By jD
Meeting Malkmus - a Pavement Podcast is an obsessive and exhaustive deep-dive into the songs of the seminal '90s indie rock band Pavement. Working in chronological order according to the date of re
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This week jD welcomes Ralph to the pod to discuss his Pavement origin story and to reveal song number 13!
Transcript:
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[0:00] Previously on the Pavement Top 50. This week, we're on the horn with AT&T. How are you feeling about song number 14, Rachel, from Portland? I love AT&T. The song is super fun. I really love the way in which, like, the verses go into this, the, you know, when he goes into the, like, whatever, whatever, and there's a kind of screaming thing in it. And it almost feels like the whole song could be complete. And then it starts again with the second verse, which I really love. It takes you on a really cool journey. And I also love, to me, there's so much meaning in it. And there's also so much that I don't understand and feels a little bit nonsensical to me. Hey, this is Westy from the Rock and Roll Band Pavement.
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[0:54] And you're listening to The Countdown. hey it's jd here back for another episode of our top 50 countdown for seminal indie rock band pavement week over week we're going to count down the 50 essential pavement tracks that you selected with your very own top 20 ballots i then tabulated the results using an abacus and two marshmallows shaped like mushrooms also they were actual mushrooms how will your favorite song fare air in the rankings? Well, you'll need to tune in to find out. So there's that. This week, I'm joined by pavement superfan Ralph from Lincolnshire. Dude, thanks for taking some time to do this with me. How the fuck are you? Oh, I'm good. It's great to be here. It's great to have you. It's a dream. Oh, you got to dream bigger, baby. You got to dream bigger. There's nothing bigger than meeting mammoths.
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[1:54] Well, let's get right into it. Let's hear about your pavement origin story. Okay. okay so uh well so so my dad is really into music he has like a record shop and everything and he grew up in the 90s so he loves it so i i grew up most of my life you know on like various tapes and stuff just hearing two pavement songs i heard stereo and range life a lot so they're like burnt into my brain i only really got uh you know explored further than those two in uh i think it was like october november 2022 so not very long ago okay yeah ever since then it's been you know a burning intensity of pavement wow a burning intensity yeah so what is your what is your go-to at this point like what record do you go to or how many times has that changed what order did you go through the records in talk to me baby so i mean i so i started out uh when i very first died i listened to um quarantine the past the best oh that's a that's a smart move just to discover them you know and uh so i think the first one that i really liked uh other than those two was um unseen power of the picket fence which is a weird choice because it was i don't know why they put on the best of i'm really glad they did.
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[3:20] Tough to get your, it was sort of tough to get your hands on. Yeah. Because Quarantine of the Past was released on vinyl. So, you know, sometimes they throw us a bone that way, right? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, they're good to us. But I would say, I think my first album that I really loved was Bright in the Corners. And then I just very slowly discovered all of them kind of one by one. All right, talk to, I'm a big Bright in the Corners fan. So talk to me about your experience with Bright in the Corners. Oh, it's just, I think it just flows so well. I think that's my favorite thing about it. Compared to all the other albums, it just flows beautifully song into song. And I really like that there's two Spiral songs, you know, Love Spiral there. And I think as well, just having the two openers and then collide together and then kind of flow into all these kind of more mellow tracks really works. I really like that, I think. What's your favorite track on that record? Okay, do you have one? Ooh, my favorite. I think I'm going to have to go stereo. Yeah, I'm going to say stereo, but I really like Starlings of the Slipstream. I guess stereo, because you've got all that indoctrination. Inculcation. Oh, that's a good one. Yes, yes. So, yeah.
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[4:43] Gosh where do we go next so you started creeping into the next records do you what was your next favorite what was the next one that you listened to that sort of just went what in the fuck am i listening to i don't know but i love it yeah i think uh i think probably wowie zowie i think yeah because yeah that makes sense just it's just amazing i think it really fits it's almost.
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[5:09] Cliche to say but it really fits the ethos of pavement doesn't it because they're all just scattered everywhere and it doesn't make any sense but it's just beautiful yeah there's some gorgeous songs on that record mother to a sister of thought yeah love it love it although single choice maybe not the best single choice for commercial purpose i suppose yeah i suppose well said good point my dad maintains that um kennel district should have been single really yeah interesting yeah i can't think of many scott songs that are yeah as a single one is that i mean i mean they have uh painted soldiers as a as a music video yeah it wasn't a single was it i don't think so it wasn't a single for them anyway it might have been a single from the brain candy record oh yeah yeah maybe which was the kids in the hall and that's why they made the video but i yeah i'm not i'm not sure yeah that would be great that's one of my favorite one of my favorite favorite songs when i saw spiral last live um i was like oh can you please pay play painted soldiers and he was like oh man we haven't rehearsed that in a long time and then they played it they pulled it out at the horseshoe tavern in toronto and it was fucking fantastic and uh.
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[6:28] And then they took it on the road with them. Like, I mean, in the 2022 tours. Did they? Which by virtue of the next question, I've got to ask you, have you ever seen them live? Did you go out on the 2022 tour at all? So, I saw them in, I think it was July of last year at a Blue Dot Festival. Oh, cool. Yeah, in Cheshire. So, that was great. That was so exciting. Yeah, I bet. Yeah, my first big festival. How big was the festival? How big a festival? Uh, it was, I don't know. I don't know how to judge it. It was, it was fairly big. It had, uh, I think Grace Jones was headlining the others, but Pavement were headlining. So there was nothing probably bigger than Pavement on that.
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[7:11] Uh, yeah, yeah, it was, it was pretty good. Probably like maybe three main stages, I think. Oh, wow. That's very cool. How long did Pavement play? Uh, they played maybe, maybe 50 minutes or something. Yeah, it was pretty good. I was happy with it the cool thing about blue dot is that it's uh right next to the jojo bank telescope so there's this gigantic like dish like kind of you know for i don't know um radio telescope yeah yeah right behind them and they projected onto it as they played that's really cool oh that's fucking badass yeah that's very cool and i suppose that's why it's called the blue dot festival too yeah yeah they discovered some some i don't know space object yeah i bet they had a really cool thing actually they had um like a listening party where they interview a pavement where they listened to wowie zowie all the way through and pavement talked about it they did like uh like a director's commentary yeah yeah on the whole of wowie zowie it was great and they like i saw people.
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[8:15] Filming it at the festival but i've never seen it released and i'd love to have it released oh me too i'm gonna have to scour youtube for that pressure pavement yeah i have that kind of power of course, what um what what sorts of things did you learn do you remember any nuggets oh what have you learned uh i feel that i can't i'm doing a disservice to payment here but But I think Scott Kamburg's mom used to teach someone or something, someone who was famous. I can't really remember. Oh, man. They were a bit down on, what's Scott's last track on Wauwizawi?
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[9:01] Path to Canyon? No. No, it was. Oh, my God. No, Western Homes. Western Homes. Yes. Yeah, they were saying that they'd never played Western Holmes apart from like once or something. And they were saying it was a shame because I feel like they should play that more. It's pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah, I like his contribution. Yeah, of course. I wouldn't be caving him without it. No, because, I mean, if you think of the early stuff, like, he was on, you know, like, he was doing a lot. Like, I don't know if it was 50-50, but it was, like, a lot more, you know? Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think, wasn't it for the first EP, he wrote, like, a lot of the instrumentation or something, and then Mountmas came and did some, like, lyrics on it and sang on it? But I think originally it was going to be a different project. Oh fuck you know i have to have known that because i've talked to scott five times so i'm sure we've talked about it but damn is my memory bad gee whiz well what do you think should we uh flip this sucker over and get to the track of the week number 13 oh i'm excited i think you should yeah all right well we'll do that right after this hey.
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[10:19] This is bob mustanovich from pavement Thanks for listening, and now on with a countdown.
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[14:19] That's right. Song number 13 on the countdown is Shady Lane, J vs. S. Ralph from Lincolnshire. What is your initial thought about this song? Well, it's an amazing song. It's an amazing song. I mean, I think if it wasn't going to, yeah, I think it might be, maybe I'm putting it third on my ranking of Brighton the Corners. And oh wow i would almost say you know brand the concert's my favorite pavement so it is super up there it's it's a brilliant it's a brilliant song i think the lyrics are the best thing for me really i think just uh obviously there's so many moments like uh when you're talking about god and you know and when he's talking about um uh you're the what's that that amazing lyric right at the start uh you're the uh you've been chosen as an extra to the.
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[15:18] Right an extra adaptation of the sequel to your life that is right yes and how he just gets all the syllables on in as one big long kind of statement so good yeah it is it is really cool i think i have i have a question though uh what is an emery board an emery board is like what you would use to file your nails oh it's almost like it's almost like a very fine sandpaper but it's on like a it's on like a tooth or a tongue depressor you know yeah that shape it's that shape and then it's like i say it's got grit on it to file your nails oh yeah see that so that changes the entire song for me now the entire song oh my god whole new ways his own nail nail oriented avenues of interpretation right right i think it is as well um one of three steven mountainous written songs to include uh references to oysters we have uh cold sun who has ever said the world is my oyster i feel like an info stuck in a cloister and uh do not.
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[16:29] Feed the oyster of course so i i see it as like one of a little trio of uh oyster based songs that is great i have to remember when i put this episode out to include that question in social media how many songs about oysters does sm have and see if i see how many people get it right whatever the answer is it's uh he doesn't have enough we need to pressure him to write more We need to write more. He's too busy searching for the pearls, baby. Oh, yeah. That's it. Yeah.
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[17:04] I think the thing about Bright in the Corners as well is that it has so many things that you could have used as singles, you know, so many standout just... Iconic songs so it's not even fair really it's not even fair on so many other brilliant tunes like day with ikea say you know or uh even um even finn i think finn would be a mental single oh yeah i just think um it's uh so it's kind of unfair i'm bright in the corners it's too good, it really is it really is and and going back to finn for a second and jesus fucking christ is that song good okay that's all i have to say about that um.
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[17:46] What's your take on the whole j versus s piece to the title do you have a take on that yeah i love this i love this and payment do this i think i think in other times as well they kind of add little bits on to songs and it's just great and i love how it's you know like a frankenstein's monster of a song with two separate songs because on the um on the music video i was watching it on youtube and probably when they originally did it they don't put j versus s on so it's like it's its own other thing you know it's like to be treated with equal respect um but i really like it i think it flows into the next song well right so your your interpretation is that it is that that tale that outro yeah yeah it's an outro but i think we should uh yeah we should respect it equally okay i can get behind that i can get behind that yeah because it's not even like it's parenthetical it's it's straight up j versus s yeah it's important enough to be in the title i mean that's right what do you who do you think j is and who do you think s is oh uh who do we think Oh, who do we think Jay, um, uh, Julius Caesar versus, um, uh, uh.
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[19:13] Superman. Yeah.
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[19:17] It's like a fight. It's a fight that they envisioned. Oh, man. Just don't have that fight in the middle of the month. Yeah, you gotta leave it till the end. They waited to listen to the song before. That's right.
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[19:32] So, is this song, and I know the context is tough. We record these much earlier on. And you haven't heard the vast majority of the list at this point. But to your experience, this song at number 13, is it rated? Is it underrated? Is it overrated? Is it overrated?
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[19:52] You see i suppose 13 is ridiculously high for a song to achieve um i mean how many payment songs are there there's over 100 there's many songs but absolutely i think i think even considering that it is underrated by this list i think it should be higher wow it's a great song you really do like right in the corners uh-huh jeepers that's great well do you have anything that you need to plug uh ralph from lincolnshire uh i don't think i do i don't think no that's cool pavement plug them up yeah listen to them cool not not by chance making the trip to south america are you uh no i wish i was i wish i was me too uh i i kind of i don't know i don't know i i hope either they continue with like a whole many years worth more dates or they just go with uh you know we'll We'll start touring independently because I want to see Solo Mountainous. That'd be cool. Yeah. Yeah, he's very good. Very fucking good. All right, dude. It's been great talking to you today. And I really appreciate your time. And next week we're going to get to song number 12. So stay tuned for that one. Oh, it's heating up. That's right. Definitely heating up.
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[21:15] Use that hot water to wash your goddamn hands.
We've got Rachel from Portland in the house this week on The Pavement Top 50 Countdown. Rachel and jD discuss her Pavement origin story and unveil song number 14.
Transcript
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[0:00] Previously on the Pavement Top 50. And there it is at track 15 from Wowie Zowie, Rattled by the Rush. What are your thoughts on Rattled by the Rush, Ross from Fife? Well, I already said since I came to it last, Wowie's not my jam. I love it. It's still a Pavement album. It's never the one that I go to. Right. and Rattled by the Rush might be the last pavement hit that I actually heard oh really? Yeah, I don't think I heard it until at some point in the early 2000s I bought, I can't remember what it's called the DVD, Slow Century Slow Century, yeah I think maybe that's the first time I ever heard it oh, because they showed the video on that Yeah, I can't remember if it's the proper video or not. I know that they had to re-release the video because it was making people sick. People used to be such fucking pussies. Hey, this is Westy from the Rock and Roll Band Pavement.
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[1:14] And you're listening to The Countdown. Hey, it's J.D. Here, back for another episode of our Top 50 Countdown for Seminole Indie Rock Band, Pavement. Week over week, we're going to count down the 50 essential pavement tracks that you selected with your very own top 20 ballots. I then tabulated the results using an abacus and a calculator watch operated by the power of friendship. How will your favorite song fare in the rankings? You'll need to tune in to find out. So there's that. This week, I'm joined by pavement superfan Rachel from Portland. How the fuck is it going, Rachel? Going pretty well, JD. Thanks for having me. No, it's my pleasure. It's good to have you here. Well, let's not waste any time and get right to it. Rachel from Portland. Talk about your pavement origin story.
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[2:07] Hmm. Well, I first started listening to Pavement in high school and I am sure Cut Your Hair was the first song that I heard and it's just so catchy. And I don't even remember like where I heard it. I'm sure it was maybe on the, maybe on the radio, but it really grabbed me. There's something about just that it's so happy and it's so silly and I'm a very silly person and really gravitate towards that kind of music. So I got really curious about Pavement, but you know, Back in the 90s, CDs were really expensive. This was before I've heard a lot of people on your show talk about downloading tracks from Napster. I think I'm a little bit older than that, or maybe I'm a little technically not inclined.
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[2:51] So I made a lot of mixtapes with a tape recorder next to the radio to record songs off the radio. Um so i actually don't really i don't have a super clear memory of of like how it evolved from there i know there were a few other pavement songs that i heard and really liked like specifically trigger cut and and you know just some of the other really um happy ones but but i was also you know um you know getting really into the grateful dead and and other things so i didn't i didn't really pursue my love of pavement a lot but it but it always had this really special place in my heart. I think that when you, uh, the music that you listen to when you're growing up, it kind of just never, like, it always takes you back to that place in a certain way.
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[3:38] Um, so, uh, fast forward and I was, I was in high school, so I was a little too, um, you know, at that point I was kind of like going off and seeing some concerts. I never got to see pavement at that point. Um, but then, uh, fast forward a bunch of years when they got back together for their, reunion tour in 2010, and they'd released... Oh, your dog is so cute. Oh, just a second. Just one second. I'm sorry. Okay. Yes?
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[4:10] Hello? That doesn't typically happen, because typically the door is locked, and that means I'm recording, so I apologize. Now I'll be doing some editing. Are they? Yes, no problem. So they got back to there for their reunion tour and they released Quarantine the Past, Um, which, yeah, which is, is really interesting because in some ways, you know, the albums, there, there aren't some bands I listened to the albums like straight through and some I kind of pick and choose the songs and pavement. I really love listening to the albums themselves, um, and kind of each song in context of the album though. Sometimes I'll, you know, I, I like them more and more. So, um, I, they were coming to, they were coming just outside of Portland to Troutdale that year, and I'm pretty sure it was sold out. And I just had this feeling of like, I have to go. It just like wouldn't, kind of wouldn't leave me. And so I ended up buying tickets from some like strangers off of Craigslist. And I can't remember which of my friends was supposed to go with me, but whoever was supposed to go couldn't make it. And the day before the show, I randomly had, I was going to hang out with a woman that I had met through the yoga studio where I teach. And we were hanging out at her house. It was like our first friend hangout. And I saw that she had pavement tickets on her fridge. Like they were paper tickets.
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[5:40] And I said, are you going to the pavement show tomorrow? She said, yes, I love pavement. And I was like, can I go with you? And so I ended up going with her and her crew to the show. And it was one of, it was at the time, and this was 2010, I've been to a lot of concerts, but it was one of the, the like best shows I've been to in terms of just the energy on the stage and the way it just, the way it made me feel so alive and just so like joyful, you know, with, and, and one thing I love about Pavement is kind of this, this range of emotions that they go through. They have this very, you know, there's this whole thing about them being like slackers and being, you know, but, but they're very smart and they're very silly. And they kind of go from, you know, they kind of, they kind of go from these, like, they go through some really deep themes in their songs. So, you know, which we'll talk about when we get to our song for today. So I, I was after that, I was just so I was so hooked again. And I started like devouring the albums a little bit more and more. And so at that point, I started listening to them a lot more. And then they came back in 2022 to the same venue in Troutdale, Oregon.
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[6:47] And I was so excited. I mean, I bought the tickets as soon as they went on sale. I couldn't wait. And it was a great show. It really, really was so fun. But I couldn't actually, from where I was standing in the venue, I couldn't really see what was going on on stage, which is kind of a bummer because they're so fun to watch them and their interactions. Um but after that show I just had this feeling that was 22 and I had this feeling of I I need I need more pavement I need more pavement now and so I looked at their whole tour schedule and it was like Australia and and I just couldn't do it there was no there was no way I could like drop my whole life to to go on pavement tour you know and they and they just don't I mean they were playing a lot that year but they don't.
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[7:30] They don't play that much generally. And so in January of 23, when I saw them announce Iceland in July, I was like, I'm free those days. And then the cincher was that there's a nonstop flight from Portland to Reykjavik. I was like, nonstop. Really? Yeah, there's a lot of nonstop flights. That's beautiful. And there were a lot of bands at the time that were doing residencies at Harpa, like Papin did. Disco Biscuits did one. um freeze mcgee did one and wilco did one so um and a bunch of my friends are into those those bands and they had gone um for those shows so i just booked the flight and i and i was just like i'm gonna go i bought the tickets for the show and i bought specifically um the front row of the balcony because i really really wanted to see everything that was happening on stage um Um, and I was planning on going alone, you know, just cause there's so many bands that, you know, when I go see shows, I love going with friends and, you know, I'm, I'm a big fish fan and there's so many people in the world who are, who are into fish and they, and so like, when I go see fish, I have to decide, like, should I go with these fish friends or this friend with pavement? There's like, none of my friends are into, almost none of my friends are into pavement, um, which is, which is really sad. And so, um, I was just going to go. You've got some work ahead of you. Well, yeah, yeah, for sure.
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[8:56] And so, but two of my girlfriends really wanted to go to Iceland. And so they joined me on the trip and we ended up extending the trip a little bit. And we went around the whole, we rented a camper van and went around the whole island for a week, which was just out of this world. And I'm so grateful to, and neither of these women like pavement. They both came with me to the first show, but they were not into it. But one of them did all of the planning. She did all of this research and planned out our entire trip around the island. And all I did was listen to as much pavement as I could possibly get my hands on for one.
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[9:35] And so we had an amazing trip. They came to the first show. They weren't into it. And they didn't come to the other shows, which was fine because I'm like, I got to read. I got to read really hard. But I met some really lovely people, other pavement fans. There and the shows were beautiful they played quite a few repeats which were um the second night felt a little like i expected some repeats the second night it felt a little disappointing i was like how could there be so many repeats but by the third night they were mostly repeating stuff that i really like so i was okay with it um and i knew they were gonna do that you know i kind of expected it um there's a it's tough because they took what 70 70 songs on the road I forget. Somebody told us it was either 60 or 70. I was just re-listening to the episode with Steve West that I think maybe came out very recently. And he said 60. He said they took 60 songs on the road. That's who it was. Yeah. Yeah. And then they play 30 songs a night. So you're going to get some repeats. Yeah. Yeah. Which I expected. They did advertise B-sides and rarities for Iceland.
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[10:42] There were only so many, but it still was wonderful. And Harpa is a gorgeous venue. It's beautiful. It was also really funny. There's like no security in Iceland, you know? And so like, I'm so used to like hiding all my things when I go into a show. And like you know nobody they barely looked at my ticket that was pretty funny yeah it was um they they were they were lovely shows i had a really sweet moment um uh i think it was after the first show i was walking with my friends we were maybe a lot we were maybe two blocks from the venue and it's you know it's it's late at night but it's still light out because it was july in iceland and i saw this this kid he was probably maybe seven years old he looked like he He was, I don't know if he was Icelandic or if he was somehow related to the band. I think I've seen pictures of him in the front row from those shows. So maybe he was connected somehow.
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[11:37] But he was this kid and he was walking, I think, with his mother. And we were a few blocks from the venue. And I hear the kid just like, I hear him singing like, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do. And I just perk up and I start singing it with him. And he looks at me and his eyes just light up. And I was like, there's this connection that happens when people, you know, when it's this, it's familiarity. And we just, we didn't speak any words. We just had this like these huge smiles at each other and kept singing it as we were walking. So it was really cute. The magic of pavement. Wow. Cool. I really feel that.
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[12:14] Yeah. Oh, and then, and then after that, you know, they, they, they played those Brooklyn shows. I really wanted to go to them, but I couldn't go because I had to be in New York the next week. I actually had jury duty that week, so I just couldn't get to New York to go to the Brooklyn shows last year. But then this year, and then they played South America this year. I was like, I can't get to those either. I've got a lot of dreams of traveling for music that I can't quite make happen. But then they just played Bumbershoot in Seattle, which is only three hours away. way. And I was like, I was really torn because one of my dear friends was having a big blowout for his 50th birthday that same night. And I was just like, the pavement's not going to play that much longer, I don't think. And he said, I would never fault you for going to see music. So I went by myself. I took the train up to Seattle and had such a great time. And part of the reason I actually wanted to come on your podcast was one of the things that was so interesting to me about being at that show was, After being mostly in the balcony in Iceland, I did go down to the floor for the third night of that run. But I was determined. I was like, I want to be front row center for this show.
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[13:33] And the way that the Bumper Shoot is this really great festival. It's set up in Seattle Center. It's really beautiful. And so I was standing kind of to the outside of the stage where they were going to play as the band before them was finishing. And as soon as they were done, I kind of started walking towards the middle. And there was a spot on the rail I could have taken, but it was off to the side. I really wanted to be more central. So I went all the way to the center and I ended up, you know, like fourth or fifth row. But it was still an hour before they were going to start. And so there were all these people who were also crowding around, like waiting for them. And so a bunch of us ended up sitting down and just chatting. And these two people that I was sitting with and who I talked to a lot, And we, you know, we saved space for each other during that time. It was so fascinating. The, it was this, it was this man and this woman and she had, she had just three weeks ago turned 21.
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[14:28] And, and I know I just, I couldn't believe it. And so I asked her, and so I was like, tell, tell me how you got into pavement, you know, channeling you Diddy. And, and so we had this amazing conversation just about how she got into pavement and her favorite songs and everything. thing. And one of the things that I thought was so interesting, you know, we all know that, you know, pavement's having this TikTok resurgence. I'm not even on TikTok, so I don't know, you know, like all that stuff. But, but it was so interesting to me that there are, you know, and, and, oh, and almost all the, there was a lot of people who were, I'd say in my age range, slightly older than me, you know, maybe like in their fifties who were there, who were like really enjoying the show. But all the, most of the people who are right around me were, were in their twenties and it was so fascinating. And so the idea to me that there are people who, there are people who love pavement, like who are, who, who love pavement and love talking about pavement and love seeing pavement as much as I do, but have a completely different relationship with cut your hair than, than I do, you know, or that people who got into pavement, you know, when they first, when they first came out, it's so different. Um, and I was so fascinated by, by all of that. And then one of the weirdest things was that they didn't play cut your hair at the show. And, you know, I mean, they've played it in every other show I've been at, so it was okay. But I was actually really shocked about it. I was like, you know, they're catering to their new fans and they're not catering to their original fans.
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[15:56] It's very cool to think that, you know, all this touring and the TikTok stuff has really led to a new generation enjoying this band. And that's just a testament to, you know, the music they made, right?
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[16:18] For sure. And it's interesting that they, you know, like in some ways I really appreciate that they're not making new music as pavement. Like I love the new music that they're making. Otherwise I'm a really big fan of, you know, Stephen Malkin's and the Jicks and all of that work. And, and I'm really excited about the hard quartet stuff that's coming out. But, you know, there, there is a part of me that, that wonders, you know, what that would be like. And, and as much as I, in some ways, I wish like pavement hadn't broken up, like the stuff that Stephen Malkin, you know, created afterwards is so, so rich and so brilliant that, you know, I know that that was supposed to happen in that way. Yeah, I liken it to every time I make wishes about changing my past, you know, I think, I can't do that. I have two kids and I don't want anything to happen to them. I don't want to wish them away by accident. That would be terrible. Yeah, you want a butterfly to take your kids away. You know, the same thing goes with this man. Yeah. If they'd been broken up, you'd be on a totally different life path. Totally. Well what do you say rachel from portland that we take a break and then come back and listen to song number 14 yeah i'm into it all right let's do that hey.
Track 2:
[17:39] This is bob nastanovich from pavement thanks for listening and now on with a countdown down.
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[17:47] 14...
Track 3:
[21:19] This week, we're on the horn with AT&T. How are you feeling about song number 14, Rachel, from Portland?
Track 3:
[21:29] I love AT&T. The song is super fun. I really love the way in which, like, the verses go into this, you know, when he goes into the, like, whatever, whatever. And there's a kind of screaming thing in it. It almost feels like the whole song, like, could be complete. And then it like starts again with the second verse, which I really love. Um, I just go, it takes you on a really cool journey. And I also love to me, there's so much like meaning in it. And there's also so much, um, that I don't understand and feels a little bit nonsense, nonsensical to me, um, which, which I, which really, which I also love. Cause that, that really feels part of like the essence of pavement, you know, like there was something really deep and there was something that's really nonsense. Sense and and it's almost like i almost feel like as a band they like both want you to want to figure it out and they're like don't be a fool and try to figure it out i love that yeah i can see that my first talk with spiral stairs ever he talked about the mystery of the band and you know how the first uh couple eps they were just spiral stairs and sm people didn't even quite know on the the first EP, whether the band's name was Pavement or whether it was Slay Tracks.
Track 3:
[22:49] So they loved that mystery. So who knows, that might have carried forward rather than in Persona, but in the music. That's a nice assessment.
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[23:07] So what else do you think about when you think about this track? This is from Wowie Zowie. Is it one of your standout Wowie Zowie tracks?
Track 3:
[23:22] Yes and no. I mean, I love Wowie Zowie. It was, you know, I never submitted my top 20 ballot to you because I didn't find out about your podcast until after the ballots were in. And so when I, when I go through my like top 20, there's like, I don't know, 14 or so that are, that are very clearly in my top 14. And then there's, and then there's like 15 songs vying for the last six months. So this wasn't in that original, um, uh, roundup for me, but it is a song I really love. And, and there's most things on Wowie Zowie that I, you know, that again is an album I really enjoy listening to through. Through um and uh and I you know I would never I would never I would never skip this song when it came on it's um uh and now and now that I've like spent so much time listening to it for this podcast it it definitely might it might up its way into my top 20 a little bit um yeah but there's so many good songs on Wawi Zawi it's hard to it's hard to you know um I don't I don't think there's any on wawi zawi that i don't really love that much yeah i put you on the spot yeah, so um what do you think this one's do you have a do you have a take on this on this one i do i do have a take on it and i'm just gonna say i'm gonna preface.
Track 3:
[24:48] This by saying that um i i'm a life coach and so i think that i'm um coming to this from a little bit of like a life coach you know uh way of viewing it so i also will say that you know that's just my perspective and i i don't need to be right on any of this this is just the interpretation that that i came up with based on reading it um okay so a couple things that so first of all um at&t you know obviously it's a um you know phone company communication company so i think that that in essence there's this idea about, um, the, the way in which we are like in communication with each other, but also the way in which we are in communication with ourselves.
Track 3:
[25:30] Um, and the way in which that can be like clear and the way in which that can be clouded a little bit. Um, I did, I did go online and just kind of like look up the lyrics and read some things. And there, you know, there's a lot of different, there's a lot of different controversy about the lyrics in terms of, um, the way that they're printed like on the, you know, if you look, if you look at the lyrics, there's a lot of people who are like, no, that's not right. So, so, you know, who knows, who knows about that stuff. But, um, Uh, I, I personally think that there's a, well, let me just tell you, let me tell you what I'm feeling. All right. So, um, so when it starts with this, maybe someone's going to save me. I did, I did read somewhere that it's, that that's kind of like, um, punking Oasis a little bit. I don't know if that's true, but I, I kind of like the idea of it. Um, but, but to me, what it really means is like, I kind of feel that this is somebody who, you know, this song is really kind of speaking about somebody who is almost like afraid to take action in their own life and is kind of like swimming in the soup of what they, of like what they think they're supposed to be doing, you know, whether that's like the corporate ladder or, you know, or having success in certain ways. And so this idea of like, maybe someone's going to save me is, is kind of like, I'm not going to take my own action and I'm just going to kind of wait for someone else to come in and create direction.
Track 3:
[26:54] And, and so I think that kind of, to me, I really feel that in the, like, the laps I swim from lunatics don't count. Like, I'm like, I think a lot of us take, you know, we do, it's not like we're totally inactive. It's not like we're sitting on the couch all day, like couch potatoes, but we're maybe doing things that, that are, you know, helpful to others, but not necessarily helpful to ourselves, you know, or, or, you know, like, not, not the most urgent or meaningful things that we need to do, even though, even though they're, you know, it's action. So the things that when it when it says that open up your stockings, pull out of the things you never wanted from room service calls. To me, that really has to do with like, The the ways in which, you know, like the limiting beliefs or the bad habits that we've that we've gotten either like from our parents or from society or from the people who cared for us and the ways in which our brains kind of took that and and and turned it into operating systems for how we move through the world, which, you know, I think in general, those are very helpful in the sense that they got us through what we needed to get through. But they're not always helpful because they somehow sometimes they really limit us and they create like false beliefs that keep us from achieving what we want to achieve in our lives i know i'm getting i'm getting real deep here this is just the first verse.
Track 3:
[28:17] No this is cool i'll tell you what because i'm a little high right now and you're taking me places rachel from portland this is all right so keep at it okay cool so um so the whole idea was like open up your hands and let me see the things you keep in there in there. Like that to me really speaks to me about this idea of like, of like being vulnerable and like showing your true authentic self. And what I think the song is, is kind of challenging is this idea that like.
