Moon Or Bust

Subscribe to our Benzinga Crypto Youtube Channel Episode Summary:

• Chintai x Chimera Wealth Interview
• Moon or Bust - To Play Moon or Bust go to https://www.benzinga.com/markets/cryptocurrency

Guests:

-Chintai is a Singapore-based company with offices in Germany that uses blockchain technology to modernize capital markets for asset managers, banks, and enterprises.

-Chimera Wealth is a registered investment advisory (RIA) firm focused on empowering clients to enjoy their lives today while designing their tomorrow.

Meet The Hosts:

Logan Ross

Blockchain Analyst @ Benzinga | President @ Wolverine Blockchain | Crypto investor and educator since 2016

https://twitter.com/logannross

Ryan McNamara

Bought sub $90 ETH during the bear market | Liquidated on ByBit | Was into DeFi before it was cool | Ran ASIC mining operation in 2016 (sorry planet Earth) | $UNI Bag Holder

https://twitter.com/ryan15mcnamara

Disclaimer: All of the information, material, and/or content contained in this program is for informational purposes only. Investing in stocks, options, and futures is risky and not suitable for all investors. Please consult your own independent financial adviser before making any investment decisions.

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Unedited Transcript:

GM zinger nation. My name is Logan Ross, and I'd like to welcome you back to moon or bust your home for all things, altcoins and DFI. We've got a great show prepared for you today. Uh, but how you doing Ryan? What what's going on? Well, GM Logan happy Thursday and happy Monday to our view. Yes indeed. So before we can get started, I want to let you guys know about a couple of things we have down in the description below.

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Uh, so without further ado, I would like to welcome AIJ and David to Mooner bust. How are you both doing today? Thanks for having me. Yup. Good to meet you. Yeah, pleasure is all ours. So let's just dive right into it. Um, David, you are the, the founder of the crypto project, chin tie, uh, and Asia you're coming from the investment side from Kymera wealth, uh, could starting with David, could you walk us through, you know, your background in crypto, how you found yourself, where you are.

Yeah. I mean, my background, uh, maybe isn't that uncommon, but it's certainly different from probably a lot of people who are in the crypto space right now. Um, particularly this current generation just coming in. I, uh, found my way in via a 20 year career in financial services, working for banks and asset managers.

And so I got to live through the 2008, nine financial crisis. Uh, from St seeing it from the very inside and, uh, and really got a sense of just how flawed the existing system was, um, that it really wasn't working for us generally. Um, and that, that led me to start looking in 20 15, 16 onwards to wards, uh, disruptive technologies that I could use allies to help, uh, improve prove the financial system in petite.

Um, so that, that led me down that first, uh, crypto rabbit hole. You know, I started looking at Ethereum, uh, beyond Bitcoin and getting a sense of what was possible with small contracts and, and beyond. Um, but, but really then, uh, that's what led us to, uh, creating Gentiles, which is a digital asset platform for dynamic forms of issuance and market creation.

And, and, uh, yeah, I mean, th the whole growth of the DFI sector over the last three years is a phenomenal, uh, illustration. I think of that potential. Awesome. An agent. Yeah. So I am a managing partner and chief investment officer of a registered investment advisory firm here in the United States. We're talking about my crypto expertise.

Well, I dabbled, you know, right when it became a bit popular in 2017, uh, not gotten to extensively until actually I was introduced to David and what their project is over I and tie. Uh, that's where not only for my own. Personal portfolio, but also as a firm, we've started to do well a bit more into the space, especially with clients nowadays on both sides of the spectrum, whether you have the younger generation or those who are nearing retirement, really just looking to diversify their assets and portfolios through different areas.

So, um, yeah, that's pretty much where my exposure came into this. Awesome mate, Jay, we're really happy to have both of you on here today. It's great to see both sides, uh, you know, both the builders and the investors. Uh, so we're going to get right into it. So, David, could you tell us what chin tie is from a very high.

Yeah. From, from a very high level. Um, we actually started out, I guess, in the defy space before he got called defy, um, back in, in 2017, we decided we were going to build out a full on chain, uh, order management system and an exchange, and actually try a new concept, which was trading of the utility of. Um, in this case, we started off with network capacity and, and it was a great initial use case, although it didn't last that long.

Um, but really once we actually spent all that time building that out, we started to realize the sheer amount of time and effort we'd spent issuing our own network, token, the checks. Um, uh, we, we did that post, the kind of ICO, boom, if you all recall back in 2017, and it was just around the time that the governments were starting to crack down on some of the scans that had had erupted throughout that period.

And we're starting to make noises like this is actually a security and things, and that really scared off a business and the promise of mass adoption for a couple of years, um, during that period. But nonetheless, we. Did a full issuance of the checks token, uh, during that period. And we built an exchange and we realized the entire process of doing that was incredibly complex, um, and very, very challenging for anybody else who really wanted to follow in our footsteps.

So it really, the moment you looked at every other project, though, they had a need by and large to issue some sort of. To deploy on a, on a secondary market and, uh, and have liquidity with it. And so that was the fundamental foundation, uh, underlying Gentile as a platform, which was to say we were going to provide a solution that would enable dynamic forms of issue and spit utility tokens, and NFTs write down.

Um, securities real estate. Um, so, so we've pursued licensing out of Singapore to ensure that we'll be able to, uh, do that type of thing with a fully compliant, uh, framework as well. And, uh, and that that's a fundamental differentiator too, between what we're doing at anything else in, in that everything is operating, um, on a compliance control framework so that, uh, whenever you've got an asset that's, that's red needs to be red compliant and, and handle that way.

It can have rules in place. Uh, while still interfacing, uh, long-term potentially with the defy system too. So we kind of, uh, tend to tend to describe it to two outsiders as we're building the regulatory bridge between traditional finance and defy, and we're going to enable that mass adoption curve. And so it's a, it's an exciting time because the networks, uh, about to launch next next month.

And, uh, yeah, so we're delighted to have, uh, Comera wealth on board with us. Awesome. So AIG, I know Kymera wealth has a background in real estate. Could you tell me specifically what interested you in the chin type? Yeah. So before I forget, um, and we're, we're going to get into this later on. Uh, I do need to disclose that, uh, Kymera wealth, as well as myself and the partners do have an investment in shin, Thai, uh, as backers.

So, uh, yeah, just have to disclose that out there. But yeah, what really interested us is, as I mentioned, we're coming from the traditional financial space, right? There's kind of two aspects. One of those is acting as a fiduciary for our clients, really trying to develop a portfolio that's in their best interests.

And as we're getting into this even more complex economic environment, we're having to diversify our investments, not just from the traditional stocks, bonds mutual funds, right. But also in different. Classes. And that's where the digital asset space is growing, not just in popularity, but acting as a very beneficial, uh, diversification tool, regardless of if you believe.

Bitcoin or what have you and the fundamentals of it. It is acting as a diversifier for client portfolios, and I'm not talking about going 100%. Right. Uh, you can do something as small as one or five. And then so yeah, I come here a wealth, not all the way we're doing that aspect. And that's really what attracted us to, uh, what the team that shouldn't ties really do.

Providing that platform, but also the compliance and regulatory aspect. Uh, as I just mentioned earlier, right? I have to disclose that well, we're investors in shin Tai. And so our area is very heavily, regular. Especially following the global financial prices and it's for good things, it's for the protection of the investors.

And so that's really what attracted us is. We're seeing a lot of these projects out there and the digital asset and the crypto space, you know, initial issuance and such, but nothing really. That's kind of providing that regulatory or compliance framework and all that. David of course, top more in depth. I don't want to steal any thunder from him, but.

Uh, that's one component. And then the other side is yes. What we're working on on a private funding side. I can't give too much information, uh, but we do have some expertise in the real estate as well. Some of the venture capital area. So really partnering machine tie on providing that, uh, through this new asset class digital assets versus doing the traditional route of either bringing up a venture capital firm and only being able to.

Give that exposure to accredited investors and more towards the retail investor, right. The general population. And again, everything we want to do is in a compliant regulatory mindset. So having project like shin type to partner with is just perfect for us. Aja. I'm curious to know, did you receive any pushback from your big investors, uh, for moving into the crypto space where any of them kind of spooked by it?

Uh, and if so, how did you handle that? How did you explain it and did they come up. Yeah. So right now we haven't really gotten much pushback. Uh, I will say there are some clients that we have that, uh, it is a new space to them and really what we try to do. And this is an all aspects of how we deal with clients is really focused on the educational aspect.

Right. What I've found is most. Portion is just the financial literacy, whether you're talking about crypto or anything, stocks, bonds, and it's really our job to educate our clients that, Hey, this is a digital assets, uh, that we're really looking into, whether it's Bitcoin, Ethereum, a platform like shin tie or something that we're trying to privately issue.

Once you educate the client from my experience, it's a lot easier to get them to jump on board versus just saying, Hey, there's this hot trending? Token that's out there. I want to invest 10%. Right. Um, so that's really where we focus and we don't really typically get much pushback once we educate those clients on just informing them.

It's great to hear. So, David, my next question is for you, which blockchain does chin use and what does your multi chain architecture look like? Ooh, what a technical question. I mean, before that, I have to say again, I'm somewhat sheltered and being, pushing your clients into.

No, I wouldn't do that. No, no. I would say that might be wise from a long-term hold perspective, but who knows? So yeah, the underlying protocol. Um, so, um, one of the other lead investors in the round for us was Dijuan. The role team known for launching the ESI protocol. Um, however, um, we, we select start because it's highly scalable and configurable.

Um, and although it's had a bit of an interesting, uh, I think period over the last two and a half years, uh, since the original, uh, wider public blockchain was launched, uh, it's actually been very well maintained during that period. And it's is, I think there's some encouraging signs in that wider ecosystem, but.

What I generally look at now is what is the underlying linkage potential to multiple other protocols? And that's just a general demand. That's coming from all clients that we were talking to you. Now, they want to be able to have that flexibility to lest on the very best protocols and in the, in the best potential markets, or they want to be highly selective, maybe about what they do as well.

So, as an example, if you were to spend all the time going through an issuing a security token and putting controls around the marketplace, Who's a participant and maybe you're putting in place mandatory KYC, AML anti-money laundering checks in there as well. And so on and so forth. Uh, you defeat the whole purpose.

If you just decide you're going to go and list it on unit swap, for example, because at that moment you get the, the, the, one of the great aspects of defy, which is that it's decentralized in censorship resistant. But the problem with that too, is that at that point, frankly, you know, your securities could be going off and being used for money laundering or being sold.

You know, a country where somebody maybe is blacklisted elsewhere out of the business environment, because. The links to terrorism or something. So from an issuer point of view, this is where the they're more interested in other compliance solutions too, and saying it will be great to have options to connect in.

And so the good news there for us is that we've got a really strong partner. Um, the announcement will be going out soon. Which provides us conductivity full conductivity to about 30 different other blockchain protocols. And I think that's broadly the future that we're going to see, which reminds everybody.

I think, of the whole, uh, you know, underlying protocols of the internet itself, which is no one really. What's some of the technical connectivity issues are, you know, w w we're talking right now across this, and I know it's very easy to get really passionate about some of the blockchain protocols, the layer one stuff, but actually they can intercommunicate increasingly well, and, and I think from an end user perspective, you can imagine log-ins, you're on the line of account.

You see, you're asking. The fact that you might then go and choose to trade a sale on one exchange or another. And under the surface, it's actually transferring between those chains as part of that process really shouldn't matter to you. And that's broadly where we're moving towards, which is encouraging, I think.

And it's a, it's, it's an exciting, uh, component we need to needed to collect a, we get over the line for achieving mass adoption. Yeah, I think that's a good take. Do you have any plans on integrating with Ethereum in the future? Uh, yes, we're, we're already able to connect to it. Um, so for example, uh, the checks token, uh, network token, uh, we had to be.

Limited by the initial listings. Uh, we are about to push a hat with listings or a number of, uh, Ethereum based, uh, exchanges. And, uh, and it's such a rich ecosystem that even though it has obviously some evident flaws, people talk about like the gas fee issue and so on. It's it's got an incredible number of talented developers in that pushing out some really innovative models, uh, related to everything from, you know, insurance to lending.

And I think it's that type of innovation, which is fantastic for the wider financial system, because it really, it gives ideas to the, the wider financial system on what's possible. Uh, even if you know, it is subsequent stage, we find that some regulatory controls maybe start to creep in from governments or, or maybe not.

Um, but, uh, yeah, I, I personally love what they've been doing over the last two years on the device space on, on the Ethereum. Totally me too, for sure. Uh, can you give us an overview of the process it takes to tokenize a real-world asset on the blockchain? Yeah, it's actually really easy. So, so from, from the perspective of actually tokenizing anything, it's a much over-hyped, uh, process in that it really is, is relatively straightforward.

So within our platform, for example, now we were on a life, uh, call, call with a client the other day where they, they set up the. Got registered and have configured in and tokenized and issued an asset within about five minutes. And it was live on the chain to their exact parameters and they were able to then deploy a secondary market and commence, active trading with other people.

Now that, that is all well and good, but the problem is if you're doing that with anything, that's actually like a, like a security, for example, with, with controls that need to be placed around that. This is where regulatory compliance and this other more complex side kicks in. And that's really where, um, I would say.

90% of the value app really kicks in because tokenization is, is inherently going to be something that we all have, uh, disposed increasingly. I mean, if you think about it with NFTs, what that's shown us is with things like open seas, anybody can issue a token, right? I mean, you guys could have, have a Benzinga token, right, right now in a variety of different forms and you could issue it out pretty fast.

Um, so the same really does apply here, but where it comes, uh, becomes really relevant. Ensuring that all the underlying controls and rules are put in place so that you can not only then say you've issued a security token, but that it actually combined and be handled in exactly the same way as the security.

And that's how we eventually moved to all of the financial system going digital, going to tokens and, uh, and all the associated benefits we'll get from that. And how does holding custody of these real world assets work? Uh, yeah, it's it. Can sorry, go on. Finish your question in the custody of the real world assets that are tokenized on the platform?

Uh, well, in, in the case of the regulatory ones, we've actually signed partnerships with several. Local and international, um, digital asset custodial solution providers. Um, again, there, there are announcements that are going to be going out very soon, um, on that side of things. However, when you get to things like utility tokens, um, we absolutely could be custodians as well.

I think it then becomes something of a network security issue generally. Um, so why should use as necessarily have to trust and throw, throw the dice with every single thing athletes are up to or particular. Uh, asset, it kind of generally makes sense that particularly when the, um, doing anything that involves cross chain, that there, that utilizing a provider who maybe has got aspects like insurance, um, and is a established player who's in type business is looking after your people, digital assets securely.

Now that doesn't mean that they couldn't still take control. You know, put them in their own wallet and maintain the key, but there are points in time where you are going to want to hand that off to somebody in a secure way and know that yes, it's moving around the underlying defy system here, but, but we're generally comfortable with it.

So where we were definitely very focused on partnering with firms of that kind of quality to ensure that our users have the maximum. Yeah, that's great to hear. It seems like custody is becoming more and more popular, which maybe the earliest adopters of crypto didn't always like, or, you know, see the need for.

But I think, you know, to get some sort of mass adoption events, Retail won't even realize they're interacting with blockchain and we'll all be taken care of for them. Uh, w which is, you know, it's good for some people in certain applications, especially when there's there's high value assets at stake. Uh, so speaking of those high value assets, can you tell us, uh, what, what is the main type of asset that, that Shantae is focused on tokenizing?

Um, and how is it bringing this type of asset to a new audience or a new market? Yeah, well, actually it's, it's entirely being client driven. So as an example, comment or wealth, um, I think, uh, agent, maybe you could speak to this, but I know, you know, for example, Definite interest in, in the fractionalization and tokenization of real estate, because it fundamentally disrupts an asset class like that and adds liquidity to, to an illiquid asset class for the first time, which is not to be underestimated, what a big deal that could be, but there's a variety of other things possible.

Um, and if you think about a firm like Kymera wealth, that's. Got back potential. It really, to some extent it's almost imagination is to, to is one of the core limits as well as what their client base might be. But I'm just broadly curious what you would say to that one in terms of what you think that the primary asset classes will be served for you over the next three years beyond real estate.

Yeah. So I mean, one of the things we've been exploring is of course, real estate, so tokenizing that aspect, and it's not just the physical real estate work, just mentioning it it's conversation, but also the forms of. Right. So if you actually look at financial markets, the bond market is a massive market.

Of course you can probably second me on this. It's it's bigger than what we have is this. So that's an area where also looking at Kymera as well. Um, whether it's into the mortgage real estate space or just in and of itself, just from my experience in my network, talking to other individuals as well, some of these businesses, uh, I think debt will probably be one option.

Ty's biggest players. Um, I know one who's doing. And I think David, I introduced them to you. I can't recall, but they're really looking at doing like a Def con reconsolidation right. And seeing if they can have somehow tokenize that there's other areas too. I think it's very interesting how innovative some of these entrepreneurs are being in regards to another one I had project I had run into is looking at doing the like solar energy credits and how that could somehow be tokenized to help incentivize individuals.

I Kymera wealth. I would say our biggest area is, as I mentioned, the real estate space, uh, that just seems to be where a lot of our clientele is kind of driving us and part of our network and in house as well as, as I mentioned, the loan space for the private debt dealing area. Yeah. And actually an interesting, uh, illustration of, of how difficult this is, is, is to predict is that I would have never predicted for example, that AF first go live market next month would be a carbon.

So, you know, I thought all expands would be real estate or it's bound to be securities or, or just the standard utility token. But no, it's actually the global carbon market is forecast, for example, to be, um, up to $50 trillion by 2050. Um, because obviously the, the, the issue related to. Um, climate change and so on.

And just the general challenges of the amount of carbon being dumped into the atmosphere is whether or not people fully agree with all of, all of that. And it's a relevant, because there's wider global consensus on the need to remove it, the statistical test written. So actually there's a huge potential that.

The global carbon market is a great example of why blockchain technology will gradually pervade and, uh, move into lots of other sectors beyond what we've seen so far, because it's a corrupt sector and the carbon credit market can be faked. And you can end up with stale credits being Retraded elsewhere, which is a great way of kind of saying, no one really can control this properly.

And it becomes somewhat meaningless. Uh, You know, your audience are gonna get it better than anybody, uh, that blockchain and be able to link some carbon directly removed and then burn those tokens. When they've actually been consumed, say by government to offset that that's a perfect use case for blockchain.

