RFM and Bill sit down with Sandra Tanner, a well known writer and researcher, on the critical side of Mormonism. We sit down with Sandra to discuss her impact within Mormonism and to touch on a few stories that viewers may find interesting.

In this week’s episode, Bill and RFM take a look at instances in Mormon History where LDS Leadership seem to be giving a stamp of approval to Leaders and Members to be dishonest, to lie, and to deceive. Once we understand the instruction and permissions given to be dishonest we can going forward see their deceptions and dishonesty within greater context.

RESOURCES:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-31-honesty?lang=eng

http://www.mormonthink.com/files/lying-for-lord-ken-clark.pdf

http://www.mormonthink.com/lying.htm 

http://packham.n4m.org/lying.htm

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=lying%20for%20the%20lord

https://digitalcommons.law.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1014&context=clarkmemorandum#page=15

http://www.mormonismi.net/pdf/lying_for_the_lord.pdf

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1986/01/truth-and-more?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teaching-seminary-preservice-readings-religion-370-471-and-475/the-mantle-is-far-far-greater-than-the-intellect?lang=eng

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/issues/V31N03.pdf

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/elder-oaks-interview-transcript-from-pbs-documentary

https://books.google.com/books?id=ytIbMwyenKYC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=%22training+I+have+had+from+those+over+me%22+mathias+cowley&source=bl&ots=Oodm2kHqQz&sig=ACfU3U2zLyIJRpeiKsd4cTuLZsC9dq7rng&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwja9dr3jLL3AhUGJkQIHXHAChIQ6AF6BAgCEAM#v=onepage&q=%22training%20I%20have%20had%20from%20those%20over%20me%22%20mathias%20cowley&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=ytIbMwyenKYC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=%22We+have+always+been+taught+that+when+the+brethren+were+in+a+tight+place+that+it+would+not+be+amiss+to+lie+to+help+them+out%22+mathias+cowley&source=bl&ots=Oodm2kIiRF&sig=ACfU3U2xlBEmLonbWVr3InNbDCYWS402_g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjhwuzejbL3AhX1JkQIHQqgB6YQ6AF6BAgCEAM#v=onepage&q=%22We%20have%20always%20been%20taught%20that%20when%20the%20brethren%20were%20in%20a%20tight%20place%20that%20it%20would%20not%20be%20amiss%20to%20lie%20to%20help%20them%20out%22%20mathias%20cowley&f=false

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1983/01/the-candle-of-the-lord?lang=eng

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/04/Gospel-Teachings-About-Lying.pdf

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-31-honesty?lang=eng

We sit down with American anthropologist and Author, Thomas Murphy to discuss the Book of Mormon within the context of Native American History. We explore the legends and history of the indigenous people to see if there are connections there that help us examine the historicity of the Book of Mormon and the claims of Mormonism surrounding its imposition of Lamanites

Bill and RFM dive into the apocryphal book of Judith and point out the many similarities between that apocryphal story and the Book of Mormon’s story about Nephi and his encounter and eventual beheading of Laban.

RESOURCES:

debunking-cesletter.com/book-of-mormon-1/view-of-the-hebrews-joseph-smith-sr-dream/

http://jur.byu.edu/?p=21296

https://rsc.byu.edu/doctrine-covenants-revelations-context/joseph-smith-emanuel-swedenborg-section-76-importance-bible

https://i.redd.it/uckai9n1qyn81.jpg

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-91-the-apocrypha?lang=eng

https://www.ksl.com/article/11790001/joseph-smith-family-bible-goes-on-sale

https://i.redd.it/71fpzs9h69x01.png

http://wordtree.org/thelatewar/

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:_Did_Joseph_Smith_create_the_story_of_Nephi_and_Laban_by_plagiarizing_concepts_and_phrases_from_the_story_of_Judith_and_Holofernes_in_the_Apocrypha%3F

https://ebible.org/pdf/eng-kjv/eng-kjv_JDT.pdf

https://ebible.org/pdf/eng-kjv/eng-kjv_JDT.pdf

RFM and Bill sit down once again with Dan Vogel and Brent Metcalfe to examine the problems with the Book of Abraham as a translation of an ancient document in a sacred text for Mormonism generally and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints specifically. Dan and Brent share their scholarship and help us grasp some of the messiness around this issue.