Track 3:
[28:46] That it is like, that's how we make real connection. And at the same time, it's really vulnerable and uncomfortable. We don't always want to do it. Right. You know, like and so, and so that, you know, that's kind of, That's kind of how I see this song, that like somebody who's really kind of afraid to connect with their own full, authentic, true self and is kind of experiencing the discomfort of, you know, living in a world where they're like putting on a face.
Track 3:
[29:19] Does that make sense? Yeah. I mean, does it make sense? Maybe you haven't thought about that song this song in that way i haven't thought about it in this way for absolute sure no this is cool um yeah keep yeah keep going i was i had a question slips away, Okay, yeah, let me know if you remember it. So then because then it goes into the like, whenever, whenever I feel fine, which I just love the riff on this. It's so high energy and fun. And then it gets into those really silly, like, like groovy, groovy kitty. But, um, but it's this idea of like, whenever I feel fine, I'm going to walk away from all this, all that. And it's kind of like, I don't know if you've heard people say, I'm sure I'm sure we've all heard people say things like, Oh, I can't do this because of this. Or like, you know, when this thing happens, then I'll be then I'll be able to do this. And it's almost like, wait, you know, I hear the character like waiting for, you know, waiting for that someone's that's going to save me. And when I feel better, then I'm going to do these things as opposed to just taking the action to make themselves be ready to do it. You know, like I'll walk away now as opposed to when I'll walk away whenever it is that I feel better.
Track 3:
[30:32] And this is where we get to one part where there was a, there's a, what's the word I'm looking for? Discrepancy in the lyrics. The lyrics that I found say, yeah, the lyrics I found say, you skinny, skinny people don't like that when you calm them. But I read online, somebody said, no, it's when you call them or when you call on them, which also works for AT&T. I think both ways work in terms of this interpretation. Like, like people don't like it when you're not authentic with them, you know? And so, or when you, in terms of a calm them, if it is call on them, then it could be like, Like, you know, almost this feeling of fear that if you ask someone for something, then, you know, it's like almost a fear of our own neediness, if that makes sense. You know, like everybody has needs, but nobody wants to be needy, you know, like we all want like, but we all have needs. And so I think if you're, you know, if it's like, if it's saying, you know, people don't like that when you call on them, if that's the lyric, then then there's almost this idea of like, a fear that if I ask someone for something, then they're gonna, you know, then then it's very vulnerable. Again, it puts you out there in a way that could be considered uncomfortable.
Track 3:
[31:49] Very, very interesting look at that. And it's nice that you prefaced it with your occupation. Because it's... No, where I'm going with this is we all bring our shared experiences to these songs. And you've shared some experiences with people as well. Well, so you're probably bringing all of that, you know, like you've got, yeah, you've given us some stuff to think about. Anyway, that's where I'm going with that. Yeah, for sure. And I wonder if the band would like laugh at me and be like, no, this isn't what it's about at all. I can honestly say all 50 episodes of this, the band would laugh.
Track 3:
[32:40] I think all 50 episodes. it's like but be grateful as well because they get to meet all all of y'all so that's the cool part as for um in i started university as a poetry major creative writing and poetry and, that's all you do in the first in the first semester is analyze poetry and it's like 90% of it is putting yourself out there, you know, on the limb, right? Most people, most people don't. Well, Rachel from Portland, do you have anything you'd like to plug? Um.
Track 3:
[33:25] I don't think so. There might, there might be a, a time coming soon where maybe a pavement song might be sung by me somewhere, someplace, but I'm not going to, I don't think I can say too much more about that. So if you happen to be in Portland, you know, you can find me somewhere. Get it recorded and you can submit it to the pod list next year. Oh, maybe I will. See?
Track 3:
[33:54] That's good. All right. That's what I've got for you. Uh want to thank rachel and i want to definitely thank pavement for at&t and all the other songs that we've heard so far next week we are going to track number lucky number 13, so uh hit the roulette wheel put it all on 13 and just some jd sent you and in the meantime wash your goddamn hands.
:
This week on the pod, jD sits down with Ross to discuss his Pavement origin story and reveal track 15.
Transit:
Track 2:
[0:00] Previously on the Pavement Top 50. Coming in at number 16, it's Fill More Jive. It's the third song from Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain, behind Stop Breathing at 28 and Cut Your Hair at 21. So this song actually beats Cut Your Hair, which is, I don't know, is that surprising? Is that surprising to you? You no i'd rather pick bill more jive over over cut your hair but i mean cut your hair is the pop song so yeah yeah that's why i was surprised it wouldn't be in the top five or something i was you know just looking at the spotify uh the spotify plays you know uh-huh cut your hair is like way up there and bill more jive is not right right so is is it do you consider it like a deep cut like when you guys went to it on the most recent tour was it um was it a deeper cut in the bag of songs that you brought yeah i say a deeper cut because i don't think we we did it in 2010, okay and we hadn't done it for years in the 90s like i think we did it in 94 and maybe they did it with Gary too before me.
Track 2:
[1:23] So I would say it's a deep cut live, but in terms of, you know, records, you know, for people to really enjoy, it's a pretty great number.
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[1:46] Hey, it's Shady here, back for another episode of our Top 50 Countdown for sentimental indie rock band, Pavement. Week over week, we're going to count down the 50 essential Pavement tracks that you selected with your very own Top 20 ballads. I then tabulated the results using an abacus and an abacus for dummies book. How will your favorite song fare in the rankings? Well, you'll need to tune in to find out. So there's that. This week, I'm joined by Pavement superfan, Ross from Fife. How the fuck are you doing, Ross from Fife? I'm good. Good from Fife.
Track 3:
[2:24] Excellent. This is good news. It's always nice to talk pavement with somebody, especially when they're doing well. Well, I don't get enough chances here to talk about anything pavement, so. Well, we're going to do that right now. Let's hear your pavement origin story. Story um well the very first time i heard pavement and this only came back to me in the last couple of weeks uh as i was thinking about you know this interview um and either it was either late 99 or early 2000s my high school girlfriend put major leagues on a mixtape you remember when you used to make mixtapes for you know for sure for your crush or your significant other at the time or whatever yeah she she made me a mixtape with uh major leaks and i i liked it it didn't set me off on my journey or anything you know but that's that's the first time i'm definitely aware of having heard Pavement. Right. A couple of years later, one of my friends.
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[3:38] It was right about the time of, like, Eminem was huge. Dr. Dre had just released 2001. Yeah. Snoop Dogg was big. One of my friends flipped almost overnight from being an indie rock fan to a hip-hop fan. Oh, wild. So, yeah, I guess he was giving away his old CDs that he didn't listen to anymore or whatever. And he gave me Terror Twilight. It was a... I can't remember if he thought, right, Ross would like this or if he was just getting rid of it, you know? Yeah. But it really took me by surprise. I really liked it.
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[4:27] At the time I was technically homeless. I wasn't living on the streets or whatever. I was crashing on people's couches. I was going through the sort of system like halfway houses and whatever. So I didn't have much possessions. but one of the one things I did have was Terror Twilight, and I would listen to it all the time while playing my Nintendo Game Boy or whatever and, it kind of felt like a it felt like a secret you know like my secret, because I'd never met another single living soul who had heard of Not just the album, but the band. I remember round about, it would have been the back end of 2001.
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[5:28] Just pre-9-11, which seems weird, but that's the way that I remember this particular. I was on a lunch break at my first job, and I read a review of the first Malcolm A Soul album.
Track 3:
[5:49] And the review spent more time talking about Pavement than it did, you know, his new band, basically stating that, you know, these guys are legends, just they didn't get their due or whatever. No, I agree with that. So, yeah, a year later or whatever, I've got Terra Twilight, I love it. These guys are such enigmas to me you know this is before I was on the internet I couldn't Wikipedia them, I couldn't you know, there was no YouTube, stuff like that and by the way all this is, well some of this is on your 17th or 18th episode Krelvid User, you read out my letter oh gosh I had totally forgotten about that I remember I have a terrible memory you asked for submissions because back then a lot of the songs were quite short or even non-existent so yeah I got day drunk one day.
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[7:10] I'd been out with colleagues and I thought I'm going to write JD a letter and tell him how I yeah so.
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[7:20] My next the next part of the story is, I knew about the re-releases I think at some point, I don't know why I bought Sebado 3, the re-release of that album and, the album on the front it had a sticker with some sort of blurb from a music journalist saying that, This album, along with Pavement, created the blueprint for American indie. Jesus, high praise. Again, that just put it in my head. And I didn't even like Sebado Free that much. I quite like the band altogether, but I don't think it's a great album. So round about that time we're still talking about 2002 3, 4 maybe I don't have a great memory either, I go to Glasgow to watch a British band Rubin, I don't think they're around.
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[8:30] Anymore but their first couple of albums were pretty good we go to King Tut's Wawa Hut, which is quite a famous venue because it's where uh oasis got signed by creation really yeah oh cool um it's a tiny place you can only fit you know two three hundred people in it maybe even then that might be a fire hazard uh but even before before the gigs played and the the venue's underground, it's like in a basement, before the gig me and a couple of friends are upstairs and I'm going through the jukebox, they've got one of these sort of.
Track 3:
[9:20] They're old fashioned now, but at the time they were quite modern, the jukeboxes where the album covers flip over in front of you, you know? Yeah. And I find a pavement, Slandered and Enchanted, and it's like, oh, that's that band, that's Territorial, you know, I keep hearing about them. So I stick five songs on, don't even hear them because, you know, the bar's so crowded, so noisy. But still it sticks in my head I want to learn more you know so a short time after that, I'm shopping locally in the nearest sort of large town.
Track 3:
[10:09] And I go into MVC it's a I don't know if it was an offshoot of HMV. I don't know if you've got any of this in Canada or not. You did have HMV at one time. Yeah, but they're all gone now anyway. And I find a copy of the Crooked Rain re-release. Okay. But it's like £25 or something. I was making decent money at the time. I had my first proper well-paying job. I had disposable income I was no longer homeless, But I'm not going to spend £25 on this CD I've got no idea if it's good or it's bad There's like 50 tracks So I know I'm probably going to get some sort of value for money.
Track 3:
[11:06] I leave. I think nothing else of it. About half an hour later, I go around the corner, and there's this independent record store sleeves. People in Fife will mourn it forever. It's gone now as well, as most independent record stores probably are. But in there, I find a copy of the re-release for £5. What? yeah it's a bit battered it's a bit broken as I think all pavement records should be, but yeah no questions asked I immediately buy it.
Track 3:
[11:52] I read on the bus home I read the, sort of the booklet that comes with it which just the whole time it's just adding to the mystique you know because I think Malkmus writes, I think it's from an old like, article he writes like an explanation for each song and it's never quite clear if he's just taking the piss or not, he says about stop breathing is a bit of a tennis match I was like, why wouldn't it be, you know? So, yeah, that night, the Saturday night, it burned in my memory. I mentioned this in the Creelvid user video as well.
Track 3:
[12:46] All my friends are going out on the town which was never an exciting occasion, but this night especially I put my foot down and said I'm not coming out I've got to paint a wall which I did, I had a wall to paint in my living room or wherever but my main reason for staying in was I wanted to listen to Crooked Ruin, Wow So I get everything ready I get A couple of beers ready Like take a couple of bong hits Or whatever I used to do that by then.
Track 3:
[13:28] And I get the I get the CD ready And the stereo you know And as soon as I switch it on I'm just transfixed, Like The intro to Silent Kid Or Silent Kit whatever they call it is still one of the most exciting pieces of music to me. It's fucking spectacular. Yeah, but I'd never heard a band do that. I know they've got a reputation of not giving a fuck, and a lot of bands tried to affect that feeling back then, but this is the first time I'd ever truly heard it. Yeah, yeah. Just the build-up and you hear them talking to each other and it's like, we're just going to leave that in? And it's like, yeah, of course we are. That's the recording, you know. And I just sat down on the edge of the couch, just staring at the stereo.
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[14:35] And then every song after that just added to the... It was... Yeah, it was the most exciting night of music I've ever had. Oh, Jesus, that gives me goosebumps. And for, like, a good maybe six months after that, I think it's all I listened to. Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain. And of course there was a lot to listen to because it was the re-release so I got all the.
Track 3:
[15:10] I got all the demos of B-Sides as well and this was, perhaps, you could call it their golden era you know it had another one of my favourite pavement tracks Grounded, it had the demo of that so you got like a sort of, you know a sneak peek of what was to come, but yeah after that I think all my friends got sick of me, talking about pavement going on about pavement and it still happens quite a lot these days, you'd hear a new song on the radio and I'd say that's just a fucking pavement rip off, you know it still happens to this day I hear a song and I think, nah, you're the biggest band in Britain just now, probably, or Wet Lake, you heard them? No, I've not. Oh, they went really viral a couple of years ago with their first video, which is She's Long. Yeah. But yeah, they're big. They're quite popular in my work. I'll run Night Shift. Sometimes the radio sucks. Sometimes it's pretty cool.
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[16:33] But yeah, they were getting played in the radio quite a bit. I went and listened to their album. And the final track on the album is called Supermarket. Okay. And I'm not going to call it a pavement ripoff, but it's definitely pavement inspired. Really? Yeah. It's like they sat down and thought, like, let's write a pavement song, you know? Not rip off a Pavement song, but let's write an homage. Yeah. You can go and check it out afterwards. It's kind of Wally's Alley-ish. Huh. But yeah. What's your go-to record at this point? Oh, that's always going to be Crooked Rain. Yeah? Always. Just because of those memories? Because of the night it blew me away, you know? Yeah. Second, I would say, was Slanted. That's the record I came to next.
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[17:27] Believe it or not, probably my least favorite, and there is no least favorite, it's still a pavement record. Probably the one I go to least is Wowie. Oh, yeah? And I think that's just because that's the one I came to last. Right.
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[17:46] But yeah, I was thinking of weird pavement stuff to tell you. After all, the very first time I listened to WALL-E, or not the first time I listened to it, but probably my favorite song on WALL-E is Father.
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[18:04] Father to a Sister of Thought. Fucking brilliant song, yeah. And in that song, they mention Corpus Christi. Right. Right. The very first time I heard that song, I was driving my car. And they mentioned the Corpus Christi part. And straight away, I receive a phone call from my dad who was working in Corpus Christi. Get out of here. Yeah, seriously. That's fucked. He was in Texas, and he phones me, and I've just heard this Corpus Christi line. Like, what the hell? and I didn't even pull over to take the phone call, which is technically illegal. Well, I'm going to turn you in. Another thing is it was weird with pavement. Once I knew of them, once I... Go into them i saw them everywhere it's like oh yeah it's like when you've never heard a word before and you hear a new word and suddenly you just hear it everywhere you know right um so yeah the other sort of weird kind of thing is uh a couple years after that i'm moved to.
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[19:26] They call it a city it's not really a city dundee in scotland not a nice not a nice place, so I'd start sort of dating this girl I can't even remember if we were dating at the time, she was a bit weird I realised far too late that she was highly autistic but we were math students so that comes to the territory, and one of the weirdest things about her is she was obsessed with this cartoon from the 90s, Space Ghost. Okay, yeah. So one day we go out for coffee, and just before we go to the coffee shop, I go and buy the Bright in the Corners re-release. And what are the last two songs on it? Space Ghost. Space Ghost theme, yeah. I think that made her like me more, you know. So it went in my favor. Nicely done. Well, what do you say we get into listening to track number 15? What is that? Well, we're not going to tell you until after this break. Okay. All right, we'll be right back.
Track 2:
[20:53] Hey, this is Bob Mustanovich from Pavement. Thanks for listening, and now on with a countdown.
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[25:25] And there it is at track 15 from Wowie Zowie, Rattled by the Rush. What are your thoughts on Rattled by the Rush, Ross, from Fife? Well, I already said since I came to it last, Wowie's not my jam.
Track 3:
[25:47] I love it. It's still a pavement album. It's never the one that I go to. Right. and Rattled by the Rush might be the last pavement hit that I actually heard. Oh, really? Yeah. I don't think I heard it until at some point in the early 2000s. I bought, I can't remember what it's called now, the DVD. Slow Century. Slow Century, yeah. Yeah. I think maybe that's the first time I ever heard it. Oh because they showed the video on that right yeah I can't remember if it's the proper video or not I know that they had to re-release the video because it was making people sick, people used to be such fucking pussies, yeah um and I don't dislike the song or anything um if it's number 15 that's kind of surprising it wasn't in my top 20 No. It probably would be in my top 50. Okay. It sounds like I'm hating here. I'm not hating. No. At all.
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[27:07] Well, you definitely think it's overrated at 15, so that's... Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah. Definitely. The most interesting thing is obviously the lyrics. It's like a typical sort of malchemist crossword yeah I would agree with that I took a few notes, the opening line oh that I could bend my tongue outwards leave your lungs hurting.
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[27:42] Could be sexual. Could be? It could also pertain to that tongue trick thing where people can fold their tongue up, you know? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I did a little research and apparently 73% of adults can do it. I cannot do it. I can't either, but I've learned that you can teach yourself to do it. Oh, really? yeah i was i i work night shift so you've got to find ways to pass the time yeah exactly um and that was a thing that was going about work a couple of years ago everybody asking can can you do it can you not and i can't do it but i have learned that you can teach yourself but you haven't taught yourself well I, I got I got halfway there but I forgot to keep like doing it you know gotcha it was it was never, maybe if I put it together for a pavement song that would have helped.
Track 3:
[28:53] Yeah after that we've got leave your lungs hurting tuck in my shirt and pints I wear so well cross your t-shirt smell well, that's just good malchus wordplay, right? Yeah. Maybe there's a specific meaning. Obviously, there's a theme there, clothing.
Track 3:
[29:16] After that, we come on to the best line in the song, maybe the best line in Pavement's entire discography, caught my dad crying. Yes. I wrote down here maybe it's better we don't know what it means yeah I mean I don't think for a single second Malcolm has walked in on his dad crying, but just the imagery the thoughts it's, The crucial word is caught. He could have said, saw my dad crying. He could have said, found my dad crying. But he says caught. Right. Like it's a bad thing, you know.
Track 3:
[30:03] So, yeah, God knows what to say about that. It's just a great line, you know. I agree. After that, we've got, Loose like the wind from the rough we get par. This is one of my favorite things about Pavement. They like to make sports metaphors they do yeah and we've got a whole song about sports and London Lions that was in my top 20, we've got bring on the major leagues possibly their biggest hit yeah but also just the line from the rough we get par, that would indicate to me after a bad start things have turned out alright right.
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[30:47] And I know there's a prevailing feeling that the whole song is about their career or where their career has taken them I didn't know that well just the whole rattled by the rush just them being affected by, whatever level of fame they'd built up I didn't hear Pavement until 99 so I didn't get to witness the, right the ascent or the rise or whatever right you know right but yeah i've heard in doing a lot of research i did that this the whole song was about their you know them struggling to cope with you know whatever rise the rise to fame yeah and i do know from reading the liner notes and uh.
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[31:39] In both Crooked Reign and Huawei re-releases that they were kind of fighting back against it. Maybe not fighting back against it, I think that gets overplayed sometimes. But I think Mark missed his explain. Maybe on Huawei or the Crooked re-release that they were kind of scared.
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[32:08] You know how could you not be they were like a couple dudes from Stockton you know that were that recorded some noise art and next thing you know cut your hair comes out and that I would say is the biggest song oh yeah definitely I find that at the time as well it was just a really big time for music yeah a lot of majors were looking for the next Nirvana that's right Pavement were never going to be that. But they could have filled a hole, filled a gap. Spin Magazine named them the best band, pardon me, the best album of 2000, no, not 2000, 1992. Before the album even came out, right? Before it was chanted, yeah. No, no, it had come out. It had come out. It was the number one record of the year for 1992. So they came with a lot of buzz, like a lot of buzz. I remember reading the sort of tapes that they sent out for slanted they didn't send many out but every single one found its way to someone influential that's right I don't know if they were friends but they were fucking around with Sonic Youth.
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[33:27] Certainly helped they opened for Sonic Youth on the UK tour yeah first time in the UK in 92 so that was there's a great Nostanovich podcast with another Canadian guy.
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[33:42] There's like music journalism online oh is it creative control I think that's what it is I think that's what it is he explains that him Malkmus and Berman got a Nirvana show, cancelled, not cancelled but shut down in New York because they were being so boisterous. Really? Yeah, and this was before Nirvana took them to Redden and stuff, you know? Wow. So they were in that... They were in that space. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
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[34:17] They probably were getting a lot bigger than they thought they'd ever be, were ever prepared to be. Absolutely. Especially, you know, Slanted came out with a lot of hype, but Crooked Rain all of a sudden was this record that had hits on it, gold sounds and cut your hair. So, you know, I think a lot of people got maybe a bit carried away about what they could be. Well, one of the things, it doesn't fit into the hype, one of the things I wanted to mention about Crooked Rain maybe one of the reasons I liked it so much is it's a little bit what I call country fried, okay yeah I can see that father to sister of thought especially right well that's wowie, Crooked Rain's got his own range life I'm sorry but whenever an indie rock band, introduces a little element into country, I call it Country Frights. Country Frights.
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[35:14] Crookheads and while we are definitely Country Frights, one of my favourite modern bands, Parkey Courts, they're a bit Country Frights. I've heard a lot of comparisons to Pavement with them. Well, the reason I first listened to Parkey Courts is I've seen an article where Malchmus was in a record store and he heard Parkey Courts and he thought it was Pavement. Jesus Christ, really? That's the reason I first listened to them, you know? Yeah. And? What do you think?
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[35:50] Their first album, definitely, I could see the comparisons. The same kind of attitudes, like not really caring about tunings or you know. Just the first take's good enough no matter what. But that is a real good album. You should listen to Lie Up Gold, Parquet Courts. I'll check it out. Yeah, it's very, very good. I was trying to think. Meat Puppets, they were kind of country fried. Yeah, yeah. Have you got anything else on Brattled by the Rush? Well, it might destroy every argument I've already made, but the first chorus, I'm Drowning for Your First, that reads to me like being desperate for someone's attention, And that's not pavement at all, you know? No, no. Maybe that's something very personal to Malchus. Yeah, I'm drowning for your... The second album's kind of... The second verse, I think he's just showing off. Rhyming candelabra with Barbara.
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[37:12] There's other lines. get all those hard hats and sing us some scat. I just think he's scatting himself there, you know? Yeah. Although the very last line, again, it's one of their best. I don't need a minister to call me a groom. I love it. What does that mean to you? What does it mean to me? I think, well, I don't need a minister to call me a groom. Like, you can, like, fuck religion. and you can go and get married or you can do whatever you want.
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[37:47] Well, this is maybe just completely personal to me. Have you ever been in a sort of strictly friends with benefits relationship? No. No. Well, I have. I was for a couple of years. And to be honest, it was maybe the healthiest relationship I've ever been in. But um i noticed during that time that friends of mine who were in traditional relationships, they fucking hated it oh wow because i was getting all the good stuff without, all the bad stuff you know and i never had to meet her parents i never had to go on any any dates with Ikea. See what I did there? I got it. Yeah, so every time I hear, I don't need a minister to call me a groom. That's what comes to mind. Really? That's just maybe because of, you know, where I was at the time. Yeah.
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[38:53] But yeah, again, I've seen that linked back to the music industry. And I guess Malcomus doesn't need I don't know who the minister is but to call me a groom would be to call me a star you know, okay I can he's already a star selling you know a quarter of what other bands are, and then of course they go on I'm rattled by the rush I'm rattled by the rush etc that that.
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[39:29] And I know that Pavement's writing is sometimes a bit obtuse or weird, but that has to be a reaction to whatever level of fame or popularity they've gained by that point. I can see it. We've got the interlude, no soap in the John. That's very funny. I know that John's a sort of Americanism for toilet. Yeah. So to me, that would mean no sort of airs or graces.
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[40:06] Or they're not going to clean themselves up for whatever, whoever. You've done a deep dive on some of these. I've thought about it a little bit. Yeah, you have. I've had a lot of time recently.
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[40:23] Well, dude, speaking of time, it's been a great time hanging out with you talking pavement. I really appreciate you making some time for me and doing this, hearing your pavement origin story and talking about Song 15. Next week, we're going to hit Song 14, and I'm going to tell you what it is right now. No, I'm not. I'm just kidding. All right everybody is there any clue is there any clues you can give to like not what's in the top 10 or not a bit no way is there anything that took you by surprise, it all took me by surprise so far yeah we're gonna at the end of the series we're gonna do some sort of round table with people who haven't got a chance to be on and they will um, discuss the list as a whole because they'll have the entire list at that point. It's difficult, you know, recording this and you don't know all the songs that come before it. But hey, that's part of the game. I should point out that with my whole Crooked Re experience, Gold Sounds is my number one favorite song from anyone of all time and it's probably never going to change. It's a fucking great song. And if it's not number one, I'm going to write.
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[41:44] All right, dude. Talk to you soon. Wash your goddamn hands.
This week Steve West calls in to chat with jD about a variety of things including song # 16
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[0:00] Previously on the Pavement Top 50. There you have it. Song number 17 is Zurich is Stained from the debut long play Slanted and Enchanted. Mike, is this song in fact slanted and or enchanted? Discuss. Yes, indeed. I love this song. This song, it really is. And it's sort of an oasis. I love where it appears on the record. it's coming straight out of the chaos of uh conduit for sale and right before the chaos of chelsea's little wrists and you get this like really light breezy but fast song i mean it's not a ballad it's not like here it is it is this breezy light almost feels like it would be, at home on the Velvet Underground's third record. Hey, this is Westy from the Rock and Roll Band Pavement.
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[1:03] And you're listening to The Countdown. Hey, it's JD here, back for another episode of our Top 50 Countdown for Seminole Indie Rock Band Pavement. Week over week, we're going to count down the 50 essential pavement tracks that you selected with your very own Top 20 ballads. I then tabulated the results using an abacus and a motorcycle and sidecar driven by an orangutan. How will your favorite song fare in the rankings? You'll need to tune in to find out. So there's that. This week, we're joined by Pavement superfan. No, wait a minute. Pavement superstar, Steve fucking West. Westy, how the fuck are you? I'm doing pretty good today. Yes. It's a good day, right? Yeah. Good day. Well, let's get right into it. Everybody else has been coming on and talking about their pavement origin story. I feel like that's sort of a strange thing because we've talked about it a little bit in the past. But I'm curious what it was like for you, I don't know, getting the call or getting the letter or whatever it was, the communication, the telephone call or whatever, that they were looking to fill Gary's role or like how that looked like. What what did that look like on your end?
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[2:25] Well, it was kind of a long process of, you know, knowing Bob from high school and then being in Manhattan and Brooklyn and meeting Stephen and Bob and David. And then knowing that they were having difficulties kind of with with Gary.
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[2:46] I can't say that I didn't know that it might be coming. And there was a phone call, like you said. But um i didn't really you know you know it kind of blew me away when it when it happened i think it was on a pay phone in manhattan and i was working at a um at a gallery helping to put up some artwork for leo castelli oh wow and i talked to steven and he was like i don't know man just put those drumsticks in the oven and keep them worn because i don't know what it's going to happen. So, you know, he was, he was giving me a heads up, but he wasn't promising me anything and understandable because, you know, the things were up and down with Gary. And so, and then, uh, I really, when it actually happened, I don't really remember any other phone call where it was because we, Steven and I would see each other quite a lot. And we lived in Brooklyn and, And we would hang out together when he wasn't on tour.
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[3:56] And, you know, we play music together with David. When Bobby wasn't around, we were I kind of sat in as a drummer for them for the Silver Dudes and those little jam sessions we'd have in Brooklyn. So that kind of was the thing that kind of eased me into the whole playing music with with Stephen as well as with David. Wow and I had a loft in Brooklyn on 1st and 1st I think it was.
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[4:31] South fifth. And it was a really crappy loft and it had, you know, we can make a lot of noise and it was right next to the Williamsburg bridge. And yep. And there was a tiny room in the back that Steven and I rehearsed, all those crooked rain songs when, you know, Gary had broken up and I guess I had joined the band and then we were like there jamming he was kind of introducing me to those songs in this room you know smaller than the bedroom that you have right there it was a small room it was like 10 by 10 not even probably, and uh i remember the guys upstairs complaining and banging on the ceiling and i was like come on this is a loft this is what you do in brooklyn this is what you're here you're an artist and you're musicians, and you make noise. You get a loft, and you make art, and you make noise. Totally. Yeah, we rehearsed those a few times, and then went in to record in Manhattan.
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[5:41] Wow. That's pretty whirlwind, too, then, right? Yeah, I mean, it happened over a couple of months, but over a summer, that summer of, I guess, 93, um spring when i think gary quit i'm not hard for me to remember all the logistics of that's that's cool that's cool this isn't uh uh that kind of podcast where we you know get too into the weeds yeah yeah so what do you remember about um like a first show or when did you meet the rest of the guys like you were you were jamming with steve and you guys were coming up with crooked rain stuff and you were you know laying down drums for it in manhattan at the um, at that uh oh my gosh i forget the name of it right now but that uh pseudo studio, right while i recorded that that's right yeah that's right um yes so i think what happened was that spring before we recorded Crooked Rain um.
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[6:54] There was a Drag City Invitational, and it might have been late spring, early summer. And we drove out to Chicago and played that. And that was the first time I played with the full group.
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[7:13] I played with Steven and his girlfriend, Alexa, and maybe Mark. And we played at a show in New York City for a matador like in reunion or something like that show but that wasn't really pavement and we just played new songs or whatever I don't know what it was but the first pavement show was at the drag city thing drag city invitational um it was at a club that was across the street from where Dillinger was uh captured caught shot and captured um in Chicago and uh you know a lot of great bands on Drag City were there and Silver Juice played and um I guess uh Royal Trucks played as.
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[8:01] Well and they recorded those stood a bit of it in the basement and um I remember playing that show and we had never practiced so it was just kind of like guessing really about everything yeah I don't think we practiced at all no we just went out there and played it and i had played you know the some some of the songs with steven but you know the crooked rain songs but the old songs we had never played all together so i just had to kind of they knew them and i had to you know make sure i kind of knew them and we got through it was a short set but it was good yeah that's pretty cool that's that's pretty cool it would be a cool.
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[8:43] Ticket stub to own for the, you know, the first complete Pavement Band show, you know? Yeah.
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[8:53] So you getting your hands dirty with Crooked Rain, does that tend to be the record that you would go back to if you were the type of person to listen to your own content? I don't know if you do. Like, I don't know if you, you know, listen to records that you've been on or whether you, you know, sort of avoid it. Like, I don't listen to very many of these podcasts, for example, just because, you know, they're done. They're done. They're done. Exactly. Like, I got their history. Yeah. What is that like with you with records? Is there one that you go back to that you're really proud of or anything like that?