And so. If we've got that as our launch market, who knows actually what some of the other, you know, really big use cases out there will actually be. Um, I think it's, that's the exciting thing about digital assets is that it extends to really, almost anything in any way that we, we exchange value. Um, and that's, that's where it's going to be a fascinating one for us to watch how this evolves over the next one.

I want to touch on the tokenization of real estate a little bit more. How does tokenizing real estate benefit retail investors? So say one is providing greater access. Uh, so I had mentioned earlier, right? In regards to tokenizing, not just real estate, but other areas where it's only privy to, for, to give you an example, there's a.

Particular investments, basically a non-traded REIT, a real estate investment trust. Typically you have to have certain requirements that the investor meets, whether they're an accredited investor, meaning they have like a $1 million net worth or earn 200,000 a year. For the past two years, there are certain income requirements that.

So tokenizing some of these real estate's whole physical assets can provide greater access to retail investors versus, you know, other areas of the market where they weren't privy to. And that's, again, that's one of the reasons why, as I kind of hear our wealth is really interested in this area of.

Providing greater access on all these different areas, not just real estate, but those private companies who maybe want to tokenize their equity in some sort of form or fashion to give it to the people. And you're seeing that trend grow right. We have crowdfunding and stuff like that. They're even online platforms that have been doing these kinds of deals, just in a different method.

And so it's greater access for me that I would say is the biggest factor, David. I'm not sure what you would like to have. Uh, yeah, no, I think I broadly agree with everything you've said. I mean, really fundamentally to, um, tokenization of real estate. Uh, it doesn't have the potential to, to, uh, unlock access to an asset class that a huge proportion of the population right now, the, the, the younger adult population or affects will be priced out of.

We can argue whether or not it's actually a good time to do that, given that we're at cyclical, highs on everything. But, uh, outside of that, it's fundamentally. One of the few asset classes that has literally solid backing in terms of asset backing behind it. So it's fundamentally undervalued right now because of the liquidity issues and the, and the lack of access, uh, for, for many, to be able to trade in and out of it.

So for me, I just look at it as a way that, uh, people will be able to fundamentally change how they interact with real estate. They'll, there'll be. Utilize it and dip in and out of it in the same way we do it securities, um, over time. But also over time, I think it's going to disrupt how we have all the financing aspects of, of, uh, of, of real estate as well.

You know, that they'll, they'll come a time when the concept of a mortgage may end up becoming obsolete as we know it now, because there's the tokenized. I mean, if you can imagine owning a house, and this is looking ahead in the future of the potential of it, if you can tokenize it in, in sort of say a mil, a fraction of, uh, And each token, therefore is linked to one Millington of the property.

Well, the underlying market, um, would be able to effectively you, you could borrow those tokens off the market, in the form of leasing and pay the holders. The equivalent of view you, the way you pay the bank right now. And, uh, and over time you acquire through some special permissions, more and more of those tokens off the market to do eventually on the house.

If you want in such scenario. Now that's the type of mechanism that could come into play eventually as an alternative way of actually funding out something as simple as, uh, over some of these fundamental as a house. So. Um, yeah, I think it's not to be underestimated the potential of all of this. And again, it's really going to come down to a combination of the, the innovators coming out with these types of concepts and trying to deploy them.

And obviously the regulators and governments globally getting comfortable with such, such a design as well. AJ you mentioned, uh, that you suspect real estate bonds, and that may be one of Shanghai's biggest, you know, uh, platforms or applications in the future. Um, could one of you speak to, uh, you know, a little bit, little bit more detail on how this might work?

Well, I can talk about the mechanics of it. That's for sure. I mean, I definitely agree with AJS point that bonds is probably the. Biggest potential market of all digital assets. I mean, like it or not, there is a hell of a lot of debts watching around the world. And, uh, it's also fairly fundamental for the way that we, uh, we actually conduct different forms of, of, uh, commerce generally.

As well. Um, and it's actually very important. It's not always about a thing. So as an example, um, there are ways that if you, if you're a company, for example, you don't want to necessarily sell equity in your company, just because you need to access to investment capital, the idea that you could far more cheaply access and issue your own kind of corporate bond to, uh, to token holders, uh, backed by, you know, various fundamentals that you've provided related to cash flow and so on, and then pay them off over two or three.

And access that farm in a way that currently most small companies are priced out of as is the type of thing that's possible. I mean, even some, just a single use case like that is a huge deal. And, uh, so I do think that broadly it's going to be a big one, but as to how it mechanically works well, it's programmatically, not that dissimilar to the underlying permissions you have with things like a security, it's just the.

Whereas with a security, you might have things like voting rights and dividends and that type of permissioning built in and actions. Uh, with bonds, you just have bond blind ones instead. So you have coupon payments and you have the underlying dates related to them and you'll have certain default criteria.

And what typically can happen, um, in, in a variety of other scenarios. They just get programmed in and then they get handled. Um, and of course, if it's a digital bond, well then you're logically also going to have to apply a different set of compliant compliance rules as well. So they'll have to be in coded and built around that to ensure that the, the market operates in it in a legitimate manner too.

But, um, yeah, other than that, it really is just one of another multitude of new digital asset classes. I think we're going to see in the, in the coming two or three. Yeah. The point you make about kind of requiring reporting of, of, uh, financial data and, you know, kind of putting on chain, the risk that's associated with certain bonds, I think is really interesting.

Um, I I'm by no means an expert in the real estate sector. But like, I know that that's one of the big things that led to the financial crisis of 2007, 2008, was that the, the, the debt ratings or like the risk ratings on these bonds, uh, were completely fraudulent. And, you know, synthetic bonds were created with, with just like never-ending leverage and, and an entire market was made out of basically thin air.

Right. Um, so. I see the huge need for this, uh, product and the service that you guys are providing with, with the regulation as well. Um, so maybe we could touch a little bit on the regulatory, uh, you know, position we find ourselves in, uh, across the world than in the us specifically. Um, what type of measures are you guys, you know, proactively taking to avoid security issues in the future?

Well, certainly speaking from perspective because compliance is one of the biggest areas we're focused on. Uh, it's kind of not a problem. Uh, how, however insane and restrictive a set of regulations may be passed by any given, uh, government gloves, but really there's still a set of rules that we can encode and feed into the rules engine, the compliance engine and enforce.

For example, at the most extreme level, we can enforce China's current rules on crypto, which is a complete ban and just simply block them from any utilization because you put mandatory KYC around the regulated markets. Right? And so there's a degree of that. That's not to say obviously, breaches couldn't take place, but you can do that now.

Um, it, it, it depends really in terms of how complex and difficult the system maintain on how frequently they change the underlying rules. Um, Typically regulators publish them out in a consultation period and make updates. And they don't tend to rock the boat and change rules too dramatically, too fast because they need time to see how they're going to play out.

And in terms of whether the intent behind the rule is actually what ends up playing out or not. Um, and just generally the way most regulators operate globally is, is through a kind of consultation. Um, a process with the underlying industry that they're operating and regulating. So, um, the, the, the, um, uh, a jurisdiction like Singapore is, is very, very high quality.

I would argue it's, it's comparable with London and New York as a financial center. And it's really, I think, set itself now as the premier, uh, APAC, uh, financial hub for me, which is why we selected it as our HQ. They've also got an, a regulator that's treading an interesting line between trying to ensure that everything's done the right way, but still trying not to stifle innovation and therefore pass rules that enable that too.

So from that perspective, um, you know, I find regulators like that very easy to work with. We can encode their rules and give them guidance. And feedback and help shape that process. I think when you get to the U S it's a slightly different case because the U S is it's got a lot of conflicting different perspectives, and obviously it's kind of federal too.

So it's got different states with different perspectives as well. Um, That makes it more challenging from, from an operational perspective, I think. And, uh, you know, I, I would hope that the U S will gradually get to a point where it has a cohesive set of rules that, that everybody can understand that if you're like a level playing field, even if it's not the absolute best.

Um, because right now, I think it's generally very challenging for a lot of the digital asset firms in the U S to, uh, to be able to not just meet every role, but, but also be able to be as competitive as some who are based on. Totally. And we saw that the sec went after, you know, swap for supporting tokenized stocks earlier this year.

Do you guys have any plans on tokenizing stocks as well? Or are you going to stay away from that? I mean, it's not on our roadmap right now. Um, but there is absolutely nothing to stop. Um, you know, an existing exchange for example, but may, maybe does do all that as part of its business, um, leveraging our platform to deploy out a digital version of.

Now, in fact, we, we certainly could in theory, do that, I suppose. Uh, I don't get that excited by the idea of tokenizing stock generally, because it's already fairly liquid, it's accessible and relatively cheap. I mean, you just need to look at the size of the equities market. And the average retail investor is in an able to trade in it almost as they ought to be more easily than they are with, with crypto right now.

So from that perspective, I think you have to ask the question, well, why generally have certain. Stop tokens appeared as a, as a concept or one is to kind of prove that you don't just have to tie something like a stable coin to the U S dollar. For example, you actually can tie it to something as dynamic as a security.

Um, but broadly is one. I do think that there is ideologically a very big group in the, in the crypto area who are generally, um, determined to try and completely upend and replace the financial system from the inside out. And. They are awesome in, in many ways, in terms of what they're looking to do, that the challenge with something like that is that if you just go out and flagrantly, ignore the regulators and just say, we're going to do that.

And we're going to have no controls in place. No KYC, no transaction monitoring, no anti money laundering controls. Eventually they, you know, you can imagine a scenario where they turn around and say, well, we've analyzed all this chain activity and we can see direct flows of capital going back to . Um, and that's where, you know, the, the DFI system won't do itself any favors.

So it, you know, I think there's ideologically some issues here between, uh, the, the pragmatic side, like ourselves who want to actually, you know, enable controls and mass adoption through that, and then gradually helping influence and change the system and allowing that disruptive technology to kind of do that as well.

And then there's another group that just generally want to stick two fingers up the entire system and just deploy everything out regardless. But, yeah, I mean, you only have to look at the likes of finance for the, they actually issued stock tokens as well, and had to pull them quite rapidly to see that, you know, even an exchange like that with, with a level of parent influence, it has, was unable to withstand pressure from growth global regulators.

So I think. What we're seeing with that level of innovation and experimentation is more likely to end up being adopted and pushed out by the rest of the financial system with some appropriate controls around that. Yeah. I was certainly two camps as far as like strict centralization and strict de-centralization for a long time.

Uh, and this market cycle, we've seen a whole bunch of products pop up. They kind of embrace both sides and find some middle ground, uh, you know, with an acceptable level of decentralization for the application. So they've uh, could you talk about how decentralized exactly shouldn't have. Yeah. And, and I think we're a very good example of exactly that kind of a thing that's coming out.

So, um, on network launch, we've made a conscious decision to operate on a permission chain, which is effectively a private chain, uh, at this stage. And the reason we've done that is because there are a lot of benefits to launching a network and a project of this nature. With, with centralization. Um, so having gone from the inside, out of a network, a blockchain network launched the, went for the full decentralized option.

The problem is that decision-making is extremely challenging in those environments. And, and I would argue. Uh, decentralized governance is probably one of the big unsolved challenges for crypto over the next five years. It's something that still hasn't been necessarily mastered. We're still trying different types of governance models.

Um, but the intent certainly for, since I longer-term, that is to actually decentralize our bus network and chain and govern. Working with the underlying users and clients to find a model that works for everybody. So one example of that could be that all the largest, uh, clients become no validators on that.

And gradually, and obviously, um, take part in that or that you can end up with a proposal system related to how upgrades to the network and enhancements are made. That that becomes a vote based system. I mean, these, these are things that we see you're already operating on on other kinds of downtime structures.

But that's that's, you know, certainly the longer-term vision, there will be a de-centralization of the network, um, fundamentally over time, but it needs to be done in a way that also the regulators generally are happy with it as well. Um, so for them, they may want to say, well, if you're going to wish you and, and do all of these regulated products, we still need to have some central point where we can effectively say you're accountable.

And therefore, you know, we know who we're talking to because one of the big problems with dowels in general, Yeah. People then resigned from the whistle positions and no one's clear who, who actually runs it. And people have a habit thinking that means they're no longer, there's no liability risk. But of course, what actually happens is that the regulators can just go after anybody.

Who's a public figure for that network could be the, the validators. It could be the, the governance people, or it could be the developers. And as soon as they apply pressure at that level, you, you realize that actually decentralization as a concept. Quite malleable. And once, uh, once all authorities put a degree of pressure on you, you can see these things actually.

I'm not, not proving to be quite as resistant as perhaps when we first thought, do you think that this level of regulation is bad for innovation or causes capital flight? Uh, yeah. I mean, I definitely think that, uh, the smartest thing that broadly governments could do with the defensive. Um, it's only cracked down on, on areas where they can see absolute flagrant examples, um, that are, that are having a negative impact.

So an example of that, they cracked down on the ICO. Boom. Now it was innovative, but with zero controls in place, we saw massive. People being ripped off access scams. We saw wine, we needed some, some rules in place to, to keep it open and honest. So that's an example that where I think fine, but, uh, when you're getting experimental token models, uh, trying out a variety of different things and the, the pace of innovation, if anything is accelerating to me, it's, it's not healthy to try and impose rules on something.

Moving that fast. It's actually more interesting and probably wiser generally to step back and let it evolve. For say another couple of years. And then one, as it looks to be starting to mature and maybe problems that are more clearly identified, then you can start to actually put in place controls. Um, I do think that generally, if you over-regulate, you end up stifling innovation and so.

I, I very much hope that the more light touch approach generally with regards to digital asset rent regulation is something that regulators globally continue to push for. And I think in many cases they are, but, uh, you do get some who, for example, can't even do something as basic as differentiate between a utility token and a security token.

And when we're not doing that fast, a good adoptive stifling innovation couldn't agree more. Ryan. I think you have the next question here. Oh yeah. So how does single-sided liquidity provision work? Because it's, double-sided on stuff like unit swap, right? You're providing two assets with single sided.

You're just providing one, correct? That's absolutely correct. Yeah. Um, so it's been, uh, something of a holy grail for a long time and different types of groups that have come from. Approaches to try and remove this concept of impermanent loss. So for those not familiar, when you act as a liquidity provider on something like Eunice, SWAT, you inject liquidity on both sides of the pool.

So it could be, you know, let's say Bitcoin on one side and the, the uni token that it's paired to on the other side. Now the problem with that is as inherently, whichever way the market moves. Whether it goes one way or the other, you, you then suffer something called in permanent loss and it's, um, it's something that only then gets realized when you take you up a seat back end of the market, but you can end up in that loser to quite substantial amounts, um, in terms of what you end up getting.

Without going into specifics as to why. And therefore, the only way that, that, that, that is generally handled is by paying very high amounts of the liquidity providers, which actually makes liquidity provision more expensive than it needs to be. Um, if you look at ways around this one example is insurance whereby um, collective groups will provide a degree of, uh, that they will take the impermanent loss when realized, but they will, um, broadly give you coverage for a certain.

So that you, you've got a degree of certainty, you'll get back what you are that you're, you're going to accept that there's an inherent cost to that as well. Um, that is okay. But actual one side of the Quincy is possible. If you actually create an underlying, uh, automated market-making algorithm that can happen.

Um, I won't go to the specifics of it, but we patented a, um, a mathematical algorithm we developed in house on that front. Um, and it checks out and broadly what that means is it introduces two concepts or, um, impermanent loss still exists as a possibility for LPs, but so there's a concept called impermanent game.

And you can therefore, as a liquidity provider, Choose whether or not you could lock in an impermanent game and actually realize a gain or simply a loss, uh, and they will, they will do so in response to market conditions and, uh, things like the underlying rates being provided well, PS, um, it's going to add some interesting dynamics to that, but what that fundamentally means from a, you know, the perspective of define, for example, is that provided we get full interfacing.

With our regulatory markets to define the future as well, which is that the long-term goal you'd be able to onboard your, your. Collateral from somewhere else in the defy system, the same way we move it around right now, you build to then inject liquidity into just one side of the protocol and you build to get that amount back out again as well, but you'd be able to effectively, you know, um, access additional yields, but what they should do, uh, is also broadly, uh, reduce the fees that actually, uh, LPs need to be paid because they're not taking as much risk anymore.

Interesting. So this, uh, impermanent gain, it does not come from the. No, it comes from the movements of the, of the, of the market in the same way as impermanent loss does. So, um, you've got a given exchange rate, let's say between, uh, Bitcoin and the checks like an athlete, and then checks appreciates by a certain amount versus Bitcoin.

And at that point, when you, you, as the LP, Um, so, so you've gone on the, uh, on the check side, you suffer or you, you get you, uh, having permanent game. If you've gone on the Bitcoin side, you'd, you'd have some internet loss in that example without the balance. Um, but likewise, it, it provides you with a way of actually making a decision as to whether or not you think that that movement in the market is law short term.

And you can effectively as a, an LP participate in the market by making those decisions yourself and saying, I'm going to. Uh, our exposure, um, as a liquidity provider here, because I think actually this is just a short-term spike. So we're locking the impermanent, uh, gain hit, and then we'll, we'll actually inject more liquidity back then when we feel it's reached a more balanced level again.

So these are interesting dynamics or what it will require instead is for higher rates to be paid, to maintain the depth of the pool. Now, uh, we're going to be quite interested to see how some of these dynamics play out, but, um, broadly it's, it's definitely uncharted territory in terms of. Uh, this is going to walk right across the market.

Yeah, most definitely. And I don't want to dwell on this for too long, but I know this is a complicated topic. So I'd like to show a quick example on unit swap. So this is an LP position that I have, it's represented by an NFT, and you can see as providing liquidity between the east and Manoj pair, uh, of which my Manor was drained as it took off against Eve.

Uh, and so I may have made $300 from fees, but I definitely lost money and missing out on all of the gains that men have made in the media. Um, yeah. So that is the kind of impermanent loss that we're referring to here. Yeah. That's a good example of, uh, well that one's also partly opportunity costs. So. It could be just even if you ignored, um, something like staking rewards and the fee side of things.

If, if you get a movement in that market and then took it back out, you might end up with less money than you put in, in that scenario, for example. And that's another side to impermanent loss. Um, that is yeah. Generally going to be, you know, an interesting one. I think it's quite a complex area that the average defy user generally struggles to fully understand.

