Mutually Amazing Podcast

Delve into an insightful and revealing conversation on gender, identity, and false equivalencies in today's society and political environment with the host of The en(gender)ed podcast, Teri Yuan - as Mike Domitrz asks questions he hears as he travels the world on these topics. * You are invited to join our community and conversations about each episode on FaceBook at https://www.facebook.com/MutuallyAmazingPodcast and join us on Twitter @CenterRespect or visit our website at http://www.MutuallyAmazingPodcast.com**

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BIO of Teri Yuan: Teri Yuan is the host of the weekly podcast, en(gender)ed, which explores the systems, practices and policies that enable gender-based violence and oppression and the solutions to end it, and uses gender as a lens to better understand power and oppression and its impact in the private realm, so as to better recognize and confront it in the public sphere. Teri's journey as an intersectional feminist began in college, where she studied feminist film criticism, post-colonial pedagogy and cultural criticism. Along the way, she has added to her identity--survivor and advocate. She believes that by developing a cultural literacy around power and abuse of power, we can reclaim how we define liberty in relationships and in civic life and solve many of our most urgent social (justice) challenges.

Links to Teri and Teri's work: https://engendered.us/ https://twitter.com/engenderedpod https://www.facebook.com/engenderedpodcast/ https://www.instagram.com/engenderedpodcast/ https://medium.com/@engendered https://www.linkedin.com/company/engenderedpodcast/

A special link Teri shared discussing "What Do All These Letters Mean" https://www.socialworkhelper.com/2013/07/25/alphabet-soup-the-story-of-lgbtqia/

The article discussing the research Teri referenced is: https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/trump-effect-new-study-connects-white-american-intolerance-support-authoritarianism-ncna877886

Book Recommendations: Feminist Theory from Margin to Center by Bell Hooks Love and War by Tom Digby You're More Powerful Thank you Think by Eric Liu

READ THE FULL TRANSCRIPTION of the EPISODE HERE (or download the pdf):

**IMPORTANT: This podcast episode was transcribed by a 3rd party service and so errors can occur throughout the following pages:

Mike Domitrz: (music)

Mike Domitrz: Welcome to the RESPECT Podcast, I'm your host Mike Domitrz from Mikespeaks.com where we help organizations of all sizes, educational institutions and the US military create a culture of respect and respect is exactly what we discuss on this show so let's get started.

Mike Domitrz: Welcome to this week's episode of the RESPECT podcast, I want to get right into it so we can meet our guests and get into this conversation. Our guest this weeks is Teri Yuan, Theresa Yuan. Do you prefer Teri or Theresa?

Teri Yuan: Teri.

Mike Domitrz: Teri, I noticed that when we were communicating back and forth, it was Teri. So but yes, Teri Yuan is the host of the Engendered Podcast, a weekly show that explores the systems, practices, and policies that enable gender based violence and oppression and the solutions to end it. And uses gender as a lens to better understand power and oppression and its impact in the private realm.

Mike Domitrz: So as the better recognizing it in the public sphere. So, Teri, thank you so much for joining us.

Teri Yuan: Thank you for having me.

Mike Domitrz: Oh, our pleasure. What do you think is the place respect has in our current political environment and how does civility play a role in this?

Teri Yuan: I think one of the underlying causes of oppression and abusive power is the fact that there is no common definition of what respect and civility and the role of both of those should be in civil society. There's no recognition of the humanity of other people and there's no common definition of what equality and freedom means.

Mike Domitrz: So that's a great point. So how do you define equality and freedom?

Teri Yuan: Equality is where everybody has access, regardless of your gender, race, class, physical ability, etcetera, to all of the rights and privileges and opportunities that should be afforded to all human beings. And then respect, I think, is recognizing and treating other people with understanding, kindness and compassion. And seeing them as whole human beings.

Mike Domitrz: And do you think that part of the conflict that occurs out there is that in your definition of equality, that you said that all people deserve, do you think that's where the conflict occurs? That some people think, "No, not all people, we don't deserve this treatment. Like you earn respect." Now I don't believe that statement, I talk about it a lot on the show. Talk about it when I'm working with corporations and organizations.

Mike Domitrz: You don't make somebody earn respect, that is a level of arrogance to think, "You have to earn my ability to treat you with respect." But so how do you explain that to people when they say, "Well nobody deserves anything except the basic right to be alive and breathe?"

Teri Yuan: I think that it's innate in us to actually treat each other with respect when we're young, when we're babies. Babies have been known in experiments to really show compassion to other living animals, to living beings, whether it's animals or other people that have been hurt. And so I think what happens is over a time, society sends us messages that create a hierarchy of who deserves more respect or less respect. Or no respect. And those messages then become ingrained in us and reinforced and even if we may not innately believe it, we might not have started out believing it, over time we are rewarded for reinforcing those messages based on who we are.

Mike Domitrz: Can you give us an example, Teri, of where that happens in society?

Teri Yuan: So I think in my most recent podcast for example, I talk about the construction of gender. I think it's a myth for people to think that feminism is only for women and that it's not for men. And people don't recognize that feminism is about equality of all genders, right? And men think that feminism is something that's a threat to their place in society but the issue is because when we're young we're taught that being a boy means being strong and being powerful and exerting our strength, potentially through violence. Through domination. Those are aspects of our being that may not be natural and yet we are going to be rewarded or punished for not being able to adhere to those norms.

Teri Yuan: And so people, boys, young boys who might be not interested in sports or not watch, whatever, the NFL. Might be interested in music, you know, the stereotypes of being interested in drama or creative arts. Those are stigmas that we create for our young boys for not really expressing themselves and exploring their creativity and their passions in a different way than what and how society deems is worthy.

Teri Yuan: And so what happens is over time those boys potentially could be targets of bullying. They could not be encouraged by their parents or other members of society to really explore those innate aspects of who they are and what they're interested in. And then as they start repressing those aspects of themselves, it creates an imbalance that may lead to potential health risks, they might seek coping mechanisms that are unhealthy that might lead to addiction. Or maybe exerting their frustration in an unhealthy way in their relationships.

Teri Yuan: And so that's an example where equality and feminism actually benefits all of us. Women as well as men. And if we can see that and how the system of male supremacy is actually there to control all of us, then I think that's something that can actually garner more desire and the ability to learn how to communicate with each other respectfully.

Mike Domitrz: Yeah there was a video recently of, if I remember it was four or five people, most were actors or performers in Hollywood. One was not, Tony Porter and they're around a dinner table having a conversation, and it was released around the world, and it went viral. People could look it up, I don't remember the exact name of it. But Tony Porter's in it, if they want to look that up.

Mike Domitrz: And it's men talking about all the different aspects of sexual violence, society and how we treat respect. But they also talk about the pressures they felt as men growing up. That speak 100 percent to what you're saying right there. That this masculinity that I was supposed to be whether it fit me or not. And how dangerous that can be. And so you do the Engendered Podcast, you're the host of that. You facilitate that conversation.

Mike Domitrz: When it comes to gender specifically, what do you think is the biggest misunderstanding that's out there?

Teri Yuan: The biggest misunderstanding is that identity in general of all aspects is a binary. That gender is a binary. And that is has to be either or, you're either male or a female. And there are traits that are specific to being, the same trait can exist in both genders, and it could be perceived in different ways. Usually positively, like being assertive can be positive for men. And if you're assertive as a woman, then you could be seen as dominating. You know, as a supervisor, as a manager.