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[9:30] No, I mean, technically, I just go back to listen to practice to them. So I'm prepared for whatever's coming ahead. But, you know, each one has different memories for me. And of course, Crooked Rain was this fresh guy trying to figure out how to play with Stephen as well as with the whole band live as well as the recording. Recording um and uh wowie dowie would probably be more of a band thing where i would be like that was nostalgic was a really fun recording session in memphis and everything so but you know they're all different and they all have good and bad memories so i don't go back to them to listen that way i'm not that old yet.
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[10:24] But when i go to practice to him i try to practice to like our live stuff that we did this past year right as well as um the rehearsals that we did in portland and i have all like the hard drives of the breakdown of the songs and you know the tracks and everything so, i'm probably more prepared for what could be thrown at me as you know how we play the songs live as a as a six piece and how we record them over the years in different setups so right it's two different ways of you know being prepared for all the things to be thrown at you yeah i suppose so like i mean was this was this tour like the well i call it this tour but the 2022 tour was that the most you guys had rehearsed like for uh for a series of shows before.
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[11:17] I think so. I mean, the 2010, I think we practiced about five or five to eight times. But this time was a much better environment. And I think we practiced at least 10 or 12 days to prepare for that Fonda show in, I guess it was L.A. Which was great. I was on that one. That was fantastic. That was fun. and we all worked really hard to you know learn a whole lot of songs and be prepared how many did you take on the road um i think it was around 60 jeez yeah 60 songs that we could somehow pull out you know yeah and do that's a lot that's a lot of songs yeah and i mean you You guys were playing like 25, 26 songs a night. So like Toronto shows, for example, I saw it back to back and it was like, they weren't completely different set lists, but it really kept it interesting, you know, to see you guys multiple times because you had this.
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[12:26] You had this log of, of songs that you could just carry around. Right. And Bobby is the master of doing that. He keeps track of everything and really works hard at making the set list different every night, as well as having the standards that you should be playing, but not having those standards be the same standard every night. Yeah yeah i'll tell you what doing this top 50 countdown what i did was i asked people to send in their top 20 lists and when i when i did all the math there was 121 different songs that were chosen so obviously i'm only counting the 50 but there's that many songs in your catalog that people fucking dig like that's you know that's got to be daunting in a certain way when you know There's B-sides and things like that that you guys might not have even played once outside of recording. Yeah, recording. Yeah.
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[13:27] Okay, so what do you say we give song number 16 a spin, Steve? That sounds great to me. All right, let's do it. We'll be back on the other side. Hey, this is Bob Nestanovich from Pavement. Thanks for listening. And now on with a countdown. 16 now.
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[20:31] Fillmore Jive, number 16 on the countdown.
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[20:35] It's the third song from Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain, behind Stop Breathing at 28 and Cut Your Hair at 21. So this song actually beats Cut Your Hair, which is, I don't know. Is that surprising? Is that surprising to you? No, I'd rather pick Fillmore Jive over Cut Your Hair. But, I mean, Cut Your Hair is the pop song. So yeah yeah that's why i was surprised it wouldn't be in the top five or something i was you know just looking at the spotify uh the spotify plays you know cut your hair is like way up there and bill more jive is not right right so is is it do you consider it like a deep cut like when you guys went to it on the most recent tour was it um was it a deeper cut in the bag of songs that you brought? Yeah, I say a deeper cut because I don't think we did it in 2010. And we hadn't done it for years in the 90s. I think we did it in 94 and maybe they did it with Gary too before me.
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[21:51] So I would say it's a deep cut live but in terms of records records you know for people to really enjoy but it's a pretty great number yeah pretty historic number and it really uh puts a nice end to that album yeah i think so yeah it leaves you wanting more for sure yes like in a good way you know not not like yeah okay i was like oh is that insulting thing um what.
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[22:24] Do you say we get back to film our job sorry i'm.
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[22:30] We recorded that, and I don't know if Stephen and I ever played that song except for when we recorded it in Manhattan at Walleye's Place. And then we played it a few times in 94, a handful of times, and didn't really play it again until this previous past couple of years. And it was always up. People loved it. Yeah, I was looking on Setlist FM, and it's like, Like, you guys played it 79 times in total, according to Setlist FM, but probably about 20 times this last tour, maybe something like that. Okay. And I got to tell you, I found it really interesting that you picked Billmore Jive, because it's the song that you're waiting a minute, almost a full minute before the drums come in. Yeah. Right? Right. And then it's that big cacophonous, you know, like I need to sleep with the with the cymbal crash. And yeah, the song really picks up steam at that point. Right now that.
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[23:39] OK, so that song, I think, is where Stephen kind of the producer or the engineer, Bryce Goggin, who. who mixed the album. We recorded it in a different place, but he mixed the album. He was giving Carl Blanc to make it as big as he wanted. Do all the tricks. Do all the production tricks. And the only thing was that there was this previous recording of the intro, like you're talking about, and I don't know if that was recorded at Bob's apartment in Hoboken or at Gary's, you know, uh, studio, um, um.
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[24:24] But they had that previous recording, which he thought was great.
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[24:28] But he wanted to have, you know, a different take for the rest of the song. So that's kind of how we did it. And he kind of, I know that if you could hear the raw track, you'd probably hear him saying, okay, now, you know, we're playing along. He's like, okay, now we're going to get really loud and get crazy. West, go crazy. And now we're going to go quiet. So there's no way I knew that song that well, well because we wouldn't have practiced it it's a long song it's yeah it's almost seven minutes right right it's a feel song and um i think he just kind of like talked me through it and it was just the two of us so there wasn't all that other you know instrumentation to play off of it was more just him talking singing and playing um and trying to get a i feel and it definitely got a feel good or bad it got a good it got a feel oh it's yeah it's got a great it's got a great feel to it i just i can remember going for walks when i discovered crooked rain like you know in 2000 or whenever it was uh i was way off the beaten track and um just walking around listening to crooked rain and it would get to that song and there was just i don't know there's just something about that cymbal crash into the into the you know the main thrust of the song and then bringing it down again you know as he's talking about the punks with spikes and and things like that yeah.
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[25:57] Just like he's kind of narrating uh narrating a music history for like a past couple decades up to that point and um you know making it kind of bringing out the history of it you know talking about the punks and the nightclubs and where he is you know it's not real you can't put your finger on it but you feel like you're being educated in a way about some weird world yeah i agree, yeah i mean doing this has been really fun because on this half you know we talk about the song and just getting people's impressions of what you know these songs are about out is fascinating is really fascinating because you know steve doesn't leave too many breadcrumb trails for you to figure things out it's it's just sort of um these cool phrases and cool little, you know vignettes almost and uh it's just really neat to hear what people think of them and i like like your take on, you know, going through a music history. That's, that's fabulous.
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[27:08] Yeah. Yeah. It was fun. Anything else you want to say about, uh, Fillmore Jive?
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[27:17] Um i love film or drive for its faults as for its um its feeling just as much, because like i said you know i don't think we did it more than once and of course you can always improve if you get a chance to take a test more than once right but you have to look at it that way i have to look at it that way and i listened to it today and i was like wow that's pretty great you know i can hear the things that i would change but um you know on my part not on okay anyone else's part but um you sometimes you just you just have to go with the flow and that's kind of what, being in pavement is and was about it's kind of going out there and and playing the songs and recording the songs and recording a lot and having a lot to throw away or to be on b-sides and um And then put the ones on the album that sound the best and live with the good and the bad, because a lot of times the mistakes are the happy mistakes. And people kind of endear themselves to that. Yeah, I think so. I think so. Happy mistakes is a good way to put it. Yeah. You got to have those happy mistakes. Yeah. Go away with a happy mistake is a great thing to feel when you hit the recorder. I didn't mean to do that, but that sounds awesome.
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[28:44] Yeah, isn't that what they say? When you mess up, you just do it again, and everybody thinks you're jamming. Yeah. Yeah, but, you know, the next time it doesn't have the same feel. And, you know, when you think about the different albums, like the last album, there was a lot of time put into making that album problem as really crisp and time oriented in time, you know, cleaned up a lot of the pavement sound. Right. And I've always said that. There's a good part to that because i really enjoy that album and the production that nigel did um, but you do miss a little bit of the soul of the band too agreed and then when you step back and you go yes but over the five or whatever albums we did they're all different and that's the difference in this album and it's still a pretty great album so i'm all all for it Yeah. So what does 24 bring you guys? You're going to South America.
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[29:55] Yes. When's the last time you played South America? 2010. We played South America. We played one or two shows. No, at least two shows there. And this time you're doing four or five, right? You were doing four shows, one big festival, and then three other cities and like three other countries and um it's like four shows in, six days or something so after that i don't know i think we're probably going to go into hibernation but and we'll see if we'll come out like the groundhog or not.
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[30:35] Well it's been awesome talking to you about film or jive and the rest uh steve you're amazing with your time that's um it really means a lot that you would do this so thanks so much well thank you jamie it's always a pleasure when i see you in person and talk to you on the phone and all of this zoom business too that's right yeah well thanks a lot talk to you soon right wash your hands.
jD is joined by Mike Hogan from the 3 songs podcast w/ Bob Nastanovich. Learn about the Meeting Malkmus origin story while Mike shares his Pavement origin story and dissects song seventeen on the countdown.
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[0:00] Previously on the Pavement Top 50.
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[0:02] So today we're talking all about song number 18 from the masterpiece Wowie Zowie. It's the absolutely gorgeous father to a sister of thought. Vish, what are your initial thoughts about this song? Well, you know, I was so happy that we landed on this as a song to talk about because I do love Wowie Zowie. I have a sense memory of picking it up when it came out i think the day it came out this is interesting it's a really fascinating song because in some ways it's super accessible uh musically uh it leans with the pedal steel and some of the other moves it leans towards kind of country music um i will say uh as i was pondering it i i mean i i know we are in a vacuum here of people who love pavement right and who love Stephen Malcomus, but as I was listening to this in preparation for our chat, I'm like, Malcomus is like an underrated everything.
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[1:04] Hey, this is Westy from the Rock and Roll Band Pavement, and you're listening to The Countdown.
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[1:12] Hey, it's J.D. here, back for another episode of our Top 50 Countdown for Seminole Indie Rock Band, Pavement. Week over week, we're going to countdown the 50 essential pavement tracks that you selected with your very own top 20 ballots. I then tabulated the results using an abacus and a four-slice toaster I had fashioned into a time machine. Now I pull the blinds of the time curtain. Yesterday is totally getting a do-over. How will your favorite song fare in the rankings? You'll need to tune in to find out. So there's that. This week I'm joined by Pavement superfan Mike fucking Hogan. How the hell are you, Mike? I'm doing good, JD. JD uh it's nice to talk to you yeah it's nice to talk to you too I've listened to you you know uh over the years with Bob on the on the pod and uh we've been lonesome for you yeah I was uh you know in advance of this I was like god when did we start that podcast and I looked the first episode was August of 2017 um and we did 177 episodes the last one being December of of, uh, 2022. And I think that was the only one we did that year too. I don't know. I haven't, I haven't checked, but yeah, we were pretty, we were pretty active, uh, for a few years with some breaks in between. Um, but, uh, but yeah, um, it was fun.
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[2:39] So will the podcast be dusted off at some point? Will we get the Pavement-esque reunion tour? That's kind of the open question. I wouldn't say no. We don't have any immediate plans. The last time I talked to Bob about it was probably about, I don't know, four or five months ago. And he said maybe after the new year. You know, I think we we really paused things because, you know, obviously Pavement was rehearsing and then touring and things were hectic. We actually had this I had this idea to do a different like tour diary podcast in every city. Yeah.
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[3:21] Like, you know, of course, the podcast that we did was very synchronous where we would talk back and forth. We would play songs but i was i had this idea where he would asynchronously record like five or ten minutes about like i'm in kansas city and here's my experience with kansas city and then we he'd pick a song that was kansas city based and i'd pick you know but it never it never ended up working out it would have been fun maybe damn that would have been great yeah maybe on the next reunion tour maybe the next reunion tour but yeah i think you know i mean between that and you know he's had some life changes i've had some life changes we kind of just were like let's take a pause let's um maybe start fresh you know after 177 episodes it's like how many different bands can you talk about that you haven't talked about in the first 176 so uh um you know i think if we came back we would probably you know might keep the same format but allow ourselves the opportunity to revisit and almost treat it as a fresh start. Hmm. That's interesting. You heard it here first, folks. No promises, you know, but no promises either way, really. Right. That's cool. It's, you know, you're saying there's a chance.
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[4:41] Cool. Well, let's get right into it. Let's talk about your pavement origin story. story? Boy, um, I think I first heard of pavement. Um, I wasn't early enough to get the first seven inch. Um, but I think maybe the first drag city seven inch, um, it was probably the first time I'd heard of them. I don't know if I even bought it at the time I was in that era. I was in college. I was at very active in the college radio station at Santa Clara University KSU. And I was a music director for a little while. And there, you know, obviously, Pavement was getting a bit of buzz. And I remember them just being this band that had put out a few singles. They were getting written up in zines. You know, there wasn't social media. So there wasn't any of that buzz at that time. And it was it was like unless you had someone that had a copy you you know It was almost impossible to even find in stores, So they had this just kind of air about them of like and and there were no photos of them There weren't even their names. It was just SM and spiral stairs, and it was just this like very.
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[6:02] Mysterious like who the hell are these guys and then little bits would come out where it was like Like, oh, you know, one of them worked at the Whitney as a as a as a guide. And they recorded in this in the studio in Stockton. And, you know, the the the drummer is the guy that runs the studio. He's just this old crazy dude. You know, it was just like little bits of information would kind of come out. And I think I think really what kind of hooked me was probably the 10 inch perfect sound forever. And then by the time Slandered and Enchanted came out, it was like I was full on waiting for it. And I think the first time I saw them, the only time I saw them until the reunion tour a couple years ago, was in San Francisco at the Kennel Club a week before Slandered and Enchanted came out.
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[6:56] Was released. And shit. Yes, because I worked at the radio station, we had an advanced copy. So I was I was like, vigorously listening to the record. And so totally prepared for the show. And it's funny, because I think it was written up in one of the papers, one of the San Francisco papers, because the buzz was already even big. Even though Matador was still a pretty small label at the time. It was like this local band, local ish band is kind of getting uh some attention and uh it was funny the show was sold out and gary was out front like shaking people's hands as they walked into the show like could not believe that everybody was there to see him you know he'd been trying for years and years to hit it big in the music industry and couldn't believe that these two weird college kids that came into his studio was like his venue for We're actually getting some level of success. So it was kind of cool.
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[7:59] Oh, very cool. Yeah. How was that show? It was, it was amazing. It was a little, um, ramshackle as some of their shows back then could have been. Um, but I just remember, you know, because I was so excited for it. Um, I just remember being like, odd, like, wow, this is great. You know? And then I never got a chance to see them again until they did the reunion tour. Uh, it was probably 30, a little over 30 years between my first and second pavement show that's hey you know what when you see them before slant it drops you're doing pretty good right like i like i think that's phenomenal i think the article in the paper said it would be like their 20th show that they played or something like that so it was certainly one of you know because before then they were just a recording band and you know they didn't it was you know all of the i think the earlier records were just the two of them plus gary uh and so they they sort of had to figure out like how are we as a band when we're playing out live and uh you know it was early enough that i think that i was still seeing some of that evolution of what pavement would become oh that is so fucking cool i you You know, I didn't get on board until very late, very late. So they were already broken up. Like, yeah.
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[9:23] So, yeah, I got on board very late. And it's just listening to all this kind of talk, which I've heard, you know, a lot. I've done a lot of these at this point, these interviews and listening to people's pavement origin stories. Uh, you know, there's a lot of people who came late, but the people who came early have really fantastic stories. Like, you know, the fact that, uh, there were a mystery, you know, and that's something when I interviewed spiral, he said they really, that was something that was really important to them. And in fact, he was disappointed when they sort of dropped the. Like he wished they could have kept going with the – I don't know how they would have done that. Played in lucha masks or something? I don't know. Daft Punk did it for how many years, right? Oh, that's a good point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Or the residents. I mean it had been done before. But yeah, that was certainly part of the mystique for me. And seeing them, like, wow, they're real people when I saw them live. It was like – this is the, you know, yeah, the reveal of the curtain.
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[10:31] But yeah, and that was why when slanted, I mean, perfect, perfect sound forever, too. But especially when slanted dropped, it was like felt very fresh, felt familiar, but totally different at the same time. And that's why in some ways, I think my experience of pavement is just naturally different from somebody that experienced them later when they already had this full body of work. And you could see you could see that progression because there was just this question of where were they going and what would they do next and um i can imagine the ep that came after was like oh my god these four songs are just amazing incredible like like and and it was uh.
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[11:19] Yeah it was interesting it was um a very exciting time and they were like a very important band for me in that, in that period of my life. I bet. So what, um, is your go-to record at this point? Do you have one or, I mean, I know that's a tough question because it probably changes week, week over week, but you know, just think about right now, what would you, if, if we get off the phone here and you want to just reminisce about some pavement, what are you going to throw? It's hard because, you know, I think as somebody who had that level of experience about like this mystique early on and the seven inches were and, you know, the early albums were really just so ingrained in my memory. Like, I almost don't need I listened to Slandered and Enchanted before our talk today. And it was probably the first time in a couple years that I'd listened to it. But it was like, I knew every one of those songs. So in intimately, I knew every note, every lyric, every, you know, Baba Baba, you know, like every little like, like, part of the songs in a way that the later albums.
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[12:38] I'm not as intimately familiar with. So when I listen to a later record, it's almost like hearing it fresh. And I can't distance myself from my experience of like Perfect Sound Forever back when it came out, or Slanded went back when it came out. But that said, I think if I were to just be like, I wanna put on a record, um well i mean watery domestic is probably my favorite piece of work that they did but it's only four songs so it's wrong but it's so fast yeah it just is over so quickly and i think i only had it on cd i only recently bought the the vinyl of it and i didn't realize that the little like you know that little like transitional piece i didn't realize it was at the end of a song i thought it was the intro of a song because i always just listened to the cd ah and it just went i never paid enough attention to it because i didn't listen to it on shuffle or anything um and so it was almost revelatory when i got it on vinyl i was like this is like the way it's supposed to be like and then i flipped the side over um so that must have been brain busting It was kind of weird. I thought that was the intro to the song, but it was really the outro.
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[14:04] Well, speaking of Pavement songs, should we get into the song that you're going to cover? Yeah, let's do it. All right. We'll be right back after listening to song number 17.
Track 1:
[14:19] Hey, this is Bob Nestanovich from Pavement. Thanks for listening. And now on with a countdown.
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[14:28] 17.
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[16:10] There you have it. Song number 17 is Zurich is Stained from the debut long play Slanted and Enchanted. Mike, is this song in fact slanted and or enchanted? Discuss. Yes, indeed. I love this song. This song, it really is. And it's sort of an oasis. I love where it appears on the record. it's coming straight out of the chaos of uh conduit for sale and right before the chaos of chelsea's little wrists and you get this like really light breezy but fast song i mean it's not a ballad it's not like here it is it is this breezy light almost feels like it would be.
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[17:03] At home on the velvet underground's third record you know there's this mood to it that feels, in some ways different from earlier in the record and even what comes a little later where there's a lot of like fuzz and noise it's just this light little break um that's almost this perfect little slice of i don't even know how long it is but i'm guessing it's less than two minutes it's It's just, uh, yeah, it's, it's in and out. Yeah. It's in and out. And, and the whole time Malchmus, I don't think really pauses the vocals for more than a second or two. It's just beautiful little instrumentation with his vocals kind of just strung throughout it all. Yeah. I'm singing it in my head right now. It's right. It's, it's, uh.
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[17:59] I mean, you know, and it's like the chorus keeps coming back and then he ends it with the, you know, like just it is a perfect little song. It's just a perfect slice of, and if I were to play somebody that had never heard Pavement, if I would play them, what is from a songwriting perspective, what is a quintessential Pavement song? You know, there are probably a few others that might come to mind, but this is like one of those like sleeper cuts. It's just such a perfect little song that doesn't get the buzz of like the Summer Babes or, you know, some of the more hit songs. I just I love it, though. yeah it's a it's a it's a really great song it's very different from the rest of the record for for sure it like maybe even it's like more at home on crooked rain crooked rain like you know like just sonically but uh but you're right where it hits in the record is is just is just right and And it's a refreshing little wafer, you know, before the next meal. Yes. Or the next course.
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[19:22] Yeah. I think because of where it hits in the record, it feels mellower, you know? Feels in contrast to some of the other songs that come before and after it. What did you say is right before it? Conduit? Conduit, yeah. Okay, yeah. So it comes out of that frantic chaos into this breezy little, there's like the twang guitar, there's no fuzz, it's just this kind of light, catchy little, very short song, song, but that feels fully formed. It's not one of those songs that feels too short. You know, it just is like an idea song. Like, like there's a lot of those on Wowie, for example. Right. Yeah. Yes. Right. Or, you know, I mean, I can even think of like Emmett Rhodes lullaby. I don't know if you know that song. It's, it's, it was used. I first heard of it in, um, I think Royal Tenenbaums, one of those Wes Anderson movies, but, um, it's a beautiful little song and it's It's only a minute long, and it just feels too short. Zyrka's Dane does not like that. It just feels fully formed, even though it's only a minute in, I don't know, 50 or something. Yeah.
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[20:41] What was I going to ask you? I was going to ask you if you've got a line on what it's potentially about. And if not, that's cool. I don't know. No, I mean, I miss Malcolm. This is hard. I, I kind of try not to read in too much to the lyrics because I also don't really trust the lyrics. Um, if you know what I mean, like if the lyric sheet, um, is often or not, I wouldn't say often, sometimes the lyric sheet, Like I'm looking at the lyric sheet right now that is included in the vinyl of Slanted and Enchanted. And the one that stands out is not necessarily Zerka Stain, but on Loretta's scars, you know, the, the line from now on, I can see the sun is always what I knew it to be. But the lyric sheet says from now on, I can see the slums. And so. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I sort of, especially with Mouthmasters lyrics, I try not to read too much into it. It's just this like, kind of catchy thing.
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[22:06] You know, like a jumble of words that make sense within the music of the song. I call it word salad. Yeah. I call it word salad. You get a tasty morsel in every forkful. You know, there's a little bit of everything. There's imagery. There's, you know, these slant rhymes sometimes. Really cool phrases. Memorable phrases. Yes. I almost feel like, you know, I can't sing it strong enough is a great line. I don't know what it's about. Right. And I don't even know if it's about, I mean, the song is Zurich is Stained. I don't even think it's about Zurich. There's no other sort of mention of it. Yeah, I mean, right. Like, it's okay. It's not your fault. Cool. cool.
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[22:57] Whose fault is it? Do we even care? I don't know. I just try not to. I try not to read too much into it. And I think one of the one of the things that I noticed and what I've always kind of tried to avoid when I would talk music, you know, the songs when when Bob and I did three songs, but is I would, I would try and talk about the music and not try to analyze the lyrics so much, unless there was something that really like, like stood out and grabbed me and resonated with me. Um, but yeah, I think, I think Malchmus is especially at this phrase, you know, phase of his career. I felt like each line was its kind of own self-contained mini story and often didn't even like match or connect or follow the line that came after it um so to your question what's the song about i have no idea that's cool well i'll pivot completely then and we'll go back to three songs for a minute how the fuck you know did you and bob connect yeah this is this is kind of.
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[24:09] Obviously, I was a fan for a while, for a long time. And I'm thinking back in 2013, I moved to New York City. And I started working at a horse racing company. Okay. And actually, it probably was 2014 that I moved there in 2013. Probably a year later, I got the job at the horse racing company. And as I'm sure you know, Bob has always been interested in horse racing. And what he was, I was based in New York, he was based in Iowa. But he was the local representative for the Iowa racetrack for the company that I worked for. And so when I get there and I see, you know, Bob Nastanovich, I'm like, hey, man, what's up? And we started working together for work. And then I was at some point I was like, you know, I'm familiar with your band, Bandza, you know, because I was also certainly familiar with the Silver Jews as well. So good. And so we just became friends. I worked there. I think Bob got laid off because horse racing is not really a growth industry. So Bob got laid off. And then a year or two later, I got laid off.
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[25:37] But we were always friendly friends. I'd consider us friends. We became friends, even though we lived a couple thousand miles away from each other. Yeah um and after i got laid off in 2017 i was like hey i got some time now you want you want you want to do a music podcast um and he was like yeah sure and so we threw around ideas of like what it would be about and how we would approach it what we would call it all of that and he suggested three songs and we just kind of bandied back and forth uh you know hey this is this is is sort of how i want to do it i just want it to be like two friends talking music and sharing music that we like with each other kind of like the way it was back when pavement started when you just couldn't find things online there was no online you just had to hear about it because somebody you knew was into it and be like oh you got to check this out you'll love it so that was sort of the spirit of it we started i think our first episode i know our first episode i didn't have a mixer it sounds like shit you couldn't really hear bob bob couldn't hear the songs um but i just left it up anyway because they were good songs and it just it was uh a good a good chat um and then by episode two i got i bought a mixer and a mic and uh we're we're off.
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[27:00] Game changed. Game changed. And we, yeah, we were friends for probably two and a half years before we did the podcast. Yeah. And then we did the podcast for probably another two and a half years before we met in person. So I knew Bob and was friends with Bob for five years before we'd ever. And you guys did an episode together in person, right? We did one episode in person. Yeah. Okay. I remember listening to that one. Yeah. I mean, I've listened to a bunch, but I specifically remember that one. Yeah. It was sort of weird because we're doing this with video. I can see you, so you can see me. I can see when you're ready to talk. We didn't do any of that. Bob didn't want to be on camera. He felt uncomfortable. He's out on his back porch. He's just running around. You'd hear the dog in the background. So I didn't know when he was done talking, and we would sometimes talk over each other. So doing the one in person when we could actually see each other's cues was a little strange, to be honest. Because we had done, I don't know, at that point, two and a half years worth, probably close to 100 episodes. That's what I was going to say. I feel like it was in the 90s, that episode. But I might be wrong. Yeah. That was probably after. Because we did the 100th episode.
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[28:21] Yeah, we did the 100th episode, which was the David Berman Silver Jews focus one. Which is still our most listened to episode. That was the episode 100. And I know we recorded it a few months before we met in person. So, yeah, we probably did 110 before we'd ever met in person. And the reason we met, the way we met, was Bob came to Portland in January of 2020 because there was a tribute show to David and to Silver Juice. And so Bob, so we, you know, I think there were a number of people that played, including.
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[29:02] Uh, um, the woman, Rebecca from the Spananes, um, played a set. Um, there were a few others that played, but the headliner was, uh, just a duo of Bob and Steven playing, playing silver juice stuff, which, and you can find it, you can find the recording on, um, on YouTube and famously one of it's great. It's actually worth seeking out because, you know, it was, it was cool to see. Um but someone in the comments was like this sounds like shit and then bob replied and he's like sorry man i can give you your five bucks back or whatever and and then the guy was like oh i'm really sorry i didn't mean to you know it's he's like that is spectacular yeah so it's it's almost it's worth watching for sure but it's almost worth seeking out to to find that little nugget of, of exchange, um, in, in the, in the YouTube comments section. But, um, but yeah, that was the first time we met. Did you parlay that meeting into, uh, an opportunity to meet with SM? I did. Yes. So this is, this is sort of my meeting mouth story. Although I actually met him in the nineties briefly at Satyricon when, um, the Geraldine Fibbers were playing. He.
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[30:23] He lived in Portland at that point, and I think I was still down in Eugene, but I was and have been good friends with Nels Klein for years and years and years, put out some of his records back in the 90s. And then he got into the Geraldine Fibbers and was playing guitar with them. They played a show at Satyricon and I was hanging out with Nels and Stephen came to the show. And so I met him briefly then in the 90s. um but then yeah flash forward 20 plus years january 2020 so that the the day before the show.
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[30:57] That they played uh with a tribute to to david is the day that bob and i hung out we recorded the podcast that day we went and had lunch we had dinner i just hung we just hung out together all day. And then, um, I was going to head home and he's like, ah, just crash, crash in Stephen's basement. There's, there's two couches there. I I'm on one, you can crash on the other. And I was like, yeah, okay, no problem. And so, um, we got back there, I don't know, around midnight, everybody was asleep. We'd go down to the basement and, you know, and then I get up around eight or so to go to leave and um the basement stairs were right at the top uh or the top of the stairs was right at the kitchen and so um i went there was a bathroom in the basement i went and used the bathroom and i was about like putting my shoes on and about to leave and steven's wife jessica comes to the top of the stairs and is like bob's bob and i'm standing there, and I just say like I didn't know what to say of course I'm like uh, Bob's friend and she's like oh Bob had a sleepover and I was like uh yeah hi I'm Mike so um.
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[32:17] So then, and, and so that was sort of a strange little, and then I got, you know, got my shoes and my jacket and I'm like going up the stairs and what at the top of the stairs, it's like you see the full kitchen and, you know, Jessica and Steve's daughters were in the kitchen having breakfast. And I'm like, um, nice to meet you. Thanks for letting me crash here. Even though you didn't know I was crashing here. here um uh you know like hey i'm mike and just like really sheepishly like trying to leave and the back door is right kind of at you go to the top of the stairs and to the right is the kitchen and straight ahead is the the side door um that goes to their their driveway and i'm like trying to open the side door and jessica's like it kind of sticks a little bit do you want me to help and And I'm like, oh, I think I got it. And so I'm like fiddling with the doorknob for like 10 seconds, which felt like two minutes. And then I finally got it opened and it was like, all right, thanks. See you later.
Track 3:
[33:25] And then later that day, you know, Bob said, come on over. We'll hang out. And so I came over later that day and then met them in earnest. And they were very sweet. She was very sweet. You know, like, I'm really sorry. And I was here and she's like, don't worry about it. And then Steven was there. And he was like, they were just kind of.
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[33:43] Prepping for the show later that evening and um he was very nice he actually gave me he just finished reading lou reed's a biography on lou reed he's like i'm looking for on it and i was like yeah sure so i've got steve's steven's copy of uh the lou reed biography up in my my bedroom.