And, uh, that in itself is kind of unhelpful because what people really want is a degree of certainty. They want to know that I'm putting in I'm contributing, say liquidity services, and therefore I'm going to get reasonably well paid for it. And I have some high degree of certainty as to what I'm going to get paid for it.

They don't really want to sit there and go might work out really well. It could be a complete disaster for me. That's never really a, you know, a helpful model. And that's, I think, again, it shows points to the innovation of defy, but also the continued innovation as we're stopping. Try out different, uh, configurations that could enhance that further.

Most definitely. So, uh, one of the big arguments I see long-term for the success of crypto and tokenization is purely for the sake of capital efficiencies alone. So could you talk about how you're able to reduce overhead by over 50% through digital asset issuance? Yeah, I mean, this, this is, um, I think reasonably well understood by a lot of the, uh, the defy community, but maybe not.

Um, as somebody who's a more casual crypto user, who's, who's just dabbling. The different token markets, they probably don't fully appreciate the efficiency gains that come from blockchain generally. Um, because they, they won't necessarily understand the existing structure of the, the, uh, the current financial system.

So if you think about every different, um, asset manager and bank global, To varying degrees, they are going to be operating their own internal systems. They're going to have their own, uh, teams that, that carry out different forms of, uh, checks. And they're going to have to reconcile that with anybody that they, who was a counterparty that they tried with on the markets, or if they're going through a broker, they're still going to have to go through that same underlying process.

So if you, if you think about what that sucks up in terms of time, energy jobs, resources, It's actually astronomical. I mean, we're talking hundreds of thousands, probably millions of white collar jobs, which are means people earning well over a hundred thousand dollars a year. And their job is to check data and to make up for the inefficiencies of the fact that we're all sitting around with lots of different computer systems, arguing over what the positions are on databases that can be corrupted and not reflect properly.

Now, you know, a distributed database, I a block. That sits in the central event, on my process, dramatically lows, all of those costs and adds massive efficiency. So really, um, the best estimates are from the likes of Accenture, um, are that between 50 and 70% of the back office, which is the side that handle all of these reconciliation of positions and settlement can be completely removed out of the global financial system by, uh, embracing blockchain.

So that is probably why we're also seeing some. Substantial, um, adoption, uh, and the interest in adoption amongst financial institutions, even though they're not participating with us yet in the don't defy side, they can see the underlying potential for them just to shoo this into their existing, um, structures in a, in a more efficient way.

Yeah. And I can second that just coming from a financial services firm, right. We have to do audits third party audits. And the maternal or the partners, and I do the accounting. So having this kind of platform where it'll speed up the process, not only saved time and hours with what we prepare ourselves or an associate, but also just having a trusted, full blockchain in this scenario.

Sorry, one thing I was thinking that there is an interesting, other perspective on this, which from a regulator perspective too, they don't really know what the hell is going on in the financial system. So they're relying on people sending them reports and, and, you know, data dumps of their positions. And then they sort of retroactively may analyze it, or may not.

If you think about a blockchain though, where they have site permissioned access and can see. And it's the central golden source of truth throughout the trade life cycle for a given market. It gives them a very powerful position because they can get instant preemptive reporting. They can keep a very close eye on things and they don't need to go back.

And I'll say AGA and Carnera wealth to send things through. They can just generate it themselves and look at it themselves too. And that I think is a fundamental change in how regulators are gonna be able to, um, interact in, in the system. So on a kind of related tangent, we see these automations in blockchain, these automations in AI machine learning self-driving cars self-driving or not self-driving, but you know, you see these checkout kiosks at McDonald's there's no longer like the people needed a and the greater trend towards automation.

Uh, a lot of people think that this presents, uh, an issue. Um, but there's also the counter. That there may be metaverse jobs opening up to replace these. And I've heard people like Gary V say the potentially long-term, uh, there could be more jobs in the metaverse than in the real world. Do you guys see this as a possible outcome?

What do you think? I mean, if time has shown us anything, I think when we have innovative technology, Right. It's really just coming down to adoption. Right? As we have things that are automating, that take a factories right now, we're training those who had those industrial jobs into other aspects of our society.

Whether it's going to be metaverse is going to take place more than the physical that I don't know, maybe David, you can provide some clarity there, but I think in the long run it all, just come to where we adopt as a system. Yeah. I mean, my perspective on it broadly is that nothing that Facebook now called Matta, that what they presented was original, um, or hasn't already been largely put together in different forms by the VR community already, um, on a, on a variety of levels.

So even the concept of LFTs, although are tokenization digital assets of existing. In gaming environments, um, with some quite high value secondary markets for a long time, as well, as well as skins and other things like that. Now, um, the, the, the question is how can it actually fundamentally disrupt how we, we engage with each other, particularly in a remote world, you know?

Um, and, and I'm definitely bought into that idea. We could, you know, my team is, is located primarily in Germany and Singapore, and I'm on the east coast of the U S the idea that I can actually sit in a virtual office space with them for meetings, where we actually feel like we're, we're in the presence of one another and just engage in a much more, uh, dynamic way than we are right now with four squares on, on a, on a little screen staring at it.

Um, that definitely appeals to me. And I think it will appeal to a lot of other. And probably the way therefore the will be able to interact, not just in business, but other forms of, uh, um, sports and other things too. It could feed into those two for sure. And certainly gaming is a given. Um, so I think that personally, therefore it will overtake the real world from a commerce perspective, undoubtedly, um, because you'll be able to do things more efficient.

In that environment too, you won't be constrained by physics and other aspects of it. Um, and, and therefore, I think we will see a point where people prefer doing business in, in that metaverse concept. Um, but the real world is not going to lose its place. Right. I mean, we're, we're still gonna want to get out and walk on the beach and get fresh air and need to look out for our health and sunshine.

And frankly, No, no, no. My back a few beers, virtual beer doesn't sound as good to me as real. So, you know, I think that you, people have to be realistic about this. There has to be, uh, you know, just like we say, there has to be work life balance that will have to be met a real real-world balance. I think, uh, in that, in that future too.

And people will realize that it's not healthy to just sit there and one is in front of a screen all day. Um, but yeah, I, I think broadly it has the potential to fundamentally disrupt, um, You know, crypto itself will form the under arching backbone that enables the, of that to function. Certainly a crazy world and metaverse that we live in right now.

Um, I know that we are getting close to running out of time. Uh, so I wanna thank you, both David and AIG for stopping by today. Um, but before we wrap it up, I'd just like to give you both the chance. If there's anything else you want to mention, let the people know where to connect with you, where to follow along with, with your respective, uh, projects.

The floor is yours. Yeah, I'll go first and then I'll let you close. But, uh, yeah, if anyone wants to contact me, my email is [email protected]. All I would say is just as an investor perspective, right? Always conduct your due diligence. We were joking about me and coins and stuff like that.

Um, from the perspective of a financial services, I definitely agree that we are getting to a point where, especially in the United States into a transitionary period, Crypto or digital assets will be massively adoptive. Uh, I don't know how that will look like. Um, luckily not one of those people that makes the rules, but I think we are getting into that position.

So a platform like shin Tai, those firms like Conger wealth, um, and those individuals who are trying to be innovative to have. Provide greater access. How I mentioned earlier to the retail investor, whether it is tokenized assets of real estate or debt issuance, another form of equity, um, just always conduct your due diligence.

Uh, whether you talk with a financial advisor like us, or just hit Reddit as much as possible to find that information. Yeah. And from our side, um, you can follow us on Twitter app, chin time network. Um, and we're also on telegram with that same handle actions I network. Um, but yeah, I think for anybody in, in the crypto space, who's interested in mass adoption and wants to see where the regulatory compliant, digital assets side.

So things like where tokenized real estate. And securities and funds and other types of bonds and those types of products, if they want to follow and see that starting to actually emerge in real, tangible, blockchain based markets, give us a follow. Um, and likewise, if the passionate about it as we are about this idea of bridging between defy and.

You know, um, the underline checks token is going to play a core role to that. Then again, um, I encourage them to come and join the community and, um, we are definitely going to be having an interesting six to 12 months. So, uh, we hope to see more of your all right. Thank you guys. Both so much great talking with you.

We'd love to have you back on in the future. Um, but yeah, that's it. Thanks guys. Thank you.

Alrighty, Ryan, that is it for this episode of moon or bust. I thought that was one of our best conversations ever on the show. I know you're personally really interested in real estate. Uh, so what did you think about that? Yeah, I thought it was so cool. And there's so many far reaching ideas that they brought up with tokenization of real estate and bonds.

It reminded me of radical markets. I know we've both read that book and I need to read it again. Now after this interview, most definitely. If you guys tuned in after the start, we want to point out the Benzinga crypto channel top link in the description below. If you're new, around Benzinga or moon or bust, I'd like to say welcome, uh, and make sure you're subscribed to the main channel and also smash the like button while you're down there.

Um, but that's all we have for you today. Ryan, do you have any closing thoughts for. You know what I'm about to say, what follow you on Twitter? Check me out on Twitter. I still don't have as many followers as Logan. It's cause I'm cooler than you, man. It's that simple, I guess. Oh, well you do have a Bitcoin license plate though.

So that's gotta be where it's something. Hopefully one day. Maybe one day. Alright, that's enough. Let's get out of here. All right. Visa guys.

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Ryan McNamara

Bought sub $90 ETH during the bear market | Liquidated on ByBit | Was into DeFi before it was cool | Ran ASIC mining operation in 2016 (sorry planet Earth) | $UNI Bag Holder

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Unedited Transcript:

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Brian Moir

Solidity and React Developer | Blockchain Enthusiast | Decentralized Internet Advocate | Crypto investor since 2012

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Logan Ross

Blockchain Analyst @ Benzinga | President @ Wolverine Blockchain | Crypto investor and educator since 2016

https://twitter.com/logannross

Ryan McNamara

Bought sub $90 ETH during the bear market | Liquidated on ByBit | Was into DeFi before it was cool | Ran ASIC mining operation in 2016 (sorry planet Earth) | $UNI Bag Holder

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Disclaimer: All of the information, material, and/or content contained in this program is for informational purposes only. Investing in stocks, options, and futures is risky and not suitable for all investors. Please consult your own independent financial adviser before making any investment decisions.

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Unedited Transcript:

Yo, yo, yo, what is good? Everyone. Welcome to flight 63, aboard the moon or bust rocket, ship your home for all things, all coins and defy. My name is Logan Ross, and I'm going to be your host for today's show. I'd like to welcome everyone to the crypto show at Benzinga. If you're out there in the chat, I want to know what you guys are looking at.

What projects you have your eyes on this week. So drop them in the chat right now. Uh, will I go through all of the important links that I got to show you guys? So, uh, and make sure while you're down there, hit that like button and make sure you're subscribed to the channel if you're not already. So let's get right into it.

Boom. All right. On today's show, we will be talking to artists writer and filmmaker, Andy blood, and then we will be interviewing the project lead of . This is a huge crypto project. You guys don't want to miss out on this insight exclusive interview. Uh, so make sure you stay tuned. We'll be talking to Jake a little bit later on today.

Uh, so Ryan unfortunately is not able to make it, uh, but you are rocking with me. So, uh, I want to know what you guys are feeling, what you guys are thinking about the markets today. We will, uh, have lots of time for chat interaction. Um, and if you're new around here, we appreciate you tuning in, uh, hope you'll subscribe, hit the like button, and we also have a.

They a telegram community where you can join, it gets 25% off discount on the moon or bus merge, like this sweet hat. We got the moon or bus logo right here on the side. It's pretty hype, uh, and always, uh, as always make sure to hit us up on Twitter and connect with us there. So let's just get right into the markets, uh, for today.

There's a lot of cool stuff that I want to talk about. Um, and I want to switch the camera angles so you could see my full screen here. Okay. So what has been going on, uh, on today's market? Boom, like button click initiate. Thank you, Maxwell. Um, okay, so I'm just going to go over, uh, what, what I think is interesting until you guys drop some projects for me to look at and the chat.

Um, but we see a theme has been moving sideways a little bit. Uh, these, these are the hourly candles here and for the past, you know, maybe day, day and a half, uh, we've been kind of cooling off usually in the first half of the week. Uh, we, okay. Screen is too small. I can, I can fix that. What if I do one of those joints?

Boom, just like that. Okay, cool. Uh, so hopefully you guys can see that a little bit better now. Um, as you can see. So the second half of the week, the later half of the week, crypto usually cools off a little bit and the first half is really when it's ripping. So, you know, going into the weekend, the close, uh, of all of the, uh, you know, the Bitcoin futures, ETF and all these, uh, OTC market traded products.

Uh, it's just a little, usually a little bit quieter, but, you know, uh, okay. So we see Bitcoin has, has not been. Anything really interesting. These are the daily candles it's been moving sideways for quite quite a long time. Now, almost a week. It's kind of range-bound between, you know, this, uh, previous all-time high resistance.

Uh, and then this support that we have around 59,000 that came from, you know, much, much earlier in the year. Um, so let me know what you guys think is Bitcoin or ether going to take off first? Are we going to see. Uh, you know, it starts to take over and really control the market cycle because we've seen eith at three new all-time highs, whereas Bitcoin has only done one so far.

So, you know, is this, is this signaling the beginning of the flipping? Uh, we'll have to see, but let me know what you guys think in the chat below. Uh, so back to. You know, the top 100 overview, uh, some exciting news happened this week. Solana has finally flipped car Dano. Uh, I think this has been a long time coming.

If you, if you've been tuning into Mooner bus before you guys know that we, you know, we really prioritize on chain transactions in the ecosystem around these, these competitor blockchains. So we see a ton of stuff going on on Solana and Ethereum, but not too much has been happening in the Cardona ecosystem.

Uh, despite that the market cap has been over $60 billion for quite some time now, but Solanas is finally catching up, uh, $71 billion market cap. Now it's really taken a firm lead distance itself from car Dano. Uh, and that's pretty exciting. So if you guys are looking into Solano ecosystem, let me know, and I can talk about some projects that I'm looking at in the ecosystem, uh, and maybe take a look at some of the projects you guys are looking at as well.

Uh, Boom. Okay. So we got to chat here from sneaky won. He won one of the giveaways for the swag and he is repping letting us know that it is quality. I can confirm myself as well as I did make the hat. I did design it and create it myself. So, uh, head on over to swag.benzinga.com and you can see the full lineup of our products.

We got that. No chat, you centralize everything. We got to get technical shirt. Benzinga news, go Burr. We got tons of dope stuff. And then here is all of your crypto, alright. Back to the markets. So we see ripple, uh, is up 7% on the week. This one's kind of interesting. Uh, it looks like there. The lawsuit with the sec might be coming to a close.

And I think ripple is the winner here. You know, the sec might slap them with a fine try to make it look like they won, but they did not rule ripple as a security. So we might see it start trading on U S exchanges again pretty soon. And I think that is the main driver of this price increase over the past week.

I also heard some news about a ERC 20 wrapped version of ripple, uh, that, you know, despite whatever legal issues are going on, this wrapped token is kind of a loophole in the current law. So we might see Coinbase, uh, you know, list the wrapped version of ripple ERC 20 based, and that would allow us investors to get, uh, exposure to ripple once again.

So pretty bullish, uh, news going on for ripple. Uh, let me know your price target. And if you guys are trading it down below, we also see polka dot ha has finally gotten a little bit of shine. I've been calling this one for a while. Um, it's been, you know, very undervalued compared to the rest of the smart contract blockchains.

I mean, if you take a look at Cardinal versus polka dot, so let's just break it down. Both of them were started by theory. Co-founders okay. Cardona was started by Charles Hoskinson the motivational speaker. Uh, that's a joke. And then poke it out was started by Gavin wood. Gavin wood is actually the co-founder of Ethereum that I would prefer to place my bets on as he was the one who created the Ethereum virtual machine.

He created solidity himself. Uh, so he was really one of the biggest builders of, uh, you know, Ethereum. And I think that that will make his, his project polka dot much more successful longterm and polka.is more focused on connecting blockchains, becoming an interoperability protocol. Um, and for that reason, I see a more bullish future for polka dot than cardiac.

Uh, you know, most definitely, maybe even, maybe even Solano on some of these other projects, it has been pretty slept on though. The technology is kind of advanced. It's more of a fundamental play, which, you know, doesn't really take priority in a bull market. Uh, as you can see, you know, memes, hype speculation take priority in a bull market.

And that is why this, uh, beats here dog meme, uh, has a $30 billion market cap. But, uh, yeah. So poke it out up 16%. We're going to keep our eyes on that. Uh, let's see, what do we got here in the chat? Uh, Yoshi wants to take a look at BTC and rich says Eve moves first, and then she, that's very interesting. I'm curious to hear more about that, but we did take a short look at Bitcoin, but we could take another look.

Uh, so you can see here, I've had these lines going for a really long time. You may have seen them before, but basically, uh, I drew this triangle here, uh, and it turned out to be pretty decent as soon as we broke above the triangle right here. Uh, you know, I speculated maybe this green line could be our path to the top.

And what do you know over the next two weeks? It literally wrote it. Exactly. And I, I basically just got lucky, you know, all indicators are wrong, but some might be helpful. Um, I definitely like to point out the, these lines of resistance and support. I think that those are kind of good tools for saying, okay, if it breaks up here, uh, you know, this is where we might go, or if it breaks down, this is where we might go.

We just want to know the levels to look out for, uh, and be ready to react based on what might happen.

What's up Hadid. I see you out there in the chat. Welcome back. Appreciate you tuning in once again. And if you're just joining the stream, this is moon or bust your home for all things. Alt coins and DFI drop the coins you're looking at in the chat. And while you're down there, make sure to smash that like button, send it to the moon.

All right. Back to the charts. So we might've talked about this on Monday show, uh, but I think it's worth going over one more time. So you guys saw Facebook announced their name, change to Metta. They're trying to pivot to the metaverse and that has sent a couple of these metaverse cryptocurrencies, like literally straight to the moon.

So if we go, uh, take a look at decentral and this is one of the biggest and, and currently active, uh, metaverse blockchain applications right now and on the let's see, where can we see the seven. It's ranked number 41. So I'll just scroll down to boom. On the seven day decentral land is up 121%. Uh, it got to like almost $4.

Now it's back under three. Um, I think that this is, you know, it could be a good play long-term, but I'm looking at some of the other, uh, metaverse plays that haven't quite blown up yet. And one of them that I want to point out to you guys is a little project on Solana called star Atlas. Uh, Let me know in the chat, if you've heard of star Atlas before.