Bill Reel and RFM will dive into Mormon Gaslighting. They will discuss the psychology of gaslighting, discuss its origin, and then delve into a handful of examples among the hundreds that could be explored and conclude discussing the harm that comes to the one being gaslit.

RESOURCES:

https://mormonismlive.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/Gaslighting-Examples.pdf

Movie Gaslight – https://youtu.be/UYmtzaHwCKo?t=828

Elder Ballard not knowing where Baptism invitations after the first discussion came from – https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-and-ministry/2019-06-26/president-ballard-said-missionaries-shouldnt-invite-people-to-be-baptized-without-feeling-the-spirit-heres-why-701

Where Baptism invitations after the first discussion came from – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/36617_eng.pdf

Mormons not getting their own planet – https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fnews-ca.churchofjesuschrist.org%2Farticle%2Fmormonism-101-faq%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR0V8Q2Ti4xp1oUJ5-xDnOrGE5oBxaP43_fLetCr31Z1Qc5n3Rhm0KlDuds&h=AT3P_IMMUNCvo18LtNAbs3zw8i7Y2LAgJk_b9y80Mw8AyOhEtDsWgZYsVoDVIM1CKJYoiKjPq3FWgcb1yhFOokdzL3D9Nh2brA5WfewMZSXAHX4UFB4loc4s4ob1hdz4XO0

Mormons getting their own planet – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/broadcasts/article/christmas-devotional/2018/12/four-gifts-that-jesus-christ-offers-to-you?lang=eng

Mormons getting their own planet – https://youtu.be/sd52qp2mxC8?t=941

Mormons getting their own planet – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/31129_eng.pdf

Ronald Poelman 1984 – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qIr30dtCvo

Mormonism has never been racist – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2000/09/no-more-strangers?lang=eng

Mormonism’s Racism – https://www.mormonstories.org/other/Lowry_Nelson_1st_Presidency_Exchange.pdf

Mormonism’s Racism – https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Mormonism_and_racial_issues/Blacks_and_the_priesthood/Statements#1949

Mormonism’s Racism – https://missedinsunday.com/memes/race/pure-blood/

Mormonism’s Racism – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people_and_Mormonism

Elder Oaks laughing about hiding the 1832 account and Elder Ballard saying we never hid anything – https://youtu.be/Uj2VWhuW50w?t=2849

Weird Alma Song Gaslighting – https://weirdalma.bandcamp.com/track/gaslighting

Spencer Kimball Gaslighting about Adam-God Doctrine – https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Mormonism_and_doctrine/Repudiated_concepts/Adam-God_theory?fbclid=IwAR2v60FTK6jT1Imxro1VKvhPXOx8e2HXftteH2t5iOlk2_TkRbxaxTrbFCE

Bruce R McConkie Gaslighting regarding Adam-God – https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/bruce-r-mcconkie-misled-on-adam-god/

RFM and Bill Reel sit down with special guests to discuss what The LDS Church looks like in Africa and how its membership upon this continent is affected uniquely.

Bill and RFM sit down with Carah Burrell, co-host on the Mormon Stories podcast, and TikToker under name “nuancehoe”. In our conversation we delve into Prophets, Evolution, the argument against there being free will, and if time we hope to delve into dogma as debated by Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson

Resources:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u45SP7Xv_oU

RFM and Bill sit down with David Bokovoy and with a title like that, who knows where the conversation might go………… David Bokovoy holds a PhD in Hebrew Bible and the Ancient Near East and an MA in Near Eastern and Judaic Studies both from Brandeis University. He received his BA from Brigham Young University, majoring in History and minoring in Near Eastern Studies. In addition to his work in Mormon studies, David has published articles on the Hebrew Bible in a variety of academic venues including the Journal of Biblical Literature, Vetus Testamentum, Studies in the Bible and Antiquity, and theFARMS Review. He is the co-author of the book Testaments: Links Between the Book of Mormon and the Hebrew Bible.