Track 3:
[34:01] Somewhere that's spectacular i think that's really cool yeah yeah borrowing books from steven malcolm any other uh chances that you met him or um yeah i mean i've met him briefly a few other times you know bob um would come to town when pavement was rehearsing i think they rehearsed for about almost a month before they did their their first reunion tour in 2022 22 um yeah bob bob stayed here for probably maybe not quite a month maybe three or four weeks two or three weeks and um you know i would not every day but regularly after they were done i would you know hang out with bob a little bit and we'd get some dinner or whatever and one night there was some band playing and um steven and jessica went and we tagged along and so i've met him a number of times we're i would say we're friendly but we're not friends i don't have his number he doesn't have mine you know if if i were to run into him around town which um happens now and then i'd probably feel too shy to say hi but um if i did i think he would know who i was and be okay with it that's that's.
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[35:19] Pretty neat though i would say yeah you know i mean this is one of the things about portland it's like a it's a it's kind of a small town it's a big big enough city but it's also kind of a small town yeah well i want to share something with you because it's kind of funny uh you know it's in the lore of meeting malchmus i reached out to bob when i first conceived of this podcast in the fall of uh 2018 and asked him if he wanted to co-host meeting malchmus and this is the you know this is the premise and blah blah blah and uh i didn't have it all nailed down at that point um but i gave him the i gave him the highlights and he's He's like, he responded back and he's like, sounds fun, but I'm already doing a podcast. And I was like, tell me what it's called. And that's how I found out about your podcast.
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[36:11] But that's also how Bob ended up not on Needy Malcomus, if he would have done it, if he would have done it. Well, so I apologize because I feel like I'm the reason why he said no. Although I would have to check. There were times, and I think that the fall of 2018 was one of those times. There were times, and if you look back through our episodes, you'll see big gaps, and it's often.
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[36:37] Associated with life events. And my, my daughter was born in July of 2018. And I think right after that, we actually did probably a six month pause. Cause I was like, I don't, I'm working. And, uh, you know, I mean, I took a little time off, you know, I'm not sleeping yet. Like, uh, as priorities go, I don't know if I'll have time to talk to you for a little bit. So you, even though Bob, I mean, and I appreciate Bob being loyal to me. It was probably during a pause, and he probably could have said, hey, I've got the time right now. I am doing a podcast, but we're not doing it right away. That's funny. Yeah. So do you have anything you want to plug other than three songs at this point? What's the episode that people should grab of three songs aside from the Berman episode? Episode like what would you say is is a standout episode that gives you a real sense of what the show is well okay so those are almost two questions because.
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[37:41] The standout episode of what the show is this the premise of the show was bob would bring three songs to play to me that he thought i maybe didn't know uh and might like and i would do the same for him um and so those some of those early episodes where we were still finding our footing were a lot of the songs where it was like, Oh my God, I fucking love this song so much. Like the X is state of shock. Um, you know, like some, some of these go between songs or some of these like old blue songs that, that just like really resonated with me in a strong way. I was like, I, you know, I don't know if you know this, but like, I want to play it for you and just get your reaction. Um, so, you know, I don't know. I, don't have the list in front of me and my screen saver went to sleep. So I, you know, I'm not even going to log in to figure out what some of those early episodes were. Um, but, uh, you know, I, what I, what I also tried to do, and it was never a spoken thing between Bob and I, but I, I was inherently conscious of the fact we were two middle-aged white dudes.
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[38:54] Talking music and i wanted to make sure we weren't just talking about white dudes no it is very if you haven't listened to it listen to it but there are there are like i'm just going i'm making this up but like throat singers and or did you have a throat singer uh i don't know if we went quite that wild but we would do yeah it's everywhere though it's like you guys you guys covered the spectrum yes music all kinds of genres all kinds of countries we try we tried to go all around the world you know and we tried to also be very inclusive of all genders and you know because again it's just two white dudes talking we didn't want it to be like very focused on on like western western music you know that said we didn't want to make it so obscure that people would be like, there's not anything here for me, you know, like, we would try to try to walk that line where it would still be fun and worthwhile. And, you know, I think if nothing else, it was just, I hope that people came because they liked Bob, and they liked me, and they felt like they were listening in to friends.
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[40:08] And they felt like they were one of of our friends that were experiencing this music and experiencing this conversation at the same time. Um, I hope it was more that and not like, Oh, I'm going to list, listen because today they're talking about, you know, Sebado or whatever. I'm going to listen because today they're talking about some band I know, and I want to hear what they say.
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[40:30] I, I, I was, I hope we built enough of an audience that liked us and trusted us. So that's it. It's the trust piece. It's like you guys were sort of a modern day equivalent of like the record shop dude, you know, that trusted guy that, you know, Gary Gal.
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[40:51] It's like, hey, I saw you buying these two records. Yeah. You're probably going to totally dig this. Yes. Yes. Tastemakers. I hope, I hope the unjudgmental record shop dude that wasn't like, oh, I can't believe you bought this.
Track 3:
[41:06] No, I don't mean that. You know some of those types, right? Yeah. We wanted it to be, you know, I also didn't want it to be a situation where I was, you know, ripping on someone's art. Or if I didn't like it, I would just be like, oh, it's maybe not my thing. But most of the time, everything Bob played for me, I was into or found some sort of way to resonate with.
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[41:32] But aside from that, I mean, I'm not doing any podcasts. I don't have anything to plug. I mean, I think those that have listened to the show know that Bob runs a small record label. And back in the 90s, I ran a small record label called Little Brother Records. Records um you know uh i've got a few of the old back stock and maybe i'll send me your address i'll send you a little package of some of the old records i put out um oh wow cool yeah um you know and it's uh so but i wouldn't say i have that to plug it's just part of my it's part of my origin story yeah absolutely well i really want to thank you for taking this time with me today it's been a blast talking to you dude yeah appreciate it thanks for thinking of me thanks for including me no you're you're near top of the list when i started thinking of like people that i solicited to like on my twitter and stuff like that uh i i asked basically anybody and everybody but then i also had like the celebrity wing you know and uh you appeared on that list so i i company you're in.
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[42:42] I don't know if I would even come close to listing me as a celebrity, but I appreciate the thought. In the podcast, in the indie rock podcast world, I would see you. If you want to say our top episode, which is the Berman one, that got maybe 12,000 listens, if that makes me a celebrity. I mean, you know. If you had 12,000 people in your living room listening to you talk, that would be a pretty fucking big deal. That's true. I don't know if I'd have enough food for them.
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[43:14] I had a friend tell me that early on in podcasting. They were, you know, they were like, because I was like, I don't know. I don't want to put myself out there and see the numbers. And they were like, if you have 12 people that listen, like, that's pretty cool. Well, I think more than that, but the sense that you, that I get is that you approach it the way that Bob and I approached it. And, um, you know, I had the advantage of kind of tagging along to a, a, a celebrity.
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[43:43] And so Bob's name helped bring in listeners, but we, we didn't, we didn't do any promotion other than maybe, you know, little like, like Twitter promotion. We didn't, we didn't solicit any, um, sponsors or anything like that. We didn't ever want to try and find a way to monetize it because if we were doing that, it wouldn't be what I wanted. Yeah. And it wouldn't be fun. It wouldn't be, it would be like work, you know, and I wanted it to be my release for like, here's an opportunity to talk to my friend about music. Um, and maybe, you know, maybe we will find an audience you know if you're if you're authentic and you're doing something for the right reasons often the audience finds you it may take a little while um but that's i think that's also about the the way i look at a lot of the music that i like you know bands like sonic youth weren't you know or or the x is another huge band that i just have loved for their whole career they're not worried about is it going to sell or whatever and they just they find the audience eventually.
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[44:52] Yeah i would say i would say authenticity is a is a reasonable place to start from, yeah that's the best i can do yeah yeah hey again thanks so much and uh wash your goddamn hands.
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[45:11] Thanks for listening to Meeting Malcomus, a pavement podcast where we count down the top 50 pavement tracks as selected by you. If you've got questions or concerns, please shoot me an email. JD at Meeting Malcomus dot com.
This week on the show jD welcomes Vish from his own Kreative Kontrol, if you haven't checked it out get after it!
Vish discusses song 18 and shares his Pavement origin story.
Transcript:
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[0:00] Previously on the Pavement Top 50.
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[0:02] This week we're going deep on Box Elder. How are you feeling about song number 19, Kyra, from the COWI? I fucking love Box Elder so much. It's a great song. It's one of the earlier Pavement songs. I think it's a very early Pavement song, which is cool. And it's one that really holds up.
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[0:25] I think, too. you. Hey, this is Westy from the Rock and Roll Band Pavement, and you're listening to The Countdown.
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[0:34] Hey, it's JD here, back for another episode of our Top 50 Countdown for Seminole Indie Rock Band Pavement. Week over week, we're going to count down the 50 essential pavement tracks that you selected with your very own top 20 ballads. I then tabulated the results using an abacus, a wet towel, and some scrawny kid from 10th grade gym class. How will your favorite songs fare in the rankings? You'll need to tune in to find out. So there's that. This week I'm joined by Pavement superfan Vish from Creative Control with Vish Khanna. Dude, thanks for taking some time to do this. It means a lot. How the hell are you doing? I'm well, JD. Thanks for having me on your show. How are you doing? I'm great today. It's a little overcast here, but it's about five degrees so i'm gonna go for a walk later and uh.
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[1:24] And that's a, that's, those are good times for me. Very nice. That's good. Going outside. Can't beat it. Yeah. No, you can't at all. Well, let's not beat around the bush, speaking of beat it, and get right into your Pavement Origins story.
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[1:38] Talk to me about that, Vish. Well, I was trying to, you know, I knew I was coming on your show, so I figured I should try to ponder this, you know, and I, I was trying to remember. Remember, I think I first came upon the band when I read about them in Spin Magazine, like, I think before Crooked Rain came out. And I don't know what it was about that piece. This is right around the time I started getting to go to record stores. You know, I'm, what would I have been then? I would have been 15, 16. Some of us were driving so we could leave Cambridge, Ontario, where I'm from, and we could go to Kitchener and Waterloo and Toronto. They had the cooler record stores those were like uh college university towns so then we started going to record stores and then you start talking to the record store people and they tell you what they like and you respect them because they're your surrogate parents so somebody somebody somewhere along the line told me about pavement i i'm pretty sure it was the spin magazine article that i was i started devouring more and more music journalism and i think it was that so i remember owning uh slanted and enchanted and also uh the record store had the trigger cut single so i think i bought both things and i'm fairly certain about both things and uh i will say that that first single got me completely obsessed with their singles um because i think they're.
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[3:07] I don't know, they're one of the greatest treasure troves of any band I can think of. I know you've probably talked about this with others, but I really value Pavement B-Sides. Like, I wasn't that surprised. I mean, I was surprised that Harness Your Hopes went kind of bonkers recently, but like, I'm not surprised. Like, Pavement B-Sides, I know some of them better than I know the album songs, to be honest with you. I just became so obsessed with how great, like, the the quality of their B-sides really spoke to me. And then, yeah, that's one of the, and then I feel like that was a gateway into like, what is Silver Jews? Like, why is this, what is Silver Jews in the pavement section? What is it? Oh, it's a, it's a project. Oh, there's Bob and Steve on the back of the album covers. So they're in this, I guess. And so, yeah, the B-side alternate pavement universe if you will really spoke to me and still does uh i find myself uh kind of you know mumbling song lyrics and and tunes and melodies from you know humming them from from all the b-side so yeah i i would i would position myself that way as someone who i get a little obsessive so it wasn't just the album uh the albums it was like i want to get all the singles so i owned every single.
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[4:24] On mostly on compact disc when i was coming up of age and now i've got them all on actually you know what i ordered i ordered that thing that you ordered the box that i ordered the singles box that i have a bunch of them but i was like what the hell i'm gonna do it so the book looks good yeah everything about it looks good i love pavement so uh i just thought i would get that too and uh yeah i think that's pretty much it that's where i discovered them and then of course they blew up uh you know they're one of those bands that all your cool uh heroes were talking talking about before you even heard them you know so you'd read a interview with somebody you liked and they'd mention pavements you're like what is this pavement so really have a time and place for me word of mouth and then actually digging in i have still a sense memory of playing slanted and enchanted and hearing summer babe and you're just like what the hell so yeah i'd say that's that that that's that's got to be it i think that's it and you got to be there for the release of watery then did you as somebody who was like sort of ep and single obsessed did you pick that up when it came out i did i did pick it up i don't know if i got it right when it came out i can't say that for sure because i feel like i still came to them a little bit later um because i'm sure they were that article was 93 like i don't think it was about slanted it was just mentioned so but i got it yeah and as you may have heard me talk about it's yeah it's my it's like my favorite thing, really, in some ways. I love, and yeah, I miss Gary Young.
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[5:51] I never got to meet or talk to Gary Young, but yeah, the drumming as a drummer as well, as a budding drummer, like hearing Gary's playing, that had a huge influence on me too. So yeah, that era. Put your finger on what it is, isn't it?
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[6:06] Like, what it is about Gary's drumming. I love Westy. I love him. He's a great guy, and he's a great drummer. But there's something about Gary. There's something about the looseness and the showmanship of people like Gary Young. I would say here in Canada, we have Mark Gaudette, who was in Eric's trip, and his drumming, too. Like, it's punk rock, but it's a bit more technical. And it's precise, but it's loose. And it just has it. He's making an instrument. you know they have their own voice i suppose as drummers they have their own like you hear it and you're like oh that's that's that's either gary or as i mentioned mark for two examples uh or it's someone copying them you know it's someone someone kind of ripping them off so i certainly was of this learning how to play the instrument and getting into some really amazing drummers at the time uh just because i didn't take drum lessons i would just listen to things or go see bands and And certain people and their drumming had a huge impact on me. And certainly early pavement drumming, you know, I think it's an underrated facet of that band. Did you get a chance to see the Gary Dock?
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[7:18] No, you know what? I haven't seen that doc. That's a good call. I've been rather swamped of late and I need to do that. Have you seen it? Yeah, it's really, it's, it's pretty fabulous. Yeah, I can imagine. You're right. I should, I don't know. I'm at a thing where I got to do so much and I process so much information and music and I can't keep up with everything. So yeah, I saw it come through and I was like, yeah, I will watch that eventually. And then before you know it, I don't think I'm alone in this where there's just so much stuff to consume, but yeah, good Good call. Good call. I'll try to track it down on, I don't know if it's on a thing, a service or whatever, a streaming service, but I'll try and watch that. Yeah, I think it is because I don't know how I would have seen it. I forgot. Yeah. Um, when, when did you finally get to, uh, see them live or did you see them live in the original sort of run? I saw them for the first time in Barrie, Ontario at Lollapalooza in 1995. This was the. Wow. Lollapalooza curated by Sonic Youth.
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[8:18] So also on the bill was, it was supposed to be Sinead, or sorry, it was supposed, yeah, it was supposed to be Sinead O'Connor, but I think I attended the first show that she couldn't play because she was pregnant. And so Elastica filled in, but the day was like a mighty, mighty Boston's first time I got to see the Jesus lizard. Blizzard, uh, uh, Pavement obviously played during the day, uh, Hole played. Beck was on the lineup too, wasn't he? Yeah, I saw Beck play two sets, one on the main stage, uh, this was just ahead, uh, ahead of Odile coming up, and, um, he also did a side stage, uh, performance where I actually spoke to him, he, he came down and, uh, signed autographs, so he signed, I don't know where it is but he signed my Lollapalooza ticket stub and I asked him I actually I think I, I tripped him out a little because I'd heard that he was going to be collaborating with a Toronto musician. And when I mentioned it, he was like, oh, yeah, we have been talking about that. Like he was I kind of nardwired him.
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[9:23] I didn't mean it was just a rumor. I just said it. And he was like, oh, yeah, we were talking about that. So anyway. Yeah. So, yeah. And the Far Side played and Moby played and all sorts of amazing eclectic. Yeah. Yeah, Cypress Hill was one of the headliners. Bob Nastanovich, when he was on my show, I did a little documentary about Bright in the Corners. And he talked extensively about their experiences with some of the artists and their experiences playing Lollapalooza. And Bob's amazing innovation of suggesting that instead of getting a bus, they would each get minivans. He got a great deal in some rental minivans and that way they could play and then just drive ahead to the show and not worry about the gear and all that stuff and and and they could kind of travel at their leisure and uh yeah anyway so Lollapalooza 95 is the first show then I saw them at the Phoenix in Toronto for the Bright in the Corners tour and then I saw them play uh you remember the cool house and the, sorry, for those wondering in Toronto.
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[10:33] There was a venue and it had two rooms. It was called the Warehouse. And then beside it was something called the Government, a smaller room. And then the Warehouse became, it was like the RPM Warehouse or something like that. That's right. And then it changed names. It was the Cool House, but I think the Government was still there. So for Terror Twilight, as I recall, Pavement played the Government. So the smaller room on that tour. So I saw them there. And then I saw them on Toronto Island on the first reunion tour with the Broken Social scene.
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[11:08] And I think that's the last time I was invited or I was supposed to go see them in Austin, Texas. And Bob hooked me up. And I think I might have even been able to attend the Austin City Limits taping. But unfortunately, I couldn't make it at the last minute. So that was a bit of a bummer. But I regret it. But, you know, it was weird, still weird pandemic times then. And I, I think there was also other stuff going on. So I didn't get to see them on this current reunion, but it still seems to be going as we're speaking. So who knows?
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[11:42] Maybe I can see them somehow. now yeah yeah and we are recording this in early april so yeah there's we're not uh that's not a scoop people just in case you're listening to this in october and you're like oh christ they're coming back um they may they very may well be i just edited the bob episode and you know i sort of teased him because he's like we're done after south america and i was like come on come on yeah i'll believe you're done when i when when you're done yeah but um enough about me back to you uh i'm curious about the lola performance like so you got to see them in a government isn't intimate but it's nice um and then you got to see them in um lollapalooza in front of a big crowd what do you think of the the festival version of pavement well i mean obviously it's well documented that they didn't have the best time on that tour on some level uh in slow century there's obviously the the fracas uh you know uh where people are throwing mud at them and all sorts of a rock at steven actually uh you know i i was a kid i mean that was sensory overload i i was just going to how old was I? So 95 I was had I even turned.
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[13:08] Yeah, I was not even, what was I, seven, 16 or something like that? I don't know. I was not an old, I was young. You were 76? No, wait a minute. Yeah, I was 17. So I was born, no, I was born in 77. So I hadn't yet turned 18. So I was 17. And yeah, it was just, that was a bonkers year, to be honest with you. That summer, I went to everything. I went to so many festivals.
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[13:31] For all my bellyaching about my parents not letting me do stuff, they let me do a lot of stuff that summer so uh yeah i don't i think i was just overwhelmed by how many people were surrounding me and and and i got up as close as i could for pavement um and we got up really close like seeing the jesus lizard was a bit i love the jesus lizard already at that point i just love them and to see them was like they were larger than life and you know yeah for those who've never seen them or footage of them at that point, Yao would come into the crowd, you know, he would leap off the stage and crowd surf and all that kind of stuff and sing while he was doing it. So it was very immersive. And then Pavement, relatively the opposite, you know, they're on stage and the songs are great and they played well, as I recall. But on some level, I remember just making a point of getting up as close as possible and trying not to, at the same time, you know, be conscious of not bothering people as you move your way up, you know, because I was kind of annoyed at everyone running around and pushing their way forward and all that stuff. So, uh... Never made sense to me. Yeah, it just... That's my main memory of just, like, trying to... I was probably... For the Jesus Lizard and Pavement, I was probably... That was the closest I was probably, uh, to the stage. And, uh... And then otherwise, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I have...
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[14:57] I have a real sense memory of the Phoenix show for Bright in the Corners for a few reasons. And I've talked about them with Bob, at least.
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[15:05] Bob did an interpolation of a Cool Keith song, which I just, I was like, oh, I didn't know people knew about Cool Keith. Like I had only started listening to Cool Keith at that time. And he did. I have no clue. blue cool keith is a a really uh innovative uh underground hip-hop superstar he was in a group called ultra magnetic mcs and then he went solo as dr octagon and as cool keith has all these pseudonyms and uh to be precise uh and oh yeah black elvis like he had all these cool names so to be precise i believe as i recall bob was quoting dr the dr octagon project and he just did it in the middle of a song and then also the other thing that occurred to me and it's sort of relevant to the song today is during uh stereo when steven malcolm is saying the lines about getty lee and his voice being so high he shot his voice up super high like a comically high effect how did it get so like just pitch perfect super high i think it's i think it's documented in a much music interview that they did that day or whatever, like while they were in town. And then obviously afterwards, they interspersed some live footage of the band playing.
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[16:26] And Stephen singing, you know, on this song that we're here to talk about today is so remarkable to me. And I remember that I had this sense memory of him singing that and thinking it was very amusing. I thought it was more amusing than impressive at the time. but over over time as i um have come to value steven's singing voice and his range and his ability, And just instincts as a singer, I view it as more impressive now than, I still think it's funny because I think he's got a comical element to his choices and certainly live anything can happen, but they were just, I think that Bright in the Corner show is the, it's certainly one of the best shows I've ever seen. So I would also say it's one of the, if not the, it was the best time I saw Pavement probably. Oh, that's a great venue. That's what I, that's, I think the Phoenix is phenomenal. I don't want to discount the reunion show I saw because I think with age and time away from each other, they actually have, I don't know, I don't know how many reunion shows you've seen, but often I find that these bands that, particularly for us, you know, the bands around in the 90s, when they come back, they're better. Yeah. They seem more at ease with themselves as people and as players.
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[17:45] And so the absence, I don't know what it is. They just seem more relaxed. And I think when you're more relaxed, you play better. I think 20-something angst, we'll call it. I think if you're not relaxed with each other, you don't play as well. You're just a little uptight. And then as you sort of resign yourself to, well, not resign yourself, but as you sort of get, yeah, you let go of things. I guess that is a way of putting it. You kind of let go of any little grudges and you don't have that angst, whether it's your own or whether it's about yourself or whether it's interpersonal. And I think you just play better. So when I saw the Jesus Lizard on the reunion tour, having seen them several times in the 90s, I just was like, I think they're better. You know, they might be better. better and pavement as i recall from the toronto island show it felt good they played so well you know together um but up until that point yeah i would say that bright in the corners show i saw at.
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[18:46] The phoenix in toronto was just like they were just on fire it was brilliant so yeah cool yeah well before we get into song number 18 i gotta ask you as one of the only people i know that has interviewed Mark Eibold, the reclusive Mark Eibold, how the hell did you do it? And that interview, by the way, was phenomenal. It was great.
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[19:09] Well, that's very kind of you to say. I have to draw back on my memory for this. So the occasion was the Terror Twilight reissue from a year or two or a couple of years ago, whenever it was. Yeah, who knows? And like you, I think my social entry point into this band is Bob Mstanovich.
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[19:32] Absolutely. So Bob is, uh, I've gone on record saying this to others. I think I said it maybe to him during our terror twilight discussion. Bob is the greatest podcast guest of all time. You don't even have to ask him a question and he starts. He's so funny and he's so frank and he says things that I surprised he might say. I love him so much and he's been very kind to me over the years as well. I first spoke with Bob, uh around the time of that reunion uh tour um uh and so what was that 2009 10 thank you very much yeah sorry i think the jesus lizard was 2009 so yeah i spoke to bob around that period and then we've maintained contact basically ever since that was for my college radio show actually and then so that was here in toronto yes that's right yeah well i lived when i was living in ontario at at the time. Um, I had a college radio show and would play some pavement and Bob was a guest on that show. And he's, and I probably wrote a magazine article for exclaim magazine as well. That's what I do and used to do more often. Anyway. Um.
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[20:43] Yeah. So the Tara Twilight thing came about by this point, Bob and I had, he'd been on my podcast a few times. And so I just, I'm sure I went through the proper channels to get, try to figure out the interview and get the music and the, and you know, all the assets and all that. But Bob, I think I was like, Bob, like, can we get everyone? Let's just get everyone on the show. Probably like you have done, like you just, you know, you're, you're trying to do this now. You're trying to talk to as many of the members as you possibly can. Absolutely. And in the loop. So, yeah, you know, I'm emailing Stephen and I think I texted Stephen because, you know, he wasn't responding.
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[21:22] And so we sort of landed on Westy and Bob and Mark and then Jesper, who was involved in the reissue for Matador, was going to take part. And then at the day of, Mark couldn't do it. He was in transit. He couldn't join us for the group call. But yeah, Bob connected us over email, I believe, and maybe text, I don't recall. And so Mark and I, Mark felt, I think, kind of badly that he couldn't do it, like that he said he would do it and that he didn't end up doing it. And uh i i assume bob vouched for me you know um and so that was kind of it uh really we corresponded uh he felt badly that he couldn't make the group call we arranged a time we had a good talk you heard it uh and then i believe i put it out the right after i had put out that that group call uh so back to back it was like pavement week on my show for terror twilight light. Um, so, uh, yeah, I don't, can't recall cause I do so many of these, uh.
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[22:37] Exactly what mark and i talked about i think we talked about some of his, radio listening habits you did yes he still uses a radio yeah you might actually have a better perspective on it than me at this point because i just don't remember uh you know i jd i'm sure you're familiar with this you do so many of them uh interviews uh episodes you're just like oh yeah, i forgot i had so and so on the show what the hell did we talk about again i that happens to me all the time when i edit i'll be listening and i'll be like it sounds like a conversation between somebody who doubles my voice and my guests because i don't recall virtually anything about what we talked about well i remember realizing it was um a real kind of rarity for mark to do such a thing i think at the time um a sonic youth uh archival compilation had had just come out that mark appeared on so there's just a fair amount to talk about it was a lot of memory jogging unfortunately for him like you know trying to remember the terror twilight sessions trying to remember playing with sonic youth like all about a decade out from doing it you know or more a decade or more 20 years um so uh yeah i i he was very lovely and uh and forthcoming and um.
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[23:59] I really appreciate it. I think I've spoken to everyone but Gary, I suppose. I never got a chance to speak to Gary Young. But in terms of the, I guess, whatever, core or original lineup, yeah, I've talked to all of them at some points in my life. And I hope to talk to them again.
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[24:20] Yeah, I do adore them. So it's, yeah. You can tell. You can really tell. And we should have said this off the top, but Viche is, Creative Control is a podcast, if you haven't listened to it, you should listen to it. If you like music, if you're maybe a bit obsessive about music, Viche does a really phenomenal job of, you know, conversations with famous people. People uh for people who listen to this show you might want to start with some of the david berman stuff because it's it's pretty spectacular and uh and then work your way through the pavement but it's all it's all good from the stuff that i've heard for sure well thank you for the kind words and for saying so yeah i uh i do love doing the show and uh it has uh you know it's granted me access and insight, uh, to, and from people I really, truly admire and adore. And, uh, yeah, I marvel at, uh, what I've been able to, uh, accomplish and get away with, uh, it is, it is, I don't really understand it, but certain people like Bob and others, uh, uh, have a fondness for me and return to the show and all that sort of stuff. And, uh, so yeah, it means a lot. Thanks for saying that. No, no, I should have said it off the top. but uh what do you say we talk about the the song this week song number 18 let's do it okay we'll be back right after this hey.
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[25:48] This is bob mistanovich from pavement uh thanks for listening and now on with a countdown 18.
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[29:27] So today we're talking all about song number 18 from the masterpiece Wowie Zowie. It's the absolutely gorgeous Father to a Sister of Thought. Vish, what are your initial thoughts about this song? Well, you know, I was so happy that we landed on this as a song to talk about because I do love Wowie Zowie. I have a sense memory of picking it up when it came out. I think the day it came out. um and um obviously a strange sort of a strange record uh an eclectic record uh and this is interesting it's a really fascinating song because in some ways it's super accessible uh musically it leans with the pedal steel and some of the other moves it leans towards country music.
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[30:18] I will say, as I was pondering it, I mean, I know we are in a vacuum here of people who love Pavement and who love Stephen Malcomus, but as I was listening to this in preparation for our chat, I'm like, Malcomus is like an underrated everything. I really feel that way. And in particular, I think he's a remarkable singer. And, you know.
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[30:51] And this song, I think, exemplifies that. He makes super fascinating choices with his phrasing, I think, and just the notes he's going to go for on words. Like, I don't know how to put it. I'm not super adept at maybe talking about music on that level. But it's just very dynamic, the way he shoots his voice up and sort of speaks, sings one line.
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[31:17] And I think aside from missing his sort of grittiness, he also is a great screamer, great yeller. He really is. Like Paul McCartney level dynamic range, I think, with Steven when he wants to. Like he can sing. I don't know if that resonates with you. Like McCartney, to me, can sing anything. He can sing a ballad. He can sing like a Little Richard Rocker and sound like a punk. Like it's bonkers, that guy's vocal range. And I think Malcomus is in that, totally in that vein. So he's not yelling on this song but i think if anyone is interested like this song is a perfect showcase for what he can do as a vocalist and before i go much further jd does that resonate with you it certainly does i when i think of this song you know the word i used right off the bat was gorgeous uh and it's gorgeous in a number of ways the vocal the melody uh like his ability as a songwriter. I don't know how much of the arranging he did, or if it was Easley who said, let's use this pedal steel.
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[32:25] But nevertheless, it just works so well with the timbre of his voice. And it all comes together in a really lovely ball.
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[32:36] Yeah, and I think the little contrarian aspect to, or I don't know how to describe it, this little element of, yeah, it's a little contrary, I think, you know, I don't think I'm saying anything untoward where there's an element of self-sabotage sometimes in the pavement realm where everything's going fine, and then all of a sudden, let's pull the plug and do something wild and nuts or crazy, you know what I mean? And then yeah so this song has this really jaunty country vibe and then it ends with this like, minimalist noise rock stomp damn yeah yeah yeah like it gets it suddenly becomes a little more punk after the sort of so it's kind of this and it's all part of this it's that end it has nothing to do with anything else we've heard no instrumentally nothing but it works like it works so perfectly and i think it's a way of being like all right i think i think we're getting a little saccharin here it's too gentle or something let's end a little more raucous and uh so to me i hadn't really pondered it as such before but between malchumus i think singing his ass off and and really showing his range uh the band also ends up playing very dynamically and really beautifully and and also grit like as i say there's some grit towards the end so in a weird way.
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[34:03] And again i hadn't thought of it like this was a single as i recall um like there was a video for it and whatnot and they're all dressed up in like country western garb and all these sorts of things, but uh no it's a nice exemplification like this is a pretty good gateway in the pavement if you were like yeah listen to this song again you never heard of this band try this song just try it it's got humor it's enigmatic lyrically the arrangement itself is beautiful but funny uh yeah i i really think uh 18 this should be in the top five it's really wonderful wow yeah i would have it in my top 10 yeah i know you top 10 sure i don't know what these ratings mean i don't believe in ratings and awards but it's water cooler talk no it's i'm just saying as i think about it more first of all uh anyone out there listening uh once i dig into a topic i get a little excitable. So, uh, you can make the argument like, what about these other 10 songs? And I'd be like, yeah, yeah, those are also great. But this, this to me, I think, as I say, it's got a nice balance of earnestness, irreverence, beautiful singing, wonderful playing. Uh, yeah, I just think all across the board, it's beautiful. Yeah. Uh, well said.