Um, but this is one that I'm insanely bullish on. I have been for a long time, I picked up some tokens earlier this summer, and basically I'm just forgetting about them for the time being, I think start less could be a huge, huge project, uh, you know, 10 years from now and, you know, picking up. Piece while it's the 264th biggest crypto.

Uh, I think it might be a good idea. So star Atlas basically is like an open world, blockchain game think like GTA and star wars combined. Okay. So you can form guilds, you can buy planets. All of these are represented by NFTs on the salon of blockchain. And you can also form guilds like interplanetary, guilds, and team up with your friends, battle against other guilds and steal their NFTs.

Uh, I think this is just a sweet concept. Um, and SPF himself, uh, sandbank been freed, the owner of FTX. Uh, he says that the team behind star, you continues to impress him. And, you know, I trust SPF. He, uh, has done nothing but write for my portfolio so far. So I'm going to continue, uh, to hold this Atlas token.

Let me know what you guys think of Atlas. And if there's any other metaverse plays you are looking at right now, uh, another Solano ecosystem project that I think is interesting is radium. So this is a decentralized exchange on Solana, and it's one of the most popular, if not the most popular. And I have some of these tokens as well.

I picked them up around the same time as Atlas earlier this summer. And I'm probably just going to ride it out, you know? Um, I want it to hold some Solano, but I figured I could get more exposure to the salon ecosystem by, you know, diversifying my funds into these smaller tokens. Then once, once more people start using Solano, realize what it is, they'll eventually find their way to these protocols.

So that's my thesis there. Mush wants to know if I have any. Man up predictions. So, you know, from a price standpoint, Manoj is really hot right now. Um, and that could mean two things that could mean that it's about to cool off soon. And it could also mean that this is going to be seen as like the blue chip metaverse play for crypto.

So the hype could be just starting in my opinion. Uh, but it's also kind of risky to buy in right now, just based off of the recent price action, uh, and the hype surrounding the metaverse. I think that if you're planning to hold, you know, for at least six months, it's probably going to work out for you. Um, but you know, always, always keep that risk reward in mind.

We see a fully diluted market cap of $6 billion right now for decentral land. And obviously Facebook or Meadows market cap is much higher than that. And we'll see who ends up, uh, you know, having the better product longterm. All right. Let's see. Max wants to take a look at C R O so we will do that. And then pretty soon here, we will be doing our first interview on today's show.

Uh, and you guys don't want to miss it. Okay. So CRO is crypto.com. The exchanges coins kind of like BNB, for example, uh, except crypto.com has a few interesting features that aren't offered by Binance and their token, uh, is used to support those. So one of the things that I think is pretty cool from them, uh, are their visa, cryptocurrency credit card.

So you can actually earn a cash back in crypto in CRO, uh, with these credit cards by staking their CRO token. So let's say you want to ball out, you stake 400,000 CRO tokens. This will get you the obsidian card and the obsidian card gets you access to the private jet partnership. So if you're balling out, uh, with that CRO, uh, you could really take advantage of it.

If you got in early, especially then, you know, you, you could probably get some nice perks. Pretty cheap. Uh, I personally don't have one of these, but I know some people who do they like them. Uh, and I think that they're only going to get better with time, but yeah, let's take a look at the price of CRO year to date.

Oh, wow. I did not realize it was taking off, like that's up 40% today alone. That's pretty crazy. I mean, we're seeing crypto.com uh, you know, launch a bunch of new advertising campaigns, uh, and, you know, get those sponsorships like on ESPN. I've been seeing them. Uh, so I think that they're probably just gonna gain more eyes and exposure over the next six months.

It might not be a bad play personally. I don't hold any CRO. Uh, but if I did want to get one of those credit cards, that would definitely be the move. Let me know what you guys think about these products in the chat is a crypto credit card. Something that, that you are interested in, uh, or would you prefer to, you know, hold most of your crypto in, in cold storage or, uh, and you know, not spend it, just spend your USD instead of.

Uh, so Brandon Brandy wants to know where do I go to buy Atlas? Uh, so actually the exchange I just showed you radium. So radium is a decentralized exchange on Solano where you can get access to all these salons tokens. So this is where I went to buy Atlas. Um, but you can also buy Atlas on a couple of exchanges.

Probably you can find out by clicking the market tab on coin market cap. Yeah. So it's on FTX, which is not available in the U S but you can get it on radium and the serum decks on Solano as well.

All right guys. And with that, it is time for our first interview of the day. So here with us, we have Andy blood. Who's a creative genius ex strategist at Facebook. He's launching the first ever minted book and publishing rights via a non fungible token. Andy, welcome to lunar bust. How are you doing today?

Kiarra, Logan. Nice to meet you. I'm doing good. Beautiful morning in Oakland. Oh, I'm so glad to hear it. Um, and I'm very glad you're able to join us today. So Andy, I want to know a little bit about how you got into crypto. What was the creative path that led you there? I was, um, I was at Facebook for five years and I was leaving in June, just as the company was tilting towards being, uh, the metaverse company.

And mark Zuckerberg gave his, his vision about, um, their future creators. The economy and how has the chance will all creators all over the world to, to, to get paid for what they're really good at doing, which is furnishing the world with creative ideas. And, um, that was immediately a path I wanted to get involved in.

And, uh, the, the last chapter of the book and there's, here's a, here's a hard copy of the book it's called, it's called fall blade. And the very last chapter, the closing chapter deals with the Playboy NFT Playboy's most successful NFT ever, um, is an image of a centerfold called Laina Soderbergh. Now in 1972, her image became the first ever digital digital image, the four runner to the JPEG.

And I'll show you a quick picture. Now, if you study computer science or mathematics, Or AI, that's an image. You'll know it's in thousands of white papers around the world about the, about the field of, um, image, image recognition, algorithms, AI, et cetera. And we'd made a documentary about Laina Soderbergh's life.

She's known as the first lady of the internet or the patron state of JPEGs. And Playboy reached out to us and said, look, we've seen the documentary. We love it. Can you put us in touch with Lena? Who's now a 72 year old woman in Stockholm. And, uh, we went sure. Why and Playboy said, well, we've got a great idea.

We've got an amazing back catalog that we're mentoring as NFTs. It's given us a brand new place to play in the modern, in the modern world with his archive. We've got, that is unlike any other. And, um, if we sell the or Soderbergh image NFT, then the funds or some of the funds will go to her. So actually five decades after her image was used by male scientists to create the JPEG, she was going to get paid via non fungible tokens in the very latest digital cash.

And that was such a beautiful bookend, that entire story and the closing chapter of the book. So the lane, his story, plus the pivot to met to metaverse, um, and then getting involved with the Damien Hirst, um, currency NFT, um, project in June, July suddenly became, this is where I'm going. And then the chance to launch a book as a world first NFT project became, okay, this is going to get headlines.

It's going to create a conversation, you know, is this book, is this a book? Is this an artifact? Um, is this a publishing deal? Because the reserve price was us $50,000 for the NFT. It's deliberately not cheap. And it just raises all those conversations about, you know, how are we creating for the future and the proposed metaverse and what forms can these creative endeavors take?

Okay. So I have two questions for you. One, could you tell me a little bit about, a little bit more about your involvement in the Damian her's currency project, and then, uh, I'd like to know what makes the, the NFT book a world first, what specific features of it are novel co unintended? Oh, I've been, yeah, no great punk.

I've been, I've been following Damien Hirst since he was a young artist in 93, 94, and then he exploded onto the British scene in the global scene. And in the last few years, I've been fortunate, fortunate enough to pick up a few of his physical pieces of. So in June, when he, when he went public with the idea that he was publishing 10,000 pieces of physical art known as currency, um, each individually recognized as an NFT.

Um, I just thought that was an amazing project to, to jump in because he attacked it from so many layers. You know, he's giving all the people that were, um, fortunate enough to be involved, um, the chance to either keep the art or keep the NFT, but you can only have one, you can't have two, you've gotta, you've gotta make that choice between the physical world and then, you know, the digital world or the metaverse.

And again, that's brilliant, you know, conundrum to juggle in the mind. Yeah, I know the code is our aspect of it is very cool. Yeah. And, um, I secured one and the prices have rocketed, um, at launch, uh, U us 2000 a piece of currency. And I think the floor, I think the floor price now is, uh, is about 30,000 us.

Um, will you be burning yours for the physical? No, I'm keeping the NFC. I'm keeping mine for my son because I think in, in 20 years he will probably think it's the best thing that ever passed on. Yep. I have to agree with you. Okay. So tell me more about the book, uh, what, where you launched it, what chain it's on, why you chose that, uh, and all the cool features about it.

Well, I'm based in New Zealand. So I wanted to, um, I found accessing NFTs from New Zealand, a particularly difficult thing to do unless you've got somebody handholding the process and the fact that, that. Um, you Zealand has a public blockchain called sens net. That was about to launch, um, an NFT platform for all New Zealand is called litho.

Um, at the same time that I was launching a book was, uh, was, uh, was a perfect opportunity for me. And it was a great opportunity for, uh, litho to, um, to go to launch with something that created a wider conversation about what could be an NFT. So for me, it was made in New Zealand mentored here for this audience, primarily because we want New Zealand is to get involved because we're missing out and then explore that opportunity because the, the litho centrality team also have a global audience space.

So there will be international interests, but it was also a domestic audience. And, and let's see if we can usher people to the world of NFTs and. The first collection, the full big bleed collection went up with 33 NFTs, three were related to the book in three additions, ones of ones. You know, I wanted to make them a unique opportunity to buy outright the ownership of the book and publishing rights so that you could, again, this could something that could be enjoyed in a digital form or an analog form.

And that's up to the that's beholden to the owner, the future on the side, what they want to do with that. And the additions were unique. They had, they had, um, unique covers that are different to the, to the paperback and Amazon edition. And then going one step further. Um, within the 44,000 words in the book, there is planted a 12 word C praise for a digital wallet on.

Now towards Thanksgiving, I'm going to make that address public. And then literally anybody who wants to, you know, try and crack that open, then go for your life. You know, if you, if you know how to pass 44 or 12 words for 44,000, go for your life, and I leave something in the wallet, um, you know, there'll be an undisclosed prize for anyone who might get in.

That's incredible. You know, it's the most creative way right now to publish a book. You can become the publisher. You can use the copy to crack open a wallet. You can enjoy the book, you know, and even the language we talk about owning a copy of a book gives you the chance to own the original. No, anyone can raise 5,000, you know, release paperback book.

You can own the only one that gives you the permission to own distribute and consume. so there's 33 NFTs. Three of them are special. Do all three of these come with ownership. Yeah. Okay. The book has mentored Mehta version. One is the full edition, uh, 70 chapters, 11 stories, ma Mehta version two is a 70 chapter edition.

And those chapters only focus on creativity. Massive version three is the black Swan edition, which is the 11 most remarkable stories in my career. The unexpected events, um, uh, you know, packaged in that edition. So there are three there's the master, the edit and the black Swan. And they come at different prices and the, um, the artwork sold out almost immediately.

So that collection has been live and the artwork sold out within 48 hours. Now the book NFTs didn't sell, but I think it's, it could be a year before people understand what that even means. You know, this is a kind of leading edge conversation with people. Um, I relisted them last night because of this interview because of the global audience.

So if they are live now for 48 hours, if anybody wants to, um, you know, have a crack at owning, owning the NFT, um, I've had, I've had offers behind the scenes from people who want to buy the book, then go and realist on open sea, um, for the secondary market. Um, so one way or another it's gonna work out, but also, you know, it's given me, you know, exposure to a market and an audience that I didn't necessarily have a connection or an infinity where there's given me huge headlines, great PR it's given me the open the door into the nit world, which I'm embracing.

I've got more collections coming up now, um, in collaboration with, uh, with an artist called red kitted out with, um, red kiddo who I work with a lot. And, um, this is what I'm going to do right now. I'm going to focus on this, you know, Or a market where creative people can get paid. So that means, you know, we've had 20 years where creativity was a loss leader for a media buy and now creativity has value and, um, you know, creatives in whatever form can now explore this space and take advantage of it.

You know, musicians, artists, writers, you know, uh, yet to be termed, you know, explore the space. So if you could really quick tell us where we could go to take a look at the NFT project and maybe place a bid on one of them, that'd be great. And then I also want to know, like, what do you hope to see, um, from your project?

Do you hope to see more artists getting into it, more authors getting into the NFT space? Uh, like if you could have one thing come out of your project, what would that be? Okay. Well, the, the, the book is NFC is available at leftover. Dot X, Y Zed. So litho versus the platform on top of the sense blockchain.

Um, so anybody can access Lissa leftovers. Um, you might need to, uh, transfer open up a sens wallet and do, to do some transfers. Um, what is the book about? The book is about creativity, um, to Isaac. So remarkable stories and hard won lessons from the coalface of creativity and the bleeding edge of advertising technology from, from some, from the point of view who, somebody who spent 30 years being creative for the world's biggest brands and Facebook, and to your final question, local, what Logan, why do this?

My entire career has been about lighting the fire of creativity within people, businesses, and organizations. And if this project can do that, and if this project likes a thousand flames, And produces a thousand more great ideas, then I'm happy and nothing else matters. Amazing. Andy, thank you so much for joining us today.

Uh, make sure you go check out litho verse.xyz, uh, to follow up on Andy's book and go check it out. It's still on Amazon, right? It's on Amazon paperback, Kendall and NFT. Thank you Logan. Awesome. Thank you for your time today. All right, next up on moon. Our bus today, we have another interview. This is the two interview special episode a and this one is equally as exciting as the first.

Uh, so here with us today, we have project lead and co-founder at Jake. Welcome to Moonbus. How are you doing today? Doing quite well. Logan. How about yourself? Doing very well, thank you. So, uh, let's just get right into it, Jake. So I want to know about your background in technology and cryptocurrency, uh, and how you found yourself where you are today, for sure.

So, uh, I've been a system administrator for like 20 years. So I, you know, I started getting interested in open source software back when I was in grad school, I used to be a science person. I was in a physics PhD program and didn't end up chasing that to the end of the game. And then I, uh, I got into cryptocurrency in 2013 because I saw that, uh, you know, cryptocurrency was really taking off and I thought it was a fascinating topic.

So I got involved. I worked on Bitcoin for a while. I got tired of that. And then, uh, we, we, uh, created an altcoin called D credit to address, you know, some of the issues that we saw as shortcomings in Bitcoin. Very interesting. So, uh, I'd love to hear when was decrim started and what were a few of those issues you, you sought to fix.

For sure. Um, decried wheat, we started working on it in February, 2014 and we did it in private. So it took about two years to go from an idea to a, to a launch. And then we launched it in February, 2016. We did an airdrop, we didn't do a, we didn't do the usual sort of insider pre-sales, uh, you know, that many of them, many other projects have done.

Half of it was airdrop. Half of it went to, uh, you know, developers as part of a small three mine. And then, um, the features that we, that we are, the issues we saw with Bitcoin were really three things is one is that minors had too much power in, you know, in the context of Bitcoin in the sense that they can block consensus changes, and essentially, and effectively.

The network from upgrading, that's obviously a big problem. Another, you know, another one was the tragedy of the commons that goes on with development work, which is anyone familiar with Bitcoin knows that it's hard to get and raise money to do development work. You have to have a product. You have to have some kind of a profit making activity to justify people putting millions of dollars behind your know, behind your team or to build something.

So it's hard to build things in that even includes, you know, the, the core software that is, you know, Bitcoin has the luxury of being the first and the, you know, the biggest cryptocurrency. You know how long that's going to hold up or, you know, who's going to fund all that dev work for how long is, is an open question, you know, Blockstream stepped in and same thing with, uh, what is it like chaincode labs.

And then I think the MIT media lab, uh, as well, so there's been a number of entities have been funding this development work for a while, but we decided to fund it ourselves internally. And then I, you know, I think the last thing that we, that we wanted to do to address was really just the, sort of the central planning committee nature of changes, which is that what we saw when we worked on Bitcoin was that a very small number of people had a huge amount of say in terms of, you know, what did and did not happen on the network.

And that's not necessarily a bad thing, but it does bring up a question of fairness. Is it really fair that just a handful of people run Bitcoin? When, in my opinion, one of the most interesting things about Bitcoin is that it kind of does away with the need for a central planning committee, with the Nakamoto consensus system.

Hmm. Yeah. No, very interesting. So, uh, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on kind of the modern venture capital landscape that's investing in these projects kind of centralizing them more, uh, and how differs from this. I know you said you funded it yourself. Um, but how do you continue raising funds on an open source?

Yeah. I mean, I th the, the process for raising money is, is, is a challenging one. When it comes to, uh, you know, developing technology. There's not a lot of people want to put a whole bunch of money on the table and risk it. You know what, just like with venture capital projects easily 90, 90 plus percent of these projects go to zero or very close.

So there's, so there's a lot of attrition in this game. So in order to meaningfully fund it, you need a lot of money to spread it across a lot of things. And then you can, you know, nine, nine out of 10 or nine, nine and a half out of 10 will, will crater. And the other ones are where you, where you make your make your money.

So th th that model in my view is, you know, it's, it's good when buckshot works. And then I, I feel like in the context of an open-source project is it's really challenging, right? Because anyone who's at all familiar with open source development knows that people do this kind of as. Matter of ideology, they care about something.

They want to go out there. They want to build something that maybe someone else hasn't hasn't built before, or hasn't built the same way. And then. And this idea that, well, how are we gonna make our money back? What are the investors going to say? Those two things are almost kind of, you know, inherently at odds.

So I feel like that's a real challenge for most projects that is that, you know, the project does well. And the projects price goes up because of investors and large, you know, big whale investors, but that's almost directly at odds with the ethos behind most open source software projects. And then in terms of how we deal with that, what we ended up doing is 10% of every block goes into a treasury fund.

And then that treasury fund is used to fund ongoing development and building out the network. Um, and we decided to do that because while we were working on Bitcoin, I was funding it and I just did it because I thought it was interesting. And you know how interesting it is really starts to be a question.

You ask yourself after a few years of doing that, it's like, okay, how many hundreds of thousands of dollars. Doing something I think is interesting versus going, ah, you know, eventually I gotta, you know, figure out a funding model for this. So that's how we've addressed it. And, you know, I think we have something over 600,000 decrease, uh, you know, in our treasury and that's like over $60 million.