RESOURCES:

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26089486

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2019.02955/full

https://theconversation.com/homosexuality-may-have-evolved-for-social-not-sexual-reasons-128123

https://www.amazon.com/Mating-in-Captivity-Esther-Perel-audiobook/dp/B000IB0EYI/ref=sr_1_1?crid=37GYYI3COZDM6&keywords=mating+captivity&qid=1646880888&sprefix=mating+cap%2Caps%2C127&sr=8-1

What happens when rather than get in close to the sticky issues of Mormonism you step back? In fact step back so far as to see the 30,000 foot view and look at what Mormonism has standing in the way of its truth claims. And how such speaks to just how reasonable and rational it is to release one’s belief in the faith and to step away having allowed oneself to be a rational logical critical thinking human being. (Slide Show – https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/e/2PACX-1vTRBkFT1n0S2tGWAuedzwfuFjXysMjGFsNu6Lp2OHk3Cn3edCqVOKoNEZKN8rFfA46bNyaGddfZG8Fl/pub?start=true&loop=true&delayms=15000 )

1. Scriptural Issues
   1. Book of Mormon 19th Century Material
   2. Book of Mormon Anachronisms
   3. Plagiarism from New Testament
   4. Book of Abraham issues
   5. Bible Translation plagiarized from Adam Clarke’s commentary
   6. Theological changes in canon over time
   7. 2nd and 3rd Isaiah
      
2. Spiritual Manifestation Issue
   1. Moroni vs Nephi
   2. First Vision Discrepancies
   3. Seeing the Cumorah Cave in Palmyra New York in spite of being a clean hill
   4. Peter James and John PH restoration added late
   5. Moroni blessing Manti
   6. Brigham Young Transfiguration
      
3. Issues with Joseph Smith’s Character
   1. Lying about polygamy to Emma and others
   2. Manipulating Lucy Walker 
   3. Pattern of approaching girls or young women in his home for intimate relationships (Lucy Walker, Fanny Alger, Partridge Sisters, Lawrence Sisters) 
   4. Polyandry 
   5. Nancy Rigdon & The Happiness Letter 
   6. Underage girls (two 14 year olds, two 16 year olds, two 17 year olds) 
   7. Treasure Digging
   8. Other financial frauds: Kirtland anti-bank, land issues, bad loans
      
4. Science and Critical Thinking
   1. Great Flood 
   2. Tower of Babel 
   3. Shiz rises after head cut off 
   4. 2000 stripling warriors in a battle with a more experienced larger military force and not a single soul was lost not to the battle and not to infection afterwards inspite of many fainting from bloodloss 
   5. Battles in the Millions around Cumorah and what it takes to have military engagement that large 
   6. Moroni blessing Manti 
   7. Trans Oceanic Voyage 
   8. Lamanite DNA 
   9. Age of the earth & Evolution
      
5. Church Administration
   1. Second Anointings 
   2. 100’s of Billions of dollars saved in investments rather than solving world problems 
   3. Nepotism 
   4. Leaders are insulated and promote yes men 
   5. Well paid Leaders 
   6. SCMC
      
6. Past Prophetic Deception 
   1. Adam God Doctrine 
   2. Racial Curse and Racial Valiancy 
   3. Joseph Smith mock wedding with Partridge Sisters 
   4. Treasure Digging 
   5. Mountain Meadows (Brigham’s destruction of the marker and lying about it and blaming the Native Americans) 
   6. 1890, 1904 Manifesto
   7. 1933 lying about the 1886 John Taylor Revelation
      
7. Modern Prophetic Deception
   1. Elder Holland (BBC Interview, Story about missionary meeting his brother, Double Digit Stake Creation every week of our lives) 
   2. Paul Dunn 
   3. President Nelson (Flight of Death, Zimbabwe, Lady in the hat)
   4. Bruce R McConkie lying about Brigham teaching Adam God 
   5. Elder Oaks lying about Electroshock Therapy at BYU under his presidency 
   6. Whitewashing and carefully worded denials of the Gospel Topic Essays
   7. Tom Monson Jr
   8. Quinton Cook – Hospital
   9. Gordon B Hinkley “I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it”
   10. Ronald Poelman and the re-do of his conference talk
       
8. False or embellished Faith Promoting stories
   1. Seagulls and Crickets 
   2. Sweetwater Crossing 
   3. Holland, Nelson yarn stretchers 
   4. Brigham Young Transfiguration
   5. Whale of a tale
   6. Wilfor Woodruff Founding Fathers
   7. Lorenzo Snow’s Jesus Visitation
      