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[35:20] When you think back to buying Wowie Zowie, you said you got it on the day it came out. First of all, that's very cool.
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[35:29] And second of all, I wonder, just to go on a tangent for a moment.
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[35:34] I wonder if your penchant for B-sides helped you with that record. Because it's almost constructed to me where there's like a song and then more of a b-side song than a song than more of a b-side song uh you know i'm thinking like brink's job and and and stuff like that um yeah you know so that that would have really helped but what were you thinking the first time and this is asking you to really stretch your brain i apologize but what were you thinking the first time you heard this song on this wicked roller coaster ride of a record you know what it's i know this song gets come or rather the album why always how he gets compared a lot to the white album sure by the beatles um who are from liverpool uh and are no longer around but they were uh that album was um i think it's rightly regarded as this uh odd pastiche niche of sounds and ideas and somehow it it only coheres because contextually they made it cohere like it doesn't really make a ton of sense as an album but it's one of those albums where like i couldn't tell you what the best song on it is because i almost view it conceptually as a whole Oh, wow. Wow. So, there's some of it, like, you can, there are singles from it and whatnot.
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[37:01] But I have a weird, this is more about me, I suppose, JD, than maybe most people, but like, I'm an albums person. So, when an artist or a band puts out an album, I assume, rightly or wrongly, in some cases it's not the case, but I assume it's a unified statement that they're making of a time, of.
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[37:25] Rolling Stones, certain bands, you'll be like, yeah, this album is actually like odds and sods from the previous couple of albums that they just reworked or whatever, revisited. Um, and they still count as albums, you know, certainly Stones in the seventies, you can make that argument. There's a few records where, yeah, like just what I'm describing, it's an album, but it's really like leftovers from some ideas they had. Um, I would put Wowie Zowie in that white album category of like, it's a whole thing. Like, the way it's sequenced, the way songs blend together.
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[38:04] As soon as you hear an artist do that, where the songs kind of barely, there's barely any air between them. Right. That's a sequencing choice. That's a mastering choice. That's all sorts of choices they're making. but there's then tends to be this coherence between them this isn't the case all across wowie zowie but there are songs as you know where it's just the next one just starts you're just right into another song um so it becomes a sort of sweet like thing all this to say uh i might be stalling to answer your question because i haven't listened to the whole album in some time this is going to prompt me to i listened to this song on its own and i will say it was a bit weird.
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[38:48] To hear it on its own because i don't listen to pavement sorry as i've tried to just maybe exemplify i generally don't listen to um bands i got a friend pointed out to me a few years ago he was we were in a band together and he said yeah you once said you don't like greatest hits compilations i said i said that said yeah we were driving we were listening to like acdc or something and you were just it came up in conversation and you said you don't like greatest hits compilations because the context of the music is all out of order and i said right that makes sense to me yeah you're i said yeah okay i don't remember saying that sometimes i say things and i don't remember that i said them and i said oh yeah well i mean i said i said it and it stuck with him like he said yeah i've started to listen that way now because you're right like the context of an album is so important to it so when you asked me to be on the show and and suggested uh you know that we were going to talk about this particular song i just listened to it on its own.
Track 3:
[39:52] Totally weird. Totally weird to hear it out of the album context. So I think going back to my sense memory, I don't know. I mean, it starts with We Dance, which is weird. And then you're right. Some of the songs seem, I mean, to some people, they would seem like half finished ideas. That's right. Right. Or just like little jabs of things, you know. So you're absolutely right too, like Serpentine Pad, Brink's Job, those sound like they could be B-sides, but I would argue that the pavement B-sides are never really, they don't feel like throwaways to me. I agree. Sometimes they're a little looser and more fun, like things happen and that you wouldn't really hear. No I don't even you know what I'm just going to retract that I think they are all fully.
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[40:48] Realized songs that stand on their own but yeah Wowie Zowie I suppose might have been the first sort of inkling that this band could do anything and they weren't afraid to try anything, I'm sure some people were disappointed after Crooked Rain Crooked Rain to hear this, band be a little more punk but also as we're talking about a song that like I say who knows I don't know I I've not really thought about this in a long time but I'm sure making the construction of wowie zowie and the sequencing was potentially a reaction to how much success and how they broke through with crooked rain.
Track 3:
[41:34] Yeah, I can get behind that thought because, I mean, it's almost outlined in Cut Your Hair, right? Yeah. That's sort of the blueprint for Wowie Zowie in a way. Yeah, like not deliberately self-sabotaging themselves, but being like, we're maybe a little too big. Let's do something a little less accessible. Like, let's do something a little more. I just want to be clear. I think it's brilliant. I don't find it confusing. But if you got into Cut Your Hair or Gold Sounds or got into that band that you saw freak out on The Tonight Show, you know... And then listen to Pueblo. Yeah, yeah. I think you're kind of like... Yeah. You would just be like, as a band, I doubt it was even conscious, but maybe it was. Maybe we should do something that's a little more like wild. And if that was the case, I'm not sure it was, I'm sure there's literature and I should have maybe revisited some of the liner notes and reissues and things to read about where their mindset was at. But, you know, even describing father to a sister of thought, it has that mix of totally, totally accessible. I could play this for my country music loving grandfather, but then it ends with like, Hey, grandpa, we're still kind of a punk band. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.
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[43:02] Oh, that's great. Going back to the theory of potentially sabotaging themselves, which I'm with you, I don't think they did it on purpose.
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[43:13] I almost think it's like a sound and style change. You're right, Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain was so accessible, and it had a familiar sound. It had sort of a California classic rock kind of vibe to it. It crooked rain is i will interject only to say that i think crooked rain is also super weird.
Track 3:
[43:35] It is it helped them break through but it is a weird album like it starts weird it has like a full studio sound like it sounds like i know that was made in a bit of a patchwork as well but like it sounds more like a studio record um sure they went they went to a place that that it wasn't going to be noisy and hissy and ambient even though it has elements of that like it has a warmth to it but it's a weird and wildly arranged album too but this is even well coming off a slant coming off a slanted though it seems it just seems more you know readily available i suppose to to a wider birth of people yeah but what i was going to say is it almost reminds me of what sm did when he went solo that first record is so accessible and so poppy and so hooky and so earwormy it's amazing and then he did piglib after that which i fucking adore but it's so off the wall compared to the self-titled debut yeah and if we're viewing malcolm as you know uh obviously obviously the main driver of of their songs then yeah it's it's his whims and it's his.
Track 3:
[44:50] His notions for a batch of songs like you know i think bright in the corners is uh on some level it's the cleanest sounding pavement album but it's also the most esoteric and and you know i the songs sprawl and they're all over the place as well but it's also somehow more coherent and contained than wowie zowie like but but the songs stretch out that's their what did we talk about with somebody recently uh maybe it was with the pavement guys uh grateful dead type stuff yeah sure yeah like it it has a it's it's a little more zen it's less frenetic even though the imagery and whatnot is pretty intense and some of the arrangements are too so yeah i think it's just modes again this goes back to my argument i love albums i love knowing that we're hearing where a band was at, at that given time. Uh, and, and that, that batch of songs, however, like wowie zowie, however disparate the songs might be from one another, that's what they were into. Like, that's what was going on with them at the time, whether it had anything to do with external considerations or perceptions about who they were, uh, how successful they wanted to be. Like Like, that might just be all bullshit I'm making up. It could just be that's just what he had, what Malcomus and what the band had going.
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[46:18] And this is it. You know, why waste it? This is, it's all over the place. Let's put it out as one thing. The next album, a little, like, I think it's, it's fair to say, uh, Bright in the Corners. Well, you know, maybe it's not fair to say, I'll ask you. Bright in the Corners, probably safe to say a more coherent sounding album than Why We Sowie. Absolutely. Yeah. It's, it's a more album-y album. Right. In a sense. But I also think Slanton and Enchanted all sounds like it's from the same expression, too. Sure, I guess I mean album to album. I just love the way it opens. There's a middle, and then there's an end. There's a finite end with Finn. Yeah yeah well i mean maybe i don't know like we we mentioned lollapalooza uh there was something going on in the in the moment in the cultural moment where you it was really cool to be an open-ended music listener it was really cool to be like yes we're playing with a folk musician we're playing with shanae o'connor and cypress hill on the same day bonkers and the jesus lizard like on some level that is a culture saying everyone is welcome every sound has merit.
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[47:34] We're sick of the orthodoxies we're sick of there being camps um and so maybe wowie zowie reflects that too uh on a musical level it can be noise damaged it can be a beautiful if strange folk song, it can be a country song, it can be a goddamn screamer where Malcolm clearly loses his voice you know, on Half a Canyon or whatever. Like, it's.
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[48:01] Yeah, as we speak of it, I love that album. And like I say, though, I'm having trouble decontextualizing this song from the whole. Right. And that's more about me. But if we really dial into it, when I say this is a good exemplification of Pavement as a whole, maybe it's a good exemplification of Wowie Zowie as a whole. It has that beauty and thoughtful lyricism where you're like, what's he talking about? What's going on? this is really interesting imagery. Is he talking about Corpus Christi, Texas? Or is he talking about Corpus Christi, the kind of event? Like, I remember just thinking right away, why is he singing about Texas? Like, I have that sense memory. And I have this song and some, I'm just a man. Like, I have just little bits of lyrics that are just always with me that I just hum to myself. And yeah, I, this is one of those songs where I just have sort of mindlessly sung it out loud to myself as i'm sort of tooling around my my life you know i don't know if you have that where you just have these lyrical lyrical fragments but this is definitely one of those songs.
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[49:08] And uh i think um yeah it exemplifies both the band and the album in a really fascinating way for me cool well is there anything you want to say uh more about father to a sister of thought or, well you know i'm a lyrics guy and we didn't uh have a chance to get too far into it but i also i know that i mean it's on the surface it seems to be about spirituality and uh people's relationships to that but with malcolm is also you never really know um on some level i think he's spoken about this song and whatnot but um no i don't know all i'll say is i marvel at the guy and i don't think uh he's one of these people i don't think we marvel at enough as a guitar player as a musician as a as a lyricist and particularly on this song as a singer and i hope uh this isn't uh some people don't find this to be a hyperbole but you know i think we take him for granted as He's a vocalist, and this is a great example of what he can do.
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[50:15] Agreed. Well, Vish, it's been dynamite to talk to you today. We went off on a few different directions, and I'm glad we got to do that. Do you want to talk a little bit more about you and the podcast? And I want to say right off the bat that I said it earlier, Creative Control, it's with K's, Creative Control. So if you're searching for it on the Google, you're going to want to spell it correctly. Correctly well thank you thank visha style of correctly well i will uh immediately say that this is a reference to a hot snake song of the same name creative control um so that's why i didn't make up the case thing and now there's like a fashion company called creative control and i think someone like fashions themselves a rapper and they call themselves creative control but they kind of show up and they don't show up i don't know what's going on but anyway yeah that's my show i mean on the internet they'll be like tweeting ramp like rabidly and then they just disappear. And then I don't know what's going on. Anyway. Yeah. Nothing to do. I, Hey, I copped the name from a band I like, so I can't really complain. Complain spelled with a K by the way.
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[51:23] So, uh, yeah, I have this podcast and as we're speaking, uh, you know, it's, it's still going, uh, and it's more important to me than ever because, uh, it is now my main, job at the moment as maybe by October it won't be, but, um.
Track 3:
[51:41] Yeah, so all I can say is if you support the work of people like me and JD and want to support podcasters, crowdfunding, I don't know about you, JD, and we don't have to talk too much shop, but the advertising revenue is very minimal and it's honestly a little gross. No offense to your sponsors.
Track 3:
[52:01] I'd rather just not have it. Yeah, I'd rather not have it. But yeah, the crowdfunding and the Patreon that I have is particularly important to me at the moment. So I have different incentives and different tiers and all that kind of stuff, like pay tiers, and it's flexible and monthly and all that kind of stuff. So sorry to make this about the money. We've already talked about some of the content or whatever, like the people I talked to. Yeah, I'm proud of it. It seems to be relentless. It's never going to stop unless I do and stop making it. That sounded morbid. uh by the way if i die the show will likely die too i i just want to be clear about that but no i i love doing the show it's afforded me um some wonderful experiences and both in the conversations and then just from people like you jd reaching out wanting to talk i mean it means a lot to me so thank you for giving me a time to some time to plug and thank you for having me on this wonderful show of yours and for the the lovely conversation it means a lot yeah for me Me too. Thank you so much. All right, everybody, that's what we've got today. So be cool. Make sure you're safe and wash your goddamn hands.
Track 1:
[53:15] Thanks for listening to Meeting Malcolmists, a pavement podcast where we count down the top 50 pavement tracks as selected by you. If you've got questions or concerns, please shoot me an email. JD at MeetingMalcolmists.com. You.
This week jD is joined by Kyra from the cornfields of Western Illinois to discuss both her Pavement origin story as well as her perspective on track 19.
Transcript:
Track 2:
[0:00] Previously on the Pavement Top 50. Blackout. So what do you think, Jessica, from Ann Arbor? I think it is a very solid Pavement song. Yeah. Like, I think it belongs in the top 20 to 30. Okay. Because, I don't know, it hits all the right Pavement beats. Hey, this is Westy from the Rock and Roll Band Pavement.
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[0:27] And you're listening to The Countdown. Hey, it's J.D. here, back for another episode of our Top 50 Countdown for Seminal Indie Rock Band, Pavement. Week over week, we're going to count down the 50 essential Pavement tracks that you selected with your very own Top 20 ballots. I then tabulated the results using an abacus, six taquitos, and a bottle of bismal. How will your favorite songs fare in the rankings? Rankings you'll need to tune in to find out so there's that this week i'm joined by pavement superfan kyra from the cornfields of western illinois illinois illinois how the fuck is it going my friend it's uh pretty fucking great thank you for asking all right well um let's let's not beat around the bush let's get right into this let's talk about your pavement origin story.
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[1:27] Okay um i got into pavement in the early 90s um i um graduated high school in 1994 so that was the year oh cool all right so um so you know um yeah i was 18 years old i was getting ready to graduate high school and um i'd been hearing about pavement you know and like spin and stuff magazine spin magazine and stuff like that and it sounded cool but here in the middle of fucking nowhere cornfield um they just didn't have everything you know or um you know just things were slower to get here maybe yeah stuff like that um but it's a it's a small town western illinois i lived in a town of 800 people 801 people and um i'm right now i'm in the college town that's not far from there which is a town of like 20 000 i think okay western illinois University and that's where I live now and that's where I kind of grew up around here and ended up back here but so anyway I was a teenage kid and I was into Nirvana and Pearl Jam Soundgarden all that all that stuff Alice in Chains but I was also getting into cool stuff I had a really cool curiosity I think you know I was into uh Dinosaur Jr. I was getting into Sonic Youth and uh.
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[2:43] Sugar, The Replacements, REM, Morphine, just stuff like that. I think I was getting into alternative type music. And I was also really getting into Bob Dylan around that time. Oh, wow. That's pretty diverse.
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[3:00] So Pavement kind of clicked with me. I got that CD called No Alternative. It was a compilation. It had a bunch of cool bands. It had a new Nirvana song on it. I think that's why I wanted to get it, because it had a cool Nirvana. A new hidden track on it or something like that um but the pavement song was really cool it was unseen power of the picket fence which is that weird rem kind of tribute not one of their best tunes but it's fun and it's cool and it introduced me to their how goofy and uh quirky and there's there's their sound and stuff like that right right so and i thought that's cool i like that filed it away maybe, hip-pocketed it. But then I got off work. I worked at the Hardee's here in town, the fast food restaurant. I got off work, went home, and I turned on my little black-and-white TV I had in my room and watched the end of the Jay Leno show. And he had pavement as his guests on his show, and I just, they played Cut Your Hair. Yeah. And it was, I just thought, I fell in love right there. I was like, this is the coolest thing I've ever heard.
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[4:17] And... And you're not wrong. Yeah, right? And it was around that time where Kurt Cobain died, too. And I was a big Nirvana fan. And shit was just really serious and heavy and kind of depressing. I was listening to a lot of Pearl Jam and Nirvana and Soundgarden and Alice in Chains. And everybody was a junkie and everybody was depressed. And pavement was a cool thing to come across around that time when I was an 18-year-old impressionable youth. because it wasn't really like that. It was fun, but it still felt very urgent, I felt. Their music felt vital and urgent and had a lot of depth and meaning for an 18-year-old kid, I think. Yeah. So it was a good breather from that serious stuff I've been listening to, and I was just instantly in love with that. And my friend, I think I went to school a couple days later, and my friend's like, hey, I bought that pavement tape that you told me about on Jay Leno or whatever. And he loaned it to me, and it was Crooked Ring, Crooked Ring. And of course, that's the greatest album ever made. So that was a pretty big one to get and get into. And I fell in love with that instantly, all those great songs. Songs, you know, Gold Sound, Silent Kid, Fillmore Jive, Ranged Life.
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[5:47] Every song on that one's a banger, right? It's a masterpiece. Yeah, so I got into that. I was like, well, I got to go get more of this. So I came over here to the record store. We used to have four record stores in this town. Now we have zero. Oh, shit.
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[6:02] Sucks but um anyway there's uh i came over here and bought the i saw another pavement cd and it was uh watery domestic chicken on the cover and that that's also the greatest thing ever made the greatest ep ever made i guess the greatest album ever no argument from me right and this was all within like maybe a few weeks a week or a week of each other and i just loved that i thought that was the best best thing i'd ever heard um and yeah i was just in love with paper after that And I was like, this is my band. You found your band. Yeah. And I eventually, over the next few months, started getting the other stuff. I got that Westing, which I don't know if you can see it back there, my little Steve Keen of the Westing cover. A friend gave me that. She bought it down from him in Oklahoma. But anyway, that's a great, that's a cool collection of tunes. And I was like, introduced me to their early stuff, which I thought was pretty cool. But I really like what they were doing currently more, you know, yeah, they're crooked rain stuff and you know And then I started just buying everything I could get from pavement and then I heard slanted enchanted I'm like, holy shit. This is also the greatest album ever made. So Yeah, yeah all that stuff. And then wowie zowie came out like maybe a year later, you know It wasn't very long and that one was pretty amazing too little little more of a head fuck than the other ones which is I.
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[7:27] Awesome you know and i just a big fan ever since um did you convert people as well i tried you had like so that you had some sort of echo chamber to be talking about this or were you isolated with your fandom um well that's a good question because my friends some of my friends kind of dug when i dug pavement and when i played it for them but i don't think they were they clicked with it like i I did, where they were totally in love with it, but they enjoyed that album, Crooked Rain and Crooked Rain. I think I might have played them something off Debris Slide or something like that. I don't know about this one, but I remember that. I actually joined the Navy right after I graduated high school and found out in the Navy that nobody liked pavement or heard of pavement.
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[8:18] I hardly met anybody. buddy um but i was traveling a lot and i would go to different towns to different record stores and find the find different pavement things so that was kind of fun and i would try to turn people onto it and it didn't really click very much i converted a few people though over the years i guess i had a roommate have people to talk to about it right yeah i had a roommate who was a drummer and i played him uh watery domestic i think and he was just blown away by the drumming I think that's Gary Young, right? Doing the crazy drumming on that one. Yeah, the drumming on that was Texas Never Whispers is so cool. And he was pretty blown away by that. He's like, this drumming is so different and not your typical drumming, I guess. So I converted a few people here and there over the years. Did you ever manage to see them live?
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[9:08] I did, yeah, finally, two years ago. Oh, cool. I saw them at the Chicago Theater. Yeah, good venue? They were so good. It's a classic venue, but it's not my preferred type of venue to see them in, but it was a beautiful place, and I was seeing the greatest band ever there. They sounded really good. They sounded so good on that. Yeah, they were great. So um i saw that i saw um steven malchemist and the jicks also when they first went on tour in like 2001 and that was a really cool show yeah yeah um bob was driving the rv and uh selling t-shirts really it just seemed really like a cool little tour um i think steven's um malchemist's girlfriend was in the band kind of for a while there um and she was kind of like doing background own vocals and stuff like that so it was kind of a fun gig um yeah i saw him on the pig lib tour.
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[10:13] Uh but i didn't make it out i don't i wonder where he would have played here for pig lib he played at a bar called lee's palace which is like just a great venue to you know just yeah he's into and i like those be with your people right i would rather do that than be at the show the Chicago theater but um this was at the metro where I saw in Chicago which is a it's kind of the cool venue in Chicago where all the cool bands play but um and I'm from small town it's three hours to Chicago for me a three or four hour drive um and you know it's scary in Chicago because it's hard to drive and traffic and stuff like that but that's why I didn't go to a lot of shows when I was a kid.
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[10:56] Just because I'm a hillbilly and uh I um didn't make it to see them when I when I would have loved to have seen them when they were at Lollapalooza or playing small clubs and stuff like that, touring behind Slanton and Enchanted. But no, I just kind of didn't get the chance to actually see them. I remember actually my now ex-wife bought me tickets to see them just on a whim. I told her I wanted to go see them in New York when they first reunited, like the reunion in 2010. 2010, I guess it would have been. Yeah, and she actually bought tickets, but we ended up going to Jamaica and getting married instead around the same time, so I had to cancel that. I mean, that's kind of a bust.
Track 3:
[11:45] So I kind of missed the opportunity there, I guess. But yeah, I've just been a huge fan ever since. I always felt like all of their album releases were like an event. And I remember hanging out like when I was stationed in Texas, hanging out with some friends when Bright in the Corners came out.
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[12:08] Playing it for them, and they actually really liked some of the songs on it. I remember, like, Stereo and Shady Lane and stuff like that. I thought that stuff could have been a hit. I was like, this stuff's going to be a hit, guys. And they're like, yeah, sure. And, of course, I'm always wrong. I was always wrong about that. I'm actually a radio person. I used to run the alternative rock station here in town when they had one, and I was always a champion of pavement.
Track 3:
[12:32] I do have a funny story, I guess, kind of funny. So I worked for the radio station here in town. there's like this local group of six radio stations yeah um and i was the um i ran the alternative station i was the music director and the dj there and then uh also was like the classic morning classic rock morning show person and um also the news kind of a news person too i just kind of did a lot of things jack of all trades or whatever but um our little station group got bought out by this uh corporate butthole hedge fund dude came down and bought the stations and then fired all the people basically but um they kind of kept me around for a couple months and i learned how to they talked told me i had to do the news so i was the news director and i had to make news stories and stuff like that which not much of a journalist but i was doing i was trying but um eventually they had they were going to fire me too and they did and i knew they were going to fire me so i did not go out without a fight and i um made this news story about how oh, the new owner was a butthole and all this stuff. But, you know, I still had like two something minutes left on my newscast.
Track 3:
[13:40] So I play, I'm like, oh, and here's pavement, gold sounds. And then I put gold sounds in there. And then I broadcast that out the rest of the day. They fired me across the whole area on all six of their stations. And so that went out and I exposed people to pavement and made my little...
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[14:03] Snide remarks about the the butthole uh guy who bought the stations and fired everybody and, it was uh it was a good feeling you played gold sounds yeah yeah i just i just thought that was a good it was it was a good length i think it's it's it might be my favorite of their songs i i don't know what i don't have i don't think i have a favorite but i have many but um yeah that Very nostalgic. Yeah, it is. Yeah, it's just got that feel. Yeah, just something wistful about it, I guess.
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[14:37] But, yeah, that was... Do you have a go-to record at this point? Like, do you have one that you'll put on, you know, when you're feeling pavement-y? Or does it depend on a specific mood? It's definitely a mood thing. It seems like Wowie Zowie is always getting played around here a lot for some reason. Um because that one's that one's big it's like the white album kind of you know favorite albums so it's a big long one with uh different moods and stuff like that and i kind of it's kind of how i am a moody person so i like the roller coaster ride of that one and i like the kind of woozy sound of a lot of the songs on that one i think it's just this beautiful sounding record and.
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[15:20] Um, it's got songs I don't like on it, even like a couple that kind of, I find a little more jarring, but, uh, it's still the one I've been listening to the most, I guess. But I, um, the first three, I think are, you know, the greatest albums ever made. And, um, I like the other ones also. So I have those ones on vinyl. I don't have the last two albums on vinyl and I play a lot of vinyl. So I guess that's why I, um, but my kids are into it too. That's kind of cool. They've, uh, tick tock was the harness your hopes thing. I heard my kids listening to it and I was like, Whoa, that's so cool. And they, uh, they would like, I had a t-shirt and didn't fit me anymore. So they would, they would fight over the t-shirt. They had a couple of daughters.
Track 3:
[16:10] Yeah. Right. But they, uh, they did. I tried to get them a little deeper into it, but they, they know harness your hopes. Which is cool and uh i was like why what does this mean my daughter said it's for a fit check i'm like what the heck is a fit check it's like an outfit showing off your outfit yeah i didn't know that it's been around yeah yeah so that's it's over my head too i'm 50 years old yeah, so i think that's pretty cool and then i've they've gotten into it it's cool seeing younger kids get into it i see it every once in a while i see somebody who's considerably younger than to myself almost in my kids age and getting into Pavement I'm like that's good it means it's I was right this whole time you know about this great band justice.
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[16:55] Exactly well Kyra what do you say we flip the record and get into track number 19.
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[17:08] Okay alright we'll do that right after this.
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[19:46] This week, we're going deep on Box Elder. How are you feeling about song number 19, Kyra, from the COWI? I fucking love Box Elder so much. It's a great song. It's one of the earlier Pavement songs. I think it's a very early Pavement song. Say it's, you know, song number one. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Which is cool. And it's one that really holds up, I think, too. So I was saying, if you're just joining us, I got into Pavement in 1994 at Crook and Rain, and it was awesome. And then I got Watery Domestic, and then I think a few weeks later, I got the Westing collection of tunes. And yeah, I just remember that one, immediately liking that song.
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[20:37] One thing I like about it is it's got a twee kind of twee element to it almost like a beat happening or something like that, like K Records Calvin Johnson kind of sound which I didn't really know much about then but when I hear it now and there's also something R.E.M. About that guitar riff on that I agree with you there Early R.E.M., for sure. Yeah, and I know that it was a big influence on them. And I'm a huge R.E.M. fan now. So there's that. And that song, I actually had to look this up, but it said that it's a true collaboration between the two, Stephen and Scott. Spiral, yeah. Yeah, they kind of just, it was his riff, I think, and then Malcolm Husky wrote the lyrics and sang over it. And they didn't really write songs like that before or after. It's kind of one of the only ones that was like really a collaboration like that, I guess. Very. I mean, I think they were all collaborations in one way or the other, but...
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[21:42] Yeah, for sure. On that tune. I love the lyrics of the tune. I love the meaning of it. I'm from Vermont, Illinois. Vermont IL, population 801. And Box Elder MO is just, I'm going to head to Box Elder MO. It's just he's going to head to some hillbilly ass town in Missouri. It's kind of what that's what i got out of it anyway um but being from a small town and being somebody who's different i'm a transgender woman um i didn't know it then but it's something i've always felt and it's something i still feel and getting hearing that line i've got to get the fuck out of this town meant something back then and recently maybe in the last couple years that tune is really everyone's like man i really love this song because i love that line i've got to get get the fuck out of this town because i was living in this other small town nearby which is just very, bigotty town and i was ready to get the fuck out of there so i'm glad to be out of that town um had to get the fuck out of that town and come over here to yes box elder love that that it means box elder yeah it's got some deep deep meaning um i think and uh yeah i'm in a place where there's I was in the town, there's not a lot of pavement fans, you know?
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[23:02] So get the fuck out of this town. So yeah, it's a cool song. I think their sound and their songwriting improved significantly after that. But as an early tune, I think it's definitely one of their best. And it's one that definitely means something to me, I think, for sure. Love that song. Love Box Elder. It's a good one. What do you think about where it landed on the countdown, number 19?
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[23:33] That's actually perfect. Do you think it's a fair spot for it? Yeah. I guess, yeah. I think it's a perfect spot. I mean, considering they made so many other great songs and that they really improved on their sound after that, but also as an early tune and they're finding their sound, I think that was definitely one of the most important songs in there.
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[23:56] In their canon of awesome tunes. Well, really, I mean, if you think back, this song was covered by Wedding Present and played by John Peel. And I wonder if John Peel hadn't got his hands or mine wrapped around pavement. Like, they are so huge in the UK. Yeah. And it just makes me wonder what, you know, what would have happened had they not had access to you know john peel it would have been very interesting but so that's how he got into them through wedding presents cover that's how uh my memory is so shit but i feel that sounds yeah okay yeah if i'm wrong send me an email jd meeting malcolmus at gmail.com new email address everybody well kyra it's been good talking to you today from uh western illinois and uh talking about box elder i enjoyed myself i hope you enjoyed yourself and um that's about what we have to say do you have anything you want to plug.
Track 3:
[25:04] Um no i mean i i host a i host a folk uh alternative country americana radio show on tri-states public radio every sunday night at seven o'clock if people are into that sort of stuff um but uh that's what i do but nothing to plug i'm just here to talk about pavement.
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[25:25] Love it i love the show it's a it's great show keep up the good work oh thanks that means a lot for real that's what i gotta say this week and uh we'll be back next week with song number 18 we are in the thick of the top 20 my goodness wash your goddamn hands.
jD, what gives it's Friday! Well I've decided to take a pause to reflect on the list thus far. I've enlisted Allison from Portland and Elvar from Iceland to go on this journey. They will discuss, dissect and debate the list as it stands thus far. Enjoy!
Transcript:
Track 2:
[0:15] Hey, it's J.D. here, back for another episode of the Pavement Top 50 Countdown. Hey, wait a minute. It's Friday. I can't be doing the countdown today. I just did number 20 on Monday. We're cracking the top 20.
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[0:31] This coming Monday, we're going to hit song number 19, if you can believe it. We're so far down this list, it makes me cuckoo bird. because we've yet to sort of analyze the list with context. So we're going to remedy that today. I've got two people that are chomping at the bit to discuss, dissect, and talk in detail. How do you like that alliteration? About the list thus far. Song 50 to song 20. That's right. right, they are going to tear that son of a bitch limb from fucking limb and talk to you about whether songs are rated too high, too low, just right. Are songs missing from this list that should be in the 50 to 20 range? Are there songs in the 50 to 20 range that you would not have in the top 50 or should they be inside the top 50 if they're not inside the top 20 i don't know what i just said there i'm a little fucked up so there's that so let's get right to this let's waste no more time we have got allison from portland and elvar from iceland joining us elvar how the fuck are you doing, man?