Teri Yuan: And so there's a value laid in dichotomy, you know, binary that cuts it in two. And it's really a continuum so I think that's the biggest myth. That gender is a continuum, race is a continuum.

Mike Domitrz: So I want to pause there because a lot of people push back on this part of the conversation which is, how is it a continuum if, and I'm not asking as myself, I'm saying this is what we have as the pushback. You know, you hear what I'm about to say all the time.

Teri Yuan: Sure.

Mike Domitrz: "If somebody is born biologically with a penis and this person over here is born biologically with a vagina, how is there a continuum." "The penis is the male, the vagina's the female" is what we often hear as pushback.

Teri Yuan: Well first of all, biology itself or how it's expressed and its possibilities, aren't necessarily binary as well. So for example, the question of just genitalia, you know lots of babies are born without the full expressed genitalia that we attribute to being a boy or a girl. Or the hormonal corresponding, hormones.

Teri Yuan: And as you grow older, for example as a woman, if you were to get a hysterectomy, taking away your reproductive organs, does that make you no longer a woman? I mean obvioulsy culturally, society actually deems that's the case. And attaches certain value to women who can no longer bear children.

Teri Yuan: But what if you were like, you were born that way? From the beginning. Does that make you less of a woman? Because it's not the vagina or the, that's not the reproductive organ. It's really everything else, the uterus and the fallopian tubes, etcetera. Right?

Mike Domitrz: Well let's say somebody makes that argument then. "Okay, if the body has the reproductive possibilities, that's' a female. If the body does not have the reproductive capabilities, that's a male." Let's say somebody makes that argument, now what's the discussion?

Teri Yuan: People don't necessarily identify with their reproductive capabilities. You know, there could be women who don't want to have children, does that make them less of a woman? You know because does that make them not a woman because they choose not to express the full potential of their reproductive organs?

Teri Yuan: And similarly a man may have the desire to give birth but that doesn't mean that he can and does it make him a woman? And so biology is also different from sexual desire and your identity. So one can identify male or female right? And be born in a different body. Which is what transgender is.

Teri Yuan: But then you can also have different sexual desires so regardless of whether you're a male or female embodied, you may have an attraction to male or female traits or people. And so there's so many layers of gender identity that I think the whole thing is a continuum. Even if people who are biologically expressed very much one or the other, it doesn't mean that they have fully those traits that we have identified as belonging to those genders.

Mike Domitrz: I think we [inaudible 00:10:53] so brilliant in that. Why do we think that genitalia is the marker? Or why do we think that reproductive parts are the, actual biological body parts are the marker? What if the marker is the brain? And this is where people can get confused, and they go, "Well wait, if you're born with this body, but your brain's saying this, then you need to convert to your body."

Mike Domitrz: As if the brain's not as important, like they choose the judgment of which is happening here. The chemical, what they'll say, "imbalance," right. The chemical imbalance versus the just a different chemistry than they have.

Mike Domitrz: But so they say the body, the physical being must be what you convert to which is interesting to go, "Well what about the heart, the soul, and the brain. We have to ignore all those and make them something they don't fit in." Is what you're saying, correct?

Teri Yuan: Exactly. Yeah and ultimately it does have to do with the brain. And so if our brain is the organ that controls all of these things and the expression of all of them, our brain is not gendered. And so what does it really matter? You know. And I think the main issue is not trying to reinforce these sort of myths of identity in gender but to really go beyond it and to come to a place of acceptance and back to your show, respect. That people can choose to express themselves and define themselves any way they'd like.

Teri Yuan: And it's not just gender, it's with race or whatever, you know. National identity, citizenship, you know, etcetera. So that's obvioulsy one of the common challenges that we have in our day politically, right?

Mike Domitrz: Right, absolutely. And when it comes to gender, some people who may be listening, going, "Are you implying there's more than two genders?" Is a question and I've had that in audiences when I say, "Hey, inclusive means all genders." And people go, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. All? You mean there's more than two?"

Mike Domitrz: So can you explain that? Are there more than two? Are they defined or because there's a spectrum when we say all, we're leaving the possibility open?

Teri Yuan: I am not an expert on being able to sort of, I'm not an LGBTQIA expert, so I also want to say that beyond male and female, there's also intersex and obvioulsy asexual. And so how you express your gender, it's the performance of the basically.

Teri Yuan: It could be the the physical performance in terms of how you dress, it could be gestures, it could be the things that you like in your sort of day to day activities, that you enjoy doing and how those are associated to particular genders. But ultimately the combination of those three things really determines what your gender identity is. And that's why so many people, even who are heterosexual, they might now consider using the "they/them" pronoun because they're tired of being pushed in this box and trying to fit in.

Mike Domitrz: So let's go there because for some people listening, they'll go, "What, did you just say the "they/them" pronoun?" Now for those of us who work in the field, if you work in college campuses, you're aware of what we're discussing right now. Or you may be aware of what we're discussing. Which is when somebody meets someone, they may say, "By what pronoun do you go by?" Or, "I go by this pronoun." And that way people will sit there and go, you know you get the stereotypical, "Is it a "he" or "she?"

Mike Domitrz: Which is horrible statement because it's an "it." Right? Versus our "they." Do they identify as a "he" or "she" or "they?" They might identify as they. And people say, "Well why is this?" It allows somebody to be respected in the way they see themselves, it the way that they know themselves to be true of.

Mike Domitrz: So this is not uncommon that somebody says, "Well how do you identify?" So for my case, it would be a "he/him" because that's how I identify. But somebody else could be a "her," could be a "they," could be all different possibilities but it's just saying, "How do I see myself."

Mike Domitrz: It allows people to be treated right from the start within their identity, is that correct?

Teri Yuan: Yes. And I think it's similar to when the Ms. Phrase came out, was it in the 70s? I can't even remember, right, when Ms. Magazine came out, and it was a response to, it was basically Mr. or Mrs. You could only be those two. Or Miss, I guess. So you had Mrs. or Miss. And you were either married or unmarried. And there was nothing in between, and I think-

Mike Domitrz: And yet Mr. was always consistent. And that was the argument that, "Hey how come the person that identifies as the male can always be treated the same with Mr.

Mike Domitrz: But the woman has to be identified by marriage or not," right.

Teri Yuan: Right, right. And then based on whether you're a Miss or a Mrs and it actually helps people calibrate their treatment of you. Right? Which why should that be the case, it should be uniform regardless of your marital status.

Teri Yuan: And similarly with they/them, I think what it represents to me is the plurality of identity. You don't want to be boxed into, again, a "she" or "he." And for me especially as someone with, who's Asian American, who's a woman, who has all these other identities that I'm not going to share with you right now. But those other identities aren't necessarily visible and being able to be called they or them, it elevates those other identities in a way that one word and gender would not.

Mike Domitrz: Do you think we're moving to the place or do you think it would be more ideal if we move to the place where we're removing gender from the conversation?

Teri Yuan: Well I mean I think the goal of equality itself is eventually to make it irrelevant, what you're fighting for, once you get there, right? I definitely don't think we're there at all. We're at the beginning stages of opening up the conversation, and I think we can both recognize from the national climate and how polarized we are that it's going to be a struggle. But I think one of the benefits of having your podcast and this conversation is hopefully to bring other people, regardless of their political affiliations, you know, where they grew up and all the elements that make up their identity that come and see that there are different ideas and opportunities for personal growth.

Teri Yuan: And recognizing why people feel certain words are offensive or not, or more offensive or less offensive. And the historical implications of it is something that can really open up dialogue for getting to know each other and hopefully being more compassionate and understanding.

