Hi there, welcome to the Biz Communication Show. I’m your host, Bill Lampton, the Biz Communication Guy, bringing you tips and strategies that will boost your business. And these tips and strategies come from my conversation with a very qualified guest and what we share will, as I said, benefit you when you apply these tips and strategies.

Coming to us today from the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex, Melinda Marcus. Melinda Marcus is a body language expert who shows leaders how to speed read people. That sounds interesting. And influence decisions. As a result, our clients have won top career positions, improved team dynamics, and closed multimillion dollar deals. Melinda trained directly with a former special agent who trained the FBI. And she is only one of five people globally who attained the highest body language certification in his master program. She also earned a master’s in communication from SMU and a psychology degree with honors from Northwestern University. Melinda Marcus is in demand as a keynote speaker at national events and is an award winning writer. Her book, Read the Zoom, shows you how to read people in your next meeting. So I know you will join me in welcoming Melinda Marcus.

Hello, Melinda.

Hey, Bill. Thanks for having me.

Oh, absolutely delighted to host you. And at the end of that introduction, and it’s a brief introduction because I know there’s much more that you have qualified in and we could go over, but we needed to get to this instead. At the conclusion of the introduction, we mentioned your book, Read the Zoom. And ironically, it was just this morning I was talking with an executive recruiter friend who’s been an executive recruiter for about three decades. And he was pointing out to me that so many, a large proportion of job interviews now are not taking place on site, but they’re taking place on Zoom, which means that we need to know how to come across in this way that it still remains fairly new. And some of the people who are applying for jobs or who want to host Zoom really have no specialized training in it. So we’re relying on you today for some tips. Tell us how to read the Zoom, please.

Okay. Well, first of all, part of reading the Zoom is that we have this real estate, right, sort of from chest up. And that’s the exact same view we have in person if you’re looking across a conference room table, a desk, or a restaurant table where a lot of business deals and relationships are developed as well. So everything that you’ll learn in the book also applies in person. But the key is, is that there’s a lot of information that’s beyond the words. And that has to do with the nonverbals that will be with what’s going on facial expression, body language, position, whether somebody’s here, here, and what you notice in terms of what triggers the changes. So that can give you a lot of information that they may not volunteer with their words. And those insights can make the difference between if it’s a job interview, gaining consideration, which is what we all want, right, and being tossed aside as not somebody who fits. So it’s a critical piece to pick up how people are responding to what you have to say. So you know when you have buy-in and you know when you have maybe a stress point or objection that you need to overcome.

When you’retraining someone on this, what steps do you take them through? So the first step is I do an assessment by, generally I have not met them before, we may have had just a phone call, and I do an interview with them. And then I do the assessment on what they’re saying in terms of their messaging, their nonverbals, their storytelling, all of those things so that I can help them and we can customize how we do the coaching.

Now I will tell you something kind of exciting: since, obviously, there’s a limit to how many people I can personally coach one-on-one, I’m getting ready to launch an online course that will be modules that’ll take people about 85% of the way there and help a lot more people get jobs than I could touch if I was doing actual engagements with each one of them individually.

Ah, well tell us two things, please. Tell us, first of all, how to access the book, and then also how can we register for this online Zoom training session that you’re talking about?

Okay, well the book, it’s called Read the Zoom. You’ll notice it says Read the Room and Room is crossed out because when I started writing this book, it was before 2020 and COVID, and all of a sudden nobody was in the room. So it became Read the Zoom and you can get it at readthezoom.com. So that’s the only place to buy it. Or if you go to my website, which is influenceadvisors.com, you can also, there’s a link there if you want to go that way. So either of those work.

The course has not launched yet, but I’ve done all the recordings on role-playing with real people who are being interviewed by me, and then I give what they could do to improve and you see the before and after. So that’ll probably launch in, if you’re on LinkedIn, be sure to connect with me because I’m going to probably mainly launch that there and then there’ll be other things, ways to get to it. But that’s the main one I’ll be using is LinkedIn. You can find me under Melinda Marcus and just let me know that you heard me with Bill so that I’ll know who you are.

That sounds fascinating. And one of the items, of course, that you and I have to work with, I’m a speech coach and you’re helping people prepare for presentations of different kinds. One of the items we nearly always have to work with is fear of the camera. People I’ve dealt with, many people on stage fright where we’re facing audiences, but now we have a new fear that has come in and that’s fear of the camera.

And there are a couple of points I make and I’m curious to know how you feel about them:

I say that the camera doesn’t lie so that it’s a good training device. If you were to say to me, if I’d given you a presentation, you say, well, Bill, you did this, this, and this, and I would be thinking or saying, oh, no, I didn’t, but there’s the camera. That’s a different thing. The camera does not lie.