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[1:56] Pretty good. Pretty good. Elvar over here. Good to be here, man. Thanks for inviting me on. It's good to have you over.
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[2:03] So from Icelandic, we go to Portlandic. Portland get it uh anyway uh allison from portland how are you doing motherfucker it's.
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[2:14] Going great um allison over here and uh yeah thanks for thanks for having us yeah it's really great i love the pavement poster in your background by the way thank you that's pretty pretty slick um so you, know i don't think it's fair to go into the list before we get a sense of your pavement origins origin stories. We sort of need to hear those. So, Allison, we'll start with you. Yeah, I'll give a little origin story.
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[2:44] So, my freshman year of college, it would have been all through high school and stuff. I was really into post-punk and just all kinds of punk rock and stuff like that. And I got really, really into the fall. And then I met a guy on an internet dating website who told me if I should, or I guess it would be an app, but he said, if you like the fall, you should listen to Pavement because the fall was one of their influences. And we can get into that and my thoughts on that opinion that some people have a little bit. But either way, I listened to Pavement and totally loved it. And it was just kind of like the soundtrack to my college career. And then since then, I've just, it always stuck with me. And over the past couple of years, getting to see him play all the reunion shows and stuff, it's just been a huge part of my life. So, yeah, it's a band that's influenced by all the stuff that I love. And did something totally unique. So yeah, that's kind of how I got into them. How cool is that? It's almost as though they were constructed in a laboratory just for Allison. That's how I feel, yeah.
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[4:09] So Allison, is there anything you want to tell us about live performances you've seen? Anything like that?
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[4:16] The Portland reunion show as they kicked off the tour a couple years ago. Well, I saw them two times since then. Then I saw him in Seattle and then also in Salt Lake City since then. And then hopefully seeing him, well, definitely seeing him in Seattle again later this year. So, like, cool. Oh, yeah? Oh, cool. Yeah, they're playing Bumper Shoot, so. Right, right, right. Yeah. And then I guess that'll be the end, right? Because we've got news of the Hard Quartet. Yeah.
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[4:47] Yeah i think what's that alvar you haven't heard no what's that malcolm has uh announced his next band oh yeah the hard quartet yeah the hard quartet yeah i heard the hardcore set yeah how do you guys like the new track by the way i honestly haven't listened yeah you allison have you heard it yeah i like it yeah it's pretty good yeah very very gixxy for sure yeah for sure yeah i'm excited to see the rest of the record definitely i'm probably gonna wait for the whole record to drop because i like to listen to things yeah like completely when i heard the song i was like yeah it's i'm gonna i'm gonna love it in context definitely it's a context song i think you know today is all about context isn't it we're putting context to the list you know we're now i want to hear about your yes yes sure so in 2010 i was introduced to payment in my early 20s so i used to be like a rocker like i was into guns and roses when i was seven and music has always been like big for me and then this guy outney from this icelandic band fm belfast he was like hey you have to check out pavement you know like wowie sawie and i got p clip that's the first one i got okay i thought it was okay then i went to this record store and this guy was like yeah this is the best payment album gave me bright in the corners which is debatable and then i just got into it i remember just like going to youtube and listening to these like slanted and and and crooked rain, and just like, it blew my mind, you know?
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[6:17] Like, it changed my life. And like I said, I was like 22 or something. So I got fairly late into the game, but I'm born in the late 80s. So...
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[6:28] I saw Stephen Malkovich and the Jigs at November 19th in 2011 in Milan at a place called The Tunnel and we had a really nice interaction. I did like a shout out. I shouted out, do not feed the claustrophobic oyster which was my funny way of kind of requesting the track you know and Malkovich did like a skit like we but a lot I remember like I forget what he said but he finished it up with we don't know in songs about oysters so you know that was pretty cool so.
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[7:04] And i don't know if you guys know but pavement played here last uh summer like three nights yeah and that's like a thing like wilco did it i went and saw all three wilco shows nick cave just did it because he sold out so it's like a hot shit in iceland to come and do like a vegas you know thing so so that was pretty i'm so regretful that i didn't make it i wanted to go so badly and i made some really good friends from america who i'm talking to like daily now you know like through through pain so that's awesome so yeah pavement bringing people together since 1989 1989. Definitely. Definitely. Let me say this though. They did play some of the same songs like, you know, throughout the night. What Wilco did, they played three, 23 tracks at, and never the same song. And that was mind blowing. So kudos to Wilco. I don't know if I can throw that out at the payment. Of course you can. Of course you can. That was like, like fuck, you know, so, but awesome. Awesome. Great. That's my origin story.
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[8:13] All right. Well, we sound like we've got two qualified, bonafide folks here to analyze this list. So let's start at the start.
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[8:25] What do you think? Have you been listening? Have you been arguing with yourself when you hear some of these songs come out and you hear these people talk about the virtues of these songs? Songs um are you pleasantly surprised are you disappointed give it to me all alvar you can start buddy a little bit of both do you want me to start with the songs who are too lower or or too high you know you you are the leader my friend let me start with this loretta scars is at number 34 and that's probably my single favorite songs of all time uh wow just i don't know just the way he You guys know the song, the way he sings it in this pleating, nonchalant tone.
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[9:17] And when it kicks into full gear, I can just fucking hear eons of human history in that song, for lack of a better word. Really? And like the way he sings it, like the way he sings Loretta's scars, the way his voice like winds up on Loretta and then lazily speaks the scars. I fucking love that. That's my favorite vocal melody of all time. And I don't know why, just like if people, for the last 10 years, if people ask me, what's your favorite song? I always go to that song. It's just.
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[9:57] So you're pissed at 34? 34 yeah where is it on your list it's it's definitely higher than 34 because i i love that song um i don't know i'm not super good with like the different like with like pedal talk but whatever tone um he's got on that like fuzzy slanted era guitar is like one of my favorite tones so yeah um i think loretta scars is like one of the best examples of that and um i don't one of my favorite things that malchus does with his voice is like change register a lot like kind of what you're saying and um he does it beautifully in that song um yeah i definitely think that one could have been higher but i think a lot of the slanted songs could be higher but that's my my My own preference. And the lyrics. Interesting note, at number 34, that's the first song from Slanted and Enchanted on the list. That's the lowest one. That's the lowest one. Interesting. Yeah. That's insane. That's insane. I don't know how many others are on the list. I can't tell you, but. Right. But.
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[11:16] But it's cool. He's using like, Mark Musch uses two guitar tunings on this album for these guitar heads. And he's using the C, G, D, G, B, E tuning, which makes this really nice dissonance. Like he's doing pop chords, but like, you know, that's what's great about this album. You know, he's doing like pop chords, these weird left field pop structures, but with these, you know, alternative tunings that really bring this awesome, awesome flavor, you know, and Gary's on the drums.
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[11:49] It's just like, I don't know. It's just a beast. She's a beast yeah i could go on about that song you know but like you know i'll just i'll just have to do like a separate youtube video on it but you know yeah definitely allison do you have one you want to pick up i was very surprised to see where is it so i can make sure i get the number right i was very surprised to see pueblo at 39 because i thought that could be way higher um it's funny because like in the 30s and 40s i i mean i guess that's still pretty high out of 100 but a lot of my absolute favorites are on here so like pueblo number 39 and starlings the slipstream at 40 those two are like two of my favorites so seeing those ranked at that level right next to each other um is a little bit interesting i think they're similar songs too um just in the way that they kind of get into this like mellow ballad um era from from that that time of pavement where he kind of leaned into the more melodic ballads a little bit.
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[13:04] Uh, and it's like a lot of belting out and sort of like a climax in the song. Uh, I really associate that with those two tracks. So I was really thinking it would be higher than, um, that level. And then there's some other ones on there. I said slanted, but I guess more of what I was referring to is like the early, like Westing and like before they did, uh, more of the full length records. And it was a lot of like EPs and stuff. A lot of those early days are my favorite songs. So I thought that some of these would be a little bit higher too. Like Home would be one. Yeah. Yeah, there's very little representation on the three EPs. I'm just looking quickly here. Yeah. And. Five, six songs. Yeah, like maybe Pacific Trim. There's one from Pacific Trim. So in the top. Yeah. Gosh, in the stuff that we've listened to, I almost gave something away. But in the stuff that we've listened to so far, there's nothing from the three EPs. Oh, really? I thought Forklift was in there. Wait, do you mean the early ones? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What about Hackler Spray? Isn't that there?
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[14:21] Hackler Spray is in the 93. It's on the top 100. It's on the top 100, but not the top 50. Oh, we're not going to the 100. Sorry, sorry, sorry. We're talking about 50, yeah. We're talking about 50, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I was going over those two a lot and being like, I don't know about this, but anyways. I saw that... Can I go on? I saw that Blackout was number 20. That's easily a top five for me.
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[16:49] A top five definitely and I feel that song and paired with like Motion Suggest Itself and Father of a Sister of a Thought like these three are examples of Malkmus and the band, making up this like unique style when the music and the lyrics and the melodies and the performances are all put together somewhere between indie rock and alternative country but neither, and I don't know, it's so weary and so stoned and so depressed, and I feel like even if we listen to the stuff that was going on on Crooked and the stuff that was going on Bright in the Corners, similar songs like Lorraine's Live or Finn or something.
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[17:37] There's this point in time where they made the songs, and just like Pueblo, and Grounded, for me, probably top five songs ever on an album, never matched in production, and resonance just the way it sounds, the way it feels with the lyrics I haven't done psychedelics and listened to those songs but it would just really crush my soul probably in a good way and I realized that going through and I'm really listening to it and I was like wow this is the best stuff that I, and I can't really, if you guys can give me an example of something that sounds similar I would love to hear it you know like Like, like, like if I could challenge you like that, I don't know. I know I like, I'm experiencing this different differently than you guys, but like really blows my mind.
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[18:28] Like, yeah, I'm trying to think, but like, wow. He is an interesting record to try and find comps on. Right. Because it's so all over the place. Yeah. It's got elements of those first EPs. Like, I think those, you know, those burst songs that are anywhere from like a minute 30 to like two 10. You know, that almost feel incomplete, but they're still awesome.
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[18:50] They're on there. And then you've got something like Father to a Sister of Thought. And then you've got, like, it's just so diverse. Yeah. Yeah. The reason I love Wowie Zowie is because it really feels like they piecemealed together a record that's just like super, like you said, diverse. Verse and it has a it has a very sort of like exile on main street or um yeah yeah i mean honestly that'd be my biggest comparison just in terms of like the spirit of the record because there's so many different things going on and so many different types of songs and even like, genres almost like yes some of it is really poppy stuff some of it is like they really harken back to like the early EPs on Huawei Zhaoyi.
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[19:38] Yeah would you guys never just cut it down to like a 46 two-side record have you never thought about that i would love to know the the spiral like i hope someday that comes out did he want to do that he had a track listing at some point for the record that was about an 11 song record i think okay and uh i would love to know the sequence and i would love to know what didn't make the cut but that would be crazy would you guys not cut anything of it i would keep it exactly as it is yeah yeah i probably would too i'm i'm very much um i really think that they got their records right in terms of like the sequence of them and what songs were included on them like i love hearing you know the bonus releases that have come out that incorporate like like, unreleased songs or b-sides from singles or whatever, but I think the way they laid their records out is pretty perfect most of the time. Well put, well put, yeah.
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[20:40] They're five records, and they're all different, and they're all very, very good, like, bordering on masterpieces if they're not masterpieces. Like, don't get me wrong, it's my ultimate favorite band, but I love to nitpick, you know, like... That's why you're here, buddy, that's why you're here. That's fun, yeah. I was happy to see You Are Light in the top 50 because I feel like that's a super underrated Terror Twilight song.
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[21:12] It's definitely like the highlight of that record for me. So I was really happy that was on there. What do you guys think about that one? It's one of my favorites on that record, for sure. It made my top 70, definitely. And yeah, sorry, I went over the 50, I forgot. But yeah. Oh, that's okay. You're the light. That's a beautiful one. Definitely. It is. You are a light. I love the way it begins. I know that sounds very specific, but it's just sort of flipping on, kind of, you know? Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
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[21:48] And whatever where where is that on the it was number 45 is you are light okay yeah so shoot the shoot the singer at 25 that for me is a top 10 what do you guys think oof yeah i mean all of the i feel like watery domestic songs are way up there for me i think he really they really found.
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[22:14] What the band was about with those songs like yeah the singer i'm glad it's in the top 25 because i feel like some of the the ep songs like don't get as uh much traction with like newer, you know pavement fans like it took me a while after getting into them to listen to like the eps and stuff like that so glad that people are listening to it i think that's a great song what's interesting to me is you look at shoot the singer is 25 and then texas never whispers is 22 i would definitely flip those two yeah uh i love texas never whispers i think uh watery is, absolutely perfect it's it's even the even the outtakes from it greenlander etc are are uh so So Stark, um, they're, they're great songs as well, but, um, I like shoot the singer better. So yeah, it would be, it would be, it would have to be higher. I don't know where I could put it, but I feel like everything from watery could be in my top 15. Yeah. Like lions is 61. That's definitely a top 20. And yeah.
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[23:30] Yeah, that's a great one. And it's also like you said, this perfection of this era. We have this super low, down-tuned guitar accompanying the bass that's barely audible, and then a slightly distorted guitar making all these single notes all over the place accompanying the vocals. And Malkomash is just nailing the vocals, and Gary is just nailing these drum fills, and the lyrics are great. And I don't know if I'm going too deep into it, but I feel like the lyrics on Watery, They are their own things. They are different from the lyrics on Crooked Rain and different from the lyrics.
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[24:05] On Maui Sawi. It's amazing. I'm so glad we got this session because they were evolving so fast. And even like these extra tracks, like on the LA Desert Origins, we have like sessions from 93, like early Elevate Me Later and Rains Live and Grounded stuff. Stuff that's just like the band it's got gary it's got like some of it's got gary right yeah and then you can see the bands just doing different versions of these songs and just how, how full of magic they were back then you know just like i don't know just makes me realize how freaking great they actually are and were you know so yeah watery definitely absolutely yeah definitely up there yeah they found it yeah i one of my favorite things about gary's drumming um i play the drums and he really inspired me a lot because um he really leaned into like you don't have to play like a one four beat and keep it like you know a regular rock beat like he always kind of threw in some sort of like strange like instrumentation for keeping time and i think a A lot of the watery songs had that and a lot of the slanted songs had that.
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[25:22] Um well think about his choice even his choices on on summer babe that that hi-hat that that like triple with the hi-hat like going into yeah like that's cool like that's innovative right like that sounds like something i haven't really heard that much definitely right that's yeah that's exactly what i'm talking about that sort of just like interesting unique spin on things that he did I don't know if you guys noticed I had to like my friend had to point it out to me on Loretta Scars when he's singing from now on I can see the sun he's just doing.
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[26:00] On the hi-hat and the and the snare and nothing else a little bass drum, and I didn't notice like like just like you said super left field stuff but still fits so much that like you know oh yeah great great drummer rest in peace gary rest in peace that's right, now have either you guys had the chance to see the documentary no i wonder when it's going to come out like gary i got a i got a chance to watch it because i interviewed the director and he sent me a link so i could watch it but i assumed it would be out by now like i haven't i haven't talked about that on the podcast because don't they just go around these they have to go around for like sometimes a few months or something around these different, festivals. Right. Before that's true. Yeah. But yeah, definitely. Is it good? How is it? It was good. It was really interesting. He's an interesting dude, man. He's far out.
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[26:59] Is it like a documentary style? It's a documentary, yeah. It's a documentary on his life, yeah. I wasn't familiar with Plant Man and the solo stuff that he did after Pavement, so that was really fun to get a chance to see. Interesting. Yeah. I'm not super familiar with that. Yeah. Me neither. It's really a poppy song, too. It's goofy, but it's sort of like, I don't know, it's really sort of mainstream-y, you know? All right you have to send it to me later yeah i'll do that yeah sure there's also this oh the movie like no no no no you can't do that obviously the song right yeah i was like wait a minute no i can't do that um but there's also this live action movie sorry like if i'm digressing too much that's okay we're here to talk live action with these actors like doing the yes yeah what do you think yeah have you seen any i'm i'm very excited about it um my understanding is that uh Tim Heidecker and Jason Schwartzman are playing two of the guys who started Matador. Their names escape me right now.
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[28:08] And it's just kind of like, I think the original concept that I read about a couple of years ago was that it was going to be half documentary about the reunion shows. And then the other half was kind of like a retelling of how Pavement came together with actors. Um that's what i read at one point i'm not sure if maybe that has changed but um yeah i'm super excited about that because i love a lot of the actors that are involved with that um so yeah i can't wait me too uh like i want a release date and i want a trailer date like when are we going to get that man yeah and the guy who's playing marshmallows he's got this marshmallow chin in cuteness you know so um let's go to songs who are rated too high you know like since we are kind of or what do you think yeah absolutely drive the boat man drive the boat fin fin fin at 24, that's not in my top 70 for sure uh what do you guys think not in your top 70 nope, I was a little surprised to see that one that high also um.
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[29:27] Yeah, by the time we get to number 20, by the time we get to number 24, you're sort of thinking, oh, maybe we're not going to hear Finn, you know, because it certainly shouldn't be much higher than that. I wouldn't put it inside the 20, but it would be in my top 40 for sure. For sure, for sure. Yeah. It's hard in rankings like this to not compare to other songs, because when I think of my favorite songs on Brighten the Corners, Finn isn't one of them. So I think that sort of mentally impacts how I view the list. I did think that just because of how incredibly influential and popular that single was, I did think that Cut Your Hair would be higher than 21. Me too. That was so surprising, wasn't it? People are sick of it. It's just that, right? People are sick of it. If that's the case, how come Harness Your Hopes is on the top 50? It shouldn't be. No, it would have been much higher if it hadn't gotten the resurrection.
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[30:41] I think it would have been higher. Let me ask you, Alison, when you listened to Brighton & Cornish for the first time, was it the original 12-track album? Album i believe so i i didn't listen to um the full extended version that they released in like 2008 until a couple years ago i think so and that's your that's your favorite album jd am i right about that it is my favorite yeah and you but it floats it floats because i love crooked rain i love i don't you can't count watery but yeah i think because i got the deluxe edition and And then it's followed by the hacks and then it ends with like harness your hopes and roll with the wind. So I just kind of took it, you know, cause I was so new into the band. So I didn't really take fin as this end song. So it was kind of, I think that might have, you know, uh, interesting. It does work really well as like an end to the album, which was the intention, I believe. So, yeah. I still think it was I still think it was Anna SM.
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[31:49] Flirting at that point with the idea I think so interesting point yeah, it would have been a good way to end it have you guys heard the 94 version there's like a live 94 version it's slightly more fast tempo no I kind of like that better they played it And like 94 life, it started on YouTube. Yeah. Oh, shit. It's like in Oklahoma or something. Maybe I'll play it during this podcast. I'll intercut it.
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[32:27] We'll be right back.
Track 5:
[32:44] People, see where they're at Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah, No one has the blues No one has the blues No one has the nights ¶¶, I don't want to be called in the middle Look what you say to me.
Track 5:
[33:55] No one has a clue No one has a clue No one has a clue No one has to do it, baby.
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[34:27] What about Fight This Generation? What do you guys think about that? I thought that could have been higher for sure. That's one of my favorites. yeah one of my favorites can you tell me what you love about that song can you articulate it um i think that i like it um from like a mood perspective it feels like, uh it could be a soundtrack to a movie or something um the change about halfway through the song where Malthus is doing that riff and then the tempo kind of picks up. And then there's like this moment when Malthus's voice kind of cracks a little bit. And I think it's just like the coolest thing ever. It's when he goes like, fight this generation. I always thought it was funny a little bit, but it's, it's so cool. It sounds, it sounds really cool to me. So that's definitely like a top 10 song for me.
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[35:33] Yeah, it feels like the part in the movie where something bad or scary is about to happen, but like in a really awesome way. So because I only real. Oh, sorry. When I went to see traditional techniques, the tour for that, it was just him by himself and his MacBook and that lovely blue guitar. And um he he played a version of fight this generation and it was so cool it was so low-key, uh like i struggled at the beginning to figure out what it was i was really high but i mean i was i was listening to it and i was like what is this i know this song i know this song and then all of a sudden you know when when when you hear sweet yardley it's like oh yeah all right cool and then it just makes you want to jump up and down right after that after we get that you know that we get sort of lulled into submission and then all of a sudden it's just like wham smack you over the head yeah yeah i definitely think that uh major leagues is a little high for me personally that was never never uh a favorite of mine i don't know it just like never really clicked with me. I love the music video, but it's just not my favorite song.
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[36:58] But yeah, definitely. Going back, really, Malkmus is an underrated vocalist for sure. The way he can draw out his shit and just crack his voice and do whatever. It's like the next generation Lou Reed, but just a little cuter and a little more nuanced or something. And Lou Reed is probably my favorite artist besides Malkmus. So you know yeah he has a really he has a wide range like more than than a lot of other rockers that i could think of um he makes choices he makes choices that just aren't common as well, like if if there's two paths and one is the past that's the path that is well traveled,
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[37:49] he often goes on down the other path and i don't think he does that to be you know um different or far out or whatever i think it's just he's really good on that other path he's really good but yeah he was also very lucky to team up with spiral and oh my god yeah and gary in the beginning and then mark and and bob and steve you know like yeah i mean on his own he would have been great but just Just imagine Paul McCartney on his own. He would have been good, but not.
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[38:23] It's all a matter of chance, but what a great... So, hot take, Stop Breathing No. 28 doesn't crack my top 70 at all, you know. Top 70, he says again. There's actually, like I said, there's this version on the Crooked Rain, LA's Desert Origins Deluxe CD, the No. 2 CD, from a session recorded in early 93 at Gary Studios.
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[38:50] The gritty version, do you remember that one? if you guys go and listen to the the second cd of the the deluxe version of crooked rain you can hear like a more gritty version of uh is that the egg eggshell version no no that's that's the actual version is the heaven is a truck this is like oh right yes you're right this is the first first question on that song and he's saying like stop he's instead of saying stop breathing he starts saying start breathing start breathing and then start bleeding and then he says dad now i know that you broke me and i'm like wow okay yeah that's uh i don't know maybe i've listened too much to the the first one you know but like i really i really love that session you like all my friends ls2 the the original elevate me later and you know that's a great great great session soon yeah i love that we have access to some of the um i don't know the sessions that didn't make it to the albums and you can see how the song progressed as they were writing it so yeah how the lyrics changed and sort of the arrangement could change over time and what do you guys think about all my friends being at number 64 i think that's a gem oh sorry that's not 50 oh god damn Yeah. Sorry.
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[40:13] Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. You guys remember that one? Everybody's going. Yeah. Yeah. I feel, I feel that. Would that be in your top 70? That would be in my top 25. Okay. If, if, if they had taken those two first minutes, you know, and not gone into the second three minutes where it breaks down, because I feel like they started as this one. Of the best starts ever. Everybody's going out tonight, everybody's hanging out tonight, it's all right. Such a teenage nostalgia. And then when he starts shouting, I need it, I need it, and his voice breaks and the guitar is playing top.
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[40:58] That's for me, it's one of the best shit I've ever heard in my life. But unfortunately, it digresses from pure genius Genius onto like a sub-part track. So that's why it's top 25 and not like... In your top 10. Yeah, definitely. I don't know. How do you guys feel about that song? I like that song a lot, but I don't know... I don't know that I have a lot of feeling about it one way or the other as to where I'd put it on even my personal list. And my personal list doesn't go much higher than 20 just because that would just make my head explode. That's why I feel like when you're saying top 70, I'm like, holy shit. Yeah, I tried just going through all of the songs and just putting them just for fun. And, you know, the top five are really easy. Top 10, fairly easy. Top 20. then the top 30 40 you can start interchanging them how you feel 50 60 70 they change between days i'm not saying that but i'm like throwing it out just like i say you know yeah i definitely think as we move from here into the top 20 it's gonna get really difficult because i um even just like looking at the way these are ranked sometimes it's like difficult for me to see how i would tier them because if i start thinking about them or i hear them then i might change my mind i don't know yeah about some of these well let's talk about this a little bit more then yeah allison um.
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[42:27] Let's investigate a little bit more about what would be inside your top 20 what are you anticipating what are you looking forward to where do you think things will land based on what you've got so based on where we are um there's definitely some of my favorite tracks that are kind of missing from uh the list so far um and yeah i'm just curious what there is uh from there I'd love to see every song that they ever released on a list and then work back to see what's missing. Because looking at this, even just from 100 to 21 right now, there's a lot on there. So it's taken me a minute to think about what's missing. But yeah, I'm definitely hoping to see a lot more of like the early days in the top 20, just because I, you know, it makes me excited to think that people are appreciating like that era of pavement for sure. Like the early piece.
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[43:40] Yeah, yeah, definitely. Always excited to hear people talking about those and listening to those. So, yeah. Yeah, between those and Slanted, which have been, you know, not represented very well so far in this bottom 30, I have to think we're going to, you know, start to peel that layer, right? Like, we've got to see some Slanted stuff in this top 20. Like, numerous, numerous songs. More crooked. Yeah. Definitely. Where does Summer Babe land for you guys?
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[44:19] I definitely think it could be pretty high up for me. I mean, yeah, I love that song. To my top 15, absolutely, with a bullet. Yeah, top 10, definitely. It actually made things easy for me. I just downloaded the whole discography and put it into iTunes and fucked around with it for like two days. And that really, really put it into perspective. Because it's a lot when you see the list, it really jumbles up your mind. I was like, oh, you know, getting like kind of disoriented. So yeah, for sure.
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[44:48] Yeah yeah summer babies on there what do you guys think about my friend i know never mind i was gonna go back into the what about our our singer is that is is that not in the top 50.
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[45:00] No i don't think so no okay okay okay what about grave architecture that's number 32 two for me it's top 50 what do you guys think top 15 top 50 okay yeah i i think it belongs up here for sure that's such a catchy song oh yeah yeah that's a really good example of like the vocal register change like it hurts so rad and i'm fucking glad i i love that that's actually the part that really turns me off because i think the beginning when he says come on in that's also one of the best vocal melodies ever it's like three words and the way malchmus says these three words come on in it's one of the like top beginnings and songs ever but i feel like it kind of digresses for me with that pulled so red and i'm glad so yeah it's interesting to hear like different yeah you guys are so diametrically opposed there that's funny yeah yeah it is it is i i'm curious like in terms of where we're going um what i haven't seen that i was really surprised to not have seen yet is that we haven't seen um silent kid on here yet so yeah i'm definitely.
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[46:21] Yeah me too i a couple years ago made a list of like my favorite songs of all time and that was on there, like pavement aside, that's definitely one of them. So I'm curious if that will show up. Did I ask you just for fun, where do you guys rank Blackout? Are you happy with 20? Where would you put it? Did you already tell me? No, I didn't tell you. I think it's fine at 20. Yeah, I think it's fine. You would have it higher? Like I said, top 5 definitely, all time. What about you, Allison? I'd probably I mean, it's a great song. But again, it's like thinking about other songs, it probably would get bumped down from 20 if I had like, all the song titles in front of me, right?
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[47:11] Yeah okay cool but it's a great song yeah yeah definitely so what else are you looking for in the top 20 avar have we seen rattled by the rust no we haven't seen rattled by the rust no, rattled by the rust i mean frontwards definitely elevate me later one of my all-time favorites, you know i know rain still life is going to be there gold sound is going to be there the more obscure songs that I would love to have seen that are not on there are like, Passat Dream from Bread in the Corner the Spiral song that for me is also like kind of the like Lorehatter Scars it kind of brings out eons of kind of human civilization if that means anything it just like opens up my soul the way like how do you guys feel about that one Where's that? I like, yeah, I really like those two Spiral songs. And we've seen, I like a lot of Spiral songs, but I'm thinking from that record.
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[48:14] We've seen Date with Ikea already, right? Where did it land? Yeah. 38. Do you guys think Pass a Dream is going to be there or not? In the top 20, what do you guys think? Which one? I don't know. Pass a Dream. dream it could be i mean a lot of this has surprised me yeah um yeah go on um i was gonna say i bet you like we'll see a little bit more of the wowie zowie songs too because like grounded's not on here yet um it doesn't look like father to a sister of a thought is on here so i'm i'm I'm curious if those will get pretty high ranking as we go on. Western homes. What do you guys think about that one?
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[49:04] The closer to what we saw i'm not in love with yeah i'm not in love with it i'm not in love with it i think it's a fun song but it's not like a favorite song no of mine i never liked it but then i went back to the album before this podcast and he's like your western homes are locked forever it's like summing up this paranoia that's building up at the you know turn of the century kind of and the way it's i don't know i love that ending of the album for me you say with the eclectic while we saw it definitely agree there it's like a and kennel district at 23 what do you guys think about that did you like it that high i'm glad to see it there because i feel like and i'm talking about this like i don't know but i feel like unless we get painted soldiers, but painted soldiers is in the top 100 i think um yeah i don't know that we're gonna see another other spiral song like i'm more i feel like kennel district might be yeah his biggest might be the last spiral song we see i you know again i'm not tipping my hand but it's a really great fucking song and i'm trying to think are there spiral songs on record because preston school of industry is great um.
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[50:22] Uh oh fuck what one am i thinking about what's the one that uh he and sm do the like the duet on like where they're back at four circa 1970 that's right 1768 yeah i think that's in the top 100 yeah that's 62 i i would knock that up to to a top 50 definitely me too i love that one love that one again especially because we've got both of them right we don't have very many where you get to hear no you know so yeah it's pretty rare i can't really think of another well there's maybe a couple but yeah i i love kennel district that's definitely my favorite spiral song, it's a great song i feel like if we were to ask a lot of people they would say that's their favorite spiral song and that's to me is the harbinger of like doom you know that that it's going to be the last spiral song i just think it's insane there are 100 songs on there and And Pass a Dream. There are so many subpar pavement songs on this top 100. And that to me is a real... I'm upset about that one. It's not on the top 100?
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[51:26] No. Let me look and see if it's on the whole list here. That's what I'm saying. I'll tell you where it is. Because the whole list goes up to 121. Ah, really? Oh, wow. There was enough songs. So Western Homes. What about Perfume V at 58? Did you guys think it is? Yeah, yeah. Even if it's not, it's almost in the top 50. How do you guys like that one? I love that song. I think it probably, it's a good spot for it.
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[51:56] Definitely like close to top 50 at least. It's a great song. Yeah. Okay. So I'll tell you what 100 through 105 was. Okay. So number 100 was Baptist Black Tick. number 51 or 101 was stare no sorry 101 was baptist black stick 102 was stare number 103 was pass a dream uh number 104 was platform blues and number 105 was from slate tracks maybe maybe okay so there you go i'm think jackal's the lonesome error that has to be in the top 20 What do you guys think?