So we have a nearly limitless runway as a result. So we don't necessarily need a VC investment in order to keep the, you know, the, at least the core of the project journey. We'd always like people to show up and buy lots of DECA. That's, you know, that's the dream of every crypto cryptocurrency, right? Is that you have investors and you have demand, but, you know, but, but the reality is, is that we can keep, we can keep ticking, even if that doesn't happen.

That's awesome. So talk to me about your consensus model, how you kind of, uh, took away some of the powers from the minors that you thought was too much and how you implemented proof of stake as well. Okay. Um, the, the way. The consensus system works in D credit is, is that there's, there's really the three-way split.

I'll talk about three-way split. And then I'll talk about how the two components work is our subsidy of every block is split three ways. 60% of it goes to minors. 30% of it goes to stake stakeholders. And then 10% of it goes to the treasury, the treasury just accumulates and then gets spent as necessary as contractors perform work for the project.

Um, but the proof of work and proof of state components, most people are familiar with proof of work that is, you know, you're solving hard computational problems with computers. And then, you know, if you mine a block, you get the reward. So that's how proof of work works. But what we did is that we interleaved a proof of state component.

And what do I, what do I mean by this? Um, proof of stake effectively has the ability to Trump proof of work as, and I know that's a horribly overloaded verb at this point. So, uh, you know, I apologize if that triggers anyone. So, uh, so what it comes down to is that normally when blocks are made it's by the miners.

So the miners have an effective monopoly on a writing to the shared ledger in a pure proof of work of cryptocurrency. In our case, what we do is we actually have effect like a second authentication factor, where there, there are voters and they vote on that block. And that allows us to do things like change our consensus rules on the fly, and while we're changing it so that we can keep the chain going, people vote on the consensus rules, and those votes are tallied from the stakeholders, not from the minors.

And then on that basis, we can actually activate new consensus rules, even if the miners don't approve them or try to block them. So what it does is it is it creates sort of a separation between miners and stakeholders. A miner is welcoming to be a stakeholder. In fact, you know, my, my, my read is that there are a number of miners who are already stakeholders and they, you know, they may be very sub you know, substantial stakeholders, but this process has been.

But this process has worked out pretty well in the sense that it diminishes the power of the proof of work of the miners. The miners historically, uh, are, are almost entirely located in China, whether they're Chinese or not as an open question, because while the machines may in the facilities may be located in China, it's hard to know who really owns those facilities or who owns those machines.

It could be somebody from the United States. It could be someone from Europe. It could be, it could be anybody. So, um, who owns those machines? That's an open question, but when it comes down to what they can do as a function of mining, that, uh, you know, that is strictly limited by the stakeholders. So if you sell all your coins as a proof of work miner, you can't, you can't participate in the governance the same way you could.

If you staked those coins and participated in the state, Yeah, that's a very powerful tool that you've implemented there, but I'm curious to know, has it impacted at all, uh, in your estimation, the ability to attract minors to your network, uh, or has that dual consensus been a selling point to attract people to the.

I think that, um, minors show up because they like to make money. And, um, I think that in terms of attracting miners, th th the entire mining game is pretty, uh, is pretty closely, you know, it's pretty tightly centralized. And when it comes to, uh, when it comes to attracting minors, I don't know if any cryptocurrency project really tries to attract miners.

That is that, you know, there's an incentive. People show up in mine and if they don't want to mind, they don't mind. So, you know, in terms of a diversity of monies, I think we actually have a pretty small group of miners with the credit, as far as I'm aware. And that's, that's a good thing and a bad thing.

So, you know, there's, there's definitely pros and cons to that. And it seems like we've had plenty of mining, but then, uh, recently, particularly, uh, as soon as, uh, you know, the, the communist party in China decided to push out, you know, basically make mining, uh, forbidden or, you know, basically push it out. Uh, we've had all, we've had some pretty interesting things going on with our hash rate.

It's been going up and down quite a bit. So things are, you know, it's mining for deep red is more centralized than I would like. Um, but you know, in terms of attracting more minors, I don't know. I don't think it's necessarily a detractor. I don't think people don't mind decrease because of our consensus.

Interesting. So, uh, we have someone out there in the chat. Isaac has, has commented on the, the China mining ban, uh, and he's actually a long-term minor of cred. Uh, he has a concern about the hostility of votes towards marketing. Do you have any thoughts or comments? I think that, um, it's very easy. I feel like lately there's been a huge amount of, uh, there's been a huge amount of concern trolling, unfortunately, uh, within the community about marketing as in, oh, there's a stilted towards marketing and marketing proposals are getting voted down and yeah, they are.

And I mean, it comes from the fact that when we get reasonable proposals, we will usually approve reasonable proposals as a group of stakeholders. And it's no one person who decides all this stuff. There is, you know, there's the stakeholders and the stakeholders determine what is, and is not, you know, a past a PR uh, proposal, but when it comes to, you know, whether, uh, whether a proposal is reasonable, there's a lot more to it than just does the proposal look reasonable on its face.

What is the history of the person who's made the proposal? What kind of work product have they generated over? How long, who, uh, you know, what else do those, does this person do on, you know, on, on the regular or how much money are they asking for? What exactly are they asking for? I mean, there've been some, some, some really tough ones recently where it's the, you know, there was, um, there was a, there was a guy, a freezers, um, uh, Dominic Frisby who had made, uh, who had made a proposal.

It was actually a very large proposal, uh, to, for the project to bankroll a couple. I think it was either one or two of his films. I think it was one, and it was a very large purples. It was hundreds of thousands of dollars to bankroll a film. And in return, what we would get is we would get a logo in the, in the bottom corner of the screen.

Now, despite my finding, you know, Dominic to be a pretty personable guy and, and likable and smart and all of that, um, What it comes down to, is it comes down to, is this a good financial decision or not? And to make a multi hundred thousand dollars spend to back someone's project that has very little to do with, uh, you know, the deep red project and in exchange for a logo in the corner of the screen.

I mean, that's, I don't think you're getting a huge amount of value. And I think that when it comes to marketing proposals, we've tried a lot of different things. So we've launched a lot of spaghetti. And so if people are just like, Hey, I want to launch the same spaghetti again. That's not exactly a compelling proposal in the context of, uh, you know, we're looking for new ideas and new ways to, you know, to do marketing.

Yeah, most definitely. I mean, if you take a look at Tesla, they've spent basically nothing on marketing and yet they're one of the biggest companies in the world. So the fact that you're focusing the money towards development, I don't think is a bad thing at all. Um, but of course that decision is actually up to the Dow.

So could you tell us about a little bit more about the Dow, how to join it, uh, and how these proposals are. Sure thing. Um, I think something worth pointing out is, is that, you know, our, our decentralized autonomous organization is really, it operates at the project level. It's effectively a layer, one Dow.

Um, there's, you know, there's a lot of doubts that operate, uh, as tokens on a theory, um, and a few other, uh, you know, sort of, uh, what is it like. Uh, smart contract blockchains. And the thing that really separates us from them is that in their case, they are almost all entirely premium. That is that they, they were created within tokens.

And then there was the usual sort of Silicon valley insider thing where it's either you were in, you know, you bought into the, you bought into the, uh, you know, the initial launch or you didn't. And then later on there's no mining. So there's no emission schedule for these, you know, for these things. So it's a finite predetermined number of tokens.

So in the context of , you know, we have, uh, it's effectively, our whole blockchain is, you know, is run by a Dao and is in, is, is, is in a sense a whole Dao that is that, you know, the ledger is part of it. The treasury is part of it. And then the contractors who work on everything are part of it along with the stakeholders and the miners.

So everyone is working together there and, you know, the way, the way it works is it. Everything goes into the treasury. And then what happens is there are proposals in our proposal system and we have a proposal system as an off-chain, uh, you know, it's an off-chain voting system so that people make proposals and then the proposals go up and the, uh, you know, the stakeholders vote on them.

And then when the voting is done, uh, uh, proposals either approved or not. And then every month, those, those, the contractors who have a winning proposal, we'll use that to fund their work. So, uh, so they'll bill and they'll invoice and then they'll get paid out. So mechanically, that's how it works, which is that people bill for their work at the end of the month.

And then they get paid and they get paid based on a proposal that was, you know, approved previous. Gotcha. Cool process. Uh, so could you tell me a little bit more about your integrations with the lightning network? Sure. So we're one of the few, uh, blockchains that supports the lightning network. Um, we haven't really been working, uh, you know, in terms of integration, integration is, is a bit challenging from the perspective of even, even with Bitcoin.

There's a lot of activity on the lightning network, but not as much as even people who are diehard Bitcoin maximalists would like that is, you know, it's a, it's a difficult process to get moving because it is substantially different than using a normal layer, one blockchain where you have addresses and you send transactions.

There's a whole bunch of extra state that you end up having to track. So in terms of how we've integrated with it, with it is we actually ended up adding the same support for the consensus rules that Bitcoin has. That is a, you know, the Segra that came with their segway change set. So we support most of that in or within D grid and then lightning network rides on top of it.

And in terms of how it's integrated is that it's effectively identical to how Bitcoin does it up to the part where they wait their transactions with, um, where they wait in the witness piece, uh, differently. But you know, that's a pretty technical detail. Most people don't care about. Yeah, we won't have to get into all of that today, but I'm curious to know, do you see proof of work by itself as an outdated consensus mechanism?

Proof of work has, you know, it has its strength, sentence weaknesses. So I mean, one thing that's and maybe what I'll do, maybe what would be instructive is for me to compare proof of work and proof of stake, proof of work is, uh, has been referred to by a checkmate as. Uh, unforeseeable costliness. Um, another way of looking at it as a is that it's an irreversible mechanism performing the bulk computations that you need to do.

Proof of work is an irreversible mechanism. It releases heat, you know, you perform a computation and then there's an, a. So it's really good in the sense that you can't. So if you're talking about reorganizing a chain or having a, you know, having a big chain reorganization, that's good from the perspective of it being expensive to create a competing chain.

So if you're going to create a competing chain, it's expensive, but then there's some really bad things about it. And here's one of them. One of them is that when you mind, you could just mine a whole bunch of coins, and that gives you a certain amount of power in any proof of work, uh, you know, cryptocurrency, you can dump those coins right away, and it doesn't affect the, your sort of sovereignty in that system at all.

So what I would, what I would describe that as is that is a weekly aligned incentive so that, you know, the incentive of miners is weekly aligned with that of the network itself. Um, you know, and, and, and the, the thing that I like about it, that's, that's really positive to me is that there it's kind of a mirror nominally meritocratic process, but then if you look at proof of stake, proof of stake is pretty different, which is that proof of stake.

It is effectively reversible. That is, you know, there's no cost to create forks in the chain. If you have a pure proof of work chain, there's no cost in the absence of a slashing mechanism or similar or penalty system. There's, there's no cost to making a competing chains. So that's obviously bad. That's sort of the, nothing at stake problem with, with, with, uh, pure proof of stake.

And then from an incentive perspective, it's actually a lot better in the sense that if you are staking and you're a major stakeholder, you're highly incentivized not to dump the coins because you hold those coins and that's how you stay. So, you know, if you're staking, you're not going to be dumping. So that's really good from an incentive perspective.

Now, the part I don't, I don't like about proof of stake is that it has, you know, there's a component of it that is, uh, could be described as, uh, I think oligarchic is, is. Overstating it, but I think that it feudal would be more, a more appropriate term in the sense that if you have the coins, you continue to have some coins.

So that, that process of sort of like, you know, my daddy's rich. So I'm rich is, is to some extent present. And I, you know, I bet based on your smirk, I expect you you've encountered this game many times in your life and, you know, that's, uh, you know, that's really sort of the long and the short of it. I think that proof of work can be good, but proof of work can also be bad.

I mean, imagine, imagine, imagine two scenarios, one where I'm where a manufacturer distributes, uh, minors fairly to anyone who shows up and, you know, wants to buy them versus. Somewhere versus a manufacturer who hoards those, those machines and never lets anyone else buy them. In the first case, you have a nominally fair distribution mechanism.

And in the second case, you have a pretty questionable distribution mechanism because no one else can get the minors. So, so the fairness and how good, not good, um, you know, a consensus system, proof of work is it really depends on the conditions. Awesome. Yeah, I definitely, I try to emphasize that point a lot that stickers are better incentivize.

Um, but we often don't see the flip side of that argument that it's much easier to fork in, you know, kind of take your own chain. So that's a very interesting, uh, you know, point that you have there next, could you tell me a little bit about the DCR token and all of its value adds and benefits and use case.

Sure. So, um, D credit is really designed to be a store of value. That is as much as, as much as anyone wants to, uh, you know, is that everyone wants to say X, Y, or Z as a store of value. What we're trying to do is we're trying to replicate the, the ability to store and send coins from, uh, from Bitcoin and then add things that we think, you know, substantially improved the quality of the network, such as, uh, the ability to adapt.

And do it at the stakeholders discretion that is go, you know, Hey, these are the rules as they are right now. And then maybe in the future, the rules change. Maybe they need to change for technical reasons. Maybe they need to change for, you know, environmental reasons. There's a whole bunch of different things that could, uh, you know, they can come up.

So you gotta, you gotta be ready to flex and adapt and change the rules. The other thing is, and I didn't really mention that much about it is, is that, uh, the security, uh, there is a security enhancement that comes from doing proof of stake and proof of work, which is that you get the security, uh, ads from both of them.

Uh, so it, it, it's roughly linear, uh, so that you have one, you have another, so that, that gives you an additive security boost. And then the other thing is really it's about sustainability. Building a network that runs on open source software for the longterm, whether we're talking years or decades or centuries is something that requires foresight and planning and funding and preferably funding that doesn't come from.

People who, you know, who have weekly aligned incentives with, uh, you know, with the network, say people who just want to get rich and get, you know, enter and exit and clock a big us dollar capital gain. Um, when it, you know, in terms of the features is we do have something that I haven't mentioned at all here, which is we do have, we have the highest participation rate amongst opt in privacy projects.

Uh, you know, that we're aware of. And what that means is is that if you care about privacy and you care about all these other things, like having a store of value, having a say in where the, in where the token, you know, and where the, the token or the blockchain goes and that you care about the sustainability of such a project.

Not only that we give you privacy. So, so we deliver a lot of privacy over 50% of our network opts in to use to using, or the circulating supply, um, is using privacy. And we've been doing that for a long time. We support the lightning network. We may or may not have something very interesting involving the lightning network coming soon.

And, um, when it comes to, uh, you know, when it comes to a project that does many, many things well decreased is, is, is definitely among the top of those. Most, most, uh, cryptocurrency projects are a one trick pony. They either do privacy or they do, you know, governance, or they do, you know, uh, or they do lightning network.

It's sort of, it's pretty limited, you know, even, even Bitcoin with as much, you know, market share and network. And, you know, developers is, has, has been mostly a one-trick pony up until this point. So, so. We aim by sort of doing many things well, to be a Jack of all trades and, you know, and, and, and draw interest on that basis and going forward, you know, we'll, we'll continue, uh, seeing more proposals, voting, voting the good ones in and voting the bad ones down.

And, uh, hopefully, uh, we'll, we'll make the right decisions as a group, as stakeholders. Awesome. So, um, I know it's up to the Dow, but if you could kind of tell me what's next in your mind, um, maybe what the development team is working on and what are some of the Dow initiatives what's exciting. You the most right now for the next year or two for.

Well, what's exciting me the most right now is, uh, we, we have, uh, several, several minor consensus changes coming up, uh, thing there's, uh, some issues we've had historically, we're going to basically be able to do consensus bug fixes soon. I'm excited about that. I'm very excited about an enhancement to our mixing.

Our saw our privacies, uh, you know, component of the project, which is that we're having post, uh, post quantum secure mixing in our next release 1.7. And that means that even people with quantum computers, whether they're on or off planet can, uh, can not, uh, figure out exactly where all the coins went or who owns them.

So we figured that's a, that's a nice touch. I don't believe anyone else has done that yet. Um, despite the, you know, despite some things that people done with confidential transactions, Additionally, you know, w we're we're probably gonna have a number of fun consensus changes coming up in the, in the near future here.

Um, and you know, in terms of lightening network, I, uh, I can only say this to be ready for a surprise when it comes to the lightning network. I like the sound of that. Uh, and that, that quantum, uh, you know, consensus upgrade is really interesting to me is this, like, in the, in the case that shot 2 56 gets broken, you want to have, uh, you know, protection against that.

Does P equal NP well, well, what, what I'm, what I'm specifically talking about is, so in our mixing process, we use this thing called a it's a, it's a derivative of it's based on coin shuffle plus plus. So that process is doesn't use post quantum secure, um, uh, public keys, uh, public key infrastructure. So.

What you could do is hypothetically, if you had a big quantum computer, you could watch the mixing process and then grind out which, which coins went where now this is, this is a, you know, this is a theoretical attack, but what, what, what this change that we're making does is it makes it, so even if you have a quantum computer, you cannot do that.

And so the reason we decided to do this is because if you do this on chain, you make the whole chain, you know, PQ secure. Um, the size of transactions goes up by about, uh, like five X plus, which is obviously pretty undesirable. You don't want big transactions on a blockchain. It's expensive. So, um, so what we decided to do is to make the mixing process, which actually occurs partially off.

As we, as we will go post quantum there, because then we don't have to worry about the size considerations. Gotcha. Do you see the, uh, you know, the shuffling process as potentially a regulatory issue, do you see, you know, obviously public blockchains, like Bitcoin, the government can use them to track where funds are moving.

Um, but I'm concerned they might take a stance against them. Does this concern you as well? You know, from a regulatory perspective, I think something that's that I view as a sad direction that govern that nation, state governance has been going. I think a bit of a topic change, but is that, is that nation, state governance has been going towards the, because we can monitor everything.

We should monitor everything. I disagree with that at a fundamental level, this idea that, you know, you and I are as normal people need to be constantly tracked and surveilled in every aspect of our, of our human existence is, is ridiculous to me. You don't need to know every, every asset that every person has on the planet in order to be, to effectively govern them or to, you know, or to, or to keep your government were in good working order.

I think this, this notion that you need to be able to serve, you know, 100% surveillance, 100% of the time on everybody is, is a joke. And then that it's a bad way to run a society. So that for, you know, with that in mind, I really disagree with, with where things are going. Maybe it could be a regulatory problem, but I think as a matter of principle, I, I highly disagree with it.

And correspondingly, I think that all communications online should be encrypted and they should be done that way because no one, you know, if I'm talking to Logan on the internet, who else has businesses that other than me and Logan's, so it's a, you know, that. I believe strongly when it comes to, you know, thoughts, uh, speech and all of that is that custody is king.