The second point I make is that because the camera does not lie, it also can become reassuring for us because there are so many times that we’re before a camera and we’re thinking, oh, gosh, I’m really blowing it. I’m really goofing it. I’ve made all these mistakes. And then when you play it back, it’s almost benign compared to all the fears that you had.

And, of course, I’ll give another example here. Sometimes when we are on camera, we’re trying to think of what to say, we pause. That pause just seems endless to us. But when we play it back, guess what? It was a couple of seconds and it looked quite natural.

So reflect on those points for me and for us, please. The camera doesn’t lie and it also can have some very positive feedback for us.

I totally agree with that. And that’s particularly if you have permission to record it. Otherwise, while the camera is on you, if it’s not recording, you can’t go back and look at what you did. So I think it’s a great tool. And particularly if you’re going to give a presentation, it’s a nice thing to have a meeting just with yourself and record it so that youcan see what you’re doing and how you’re sounding. And nobody sees it but you. So it’s a great training tool. So I think that’s great. I will say that one of the things that I think is somewhat problematic is since we’ve all been using virtual meetings now for probably since 2020, so we’re going on close to six years, right, in 2026. I think people are a little too casual with what they’re doing on camera. They forgot about the camera, and sometimes they’re just unaware that they’re doing things that are not leaving the best impression because they’re not as, I would say, self-conscious about how they’re coming across as they would be if they were in person in the room.

So you see a lot of times on Zoom, and I’m going to illustrate it for you, where when people are listening, they’re just kind of like, and they don’t realize they’re listening, but it looks like they’re not engaged. It’s not necessarily the most flattering expression on their face. So I like people to be more self-conscious about how they’re coming across. And in virtual meetings, you can see at least a small screen of what you look like. So you want to show engagement. You want to show interest. And those are things that I think are incredibly important.

I also think you need to pay attention to nonverbals, which are not just your face and body. They are also your vocal pattern and what you’re wearing, how your hair looks. All of those things that are appearance-related make a very big impression before you ever open your mouth. And people are at least subconsciously making decisions on whether they can trust you or whether you’re an authority or a leader based on that appearance piece. And I think that you can be a little too casual with that and unnecessarily hurt your image.

Sometimes today I’m thinking you anticipate my questions because you bring up something I know that our audience wants guidance on. We’re all aware of how clothing styles have changed dramatically. I can still remember so well, Melinda, the first time probably 20 or so years ago, the first time I boarded a commercial flight as a passenger and I was not wearing a tie. Because up until that time, practically every professional male was wearing a coat and tie. The trend became so obvious that I said, well, I might as well go with the flow. And even though I had convinced myself that this was the norm now, I felt quite awkward the first few times I did that.

Okay, so here we are talking now about being on Zoom. And there has to be a happy medium there sometime. You don’t have to wear a tux or an evening gown. But what do you advise your clients about their attire?

Well, I think you need to look like an expert in your field. So a lot of times people think, oh, I need to dress to match who I’m talking to in order for people to feel comfortable. But I learned that from the guy who was a sports agent who said, well, my clients are coming in in shorts, but they won’t trust somebody with all their millions of dollars who’s also wearing shorts and looks like them. The whole reason they’re going to a financial expert or an agent is because they know they don’t have that expertise.

So I like to dress somewhat like an expert in the field. And in Zoom or any virtual meeting, Microsoft Teams, whatever you’re using, you know, sometimes people aren’t wearing blazers like I would if I was in person. But I am going to wear a nice shirt, not something that’s a T-shirt with a rock band graphic on it or anything like that. I am generally going to have a little jewelry on there. I am going to make sure my hair looks decent or as decent as I can get my hair to look in the humidity.

But I’ve seen people get so casual that they come on. I was talking to somebody who was a division head and they had a ball cap on. You know, that takes away from your professional image. So I do think we have to have some degree of thinking about what image am I presenting even before I say anything. Because the impression is formed in less than a few seconds. And then everything you say is looked through that lens and interpreted. So it’s important,more important than you might imagine, to look what the role is that you are wanting to get them to hire you for or to engage you for. Years ago, I remember so well, back before I became an entrepreneur, I went on several job interviews as a candidate. I remember calling a colleague who was at an institution where I thought I would like to interview and I wanted his advice. So I drove there dressed about like I am today, I suppose we were meeting for lunch. He shows up in shorts, sandals, and a T-shirt. And I am not a snob by any means, but I’m thinking to myself automatically, he just doesn’t think this is a very important occasion. He has signaled to me that he can be just as casual as he wants and that, and some people might say I was being a little too stern on that, but that was my reaction and that would be my reaction again if I were meeting somebody for a business meeting.

So I’m thinking what you and I are definitely agreeing on that we need to consider Zoom as a business meeting. And it’s not only a business meeting, but for many instances, it is a first business meeting, correct? Absolutely. And I have clients that I’ve coached and they’ve won positions, won just won a position in a global company. It’s a leadership position. They never had an in-person interview. It’s all been virtual because the company is a virtually based company, but a lot of their offices are actually in Europe. So they’re not going to fly somebody over for the interview generally speaking.

So those things are true. You bring up another point, which is let’s say you’re a little overdressed, okay? Let’s just say that that guy’s in shorts and you’re feeling kind of odd. You can always take the blazer off and then you’re kind of almost there, maybe a half step above. But when you’re underdressed, the other person may feel, as I think you did, disrespected. And you can’t make that up. So once that happened, you’ve already lost something in terms of consideration. And that is a bad position to be coming from in business. You want to always come in with them feeling predisposed to liking, respecting, and wanting to do business with you.

So, I mean, that’s just one aspect of nonverbals. There’s a whole lot more we can talk about on facial expressions, body language, even body position that make a difference on how people relate to you and whether or not they trust you and want to actually do business with you. So, you know, these are all things people forget about because they’re just focused on their words and they’re not focused on their body language or the other person’s response to them, which is generally shown in their body language.

Thank you for that. In a minute, we’re going to come back after a brief pause. And when we do, I want to get your feedback on something I read on your LinkedIn profile this morning where you talked about, I guess we could phrase it, the eyes have it because you were contrasting the power of a smile and the message it gives with this messages subliminally almost that the eyes give. We’ll be back with that in just a few seconds.

Do you wish you felt confident about giving speeches? Do you want to deal with difficult people constructively? And what about becoming more persuasive in sales? Then keep listening now to Dr. Bill Lampton. He spent 20 years in management, so he knows the communication skills you need for success. I urge you to call the Biz Communication Guy today for a no-cost but very valuable 30-minute discussion about your communication challenges. Call now, 678-316-4300. Again, that’s 678-316-4300.

We’re here with Melinda Marcus on the Biz Communication Show. And justBefore that brief break, I mentioned that just this morning I was looking again at her LinkedIn profile, and there was some exchange of comments between her and what was posted. And one of her comments on that posting was that, yes, sometimes a smile, we can interpret that. But beyond that, Melinda stated that there’s really more opportunity to get accurate messaging from the eyes. Tell us about that, please.

Yeah. So all of us sometimes have what we call in the nonverbal area, we call it a polite smile. So when you’re passing somebody in the hallway that you don’t know, you might just do this kind of smile. So you’ll notice it’s just the mouth that’s involved there. And really all it’s saying is, I mean no harm, right? And as soon as you finish passing that person, that smile comes off your face. So that’s how we know it’s not real joy. It’s just giving a signal that, hey, hi, I’m friendly, right? But it’s not real joy.

So when we want to see real joy, we want to see the eyes engaged and particularly the muscles around the eyes. And that’s when generally a real smile is there. And a real smile doesn’t go and then all of a sudden leave because joy doesn’t just suddenly be there and leave, right? It’s on for longer. So those are all some signals that help tell you when it’s a real happy, positive smile or when it’s just a polite smile that doesn’t really mean too much, particularly in business.

So at the end of a presentation, if you get just a polite smile, it doesn’t mean they liked it or are going to go through with whatever you were offering. It just means they’re being polite. But if you see it’s a real smile, then you’ve probably got some buy-in. And that’s an important thing to know so that you can start working towards the close.

What occurred to me this morning was that in so many gangster movies, you see the gangster wearing sunglasses. And I never thought about it before. Sometimes you think they’re doing it just to look a little sinister. But I’m wondering, are they trying to keep people from seeing what they’re really thinking, which the eyes would reveal? Has that ever occurred to you or not?

Well, it definitely has occurred. What do you think poker players, professional poker players do? Yes. They’re trying to cover as much as they can of any of this real estate because they’re aware that it can give away what they’re thinking or feeling without their knowledge. It leaks out from the unconscious.

And I want to make that distinction. The unconscious happens without your having any knowledge of it. Subconscious are things that you may have that you can retrieve, right? And make it conscious of, you know, why do I feel uncomfortable? Oh, because that guy just did this. You know, that’s a subconscious. Unconscious, you have no idea what’s happening. And the unconscious leaks through our nonverbals what we’re really thinking and feeling.

And poker players whose money and all of their career depends on it, they are trying to limit that exposure because they know no matter how hard they train and want to have a poker face, there are things that will leak out. In fact, it’s not just your face that leaks things. It’s your hands, how you actually put your bet down. They’ve done analysis and research on that. It can be very revealing on whether you’re bluffing or not. So those are all things that some people can control, but most people cannot control. And that’s why they try and obscure anything that will help you get the read.

If any of our viewers and listeners remember the performing group, the Eagles, they will remember you can’t hide those lion eyes. So fascinating.

We have time for one more question for you to share your professional insights on. It’s something that you and I just happen to both believe in very affirmatively. And that’sthe power of self-talk. I noticed that in some of the research I did. And talk to us about our self-talk, how that influences both our attitude and our behavior. Well, in order to help my clients that I work with in a one-on-one consultive coaching basis, I always spend at least in a week 20, 25% of my time auditing research that could be helpful.

One of those is what Bill was just talking about, is on positive self-talk. And what I found is in the training of Navy SEALs and also elite athletes that are going to be Olympic contenders, they found that if each of those individuals, when really facing a challenge and are feeling maybe a little bit insecure, will just tell themselves, “you’ve got this,” but not only saying it, but saying it in third person. So in other words, for me, I would say, “Melinda, you’ve got this.” And I might even pat myself on the arm. And the brain receives that as if somebody else is encouraging us. So that can really be helpful. And they found that it has positively impacted the results and helped people over their anxieties to be able to achieve things at the very highest level. So I encourage you to try it. I am with you 100% on that.

I go back a long way to when I first read Shad Helmstetter’s book, What to Say When You Talk to Yourself. And I read not too long ago, I’ve been a lifelong golfer. And I remember reading where Jack Nicklaus said, “I never made a putt that I thought I was going to miss.” So what we tell ourselves, and as you say, really convince ourselves of, determines the outcome. Henry Ford, “if you think you can or you can’t, you’re right.” And that’s very valuable.

Melinda, this has just been fascinating. And I know there are those who will want to get in touch with you. So please share with us your contact information.

Great. So the best ways to contact me is if you’re on LinkedIn, look up Melinda Marcus and connect with me and let me know that you heard this podcast. Otherwise, you can go to my site, and that’s Influence Advisors. That’s with an S at the end of that, influenceadvisors.com. And there’s a form there. You can always contact me there. And I look at those and respond to every one of them. So those are two great ways to contact me. Thank you.

Thank you. And I know also, and we haven’t mentioned this, this wasn’t in the introduction, but you are a very popular keynote speaker. You speak at conferences and conventions and associations. So I know our viewers and listeners will want to keep that in mind.

And now that you’ve given your contact information, I am happy to give mine. My YouTube channel, my moniker is The Biz Communication Guy. My YouTube channel is Bill Lampton, PhD. I’ve been recording instructional videos since the year 2007. Now, I don’t want you to go back and look at any of those first ones, because as we said earlier, the camera doesn’t lie. But in recent years, much of the instruction that I’ve given on there has been through The Biz Communication Show with wonderful, well-informed guests, Melinda being one of them, fortunately, today.

And while you’re there, of course, I invite you to subscribe to my YouTube channel. And then bizcommunicationguy.com, quite logically, is my website. And when you’re there, you can subscribe to the podcast. As you know, this is both a video interview and a podcast as well. I would be very happy to talk with business leaders and future business leaders about your communication challenges and problems. And so you can give me a no-obligation phone call at 678-316-4300. Again, no obligation on an initial call.

II want to give credit to the co-producer of my program, Mike Stewart. Mike Stewart, you’ll see his website. localinternetpresence.com. Any of us who have been entrepreneurs for quite a while have a few people that we have relied on repeatedly and endlessly. And Mike Stewart, based in Nashville, has been one of my most important mentors and strategists in marketing and technology since 1997. That wasn’t yesterday. So I encourage you to get in touch with Mike.

And I’d like to say, Melinda, with everything that we’ve said, some wonderful gems there for our audience. In half a minute or a minute, how would you pull together what you want to leave with us? Well, I think it gets summarized by this: If you really want to be successful, you really need to look beyond the words because people don’t always tell you what they’re really thinking or feeling. So it’s critical, I think, to tap into understanding body language, both yours and how to read theirs, and also brain science. What are some of the things going on in that subconscious and unconscious that could help you or hurt you?

So things that you can learn that tend to fast track trust and fast track people feeling good about you so that you can gain consideration. Don’t just think it’s about the words. That’s the number one mistake I see anyone in business make is they think the decisions are going to be on words and facts. And actually, we know through research it’s made on emotions and perception. And so it’s very, very important to look beyond the words.

Yes, Melinda, not only from research, but certainly from personal experience. There’s so many instances each one of us has every week where somebody tells us something, but we get other messages instead, which can be conflicting.

Melinda Marcus, thank you so much again for being with us. You are an incredible resource in the area of nonverbal communication. And I encourage people to get your book. I encourage people to get in touch with you and certainly to benefit from your services.

Thanks so much, Bill. Thank you. And thanks to those of you who joined us on video and also on the podcast. We invite you to be with us again next week for another highly informative and engaging guest on the Biz Communication Show. I’m Bill Lampton, your guest, the Biz Communication Guy. Thank you.