MicroFamous

Let's start with a little thought experiment: What is draining your time and energy right now?

Not all tasks are equally draining. That leads us into our first big idea.

1) Go after the things that drain the most energy first, not necessarily the most time.

Chances are, your business only needs a few key skills from you. And of all the other things in your business that you do, some of those things aren't a big deal, and some drain your energy.

If you're like me and it hurts your soul to check your email, create a simple system and hire someone to handle your email immediately. A few years ago I realized that my podcast agency only needed 3 things from me, and they were the things I was highly skilled at and enjoyed doing.

Everything else I ruthlessly started to get off my plate.

So how do you get everything else off your plate?

2) Systems first, People second.

We're living in a massive labor shortage. A-players are hard to come by. A-Salespeople and high-level integrators always have been hard to come by and always will be.

If you focus on rockstar systems, you don't need A players all the time to have a great business. The better your systems, the better your baseline level of performance in your business.

Rockstar systems means you can hire good, smart, capable people, and still get rockstar results. So what happens when you have an A player? Squeeze them for everything their worth by having them upgrade your systems while they're with you. Plan on them to outgrow the role and probably leave.

I hired an A-player in the middle of last year, and together we built a great system inside my agency. He even documented the whole system step-by-step and helped hire and train the 2 people it took to replace him. So when he got an opportunity with an awesome startup, he was able to turn over the keys of the system to the people he'd trained and I wasn't left scrambling. I was actually better off for him being with me for a year.

So I don't plan on retaining rockstar people for my business to work. If you're building a lifestyle team, at some point you're going to hit a business sweet spot, where you're not looking to just grow for its own sake. And at that point you have to be honest with yourself and the people on your team. You may not be able to retain all your A people by giving them a vision within your team. Their vision may take them out of your team, so you may as well plan for it.

McKinsey Consulting is the best example. They've known for decades that they'll retain 1 out of every 5 people they hire, because they only keep the best of the best.

That creates the famous "Up-or-Out'' structure McKinsey is known for, and creates an international fraternity of former McKinsey types who weren't retained but ended up at other companies. They then turn around and recommend their companies hire McKinsey, so often the candidates that didn't make the cut end up being McKinsey's best clients.

And McKinsey gets the best out of all their people while they're there.

We can all do the same thing by having an informal "Up-or-Out" policy. You only retain the best, those who can make you a lot of money or save you a lot of money. Everyone else will "outgrow" their role and move out of your team at some point, and you support them in that journey.

That brings us to one of the biggest challenges in building a team: Losing too many good people, especially A players. Rainmakers and founders tend to burn through good people, and some do it over and over again for years.

I have a client who made 1.3 million last year in billings all by himself.

That means he is worth $650 an hour, every single working hour a week for 50 weeks a year. If he paid a VA $650 a week, all they'd have to save him is one hour of work to be worth it.

Yet he's the classic rainmaker. He's burned through so many people...

I spotted a question from an expert in a mastermind group and wanted to address it because it's a common one. Mostly I get this question from folks who've been on a few podcasts, know they enjoy being a guest, and can see the potential for their own show.

Ultimately, I want coaches and consultants doing both. Guesting and hosting podcasts work together for best results. Guesting on other podcasts is the #1 way to get more podcast listeners. And hosting your own podcast is your best lead conversion tool, and it's the place where you have 100% control of the message.

So in no particular order, here are 3 key questions that will help you make this critical decision.

#Question 1: How many podcasts have you been on?

If the answer is fewer than 5, I'd recommend spending more time being a guest. By all means, start working on your podcast idea behind the scenes.

Yet I recommend spending more time interacting with the audience, attracting people to you, and testing your Point of View and Bold Opinions.

Even though our agency produces podcasts, I advise folks to guest on podcasts first. Do as many shows as possible and get a feel for what you like and don't like.

That lays the foundation and starts putting your Point of View into the world, attracting people to you and building an audience who can help you refine your podcast idea before it even launches.

That's the real secret to launching a great podcast - finding a fast growth niche where people are seeking content, conversation, connection and community. 

A group of people who feel neglected, passed over or overlooked by the content that's already out there. 

#Question 2: Have you identified a fast-growing niche where you can become the first or only expert? Emphasis on 'first or only.'

When I say a fast-growing niche, you might not know. But if I asked you, Where is all the *buzz* and energy in your space right now, that might spur some thoughts. The best way to grow anything, from a podcast to your entire business, is to position yourself where the buzz and energy and growth already are, and then become the "first or only" in that space. 

