaking in 2025

(NL) - Have you tried to do an extrapolation, a regression of some kind on the digital growth curve that allows you to see the intersection, the moment when the digital will overtake the analog FM in terms of listening? (ELT) - Well, what I could call break even could come in two or three years (2025 NDR) . I think the next listening surveys will be able to confirm this.

Switch off, madness

But I want to clarify! This does not mean that now is the time for a switch off, it would be madness. We would still deprive many people of the opportunity to listen.

The future of the 87.5 - 108.0 MHz band

(NL) - One of the points often debated also following the proposals of Roberto Sergio di Rai is the famous switch off. In your opinion, why is it always talked about, what or to whom do those few MHz between 88 and 108 serve? (ELT) - The FM frequencies will have to be converted anyway, it would be madness to leave them free! The next day we would find a subject who takes them and makes use of them.

FM reuse

In short, it is a resource that we must reconvert in the digital environment in favor of the subjects who have protected it and created value in recent years. As you well know, there are digitization models also for FM, not developed in our country (and not even elsewhere, apart from the United States), because DAB is more efficient and effective. But technologies run, so everything that wasn't there yesterday could be there tomorrow. Therefore the 88-108 band remains an important resource for the distribution of content on the move, an asset to be safeguarded.

New technologies

(NL) - So on FM… indeed on the 88-108 band we could propose the use of new technologies: we will return to them in the next interview. But now I want to ask you why in Europe we have not adopted HD Radio which guarantees continuity, compatibility and preserves the value of assets for broadcasters? (ELT) - Because from the point of view of the crowding of frequencies in Europe we would have had too many difficulties. Also from the point of view of performance, DAB was chosen after an in-depth analysis of efficiency, which also examined FM extra . All technologies that we have personally tested. DAB is better performing both in terms of technology and of the market.

The importance of a continental policy

Look, I have followed DAB from the beginning and I must say that there is no imposition: it is the whole industry that has moved in this direction. It is no longer possible to think from a national point of view, it is necessary to think at the European level. And we have been good, with constant experimentation, with the creation of a capillary network, we made a non-repayable investment but we also made sure that the industry followed us. A great and long job.

DAB and local broadcasting

(NL) - But the local stations criticize the big names for having monopolized DAB with all the transitional authorizations, leaving them today only the crumbs… (ELT) - Absolutely no one is out of the game. The opportunities were there for everyone right from the start. When we invested in digital, others could do it too: but to innovate you have to invest, you have to believe in it, it's not that everything comes from above.

The importance of looking ahead

We have believed in digital even when others did not believe in it and keep in mind that both the authorities and the ministry have vouched for the space also for local consortia. Which are now constantly being launched. There are spaces for local operators and ... (NL) - ... Yes, but from what I remember years ago there was a problem of lack of megahertz, of "blocks" ... (ELT) - There has always been an underlying problem : RAI used the frequencies allocated to the DAB for its internal use. We recall the story of the "interchanges" where we found the available resources among those employed.

Lack of commitment

But then, in any case, some of these resources became free and - as far as I know - there was not a great commitment on the part of the locals to go and use them. Of course, we need to get together, create a consortium. But then consider that the costs are not even that important: the systems need to be done, but you can spread the costs over 20… let's say, yes, 20 companies or 20 channels. And for the local area with three plants you arrive at a consistent coverage.

Moti consortia now active

Of course, it is also natural for large groups to invest first, indeed I would say that the public service should be the first to lead the way. But if you turn on a DAB radio today you find many active local consortia, I think the situation is evolving rapidly ... (continued) (MHB for NL)

Triolo (Statcast): The pandemic has acted as a springboard for digital radios, reducing the gap with old technologies.Aggregators? If you are not well positioned, you become a number, you disappear. Certainly the aggregator does not value the contents. I think every broadcaster is right to use their own app, giving value to their programming also through vertical radios and other initiatives.With our tool we have carried out an analysis that shows customer loyalty, minute by minute. We show how many leave the stream in a given moment, and the content that was playing.Radio and podcasts: there is no competition of the platforms. The podcast is a modernized version of things the radio did years ago (like radio plays): programming that today have no place in the linear radio.

Platform analysis

In this new episode of Newslinet media monitor we explore the new features of the Statcast platform with Francesco Triolo of Meway , discuss the world of online radio today and try to understand if the pandemic effect has really changed the way we listen to the radio, in the direction of various distribution platforms. The full interview, which also touches on topics not included in this article,  is available in  Podcast format. 

The interview

(Newslinet) - A flash on Statcast.(Francesco Triolo) - Statcast is responsible for collecting the statistics and connection data that arrive to the servers from the users of an online radio. You can register directly on our platform and start using it without even needing to contact us.

Beyond traditional statistics

(NL) - What information exactly can you get?(FT) - The service provides the publisher with a whole series of information that goes beyond the quantitative level. While traditional statistics only show sessions and connections, we can tell how many users have listened to a certain program, if they have disconnected and / or if they have reconnected… qualitative information.

Pandemic effect

(NL) - In the May 2021 interview you talked about an important growth in IP ratings thanks to the pandemic effect. Yesterday we saw a sharp slowdown - indeed retreat - of Netflix in terms of VOD. What about online radios ?(FT) - I think the pandemic has also acted as a springboard for digital radios, reducing the gap with old technologies. It certainly also made many publishers understand the importance of simulcasting and being available on every device.

(NL) - Looking at the numbers carefully, contrary to what almost everyone has said, it does not seem to us that the pandemic has substantially changed the growth rate of Netflix subscribers .(FT) -  Indeed, by analyzing some specific cases of our customers, I too see a certain constancy ...

Statcast and CATI platforms

(NL) - It seems that electronic surveys in Italy (where the CATI method is still based) are struggling to be accepted ...(FT) -  Look, the CATI method is a system that does not go well with our idea: in Statcast we go to analyze real connections by receiving constant feedback from servers. We have done research and development work to provide aggregate data - data from different channels - which allows us to give you the pulse of the real situation in real time.There is probably still some mistrust of this approach. But I'm sure the market will eventually prove us right.

Aggregators

(NL) - A few years ago there was nothing but aggregators, but today it seems that proprietary apps , such as RaiPlay Sound platforms , One Podcast etc. are the focus of broadcaster interest.(FT) -  We who have been analyzing the streaming market for many years have seen the birth and growth of aggregators. But in these, if you are not well positioned, you become a number, you disappear. Certainly the aggregator does not value the contents. I think every broadcaster is right to use their own app, giving value to their programming also through vertical radios and other initiatives.

In short, how many listen to me online?

(NL) - Is the user of the Statcast platform able to get information like " Right now I have 10 listeners from TuneIn, 400 from my app, 120 from the site ... "?(FT) - Statcast analyzes the user agent over the IP, so in general we can tell what the traffic sources are. We can know what is the origin of a connection, we can even provide the ranking of the aggregators. The publisher has many elements to verify what works and what doesn't.(NL) - Can you give us an idea of ​​the numbers?(FT) - Well, we have to respect the confidentiality of our customers.

Global audience

I can tell you that “in proportion” we have many more foreign users than Italians. Perhaps also due to the technological gap, there are still areas of Italy without broadband.

Radio and Podcast

(NL) - Andrea Borgnino of RAI sees podcasts and linear radio as a whole, which he calls “audio”. How do you see this synergy between radio and podcast platforms?(FT) - There is no competition. The podcast seems to me an updated version of things that the radio did years ago, think of radio plays, things that today have no place in the schedule.

Advertising

(NL) - In January you stated that with some beta testers you were studying the effectiveness of traditional advertising ( undifferentiated clusters ) compared to prerolls and midrolls and to what you called ...(FT) - Yes, we have carried out an analysis which shows customer retention minute by minute. We can know how many leave the flow in a given instant, in the face of a given content. The evolution of the concept is the new advertising module of statcast. A tool that allows you to enter the start and end times of the clusters and analyze the results.

Punctual reporting

I can tell my advertisers how many people actually listened to a particular cluster! But not only ...(NL) - To understand well, are you talking about dedicated clusters or the same advertising that goes on FM?(FT) - With the virtual splitters module we can vary the areal advertising.

Targeted campaigns

(NL) - Today a small shop cannot afford radio advertising as the broadcasting area - and related costs - is too large. Can you do better with this module?(FT) - It all starts with profiling. The connection is anonymous from our point of view, unlike servers such as Facebook's which have the complete listener profile. But in any case, the answer is yes.

