Music and the Church with Sarah Bereza

Learn about: the Old Hispanic Chant, methods for analyzing music we can't hear, and what we can learn from medieval processions.

Here's the Big Why: "I think these artifacts that we have - these musical and liturgical artifacts - are as valuable as a Gothic cathedral. And in a way even more valuable, because a Gothic cathedral is a space in which something precious happens. But we have the evidence of the Something Precious. And if we take that seriously, and we look at it, there's a huge amount for us to learn about how to approach God in different ways." - Emma Hornby

About Emma Hornby: Dr. Emma Hornby is Professor of Music at the University of Bristol, UK. She works on Western liturgical chant, and in recent years has focused on the Old Hispanic rite. She is currently leading a Leverhulme International Network, collaborating with colleagues in Spain to explore the processional practices of early medieval Iberia. Her recent research focuses on how Old Hispanic chant texts and melodies interact in order to promote a particular devotional state or theological understanding. Her books include Music and Meaning in Old Hispanic Lenten Chants (co-authored with Rebecca Maloy) and Medieval Liturgical Chant and Patristic Exegesis.

Manuscript image above from "Musical Values and Practice in Old Hispanic Chant" by Emma Hornby

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Transcript of Old Hispanic Chant, with Emma Hornby

Sarah Bereza: Old Hispanic chant – where did it come from?

Emma Hornby: Old Hispanic chant is what they sang in modern day Spain and Portugal up until about the year 1080. And it seems to have been composed, compiled in the seventh century. Our earliest evidence is a little bit later, early 8th century, but this is very ancient Christian chant. It’s Latin, it’s Roman Catholic, but it’s not Gregorian chant. It’s absolutely not the liturgy and not the chant that they were doing in Rome or across the rest of Western Europe. It’s a local way of singing in worship.

How does Old Hispanic Chant Relate to Gregorian Chant?

Sarah Bereza: Can you tell us a little bit about the story of Gregorian chant and other kinds of chant. I think many of our listeners will have experienced Gregorian chant, but there are so many other regional chant families.

Emma Hornby: In the very early Middle Ages, I mean as Christianity was spreading across Europe, pretty much everybody was singing chant, but there was no sense that there was one authoritative way of doing it. There is a tradition which is associated with Milan, which we still have – the manuscripts are much later, from the 12th century - but we have that tradition. Then there were traditions associated with Gaul. We’ve lost almost all of that, the traditions associated with Ireland. Again, we’ve lost almost all of that. Benevento in southern Italy and then Iberia, Spain and Portugal. And then there were chant traditions also associated with Rome.

Emma Hornby: In the eighth century for various reasons, the emperors of pretty much what’s modern day France and Germany – Francia – took on the Roman way of doing liturgy and the Roman way of singing that went with it (or what they thought it was the Roman way of singing that went with it). And that’s what spread like wildfire across western Europe. So that by the 10th or 11th century, they were pretty much singing the same songs on the same days, right across western Europe, from Dublin to Dubrovnik. And we have evidence from both ends of that scale.

Sarah Bereza: This is kind of a political unification – by unifying liturgical elements, unifying the empire.

Emma Hornby: Absolutely so. And it came with a narrative of authority and of uniformity. So it wasn’t just Roman chant but this was Gregorian chant whispered into the ear of Pope Gregory the Great by the Dove of the Holy Spirit.

Music and faith, music and belief - what's the difference, and how can music illuminate our lived experiences of faith?

This is the first of five episodes featuring conversations I recorded this summer with the plenary speakers of the Christian Congregational Music Conference. It was a joy to talk with them, and I'm so glad I get to share these conversations with you! (Scroll down if you'd like to read the transcript of this episode.)

About Jonathan Arnold: Rev. Dr. Jonathan Arnold is the Dean of Divinity at Magdalen College, Oxford. Before ordination, he was a professional vocalist, including with St. Paul’s Cathedral Choir and The Sixteen. He is the author of several books, including Music and Faith: Conversations in a Post-Secular Age and Sacred Music in Secular Society.

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Transcription of Music and the Church Ep. 41: Music and Faith in a Post-Secular Age with Jonathan Arnold

Sarah Bereza: Let's start out by talking about your relationship to music and your own faith background.

Jonathan Arnold: I have always had a love of music and particularly of singing. So I've been in choirs ever since I was a young child at a primary school, secondary school. And then towards the end of my secondary education, I discovered the wealth of Cathedral music, which I didn't really know at all. But when I was about 18, I joined the cathedral choir and had a very steep learning curve of learning to sight read, learning Anglican choir repertoire, which I didn't know, learning how to sing with lay clerks and choristers. And after a year of that very steep learning curve, I went to university in Oxford where I fell in love with the whole world of choral singing and joined as many choirs as I could possibly join. And at the end of that first year, I then was offered a sort of permanent position at one of what's known as the foundations in Oxford, which is one of the big five choir foundations in Oxford and Cambridge.

Jonathan Arnold: So at Magdalen College Oxford, I became a choral scholar, which meant that I was singing seven or eight services every single week, different repertoire for each one. So by that time I could sight read. And by that time, even though I was studying theology at the university officially and had a vocation towards that, I discovered this other vocation, which was music and singing. And I was absolutely determined to to follow that. So at the end of university, I packed up my bags, moved to London without a penny or a job, started teaching music wherever I could, joining choirs wherever I could, making a crust, paying the rent, and then applying to music college. And I went to the Royal Academy of Music, studied singing, and became a professional singer. So I sang for eight years with St. Paul's Cathedral Choir and for 14 years in total with a choir called The Sixteen, who are a professional English choir and many other choirs as well as well as doing solo things.

Jonathan Arnold: But the theology was always there. So whilst I was doing that, I then registered at King's College London to do a doctorate in church history as it happens and completed the doctorate. And then the two vocations of music and theology led me down this path where ordination sort of came at the end of that road. And I went forward for selection and became a priest. So after a few years of training and curacy, I basically gave up the singing and started work as a full time college chaplain in Oxford at Worcester College. And I did that for eight years. And then I've transferred to Magdalen college where I've been Dean of Divinity. And in both of those environments in Oxford, there's a lot of music. There's wonderful college choirs, music within the liturgy as well as pastoral ministry, academic work and so on.

Jonathan Arnold: So that's where I've,

Hymnals and screens often get a knee-jerk response. Supposedly, either hymnals are for old fogeys or people staying true to the faith. And either screens are for people who hate hymns or people who want to use current tools in the church.

But if we get past the surface arguments, we can explore what the pros and cons really are for our congregational singing mediums: hymnals, screen, paperless music, and printed supplements like orders of worship.

On this episode, Crawford Wiley joins me for a thoughtful conversation about our options.

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We work harder than you think, calling doesn't always look conventional, and other things your church leaders wish you knew.

Throughout the past year of interviews, I asked people extra questions and this one drew the most passionate response by far: "What do you wish people knew about your job?"

On this Music and the Church episode, Darrell St. Romain, Deanna Witkowski, Pr. Lisa Heffernan, Anita Smallin, J. J. Wright, Chelsea Chen, and Anny Stevens-Gleason share what they wish people knew about their ministries in the church.

Here are the previous episodes that featured today's guests:

Chelsea Chen on Artist Residencies and Concert Series in the ChurchPr. Lisa Heffernan on Welcoming People with Disabilities in Church Music MinistryAnita Smallin on "A Noisy Church Is a Living Church"Darrell St. Romain on Congregational Singing at MassAnny Stevens-Gleason on Getting Youth Invested in Music MinistryDeanna Witkowski on Congregational SingingJ. J. Wright on Leading the Notre Dame Folk Choir

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Resources Mentioned on This Episode:

"Ten Things This Youth Minister Wants You to Know" by Anita SmallinThe Business of Being a Writer by Jane Friedman"The Canticle of Turning"Frogs Without Legs Can't Hear by David W. Anderson and Paul Hill

What do YOU wish people knew about your ministry in the church?

“The great thing about a chord - you’re already dealing with something people enjoy. You’re not telling people God is a problem to be solved - you’re saying that the Trinity is a reality to be enjoyed.” - Jeremy Begbie

I knew our conversation would be theologically rich—Dr. Jeremy Begbie IS a theologian, after all—but I didn't realize we would get into what is at stake in how we understand God. If God isn't something to be solved—in fact, not a problem at all—how different our love for God can be.

On this month's episode of Music and the Church, Jeremy Begbie and I discuss themes from his recent book A Peculiar Orthodoxy: Reflections on Theology and the Arts, including how music can help us think about our faith, created beauty and creative beauty, and sentimentality. (And yes, how God isn't a problem.) Also: why church services need more dissonant music (yes really!).

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Dr. Jeremy Begbie is a Professor of Theology at Duke University and a Professor at Wolfson College, Cambridge. His numerous books include Resounding Truth: Christian Wisdom in the World of Music and Theology, Music and Time. He has also performed extensively as a musician, and is an ordained minister of the Church of England.

P.S. If you curious about A Peculiar Orthodoxy here's a short review.

This month's episode of Music and the Church features a conversation with Dr. J. J. Wright. J. J. directs the University of Notre Dame Folk Choir, one of America’s most influential Catholic music ensembles. He is a Grammy Award winning jazz musician, composer of O Emmanuel, an album which debuted at the top of the Billboard Classical Charts, and he’s also a scholar of sacred music.