Many coaches and consultants I see are not operating in fast-growing niches, and yet they're beating themselves up for slow growth. I also see this a lot in coaches and consultants who've become well known in one niche and then want to keep growing, but they've essentially outgrown their original niche and haven't chosen a good strategy for their next niche.

I've been heavily influenced by the work of Richard Koch, who wrote the 80/20 Principle. What you might not know is that he also wrote a book called the Star Principle, in which he shared the secret of a "star" business, which goes back to Bruce Henderson's work at Boston Consulting.

A "star" business is the #1 brand in a niche that's growing 10% a year or more.

If the niche you're in isn't growing at 10% a year or more, then even dominating in that niche won't lead to big growth. As coaches and consultants we tend to compare ourselves to other experts and influencers without taking the niche into consideration.

When I work with clients especially on their podcast launches, that's one of the key things I'm looking to identify. What's the niche, and is that (or could it become) a fast-growing niche?

That was the big secret of the Team Building Podcast that I launched with Jeff Cohn. Within the residential real estate space, team building was the new hot trend. We positioned the podcast as the "first and only" podcast in that space, and he's maintained that position for the last 5 years, getting 10k downloads a month in a space where there's maybe 15k...

A client asked me the other day about hiring a social media agency. 

An agency promising to get far more engagement on her content.

The idea is for them to push out content across multiple pages and platforms. Lots of pushing. It’s a very appealing idea, too. Your content…everywhere. 

Who doesn’t want to be everywhere?

Yet I think the days of pushing content on people are over, at least for the time being.

And agencies are still selling the dream, mostly based on success stories from 3+ years ago.

Why does this matter? Because it affects everything about how you approach growing your podcast or marketing your business.

Here’s the big idea for today: There was a sweet spot in social media where you could “push” your content out to people. That sweet spot is over.

For organic content, that sweet spot lasted around 10 years. 

The front end of that period was roughly marked by the launch of Gary Vee’s book “Crush It” in 2009 and Grant Cardone’s book “10X” in 2011. Those books are now 10+ years old.

Since then, social media companies have continued to tweak their algorithm. 

Their mission is to keep eyes on the platform which they can monetize with ads.

So we saw things start to change with organic social content. 

Anything that sent people off-platform or got “low engagement” was downplayed or even punished.

• YouTube videos stopped playing natively inside Facebook. 
• When you tried to post a YouTube video or podcast episode to Facebook, you got these boring looking posts that got low engagement. The post basically guaranteed you had no shot at going viral.
• Facebook devalued their Business pages with algorithm changes. Guaranteeing that most people don’t see business page content. It just wasn’t as engaging as Facebook wanted.
• Inside of Facebook Groups, we saw opinion posts do far better, while teaching posts get buried by the algorithm.

So now, organic content has to get instant engagement…or your post dies. 

I saw one coach online talking about how they loved their podcast agency because they put up these “beautiful clips of their podcast” on places like Instagram.

When I went to her Instagram profile, I found that those “beautiful posts” averaged under 100 views and had minimal engagement compared to posts that were more authentic and off-the-cuff.

(Of course, there’s a role for an agency to post for you, but that role has changed over the years. More on that below.)

Social media companies like Facebook have set the standard for the type of content they want. 

Content that is… 

• created by you in real-time
• on their platform
• using in-app tools
• exclusively and custom tailored to their platform
• that generates instant engagement (which skews toward negative emotions)

So the landscape has shifted away from the “10X” approach. Creating one piece of content and pushing it out to every platform doesn’t work the way it used to.

Those posts didn’t get the right kind of engagement, so those posts now are mostly seen by you - the account owner - along with the 150 people you engage with the most. Those are probably people you already know.

So to you, you might see all this content going out everywhere. 

But most of your followers never see that content, because the social media companies bury it with the algorithm. 

Now what does all this have to do with push and pull?

The challenge in growing a podcast or even your company has...

Inside our podcast production agency, one of my big pushes over the last couple years was to convert to Scrum-style project management so that we could be working on 2-3 service improvement projects at any given time.

So I wanted to give you a glimpse into that system and the projects we’ve run this year to improve our podcast service. If you’re a current client you’ll recognize some or all of these projects (not all applies to every client) and if you’re looking to launch a podcast this gives you insight into what it takes to keep up in the world of podcasting.