Mike Domitrz: Yeah I think it's a really important discussion for people to have. If somebody's listening right now and let's say you're pushing back going, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, you're going against genetics." And actually what we're saying is we're incorporating more genetics. We're taking the genetics of the brain, the chemistry, everything not just the pure physical genetics that people tend to refer to. But if somebody's pushing back right now, I just want to ask you to pause and think, "Why do you need them in the box? Why do you need each of us to fit into a drawer?"

Mike Domitrz: Because I know that history will tell you, "Because I can then know where my world is. This is where I learned my world is, and you're saying my world is different. And we don't like change. So let me just put people back in the box."

Mike Domitrz: But what value is there in putting people in a box, what value is there in straight categorization of people. It actually places some value higher than others when we do that. It's just a matter of fact. The moment you categorize, that means certain categories are different than others. And therefore we tend to treat differently.

Mike Domitrz: So I just throw that out to someone listening right now going, if you're struggling with this, just think why does it matter to you that Jordan identifies this way. Or that Chris identifies this way. And yes, I'm being intentional about the names I chose because then people want to go, "Which are you talking about?" That's the point. Why does that matter if Chris or Jordan are brilliant, if Chris or Jordan bring value to this world, why do you need to know what category they have to fit in in this one area?

Mike Domitrz: That's sort of what we're saying here, correct?

Teri Yuan: Yeah. I mean I think, you know, it's too long for our discussion, for us to get into now. But I think historically our country was built on basically a colonialist mentality that hasn't really been addressed. And so all of the historical repercussions of white washing and erasing that part of our historical identity has in some ways both rendered it invisible to all of us. Whether it's whatever race or gender we are, we are unaware of our full history.

Teri Yuan: And yet at the same time because it's rendered it invisible, we've also had no place to have a discussion for it. And so what it's done is it's created a system where people are trying to connect with one another based on superficial identity constructs, rather than on more deep meaningful values. And the reason people try to put other people in a box is because they crave connection, they crave community. They want to find their tribe.

Teri Yuan: And they think that their tribe is based on these things of, "Oh we like to," I'm going to use the sports analogy again, right? "We like to watch the Super Bowl together and have a tailgate," you know, or whatever. But that's just an activity, why do you like that activity? You like it because there's community, there's over time you've built a set of rituals that people engage in, so it's predictive.

Teri Yuan: You know that every, I don't know football so well, but every year there's a football season that you can rely on that you could always be able to connect with other people and see. Similarly, people go to church but if we can like look at all of these cultural institutions. And see them as just that, you know, they're just cultural institutions, and peel away the onion to get to who we are as core people, then we don't need to have those sort of artifices to connect with one another.

Teri Yuan: We can connect with one another on a deeper level. You know, I care about getting to know you because you and I share the value of treating people with respect and with equality. And that matters to me more than what you do on your weekend or after work, right? And there's a commonality there.

Mike Domitrz: Yeah and that's what I always find intriguing. Every now and then I'll meet someone who says, "Mike, hey, one of your best friends is so polar opposite you politically, I don't get that." And I think that's because they're only seeing the political aspect not all the other aspects I see in that person.

Mike Domitrz: And that that person brings to this world. And that's true on so many levels. Whether it be gender, sexual orientation, racial, cultural. That when we actually drop the "I identify this way," and walk out as an, "I always have to be connecting with my same identity," I don't have the chance to learn about other people.

Mike Domitrz: I don't have the chance to connect on the multiple layers that we are as human beings. And so the more that we're able to drop the, as you said, the institutions, the cultural institutions and just be able to connect on a sincere one on one level. Like, "Hey, what drives you? What inspires you? What angers you?" And be able to have those conversations where real connection happens. It's so powerful.

Teri Yuan: Yeah. How do you want to see the world?

Mike Domitrz: Yeah. And identifying that way. Right? Like identifying yourself as a loving person. Well see, because if you say, "Well I'm a loving person but those people don't belong," that doesn't sound loving. So are you identifying yourself as a loving person because do your actions then back that up. Now that doesn't mean that I'm not going to be loving to those people who say they don't, they aren't loving because I believe I'm a loving person, I have to be loving to all people.

Mike Domitrz: I'm just going to be aware of what energy I let into my life. What I intentionally spend time with energy wise.

Teri Yuan: Yeah and I think one of the challenges that we have today that obvioulsy the 2016 election has really exposed, is that people are more willing to remain in their tribe and remain in their community even at the expense of what the values of those communities espouse. Or purportedly espouse.

Teri Yuan: And to me, that's very disappointing because there's so much more that they're missing out on. And it's kind of like holding on so dearly, there's also research and I'm sure you've seen these articles recently around how, I don't know if it was just white Americans. But I think it was white Americans who really seek community and sort of defending their white privilege. You know, they're more willing to accept authoritarian rule and they're more willing to give up democratic principles and benefits in their society.

Teri Yuan: And that could mean access to facts and access to true values of kindness and empathy and compassion and treating people with equality even though all their lives, they have been engaging in at least in rhetoric, in promoting those values. But now they're willing to give it up because their white privilege is at risk.

Teri Yuan: So that's, I think, something that we need to really talk about.

Mike Domitrz: Personally I don't know that specific research. That's interesting because you do see it on all, and we do see it on all sides. We see grouping occurring on all sides that say, "Lockdown over here. I'm going to go this way and you're over there and now we're against each other." And neither make sense. Because neither are about love, respect, it's all about my way or the highway which is dangerous when extremes do that.

Mike Domitrz: And so, I do not want to imply in any way that one side here is less culpable for their actions than they are. So that's really important but I think it's important for all of us to step back and go, "Where am I potentially lacking living with respect by this choice I'm making?"

Mike Domitrz: I think that's an important question.

Teri Yuan: Well Mike, I do want to address that point because I think that two often that one of my complaints about the media, mainstream media, is that they're constantly putting forth a false equivalence.

Mike Domitrz: Right.

Teri Yuan: And I do feel that in some ways, that analogy may be so. Because when someone is doing something, this happens within gender based violence, that community, the violence against women community. Like people, when someone does something wrong, if someone is abusive to their partner and their partner is acting in self defense and happens to use violence in self defense as a response, they are not equally culpable. You know?

Teri Yuan: So when you are resisting and trying to defend yourself, that is not the same as the person who actually initiated it and what the intention of that person was. And in the eyes of the law, they both may be treated equally because they both engaged in, based on statutes of assault, they may be actually treated the same way. And so I think similarly when people are trying to sort of erase or minimize our democratic ideals of freedom and equality and the value of fact, and you know, all of our first amendment rights. And others are responding in defense of those, which are the founding principles of our country.

Teri Yuan: They are not the same thing.

Mike Domitrz: No I'm so glad you brought this up because that's what I was trying to reference. You did it much better than I did. Which is that false equivalency discussion. Which is, yeah that's what we have to be careful of. Not doing that. And I think it's so important. I think we need to have both conversations.

Mike Domitrz: Be able to say there's problems on both sides politically right now. In grouping and how people are behaving in groups at times. Especially extreme sides. But at the same time that also means, I should say and at the same time, that does not mean that's okay to use false equivalencies. And that's why I think it's brilliant, the example you gave.

Mike Domitrz: That defense from the person in power is different than the person in power causing, starting the harm in the first place. There is a huge difference there.