9. Trauma Placed On Members
   1. Temple (Sexism, Objectifying Women, Penalties) 
   2. One on One interviews with children and others by an untrained clergy 
   3. “Worthiness” interviews 
   4. Toxic Perfectionism 
   5. Patriarchy Marginalizing women
   6. Marginalization of people of color
   7. Destruction of idiginous people’s identity  
   8. “Indian Placement Program” 
   9. Diminishing those who lose faith with labels (chaff, lazy, sinful) 
   10. Not having a single good story about those who leave 
   11. Gaslighting people continuously regarding their history 
   12. All the harm with polygamy 
   13. Claiming Tithing will get you out of Poverty
       
10. Social Issues
    1. Women have lesser place in mortality and in heaven 
    2. Church still currently maintains that God actually sorted people via their skin color (Be One Celebration)
    3. Church imposes significant harm on LGBT members 
    4. Civil Rights was Communism 
    5. Not Proactive or reactive on Sexual Abuse 
    6. People who stop believing are less than and believers should stay at distance
    7. Always 30-40 years late on almost every social issue in spite of being led by Prophets, Seers, and Revelators
    8. Global/government influences: Defeating ERA, Prop 8, LDS Senator votes for Iraqi War “where boots go, missionaries follow,” the two LDS men (one a Bishop) part of US Govt torture program, cultural appropriation/erasure among Native Americans, Polynesians etc, lobbying against church clergy being mandatory reporters, attempt to make Utah a two-party recording consent state, etc

• Stop here and discuss how every facet of Mormonism’s truth claims when dealt with logically are in favor of the critic.  That when understood collectively, the only fall back Mormonism has is Spiritual Testimony.   That in spite of all the issues, I still believe because I know by the Holy Ghost that it is true.  Except the Holy Ghost doesn’t get a free pass
  
  

1. Ineffectiveness of the Holy Ghost as a tool to convey truth
   1. Elevation Emotion 
   2. Illusory Truth Effect 
   3. Taking Seriously the Spiritual experiences of those outside your faith 
   4. How completely wrong past leaders were in spite of their “Knowing” 
   5. How wrong members have been at past times holding views with certainty when such views have been abandoned or disavowed 
   6. Holy Ghost can be tested and it does no better than no Holy Ghost 
   7. Leaders have been deceived
   8. members have been deceived
      

• And as if that isn’t enough if you apply the same critical thinking to Jesus of Nazareth you end up having another pillar of challenges that hits at the truth of Mormonism (Though I admit also all of Christianity)
  

1. Historical Jesus
   1. Dating of New Testament Authors 
   2. Wrestling with New Testament gospel contradictions 
   3. Understanding the prevalent views of Biblical Criticism
   4. How myths are created (Sapiens) 
   5. How stories easily get embellished (compare with Mormonism) 
   6. How much easier in an age of unverifiable history When supernatural happens and when it doesn’t Issues with the nativity narrative

BONUS ROUND (Not Covered In Episode)

1. Immoral, harmful beliefs taught as moral and good.
   1. Problems with the concept of “fallen” man (unnecessary guilt and/or lack of personal accountability)
   2. Idolizing parricide as act of “love” and “loyalty” (God + Abraham) 
   3. Justifying God’s abusive and narcissistic behaviors as “love”
   4. Forgiveness expected for misbehaving leaders “give Brother Joseph a break”
   5. Lack of empathy/blame for victims
      1. Theological: the Flood, Hell for non-believers, misfortune as punishment (LGBTQ, apostates, etc)
      2. Local/current: blaming SA victims, clergy abuse victims, etc
   6. Internal morality given to God or those perceived to speak for him
      1. Biblical atrocities excused, even genocide
      2. Gives space for modern atrocities to be committed/accepted (even victims sometimes)
         1. Early and modern polygamy/underage rape/trafficking
         2. Modern spouse/child abuse
         3. Murder, theft, imprisonment of apostates/defectors/outsiders (Oliver Cowdery, Danites, Lori Vallow/Chad Daybell)
      3. Obligations to support systems that harm self/others (sexism, Prop 8, etc)
      4. Personal choices/freedoms overridden in favor of the group ideals