And so other people shouldn't have custody of the things you're saying or doing it's, it's a, it's an awful rabbit hole. And then what what's bound to happen is the central planning committee that runs everything is just going to, you know, basically, uh, dictate what you can and can't do. I think there's you got to draw the line somewhere.

Yeah, no, I think that's what blockchain is all about. That's why I'm in this space. And I, and I truly hope to see a societal shift towards, you know, our viewpoints with the growth and expansion of blockchain. I think governments will end up realizing that they're kind of shooting themselves in the foot and forcing capital out of their borders.

Uh, and you know, if they don't, it will be too late for them. So crazy world we live in today. Yeah. It's um, yeah, this whole surveillance surveillance as governance. It's like guys, I think 99.9% of people are good people and that they're not, you know, they're not out there to, you know, saw people's legs off or, you know, commit awful crimes.

They're just trying to live their lives. And so this idea that you have to watch 100% of the people to catch the 0.1% who are like legitimately bad is ridiculous. You know, if people are, if people are bad, actors, governments need to get out there and catch those bad actors like they used to before everything was constantly surveilled.

Well, Jake, unfortunately we are out of time today. So I just want to give you the floor for one last time. If you want to make any shout outs or let the audience know about anything you've got going on, where they can connect with you now. The revolution will not be centralized. Decreed is where it is, where to look to see that revolution.

Uh, you're welcome to meet us out and meet up with us online chat.de kra.org or the website dickhead.org to check it out and learn more. Awesome. You guys heard it here first? That is it for moon or bus today? Uh, stick around for pre-market prep at the close, and I will see you guys back on Monday, uh, but until then have a great weekend.

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Unedited Transcript:

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Subscribe to our Benzinga Crypto Youtube Channel Episode Summary:

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Meet The Hosts:

Brian Moir

Solidity and React Developer | Blockchain Enthusiast | Decentralized Internet Advocate | Crypto investor since 2012

https://twitter.com/moirbrian

Logan Ross

Blockchain Analyst @ Benzinga | President @ Wolverine Blockchain | Crypto investor and educator since 2016

https://twitter.com/logannross

Ryan McNamara

Bought sub $90 ETH during the bear market | Liquidated on ByBit | Was into DeFi before it was cool | Ran ASIC mining operation in 2016 (sorry planet Earth) | $UNI Bag Holder

https://twitter.com/ryan15mcnamara

Disclaimer: All of the information, material, and/or content contained in this program is for informational purposes only. Investing in stocks, options, and futures is risky and not suitable for all investors. Please consult your own independent financial adviser before making any investment decisions.

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Unedited Transcript:

Don't miss your free chance to tune into Benzing his very own bootcamp series on November 20th. If you're looking to dive into new concepts and grow your account, this one's for you. GM zingers. My name is Logan Ross, and I'd like to welcome you to flight 61, aboard the moon or buzzed rocket. Ship your home for all things, altcoins and defy.

We've got a great show coming up for you today. Let's get right into it.

Joining me today is number one, Dex trader pirate, Ryan McNamara here. Lay, put my costume on as well. Hi, how are you doing Ryan? R I'm doing well, Logan. How are you at the holiday? Happy Halloween to everyone out there. Uh, let us know what your costume is going to be. Drop it in the chat below. Uh, and we will highlight our favorites.

So, Ryan, what are we doing on today's show? Oh, we got a lot coming up. We'll be interviewing pastel network. It's a network for NFTs. It's launching soon super cool stuff. And we'll also be looking at everybody's favorite dog coins. We'll go over some Sheba, IE new we'll be going over some Floki as well as some of the smaller ones that might be on the come up.

So stay tuned for that. Very, very cool. So before we get started, okay, I gotta take this out. I can't, I can't even talk before we get started. Thank you. Yeah. I need everyone out there in the chat who's watching right now to go down into the comments section and let us know the crypto projects. Maybe even specifically the dog coins you are looking at this week, what are you trading?

Let us know so we can take a look at it. Uh, and then while you're down there, make sure to smash the like button. So, uh, everyone else can find this content easier. We could grow the moon or bus family. Uh, and also if you're here for crypto content, there is the Benzinga crypto YouTube channel. We're starting some exciting new shows, uh, over there, hopefully next week.

So subscribe if you're not already a, and also if you're new, we appreciate you tuning in welcome to the fam uh, subscribe to the main channel. If you're not, and you can join the Mooner bus community on telegram for a 25% off discount code on the moon or bus swag as always make sure to connect with us on Twitter right there.

We're doing a giveaway of $50. Uh, NFT conference put on by queen gecko. Uh, we're giving away tickets and both of us. Oh yeah, no good point. We are going to be hosting pedals there, uh, at coin gecko con. So make sure you guys go check that out on, on Benzinga Twitter as well, retweet and follow us both for a chance to win.

Uh, okay. So we're going to be on at that conference, Logan. I forgot I'm doing like the NFT music industry panel. Okay. So I'm doing the metaverse panel. I'm really excited for I'm doing Anna mocha brands and this guy is absolutely insane. He sold a cloud computing company to IBM in 1998. Then he played the apple app store in like 2010, had like 15 different apps in the top 100 and apple actually deep platform to him.

So after he got the platform, he went really hard on blockchain based games. He funded private rounds from ECC, infinity decentralized and open seat. So I am so excited for that. Quite the sales pitch. Ron, you got lucky on that interview. Uh, I'm actually not too sure about my guests yet, but I will update you guys.

So make sure you guys go check out Ryan's metaverse panel. That's pretty dope. And then maybe I don't think Chris signed up, so maybe we can get the econ panel too. That'd be cool. Just a little something, something. Okay. Let me share my screen. Uh, and we can take a look at the markets. So as always, we're starting with Bitcoin and Ethereum, and then we'll go over and look at the Dogecoin.

So what do you think? Sounds like a plan. Sounds like a plan. I don't even know if we have to do Bitcoin today. Uh, Let's just start off with our new, all time high sweet baby eith. Uh, here we have the one minute candles and you can see here just a couple hours ago. We hit this new all time high at $4,470.

Drop a comment in the chat. If you're an eighth bag holder, uh, let us know what's up. We've been following eith for way too long. So if you guys have been watching, hopefully you got in early. Uh, let's see, what else do we have here? I have to, to get some new tabs open, let's pull up coin market cap, uh, and maybe we can zoom out on Eve.

Yeah. One as much as I love one minute candles. I think that one hour in daily candles probably tell a better story, especially with that beautiful triangle. You true? Here's your story, Ryan? Why don't you tell. I mean, you drew that triangle, but I mean, I can, I can do my best. So it looked like we went up, we had a previous resistance there maybe right around $4,000, which seemed like a psychological resistance, which we were able to break through.

I think this, uh, this was a pretty good triangle Logan, because we did break up above it and it looks like we did hold it. So congrats to you for those lines in the sand. It looks like it did work out so far. We'll see if we can hold it. I mean, I think the markets are really bullish right now. I think there's a lot of new attention in crypto because of all these dog coins.

So I think that we're probably going to hold above it. And I think, you know, it's interesting because usually Bitcoin leads the way with Ethereum and it did to a degree, you know, Bitcoin hit a new all time high, but we really see the mania with these dog coins right now, which usually comes later on in the cycle once, you know, Bitcoin and Ethereum really rips.

So we'll see what happens. But I think it's a bullish thing though, because a lot of these people buying the dog coins are new to crypto

If you guys, uh, are looking at the dug coins this weekend, while you're down there, if you're just tuning in, make sure to hit the like button, do us a solid well pirate coin. How's it going? Doing? Let's find out what is pirate coin, right? Oh, it's a revolutionary new cryptocurrency on the, I just started and it's on coin market cap actually.

And it has actually decently large market capitalization. I forgot exactly how much to start this for a quick pirate coin. Argh. I'm the CEO of pirate coin. Can't you tell what is this shit, bro? So fully diluted market cap of $37 million. I mean, not bad for a day's work I really had to do was put on an eye patch, a hat and get to coding.

Uh, you know, it's on finance smart chain. My favorite blockchain to make tokens on the slippage is only 7.9% or seven to 9%. I can't read well with the iPad. Oh, my God. Right? This is a pretty nice website that you threw together this morning. Thanks. I actually hired someone on Fiverr to do it. Oh yeah.

Good, good idea. Got outsource. Everything. Exactly. Uh, and full disclosure. This is a joke. Ryan did not actually make this coin or did he looks like I made it fall and crack, right? He's the CEO of Bitcoin. I am the CEO of pirate coin. There is no debate. Can you tell the CEO of Bitcoin to send the price up?

Yeah, let me just add such Craig. Okay. Let's see what happens if we type the new into wait, what? Come on. I want all the news Chico. He knew I have not heard of that one yet. I know. That's the new wave, bro. It's the Sheba. Floki safe. Moon killer.

Okay. So on a real note, let's actually take a look at our favorite dog coins here. So what should we start with dojo? Yo, you can sort by meme coins now on coin market cap, doesn't have all the good ones. I saw a filter. It doesn't have the coin on it. Damn. I don't even know how to do it. Actually. I just saw that you could watch lists portfolio.

I would think it would be down by cryptocurrencies where categories defies NFT is. Oh, I see. I see. I see. Maybe there's another filter you can use. Ah, Frick, man. What the heck?

How do I coin market cap filters? Come on baby. All right. This might be a lost cause. Yeah, I think we should just use trading before it. I think shading view should have at least she, but you knew in Floki at this point. If not, we could maybe try and use Q coin or something.

The other categories, doggone dog. I don't even know what this means. Is this all the dog coins? Oh, we got it. We got it. We got it. We got it. All right. Here are all of the dog coins in the top dog position we have Sheba knew right now, ripped past doge. Uh, I'm curious to hear what you guys out there. Think about the flipping.

Okay. This was a meme that was going on all year long. She was going to flip doge is the doge coin killer personally. I didn't think it would actually happen, but I was wrong. And I'm here to admit that today. So drop a comment in the chat. What do you think this means? Uh, you know, for the ecosystem as a whole, you have any big picture ideas, Ryan, what do you think about the flip ending?

I think it's ridiculous. I did not see this coming whatsoever. Dumbfounded when I saw it, I knew it was going up fast. I saw it past chain-link and it was like the 15th largest cryptocurrency. I wasn't sure how much higher it could go from there. I already had over a $10 billion market cap and it happened, I mean, I thought doge would probably be going up with Sheba when this all took off, but it's really lacked behind it's down 10% today, only up 21% on the week.

Uh, so I mean, I'm very surprised Shiva did that, but congratulations to all you Shiba Inu holders out there, you did it. You flipped doge. Now all that's left is to flip Bitcoin. And then after that you can reach 1 cent. Um, man, do you think that this suggests that Eve kid flipped Bitcoin. I don't know if it's just, it might be, it might be a reach, but I still think that theorem could flip Bitcoin this market cycle.

I've said it before. I'm not sure if it's more likely than not. I think it's probably less likely than not, but I think it's still a possibility of Ethereum could flip Bitcoin this market cycle. But yeah, I don't know with all these stock coins, if that's really telling of like an incumbent, being able to be flipped by a new entrance into the market, but it's certainly possible.

We saw it with Sheba. You knew let's see it with Ethereum. That would be the day we'd have to throw a Mooner bus party live in Detroit when Ethereum flips Bitcoin and everyone out there is invited as long as you smash the like button. Uh, okay. So why is Floki news down here so far? I thought Floki would be bigger.

I did too. I mean, that's kind of, kind of interesting. It's a $2 billion market cap. How there's no way that that's. Yeah. See, it's not yeah. Coin market cap, rinks or coins kind of oddly, because just because it's self-reported or something. Yeah, that'd be a good guess. I think what the heck, man, what happened to my dog coin filter folky.

And he has been going crazy though. It's up 43% today over the week. It's like 200%. So again, congratulations to my Floki new holders out there. Uh, we did a show on them a few weeks back. I said, I wasn't going to be investing in, I guess I missed out, but Hey, I mean, it is what it is. You really float up or.

Good one, Logan. Thanks, man. You could see here that, uh, the reason it's so far down on coin market capitalist is because it has that self-reported market cap. So it's actually worth $2 billion, which places it in the third biggest dog coin spot, right above DOH. Jalon Mars. Uh, I've. Haven't heard of this.

Some Moya, some weighted coin or safe moon. He knew we need to get, we need to write some articles on these okay. Yeah. That dojo on Mars, man. That's been getting so much attention lately, really out of nowhere, I guess it's just due to Sheba new, but it is up like crazy as well. We see 70% in one day we're in buffet could never, and 185% over the past week.

So absolutely ridiculous returns right now. Dogecoin mania, for sure. How long do you think this is going to last Logan? I think we're pretty close to the top of this. You know, I think that that Sheba is probably close to the top. I think it's probably doge coins turn now. So, uh, I don't know. Uh, it's, it's an interesting thing because like maybe Sheba has more room for money to flow into it because it's based on Ethereum, whereas doge coins like its own blockchain.

So it's like a single use case, but, but Sheba, uh, could continue to, you know, get that other money from Ethan due to imagine. Imagine if open, see ads, Sheba, uh, to purchase NFTs. That would be ridiculous. But I think that's extremely unlikely. Um, I mean they only have one area wrapped Ethereum and polygon is on open seat right now and probably gonna make sense because they use polygon for their layer two solution.

And then of course, if your mic is to buy NFTs yeah. There's also di and USB-C oh yeah. And, and like if Coinbase accepted all cryptos for, for NFTs, then, you know, I think that it would probably just push everyone else to do it. You know, like only one person has to do it and I don't see why not. Like, it seems like a fine idea to me.

So Sarah Russell out there in the chat says, where can you buy Floki? Uh, so I dropped the link to our money site, article, how to buy Floki new, go check it out there. Uh, and also we got a promo going on with, uh, fi $5 in free ship. If you sign up with VBL yeah. Should have signed up last week. It would be like $20 in free ship.

Now don't miss out. Don't sleep. Go check it out. Okay. So any other dog coins you guys are looking at in the chat? Uh, or Ryan, do you want to take a look. Yeah. Can we take a look on trading view and look at it? Maybe she be anywhere at least. And then if anyone else wants to see other dog coins that are on trading day, we could look at those as well.

Probably unit swap would be your best bet. Well, that works too. Now for something like this, we should probably not use daily Canada, not the hourly candles. That looks good. That's crazy. Literally this is one week. Look at this volume. Oh my God. Yeah. Oh, and it looks like, okay, I'm going to draw some more fake lines here, but look what we see.

Look what we see. We see this, this triangle forming here. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Something like that, right. And it's broken out of it. It's broken up actually. Is that bullish? Yeah. I mean, I would say it broke out even sooner. If you connect the previous local tops, then in say even Seper line, and then we are broken out.

Like if you go even further to the left, look into those other local tops, but either way now we are seeing higher lows and higher highs, which is typically a bullish signal. Again, these are only the hourly candle, so it's kind of hard to trade based on them. I know a lot of people do anyway. Uh, but we could see another leg up.

It's it's pretty hard to tell at this point, I mean, so many people have made a hundred percent or more on their investment. I'm sure a lot of people are trying to take some profits at this point, but at the same time everybody's talking about it. Right. And now it's available on Etro it's available on weeble and Coinbase.

So many new investors have access to Shiva. You knew that didn't have access during the first pump back in may.

I just had an idea and then now it's gone. What a, what a man, just like that. Um, what about, uh, the, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So what about that guy who made possibly the greatest trade of all time? $8,000 invested in CBE new last year is now $5 billion, but the thing is this wallet address has not taken a single bit of profits yet, and only a crazy person would sit through $5 billion of gains without taking any profits.

Okay. So you could buy the most expensive yacht in the world and still have billions leftover. So I think that that the private key is lost to this wallet is lost. What do you think? I agree. Yeah. I mean, there's almost no way, right? Unless you have the most diamond hands out of any investor in the entire world.

It's really cool to see though. I think it would be considered the best trade of all time throughout all of economic history in $8,000 to $5.6 billion in about a year. It's absolutely ridiculous. But like you said, he didn't take any profits and you have to remember, like throughout this whole year he had millions of he or she had millions of dollars and then it turned into billions of dollars and then it turned into several billions of dollars.

So I do think he lost his private seed. It is possible that they're just holding onto it though. I would love to see them take. And to confirm that they didn't actually lose their seat. But I think at this point with so many people speculating that they did lose their private seed, they would probably, you know, like sell a little bit or move something into the wallet to show that they still have access to that wallet.

So, yeah, I think more likely than not, they probably put that $8,000 into Shiba Inu their seed phase. And now there's $5.6 billion worth of Shiba Inu in a lost wallet. This reminds me of those Bitcoin miners back in the day who also their computer or their wallet with hundreds of million on it. Same feeling.

Yeah. Uh, okay. So on that note of crazy crazy trades, we saw a crypto punk sale last night that broke Twitter. I'm trying to find it right now. Uh, uh,

Ron, you want to tell us a little bit about this, this crypto punk say. Yeah, so I'm pretty sure it was so be right, Logan, it was Sobe who bought it. I don't. Was it soapy? I'm pretty sure it was. Um, I thought it was someone else. Loon luck also tweeted. It was his, but he was meaning I think it was Sobe on Sophie owns a ton of me bets, I think like 250 plus me bits and also has a crazy collection of crypto punks, which I think is in the hundreds.

Uh, Basically here, what people are speculating and you can see it on chain. So this is actually what happened. Uh, this guy got a flash loan with crypto that he was able to buy this crypto punk from himself and then payback the loan all within one block to make this record sale. So this isn't a legitimate sale per se.

It's not money laundering, but at the same time, it is I think, to just create some hype around crypto punks right now, the previous highest sale was an alien, which makes sense because there's only nine alien crypto Ponts and those sold for $9 million. Now this one, the white hair is cool. You know, Hayden Adams, founder of slap uses a crazy white haired crypto punk on his sturdier profile picture.

It's a pretty rare trait, but it's not worth anywhere. $500 million maybe close to a million, but definitely not 500 million. Uh, but they pumped the market to a degree. I think I wasn't really paying attention to the floor, but I noticed just a few minutes after this happened, somebody played $87 million bids across the board for the alien punks, but those have since been withdrawn.