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[52:36] Jackals, false grace, the lonesome era. That's a spiral song. That's spiral singing. I got one holy life to live. That's peril. Yeah. That's not the top 50 for you. What about you, Alvin? Oh, no. You said top 20. I wouldn't be in my top 20. I said top 20. Yeah. Yeah. I think probably not top 20, but it's definitely up there. Okay. Okay. Cool. cool that's like that's like top top 10 for me probably i love that one that's what keep going, I was going to say, I kind of feel similarly about Fame Throwa, because that's some of my favorite drumming that Gary did. I thought that would be way up there.
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[53:21] I thought it would be in the top 50 for sure. Where did that end? 79, yeah. I don't know there's something about some of these songs like I've been talking about maybe like an acetate about eons you know like the eons of human existence kind of like you know and like Jackals, Loretta Scars Our Singer like I feel like You fucking love Slanted don't you There's this energy, and like I said if I had to pick the best top five songs of an album I said like Blackout, Grounded, Motion, Pueblo, and Father of a Sister of a Thought. I could maybe pick five of Slanted. But these 10 songs for me, I don't know. I think it's why I love Pavement so much. It's to me on another level that no one has ever reached.
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[54:16] Yeah. Agreed. And that's why we're all here. We love this band. What about Camera? that's not on the list camera is on the top it's on the whole list but is it it might be the last song camera yeah camera is so that's 120 119 118 okay yeah how do you guys like that one that's my top that's a top 40 for me oh i fucking love his voice in that song when he really when he's really squealing yeah you know i like that yeah but would it be in my top 50 no probably not though there are a lot of songs left though for me if i try to rack my brain i have a hard time kind of filling it out with the songs that are here it's going to be well so what you're saying is it's going to be a surprise and you're going to keep tuning in so that's good to hear yeah yeah Yeah. So I really want to thank you for joining me tonight to have this discussion, this roundtable discussion. Any final thoughts? Excited for the top 20. All right. Well, we'll kick into that next week. We'll see what our predictions. Yeah, we'll see where our predictions end up. Coming on Monday, song number 19.
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[55:34] And we'll see who's, yeah, that's going to be a good one. That's going to be a good one. It's going to be surprising. My take from this is just like, made me realize just how much I fucking love Pavement. Like I said, I knew it was my favorite band. And I'm sorry if I've been going way too into the nitty-gritty of the shit that obscure stuff, but it really blew my mind for the last two days, really going back to these songs and being like, wow, okay, they really... And after all the music I've gone through throughout these years, after I listened to Pavement, they're still just always up there. And thank you for doing this, JD. Thank you for your work. Oh, thanks, man. Awesome, awesome. Thank you. Awesome it's a lot that means really really you know yeah it's just so cool to see like other pavement fans and just know that they're still you know super relevant inspiring yeah yeah yes yeah and it'll make a nest like how close are you talking to muskmus you think oh me yeah i did you did oh you didn't listen to the yeah you gotta listen to the whole hear it i didn't hear it which Which episode is that? I want to say it's, Oh God, I don't know. I don't know what happened, but I know that it happened on Valentine's day. It happened on Valentine's day of 2022.
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[57:00] I think. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Okay. Yeah. I fulfilled my destiny. Yeah, absolutely. Awesome. So anything you guys want to plug, anything that you have to plug, any projects that you're working on or anything online or anything like that. Allison, you mentioned you play drums. Are you in a band? I, uh, stay tuned. I don't have anything to plug just yet, but, um, yeah, hopefully we'll soon. Yeah, actually have a band that's going pretty good that I hope I can plug soon. Oh, awesome. I have a podcast called peeling the onion where I'm interviewing like musicians. So that's everywhere, like on Spotify and YouTube and stuff. So how many episodes? Yeah. Like seven. And I've talked to great people, like talk to looper low. The other day you know really he was awesome i talked to steve albini like february 20th so i was really lucky to get that one in and it's been like a lot of i'm talking to people i really admire you know what i mean so yeah i really taken the time to do like my homework so it's been a lot of fun for me because i love music as you guys can hear you know so cool so peeling the onion find that on podcast networks everywhere yeah and it sounds like a good one might be the One of the last interviews was Steve Albini, right? Yeah.
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[58:23] Yeah. It's very sad because I was asking him like, so because I knew that he wanted to quit before he lost his hearing, you know? And he said like, I'm going to go on for like 10 more years. And, you know, like, you know, and it was just, and I know people who knew him personally and he was a really genuinely nice person and just such an influence on music overall. All like you guys know you know yeah so awesome yeah really nice to meet you guys you guys are really cool nice to meet you guys too yeah great to meet you too yeah all right stay cool that's what we got for you this week and wash your goddamn hands.
This week on the Pavement Top 50 Countdown, jD is joined by Jessica from Ann Arbor to reveal track 20 and discuss her Pavement origin story.
Transcript:
Track 2:
[0:00] Previously on the Pavement Top 50. Today, we're talking all about number 21, Cut Your Hair. Russell, talk to me about your relationship with this song. I love this song for a few reasons. One, I think because it's ubiquitous. And when I talk about pavement to the rest of the free world, people are like, I don't remember that band. And if I say cut your hair, people are like, yeah, I remember that. Hey, this is Westy from the.
Track 3:
[0:41] Pavement, and you're listening to The Countdown. hey it's jd here back for another episode of the top 50 countdown for seminal indie rock band, pavement week over week we're going to count down the 50 essential pavement tracks that you selected with your very own top 20 ballots i then tabulated the results using an abacus and speed, just speed how will your favorite song fare in the rankings well you'll have to tune in to find out So there's that. This week I'm joined by Pavement superfan Jessica from Ann Arbor. Jessica, how the fuck are you doing? Super fucking good. I love it. I love it. This is exciting. When people fire back an F shot at me, that's like my favorite thing. It's validation to a degree. I was wondering if you were going to say like, hey, motherfucker, since I heard that maybe you haven't had a lot of ladies yet. I haven't. I said that to, I will promise I will say that in the future. Us ladies can be motherfuckers too. Yeah, yeah. Well, let's get right into it, Jessica from Ann Arbor. Let's hear your Pavement Origins story. Okay. She's opening a tome right now, folks. I know, I didn't want to go back into childhood, but it probably is high school-ish. Okay.
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[2:11] So that would be late 80s, early 90s. And I lived in Michigan, which I do again. And I liked a lot of like alternative music, but it was kind of hard to find out about it. Right. Back in the day before the internets. um so one way was i read a lot of like british music magazines like enemy and melody maker um and i would read little tidbits which comes into the first time i met pavement so um.
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[2:53] Oh, and I loved R.E.M. That was like my number one, probably, favorite band. I like the Replacements and a lot of British shoegazy bands. But the week after high school, my best friend and I decided to move to Athens, Georgia. And we were 17. And we just picked up and left. And we ended up living across the street from Michael Stipe. That's pretty fucking cool. That was like a dream come true. We were 17 for a while.
Track 3:
[3:24] So it was like this Disney world for music lovers because there were so many cool bands. But it was a little bit hard to get into stuff like bars and things the first few months. But we met a lot of people and that helped. And then we turned 18 and then we could get into more things. things but there was like cool bands playing for four dollars like five or six nights a week it was really cool we go dancing a lot and stuff um but we had tickets to go see u2 that we bought in michigan before we left so we went back for that but then we had to drive back, because we heard pavement was playing at the 40 watt in essence really this was in 92 okay so we went to the u2 show which was pretty awesome and um wayne from uh no guards from wayne's world was like satellite linked into that show and played drums for something on mtv, So that was a random place to be. But we had to drive back to Athens, and it was like 12 or 14 hours. And we went like straight to the show.
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[4:42] And it was crazy and wild and sweaty. And Gary is a band. And he was doing handstands and headstands and hanging from the rafters. And it has since been put on YouTube. So now I can watch my 17-year-old self's view of watching them. But we really wanted to talk to them because we read in Enemy or Melody Maker or that they were going to be on 90210, Beverly Hills 90210, but that they, Stephen got in a fist fight with one of the guys, one of the actors. Oh, my gosh. And so before I even heard what they sounded like, I was like, I like these guys. They beat up somebody on 90210. So that was the first thing I asked them. And it was a rumor that Scott started about Stephen. than, I think, just to fuck with the UK press or something. Which sounded, that was a pretty cool thing, too. And, yeah, that was an awesome show.
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[5:52] And, yeah, I was hooked. I think that summer before that, so right after high school, is I think I got Slandered Enchanted was the first thing I heard. You got that in real time, basically. I think so because we volunteered to work for this local free magazine to review bands, and they gave us a lot of free stuff. And I think that that's where we got that. I don't know if we bought it or not.
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[6:28] And then I moved back to Michigan. and i had we went to high school with jim but we weren't really friends but then we worked at a store together and then we somehow started talking found out we liked a lot of the same music, and then that's jen will be coming up on a future episode just so you know, crazy jen and she's like the super fan uber fan i'm like a robin to a batman i would think because she worked at a super cool record store and so she had all the seven inches before, and cool promo things and she knew like you know label owners and promoters and people who ran clubs and all kinds of stuff so even at you know she was a year older than me so we're still like you know well 18 19 year olds and um.
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[7:27] Oh, she had the inside track. So she would like make me tapes of all her cool seven inches. So I had like, you know, the peel sessions and we had all these weird bootlegs. And then I think I went to England the year before that, but then I went again and got a lot of weird bootlegs, including some pavement ones.
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[7:54] And um then we went to see them together um and she is better remembering this so she had to kind of fill me in we saw them in chicago and we've gone all over the place to see them we've gone on lots of road trips because they're very important to us yeah and um but chicago is was only about four hours away and um um we also somewhere in there i think she she wanted to remind me and i guess i'm filling in some gaps that we um we wrote them some weird fan letters, somewhere in here somewhere in like 93 or 94 which i used to do with a lot of bands and i became friends with a lot of bands from writing really weird fan letters and sending really strange presence um we would just like really exaggerate things like she says that we found a danzig fanzine or something and we just changed the words around to something but we would just pretend we were like insane for them like we would say that we would, crawl a hundred miles over broken glass just to smell their shadows.
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[9:11] Knows just like really over the top weird stuff um we weren't um obviously serious um and we would just put weird toys and um gadgets and odd things and just send gift boxes to bands we liked and it always made an impression um so yeah um it's a good icebreaker if you're shy too. Jen always thinks that I was better at talking to people in bands, but I'm super duper duper duper shy either. I have to overcome like being terrified. But if you have like a funky present or something silly to do or say, then it makes it easier. And they always enjoyed that. And I think that first time we gave them some weird thing we got from a truck stop was a license plate with a Confederate flag on it, which I'm cringing at now, and it said, Ass Kickin' Southern Rock. And Westy put it on his drum kit, and that made us excited.
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[10:22] And then we, I think we saw him in Detroit like the next day or the next week or something. And they let us go to the sound check, and that was very exciting. And yeah, we always tried to be like in the front row, laughing and screaming and dancing. And it was very fun. And um they they gave us cool things too like one time they gave us some stephen keen paintings that were like left over from something um really.
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[11:01] We got some cool stuff um and then once we got through with like kind of like we you know gush a little bit about what songs we liked or um stuff then they would we would just like kind of act like regular people with them and we'd like go out to dinner with them or go walking around with them and it was pretty cool i bet holy crap that's fucking dynamite, it was groovy those were the salad days we made them last for a few years too, talk to me about that after that refreshing sip of water i hope it's not moonshine it's uh just Just agua. I'll try not to slurp too much in the microphone. Let's see. I had to write down some of these things because I have these big blank spaces.
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[11:56] So let's see. And I'm blind because I'm old now. I'm almost 50. Me too. And let's see. Okay. Okay. I had to get some help with Jen and the internet. All right, so let's see. Then we saw him in Detroit. Oh, apparently they did two shows, an early show and a late show. That was in 94.
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[12:21] So we saw him in May and October. So at this point, we'd seen him like five or six times. Then we went to see him in Cincinnati.
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[12:32] And I'm trying to think. We went to this, like, we would just go to the dirtiest, nastiest places that were like out in the middle of nowhere. We could have got killed and we were in jen's like old subaru that backfired all the time and pretty sure we got a flat tire once um and it was mostly like big scary drunk guys at these shows and then it was just us little girl um but um oh i know we made shirts for them i think, i don't know if jen has or will talked about but she wanted me to tell you we made these um homemade shirts and they were on um baseball kind of shirts with like you know three-quarter sleeves they were green they're very kind of 70s retro and um our old gym teacher had a t-shirt shop so we um would go and just make weird collages and then print them out into iron-ons and then he put them on and then we do lettering and i would like sew on sequins stuff and so like yeah they were very 70s looking like they would say like you know pavement rules or pavement is number one and they would have some like album art on it or some pictures of them and or just random stuff and they really liked those and i think they signed our shirts we wore them a couple times and scott really liked him so we made him one.
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[13:59] And, um, there's a picture of us wearing ours in the, um, in the pavement documentary. Oh, really? In slow century? Yeah. Yeah. It's the back of us though. Cause I think, I think, I think Scott took that picture and owned it, but we had our own pictures of our faces, which we still have. Jen has most of them.
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[14:24] Um, but yeah, I made one for, well, we both made it for Scott, but yeah. Yeah, she was, I sewed on like a million like individual sequins on part of his shirt. And he liked that one a lot. And we would still, we'd give him weird presents too. There were these cool stores. There's one in Cincinnati and one in Chicago. They were called Big Fun and Uncle Fun. And they had like really weird retro toys and just weird stuff from Europe. Up like we got these really tiny harmonicas that were the box had made in occupied japan they were so tiny or and we just give them like spark guns or toys or trading cards or just weird stuff that we could find um and then you know they started knowing us every time we'd show up they'd be like hey i'm here um and that was kind of cool because then we'd know like the the sound guys and the tour managers too. So even if it was somewhere, cause I went to see him in England quite a few times. Oh, that was, so yeah, I lived in England for a couple of years in London. Um, and, um, saw him there and that was very different, you know, and then I saw them as they got bigger and bigger cause we saw them in pretty little clubs and then like bigger clubs and some theaters and stuff.
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[15:51] Um, and, But it would be weird, because sometimes in London, there's other people in big, fancy bands back there, backstage.
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[16:01] And I would just kind of sit quietly and be like, this is exciting. And for some reason, this isn't a very musical memory, but I remember I had been in England for a couple of years, and I missed a lot of American stuff. Yeah. Just like the, I don't know, I missed Taco Bell. And weird American stuff. And Bob had some Tic Tacs and for some reason I thought they were American and they were nowhere else. And so I got really excited and I was like, America Tic Tacs! And then we had a Tic Tac fight, um backstage um but.
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[16:42] Mostly we were just i would just kind of rock out love the shows we got very excited if they ever dedicated songs to us which they would every once in a while like you know if it was like our 10th show or our 10th year or something or our 20th show um we went a lot of road trips around america i'm going to see them and um yeah it was always an amazing time i bet they became your buddies yeah do you still talk yes um it's not quite as rock and roll now i play online scrabble with bob pretty much every day you do that's my most rock and roll mom story that i have that's pretty cool that's what nerdy we are that's very cool amazing he is he's like a sweet teddy bear they're all so nice yeah um i've had and i've had a lot of good talks with all of them and um so it's pretty cool when you um well they always I say, like, don't meet your heroes, but almost every band I've met has been awesome, and, um.
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[18:01] Uh i've known a lot of them for 10 20 30 years now that's very cool and so i didn't see him quite a bit during the breakup times i saw um steven and the jicks a couple times, in the early 2000s in preston school industry and that was fun because me and jen had kind of lost touch she had moved out west and i moved to england and it still wasn't really good internet days and so we were like connecting through pavement like scott would say hey yeah she's in colorado now and she has a chihuahua i would be like tell her i said hi if you see her before me.
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[18:51] Um it was they're like um we kind of think of them as our big brothers i bet yeah i mean and the fact that you got to see them and their rise to prominence right like that's that's pretty cool, but i have to say you know since they never got like mega gigantic they never became like stuck-up assholes so no no yeah they've always been the same um and so i didn't see him like a of reunion-y stuff like in the like 2010s thing i think i might have been having a baby somewhere in that time gotcha and being a mom and being kind of boring um, so the last time i saw them um jen came out here and we saw him in detroit, oh that's cool at the masonic temple when was that 20 2022 or yeah yeah okay and so So that had been like basically 30 years of us going to see them off and on. And I got front row for that one, so I was very excited. And she had seen them earlier on in the tour, so she got to tell them that we were going to have our reunion. And it was pretty cool. They dedicated some songs to us, and that always makes you feel like a super fan.
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[20:14] So yeah it was pretty groovy yeah I bet what's your what's your go-to record these days, um Jen and I were kind of talking about this I think I think, Probably Slanted and Crick and Rain are like my comfort records. Yeah. But it was when I was kind of a teenager, so there's kind of like an angsty, whole different world that I was taking them in. But it still feels like my comfort. Those are my comfort albums. albums um but i definitely have like favorites on all the um ones past then plus the cool thing was is we got to hear um songs that ended up coming out like years later earlier on and we had like different names for them because we didn't know what they were called or they would be on, a bootleg or something and yeah we had our own names for them that we had to unlearn.
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[21:23] Um like i think we called grounded i think jen was saying we call it the sedan song okay just because he said something about the sedan in the parking lot maybe i don't know we just pick one word and be like oh that's that one um we may not have even known some earlier song names or we just make up our own we did a lot of singing to the um stuff we liked once where they were like singing back and forth, like call and response, like, yes. Uh, Circus 1762. We love singing that one in the car. So, um, so, um, I can definitely play those first two albums and all the like, uh, pre singles and stuff, um, solidly, but I kind of pick and choose what I listened to on the later albums. Okay. What I'm in the mood for. Yeah, I can see that. Well, what do you say we flip the script here and talk about song number 20? Are you down with that? I'm down with that. Well, let's do that. We'll hit that right after this break. Hey, this is Bob Mustanovich from Pavement. Thanks for listening.
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[22:34] And now on with a countdown. 20!
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[24:49] This week on the show, number 20 on the countdown. I'm pretty excited about this one. It's Blackout. This is the ninth song from Wowie Zowie to make the cut on the top 50. Pretty good showing for Wowie Zowie, I would say. What do you think, Jessica, from Ann Arbor? I think it is a very solid pavement song. Yeah. Like, I think it belongs in the top 20 to 30. Okay. Because, I don't know, it hits all the right pavement beats. It's kind of pretty. It's kind of dirty.
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[25:28] It's got weird lyrics. I'm not sure what it's about. No, it's really tough with us out there. Yes, I mean, sometimes it sounds so like, I don't know. You know, it's, what's it called when you're just saying words? I call it word salad. Word salad. That's what I call it. I'm so lyrical. Yeah, like just, yeah, because sometimes they don't make any sense. You just get little images. That's right. They give you vibes, right? Yeah, or moments. I definitely feel like they have this world and there's some characters in them. You know like loretta's in there somewhere right um um i don't know that one feels like kind of like i don't know a guy in high school or college or starting job or something he's kind of lost, i don't know if there's a real whole story there but i get little snippets right things stream of consciousness that's what i think i was thinking stream of consciousness yes Yes. Or he just gets little, you know, words that rhyme. Little phrases here and there. Or they just sound groovy. Is that the one that has...
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[26:49] I always thought it was Dirty Scots, but then I saw somewhere that maybe it was Sturdy Scots. And I always liked that because I like a lot of Scottish everything and Dirty Scots.
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[27:04] I did, I don't want to ramble on a thing. I just thought of a David Berman thing. Oh, sure. Dirty Scot. I never saw Silver Jews, but love, love, love them. But when I was living in London, David Berman did like a reading at this little dirty bar called Filthy McNasty's. I don't know why Dirty Scott's made me think of that. And that was the one and only time I saw and met him in person. He was very nice and shy. I had tickets for Purple Mountains, but obviously we know how that turned out. Yeah. Yeah, pretty terrible. Yeah.
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[27:48] Back to the song for a moment. I'm sorry. No. What is your relationship with this song? Like, do you have any sort of relationship with this song? You mentioned that Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain, and Planted are your sort of go-tos. Is this a song that you'll pick and choose from Wally's Alley? Or do you pass it up? Or what's the deal? It's a thumbs up for me. Because there are a few that I kind of go like, eh. i'll listen i don't think there's anything i skit really ever um and i kind of like that all the albums have like songs that are like making me feel like i'm gonna cry one minute and they're so slow and sad and then the next minute i'm like jumping up and down and screaming something stupid with them um and that one's more in the like mellow um slow sad thing and i'm yeah i'm I'm a sucker for that kind of song. That's good. I think it's pretty. It is pretty. It's got a great melody. Yeah. It's a good solid one. Yeah. I'd put it on a mixtape for somebody. Okay.
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[29:00] If I was introducing to them a system pavement. That's the highest compliment you can make to somebody, you know? Like, we get that. We get that because of our era. But it is such a high compliment, right? I'm going to make you a mixtape. I remember I burned somebody a CD once, like a mixtape on a CD. And it just wasn't the same. Just wasn't the same. It isn't. It was so hard because you had to fit them into, you know, the side. and I didn't like leaving too much space. I put little parts of movies and shows and like weird little snippets of people talking. Oh, that's badass. I have gotten compliments many years later from many of my high school friends that I did make really good mixtapes. So I kind of need to borrow them from them because they probably were pretty good. People like send me pictures of the track listing and I'm like, ooh, I forgot about too much of those bands. I'm going to go look them up now. Oh, that's great.
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[30:02] Yeah, mixtapes. The children today, they won't know. No, they just really won't. Well, cassettes are starting to come back in a weird way. So maybe they will. Maybe they will. I will say I have a 12-year-old daughter now. And right after we went to see Pavement in 2022, I took a few videos and I was watching a couple on my phone and she came in the room and said, Hey, I know that song. It was Harness Your Hopes. And I was like, I was like, no, you don't. Cause you're 10 and no, you don't. And I don't think I've ever played this around you. And she goes, yeah, I do. And then she like said a couple of lines and I was like, what are you talking about? And then obviously it was TikTok. Yeah. And that blew my mind. And it's made a comeback again. I know. She told me the other day. As we're recording this. She goes, oh, pavement's blowing up on TikTok again. And I'm like, what? Is it the same thing? And she's like, no, it's something with baggy pants and spinning. Yeah. Which she sort of explained to me. Even Mark did it. I saw that. I saw everybody was giving it a little go. Yeah. I'm impressed. Me too. So fun. I kind of love that, though.
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[31:20] Well, it makes sense that they would make a comeback. That was a random song, but it's a random song. It's very odd and quirky and funky. And when you look at its numbers on Spotify, it's incredible. Like the number of downloads or streams it has versus the next song. It's mind-blowing. It is mind-blowing. I hope some of the children explore some more pavement because they would have such a grand old time.
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[31:58] They are obsessed with the 90s right now, so maybe they will. Yes. I have impressed my child with some of this stuff. Yeah. I think she's even impressed about this. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. Well, I've really enjoyed my time with you today. Ditto. Yeah, this has been a lot of fun. It's always good doing this gig right now.
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[32:22] The first time around, I was solo. I did every song in the catalog solo.
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[32:27] Wow. And that was really tough to do because you're sort of talking to an audience that you don't know if they're even there. Uh this time around with the top 50 it's been so great getting to meet people like i've met you know at this point i've met 30 people or 39 people uh-huh yeah 39 people 39 people 29 people whatever anyway you get the point and where are you in the world i'm in toronto canada oh i've been to toronto a bazillion times oh that's great lots of bands there ah any good venues that you can rhyme off um massey hall massey hall is great yeah that's why i saw pavement twice there oh i think i saw damien rice there okay um i think i saw arcade fire there um that would make sense travis okay from scotland um david gray i had a friend i lived with in england and then she lived in glasgow and then she went back to toronto so i would go see her a lot and we go see a lot of the bands that we loved so i love toronto i would live there in a second i wish i could kind of it was a little bit warmer but um uh it's been a spectacular this year we have we had no snow yeah we had three days of snow like through the whole winter so all right And I'm changing my mind, though.
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[33:56] Something awesome. Especially if something happens in November. I said that the last time the creep got in, but...
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[34:06] Yeah, well, you know, you guys have your shit to deal with, for sure. We have our shit up here, too. Yeah. Listen, I will let you know when this episode comes out, because as I mentioned, we are recording this deeply in advance, because I'm a bit of a flake. And I want to make sure I've got all these in the can before I flake out. And that's what I'm trying to do. You sound like you're on top of things, man. I'm impressed. I'm trying. I'm trying. I'm trying. I'm trying. I'm trying. I'm trying. All right. Be well. Stay swell. And wash your goddamn hands.
This week on the program, jD is joined by Russ Romandini to unveil song 21 on the Pavement Top 50 Countdown.
Transcript:
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[0:00] Previously on the Pavement Top 50.
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[0:02] So here we go with Texas Never Whispers. Aiden from Vermont, what are your initial thoughts about this song? Texas Never Whispers is a really cool song. Full disclosure, before you sent me that this would be the song that we were going to be talking about, it honestly wasn't one of the tracks off of Watery the Mystic that really jumped out at me. But after um after you sent it and i knew that we were gonna have to chat about it um i listened to it a little bit deeper and i i definitely found like a new appreciation for it hey.
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[0:38] This is westy from the rock and roll band pavement and you're listening to the countdown.
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[0:46] Hey it's jd here back for another episode of our top 50 countdown for seminal indie rock band and Pavement. Week over week, we're going to count down the 50 essential Pavement tracks that you selected with your very own top 20 ballots. I then tabulated the results using an abacus and an air fryer. Seriously, is there anything this machine doesn't do? How will your favorite song fare in the rankings? You'll need to tune in to find out. So there's that. This week, I'm joined by Pavement superfan, Boston Russ. Boston Russ, how the fuck are you? I'm fan-tastic. and ready to rock. This is great news because it would be a hell of a podcast if you were not ready to rock. That's right. That's right. Thanks so much for having me on. Oh, it's my pleasure. Thanks for doing this. You guys do all the heavy lifting on these, so this is fantastic for me. Let's get right to it. Let's talk about your pavement origin story. Sorry. I think my Pavement Origins story goes back to 1994.
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[1:50] I'm a little late. I'm kind of a late comer in some respects. So back in 94, a good friend of mine, so I got to give him some props. His name was Sean McGovern. We called him Slappy and a few other things. He was in a band in the Boston area called Beeswax. There's some other bands in our area called Beeswax also, but he was in with a few guys. And they did AK-47 and a couple other songs. Sadly, he passed away a couple years ago. He got sick. Oh, shit.
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[2:23] But back in 94, we were good friends, and we hung out a ton, and he just one day gave me this bag of CDs. He left it in my car. He's like, listen to these. And so Crooked Rain was there, and so I put it on, and Silent Kid comes on, and I'm just like.
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[2:41] Who are these guys? And, you know, I played the album some. And it was just, like, I go back and I look at that time. And, like, the album release times were just, like, really, like, fast-moving parts of my life. It was, like, the end of college almost where Crooked Rain came out. It was, like, the end of my junior year. And I was doing a radio show. And I don't know. I, like, never quite linked up to, like, really featuring them prominently. And then wowie zowie comes out like two weeks before i graduated college and you know and get into like the summer in 95 and it's just like it like just blurred and so it's like i heard it like a little bit but didn't like totally like dive in not until bright in the corners came out in 97 and that like i just could not stop playing that album like just word great record and word out and And I wanted to see them in concert. I had been to a bunch of different shows for bands, like Foo Fighters. I got to see Foo Fighters when they were together for two weeks in 1995. Holy shit. They were together. Nobody knew who they were. This is my same friend. So Sean says to me, we got to go see this band play.
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[3:55] Eddie Vedder's wife is doing a percussion band.
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[3:59] And Eddie Vedder is going to play with Mike Watt. And Dave Grohl is going to show up. and do, he's going to play with his new band. And I was like, he's like, you got to go. And it was like this rainy Sunday afternoon. We go to this club called Avalon. So if anybody knows Boston, knows the 90s, we wore Avalon out. I mean, it was like one of the best places to go for rock bands. And Foo Fighters was the middle band. Grohl comes out on lead. And you're like, because you're like, oh, Dave Grohl, new band, going to be a drummer, right? He comes out on lead and does like, and he's holding his guitar tower in hand and it was like that one moment where it's like best ever or total train wreck and he did this as a call comes in with the first lines you know just his voice butter and from there it was it was crazy so like you know i followed like a lot of these bands and went to a lot of these shows and just didn't quite i kept missing pavement and then they broke up and i got old you and me both brother you know and it's like oh and they got together in 2010 and but my My son was like a year old, and I had really moved far from Boston at that point and totally missed the tour. And I was like, ugh, you know, and just kind of feeling like stuck. And so I would listen to, you know, Pavement a lot during the 2010s. They were a big part of Spotify, and I would play them. And I don't know, a couple of years ago...
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[5:26] I was just saying to myself, it would be really great if these guys would really do a tour. Yes. And then it happened. And they came to Boston, and I got sick. No fucking way. I got sick at the end of September. I totally missed the announcement that they were coming, and then got sick, and I couldn't get tickets, and I skipped it. And I was just like, I'm totally beside myself. And I was like, all right. This is okay, because we're going to make up for it. And so, we come to the end of the calendar year in 22, and then one of the best things happened to me. My wife, her best friend calls her up and says, guess what I have? And my wife says, what? And her best friend says, I have an extra free ticket to see Taylor Swift. And my wife is a huge Swifty. All right. Okay? Huge. And, you know, but her best friend lives in Tennessee. And we're in Boston. And her best friend says, the ticket's for Tampa Bay.
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[6:41] Oh, my God. So, because that's where her best friend mom lives, right? Right. So, she's just like, well, I'm going to go from Tennessee to Tampa and go to the show. Do you want to come with me? And and of course you know well i gotta tell my wife i'm like you got it's a ticket of the year i'm like this this is like you got a free ticket to this like yeah you have to go right you have to go so of course like she could i you know she got the ticket we just got her i got her a flight and you know she goes down there and has a ball right they drive they do like a 1300 mile road trip from tennessee to tampa and back they go to the smoky mountains they have like the best time ever right so right after that the ticket um you know i got out of the plane ticket, the pavement in iceland announcement comes oh yes and i'm like pavement iceland and i turned 50 and i'm like she's like, You have to do that.
