Mormon Stories Podcast

Is there more than one way to be a Mormon? What qualifies as "authentic Mormonism"? Has it always been this way? Is it possible to reconcile religious belief with a natural, scientific view of the universe?

Many people see secular and religious views as incompatible. They seem to believe it necessary to suspend disbelief and accept superstition in order to be religious, or that religion is an obstacle to productive engagement with the world. Even many of us who still profess some level of religiosity will admit that religion sometimes makes productive engagement more difficult and is sometimes less effective than it could be. For those who believe in prophecies of the eventual redemption of humanity, is it possible to work toward a vision of the future that is understood only vaguely, if at all? What is the effect of faith that is not active? Might active faith in Mormon (and other religious) visions of the future be essential to realizing them?

Today we'll be talking with Carl Youngblood about his life as a Mormon and a transhumanist, what that word even means, and how his struggle to apply his faith meaningfully in our rapidly changing world has led him to co-found the Mormon Transhumanist Association, where he currently serves as a member of the board of Directors. Carl looks forward to sharing his ideas and answering your questions about his life and faith.

Was your marriage destroyed, or almost destroyed by the LDS Church's 12-step program for pornography "addiction"? Join us today as we sit down with Nik and Dawna Berry to discuss how the LDS Church's 12-step program for Pornography addiction almost ruined their marriage, and how they survived and healed from it.

Mitch Shira is an actor and impressionst whose TikTok videos have been taking the progressive and post-Mormon world by storm.  Under the TikTok handle "genie_man," Mitch impersonates past and present LDS Church General Authorities with incredible accuracy and sharp-edged humor.  Today, meet the man behind the voices. 

Warning: Adult humor.  Discussion of electro-schock therapy of LGBTQ Mormons.

A sampling of MItch's videos:

• Gordon B. Hinckley
• Boyd K. Packer
• Thomas S. Monson
• Jeffrey R. Holland
• Gollum/Smeagol
• A compilation of GA's in an aspirational apology for LDS Church past wrongdoings.

Join us today as we bring back the wonderful, groundbreaking historian Shannon Caldwell Montez.

Previously on Mormon Stories, Shannon shared with us:

1. Her research regarding how LDS Church general authority, historian, and chief apologist B.H. Roberts lost his testimony in Book of Mormon historicity, and
2. Her own heartbreaking and inspiring story as a Mormon woman, wife, and mother.

Today Shannon returns to share with us her research regarding "The Secret Mormon Meetings of 1922" - which were organized by LDS Church General Authority B.H. Roberts after he failed to obtain any meaningful or useful answers from the LDS Church First Presidency, Quorum of the 12, or other General Authorities regarding the deep and significant scientific problems that completely undermine the credibility of the Book of Mormon as ancient history.

Shannon's thesis is outstanding, and it can be found here.

• He discusses life as a Mormon in the UK in the 2000's.
• He was raised in the same area as Tom Phillips, the high-ranking Mormon church leader in the U.K. who lost his faith and left the church AFTER receiving his 2nd anointing.
• His story explores how painful and damaging Mormonism can be on families when a parent loses their faith.
• He discusses his own very recent loss of faith as a young adult in the U.K., after being a very devout believing youth (just over the past year).

• Converting to the LDS Church in Scotland,
• Teenage pregnancy.
• Being a devout Mormon in Scotland.
• Navigating an abusive marriage that included drug addiction.
• Navigating divorce and remarriage within the Mormon church in Scotland.
• Dealing with harmful messages and policies regarding female sexuality as a Mormon Scott, including damaging bishop interviews.
• Responding to the Mormon church's harmful LGBTQ policies as a Mormon Scott having been raised in a same-sex household.
• Experiencing a Mormon faith crisis in Scotland.
• Rebuilding life as a post-Mormon divorced Scottish mother.
• Throwing her hat into the political ring in mid-life as a Scottish ex-Mormon woman.

As many of you will recall, Shannon Caldwell Montez joined us on Mormon Stories Podcast in July, 2020 to tell us her own story, as well as to tell us the story of B.H. Roberts - the LDS Church historian and General Authority who was tasked to answer problems about Book of Mormon historicity, only to lose his testimony of the Book of Mormon as a historical document.

During the B.H. Roberts episode we learned about a series of all-day meetings B.H. Roberts had in January, 1922 with the LDS Church First Presidency, Quorum of 12 Apostles, and the Quorum of 70 to discuss these Book of Mormon problems in-depth. Ultimately, Shannon shows in her thesis that the LDS church leadership was both unprepared and unwilling to address the problems Roberts presented - resulting in much disappointment and frustration for Roberts.

In this follow-up interview with Shannon, we review evidence addressing the question as to whether or not Mormon General Authority and church historian B.H. Roberts lost his testimony of the Book of Mormon as a historical document.

Resources Mentioned in the Podcast Include:

• Shannon's Thesis: The Secret Mormon Meetings of 1922
• B.H. Roberts and the Book of Mormon by Thomas G. Alexander in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought
• B.H. Roberts's Studies of the Book of Mormon by Brigham D. Madsen in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought
• "Is There Any Way to Escape These Difficulties?": The Book of Mormon Studies of B.H. Roberts by George D. Smith in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought.
• Mr. Couch and Elder Roberts, by Richard F. Keeler in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought.
• View of the Hebrews by Mormon Handbook
• Remembering B.H. Roberts by Sterling M. McMurrin in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought.
• Defending the Keystone: An Overview of the Arguments For and Against View of the Hebrews as a Possible Source for the Book of Mormon by Madison U  Sowell in Sunstone Magazine
• MormonThink B.H. Roberts Quotes
• B.H. Roberts' Secret Manuscript by Jerald and Sandra Tanner
• Terryl Givens Misrepresents B.H. Roberts by Rollo Tomasi
• B.H. Roberts Book Stirs Controversy by Ron Bitton in Sunstone Magazine
• The Works of B.H. Roberts on Project Gutenberg

For more than a century Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham "translation" has been revered as holy scripture by devout Mormons, and denounced by all credible non-LDS Egyptologists as a 100% erroneous translation -- a combination of Joseph Smith's imagination and some plagiarism (much like the Book of Mormon, the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible, and the Mormon temple ceremony.

The first major scholarly analysis and critique of the Book of Abraham by world-class Egyptologists came in 1912 and was published in the New York Times.  Of course this article was neither appropriately considered nor adequately addressed by LDS church leadership, and ultimately the issue faded from LDS church membership consciousness for several more decades.

Beginning in 1966 with the rediscovery of the core Book of Abraham papyri fragments found in the archives of the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art (that were thought to have been lost in the 1871 Great Chicago Fire), Mormon apologists such as Hugh Nibley, John Gee, Daniel C. Peterson, Kerry Muhlestein, Michael D. Rhodes, etc. have attempted to employ apologetic tactics to rescue the Book of Abraham from a total loss of credibility - once credible translations of the papyrus demonstrated undeniably that Joseph Smith's "translation" was 100% inaccurate, and in fact, had nothing to do with Abraham at all.  In fact, the papyri were dated to be written over 1500 years after the time Abraham would have lived.

For decades questioning, doubting, and non-believing Mormons have engaged with Mormon apologists like Nibley, Gee, Muhlestein, and Rhodes to determine the historicity and legitimacy of the Book of Abraham - with the credibility of Joseph Smith and the LDS church restoration hanging in the balance.  In spite of the LDS church's century-long efforts to either hide or convolute the issues surrounding the Book of Abraham, many Mormons have lost their faith and left the church over the Book of Abraham, as it is often listed as one of the primary reasons that Mormons lose their faith.

While many orthodox, doubting, and post-Mormons have heard the opinions of pseudo-Egyptologists/Book of Abraham apologists like John Gee, Kerry Muhlestein, and Michael D. Rhodes, few Mormons or post-Mormons have actually heard the opinions of a legitimate, world-class Egyptologist about the historicity and credibility of the Book of Abraham - until today.

Today, as a joint production of Mormon Stories Podcast and Radio Free Mormon podcast, we interview Dr. Robert Ritner.  Dr. Ritner is Professor of Egyptology at the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago and was from 1991-1996 the first Marilyn M. Simpson Assistant Professor of Egyptology at Yale University.  Dr. Ritner is the author of over 100 publications on Egyptian religion, magic, medicine, language and literature, as well as social and political history. He has lectured extensively on each of these topics throughout the United States, Europe and Egypt.  Ritner has led Oriental Institute tours of Egypt for 30 years.  He is also the author of The Joseph Smith Egyptian Papyri: A Complete Edition, and an essay entitled “Translation and Historicity of the Book of Abraham” — A Response - written as a response to the LDS church's gospel topics essay on the Book of Abraham, which is deeply problematic according to Dr. Ritner.

In this three-part sit-down with Dr. Ritner, we will discuss his upbringing in Houston, Texas and his scholarly background and the events that led to him becoming interested in the Book of Abraham.  We will provide a contextualizing history to the Book of Abraham story, and discuss in-depth Joseph Smith's completely erroneous translation of Facsimiles 1-3 from the papyrus.  We explore the emergence of the Abraham Egyptian Papers in the mid 1960s, along with the discovery of the "lost" Book of Abraham papyrus.  We end this series by exploring some of the seemingly unscholarly and disingenuous tactics used by Book of Abraham apologists John Gee, Kerry Muhlestein, and Michael D. Rhodes to try to bolster belief in the Book of Abraham.

Finally, a HUGE thanks to Bruce MacArthur for making this interview possible. Also, a MASSIVE thanks to RFM for co-hosting, Bill Reel for all of his great work over the years, along with all of the amazing scholars who helped me/us prepare for this interview, including: Mike Brown of the Mormon Stories Truth Claims essays, MormonThink, Jeremy Runnells and the CES Letter, Dan Vogel, Brent Metcalfe, Letter for my Wife, MormonInfoGraphics.com, this super cool video, and much much more content than I could ever fully list here.

——————

Sadly, Dr. Ritner passed away on July 25, 2021. He was one of the few non-Mormon Egyptology experts willing to address tough issues with the Book of Abraham and its apologists. He will always be missed.

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Show Notes:

• The Joseph Smith Egyptian Papyri: A Complete Edition by Robert K. Ritner
• "Translation and Historicity of the Book of Abraham," Gospel Topics Essay
• "Translation and Historicity of the Book of Abraham--A Response," by Robert K. Ritner, University of Chicago Oriental Institute
• "Facsimile 1 Examined", comparing the Joseph Smith translation to what it actually says in Egyptian
• "The Four Sons of Horus, Facsimile 2 Figure 6," by John Gee
• Mormon Stories interview with Shannon Caldwell Montez
• The Four Sons of Horus
• "Lion Couch Scene in the Book of Abraham: Evidence of Authenticity," produced by FAIR
• "The Book Of Abraham – Missing Scrolls, Catalyst Theories, and Bad Apologetics" on Radio Free Mormon
  Part 1
  Part 2
  Part 3
• Robert Ritner's Curriculum Vitae
• "Public Response to Translation and Historicity of the Book of Abraham," linked from Dr. Ritner's homepage at the University of Chicago
• The Mechanics of Ancient Egyptian Magical Practice by Robert Ritner
• “The 'Breathing Permit of Hor' Thirty-Four Years Later," by Robert Ritner, Dialogue, April 2021
• "Interview with John Gee on the Book of Abraham," FAIRVoice podcast, July 30, 2020 
• "The Book of Abraham, Revelation, and You," by Kerry Muhlstein, Ensign, 2018
• Comparison of the Facsimile 2 papyrus and the version printed in the Book of Abraham
• "The Source of the Book of Abraham Identified," by Grant S. Heward and Jerald Tanner, Dialogue, Summer 1968
• "Facsimile 2 Examined", comparing the Smith translation to what it says in Egyptian
• "Notes on the Sons of Horus," by John Gee, FARMS, 1991
• "The Book of Abraham, I Presume," by John Gee, FairMormon Conference, 2012
• "Evidences of the Book of Abraham: Historicity," by Kerry Muhlstein, Pearl of Great Price Central
• "Kolob, the Governing One," Pearl of Great Price Central
• "Facsimile 3 Examined", comparing the Smith translation to what it says in Egyptian
• "The Breathing Permit of Hor: A Translation of the Apparent Source of the Book of Abraham," by Klaus Baer, Dialogue, 1968
• "All the Court’s a Stage: Facsimile 3, a Royal Mumming," by Hugh Nibley, Abraham in Egypt, 2000
• An Introduction to the Book of Abraham, by John Gee
• The Hor Book of Breathings: A Translation and Commentary by Michael D. Rhodes
• "Book of Abraham Facsimile No. 3," by Paul Osborne
• "Brian Hauglid Interview" on Radio Free Mormon
• The Lost Book of Abraham: Investigating a Remarkable Claim, documentary by John Grooters
• Adam Clarke's Bible Commentary
• "Joseph Smith, Adam Clarke, and the Making of a Bible Revision," by Thomas A Wayment, Journal of Mormon History, July 2020
• The lead printing plate used for Facsimile 3
• The Rocky Mountain Saints: A Full and Complete History of the Mormons, from the First Vision of Joseph Smith to the Last Courtship of Brigham Young...and the Development of the Great Mineral Wealth of the Territory of Utahby Thomas Stenhouse
• "Museum Walls Proclaim Fraud of Mormon Prophet: Sacred Books Claimed to Have Been Given Divinely to the First Prophet Are Shown to be Taken from Old Egyptian Originals, Their Translation Being a Work of the Imagination---What a Comparison with Metropolitan Museum Treasure Shows," New York Times, December 2