So I think that the person realized, you know, this guy had a flashlight and bought the punk from it himself. It wasn't a legitimate sale. And then withdrew those bids because they didn't feel comfortable spending $90 million and having legitimate. Yeah. They withdrew them. I checked this morning, so those bids are not on the table.

Which kind of makes sense. Right? I would be willing if I had the money, I'd be willing to pay $90 million for alien punk. If there is a legitimate sale of a $500 million punk, that wasn't an alien. Uh, but since it wasn't really legitimate, um, they, they withdrew their bids, but no one took them, which is interesting.

They were up for a few hours and those alien punk owners, I mean, they must have saw them write a $90 million bid on their punk and they could have sold, they could have sold, but they did not. So, I mean, that kind of tells me, you're going to have to spend more than $90 million to get an alien punk these days.

I mean, the people holding onto those or holding on to them with diamond hands. Exactly. Exactly. So one person valued all of them at $90 million each and none of them sold, which means the whole there's value them much higher. That's kind of crazy. Uh, so Ryan, why don't you tell us about this little page you put together.

Yeah. So a few months ago I made this crypto punts watch lists. we try and keep it updated, but the markets move super fast. So, you know, DMS on Twitter. If you see someone new, who's famous, get a crypto punk, we'll add them to this watch list. But we created this to track all of these famous people who now own crypto punks, and usually, almost all of them use it them as their Twitter profile picture.

So that's pretty cool to see, uh, who someone else just added a crypto punk into Jordan. Jordan Belfort. Yeah. We got to add to add him to the list. Um, but yeah, check out this page. It's a really cool. And did you see that little baby now has support? Hey, did he tweet anything out about it or did he just do that?

Yeah, he didn't tweet anything out about it yet, which is sad. I wanted to retweet it, but we see a little, baby's got the baby board eight. Yeah, nothing, nothing yet, as far as an announcement from the slime himself, but we do see his PFE has changed. And while it may seem like, like a little baby is not really like a, it doesn't, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

I think that little baby's influence within the rap community is actually very big and it will do a lot to, uh, you know, influence the, a lot of like serious collectors potential buyers. We also see, you know, Jay Z of course has it too. So, uh, it's clearly spreading very quickly. Uh, and I think that this is actually very cool.

I think that it's gonna going to help the market grow a lot.

So Logan, do you want to take a look maybe at Floki anywhere, some of these other dog coins that are giving Sheba a run for it? Yeah. So I don't even know if they're on trading view though. I ain't check. See if they're on trading view. Floki new, bro. We have to set up an interview with them. We do. Yeah, we're getting, we're going to be having Floki knew someone from the team, come on, moon or bust, uh, pretty soon here.

So make sure you guys are subscribed if you're not already. So you can catch that episode as well. All right. So here is Floki. These hourly candles are kind of ridiculous. Yeah, it hurts, man. It hurts. It does, it does hurt a little bit. So what is this like a maximum of six to three. It's like a five X in the course of two, three days.

It's approaching a 10 X it's approaching a 10 X four zeros. Yeah. It's at like five X right now. All right. Yeah, I guess so. That's crazy though. $2 billion for the Floki meme. You think that that meme is good enough for a $2 billion market cap? I mean, if she be new, has a market cap of $50 billion, the relative valuation of Floki could be argued that it's undervalued.

Yeah, exactly. Is Floki EU undervalued. Let's let's see in the chat guys, what do you think is Floki new under valued? I certainly think it's not undervalued, but you know, we all have differing opinions. Yeah. I mean, personally, that's not the type of thing that I want to have in my portfolio necessarily, but like, Hey, gains are gains at the end of the day.

All right. So stacking nine millimeters in the chat says check out quiche. He knew. Uh, and let's see how big is Kesha compared to the other world? It's maybe it's not listed.

Jonathan. I see your comment in the chat. Yeah, there is pretty high charges on Floki. They do have a reflection fee, uh, which both organized, we aren't very big fans of any tokens that have reflection fees. The token Nomics really don't check out for long-term sustainability. So definitely do your research on reflection fees, what they actually are, but yes, it is very expensive.

So it's a 8% transaction fee for every time you buy or sell the token. So for example, if you decide you want to invest a thousand dollars in the Floki email, they will charge you $80 upon the first transaction when you buy it. So they'll give you $920 out of that thousand year invested, and then say it goes up to a thousand dollars.

Then you have a thousand dollars and you sell it, then you'll have $920. So even if it goes up, you need to make back essentially 16% just to break even. And that money goes to the creators of the coin as well as it gets distributed to other holders of the coin for holding onto. Yeah, exactly. And it is distributed proportional to the other holders position.

So the biggest holders will make all the money, uh, promising little guys, passive income, uh, which I really am not a fan of personally. It just seems kind of slimy, uh, and not in the little baby kind of way. Um, okay. So any other coins out here in the chat, Jonathan says anyone attempted to FOMO in, what do you think.

I've had a few friends who have FOMO in over the past couple of days. I certainly haven't. I mean, if I were to be buying his claims, I think it would be during a bear market. And it would be with a hundred or $200 to speculate that maybe they'll moon again, during the next bull market. Damn Raza was the actually turns out the one who made that $5 billion.

But someone broke his laptop. So now it's gone. That's all run out, pouring out for the older as Floki is going to 1 cent. Let's see if that makes any sense. Okay. Yeah. See what the implications are of Shiva EDU, going to a penny. We actually, oh, Floki not Sheba. Okay. Okay. So we need to, maybe we have to do analysis on this, a fair money article like we do with Sheba.

Okay. So it needs a three X to get to a 10th of a cent, and then we need the 10 X from there. So it's like a 30 X. So it's market cap would go from 2 billion to $60 billion, uh, putting it well above Shiba Inu, and let's see where it would land on the list of actual, I mean, uh, not so much fun, memes, less fun, not dog coins.

Um, man words, Solano then. As the largest cryptocurrency by market cap. So yeah, you never know what happens. Shiba flipped out and now it's the eighth largest cryptocurrency in one sense, it's pretty ridiculous gains, but it's not, not, not impossible. I guess. It's, it's extremely unlikely though. I would not be taking that home to the bank.

That focus is going to 1 cent. I mean, I think we're already pretty close to the top for these dot coins. Yeah, definitely. Don't schedule your Forbes interview yet. Uh, I think that this, the attention is going to move over into Bitcoin and more specifically Ethereum over the next couple of months here. So, uh, I am personally taking profits on my dog coins and moving them into eith.

Um, I just think the risk is too high at this point. Um, but it's always fun to speculate, you know, with just like some small amounts, uh, that you're totally fine with with Lu.

KW 5g. I see you said that they lowered their fees on Nina swept to 3%. That's pretty interesting. I'd be interested to know whether or not they did this for pancakes swap as well. Maybe they didn't because Ethereum charges such high gas fees in the first place that you're already out so much on your investments and I'm Binance smart and you're only paying pennies.

So they think they can justify still charging that 8%. Yeah. I wonder what they took out, uh, whether it was the marketing fee or if it was like the, a redistribution fee, maybe it's just 50, 50, a 1.5% to each of them now.

Uh, you want to do a little bit of NFTs. Do you have any, you want to look at the Mecca verse. NFT is now down to under one E and we saw them up to like seven or eight, just a few weeks ago, which was really interesting to see. Um, I kind of understand, I mean, they minted at 0.2 Eve and then immediately resold for five Eve.

And then they had this whole debacle with their developers being able to see the metadata of the NFTs before they were actually revealed. So they were able to actually rig it, kind of get some of the rare NFTs. Uh, so yeah. Yeah. And, and it's such a new NFT to where there was so much hype behind it. And then it was instantly worth like $25,000 that there was probably a correction waiting to happen.

And then we did see that, especially with all of these other crypto's ripping, right. Danny makes a good point in the chat. The normies are just getting. Uh, yeah, they are definitely just getting in the dog coins, the NFTs, that's bringing them in to the space and then likely they'll kind of figure it out.

Uh, and then, you know, switch over to, to Bitcoin or Ethereum or something like that. Um, maybe even Solana we'll have to see. Uh, but yeah, so Ryan, we see the pudgy penguins floor has fallen down, uh, to finally below where I sold. So I don't feel like paper hands anymore. Congratulations. And I sold that 1.7.

Don't forget it bought for one seven. Yeah. That's, that's a pretty good trade, especially just with my days, right? Yeah. 10 X, my Ethan 11 days. Oh, check it, check it out. Did I ever show you this one? I picked up ski mask. The slump, God Daiichi. Somehow it was available. That's pretty cool. You can pick up metadata youth.

Oh, my God, whoever has metadata Eve, they better not sell it. They can get so much from Zack. What's your take on that whole thing with Facebook now being a metaverse company? Oh, that's a great question. Um, I think it's bullish for this space in general. Uh, I kind of feel like Facebook's going to try to make some like Sims type game.

Uh, that's like a social media Sims crossover platform. Um, but yeah, I think it will be bullish for NFTs in general. I mean, there's people figuring out more about blockchain becoming more interested in their online presence, uh, will be good for the PFPs and all sorts of NFTs. Uh, but let us know what you think in the chat.

What do you think about Facebook changing their name to meta and spending dropping $10 billion, uh, building a metaverse game. You have any thoughts on that end? Yeah. Do you think Facebook's actually going to be implementing blockchain into their Meadows because they really don't have to, right. Like Facebook is already kind of considered a metaverse and so it was Fortnite and some of these other VR games, they don't necessarily need to use blockchain.

And I think that like the, the notion that the metaverse and blockchain is like very strongly intertwined, it's only really a narrative we see within the blockchain community, which I think it does make sense, but I think the normal person still doesn't really relate the metaverse and blockchain together.

I think that Facebook is trying to target the younger generation once again, that's what the duck said himself. And so I think that, uh, you know, obviously they're, they'll try to keep it as centralized as possible, but if they want to attract the crypto natives, uh, the people like us, they're going to need to let us bring our board apps and they're going to need to let us bring our NFTs over, uh, I, I definitely see both sides of the, of the coin here.

Uh, no pun intended, but I think Facebook would create their own chain if they did it and then try to have it bridged, um, with other chains. But we actually have an expert and I want to hear his take on it. So from the pastel NFT, blockchain, we have Anthony, uh, welcome to Mooner bust Anthony, how you doing today?

Doing great. How you doing? Doing well. Nice to see

our Halloween episodes a day. So excuse Ryan's appearance, but Anthony, I'm curious to hear your take on the Facebook, uh, metaphor. Yeah, totally. I mean, look, it's one of those things. I don't know, actually I was on a clip yesterday with NBC, just talking through it. Um, Ryan, you kinda made a good point there.

You know, Facebook's really been in this space of, you know, reality labs for quite some time. Um, so I do think it was kind of a penultimate moment. That's been leading up to this space. Think about obviously some of their acquisitions, some of their internal R and D as it pertains to wearables headsets, things like that.

Um, they've been making these kinds of steps for years now to get to this point in time. Um, and you know, if you really think about it, frankly, The concept of a metaverse, you know, Ryan, you alluded to it, um, away from kind of crypto natives is something that I think is kind of innate and quite native.

Generally speaking, I think about how much time we spend on our phones. Think about how much time we spend on Instagram, right. In these kinds of, you know, quasi, um, virtual realities already. So, um, I think it definitely makes a ton of sense. And one of the things that stay too is, you know, Facebook compared to a lot of the other big tech companies itself, um, doesn't necessarily have, you know, quite.

Monopolistic moat, um, or, you know, pure barrier to entry against, you know, it's underlying core product offering, right. And in the form of social media suites. So it's constantly had to innovate. It's constantly had to basically, um, you know, be a little bit more dynamic. Um, it's done that historically through a number of different acquisitions and whether through WhatsApp or a handful of other platforms.

Uh, but I think this is really kind of a natural stepping stone. Um, and it will be interesting to see, we haven't, I haven't seen anything from, um, you know, mark or Facebook directly. That's talked about how they might, you know, bridge this idea of kind of interoperability across existing blockchain suites.

Um, so it'll be exciting to see how this shakes out in the next few months. Most definitely, uh, harsher S in the chat just gave us two bucks. Thank you. Uh, we will take a look at ICP after the interview. Um, but Anthony, uh, could you tell us a little bit about pastel and what your mission. Yeah, absolutely.

Um, so pastels started back in 2018 and we've really grown to be a preeminent protocol standard for the NFT space. And you know, what I, what do I really mean by that? Um, obviously the way that you look at NFTs now and the general marketplace is I'd say the broader landscape is you have a number of different, uh, platforms and marketplaces that are geared towards different aspects, you know, ranging from digital collectibles to gamification.

Uh, then you have kind of technologies around, you know, liquidity pools. Um, you have obviously fractional ownership, sharding, et cetera, in a variety of thousands. Um, where we said is actually kind of on the flip side of that in terms of, you know, how can we actually build some of that core infrastructure to really power the NFT marketplaces and the broader entity community forward over the next several years?

And so we're actually completely, um, fully purpose-built dedicated layer, one blockchain. Um, we've been built from the ground up, um, to basically, you know, solve a lot of the Nate and Nate problems of the broader entity, you know, ecosystem, high transaction fees, network congestion, you know, downtime, et cetera, but simultaneously to also be able to offer a series of different applications, specific features, um, such as our storage as, you know, storage protocol.

Right. Uh, there's a huge problem in the NFP space, just in terms of actually how you, you know, tightly coupled the data that you're acquiring with the actual smart contract standard itself. Um, so we have a really interesting, you know, fully distributor. Fully permanent lossless storage protocol. That's built directly on top of pastel and we have another feature called sense, which is our new duplicate NFP detection protocol.

And that assesses the level of rareness and an existing NMT relative to all other NFTs and the actual data set itself. Um, so that could be used to help protect against copyrights, scam issues, things like that. Um, and so, you know, long stories. You could think about pastel as being, you know, really kind of this preeminent protocol standard, um, whether you're kind of a third-party marketplace, another layer, one blockchain, you know, whether you're you, you're basically a commercial enterprise, you can launch a marketplace directly on top of pastel, any sort of NFT DAP.

You can leverage our API APIs, you know, via lightweight integrations to basically, you know, rely on our storage to rely on our duplicate detection. Uh, we just had a couple of artists on open, see actually, uh, basically as part of their smart contract, they sent their NFTs directly to pastel to be stored, to leverage or duplicate detection.

And those NFTs are actively trading on the Ethereum blockchain, but you know, the proof of store lives on pastel. If that makes sense. Very interesting. So would you say you're more business facing or retail? Um, you know what, it's, it's a bit of both. Those are two very, very different go-to-market strategies, but, you know, we've been focused really on kind of that, um, you know, B2B strategy around going out and getting a lot of different, you know, partnerships and strategic integrations with the existing layer, one blockchains with the existing marketplaces and with a broader community.

It's super exciting to see what's happening right now. And I'd say the spaces highly collaborative, uh, just talking with different groups, talking with different, um, you know, teams and foundations and whatnot, and basically kind of just powering, you know, using our technology to help propel and power sort of aspects of the community.

It's super exciting. Uh, but you know, back to your point, there's also general network effects that, you know, come from that as well. So over time, there will be kind of more of a consumer facing strategy to, you know, our own marketplaces and our own applications. Very interesting. Uh, so could you tell us a bit about the history of the company of the project?

Um, how long have you been working on it and have you done any fundraising so far? Yeah, absolutely. So just for some quick context, I'm actually a partner in a fund called innovating capital. Um, so we're basically a venture capital technology fund. Um, I help run the crypto book there. Um, and so I met the CEO of pastel, um, Jeff Emmanuel back in 2018 out of crypto conference and basically was quickly drawn to, you know, his vision.

Right. He had a massive vision about the problems, you know, no one was even talking about. Back then. Right. But he was talking about the innate problems, the lack of actually, you know, permanent technology technology that was purpose-built running run teas, and basically had this kind of grand vision of building this from really the ground up.

So we started to incubate it almost immediately. Uh, and then over the past year or so, I've kind of stepped in on a full-time basis. Um, just helping running a lot of the day-to-day operations strategy, et cetera. And so, yeah, we've been operating in stealth, um, for the last few years, came out of stealth earlier this year, um, launched the main net.

We've been watching kind of a series of protocols, you know, since then, um, and then innovating capital, uh, plus a handful of other, you know, kind of, uh, smaller investors have put in close to about seven and a half million bucks so far total in terms of funding. Really cool. So what kind of benefits do you creators and buyers get from using pastels network over other blockchains like Ethereum and maybe smart chain or so on?

If you could touch on one of those. Yeah, totally. So, you know, if you think about it right now, right. When you go on to, you know, a Salada or an Ethereum or one of these existing platforms, right. Um, have you, I mean, basically there's a couple ways to do it. You could leverage kind of open sea or one of these existing marketplaces and, you know, they're back in, you know, smart contract deployment structure and things like that.

But at the end of the day, you're going to run into obviously the idea of having to pay an exorbitant amount of high fees. Right. Just in terms of, you know, if you saw what happened yesterday with, you know, uh, the Sheba coin and whatnot, just kind of the network congestion that we saw, um, you have pending transactions for hours, you know, you basically had, you know, certain transactions that were costing hundreds of flats and thousands of bucks just to meet the specific and uptight.

So for a creator or a collector, who's just starting to come into this space. They're not a crypto native. They don't necessarily know how to buy Ethereum on Coinbase and then set it to their Mehta mask account and then change gas fees. And then, oh, I have a pending transaction. So I have to update the known say so I can basically, you know, clear it out and get this transaction and go through.

It becomes super complicated, right? Just from a pure tech perspective. So, you know, by leveraging pastel the core advantage more than. Is that we kind of obstruct away a lot of those underlying issues because we're built specifically for an FTS, right? When you mentioned NFT on, on pastel, you're not getting in line, you're not getting in a queue of, of basically thousands of other applications that are focused on, you know, defy or, um, insurance or whatever.

Right. You don't have to necessarily compete with somebody who wants to basically lend me out 500, you know, loan 500 million bucks off of compound, right. In the form of beef and this and that. Right. So basically you get a more reliable, sustainable, um, and just kind of, you know, cheaper blockchain itself.

Right. But then you get all those specific features that I talked about when you upload an NFC on pastel, um, you know, our storage protocol, it takes that file. Whatever the data is to be a video, it could be a minimum, you know, a metaverse object, whatever it might be. It takes that file, chops it up into a bunch of little blocks, copies those blocks, and then randomly distribute those blocks across every single SuperNote on the network.