Teri Yuan: Yeah and I think also what happens is, I mean you see these in memes on Twitter all the time with regard to responses to the administration. The best example that I give is someone causes a problem, let's just say the migrant crisis and then they try to minimally address it but not really fix it. And then all of a sudden they get credit for it.

Teri Yuan: So it's basically like giving an arsonist credit for trying to put out the fire but not successfully but out the fire that they started. So why are we giving that person credit for something that they actually created but then never fixed.

Teri Yuan: And so that's kind of the situation that happens again and again, that I see. And I think it's important to be able to distinguish the person who's trying to put it out because they didn't start it and they're trying to put it out and save that house. Versus the person who's trying to put it out because they realize that people are upset at them for starting that fire and they want to get into everybody's good graces again.

Mike Domitrz: That's brilliant. Thank you so much for sharing that. You have three books you recommend. One's Feminist Theory from Margin to Center by Bell Hooks. Another one is Love and War by Tom Digby. And the last one is You're More Powerful than You Think by Eric Liu.

Mike Domitrz: We're going to have all of those links for our listeners and viewers to be able to find at respectpodcast.com. We'll also have that obvioulsy in the show notes if you're listening on iTunes. We'll have that available for everybody.

Mike Domitrz: Teri, I want to thank you so much for sharing your insights, and your brilliance today.

Teri Yuan: Thank you so much Mike for having me.

Mike Domitrz: Absolutely. For everyone listening remember you can join the conversation on Facebook in our Facebook discussion group which is the RESPECT Podcast Discussion Group.

Mike Domitrz: Look that up on Facebook, join the conversations, after each episode I typically throw a question out so we can all keep the conversation going. And of course, you'll also on our show, respectpodcast.com, learn all about Teri, find out how to connect with Teri and all of the links.

Mike Domitrz: Thank you for joining us for this episode of the RESPECT Podcast. Which was sponsored by the Date Safe Project at datesafeproject.org. And remember, you can always find me at mikespeaks.com.

Darcy Luoma, Master Certified Coach, shares her powerful formula of "Thoughtfully Fit" in this interview. Being thoughtfully fit can revolutionize who we live with respect for ourselves and others - while maximizing our gifts that we share with the world.

* You are invited to join our community and conversations about each episode on FaceBook at https://www.facebook.com/MutuallyAmazingPodcast and join us on Twitter @CenterRespect or visit our website at http://www.MutuallyAmazingPodcast.com**

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BIO of Darcy Luoma: Darcy Luoma is a Master Certified Coach (MCC), dynamic facilitator, and professional speaker. She has her Masters of Science in Organization Development from Pepperdine University, where her thesis research showed profound results that life coaching significantly increases overall life satisfaction and professional growth. Darcy served for 12 years as the Director of U.S. Senator Herb Kohl's office. She is now the owner and president of Darcy Luoma Coaching & Consulting, LLC, which focuses on creating high-performing people and teams. She is thrilled to have been voted Madison's favorite life coach multiple times! Darcy balances her thriving business with raising her two energetic daughters, adventure travel, and competing in triathlons. Links to Darcy: www.darcyluoma.com facebook.com/darcyluoma https://www.instagram.com/darcyluomacoaching/ https://twitter.com/DarcyLuoma https://www.linkedin.com/in/darcyluoma/ Books Darcy Recommends: Rising Strong by Brene Brown (or any of her books really!) The One Thing, Gary Keller Essentialism by Greg McKeown The Art of Powerful Questions by Eric Vogt READ THE FULL TRANSCRIPTION of the EPISODE HERE (or download the pdf):

**IMPORTANT: This podcast episode was transcribed by a 3rd party service and so errors can occur throughout the following pages:

Mike: Welcome to The Respect podcast. I'm your host Mike Domitrz from MikeSpeaks.com where we help organizations of all sizes, educational institutions and the US military create a culture of respect, and respect is exactly what we discuss on this show, so let's get started.

Mike: This week I am super excited to have on a friend of mine, Darcy Luoma, who's a master certified coach, dynamic facilitator and professional speaker. She's with us today to discuss her model Thoughtfully Fit, and I just love that name, to help you be more thoughtful in every aspect of your life.

Mike: Darcy, thank you so much for joining us.

Darcy: Hey, Mike, it's so good to be with you. Thanks for the invitation.

Mike: Oh, absolutely. Now, Darcy, can you give a little background on your personal story, 'cause you have an amazing journey, and so you can start with what you were doing in your life before a certain shock hit you that sort of put everything in new perspective.

Darcy: Yeah, so I was working for US Senator Herb Kohl as a director of his Madison office for 12 years, and when he announced he was not going to be seeking re-election, he was going to be retiring, I hired a coach to help me figure out what was next, and it totally changed the trajectory of my career from being in politics and non-profit education sector to launching my full-time business doing coaching and speaking and consulting.

Darcy: I launched that in January of 2013 and was really excited to jump into that. It was also pretty scary because I was the sole breadwinner for a family of four. My husband, at the time, stayed home full-time with our daughters and took care of everything on the home front, and we've had some real adversity in the last couple of years in my life that I've had to put this whole model, Thoughtfully Fit, to the test to be able to overcome some real obstacles that were thrown my way.

Darcy: Business, luckily, was flourishing, but on the personal front my marriage was falling apart. I was really blindsided by that and caught off guard by some of the things that my husband was doing and it required me to really try to figure out how to keep moving forward, given that everything I thought I knew was being questioned.

Darcy: My husband really was living a double life that I didn't realize, and all of a sudden I found myself as a single parent needing to learn how to run a household in ways that I had never needed to do before. I mean, the simplest things. Learning how to run my washing machine and what kind of gas the snowboard took and all these things, because I went from having a full-time stay-at-home dad to being a full-time single parent with 100% custody.

Mike: And through this, you had already set up the Thoughtfully Fit profile right before this happened. You were launching the model, you were writing it, you were setting it all up, and then this happens and suddenly you have to live Thoughtfully Fit.

Mike: Now, did it happen that quickly for you? And we're going to get into what Thoughtfully Fit is in a little bit for all of our listeners, but did you immediately go, "I need to live now what I worked," or did that become part of the process?

Darcy: Yes to both. Yeah, you're right on. So I'd been researching and developing this model for a couple of years, and this Saturday in March my colleague and I sat down and really it all came together. We had flip charts all over and Post-Its and we're like, "Yes, this is it." It was four days later that my life blew up.

Darcy: I didn't realize it at the time just how valuable and essential being Thoughtfully Fit would be. I didn't realize that I was now thrown into the biggest pilot project, pilot testing of this model. But in reality it's what helped me to get through the adversity and the dissolution of my marriage and my life as I knew it by putting these principles to test that I had been researching and developing for so long. All of a sudden, now, I got to live it.

Darcy: It was critical in helping me get through to the other side where I am now, really finding the new normal, and luckily in a place that I feel like business is thriving and flourishing. But that was not really the case for much of that period when I was going through those tough days and weeks and months.

Mike: Let's dive into it. What is Thoughtfully Fit?

Darcy: Thoughtfully Fit is a leadership model, and in a nutshell I've been coaching and consulting and doing organization development with organizations and teams and leaders for decades. I started to notice that there were some themes that came up over and over and over again, and what gets in the way of really having a life you love, of having success, having fulfillment and inner peace. I started to look at what were the themes, and we found that there were six themes and obstacles that get in the way of people really living the life they want and having the fulfillment that they want. And three of those themes are internal, and three are external.

Darcy: Now, if you look up the definition of thoughtful in the dictionary, there's two definitions, interestingly. There's the internal definition, which is really being mindful and intentional. So you can even think about that, Mike. You get a email asking if you want to be on the new committee, and before responding you really pause to be thoughtful. Like, "Huh, do I have space for this? Does this align with what I want? Is this going to be bring me closer to the work-life balance I'm looking for or my passion?" And then responding thoughtfully, intentionally.

Darcy: The external definition, the second definition [crosstalk 00:06:12]

Mike: Can we pause on that one? I want to just pause on that one because I think that's really powerful. I think you can sometimes be even more deliberately obvious that we don't even catch the need to pause.

Mike: For instance, we had an email come in recently where somebody said, "Hey ..." And we get this in my line of work. "Hey, you're doing this program, and I heard you're going to be talking to my son or my daughter. Are you going to say A, B, C and D, 'cause we're hoping you're going to say X, Y and Z, and here's why, blah blah blah." And your gut's like, "There's no way I'm saying X, Y and Z. Do they not understand the whole topic?" Like, you're fired up and you want to email back, like, "That is not what we do."

Mike: And then you take a breath and you're like, "That's not going to accomplish anything here at all. At all. So let's just take a breath and email back that, hey, we appreciate you reaching out, here's what we do and the time we have with those students, and we look forward to talking with the students.

Mike: You don't need to respond to everything. That's taking a moment to be thoughtful, and that's something we can all do. We can all want to fire back sometimes, 'cause somebody triggers us or offends us. Is that the same thing as what you're referring to, just taking that moment to pause?

Darcy: It is, and your example's fabulous, Mike, because that example really encompasses both the internal and the external. So internally you're pausing to think about how do I want to respond to this? Externally you're doing it in a way that the message can be received, not getting defensive, not firing back, and that is the second definition being thoughtful. It's being considerate of the other person, right? So your example where instead of saying, "Of course we're not going to say that," or "That's not the training." You just said, "Hey, thanks for your email. We appreciate that. And here's actually what we do cover." Very thoughtful.

Darcy: So Thoughtfully Fit, it's about how to be thoughtful in every action, interaction and reaction, whether it's with yourself pausing to think about how you want to show up and then acting from that place, or with others.

Mike: What I love that you also mentioned that it's to pause on decisions not just reactions, whether we respond versus react. But do I want this energy in my life? Do I want this responsibility in my life? Like, you have an example of, do I want to join this committee? Or do I want to get involved with this activity?

Mike: I think sometimes that's even especially hard when our friends are involved and they're asking us. Like, "Hey, do you want to be on this team with me?" And you like being with your friends but you don't have the capacity right now, the energy capacity to do that, and sometimes we say yes 'cause we don't want to disappoint our friends, and we love being with our friends, but we're going to regret that yes if we don't take a moment to pause and say, "Do I have the mental and energy capacity right now for that in my life?"

Darcy: Well, you're right on. And what you said is key, because if you're not thoughtful in how you respond, it creates regrets, it create resentments, it creates conflict, and so it's all about slowing down.

Darcy: Thoughtfully Fit is a play and a metaphor on being physically fit, and in order to be physically fit you need to train and practice. You can't just wake up tomorrow and decide I'm going to be fit. I'm going to run a marathon today. You have to really practice. And in the same way if you want to be thoughtful in all your actions, it does take intention, it takes practice, it takes training so that you don't have regrets and resentments.

Mike: Yeah, and you talk about that if we were training physically. And you're an athlete, you train for triathlons. You have to really work on your core, no matter what. Just about all athletes want to have a strong core, and you talk about this in your work. So when it comes to the core of Thoughtfully Fit, how can somebody build up their mental core?

Darcy: Yeah, yeah, that's great. And you're right on. So, physically fit, you got a strong core, everything's easier or you're less likely to get injured. With Thoughtfully Fit, the core is to pause, think, and act. And repeat.

Darcy: When you were talking earlier about the pause, many of us don't pause and think, we just act. So we get that invitation: can you be on this committee? Thursday night is the first meeting. You look at your calendar, your calendar's open, you reply yes, you put it in your calendar, and all of a sudden Thursday night comes and it's five o'clock. You're excited to go home because you're exhausted, you had a long week, and all of a sudden your calendar pops up that you've got to go to this committee, and you're like, "Oh, dang it. Why did I do that?" Well likely because you didn't slow down to pause and really think before acting.

Darcy: When you build your Thoughtfully Fit core, you don't just act or react, you pause. Give yourself some time to think. And the think always involves asking questions. Asking thoughtful questions of yourself: is this where I want to be spending my time? What do I really want? And then also thoughtful questions of others if it's in a relationship with someone else, instead of just ...

PART 1 OF 3 ENDS [00:11:04]

Darcy: ... Questions of others, if it's in a relationship with someone else instead of just pounding, and jumping in, or responding, or reacting, or giving advice, or fixing. "What is it? I'm sensing there's some frustration here? What are you frustrated about? What do you want from this relationship?"

Darcy: Then you act from that place with the new awareness you have from pausing, and thinking, and asking those thoughtful questions. That's the core.

Mike: What I love about what you're sharing here, you're a coach, you are very open about your trying to help other people coach themselves. Some people go, "Why would a coach do that? They want the business, they want people to hire them as a coach."

Mike: What you're trying to create here is a self-guided ability to help ourselves coach ourselves. Is that correct?

Darcy: That's absolutely right. How it happened, the spark, many years ago I ran into a client at the grocery store. She said, "Oh my gosh Darcy, I have to thank you. I was going to call you a couple months ago because I was stuck." She was a former client, we weren't currently coaching.

Darcy: She said, "I was going to call you because I was stuck and I just didn't know what to do. Then I paused and I thought, 'Wait a minute, what would Darcy do?' She would ask me some questions. She would ask me what do I really want and what's getting in the way of that? What are the obstacles and how can I overcome those obstacles?"

Darcy: She said, "I coached myself and I want to say thank you because you gave me the capacity to coach myself." That's where it dawned on me that there are skills, there are an ability for people to be more thoughtful in their lives by slowing down, building their core. To pause, think, ask yourself those questions, and then act from that place of new awareness.

Mike: How do you get better at asking the right questions or creating more possibilities in your questions? I can imagine some people will fall into the trap of asking the same question all the time. That's going to become a limiting thought process.

Darcy: Yes. I don't know if you want some really concrete tips, I do whole trainings on how to ask thoughtful questions. I'll give you and your listeners some really concrete tips.

Darcy: Open ended questions are more powerful than close ended. Instead of a yes/no question like, "Should I go to this meeting or not?", it's a black and white yes or no; you ask open-ended questions that start with what or how. "What would be the value of my going? What will be the cost? How might I benefit this cause without ruining my work-life balance?"

Darcy: Asking open-ended questions, what or how questions, can create more awareness. It's always when you have more awareness, you have access to different actions. Instead of firing off, "Yes, I'll be there Thursday night", you say, "You know, I love this organization that's non-profit. I can't serve on the board or the fundraising committee right now, but I would love to write a check. I've got a friend who actually expressed interest in doing more volunteer work, I'd love to connect you with them if you're interested."

Darcy: You can still get to the core essence of what you want out of that interaction, that situation to make an impact with an organization you love, without having to jeopardize your time, your work-life balance, or make a reactive decision in the moment.

Mike: I think this is so important because I know people that will talk about being on boards, non-profits or trying to help, the amount of anal detail that's involved drives them nuts. I say, "Why don't you give it another way? For instance, if that drives you nuts and you don't enjoy it, then why not find a way to give to the organization in a way that you enjoy sharing your gifts and your skills that you're meant to share in this world."

Mike: That might mean you don't serve on a board, but maybe you speak at their chapters. Maybe you teach them how to make their other volunteers more productive at what they do, maybe you teach a skillset. That could be more valuable than ever being on the board.

Darcy: Yes. Not only can it be more valuable, if it's honoring the way in which you want to be of service and give, you're going to have more passion and more energy instead of building up more resentment where every month, "Oh God, I have to go to this meeting."

Darcy: Then the way you're showing up, even if you think you're self-managing, chances are if you're feeling resentful for having said yes to something in a form that doesn't bring you joy and passion; it's probably having a negative impact in that energy in that room versus finding a way to serve that brings you joy and can be that win/win.

Darcy: That takes a level of degree of thoughtfulness to identify and encourage, to be able to say, "Here's how I would love to serve and contribute to this mission and this organization."

Mike: Love it. You mention there's six elements here, what are all six here?

Darcy: Yes. Stillness, I hear all the time from people say, "Oh, I don't have time to think, I just want more space." That's the first obstacle that gets in the way. The next one is strength. Strength is all about being able to consciously choose how you want to show up in every situation instead of being on default or on autopilot mode.

Mike: Let's pause on each one just because I want to really get our listeners thinking about where they have stillness in their life. I know people that say, "I have stillness, I won't do work", but then they're on social media. Real stillness means, "I'm not putting anything in my brain. I'm allowing the brain to be still and be almost an empty void."

Mike: Of course thoughts come in, that's normal. That's what you're referring to, a true stillness?

Darcy: Absolutely. It's like quieting the mind and not filling it with social media, with Netflix. Stillness can come in different forms to quiet the mind. Some people like to go for a walk in nature, some people like to cut vegetables. It doesn't mean that you have to be sitting still, but your mind, giving yourself the ability to have a quiet mind to be able to process, reflect, think.

Mike: I really challenge all of our listeners right now. I used to struggle with this, and we all do on certain days, given moments. I used to think, "20 minutes or 15 minutes of stillness", start with two, start with three.

Mike: I used to set my phone next to me and the timer, and put it to 20 minutes, and just sit there. Whatever thoughts come, come and and go, you just let them go. It's amazing if you say, "I'm going to challenge myself to 20 minutes or 10 minutes", you'll do it. You'll find a way to do it.

Mike: It's almost like, "Hey, I can do this. I'm going to challenge myself to have this stillness." Once you do it you realize, "All right, I am capable of this." Some people just don't think they're capable of it.

Darcy: Yes. I don't know Mike, have you found then when you create that more stillness that your productivity and efficiency actually goes up?

Mike: Without a doubt. What happens in that stillness is while you're trying to quiet the mind, the mind is going through thoughts to allow it to be quiet. It's clearing the thoughts that are on the top of it right now.

Mike: That thought pops into your head and you have that thought there for a second, and then you let it move on. Maybe in moving on, a solution popped up at that time, even though that's not why you're being still.

Mike: When you come out of the stillness you feel like, "Okay, I know what I need to do. Even though that wasn't why I was doing that, I was just trying to create stillness." I find you can have really profound results in that stillness and the rest of your day.

Darcy: You're right on. I think for me I also struggled with this and I still do. I struggle with all of these. My fear was that I was going to be less productive and the exact opposite happened. I became more productive when I took time to quiet my mind, more thoughtful.

Mike: I love the quote that if somebody says to you, "I don't have 20 minutes. I'm so busy, I don't have 20 minutes." "That means you need to take 40." I love that it should be double. If I don't have an hour to meditate, well that means you need to take two because something's wrong. Not wrong, but something's out of balance because I don't want it to be a guilt or a shame thing.

Darcy: Yes, you got it.

Mike: Number two was strength.

Darcy: Yes, number two. The first three are the internal. These are how to be thoughtful with yourself. Strength is about choosing consciously how you want to show up in every situation. It takes strength to be able to have the courage to self manage, to leave that argument behind as you walk in the door to your family instead of being like, "Argh." To be able to have the courage and the strength to say no, a thoughtful no to honor yourself.

Darcy: Strength is a tough one if that muscle is not well developed. I say that because the more you do it, the easier it gets. Just like with physical fitness; the stronger you get, the easier it gets.

Mike: I think strength is at the heart of why I wanted this on the show. We're the respect podcast, and strength is the one area where people fail to respect themselves. When we believe in something or have a boundary and we don't stand for that, when we have the opportunity, I'm not talking when someone forces on to you.

Mike: I'm saying when we have a free and open opportunity to make a choice, and we don't exercise our choice to respect our boundaries, we're failing to stand strong for ourselves.

Darcy: Yes.

Mike: I think strength is so important because it's about standing for what we believe in, including ourselves.

Darcy: Absolutely. That's powerful when you can have the strength to stand for what you believe in, and to choose consciously how you want to show up in any situation. It has a positive impact.

Mike: Yes. Then we're at number three.

Darcy: Number three for the internal is endurance. This is all about being able to overcome obstacles, it's about embracing a growth mindset to be able to deal with adversity. Whatever life throws at you, to have the endurance to know that I can make it through this.

Mike: Absolutely. Number four?

Darcy: This is where we get into the external. Four, five and six are external, dealing with other people. First one is flexibility. This is all about stretching for acceptance of others just as they are. It's a stretch for many of us to say, "Gosh, I don't like how they're showing up" and try to change someone, or not want them to be the way they are.

Darcy: Flexibility is saying, "That's who they are, that's how they are. Can you just accept that? That is who that person is." If I can figure out how to change another person, I'd make a bazillion dollars. When I go to these workshops people say, "This is so good. How can I get my boss, or my spouse, or my brother to do this?"

Darcy: You can't, you just have to accept them for who they are. That's hard and it requires flexibility.

Mike: Or choose to not have those individuals in your life. If there's harm in that, if there's harm in that relationship, you don't have to accept it but you can just say goodbye to the relationship.

Darcy: Absolutely. That's where you would set a boundary and make a choice.

Mike: Yes, so important.

Darcy: Say no to the relationship or that's when you can step into the fifth one, which is balance. Balance is about achieving alignment in your relationships.

PART 2 OF 3 ENDS [00:22:04]

Darcy: ... So, balance is about achieving alignment in your relationships. And that's like looking for the win-win. It's about balancing what you want and need with what I want and need. Before you say goodbye to a relationship because you can't stretch to accept someone, you may step into balance and say, "Hey, here's what I need in a relationship that I'm not getting. What do you need, and how might we achieve better alignment and create a win-win in this relationship by looking for and trying to find balance?"

Mike: What I love about this is when I'm working with an organization, they think this is relationship talk, as in like marriage, and they don't realize no, this is colleague talk, like, "Hey, here's what I need to thrive in this role with our organization working with you. What do you need when you and I work together to thrive in this relationship?" All of these components can work in an intimate relationship, loving, sexual, intimate. It can also work in the workplace when they're approached respectfully and appropriately.

Darcy: Absolutely, and it shows up in both places, the need for these skills.

Mike: Yes.

Darcy: Yeah, if you have somebody in your colleague who's creative, innovative, big picture thinker, and you're an analyst. You like details, facts, and figures, and the two of you have to work together, they're could be some misalignment, some frustration, some conflict, and that's a perfect opportunity to step into balance and say, "Hey, what you bring to the table is really valuable, and it can be frustrating for me because I need some more facts and figures. How can we best work together to honor your style and mine? And if you do that, we'll get a better outcome."

Mike: Love it. And number six.

Darcy: Agility. And agility is all about being able to respond effectively when you're blindsided instead of reacting. So, if somebody comes at you, and you pick up the phone and they're screaming at you. They're upset. They come into your office. Being able to have agility to say, "Okay. I'm going to respond," and think about the dodge ball. The dodge ball's being thrown at you. Instead of just getting hit or dodging, you say, "Okay. I wonder if I want to slow this down and catch the ball and then respond. Do I want to throw it back? Do I want to call a time out? Do I want to call a truce? How do I want to respond in this moment when I'm feeling really blindsided?"

Mike: Love it. Thank you, Darcy, for sharing all six of those. We're on The Respect Podcast, and so where does respect play and integrate into the whole model of Thoughtfully Fit?

Darcy: As I was reflecting on the model and your podcast, and I love listening to your guests. I love the new Respect Podcast, Mike. It's fabulous.

Mike: Well, thank you.

Darcy: I was thinking, respect I think integrates in both the internal and external, having respect for yourself to be able to say, "This is a boundary that I want to set," or, "I want to create more stillness" and being able to respect yourself enough to make those conscious choices, and then certainly respect with others is all about being thoughtful. It's all about being considerate with another person, so I think respect shows up everywhere in this.

Mike: And where did you first learn about respect in your own life?

Darcy: Wow, that's a great question. I think the first thing that comes to mind is when I was young from my grandma, when I inadvertently didn't know I ... I mean, I won't go into the full story, but I made a mistake, and I didn't go back and make it right. She called me on it, and I had disrespected her and she had the courage to tell me, which I thought was incredible because I could've gone on without knowing it, and she said, "When you can respect another person," and she said, "this is a display of respect that I have for you in the relationship with you that I'm going to share with you that I felt disrespected." Holy cow, did I feel like crap, and what a gift she gave me to teach me. That's the first thing that comes to mind. That's a fabulous question, Mike.

Mike: Oh, I appreciate that. For you, you have your daughters?

Darcy: Yes.

Mike: So, what do you think is key as a parent instilling respect in their children?

Darcy: I think having the ability to self-reflect, being able ... going back to the pause, and to think in the moment. What's needed in this situation to be as respectful as possible, both respectful to myself, my boundaries, my wishes, my desires, and how can I be respectful to the other person, whatever the situation might be? And then, acting from that place. I think awareness is key, and always putting it through the lens of what's the most respectful way to honor my needs and the other person's needs to move forward with courage and compassion?

Mike: That's beautiful. You recommend three books. One of them is by an author that I absolutely love, and we spoke about on the show before. That's "Rising Strong" by Brene Brown, and you said really, any of Brene's books you love.

Darcy: Yes.

Mike: What about Brene's books for you does it, does really trigger in a positive, wonderful way?

Darcy: Well, one of the things I love about Brene is she has found this beautiful combination of telling personal, vulnerable stories and grounding them in research, and so it makes it come alive because the story is so real and so vulnerable, but then she comes back and says, "Here's the research behind it, and here's the application to your life."

Mike: Yeah, it's awesome that way. The second book is "The One Thing" by Gary Keller. What about that book?

Darcy: Yeah, that was just really came into my life at a time when I was starting to have too many yeses and too many things on my plate, and my business was growing, and I read "The One Thing," and it was laser focused. What is the one thing that I want to be focusing on right now? And I come back regularly to asking myself when I feel overwhelmed, "Okay, what's the one thing?" And that book was so powerful in its simplicity. That one and then another one I read around the same time was "Essentialism."

Mike: Ah, yes. Love that book. And so I'm going to add that to your list of books here in our show notes, "Essentialism."

Darcy: Yes. [crosstalk 00:28:10]

Mike: It is an awesome book. And you had one more. You had "The Art of Powerful Questions." Now, I can only imagine that's because it's all about asking ourselves the right questions or being open to possibilities of questions. Is that the reason that book?

Darcy: Yeah, yeah. It is, and because questions is the place where you can access new awareness, right? Being curious whether it's with yourself or being curious with another person. And so, how do you ask powerful questions? It's very different than asking a question like, "Well, what time of day was it and what were you wearing and what did he say?" Those are not powerful questions. Those are not thoughtful questions. It's about really trying to get to the essence and the heart and to create new awareness.

Mike: Darcy, if somebody wanted to participate, be able to dive into the Thoughtfully Fit model, is there somewhere they can go and really learn this and live it and dive into it?

Darcy: Yes, lots of ways, lots of free ways as well. My website darcyluoma.com-

Mike: Which [inaudible 00:29:06] in the show notes because your spelling is a little unique. You like me have some last name nobody can spell right.

Darcy: Yes, that's right.

Mike: So, for our listeners, if you don't see the show notes, it's Darcy which it sounds like Darcy. Luoma's L-U-O-M-A.

Darcy: Yes. And Darcy D-A-R-C-Y with a Y. And so we've got on there a whole section on Thoughtfully Fit. We've got a blog. Every week we put an article up that talks about how to be thoughtful in your life whether it's dealing with emotional intelligence or conflict or tough conversations. We also have Thoughtfully Fit Thursdays on Facebook. I go live every week where I'm talking about something that has come up with clients whether they're individual clients or teams or organizations that I'm working with where I'm sharing more. And then we also have Wednesday Workout which is a two or three-minute every week video that comes out on all my social media platforms, LinkedIn and Instagram and Facebook that gives you a focus for the week. If you want to be more Thoughtfully Fit, what's your workout for this week?

Mike: That's awesome. Our listeners, you get all those ways to really dive into this. Such a great system. Darcy, the work you're doing is so wonderful and what I love about having you on this show is you're a friend, and I know that your soul comes from such a wonderful space, so thank you so much for joining us.

Darcy: Thanks so much, Mike. It's really a pleasure to be here. I love what you're putting out in the world.

Mike: Well, thanks. For all of our listeners, you can join us on Facebook at The Respect Podcast discussion group where we throw up questions and people can engage with each other. We'd love it if you'd just subscribe to us on iTunes so you get it automatically every week.

Mike: Thank you for joining us for this episode The Respect Podcast which was sponsored by The Date Safe Project at datesafeproject.org. And remember, you can always find me at mikespeaks.com.

PART 3 OF 3 ENDS [00:30:54]

Stacey Hanke dives into the journey of gaining and maintaining influence throughout your life. Do you have it? Are you sure? Explore "Influence" and how respect plays a role. * You are invited to join our community and conversations about each episode on FaceBook at https://www.facebook.com/MutuallyAmazingPodcast and join us on Twitter @CenterRespect or visit our website at http://www.MutuallyAmazingPodcast.com** BIO of Stacy Hanke (pronounced Hun-key): Stacey Hanke is author of the book; Influence Redefined…Be the Leader You Were Meant to Be, Monday to Monday®. She is also co-author of the book;Yes You Can! Everything You Need From A To Z To Influence Others To Take Action. Stacey is founder of Stacey Hanke Inc. She has trained and presented to thousands to rid business leaders of bad body language habits and to choose words wisely in the financial industry to the healthcare industry to government and everyone in between. Her client list is vast from Coca-Cola, FedEx, Kohl's, United States Army, Navy and Air Force, McDonald's, Publicis Media, Nationwide, US Cellular, Pfizer, GE, General Mills and Abbvie. Her team works with Directors up to the C-Suite. In addition to her client list, she has been the Emcee for Tedx. She has inspired thousands as a featured guest on media outlets including; The New York Times, Forbes, Entrepreneur, Thrive, SmartMoney magazine, The Economist and Business Week. She is a Certified Speaking Professional—a valuable accreditation earned by less than 10% of speakers worldwide. LINKS: https://www.facebook.com/StaceyHankeInc?ref=hl https://twitter.com/StaceyHankeInc http://www.youtube.com/staceyhanke http//www.linkedin.com/in/staceyhanke Books Stacey Recommends: Real Leadership by John Addison Talk Like Ted by Carmine Gallo Mastering the Complex Sale by Jeff Thull READ THE FULL TRANSCRIPTION of the EPISODE HERE (or download the pdf):