Here are the bigger service improvement projects we’ve run just in 2021.

Headline and subject line optimization

We started using a headline optimizer first (we use this one) and then added the email subject line optimizer later.

The goal was to raise the quality of our average episode title, and this site helped us gamify the process by scoring each title.

Not only did we find ourselves writing better episode titles, but we also shared and celebrated when we wrote high-scoring titles.

Milestone Episode Notifications 

Milestone episodes are your 50th, 100th episode, or hitting a milestone in download numbers like 100,000. 

Watching for milestone episodes has helped us to get clients thinking early about special episodes, new ideas or ways to get more promotional juice out of that milestone.

That led to special strategy calls, creative episode ideas, and even me guest hosting on Lars Hedenborg’s 450th episode. 

Client Update Email improvements 

We wanted to make the email more useful for gauging audience growth and decision making on topics.

So we added a new Weekly Stats Graph that’s more readable and actionable than other graphs (in my opinion) and gives a better sense of where audience growth is going.

We also changed up one of the stats included in our email to include top episodes of the last 90 days, rather than all-time. That gives you a better sense of what the best topics are and removes the all-time episodes which change less frequently.

Leveraging opportunities to put clients on podcasts we produce

For clients in real estate that meant looking for ways to put them on Real Estate Uncensored. So it’s now part of our weekly meeting to ask the question, “What client should be putting on other shows we produce?”

We also added certain clients into our BusDev system to specifically look for ways to introduce them to podcasters we connect with.

Since we don’t offer podcast booking as part of our service (with good reason), this gives us a way to systematically get our clients more exposure. I always want to look beyond having good intentions, and build things into our systems to solve problems once and for all. Weekly questions are a good way to ensure that things stay on your radar.

Highlight Clips going out the same day as an episode release 

We used to have Highlight Clips go out the following week to point back to the episode and drive new traffic to it. Nothing wrong with that, but as our production process got even better and we got raw episodes from clients further in advance, we were able to move this up. 

This one is a little subjective, as I can see a case for Highlight Clips going out at various times, but all the feedback we got from clients on this change was...

Years ago I caught an Uber and it was a nice newer black Infiniti sedan. 

Along the way, the driver explains that his day job is a financial advisor and he drives for Uber on the side for extra cash because he’s newer in the business.

Now ask yourself, In that moment, was he an influential financial advisor to me?

No, because I had already put him in the category of Uber driver. He couldn’t market and sell himself to me as both an Uber driver AND a financial advisor. In my mind, there’s only room for him in one category.

But we’re making this same mistake every day, and that’s the topic of this episode.

One of the missions of the podcast is to break down things that are confusing and frustrating so we can be less critical of ourselves and move forward with more calm, confidence and clarity.

So I want to dive into a common frustration we have with branding and marketing, which is how do we market ourselves when we sell more than one thing?

In my opinion anyone can become MicroFamous, yet we have to be strategic, focused and consistent to get there. To reach the level of being famously influential.

It’s hard to be strategic, focused and consistent when our energy is pulled in a bunch of different directions. 

Not to mention the fact that people automatically put us into one category. “Jeff is a business coach, Linda is a consultant, Jay is an author, etc.”

Because people have a really hard time putting us into more than one category, it’s hard to become famously influential for more than one thing to the same people.

And when we’re talking about different offers and services to the same people, that’s basically what we’re doing. We end up confusing people.

And if you think everyone but you has their s#%t together, think again. 

Even big companies who know better do this kind of thing all the time.

The best example I’ve seen lately are the hilariously terrible Bud Light Seltzer ads. Have you seen these?

So here’s the backstory.

Bud Light’s parent company tries to get into the hard seltzer space with a new brand and it flops.

So they come back with a brilliant idea to market hard seltzer under the Bud Light brand.

You can see how screwed up this idea is in their own commercials.

One of their TV ads starts this way: “The Bud Light logo makes people think our seltzer is a beer, so we hired recruited retired NFL players Nick Mangold to Block It Out!

Now it’s a mildly amusing commercial, but it’s less funny when we realize we’re doing the same thing when we’re selling a bunch of different things. 

We basically have to go around saying, “Hey I know you think I sell ABC, but I actually do XYZ! Surprise!”

Of course, we know we’re confusing people, we just don’t know what to do about it.

So we start asking ourselves questions like:

How can I be more clear with my brand and my message?

Could I put everything under the same brand? 