So you basically, you know, it's pay once store. So you get this also this permanent storage solution that's completely distributed, completely decentralized. And you know, right now, if you buy a smart contract or NFC on another platform, like a theory or Solano, you go to the token, you are, I feel that you might have a hyperlink to a centralized, you know, Amazon S3 bucket, right.

You might rely on some sort of IPFS pin, right? So there's a number of innate problems too, that just exist with persistent storage. And then you kind of get that level of assurance in terms of the pure rarity. Right? If I registered something on pastel, I'm going to get assigned basically this, um, authenticity score from zero to a hundred percent.

You know, we take the NFT, we leverage a handful of different, um, deep learning methodologies using advanced computer vision to take that NMT and transform it into a string of numbers for 10,000 plus digits. Right? Then we compare that digit or that vector of. Which we call the fingerprint of the NMT itself against every single other fingerprint on the system on collaborative platforms, like open seat and basically on just kind of the open web itself.

And then we assign basically a very clear score from zero to 100% that basically defines how rare something is. So if you're a creator, you have kind of the assurity that, Hey, I know I'm going to get basically, you know, almost awarded or basically, you know, um, signal that, Hey, this is super rare. I created this right.

And as a, as a collector, I might be willing to pay more or pay a premium for something that I know it's super rare versus something that's just, you know, a rip off of an existing punk or something like that. If that makes. Yeah, totally. We'll feature Logan. And I have a quick follow-up question for that before you ask your next question, but do you think Anthony, there is a way for people who will create NFTs to almost play that rarity score, like create something that looks nothing like anything else just to have a high rarity score, because there are a lot of projects that look similar, but I mean, could you speak to that maybe a little bit?

Hey Ryan, Simon, I cut out there for a second. I'm gonna repeat the question. Yeah, yeah. Sure thing. So I'm just wondering for the people who create NFTs and they see this rarity score, would it be possible for them to essentially make something with the goal of having a high rarity score? Like that looks nothing like anything else, just to be able to get that high rarity score to hopefully get more value out of buyers a hundred percent.

I definitely think so. Right. I mean, And if you're a creator, I think generally speaking, not always the objective, but I think I'm a big objective of certain creators is to build something that is highly rare. That's super rare that has never been seen before. Right. Um, you know, if it is kind of an altercation, you know, or an alteration of something else, you know, they might still get a higher revenue score.

Right. Because it is, you know, completely altered and whatnot. So, but I definitely think that, you know, many creators, um, or are willing to basically take the time to actually create something super rare. And on the, on the flip side, I think collectors are potentially, you know, willing to spend more, um, it's a pay more if there is this kind of level of rareness associated with the underlying NFT.

Interesting. Anthony. So is this time-based so say, uh, as more people create punk copies, the rarity score of the punks, the original punks won't go down, will it exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And it's actually also just, what's important to understand too, is this on the collection level? Right? So if you have 10,000.

Crypto punks, right? The way it generally works is, you know, we do the whole fingerprint vector thing. Um, and we put that fingerprint into the dataset and then the next one gets compared to the entire data set. So it is time-based based off the sequence of blocks, but one collection, you know, you're not going to compare one pump versus the other.

Right. Um, the series of, of the original X amount of punks are all going to be basically ranked a similar level of rareness, right. Just relative to that pump versus, um, any sort of data that existed at that point in time. Very cool. And so you mentioned that the, uh, the data storage and the blockchain is completely decentralized and distributed.

Uh, could you talk to the level of that maybe how many nodes you have or if you use other products to decentralize your data storage? Yeah, I mean, look, so right now, the way that it works is you have general nodes that are running on the network, um, that basically obviously run copies of the ledger themselves and whatnot.

There's about 2000 plus nodes around the world. Um, I think I should probably more right now. Then you basically have the supernodes, which are doing all the same thing, but then also providing for a lot of this extra functionality, right? So you stink 5 million PSL. You run a supernode yearning kind of a high powered client that has both a specific amount of compute and storage capabilities.

And there's a hundred plus supernodes running around the world. Um, right now, you know, between the U S Asia, Europe, et cetera. That's really impressive. You know, again, the whole, the whole idea is to always be, you know, if, if any blockchain besides Bitcoin or Ethereum tells you they're fully decentralized today, um, I would definitely kind of shy away from that, but the general idea is, Hey, are we putting every single piece in place that pushes us on this path of, of sufficient decentralization, right.

And has everything equipped right now. Right. You know, Logan, you decide, you want to basically go acquire 5 million PSL and run a supernode. You can nothing's stopping you. You can go do that tomorrow, right? Um, yeah. You know, and there's also a lot of other kind of core functionalities to consistent storage challenges, right?

Where basically random supernodes are, you know, looking at random supernodes and kind of almost inspecting what they're doing. Hey, is this SuperNote doing what it's supposed to be doing? Or is it acting maliciously on work? And if it is, we basically have this like reputation scoring that, you know, tracks.

And if you get X amount of times where you're doing something religiously, you're kicked off the network where your IP is banned. Um, so kind of having these, you know, fully decentralized functions are really important just in terms of, you know, getting on that path of, you know, pure, sufficient decentralization.

That's a great answer. And we do have a question in the chat from Jonathan he's asking. So could there be a sacrifice on the art standard for the rareness score? That was kind of what I was getting at earlier. I guess art's really subjective. So I would say maybe the market would just decide that itself.

Uh, Anthony. Yeah. I mean, look, it's, it's one of those things where you could use this tool. So certain companies are using this for certain, you know, different things. Right. So for example, if you're concerned that someone's just completely copying your punk, right. And you know that if someone completely rips it off, it's going to have, you know, kind of a, a score of 1%, right?

Why would a monitor anything that's less than 5% and flag it basically maybe expect, inspect it a little bit more, you know, how similar is this to something else? And so I can actually go look and say, Hey, you know what, here's the output of the code. It's telling me that it's, you know, almost identical to this.

I go look at that file, et cetera. So you can leverage it in different ways to be more kind of like an audit function where I'm not necessarily just looking at something for the sake of. Paying more for, you know, something that's 95% rare. Right. You could also on the flip side, have a relatively, you know, kind of reasonable threshold, anything that's greater than 75% is going to get this, you know, super rare, you know, certification.

Right. But I, I totally get it. Right. Art is very subjective. This is just more of an additional tool or functionality that can be leveraged in a variety of different ways. Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. Interesting. Oh, there he goes. Can you hear us? Yeah. Can you, okay. Awesome. Yep. Sounds good. So, Anthony, can you tell us a little about the PSL token again?

Yeah, absolutely. So the PSL tokens really kind of, you know, the, the oil that runs the entire network, right? Whether that's mincing an NFT, whether that's trading an on a T, whether that's basically paying to use cascade to basically store your, your, um, NFT. Sense to basically run your new duplicate detection service on the NFT itself.

Right? So PSL is really kind of that oil that is needed for every single aspect of the system. Um, so anytime a transaction occurs, there's really a couple of things that take place. You know, one part of that transaction fee is actually distributed to the supernode operators on the network. And then to, um, part of that transaction fee is burnt.

It's sensible, approvable burn address it's taken out of supply. So we have both a kind of, you know, dividend yield component of terms of distributing PSL to the supernode operators on the network and exchange for the services they're providing. And then you kind of have this, you know, kind of quasi share buyback model by taking, uh, you know, the PSL out of supply.

Right. And that's kind of a deflationary mechanic, if that makes sense. So is that mechanic used for all transfers of the token or is only for sales of NFTs, kind of like how open see has that 2.5 or is it 5% royalty fee on, on their end if. Right. And our right. So a couple of things there, right? So on open CFI, if I bind NFT and I, when I sell it, et cetera, open seat is going to take a clip.

Right? This is what I'm seeing is something a little bit different. Um, in terms of, you know, you artists could still say, Hey, I want to collect the 10% royalty. On the NFTE, any time of retreads. But if you think back to how I mentioned, we're structured, where we have a series of different API APIs, right.

Open. So you could decide they want to send all their entities to pastel for storage. They're going to pay basically in the form of PSL, anytime they want a mint, an entity to call that specific protocol. Right. And so that PSL part of that sense of the SuperNet operators who are doing that functionality and then part of that's burnt, if that makes sense.

Okay. That's really cool. That's it? That's a great solution. And why did you choose to fork from Z cash and remain as a proof of work blockchain with so many like new, newer blockchains being proof of stake? I thought that was an interesting choice. I mean, look, you know, the, the, the pure consensus mechanism starting off as kind of a fork of Z cash at the end of the day, right?

The, it what's the most secure rock, solid foundation in the space. Right. Uh, Bitcoin, you know, we know that from the. Zika being effectively a fork of Bitcoin, but leveraging Equihash, which we thought was a little bit more secure, um, as well as, you know, zero knowledge proofs. Um, we thought that it was actually the best candidate in terms of how to actually start the initial core blockchain itself.

But what's important is this kind of layer of supernodes that sit on top that, you know, actually do a lot of the services, the validation, registration, the activation, all that stuff, you know, the storage, right. Um, that actually then, you know, have almost kind of a somewhat interesting stick component associated with them, gives us this interesting kind of split model, if that makes sense.

Um, and so, you know, from our standpoint, you know, it's super exciting to see what's happening with a lot of the proof of stake blockchains out there. I think that they're better suited, um, for maybe networks that require super high TPS or kind of you networked philosophy. I'm not going to lie to you and say, Hey, we're trying to be the fastest blockchain that exists.

We're not right. Nor do we need to be. That's not necessarily the use case of NFC transactions. Right. You know, do you care if it's going to take you 0.01 second or one second, per se? I don't know. Probably not. Right. You know, if you're paying less, if you're getting all this core functionality associated with it, but it also doesn't have to be because we're not necessarily dealing with, you know, high velocity, high volume financial transactions.

And so for us, we can basically offset some of the, you know, maybe latency associated with proof of work, but get that reliability, get that security and get that kind of rock solid core foundation. Okay. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. You have some really good points there. And also like a theory wants to do a million different things all across the world, right?

So they really do need to focus on scalability. They need to actually have, you know, 10,000 transactions per second in the future, hopefully with ease too. Whereas you guys, you know, needs a certain amount of scalability, but it certainly doesn't have to be to that degree where proof of stake is necessary.

A hundred percent. So my next question, Anthony is actually about the decentralized apps on pastels network. Could you explain, are these smart contract apps, are these marketplaces that they make through your, your user interface on your website? How does that work? Yeah, no, it's a great question. So they're, they're kind of, they mirror the idea of kind of smart contracts.

So instead of using basically a smart contract standard, we've built our own kind of smart ticket standard. These are super agile, flexible tickets. So take it forward, you know, create NFC ticket for, you know, create collection, right, this and that and whatnot. And we had found this ticket systems, uh, you know, basically be better suited for, um, the way our blockchain is actually built.

Um, so we actually, you know, there's something in Bitcoin transactions called UTX. That was right at the end, the unspent transaction outputs. We can actually leverage something called pay to fake multisig to actually send data via the UTX. So model, right. Uh, and you know, by leveraging Peterrific multisig and kind of our, you know, agile ticket structure, we've created this very interesting, unique approach, um, to basically enabling platforms, to just launch applications, that lodge kind of marketplaces directly on top of us.

Um, and so that's at the core blockchain level, right. But, you know, what's really interesting is the, the actual protocols, the API APIs, et cetera, that interact via RPC directly with the underlying blockchain. So, you know, by plugging in a handful of our API APIs, you can launch anything on top of that stealth and it's going to do all that stuff for you in the backend.

And it's as easy as basically, Hey, you know, send an NFT here, right. And, you know, have it, do all this stuff and then send me back the result. Okay. Hmm. Very cool. Anthony, uh, someone out there in the chat is trying to follow you on Twitter. They say, uh, that it's not working. If you want to, you know, what your Twitter is putting my, uh, yeah.

I just updated that telegram handle. And we do have another question in the chat saying, you know, speed matters. If you're in a competitive NFT mint, is there something else that your network has to really, you know, do something like that with eating on how you can bid, uh, for the, your place? Uh, yeah, I guess if you could speak to that a little bit.

Yeah. In a competitive NFT men, as it pertains to like yeah. Scores, right? Like, like if you're trying to mend something really fast one, right. When it drops and then there's competitive pricing there. Right, right. No, so some of that stuff, right. It's the speed itself. Is something that, you know, you can basically be performing all these functions in your block.

Right. Um, but you know, do you basically, uh, I think there's a little bit of a, kind of a unique differentiator here, right? Because you have kind of that finality of transactions, but you also have kind of the actual, you know, blocks, you know, time per block, per se, and what can actually happen within each block itself.

So, you know, it is actually tracking, um, everything actually to the core, you know, millisecond terms of, you know, Hey, I actually want to place this bit, I want to do this. I want to, um, have the competitive men, et cetera. I was more kind of referencing the point of, Hey, if we're getting to the point of kind of ultra high-frequency where, you know, basically we want to office get the risk of, you know, front running a $2 billion kind of, you know, um, trade and we need to leverage some sort of dark pool.

Right. Uh, you know, pastel is not necessarily that platform. Right. But we're not trying to get to the point where we have 10,000 transactions per second, um, that are just happening on the network at all points. Yeah, NFTs, you know, speed is not an issue whatsoever on pastel. Thanks for clearing that up. So you guys have been operating in stealth mode for basically your whole existence, but now you are out in the public.

What do we have to look forward to from pesto?

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, so what's the super exciting what's going on over time down the road, we basically have, you know, a handful of different partnerships of, uh, developments in the works, right? In terms of, you know, whether that's layer one marketplaces, whether that's layer two or layer one blockchains layer, two marketplaces, existing commercial enterprises that are building, launching, deploying themselves directly on top of pastel.

Um, I'd be excited to basically, you know, I'm super excited to, uh, start to announce those and kind of see that happen over the next couple of months. Um, and then we have significant updates in terms of our actual core technology that we're actually building upgrades to our protocols, upgrades, to certain mechanisms, you know, within pastel itself and then the full fledged release and launch of our on-market.

Awesome. Make sure you guys go check out pastel and Anthony on Twitter, connected them to stay up to date. Uh, we appreciate you coming on Anthony. Really great conversation. Hope to have you back again in the future. Awesome. Sounds good. I, thanks guys. Have a good one. Thank you. See ya. All right. So we are just about out of time, but we, uh, um, circling back to ICP, I say a, it could be a really big, really successful project, uh, but check out their vesting schedule.

Uh, so you don't get rubbed by the developers, um, selling off all of their initial shares. That's what happened earlier this year. So maybe it's over, maybe not definitely a promising, but high risk, I'd say. Um, but yeah, yeah. I'll give you my super short take on that too. I was pretty hype when it release, I looked through their docs and whatnot.

It seems super promising. They have a really impressive and really large team behind the coin. Um, but like Logan said, a lot of those coins were vested. They got them for like $2 back, like four or five years ago. At this point it's been in development for a really long time. And a lot of those people probably did.

Profits once it went public. Uh, so that's what they did. Right. And that pushed on the price a lot. And now it's right around 40 to $50 and it hasn't been performing too well. I still think it is a solid project, but it'll be interesting to see where the price goes and how much, you know, these private investors still own.

And like, if they could actually keep pushing this price down or, you know, our retail traders really going to be so hyped to keep buying this up and, you know, drive the price back up to close to a thousand dollars like it was at earlier this year, which I'm not too sure about, but I still think it's a solid $2,800.

Look at this. Sheesh. Yeah. That must've been right when they launched it. Yeah, that is insane. And it's just been, I mean, this looks like a rug, but they have a lot of good, a lot of good stuff going on on their, on their website if it's to be believed. So, um, Definitely some potential. Thanks for the two bucks.

All right, Ryan, that is all we have time for today. Uh, so everyone out there hope you have a great weekend, have a happy Halloween and make sure to stay safe. Crypto markets, this hot it's dangerous. It's dangerous out there. Did you know, nearly all stock price changes of 10% or more result from a single news headline.

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Meet The Hosts:

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Bought sub $90 ETH during the bear market | Liquidated on ByBit | Was into DeFi before it was cool | Ran ASIC mining operation in 2016 (sorry planet Earth) | $UNI Bag Holder

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Meet The Hosts:

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https://twitter.com/logannross

Ryan McNamara

Bought sub $90 ETH during the bear market | Liquidated on ByBit | Was into DeFi before it was cool | Ran ASIC mining operation in 2016 (sorry planet Earth) | $UNI Bag Holder

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Blockchain Analyst @ Benzinga | President @ Wolverine Blockchain | Crypto investor and educator since 2016

https://twitter.com/logannross

Ryan McNamara

Bought sub $90 ETH during the bear market | Liquidated on ByBit | Was into DeFi before it was cool | Ran ASIC mining operation in 2016 (sorry planet Earth) | $UNI Bag Holder

https://twitter.com/ryan15mcnamara

Disclaimer: All of the information, material, and/or content contained in this program is for informational purposes only. Investing in stocks, options, and futures is risky and not suitable for all investors. Please consult your own independent financial adviser before making any investment decisions.

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Subscribe to our Benzinga Crypto Youtube Channel Episode Summary:

• Market Analysis
• Videocoin interview feat. Halsey
• Floki Inu Giveaway
• Moon or Bust - To Play Moon or Bust go to https://www.benzinga.com/markets/cryptocurrency

Meet The Hosts:

Brian Moir

Solidity and React Developer | Blockchain Enthusiast | Decentralized Internet Advocate | Crypto investor since 2012

https://twitter.com/moirbrian

Logan Ross

Blockchain Analyst @ Benzinga | President @ Wolverine Blockchain | Crypto investor and educator since 2016

https://twitter.com/logannross

Ryan McNamara

Bought sub $90 ETH during the bear market | Liquidated on ByBit | Was into DeFi before it was cool | Ran ASIC mining operation in 2016 (sorry planet Earth) | $UNI Bag Holder

https://twitter.com/ryan15mcnamara

Disclaimer: All of the information, material, and/or content contained in this program is for informational purposes only. Investing in stocks, options, and futures is risky and not suitable for all investors. Please consult your own independent financial adviser before making any investment decisions.

• Check Out Other Benzinga Podcasts Here:
• Check Out All Benzinga Crypto News Here
• Get Moon or Bust Crypto Merch Here
• Join the Telegram: https://t.me/moonorbustBZ for 25% of Moon or Bust Podcast swag.
• Claim 1000 ZING airdrop: https://www.benzinga.com/zing

Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/moon-or-bust/donations

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy