Mormon History Podcast – Gospel Tangents – Mormon History Podcast

Sandra Tanner discusses one of the most intriguing episodes in Mormon history: her early inquiry into the missing 1832 First Vision account. (She didn’t know it was missing at the time. The account was allegedly ripped out of the Joseph Smith journal by Church Historian Joseph Fielding Smith. This pursuit led Sandra directly into correspondence with Joseph Fielding Smith, then Church Historian, concerning what she believed was the original, definitive record of Joseph Smith’s earliest spiritual experience.

Don’t miss our other conversations with Sandra: https://gospeltangents.com/people/sandra-tanner

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0:00 Tanner’s Secret Polygamy

Sandra Tanner’s journey into questioning Mormon orthodoxy was significantly shaped by her mother, who was already deep into researching early Mormonism in the late 1950s. Sandra’s mother insisted on finding chapter and verse for religious claims, refusing to simply take the word of “the brethren” or rely solely on church manuals, often disrupting Sunday school classes with her inquisitive mind.

Sandra’s first met Jerald Tanner in the 1950s. He introduced her to David Whitmer’s thinking and the ideas of Pauline Hancock’s group, the Church of Christ-Bible & Book of Mormon). This set the stage for intense study.

A major focal point of this research was the nature of God and how the changing views of God affected the narrative of the First Vision. Sandra noted that the Book of Mormon, in its earliest form, presented a view of God that did not align with the current Mormon understanding of a separate Father and Son.

As Sandra, Jerald, and her mother poured over available documents, they focused on inconsistencies surrounding the First Vision:

Sandra and her associates reasoned that if the First Vision story was constantly evolving, they needed to see the genesis of the account.

In the early 1960s (circa 1961), Sandra, Jerald, and her mother formulated a letter outlining these historical questions to be sent to then-Church Historian, Joseph Fielding Smith. Sandra simply assumed that an initial written account must exist and requested a photocopy of the “original Joseph Smith handwritten account of the First Vision”.

Little did Sandra know that some people, like her friend Lamar Peterson, did know about a “strange account” (the 1832 version) that had been shown to him by Levi Edgar Young, who was sworn to secrecy by Joseph Fielding Smith.

Sandra’s request, though based on assumption, might have caused immediate alarm in the Church Historian’s Office. Sandra speculates that Joseph Fielding Smith had previously cut the 1832 account out of the ledger book because he realized it was problematic. When Smith received Sandra’s letter, he may have assumed she possessed insider knowledge. To get ahead of any arguments about hiding evidence, Smith subsequently taped the pages back into the ledger book.

“I think he cut it out back in the time of Levi Edgar Young. I mean, this is my assumption that at that time he cut it out because he realized it was problematic and he didn’t want anyone else coming across this.”

Joseph Fielding Smith did not send Sandra the document she requested. Instead, he wrote back to her bishop (Bishop Warren Kennedy). When the bishop read the response to Sandra, the letter was highly critical, asserting that if the “young woman would stop listening to the enemies of the church and seek for a testimony instead, she wouldn’t have these kind of questions“. Smith went on to call Sandra out for her “apostate spirit”.

Crucially, Smith ended the letter with a curious line: ” if I showed her such a thing would that even convince her”.

Sandra realized later that this specific wording was used because Smith knew that the 1832 account—which primarily details Christ appearing to Joseph (not the Father and Son)—would not convince her to return to the mainstream narrative but would actually reinforce her argument about the shifting view of God.

The controversy over the 1832 account, however, did eventually enter official channels. Joseph Fielding Smith utilized Paul Cheesman’s BYU thesis in 1965 as the official mode for publication, allowing the church to place the account on the record and refute arguments that they were hiding history.

What do you think of Sandra’s recounting?

Don’t miss our other conversations with Sandra: https://gospeltangents.com/people/sandra-tanner

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Will there be murderers in Celestial Kingdom? An Institute Teacher’s answer challenged Sandra Tanner’s faith back in the 1950s. We’ll talk about this unusual case and how it contributed to Sandra joining Pauline Hancock’s Basement Church (known as Church of Christ) in Independence Missouri. Check out our conversation…

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The history of early Mormonism and its subsequent splinter groups is complex, but few journeys into critical thinking are as personal and profound as that of Sandra Tanner. Raised defending the faith, her path to becoming a leading critic of Mormonism was catalyzed by several unexpected influences, including the work of a pioneering female Restoration leader and the startling discovery of historical documents.

Sandra Tanner’s husband, Jerald Tanner, was deeply influenced by an obscure Restoration group led by Pauline Hancock. Pauline was a head of her group, called the Church of Christ (Bible Book of Mormon), serving as its minister and preacher. Though she never claimed to be a prophet, she was considered a “deliverer of the message”.