Can I find one brand that allows me to do all the things I want to do under the same brand?

I call that the Search for the Magic Umbrella.

A Magic Umbrella is a brand or an idea that acts as an umbrella we can put over just about anything we want to do or create or sell.

And I see people twisting themselves into pretzels trying to find it. 

It’s a very noisy, cluttered world out there. Especially online.

One of the core principles of the MicroFamous system is that in order to cut through the noise, we have to deliver a Clear & Compelling...

We are only in control of our actions. So setting goals around things like podcast downloads are pointless because we don't have direct control over them. Let's set the scene with a couple stories to illustrate the core challenge when setting goals.

A couple years ago a client of mine hired an outside marketing agency to run their whole marketing program. They came up with a social media strategy based on benchmarking and best practices, which is a corporate way of saying they'll copy what other companies in the space are doing.

That led to this agency creating all these lovely Powerpoint slides with projections of how the client's podcast would grow now that this agency would be doing all this marketing "stuff" alongside the podcast. It all looked great on Powerpoint and my clients got really excited cause they love numbers and metrics. And who doesn't love a chart that just goes up and to the right?

Unfortunately, the agency had no direct control over any of those metrics and their brilliant strategy of copying what everyone else was doing in the space did nothing for the client. After over a year of spinning wheels and lots of presentations, the client ended up firing the agency.

I've seen that scenario play out enough over the years to see it coming, and it stems from the same root cause.

Now let's look at a story that shows the other side of goal-setting.

I have a good friend and mentor in the executive recruiting space, which is like hand-to-hand combat sales. Lots of phone calls, lots of hand-holding, lots of babysitting deals and last-second negotiation to get these deals to close. It's a very fascinating industry.

So my mentor, who is obsessed with metrics and goal-setting, was sharing with me his approach to coaching someone on goal-setting. In his view, there were 10 different elements of goal-setting and each required care and dedication to master.

I looked at that list and agreed that all those things were 100% correct, with one caveat. You had to be in an environment where the relationship between performance and result was a direct, straight line and all the numbers were already known. In other words, X number of phone calls produces X appointments which leads to X deals.

If you're in an environment where those numbers are unknown or changing, you can't set goals in the same way. That led to a discussion to produce the key insight I want to share here on the show. There is a difference between Outcome Goals and Performance Goals.

Outcome Goals are things we want to see happen, like more podcast downloads or more sales calls. But we can't control those things directly.

No matter how much we focus our intention or energy, we can't simply produce more podcast downloads or sales calls. And no amount of putting them down as goals on paper or creating slick-looking Powerpoint slides will change that fact.

That's where Performance Goals come in.

Performance Goals are what we DO to produce the Outcome Goals we hope for.

Performance Goals are the actions we take.

Performance Goals are where we can focus our effort and energy to get better results.

And in uncertain environments, where things are unknown or ever-changing, that's all we can focus on.

So rather than setting Outcome Goals for things like downloads, subscribers or email opt-ins, focus on setting Performance Goals.

What are the actions you believe will have a positive effect and lead to the outcomes you want?

How do those actions translate into new commitments?

And what kind of metric can you assign to those commitments?

That's where you can focus on holding yourself accountable to the things you control rather than things you can't control. For example, let's say you want more podcast downloads this year.

There are a few...

As lead gen costs continue to go up, and social media algorithms are optimized for rapid rising, negative emotional responses, it gets more and more difficult to put any kind of a direct response call-to-action in front of people on social media.

That goes for whether you pay to play or not.

I'll give you an example. Let's rewind to February 2020, the MicroFamous book just launched, got great feedback and reviews. So my idea was to run the free+shipping offer to build the email list, and I built a whole 90-day email nurture system to follow up and convert those book buyers into true believers in the MicroFamous message.

But the ads just were ridiculously expensive, despite us doing all the latest, greatest, micro-testing techniques.

Then I found out why.

The guy helping me with ads checked with his network around May of 2020 and heard that it was starting to cost $40-50 in ads to get one conversion on a $7 free+shipping book offer. What that told me is that the people doing it are spending a warchest to build their email list. They probably have a complex set of backend follow up and a mix of offers to try to recapture all that ad spend and hopefully make a profit. And who knows if it's working or how long they're waiting to actually profit. Just because people are doing things doesn't mean it's working or that it's sustainable.

So I pulled back that offer.

My observation is that over the long run, lead gen costs will continue going up, regardless of short-term issues like iOS14 or variations in the market or by niche.

The more the big companies start shifting ad budgets away from TV and radio into social media, it just drives up everyone's cost. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

I've talked to some Facebook ad agency folks over the last year, and they're proud of getting their clients leads at $5-10. When they first start running ads, opt-ins can be $15, $20 or more. Now, you might say, what about the folks who are running ads and selling programs and courses in the millions? The Russell Brunsons, Russ Rufinos, Amy Porterfields, etc.

I have no doubt that the top 1-5% of info-marketers are still making money.

Whether that's with free+shipping funnels. Or running ads to webinars with a whole series of upsells and cross-sells and complicated, trigger-driven email campaigns.

Or maybe they're running ads to call-funnels and hard-selling with a phone team. I'm sure it all still works to a degree. But to make the math work now, in an environment of $5-10 lead costs, the game has changed. Your backend has to be fine tuned.

It reminds me of a story one of my mentors, Frank Klesitz, told on this podcast in the episode on puffery and copywriting. The story goes that he was at a Dan Kennedy event years ago, and one of the guest speakers was a top info-marketer.

And to show his autoresponder campaign in all of its glory, he took a 6-foot tall roll of paper with his entire campaign sketched out. When the paper was rolled out, it ran across the width of the entire stage and needed several people just to hold it up.

On seeing that, Frank decided that was not where he wanted to compete.

So is the biggest challenge facing us just an issue of optimizing ads? In other words, if we just became better info-marketers, does that solve the problem?

I don't think so.

Let's say the top 5% of info-marketers can still scale up using social media ads and a complex backend of funnels and triggers and upsells and cross-sells. Do you WANT to put in the work to reach the top 5% of info-marketers? Do you have the rare set of skills and mentality and engineering ability to get there?

Do you have the internal values that drive you to extract maximum value from someone regardless of whether it's in their best interest? I don't know

Guests not sharing their episodes is one of the biggest frustrations of running a podcast.

But is it the guest's fault?

Not always.

In this episode of MicroFamous we dive into 3 key mistakes podcasters are making right now that keep guests from even wanting to share their episode. And of course, we talk about how to avoid those mistakes and create an episode that guests are excited to share.

Let's jump in!

Mistake #1: We presented the guest in a way that adds nothing to their reputation or their level of influence.

This could be in how we introduce them, how we phrase their accomplishments, how we describe or promote their offer, or even the picture we use in the graphics we create. There are SO many opportunities to screw this up.

When my staff selects the headshot to use in our graphics, we're always looking for what the GUEST has already chosen as their primary headshot, from places like their website or LinkedIn profile. If we can't find something that is obviously their favorite, or all their stuff is low quality, we reach out to ask for a high-quality headshot. 

Even something as simple as the wrong headshot can cause some folks to not share your episode.

It could even rise to the level of a flat-out screw up, as I mentioned in the case of the podcaster who featured me on an episode which was released last week. They got the name of my company wrong, even right in the graphic they wanted me to share.

I wanted to share their episode, I tried to share it, but I wasn't comfortable sending people to their Show Notes page because of how badly they screwed it up. And I couldn't even send folks to the episode using their graphic because even that was screwed up.

Stick around to the end for my best quick tip on how to present someone in a powerful way.

Mistake #2: We interview rather than having a conversation.

When you've been a guest on a bunch of podcasts, you want a conversation, not an interrogation. That's why I refer to my guest episodes as conversation episodes, not interviews.

I try to drill it into all my client's heads, These are not interviews. You are not an interviewer. You are an expert and influencer in your own right. No matter how big the guest is, this is a dialogue between two experts who each have their own perspective and value to bring to the episode.

Remember to be thoughtful and respectful of your guest. I'm not talking going overboard and playing devil's advocate, trying to create Gotcha moments or running roughshod over them with your own opinions. We're talking about a real conversation between two experts who each have well thought out opinions on an interesting topic that is super important to a group of people. That's why people show up for business podcasts.

Plus you get a nice bonus, since treating a guest episode as a conversation between two experts also puts you on a more even playing field and boosts your level of influence with your own audience. There's something about your audience hearing you have a smart, thoughtful conversation with someone they respect. It raises their level of respect for you. I've experienced that with my journey, and it's an incredible thing to feel.

Mistake #3: We covered the same topics they share on every other podcast, we failed to draw anything unique and compelling out of them. Some podcasters ask roughly the same questions every time, and in the right setting that can work.