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[7:40] That is a great wife. Yeah. She is fantastic. And I'm like, I do have to do this, don't I? She's like, I think you do. And I'm like, it's three shows. I'm like, they'll play all the songs. They have to play all the songs just to vote because it's three shows in a row. Yeah. So I went ahead and I ended up booking the trip. And so this was like you know late late i think the release was like late january so like early february it was like a couple of weeks after they released the thing i i got tickets but i still got like fifth row and i got second row for like the last show i got really good tickets they were they were a little slow to sell out of the gate but and thankful for me because you know i'm like so i just i got a flight the flights were very reasonable and so got a flight and just said we're doing this thing. So as the year ticks by, I'm getting ready, getting ready, getting ready. And then I think it was sometime in late June, my birthday passed and all this, getting ready for the trip. And then I get the big announcement that says, in Iceland, they're going to do a walking tour with the band. I did not know this. yeah they put out a walking tour with the band so uh steve and bob participated in the walking tour.
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[9:02] Um so um oh and and spiral also of course um so it was the three of them and then you would buy a record and and buy the tour uh the walk tour so 90 minutes around reykjavik um and there was a host and then they would go ahead and talk about, you know, they would just talk about the musical history of Iceland, and then you could walk around and get to meet the pavement guys. That's fantastic. There were 50 tickets, went on sale at noon. My hand was like on that button, and I was number 21. That's amazing. I could not believe I got a ticket. It and i i you know again i was like is i'm like is this hyping up to be the best trip ever i'm like sounds like i'm like what's happening here and so now we're leading up to the trip the trips at the end of july they did the shows at the end of july so sometime in july i'm on reddit i'm on the pavement channel and um sky posts up and he says who's going to iceland let's form a group, so I'm like great I'm like how about me I'm like I'm going he says hi I'm Mike from DC and I'm like I'm Russell from Boston.
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[10:26] So, I jump in. Another guy, Steve from Milwaukee, jumps in and says to me, so, what do you think the weather's going to be like? I'm like, maybe like a mild Boston winter. Unfortunately, to me and Steve, that meant two different things. Sorry, Steve. Because I ended up considering that to be a little chilly. But I went a little cold. So, it was pretty funny. And so, slowly, this little group of people forms on Reddit and then goes over to WhatsApp. So the day comes, finally go ahead and fly out. Do the flight, no problem, get there. And then when you fly into Keflavik Airport, it's about 45 minutes from Reykjavik, you go and take a bus. Okay. And so, guy sits across from me, he's also from Massachusetts. His name's Curtis, and I strike up a conversation with him. And halfway through the conversation, He's like, by the way, are you here for pavement? And I'm like, yes. He's like, what gives me away? He's like, you know, you're a certain age, traveling by yourself. He's like, me too. I figured you were here for the shows.
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[11:35] And I'm like, I'm on the bus and I'm not even there yet. And we're already way off and running. So we get to the Thursday show, and the moment of truth comes, and I'm walking down to Harpa Concert Hall. It's a huge glass structure. It's beautiful. If you ever see the pictures online, it was amazing. Beautiful place to play. And so I'm walking, and I'm within sight distance of the concert hall. I've already spent the day there. Reykjavik's beautiful. People are nice. Everybody's very relaxed.
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[12:16] And guess who walks right by me is Mark Eibold. Really? Yep. Just walking to the venue. I'm walking to the venue. He's walking away from it. He's probably going out for maybe a quick bite to eat or something. something, you know, we got a little, we had, you know, time before they went on. He walks right by me and I'm like, Mark. And he turned around and I told him hello. And I said, you know, I was here for the shows and everything. He took a quick picture with me and, you know, and that was that. But I got to meet him and I was like, all right, I got to meet Mark. He is the elusive one. He is, he is elusive. And so, but I got to meet him and got a photo and, I mean, super nice. You know, it was like 90 seconds tops, you know, because I just didn't want to take up his time. I mean, you know, he's getting ready for the show and everything. So I was happy for that. And I went up to the concert hall and everybody just started to meet. And it was funny because I think it was Mike in the group said, Yeah.
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[13:23] Okay, so here's the moment of truth. How are we all going to know, you know, who each other are since we don't know each other? Good call. So I said, all right, I'm going to go stand by one of the tables. I'm wearing bright blue pumas. You can't miss me. Because I'm also wearing this, like, bright vest. I tend to wear bright clothing sometimes. And so, like, I got this vest and I got this, like, hat and pom-pom and this whole getup. Can't miss me. I mean, I'm like screaming and everybody's dressed in like black and Reykjavik. So I'm like, I really stick out.
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[13:57] I'm like, can't miss me. And so I think like the first guy that comes over is Steve and Steve's like, Russ. And I'm like, hi. And so that just kind of like broke the ice for everybody and people started to gravitate over. And, you know, like we're having a couple of beers. We're talking at the shows, you know, and just met some like really great people, you know, the merch tables there. And we're talking, you know, other people got tickets for the walk on Friday and it was amazing. And so one of the guys, Eric from New Jersey, Eric says to me, I said, you know, I got Crooked Rain with the tour. I said, but I really wanted Wowie Zowie. He's like, why don't you just buy it at the merch table, bring it with you tomorrow. They'll just sign it. I'm like, genius. Yeah. So I did that, and that ended up working out very well, because they signed both albums. So solid piece of advice from Eric. And so we did the show, and it was fantastic. They started off with Grounded, which is one of my favorites. Damn. And it was really great, because when they just break into Grounded, it's like...
Track 3:
[15:15] I made it, you know, and, you know, the, the, the months leading up to that were a little difficult. My mom was pretty sick. She's, you know, had, she had some tough moments last year and, uh, it was just like really emotional. I was like, holy crap. I like, I really did it. I mean, this was like 30 years in the making. Yeah. And I just, it was, you know, and it's like when you see that like pavement in Iceland thing and it's like, you look at that and it's like a lot of times you just look at those types of things and then it's like, oh, it should do And you don't end up doing it, you know, for all the reasons to not go and for all the reasons to go. And it's like, I'm here, here.
Track 3:
[15:59] And it was just amazing. I bet. It was just really great. They did Summer Babe. And, you know, by then, we're like, we're all friends. And, like, we're all yelling all the lyrics to the songs. And, you know, everybody's just, like, carrying on, having a good time. And, you know, go out to the bars after we're out late, having drinks. And everybody's, you know, really just getting to meet each other and have fun and, you know, learn where everybody's from. I mean, people came from Los Angeles, Jersey, D.C. There were people from Europe, Berlin, and England, and all these places. All these people just converged, and they all came by themselves. Really? Yep. Most people weren't by themselves. They all came by themselves. Wow. And so there was this group of people that had all come by themselves. And now it was like we started to become like this little unit. So now Friday... Friday was like really one of the highlights of the trip because we had the pavement walk and it was really, it was just great.
Track 3:
[17:19] I'll send you a copy of this picture, but like, so I bring Wowie Zowie and I mentioned how I like to dress up in bright colors and my whole get up for the day basically matched the album cover. And i didn't plan it that way but i had like you could see like my hooded sweatshirt and i wore this like green hooded sweatshirt and this you know in a shirt and my vest and hat and everything were all like blue and green and so and i had green puma sneakers like the old you know uh the old sneakers all like i'm like blue and green head to toe right and so i show up the next morning and everybody's looking at me and i'm like hey wowie zowie everybody just couldn't believe it and so you know steve west and spiral come up to me and they're like how you doing and i'm like i'm like i'm so glad to be here and they took a picture with me like right away they were like the nicest and um it was great i got to meet uh bob nastanovich and and his wife carly um who who I get to be really good friends with. She was absolutely amazing. So there's more interacting to come. So we go on the pavement walk.
Track 3:
[18:40] And it's hosted by a guy from Iceland. And so one of my favorite jokes on the whole trip gets set up, right? So we're walking through Iceland, and he's like, oh, this is where Bjork lived, and this is where this was, and this is what happened here and all of these spots. And then we get to this condominium.
Track 3:
[19:04] And, you know, he's standing in front of it and gets everybody up there and says, now this, this is, used to be the rock and roll club. He's like, it looks very clean now, but back in the late 80s and early 90s, this is where we would come and we would write songs, we would play songs. This was the club. This was it right here. This is the spot. He's like, this was everything right in this spot. He's like, and we used to. And then he said the thing that just made my eyes go like big bug wide open. And he said to me, we used to get blackout drunk. And I'm like and then there was like this kind of pause which I love because it just kind of sets me up and I have this sense of humor and I just kind of raised my hand and I said.
Track 3:
[20:11] Did you say that you got blackout drunk here? And he's like yeah and I said and, But this is your old club, right? And he said, yeah. And so I said, so now that it's closed on weekends and shut for good, would you consider this your own personal Hall of Fame? And Steve West is kind of looking at me and then all of a sudden just looks straight down to the ground like really hard. And you hear like three people chuckling in the background who get the joke and i'm sure the people got it but like you know maybe it wasn't their their sense of humor um and i just felt like i'm like he and he didn't get the joke which just to me made it like that much better it made it even better and i was just like you know it was great and so my my friend steve comes up. He's from the Midwest and has this very straight sense of humor. And he's like.
Track 3:
[21:24] Your joke earlier, that was good. Which I loved. He's just like the perfect straight man. It was so good. It was so good. And so we go on the rest of the walk and I got to meet Bob a little bit more. I got to meet Carly. But then I got probably about five minutes to walk with Spiral. And I got to tell Spiral like how much I loved Date with Ikea which is just like probably, it's definitely in my top five I think I submit it as like number three on my list because I just love that song they're just like songs that just really resonate with me it always makes me smile I love playing the John Peel version because it's just it's quicker and it just really hits every time and it's just funny because like.
Track 3:
[22:15] I became part of like team Spiral, right? Because like when I would go to the shows, I would stand like on Spiral's side. Like a lot of people buy tickets and stand to the left where Malk is. Yeah. But I like to stand to the right because I can see Spiral, I can see Bob, and I can see Mark and Steve very easily. And I can still see Malk and, you know, and Eyebold and everybody else. But like, you know, Mark's, you know, Moloch stands so far over, you know, but a lot of people gravitate over there. So it's good. And, you know, so, I mean, it was just, just amazing. And did you get to hear them play Date with Ikea? They did. They played it Friday night. They played it. I said, he's like, yeah, he's like, but we'll play it. He's like, we'll play it. And you get to hear it. And, and then, so we went and we went back and they did autographs. We got to meet them. They were just fantastic. They were all just so nice. I mean, everybody was generous with their time. I mean. That was my experience as well. Like, just so gracious and so accommodating. Yeah.
Track 3:
[23:31] Um, and so it was like, okay, where do we go from here? We did the Saturday show. I did like all, you know, I did some tours. I did Blue Lagoon, which is now like closed, you know, and those are heartbreaking every time we see like the volcano eruption stuff. And, you know, I feel for the people in that area. Cause like, oh, the people were so nice. I mean, just walking around Reykjavik, it was like, so, it was just so great. Cause everybody was like so relaxed. I mean, I was walking down the street one day and I had some napkins kind of coming out of my pocket and somebody comes up to me and he's like, your money. And I'm like, oh, thanks. It's just napkins, but thank you. You know, like, you know, and like, you know, where I live, it's like, everybody would be like, boop, I'll take that, thanks, and keep walking, you know, or let it fly away and, you know, all that. But, you know, we just had this crew and we would get, you know, we got together for drinks on the last Sunday and, you know, and people said their goodbyes and stuff. And it was just, it was great. But everybody's like, so who's going to Brooklyn? Because the tour wrapped up in Brooklyn in September. So in like six, seven weeks later, a lot of us went to Brooklyn.
Track 3:
[24:52] Jesus Christ. So because they had put the announcement out that the tickets were going to come out. And I told my wife, I'm like, I got to do one more. I just feel like I'm really called to just, I got to go to the last show. Got to go to the last. So I bought two tickets and I called, I have a twin sister. and I called my twin sister Andrea and I said.
Track 3:
[25:17] Because she used to go to all the shows with me. And she took me to Foo Fighters for our birthday. Like one of her birthday presents to me, we went to see Foo Fighters in Laconia, New Hampshire. Turned back the clock and it was a great time. So I said, well, you did Foo Fighters. I said, come to Brooklyn with me because she loves going to New York. I said, come to Brooklyn and let's go to Pavement. She's like, all right, let's do it. So I bought the tickets. And then we were coming up to the shows, and the only song I didn't hear in Iceland that I absolutely had to hear was Elevate Me Later and couldn't stop talking about it. Um so we get to um we get to brooklyn uh the.
Track 3:
[26:06] Week of the it was monday september 11th was the first show and everybody did the first show and i had friends there like and now everybody's like totally into it people know each other and and my friend eric the guy from new jersey was unbelievable and basically was just like posting in the chat like okay they're doing this song now Now they're doing this song. Now they're doing this song. And like some people would like post videos into the chat. Somebody tried to do a little live. I mean, like, I mean, the time that people were investing in sharing the information with everybody else was just wild. So I'm just like, I was like, I'm getting a ticket for Wednesday because it wasn't sold out yet. And I was like, I'm buying a ticket for Wednesday. And I worked it out with my sister where we were going to take the train together. And then she's like, I'll just buy a bus ticket. You meet me there and I'm like, I'm going, I'm going out on the train a day early and I'm going to the Wednesday show too. So I get to the Wednesday show and, um, cause now it's like, I'm in it now. Now it's like a minute. So I got tickets for the last two shows. I had to. And, um, I'm like, it was like really just called to do it because I got there, you know, I met up with Steve and Mike and, and everybody and, and, and it was wonderful seeing everybody, um, and met new people too, like, uh, Wes from Chicago, who was really great. And he ended up cutting some videos and some other folks.
Track 3:
[27:36] But they ended up doing Elevate Me Later on the Wednesday show. It was the only time in the whole tour, the whole year and a half tour, that they played Elevate Me Later. Holy shit. And they did. You were there for it. I was there for it. I couldn't believe it. Because they wrote it out as LS2 on the play sheet. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, are they going to play it? Because and my friend Wes is like well there's like two versions of it he's like so he's like I think so but maybe and then like they kicked into it and I'm like that's my entrance song, and it was like I was like in a hyper trance for like the first 20 seconds of it because like I couldn't believe they were finally playing it and it came out great it was amazing Rebecca Clay Cole, who was there doing the organ work on the tour, her voice on the backing vocal was just awesome with everybody else. It's a great version. It really needs to be on Spotify.
Track 3:
[28:38] Well, I hope we get some live records at some point from this tour. They were taking video and all kinds of stuff. So I am hoping that they do some live work with it. And if we get that out, produce, it would be super great. Um, so I mean, it was really great. Uh, I mean, um, we, you know, at, at the end of the Wednesday show, uh, we went to the bar across the street and we were having beers. We kind of closed that place down and then a spiral runs out and, um, you know, and he's just like booking it for his Uber. Right. Cause I mean, you know, there's still like, you know, probably 20, 20 of us there hanging out and he's like, yeah, Hey, I'll see you guys. And I'm like, hey, Spiral, it's me from Iceland. And he's like, wait, I remember you. And I'm like, knock back. And I'm like, oh, my friends heard that. And it was just like frivolity because it was just, it was too crazy. And I gave him a high five. He gave me a quick hug and he jetted off into his Uber. And I'm just like, my whole night was made. I guess so. You know, and then like it couldn't get any better except Steve Malkmus walked out and was hanging out on the corner waiting for his Uber. And he's just standing there and he's talking to like you know somebody else he was with and we're all standing there like diagonally across the street from Malk and he's just standing there and another friend of mine says.
Track 3:
[30:07] Russell, what do we do? And I'm like, we go up to him. And so like, I just started walking across the street and then like, I just like went right after, you know, and, and patiently waited for him to finish this conversation. And I'm like, hello. And I'm wearing my Reykjavik t-shirt, except it says Reykjavik in Japanese. And one of our other friends is Japanese in the group. And when she saw me and she walked into the bar, she was the only person who laughed at me because she's like, Like, your t-shirt says Reykjavik.
Track 3:
[30:35] I mean, the moments were just, like, amazing. They were all, like, it felt like every moment was like that. And then, so, like, Stephen was the only person I hadn't met. And, you know, again, super gracious, took some photos, you know, and, you know, I didn't take too much of his time because, you know, the rest of my friends all got time to meet him before his ride showed up. And that was that. You know, we did the Thursday show also. And, you know, we got to say goodbye to the band and to everybody else. And it was something else.
Track 3:
[31:09] And, you know, one last story that my friend Mike from D.C. is very fond of. So when we got back from Iceland, I had the picture with me dressed up in the Wowie Zowie outfit. And I have a picture. When we did the record signing, it was at 12 Tonar. Which is one of the record shops in Reykjavik. So in the back, they have this wall with graffiti, and it's all color. So I'm in my color outfit, and it's all color. And it's this really cool photo that came out, and you could see everything, the sneakers, the whole nine yards, right? And so I posted it on Twitter, and I said, you know, I posted it to Bob and Carly and Spiral, and said, thank you so much for everything. And Spiral wrote back and called me a legend. And that just like broke my friend Mike. He's like, he's like, hold up, hold up, hold up. He's like, do I have that right? He's like, did you call Spiral a legend or did he call you a legend? I'm like.
Track 3:
[32:18] He called me a legend. That's amazing. And Mike is like, why? Why did he call you a legend? He's like, what don't I know about you, Russell? And I'm like. I wear bright colors. Yeah. I mean, you know, I just, I'm like, I don't know, Mike. You know, I'm thankful he did that, you know. Oh, God, that's amazing. It was just, it's wild. It's out on the interwebs, you know, and it makes me smile. There are just so many pieces that made me smile. At me on Twitter. At me on Twitter with the photo. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I would love to see it. Yeah, I'm happy to share it. So a quick shout out to the whole crew here. So Steve, Mike, Eric, Liz from England, Sasha, Chiaki, Curtis, Chris from Berlin, Manny and Liza, Wes Stevens, Tony, Bacon, and a very large shout out to the man from Reykjavik himself.
Track 3:
[33:21] Elvar, Elvarsson, who was, you know, we all became friends with Elvar when we were in Reykjavik, and he was the only person in our group from Iceland. And I love his name because, Because in Boston, we always swear at people. And Elvar's name is Elvar, Elvar's son. So he's son of an Elvar. I mean, in our best Boston. And he's such a bright personality, a wonderful guy. He does a podcast called Peeling the Onion. So a shout out to him. And if anybody's out there, it's on Spotify. And he covers a lot of punk rock origins and stuff. So huge shout out to Elvar. And to all the people who were there for Iceland and Brooklyn, my sister, of course, you know, and my family for putting up with the time while I'm away and the incessant playing of the pavement. And, you know, but my son has now kind of become kind of a fan a little bit. Done good work. Yeah, we're driving around. You know, he has his pavement favorites too, which makes me smile. So it's, you know, some good dad work there. So I'm trying. I'm trying.
Track 3:
[34:39] Well, what do you say we flip the record here and play song 21 and then come back and have a little talk about that? Sounds good. I'm ready for a B-side. All right, let's do it. We'll be back after this.
Track 1:
[34:53] Hey, this is Bob Mustanovich from Pavement. Thanks for listening. And now on with a countdown. 21.
Track 3:
[38:08] Today's song is the second song from Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain to appear on the countdown thus far. Today, we're talking all about number 21, Cut Your Hair. Russell, talk to me about your relationship with this song. I love this song, you know, for a few reasons. One, I think because, you know, it's ubiquitous. And when I talk about Pavement to the rest of the free world people are like, I don't remember that band, and if I say cut your hair people are like, yeah I remember that and I think it's great that there's a song that helps people kind of make that connection.
Track 3:
[38:57] Even though their relationship to the band isn't as deep as ours right um i also love it because like 90s russ had the best hair now for those you know for all my friends and family that know me my my hair is gone now and for all my recent friends all they know is you know russ has no hair but 90s russ and my 90s friends or people People that grew up with me know that like in college, they used to call me Mr. Perfect Hair or the guy with the hair. And my hair kind of came off to the left and it would – on the side, it came all the way around and it didn't move.
Track 3:
[39:43] It did not move. And it would just come down in the front and it was always perfect no matter like when you saw me. I could roll to the cafeteria at 8 a.m., and it had to be just right. It was always on. And people used to try to do all kinds of stuff to mess it up, and it was his own airtight defense system. It was awesome. It was part of me. You wouldn't see me without it. I didn't have the confidence back then to not have it. Be just so um it was just you know it was part of kind of life in my 20s so like you know the hair was it was just that was it wherever i was i was always able to make sure like i could find an outlet and uh blow dry my hair and uh and make it just so so it was um it was hilarious uh so So, you know, I love the song, and the song is just...
Track 3:
[40:53] You know, it's everything about, you know, kind of just like that, being perfect. It's like, you have to be so packaged and so, you know, you have to have that image just so. You know, like back in the day when we had the Andre Agassi commercials, image is everything. And that's what Cut Your Hair says to me. It's like, image is everything. Thing like if you're gonna go far as a band like you know like you have to have like this whatever it is packaged image that record company wants you to follow in order for your career to advance and and you can't really be yourself you know um that's how i i see the song is it's almost like It's a song of conformity. If you don't fit the image, you won't move forward. And it's interesting that Cut Your Hair is on Crooked Rain, which really propelled their career.
Track 3:
[41:59] Absolutely. And kind of got them to the point where the next record really could have put them up and over. And they come out with Wowie Zowie, which is really, people say it's equivalent to Weezer Pinkerton. Right. Yeah, I can see that. Which I loved, and it really kind of got a very cool reception. You know but like if you look at the like how everybody rated it it was like this album's amazing and i'm like well yeah that album is amazing the same thing with like wow he's out where you like it you know if as people reviewed it a lot of people didn't like it and some people like really loved it but when you come back and listen to wow he's out where you like it, You know, it was growing your hair. They made the record they wanted to make, even though it didn't quite conform to what the record companies necessarily wanted.
Track 3:
[43:03] You know, and they made that art what they wanted it to be. And so that's kind of like what Cut Your Hair kind of means to me, you know? I love it. Tension and Fame, South Korea.
Track 3:
[43:23] I mean, you know, it's a fun song. It's, you know, it's really light and peppy. You know, it's a song when you go to the show, you know, you're going to hear it, you know, more often than not, you know. And if they, when they played four shows, I think they left it out once, you know, maybe twice. But when we got to Brooklyn, they were really playing like real deep cuts. I mean, we got to hear like, they emptied the cupboards in Brooklyn and that was great. We got a lot of, hearing Half a Canyon and Pueblo and those kinds of songs were really great. But, you know, cut your hair, you know you're going to hear it. But, you know, like, it's fun. And sometimes it can be that song where it's just like, oh, you know, I don't know if I want to hear it because it is so popular, you know, and it is, you know, uniquely Pavement. And it's, you know, like, I want to hear other songs. But it was really interesting because when you gave me the opportunity to come on and talk about it, and I'm like, it really is a great song. It is a great song. You know? And...
Track 3:
[44:42] You know, I saw out on Reddit, I think it was last week, there's now a beer named after it called The Second Drummer Drowned. Dude, interesting story. The guy who posted that, I just said nonchalant, I said, oh man, it's too bad you couldn't ship one here. And then he DM'd me, got my address, and he is shipping one to me. That is outstanding. It is so fucking cool, and I believe his name is, oh shit, I think it's Mark. I will amend this at some point and make sure that he gets the shout out he deserves. But this leads me to an interesting question for you talking about, you know, this song and the fact that some people can dismiss it because it was their popular hit. It had, you know, it was on MTV rotation, like the music video.
Track 3:
[45:44] So is this song at 21, is it properly rated? Is it overrated? Is it underrated? What do you think? 21, we're into the great tracks now. Not to say that the whole 50 isn't great, but we're starting to get down to the nitty gritty. Be i have to i'm gonna say i was surprised when you told me that i when i was at 21, i did not expect to see cut your hair here me neither but i understand it in a way and so i will you know i'll share a little bit of my own um you know submission i ranked elevate Elevate Me Later, number one, for a very specific reason. I wanted the points for it because I wanted it to be somewhere in the top 50 because I love it. And so when we say, okay, it's going to be the top 50 countdown, I think about the math behind it and goes into it. So I think that Cut Your Hair kind of gets knocked down a little bit because...
Track 3:
[47:02] Everyone just assumes it's going to be there. Oh, that's a good call. Okay. So it's kind of like that old Simpsons episode where Bart Simpson, and this is like season one where Bart Simpson runs for class president against Martin Prince. And everybody thinks Bart's going to win and nobody votes for him. And only Martin Prince wins two to nothing because him and his only friend voted for Martin Prince. So it was two nothing Martin Prince. That was it. And Martin won. And everybody's like, nobody voted for Bart. So I feel like cut your hair as Bart. I mean, nobody really voted for it because everybody would just count on it being in everybody's highly ranked list. And here it is at 21.
Track 3:
[47:40] You're probably bang on the money, man. You know, that's an interesting take. I hadn't really considered that, but I think that's a very solid take. I mean, because I ranked some other songs a little bit higher because I wanted to make sure they made the cut. Yeah. And I put Elevate Me Later number one because I asked for it so much amongst my friends. It's tied to me now. And every time I hear it, I put it on right before we came on just to hype me up because it always makes me smile. but Grounded and then Date With Ikea were my top three. And Date With Ikea, for me, that was properly rated because I love that song. And having that time with Spiral, those few minutes with him in Reykjavik is something I will never forget. Of course. It's tied to it between that and the Twitter thing and the fact that he remembered me in the shows and Brooklyn and all that, I'm definitely like Team Spiral and everybody ribs me for that, good-naturedly, because it's just funny. And, you know, but I think that's- He's a gem, man. He's a gem. He's come on five times. Really? Yeah. He's been on five times. Amazing. Amazing. Yeah. I get it. I mean, they've all been great, you know. And a special shout out, too, to Carly, who's Bob's wife.
Track 3:
[49:10] We chat occasionally on Twitter and say, hi, how are you? And even during the shows, she would say hi to me and she'd say, hey, I love your energy. And like she was taping, she was videotaping the shows on her phone. And she's like, you know, at like certain intervals, she would just like hand me her phone. She's like, you tape this. And so like, I'm like watching the concert and I'm like holding up her phone, making sure I get good footage for her. It was hilarious. I mean, like the stuff that just happened was just like, I'm like, how am I even doing this? Like, why? Like, you know, why have I been chosen to kind of be in the middle of all of this? I had a very similar vibe when I did my UK trip. I had a very similar vibe. It was just like, who am I? What fucking planet is this right now? Right, right, right. This is my favorite band, and I'm following them around, and I'm getting backstage, and they know me. Like, this is so cool. Right, right. It's like, this can't be happening. That's right. And the whole Iceland trip was like, you know, like people talk about like, oh, I had this trip and everything went wrong. The Iceland trip was everything went right. Everything that could have happened that, you know, that could have turned into a positive turned into a positive. And even the little setbacks I had, like, were so quickly resolved, usually by the kindness of strangers or some good fortune.
Track 3:
[50:38] It was just amazing how well everything went, and really both trips. I mean, it was the time. I had a wonderful time. Well, you were owed it, I think. And after missing them a few times, I'm glad you got to resolve your story that way. Is there anything other than the Icelandic Gentleman's podcast that you want to plug while you're here? Um no I I think I just want to plug my friends one more time for everybody in those groups you know Steve, Mike, Eric you know all those guys everybody is like just the nicest you know it's like just a quick story like you know Eric bought merchandise for us in Brooklyn and then shipped it home to all of us Wow. And he's like, just Venmo me.
Track 3:
[51:37] Like, that kind of generosity of his time and trust and everything else. Just top shelf. And everybody was like that. Mike was like that. Steve was like that. I've had a good fortune to see Steve a few times, and we've been able to hang out. And even though he's out in the Midwest, we've been able to connect a few times. Oh, that's brilliant. You know, just all the people just, it made it so great. And it just turned into this giant snowball of good that just kept rolling downhill and just kept getting better, bigger. More people came into the fold. Everywhere we went, more people came in. It was amazing how welcoming everybody was and all the people that we met, how great they were. Keep in mind if you ever do a reunion. Oh, 100%. I'll hit you up on Twitter. And I'm sure we'll wind up somewhere at some point. That would be awesome. You know, what I'd really love is like.
Track 3:
[52:39] One more like place where like iceland where they played three shows yeah you know brooklyn they played four shows like they're doing a few south america shows it's kind of tough but it's like one show in one location at a big festival and like it's hard to like kind of do that but if they played like three shows somewhere where we could just show up and and like kind of recreate them take over and recreate the magic and yeah and make some new stories and spend that time I'm, I would just, I would love that. And I, you know, I don't know. It seems like it's going to be a while, if ever, before they really say, we'll, we'll do that again.
Track 3:
[53:17] We'll see. We'll see. Like, I don't know. Like, I think SM is getting ready to release. And maybe by the time this comes out, he will have made an announcement of some sort. So we'll get some new Jicks material, SM and the Jicks, or maybe another, like his last two records have been just him so maybe it'll be just him but i wouldn't be shocked if we see them on the road again because it's uh it's fun for them it's relatively lucrative you know like the the touring market is is a good thing and they've got a loyal fan base you know they do i mean my here's my call this is just this is my take um another person i got to meet on the the Iceland trip, was his daughter, Sunday, who's – Sunday's about 15 years old now. And she was super nice. And I connected with her a little bit because that's my son's age. So, like, I got the whole thing, you know, I understood kind of, like, where she was coming from because that's my son's age.
Track 3:
[54:22] And, you know, my dad –, piece kind of raised up when we talk about, are they going to hit the road again? I think when Sunday goes to college, I think that at that point, we'll have a chance for them to maybe come back out. But I get the feeling like he'll do the dad thing. She'll get through high school. His wife is obviously, we know she's an accomplished artist. She has her career. He'll make time for her. There'll be that balance of family and everything else. And then when So when Sunday's off to her next adventure, everybody will probably say, one more ride.
Track 3:
[55:04] That'd be great. So I'm thinking maybe 2027, we'll gas up the truck and we'll make it count, I think, by then. Well, if they wait until 2029, that would be 40 years, right? Yeah. 40 years since the band formed. I hope they don't go that long, but you know. Yeah. I hope so too. Yeah. You know, um, and that's where like kind of the, the old guy in me says, let's get out there before we can't. Yeah. Well, on that note, on that, uh, harrowing note, um, uh, it's been a pleasure to have you on, uh, Boston Russ. Uh, this has been a delight. I'm so glad your story turned out the way it did. That's the kind of feel-good stories we do here on Meeting Malcomus. So, you know, kudos to you. That's what I got for you this week. So tune in next week for song number 20. That's right. We're in to the top 20. In the meantime, wash your goddamn hands.
Track 1:
[56:12] Thanks for listening to Meeting Malcomus, a pavement podcast. Podcast, where we count down the top 50 pavement tracks as selected by you. If you've got questions or concerns, please shoot me an email, jd at meetingmalkinist.com.
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