Crucially, Pauline did claim to have a vision of Christ before the group started meeting as a church. This vision occurred during a transition when she was trying to sort out what she believed, focusing on the “original kernel of Mormonism”. She told Christ she couldn’t fulfill the calling to tell the world what she had learned because she was a woman, but Christ responded, “I was a man, and they didn’t listen to me. So, it doesn’t matter that you’re a woman. You are called to go out and tell what you’ve learned”.

Pauline’s group focused on studying the Book of Mormon outside of various splinter groups. Their theology centered on the “oneness idea of God,” a modalistic model (though they would not have used the term “modalism”). They aimed for a rejuvenation of the David Whitmer flavor of Mormonism, seeking to go “back to original Mormonism” using just the Bible and Book of Mormon.

Jerald Tanner became converted to Pauline’s message after two visits to Missouri. At age 20 (around 1957 or 1958), Jerald returned to Salt Lake and began holding little cottage meetings at his parents’ house. He would play reel-to-reel tapes of Pauline’s different sermons or teachings. The purpose of these meetings was to discuss early Mormonism and explain where the Church “went off the track”.

Sandra’s grandmother, a relative by marriage to the Brigham Young family, received an invitation to one of these meetings via a postcard. Sandra, visiting from Southern California during spring break, drove her grandmother to the meeting. Grandmother claimed it was “sort of like a Mormon fireside”. Jerald, whom she found “nice looking” and “cute,” impressed her with his studies on Mormonism’s problems and the group’s focus on returning to the Book of Mormon.

Sandra’s journey of doubt had already been seeded by others.

First, her mother and aunt began studying Mormon history in the 1950s after reading Fawn Brodie’s book, No Man Knows My History. They were pouring over “apostate literature” and photocopies. Sandra, then in high school, was busy defending the faith, while her mother and aunt were “going into apostasy”. Sandra noted that her mother became known as being “too inquisitive” in Sunday school classes, often disrupting the class with questions.

Sandra’s mother and aunt found James Wardle’s barbershop, possibly through Sam Weller’s bookstore (which stocked anti-Mormon and polygamy literature). James Wardle was the link that put Sandra’s mother in contact with Pauline Hancock’s group.

Second, Sandra recounts her first challenge in Mormonism occurring in 8th grade when a Christian girl questioned her about what Mormons believed about God. Sandra proudly quoted the popular saying from the 1950s: ” as man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.” The girl called this “blasphemy” and walked away, leaving Sandra stunned.

Third, while attending the Institute of Religion in Southern California in the late 1950s, Sandra was troubled by a conversation with her Institute teacher about an acquaintence convicted of murder. The teacher said that the person could never be baptized, receive the temple ordinances (endowments/sealings,) or reach the celestial kingdom. This answer shocked Sandra, who questioned how this system fit the “gospel of Jesus” if the “good news” meant, “Unfortunately, you don’t qualify”. (It is noted that current 2025 church policy allows a person convicted of murder to be baptized and go to the temple after completing their sentence, with First Presidency approval, but the practical difficulties for a prisoner remained. If he was on death row, he would never qualify.) It is unknown what official Church policy was in 1958.

After meeting Jerald, their courtship centered on studying Mormon history. Sandra, who was raised to practically worship Brigham Young, told Jerald she was a “great-great-granddaughter of Brigham Young”. Jerald challenged her to read his sermons.

Jerald brought copies of sermons addressing Adam-God theology, polygamy, and the Civil War. But the ultimate “real deal breaker” for Sandra was reading the blood atonement sermons. Specifically, she was horrified by the passage where Brigham Young discusses finding his brother in bed with his wife:

“I would immediately put a javelin through them both and this would save them… I would be justified and… this is loving your neighbor as yourself.”

This teaching, which claimed there were “certain sins you could commit [that] the blood of Christ won’t cover,” was entirely opposite to the benign image she had of Brigham Young. Sandra immediately rejected Brigham Young out of hand: “God did not tell Brigham Young to teach this sermon. This cannot be from God… That guy’s toast.”

After that moment, Sandra was ready to read anything Jerald had. She purchased a copy of the 1833 Book of Commandments and compared it against the current Doctrine and Covenants, confirming David Whitmer’s claim that Joseph Smith had changed revelations.

Despite her own mother’s severe worries that Sandra was being “sucked in” to a “fanatic cult group” in Missouri (even though her mother acknowledged church problems, she would not leave the role of a Mormon), Sandra and Jerald had a whirlwind romance and were married by a Protestant minister. Their partnership in critiquing Mormon history had begun.

Don’t miss our other conversations with Sandra: https://gospeltangents.com/people/sandra-tanner

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Before Stassi Cramm became the first woman to lead the Community of Christ, Pauline Hancock led the Church of Christ. Sandra Tanner was baptized in about 1960 into Pauline Hancock’s Church of Christ. We’ll discuss Pauline’s church, Sandra’s conversion and de-conversion, and more in this amazing conversation. Check it out!

Don’t miss our other conversations with Sandra: https://gospeltangents.com/people/sandra-tanner

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0:00 Updating Sandra Tanner

Sandra Tanner is well-known today as a staunch critic and historian of Mormonism, chronicled recently in the biography Lighthouse: Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Despised and Beloved Mormon Critics of Mormonism. While Sandra is now enjoying life in a condominium in Sandy, Utah, having retired from the stresses of her old neighborhood in Salt Lake City, her journey as a critic began in the late 1950s alongside her husband, Jerald Tanner56.

This period of questioning led the newlywed Tanners to explore various splinter groups, resulting in Sandra becoming a temporary convert to a unique movement led by one of the earliest known female leaders in the Restoration: Pauline Hancock’s Church of Christ.

Before diving into her early faith experience, Sandra is careful to distinguish her identity. She notes that she is comfortable being labeled a “Mormon critic,” but strongly rejects the term “anti-Mormon.” This is because the “anti-Mormon” label often implies an animosity toward the people, which she does not feel. She condemns any violence against Mormon people. She sees herself as a critic of Mormonism—its doctrines and history—not its followers.

The Tanners’ joint investigation into Mormonism began around 1959. Jerald’s personal crisis was spurred around age 18 when his bishop suggested he go on a mission. Jerald began reading critical works, notably Fawn Brodie’s book (written in 1945), which was the standard critical source at the time.

His investigation led him to seek out local splinter groups, first visiting the Reorganized Church in Salt Lake City. There, he met a barber named James Wardle, who operated a shop that housed one of the largest collections of historic books on early Mormonism. Wardle provided Jerald with a key text that shaped his direction: David Whitmer’s pamphlet, An Address to All Believers in Christ (1887).

Whitmer’s position was that the Book of Mormon was the main thing and that Joseph Smith “got a big head, invented all this other stuff.” This idea became Jerald’s litmus test: if there was any truth to Mormonism, it had to be at the start, centered on the Book of Mormon. Jerald even took a trip to Independence, Missouri, to verify Whitmer’s claims that the revelations had been changed, specifically noting discrepancies between the current version of the Doctrine and Covenants and the early Book of Commandments.

James Wardle also informed Jerald about Pauline Hancock’s small Church of Christ group, noting that they aligned more closely with David Whitmer’s views than other splinter groups.

Pauline Hancock was raised in the Reorganized (RLDS) Church, where her father had served as a pastor in Salt Lake City. She became disillusioned with both the RLDS and the Temple Lot Church. She, her husband, and others who went through similar struggles were deeply impacted by Whitmer’s pamphlet.

This group, sometimes referred to as “the Luke-ites” because they first met in the home of a Mr. Luke, established their own theological foundation:

Jerald visited Pauline’s small group in Independence multiple times in the mid-1950s, staying for weeks at a time. He was deeply influenced by Pauline’s message that “all you really need is Jesus” and that they should scrap the institutional “stuff.” Jerald found a new personal relationship with Christ through reading the Bible and the Book of Mormon, moving away from institutional religion.

While Pauline’s church eventually folded, she was highly influential. The sources note that while she never claimed the title of prophet for her movement, she did claim to have had a vision of Christ before the group formally started meeting as a church.

Don’t miss our other conversations with Sandra: https://gospeltangents.com/people/sandra-tanner

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This is a throwback episode from 2018. Sandra & Jerald Tanner were the first to identify a Hofmann forgery. They were the first to claim the Salamander Letter was a forgery but they didn’t know it was a Hofmann forgery. Even though they didn’t suspect Mark Hofmann was the forger, they were eventually proved correct. Sandra tells how her husband Jerald came to that conclusion, his later illness & death from dementia, and whether she thinks some books in the Bible could be classified as forgeries. Plus at the end of the video, I’ll give a preview of my next interview with Sandra! Check out our conversation…

Don’t miss our other conversations with Sandra: https://gospeltangents.com/people/sandra-tanner

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Sandra Tanner is a long-time critic and historian of Mormonism. She details her interactions with the notorious document forger and murderer, Mark Hofmann. The interviews reveal a profound paradox—what Sandra Tanner called the “man bite dog story”—where the very critics who might have benefited from anti-LDS documents were the ones who first proved them to be frauds.

Here is a breakdown of the shocking discoveries, clever manipulations, and institutional controversies surrounding Hofmann, as shared by Sandra Tanner:

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Mark Hofmann first approached Sandra Tanner and her husband, Jerald, in 1978 or 1979 after having read their book, Mormonism Shadow or Reality. At this time, Hofmann was an average-looking young man who did not stand out, which actually aided him in his forgery business.

Hofmann’s initial goal was to establish credibility for his future fakes. He visited the Tanners and handed Sandra a photocopy of a one-sheet document—a fraudulent Second Anointing Ceremony. This ritual is considered higher than celestial marriage and promises eternal life (short of murder) to select individuals.

Hofmann spun a detailed, manipulative story, claiming he found the document (purporting to be from the 1912 Salt Lake Temple period) while cleaning out his deceased grandfather’s attic. He insisted he couldn’t share his name because his family was prominent, thus giving the document an air of mystery and protected provenance.

Sandra Tanner realized that Hofmann was attempting to raise the document’s value by having her pass it around, creating a “trail of interest”. However, because the document lacked provenance, Sandra did not publish it, though she did give copies out to people who asked, cautioning them that she could not vouch for it. This established Hofmann’s pattern: planting evidence or information about documents, often having others “find” them (like Jeff Simmonds finding the Anthon transcript pasted in a Bible) to lend them credibility.

When the Salamander Letter (a document critical of Joseph Smith, linking him to magic and the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in a magic setting) was rumored and surfaced, Jerald Tanner was skeptical. Jerald insisted on seeing the whole typescript of the letter to properly evaluate it.

Jerald’s forensic methodology was based on a prior experience: years earlier, he had successfully argued that a document attributed to Oliver Cowdery was a forgery because it contained phrases lifted directly from Cowdery’s known letters, demonstrating a contrived writing style.

Applying this content analysis to the Salamander Letter, Jerald became convinced it was a fraud. He noted that the wording contained phrases lifted from earlier critical texts, specifically Ed Howe’s Mormonism Unveiled and the Joseph Knight letters. Jerald argued that the similarities in phrasing were “too much” and “too pat”.

Sandra, playing “devil’s advocate,” suggested that the repetitive phrasing could simply be Martin Harris’s standard way of telling his story. But Jerald was “absolutely convinced” that the Salamander Letter was “a product of someone studying Martin Harris”.

Jerald published a pamphlet challenging the letter’s wording, risking defamation lawsuits. He was willing to risk everything because he knew the document was forged. This happened despite the fact that Church historians, including Dean Jessee, had accepted the document as authentic after Hofmann supplied them with fake Martin Harris handwriting samples to verify the signature.

Hofmann’s success in fooling the Church historians was compounded by two factors:

After Jerald published his concerns, Hofmann appeared at the Tanners’ store, accusing them of trying to hurt his business and stop him from acquiring crucial historical documents.

Hofmann tried to halt Jerald’s criticism by appealing to Sandra’s interest in Brigham Young’s commingled funds. Hofmann claimed he was in touch with a descendant of Thomas Bullock (Brigham Young’s secretary) who possessed the “Bullock collection,” which supposedly detailed Young’s misuse of Church money. Hofmann argued that if the Tanners continued challenging his work, the Bullock family would refuse to do business with him, and Sandra would “be the one that stops this acquiring of these important collection of Thomas Bullock”.

Jerald, upon hearing the story, was completely cynical and dismissed it as a lie: “I want to sell you a bridge in Brooklyn,” he responded.

Regarding the outcome of the Hofmann case, Sandra was disappointed that the prosecutors negotiated a plea bargain instead of taking the case to a full trial. She believes the prosecuting attorney, being a “good Mormon,” would have been reluctant to subpoena General Authorities (like Gordon B. Hinckley, who had personally done business with Hofmann) and reveal confidential Church finances in court—issues that would have arisen if they attempted to prove the financial motive behind the murder. Ultimately, the prosecution secured a settlement where Hofmann confessed to everything in exchange for a 15 years to life sentence (which became a life sentence when he attempted to hire a hitman to kill the parole board).

Don’t miss our other conversations with Sandra: https://gospeltangents.com/people/sandra-tanner

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You can get a Kindle or paperback transcript here: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1718038240

If you’re interested in winning a biography of Sandra and Jerald, I’m giving away an autographed copy. Sign up at https://gospeltangents.com/contest and you could win!

A presentation titled Pregnant Possibilities was given by Mark Tensmeyer, Joseph Stanford, Amanda Hendrix-Komoto, John Kidd, & myself (Rick Bennett.) This was similar to a presentation at Sunstone & John Whitmer Historical Association in August, September, & October 2025. We tackled the question on how many children Joseph Smith should have had with his plural wives. (It is a lot less than you think!) Mark gave a history, Joseph outlined the science behind calculating pregnancy, Rick did the calculations on expected number of children & probability Joseph Smith had no children from his plural wives. John ran 1,000,000 simulations of the scenario to randomize women’s cycles and coitus, and Amanda discussed birth control & abortion in the 19th century. It’s a fascinating presentation that we hope to publish soon. Check out our presentation from August & October. (You may want to view on Youtube to see the slides used in the presentations.)

Don’t miss our other conversations about Joseph Smith’s polygamy: https://gospeltangents.com/lds_theology/polygamy/

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The polygamous unions of Joseph Smith in Nauvoo present historians with a persistent and colorful mystery: the apparent lack of known children fathered by Smith with any of his wives other than Emma. Clearly, Joseph Smith was fertile, having fathered nine children with Emma. This question regarding the lack of progeny was the central focus of the 2025 Sunstone Symposium session, “Pregnant Possibilities: Sexuality and Early Mormon Polygamy,” which involved a multidisciplinary approach combining historical research, statistical modeling, and reproductive science.

The presentation drew on the expertise of historian Mark Tensmeyer, JD (focusing on historical claims and Joseph Smith’s movements), Dr. Amanda Hendrix-Komoto (discussing abortion and birth control history), Dr. Joseph Stanford (an MD specializing in fertility and the mechanics of pregnancy), Rick Bennett (a biostatistician who hosted the session and developed the mathematical models), and Dr John Kidd (who ran 1,000,000 simulations.)

The puzzle of the missing children was vividly encapsulated by Joseph Smith III, who found it “incomprehensible” that his “father should have had such a crew of lusty young women as wives, and not one of them had a baby by him. Not one, not a single baby”.

The presentation emphasized that while there are no identified or verified children from these plural unions, historians cannot definitively state that there were no children. Factors such as high infant mortality, stillbirth, or children who grew up under different names could account for unknown progeny.

Mark Tensmeyer examined the foundational question: Does the fact that Joseph Smith married these women mean that he was sexually active with them?. While there is direct testimony of consummation for some wives (such as Emily Partridge and Melissa Lott), for the majority, evidence is absent or scarce.

Arguments supporting consummation included the 19th-century societal norm where a marriage was often not considered complete if unconsummated. Conversely, arguments suggesting limited or no consummation centered on:

To address the historical ambiguity, the researchers focused on 33 “consensus wives”—those agreed upon by prominent historians—and developed various models based on different assumptions regarding sexual frequency.

The statistical analysis required defining key reproductive terms. Fecundity refers to the biological capacity to conceive, while fecundability is the daily probability of pregnancy in a given menstrual cycle.

Dr. Stanford explained that calculating the probability of conception is complex, as the probability is highest in the couple of days prior to ovulation. The models used data from historical natural family planning users to estimate the day-specific probabilities of pregnancy, applying these estimates across the various historical interpretations of Joseph Smith’s sexual activity.

Biostatistician Rick Bennett developed four main models based on the estimated frequency of intercourse, accounting for Joseph Smith’s busy schedule, travel, and ongoing sexual relationship with Emma1:

The conclusions were stark: the Restricted, Low, and Consensus models show that the probability of zero pregnancies is not unusual. The High-Volume model suggests that if intercourse occurred that frequently, zero children would be “very unlikely to happen by chance,” necessitating an explanation through contraception or abortion.

A separate, high-volume model focusing on Fanny Alger alone (due to the length and nature of the relationship) suggested an expected 3.25 children, with a probability of zero children at about 0.03%, meaning it would be unlikely that Fanny should not have had a child in that model.

Historian Amanda Hendrix-Komoto provided context on 19th-century sexuality, noting that non-academic conversations often overlook the long history of birth control and abortion. She highlighted that before the 20th century, people defined pregnancy differently:

There is limited direct evidence of early Mormon practices due to the secrecy surrounding polygamy. However, Heber C. Kimball, in an 1857 speech, acknowledged that he knew many women who used doctors to “kill the children,” stating that this practice was “just as common as it is for wheat to grow”. Furthermore, Brigham Young explicitly linked the spirit entering the body to the mother “feels life come into her infant” (quickening).

These findings suggest that early Mormon women would have encountered ideas about abortion and birth control before converting to the Church. Importantly, women possessed agency; they did not need external figures like Dr. J.C. Bennett to control their reproduction, as midwives and other doctors knew how to induce abortions.

In summary, the statistical data supports the conclusion that the lack of identified children is statistically expected if Joseph Smith’s sexual engagement with his plural wives was limited. However, if relations were more frequent, the historical context confirms that 19th-century women had the knowledge and means to utilize contraception or early abortifacients to prevent births.

Don’t miss our discussion of Dr Ugo Perego’s DNA test results on possible children of Joseph Smith.

What are your thoughts about the presentation?

Don’t miss our other conversations about Joseph Smith’s polygamy: https://gospeltangents.com/lds_theology/polygamy/

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Today is Peggy Fletcher Stack’s 40th wedding anniversary. A few months ago, I asked Peggy Fletcher Stack’s opinions. Central to Peggy’s thirty-plus-year career is her unwavering commitment to journalistic ethics and objectivity. Peggy has been a religion reporter at the Salt Lake Tribune for decades, and she tells why she doesn’t like to share her opinions.

Don’t miss our other conversations with Peggy: https://gospeltangents.com/people/peggy-fletcher-stack/

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She is asked daily about her personal faith but maintains it is “not for public disclosure,” stating she is a “person of faith” who respects others but keeps her own private. She firmly believes a credible journalist cannot be an opinion writer. She actively avoids expressing personal opinions on politics or religion in her reporting or on social media. While her choice of stories and sources reveals focus, she strives for neutrality in her own voice. This commitment means she receives criticism from all sides, even noting she gets “more hate mail than our sports reporters.”

She highlights the challenge that some readers and even sources don’t grasp why journalists don’t simply adopt a specific viewpoint or give the LDS Church the “last word.” She explains her approach to sourcing often prioritizes current “stakeholders” within a faith community for present-day issues, while respecting former members’ perspectives on their personal journeys but finding them less ideal sources for current church affairs.

The conversation also underscores the dramatic transformation in journalism brought by the internet. Contrasting with her early freelance days in Kenya where in-person interviews and library research were essential, online resources now make research significantly easier. However, this ease has contributed to journalism becoming a 24/7 job, with constant demands and potentially less emphasis on crucial in-person reporting. Peggy cautions that younger reporters can sometimes mistake online “buzz” for broad public concern, stressing the importance of understanding what “average believers in the pew” are discussing.

Peggy also touched on the dramatic transformation in journalism due to the internet, contrasting her early freelance days in Kenya with the 24/7 nature of reporting today. While online resources make research easier, the constant demand and decreased emphasis on in-person reporting present new challenges.

Despite these challenges and the constant criticism, Peggy finds her job exciting, enjoying the process of analyzing and connecting the dots. She has no immediate plans to retire, suggesting the 2034 Olympics as a potential bookend for her career since her first story coincided with Salt Lake’s losing the 1998 Olympic bid to Japan.

Stepping back into the conversation with Peggy Fletcher Stack of the Salt Lake Tribune, the discussion moved beyond her career origins to highlight the core principle for Peggy is journalistic ethics and objectivity. She firmly believes a credible journalist cannot be an opinion writer. She gets asked daily about her own faith but maintains it’s not for public disclosure, as her role is to report fairly on all faiths. She consciously avoids expressing her personal opinions on politics or religion in her reporting or on social media. While her choice of stories and sources reveals focus, she strives for neutrality in her own voice.

She illustrated the challenge of this by describing how people, including some within the LDS Churc don’t always understand why journalists don’t simply adopt a specific viewpoint or give one source the “last word.” This commitment to reporting on conflict, even when it’s sensitive, means she receives criticism from all sides, sometimes even more hate mail than sports reporters.

Do you agree with why Peggy Fletcher Stack’s opinion is not for public consumption. Do you think there is too much opinion by reporters? Do reporters and columnists confuse the line between journalism and opinion?

Don’t miss our other conversations with Peggy: https://gospeltangents.com/people/peggy-fletcher-stack/

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In a recent candid conversation, Stassi Cramm, the first female prophet of the Community of Christ, discussed the Kirtland Temple sale & highly publicized sale of historic sites. She offered insights into the church’s current financial & addressed the complexities of continuing to lead a worldwide, diverse body on issues of inclusion and mission.

President Cramm, who was ordained in June 2025 and previously served nine years in the First Presidency, emphasized that her approach centers on faithful agility and discerning God’s ongoing call for the church.

Don’t miss our other conversations with Stassi: https://gospeltangents.com/people/stassi-cramm/

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In a recent candid conversation, Stassi Cramm, the first female prophet of the Community of Christ, offered insights into the church’s current financial reality following the highly publicized sale of historic sites, including the Kirtland Temple, and addressed the complexities of continuing to lead a worldwide, diverse body on issues of inclusion and mission.

President Cramm, who was ordained in June 2025 and previously served nine years in the First Presidency, emphasized that her approach centers on faithful agility and discerning God’s ongoing call for the church.

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The sale of the Kirtland Temple and associated properties to the LDS Church generated almost $200 million. This revenue was immediately invested into the church’s endowments, which are intended to provide some foundational income for the annual budget.

However, Cramm confirmed a widespread projection that this sale alone did not generate enough to fully endow the operations of the church into perpetuity. The current financial model still relies significantly on Worldwide Mission Tithes (tithing) as an essential element of discipleship.

Based on current trends, if the number of financial supporters continues to slowly decline, the Community of Christ will face additional financial questions around the year 2030.

Cramm noted that the church’s leaders, including the Council of 12 and the Presiding Bishopric, are focused on defining what the church “needs to be” in the future. The goal is not merely to keep the lights on, but to do so while faithfully being who God needs them to be in the world.

This strategy involves:

President Cramm concluded that success must be measured in faithfulness terms, rather than “worldly terms” like turning a profit or hitting a specific number of members in the pews.

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The conversation also turned to the church’s approach to LGBTQ+ inclusion, a topic that remains widely discussed both in the U.S. and within the global church.

Community of Christ policy allows the World Conference to establish broad principles, while national or field conferences can weigh in on particulars based on local needs and discernment. This approach acknowledges that in some parts of the world, discussing inclusion topics can be life-threatening or illegal.

When asked whether an openly gay apostle might be called under her administration, President Cramm emphasized a key distinction regarding ordination policy:

Ultimately, when considering priesthood calls, including that of an apostle, the focus should not be on sexual orientation, but on “who is God calling”. However, political considerations in conservative areas do play a role in making assignments for all priesthood members, ensuring that their ministry will be well-received in that area.

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The ability to navigate complex and divisive issues is central to Community of Christ culture. Even following the acceptance of women’s priesthood in 1984, which caused some to walk out of conference, the church has learned to live in a space of faithful disagreement.

Cramm noted that she had received opposing votes against her call in June 2025 from individuals who still do not support women in the priesthood but remain committed to other aspects of the church’s mission.

The principles of faithful disagreement acknowledge that members are all trying to discern God’s will, but due to human imperfections, they do not always reach the same conclusion. This means:

Cramm observed that the divisive nature of decisions like the 1984 priesthood revelation and the recent sale of the Kirtland Temple underscore the need for the church to achieve a high degree of consensus on critical matters, often moving beyond a simple majority toward 80% agreement or more before adopting new policies that aim to be transformative.

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Finally, President Cramm addressed the recurring accusation that the Community of Christ is “moving away from the Book of Mormon”.

She emphatically denied this characterization, noting that the church’s belief statement upholds the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants as two additional books of scripture supporting the testimony of the Bible. If the church were trying to move away from it, they would need to rewrite that statement.

Cramm explained that the perception of the Book of Mormon playing a smaller role stems from the church being non-creedal; they do not require members to use specific scriptures when preaching or teaching. Furthermore, Community of Christ has not taken an absolute stance on the historicity of the Book of Mormon, which sometimes causes concern among those who view it as a test of faith.

Cramm acknowledged a practical shortcoming: the church’s version of the Book of Mormon is not available in French and Spanish. Given that French may be the dominant language spoken in Community of Christ on a given Sunday morning globally, this unavailability means large segments of the church do not have easy access to it. Despite this, leadership currently has no plans to de-canonize the Book of Mormon.

Don’t miss our other conversations with Stassi: https://gospeltangents.com/people/stassi-cramm/

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We’re discussing 2 controversial topics with Stassi Cramm, President of the Community of Christ. We’ll focus on the controversial sale of Kirtland Temple, as well as the schism that followed the 1984 revelation on women’s ordination. Which was more controversial? Check out our conversation…

Don’t miss our other conversations with Stassi: https://gospeltangents.com/people/stassi-cramm/

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The 1984 revelation that allowed women to hold the priesthood led to an immediate schism within the church, which was then known as the RLDS Church. President Cramm, who was not present at the 1984 conference, describes the period as rancorous with hard feelings. Following the decision, there were significant conflicts, including debates over property ownership and padlocks being put on church doors as whole congregations pulled away from the main body of the church. The opposition was so strong that a resolution to rescind the 1984 revelation was brought forward at the 1986 conference, though it did not pass.

President Cramm contrasts this divisive experience with how the church handled the more recent, and also potentially divisive, issue of same-sex marriage in the early 2010s. Learning from the past, Church leadership approached the topic more slowly, with years of study and conversation. They developed “the principles of faithful disagreement,” which allow members to hold differing opinions on church decisions without being judged as unfaithful. While the church still lost members after implementing new policies on same-gender marriage in 2013, the schism was not as severe as in 1984. Today, there are still members who do not believe women should be ordained, and some voiced their opposition to President Cramm’s call at the most recent conference, which she notes is acceptable within the church’s framework.

A significant portion of the conversation addresses the recent sale of Kirtland Temple and other historic sites to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This decision was very difficult and emotional, comparable in some ways to the 1984 revelation.

The discussion also highlighted the Community of Christ’s legislative-style World Conference, which differs significantly from the LDS Church’s General Conference. Members can speak directly to church leadership from podiums on the conference floor, expressing support or opposition for resolutions. President Cramm finds this process respectful, though it can be emotionally charged and uncomfortable as the presider, who feels the weight of the entire room’s emotions. The process is governed by Robert’s Rules of Order, which includes alternating between speakers for and against a motion.

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Stassi Cramm is the 1st female Prophet-President of the Community of Christ. I asked her to reflect back on the 1984 revelation that granted priesthood to women and her time as a lifelong member of Community of Christ. Was it hard? Check out our conversation…

Don’t miss our other conversations with Stassi: https://gospeltangents.com/people/stassi-cramm/

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0:00 Meet Stassi Cramm

Stassi Cramm was ordained 1st female prophet of Community of Christ earlier this year in June 2025.

Stassi Cramm was a young adult just starting her career in Southern California when the Community of Christ (then the RLDS Church) experienced a pivotal moment in its history: a revelation was presented that, among other things, opened the door for women to be ordained to the priesthood. For many, it was a moment of profound rightness. For others, it was a deeply divisive decision that would reshape the church for years to come.

She recalls being “oblivious” to the years of study and conversation that led to this moment, as she had been busy with university and her new job. She wasn’t at the 1984 World Conference where this new scripture, now Section 156 of the Community of Christ Doctrine and Covenants, was approved. News traveled slowly back then, through weekly long-distance phone calls and reports from conference attendees returning home.

When President Cramm finally read the new revelation, her reaction was immediate. “For me, there was this immediate sense of rightness to it and this sense of course! Why hadn’t I thought of this before?” she recalls. She expresses a retrospective sense of shame that, as a woman in the male-dominated field of flight test engineering, she hadn’t previously recognized the “lack of equal opportunity for leadership and service” in her own church.

However, she soon learned of the “divisive nature” of the decision. People had walked out of the conference in protest, and the revelation sparked a schism within the church. Congregations split. Padlocks were put on church doors, and debates raged over property ownership. President Cramm’s own congregation in Lancaster, California, handled the change well. But the wider church felt the strain.

Two years later, in 1986, Stassi Cramm received her first call to the priesthood. She remembers the vulnerability of that moment, standing before her stake conference as some members, including people she considered friends, raised their hands in opposition.

“It’s hard. You feel vulnerable anyways when you’re accepting a call. And so when there’s a group of people who raise their hand against you, intellectually you understand it. Emotionally you feel it”.

She credits the very first women who were ordained as her heroes, calling them “amazing path makers” who endured verbal criticism with humility and faithfulness. For herself, she chose to live in the difficult space of maintaining friendships with those who disagreed, recognizing that differing perspectives on whether the revelation was “of God” shouldn’t sever their ability to be friends. This, she notes, is where Christlike love becomes a conscious choice, not a feeling—a choice to respect others’ opinions even when you don’t share them.

This experience highlights a core aspect of the Community of Christ’s culture: navigating faithful disagreement. President Cramm later moved to a congregation in Las Vegas where a group remained opposed to women in the priesthood. The congregation found a way to coexist, making small accommodations for one another. For example, if a woman said the communion prayer, a male priesthood member would serve the sacrament to those who objected.

These were hard conversations, but they were necessary to stay in community together. President Cramm shares a poignant memory of a conversation with a woman who opposed her call as pastor. It ended with a mutual promise: “I will continue to pray for you.”

“And I will continue to pray for you.”

It was a moment of recognition that both were seeking God’s will and had to trust God to lead them forward together.

The 1984 revelation was more than just a policy change; it was a defining event that forced the church to confront deep divisions and learn how to live together amidst profound disagreement. The lessons learned from that difficult period continue to shape the Community of Christ’s approach to decision-making, emphasizing conversation, study, and seeking a higher degree of consensus on important issues.

She has come a long way since 1984, becoming the 1st female Prophet of Community of Christ!

Don’t miss our other conversations with Stassi: https://gospeltangents.com/people/stassi-cramm/

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Here is my JWHA recap 2025! I’ll show photos and give my reactions to the award winners! Check it out!

Don’t miss our other Tangent Trips! https://gospeltangents.com/mormon_history/gt-trips/

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Fresh off the plane from Kansas City, I wanted to share a recap of my fantastic, albeit hectic, week at the John Whitmer Historical Association (JWHA) meetings in Independence. It’s been a whirlwind of travel lately—from Atlanta to Canada and then straight to JWHA—but the experience was absolutely worth it.

The awards ceremony was a major highlight, celebrating the brilliant minds in Mormon History. A truly special moment was seeing Mark Staker, this year’s JWHA president, present Grant McMurray with a Lifetime Achievement Award. Grant, a former president of the Community of Christ and one of the founders of JWHA 50 years ago, was in high spirits despite being in a wheelchair, which I hadn’t seen before. He joked that with a Lifetime Achievement Award, he didn’t need to do anything else in his life, which got a good laugh from everyone.

Congratulations are also in order for several other award winners:

The conference was packed with fascinating people and presentations. I had the opportunity to present with Mark Tensmeyer and Amanda Hendrix-Komoto on Joseph Smith’s polygamy and the statistical question of how many children he should have had. We’re hoping to get a group together for a follow-up discussion soon.

Unfortunately, due to scheduling conflicts, I missed several presentations I was eager to see, including those by Kyle Beshears (my favorite Baptist pastor), my good friend Newell Bringhurst, Ganesh Cherian, and Jared Halverson. Kyle, an expert on James Strang, was even passing out hilarious Nintendo 64-style stickers of Strang.

It was a joy to reconnect with so many friends and colleagues, including:

One of the most exciting parts of the trip was interviewing Stassi Cramm, the first female prophet of the Community of Christ. The interview took place this morning, and I’m hoping to edit and post it this weekend, so keep an eye out for that! I also had the pleasure of meeting other leaders from the Community of Christ, including Bunda Chibwe of the First Presidency.

We also took a fascinating tour led by Matt Harris to Topeka, Kansas, to visit the elementary school of Linda Brown from the landmark Brown v. Board of Education Supreme Court case. Now a museum run by the National Park Service, it was a powerful experience to see the history firsthand.

For those planning ahead, next year’s JWHA conference will be in Council Bluffs, Iowa, home of Winter Quarters, so I expect we’ll have some great historical tours there as well.

It was an exhausting but incredibly rewarding week. Thanks to everyone who makes this community so vibrant and fun. I’m already looking forward to next year!

Don’t miss our other Tangent Trips! https://gospeltangents.com/mormon_history/gt-trips/

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