But many big name guests have been on a bunch of podcasts and have shared on their signature topic many, many times. It's critical to draw something out of them that they haven't shared before.

You can do this with well-researched questions, like Tim Ferris.

You can do this by

A lot of the frustration I see in the expert/thought leader space has one root cause.

So I want to give you some common examples of failure, and I'll build up the big reveal - the root cause and some potential cures for this horrible ailment.

And if you think you're wrong in launching something that eventually failed, think again.

Notice how many iterations of programs like Seth Godin's AltMBA, or Sam Ovens Consulting Accelerator, or Amy Porterfield's Courses That Convert.

I've read various accounts that each of them are on their 4th, 5th, 6th or more MAJOR iteration of their program. And it's not just about continuous improvement. It's that they didn't get it right the first time. Either it didn't work the way they wanted it to, it didn't sell the way they wanted it to, or it didn't scale the way they wanted it to.

So if those major players in those spaces didn't get it right the first time with their flagship programs, it shouldn't surprise us if we don't get something right the first time.

Especially in the world of group coaching programs or online courses.

Yet we have this weird expectation that we should get it right straight out of the gate, and this leads to the root cause I'll get into later.

But first, let's get into the examples.

Example 1: Going from individual client work directly to online products.

Turns out it's fairly easy to create something that works when you're involved and hand-holding. But does the DIY version get people the results they want? It's also easy to create something you feel like people need, yet it's not the kind of thing they want to BUY.

Or it just doesn't scale because it costs so much to bring in the right buyers to your world that at best you break even on the whole thing. All these failures become more likely when you go straight from individual client work to creating programs.

Example 2: Offering a "harvest product" without building the foundation of demand to harvest.

I went deeper on this in the episode on paid content and Substack, so I'll just give a quick overview of the idea. There’s a big difference between a program that helps you build demand for you, versus a program that harvests demand that already exists.

Paid subscriptions, paid premium content, and even monthly memberships are all good examples of products and programs that "harvest" demand that already exists rather than helping you create new demand.

In other words, they work great for people who already have an audience demanding more from them. Not so great for folks who are still in the audience and demand-building phase. The planting seeds phase. If you remember when Radiohead offered their album direct to fans at a pay-what-you-think-is-fair model.

It was supposed to break the industry, but of course it hasn't.

Because it only works for those with established audiences who are demanding more from the band than they already get. It took piles of record label money and years of touring and radio play to build that level of demand.

Example 3: Building something that's scalable to deliver, but not scalable to market and sell.

With the rise of ad costs and the fact that reaching people on social media organically is more time consuming than ever, it's not enough to build something that is scalable to deliver. Scalable marketing also has to be baked in for it to be truly scalable.

Let's say you run a monthly membership for $19. But it costs you $50-100 or more to get a new member. That membership has to be amazing enough for them to stick around for 3-6 months. Not to make a profit off them...just to break even.

That's why most of the folks offering membership programs, you find out their real offer is almost always some high-ticket...

Coaches, consultants and thought leaders can get a lot out of building relationships with fellow experts whether you’re joining a formal mastermind, or starting your own informal peer advisory group. 

The question is - how do we approach masterminds so that we get the most value out of them, and how do we contribute to these relationships so that we’re also making the engagement worthwhile for other members? 

In today’s episode, I’m joined by the CEO of Profitable Relationships, Dov Gordon. Dov is also the founder of JVMM, a curated, high-caliber community of 100+ leaders in the world of small business, entrepreneurship, consulting, and coaching, and today he shares the thought process behind his mastermind. 

Three things we learned from Dov Gordon;

• Why being an introvert has heavily informed his approach to building an expertise-based business. 
• The one rule that should govern how we approach our mastermind groups.
• How to prioritize mastermind groups without expecting an immediate payoff from them. 

Guest Bio- 

Dov Gordon is the CEO of Profitable Relationships. He helps consultants use “backwards” networking to reach their ideal clients, consistently. Experienced consultants know that the best clients come from referrals and relationships. But referrals are unpredictable.  And relationships take lots of time. Instead, Dov helps you become an “under-the-radar leader” in your industry. It gets better, because Dov shows you how to leverage the relationship marketing you’ve been doing for free - into a six figure revenue stream. 

For more information visit https://www.profitablerelationships.com/ and email [email protected]. To find out more about Dov’s JVMM mastermind, head over to https://www.profitablerelationships.com/jvmm.