Granular target

We too can provide as much granular targeting as desired, but - and pay attention to this - an integration with the radio app is required, which must take care of obtaining the geolocation clearance. Or at least have an internal user profile that includes useful data for the purpose of targeting, geographic and / or personal data . (MHB for NL)

NL Media Monitor , let's talk about RaiPlay Sound (and more)

In this episode of Newslinet media monitor we explore the new RaiPlay Sound platform with Andrea Borgnino and some issues relating to the role of the media in the conflict in Ukraine. In a second appointment, which we will publish shortly, we will talk about RAI Teche and Radio Techetè. The full interview, which also touches on topics not included in this article,  is available in  Podcast format.

Andrea Borgnino

A great radio lover, he has been working on it at RAI since 1997. He is the author of the Golem program on Radio 1 , then he was involved in the Radio Techetè channel .  For over ten years he has had a weekly space called Interferenze in the Radio 3 Mondo program and since July 2021 he has been editorial manager of RaiPlay Sound , the RAI platform dedicated to live listening , on demand and podcasts.

The interview

(Newslinet) - Tell us about RaiPlay Sound .(Andrea Borgnino) - RaiPlay Sound is the sister of RAI Play, the RAI video on demand platform. We are born instead for audio and have been active since mid-December 2021. We offer all 12 live radio channels plus dozens of on-demand programs and original podcasts produced by us. We distribute audio books and the audio of many television content, including fiction and films: all of which can be listened to quickly thanks to a simple and intuitive app.

RayPlay Sound inspired by BBC Sounds

(NL) - Was BBC Sounds , born in 2018, an inspiration for you?(AB) - Absolutely yes. We still lack the musical part as a matter of rights, but the idea is to offer something very similar: they are certainly a model to be inspired by. 

Users / listeners

(NL) - Are you satisfied with the spread of the application?(AB) - Yes. It is increasing, a little also due to the contingent linked to the war, but in any case in these first four months the numbers are going in the direction we expected.

DAB + and IP

(NL) - DAB or IP, which is the technology of the future?(AB) - Look, I'm a huge broadcast fan. I think that the fact of spreading on the air and allowing everyone to receive the contents is very important. Then whether it is done with analogue or digital technology does not matter. Broadcast also makes it possible to inform in times of calamity, when we know very well that IP networks may not work.

Inadequate 5G for millions of listeners

Broadcasting allows you to reach many people at the same time, something that IP still cannot do. I was lucky enough to work at EBU for two years and my colleagues continued - and continue - to remember that even with 5G we cannot even imagine serving all the millions of users who currently use the radio.

Perfect duopoly

Furthermore, I think that radio lives this duopoly very well: fresh live content, updated over the air and another, perhaps more worked, distributed via the network even on demand. For many years I still see this duality in the radio offer, indeed let's call it “audio” by now.

Podcasting

(NL) - Let's talk about podcasts. Your press release states that you aim to be the leader in the podcasting industry . But the platforms used by users today are Spotify and  Apple Podcast .(AB) - I'll give you a preview. We are about to land on Spotify with some of our content. Since we know that they are quality products, it is important to make them available - perhaps only partially - also through this channel. The other public broadcasters do too. I can't tell you the opposite. To date RaiPlay Sound was born as an offer of RAI content.

Online radio and censorship

(NL) - In these difficult days we cannot fail to talk about communication in times of war. Digital technologies can be filtered, once authoritarian states did but now it is also common practice in democratic Europe . Can VPNs be a solution?(AB) - Well, look, the VPN seems to me a solution for four geeks. I don't think the average user can use it as an alternative to medium and short waves, which knew no state lines.

A vehicle at risk

And anyway we remember that the VPN is a risky medium. There is always a way to know if someone is using one: maybe not what they are doing with it, but certainly the fact that they are using it is already an important element. A citizen who uses the VPN exposes himself more than one who does not use it.

Medium waves

In this conflict then I have seen a great revival of the Medium Waves. Let's think of Radio Ukraine which had turned off the AM network and turned it back on in a hurry, precisely to be present everywhere in front of the bombed FM stations.

AM Broadcast

Russian waves

Likewise, the Russians have activated a huge transmitter in Moldova on 999 KHz since 5 April. And - I must say - seeing the BBC rekindle some frequencies in shortwave to overcome censorship is something sobering . (MHB for NL)

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