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In our conversation, J. J. and I talk about his journey from military band member to directing the Notre Dame Folk Choir, and how his jazz skills and sacred musicianship have complemented each other.

We also talk about how the music we make can reflect our deepest beliefs about what the Church is. What can the music of the Church sound like if we believe the Church is Christians at all times and in all places?

How did American Christians go from hating rock 'n' roll to embracing contemporary worship music?

One reason is Pentecostalism's influence. On Music and the Church, we've explored how important Pentecostalism was in making the change, and how influential it continues to be on contemporary worship. (Check out this episode if you're curious.)

But Pentecostalism also had a huge influence on the development of rock 'n' roll itself, especially through the music of Little Richard, Elvis Presley, and James Brown - all musicians who worshipped in the Pentecostal tradition growing up.

On this episode, learn more about the connection between rock 'n' roll and American Christianity as Randall J. Stephens discusses his recent book The Devil's Music: How Christians Inspired, Condemned and Embraced Rock 'N' Roll.

Randall J. Stephens is an Associate Professor of British & American Studies at the University of Oslo. You can follow him here on Twitter, and explore some of his other work on American Christianity here.

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If you enjoy this podcast, please consider sharing it with your friends who love church music - it's the best way for them to find the show!

We believe that people all people are made in the image of God.

Full stop.

So, when we are talking about how to make our churches more inclusive, we aren’t talking about welcoming people even though they have disabilities (or even though they are children, as we talked about in last month's episode).

The goal is making our programs better reflect our theology.

The goal is living out our beliefs about what it means to be human, and what it means to love and serve God in community with our siblings in Christ. 

About Pr. Lisa Heffernan

Pastor Lisa Heffernan pastors in South Dakota in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in American. She also serves on the ELCA Disabilities Ministry Team.

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Resources We Mentioned

"Why Americans Go (and Don’t Go) to Religious Services," from the Pew Research ForumLast month's Music and the Church episode with Anita Smallin, which covers similar theological areas in relationship to welcoming children in church services

Favorite Quotes from the Conversation

“We were raised with the idea that it takes all kinds of people to make our world. We all have a place, we all are important, whatever our gifts and abilities may be. And not the perspective of, even though you have a disability, you’re important. No, you are important in the fullness that you are.” — Pastor Lisa Heffernan

“If we believe in a God that embraces all people, we then are called to embrace one another in the name of Christ, and to find ways to make our worshipping communities, all our communities, as ‘accessible’ as possible, so that all can fully participate, because all are beloved children of God.” — Pastor Lisa Heffernan

"The longer our churches stay inaccessible — whatever that looks like — the fewer people we are going to have hear the gospel. And what’s our mission here? We’re not a social club, we’re a church, and our call is to share the gospel. How do we best do that?" — Pastor Lisa Heffernan

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If you enjoy this podcast, please consider sharing it with your friends who love church music. It's the best way for them to find the show!

Children and the church. Children in the church. 

It's complicated, especially with music in the mix.

Join Anita Smallin and me as we discuss how to welcome our littlest sisters and brothers in worship services.

About Anita Smallin

Anita is the Youth and Family Ministry Director at Trinity Lutheran Church (ELCA) in Bethesda, Maryland. She holds a master's degree in Children, Youth, and Family Ministry from Luther Seminary. She is part of the ELCA Disability Ministry Team.

Music and the Church Update

A quick update on Music and the Church: I'm moving the podcast to a monthly schedule. Last year I released 27 episodes (awesome! also: whew!). This year, I need to make space for other exciting projects, while also maintaining quality for Music and the Church. So look for episodes once a month!

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Resources We Mentioned

Anita's blog, with stats on how much time youth leaders like her spend with children in their churchesAugsburg Fortress Splash!Soul Searching: The Religious an Spiritual Lives of American Teenagers by Christian Smith and Melina Lungquist DentonWhirl and Spark Story Bibles

Share This Podcast

If you enjoy this podcast, please consider sharing it with your friends who love church music. It's the best way for them to find the show!

Join Monique M. Ingalls, Muriel Swijghuisen Reigersberg, and Zoe C. Sherinian in a conversation about their new edited collection: Making Congregational Music Local in Christian Communities Worldwide.

Here's more information about the editors: Monique M. Ingalls, Muriel Swijghuisen Reigersberg, and Zoe C. Sherinian.More information on Making Congregational Music Local in Christian Communities Worldwide.

Enjoying this podcast episode? Click here to find other Music and the Church episodes, or subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts.

Share This Podcast

If you enjoy this podcast, please consider sharing it with your friends—it's the best way for them to find the show!