**IMPORTANT: This podcast episode was transcribed by a 3rd party service and so errors can occur throughout the following pages:

Mike: Welcome to The RESPECT Podcast. I'm your host, Mike Domitrz, from mikespeaks.com, where we help organizations of all sizes, educational institutions and the US military create a culture of respect, and respect is exactly what we discuss in this show. So, let's get started. And welcome to this episode. We have a friend of mine, a very close friend, a really special, amazing person with a ... with just a brilliant mind and a cool energy source around her all the time. Stacey [inaudible 00:00:29] is the author of the book, Influence Redefined: Be the Leader You Were Meant to Be Monday to Monday, which ... such a brilliant statement, by the way. I love the "Monday to Monday" 'cause most people think Monday to Friday. Her team works with directors up to the C Suite for companies, including FedEx, General Mills, [inaudible 00:00:45], Nationwide, and Kohl's.

Mike: Stacey, thank you so much for joining us.

Stacey: Welcome. Thank you for the introduction. I don't know how I can top that.

Mike: Well, let's dive into that introduction for a second.

Stacey: Yeah.

Mike: Some people listening are going, "What's a C Suite?" So, will you explain what you mean by when you're working with a C Suite?

Stacey: Yeah. So, it's anyone from the CEO and their executive team.

Mike: Okay. So, the highest level of the organization. That's where you're working with people, and you deal a lot in influence. That's your expertise. That is your subject matter. How does influence and respect ... how do they ... do they have a role together? And, if so, what's that role?

Stacey: I was thinking about this before you and I hopped on this call because there's so many, to me, so many layers. So, I'm gonna just make it super simple to start, and then we can see how far we want to dive into it. When I look at influence, influence means, to me, is someone who really cares, puts in the work, the discipline, to make sure that their messages are clear, to make sure how, when they interact with someone, no matter if that's over the phone or in-person, they truly are designing a message that is important to what that listener's experience level is and knowledge level is with their topic. That's the message inside. The other side of influence, to me ... and this is ... I'm gonna get to where this respect ties to it. Is someone who really thinks through, "How does everyone experience me?" And that's all delivery. "Do I come across as I truly care, that I care about what is important to them, that I can build trust with them?"

Stacey: And when those two are not consistent and they start to collide, I think we start really not thinking about respecting people's time, respecting people's choices. I always say to our participants, "Even if you host a meeting, whatever that meeting looks like, that doesn't mean people have to listen to you." I think you have to do the work to respect that, A, they showed up, and, B, they cared enough to be there in your presence. You've got to respect their time, and that's where I see there's a lot of correlation with your topic and my topic on influence.

Mike: Yeah. And I think it's a struggle for people because influence is also ... authenticity's really important to it, right?

Stacey: Yeah. I think the authenticity ties to the delivery piece that you don't just turn on your personality, your energy level, that you're suddenly different than what you are day in and day out. That, to me, is where the authenticity comes into play.

Mike: And that's respecting your true expression.

Stacey: Yeah.

Mike: Your true self is the most authentic expression you can give to the world. If you're not giving that, you're holding back. You're not respecting your brilliance. You're not respecting your voice. You're not respecting what you have to give to the world.

Stacey: Yeah. So, you're taking it from a different angle, where, really, it is first about your own respect and then taking it to who you're trying to convince, who you're trying to influence, who you're trying to build trust, connect, and engage. I think there's the other piece to this, and this ties to the consistency. I've seen it many times with my clients, where I'll see them as a leader, them interacting with their team, and it seems that they're really putting in a lot of thought and care to that group. And then I'll overhear them in another conversation with someone who might be higher up than they are or the same level that they are, and suddenly, the conversation is different than what they just told their peers.

Mike: Do you think that happens because of fear? Do you think I talk to people differently out of fear? In other words, I talk to the same horizontal level in an organization and below as me-

Stacey: Yeah.

Mike: -'cause I don't have fear at that level, and I-

Stacey: I think-

Mike: Or maybe only below, right, in a hierarchy.

Stacey: Yeah.

Mike: But somebody at my level or above, I fear their judgment 'cause of how that can impact me getting back, higher up that ladder, so I'm not truly authentic [inaudible 00:04:32] myself out of a fear. Is that possible there?

Stacey: Yeah. And then I think it ties exactly what you were just starting to say. Then you start disrespecting your authenticity, which, to me, is the same thing as disrespecting your consistency, that people are guessing who shows up from conversation to conversation to conversation. And, to me, that ties all to respect. I mean, you and I both know. We ask ... we always work with our participants, asking them, "How do you want to come across every day of the week, no matter who it is? What are some adjectives that come to mind?" And believe it or not, as they're throwing out "credibility," "confidence," "knowledge," "authenticity" and I'm waiting for "trust ..." I'm waiting for it, waiting for it. And maybe one person will throw it out, and if they don't, I give it to them. And I always turn to them and say, "Every one of you should write that down because, let's face it, if people like you, they'll listen. That has no influence around it. When people start trusting you, they start respecting you." And that, to me, is where influence comes into play.

Mike: That's really powerful, and I've fallen guilty of it because I think, "Oh, I don't want to say the wrong thing," right. And so, I'm very aware of language because, in my line of work, the wrong word can actually do harm-

Stacey: Yeah.

Mike: -to survivors and to others, but what you can make the mistake of doing, then, is thinking, "I need to sensor all my language" versus "I just need to be me. I know that this over here could do harm. I'm not gonna say that. So, stop censoring everything I'm saying." And I think a lot of us in society do that. We censor ourselves because we're afraid the true us won't be accepted, and in doing that, we lose trust. To me, it's amazing. There are people that we will disagree with, vehemently, their values, but millions will follow them because they're consistent. They know that they're getting with that person. Politically, this is so true. There are people that follow certain politicians-

Stacey: Yeah.

Mike: -because they're so consistent. They can trust them even if they don't agree with all lot of what that person ... they'll ... "I can trust them. I can trust that person." And so, I think what you're saying is so true, and we all forget about, one, the consistency. And those people are willing to say what needs to be said in their mind. I'm not saying it's the right thing to say, at all-

Stacey: Right.

Mike: -but what they believe needs to be said, they say it, and they're consistent about that.

Stacey: And this is the part ... if anyone right now is watching this and they're thinking, "Oh, come on. It's common sense. I know that." Isn't that what is, in life, the most difficult? It's the common sense. It's not the common practice, and, to me, when ... what really wanted me to get on this podcast with you is when you think about respect, it's a word that's been around forever. But as we live in this world of noise and there's tons of messages coming to our plate, we're all ... I think we all fall into that fear of saying the right thing, doing the right thing, that, suddenly, we lost the 101, the basic 101, that I'm guessing most of our parents have taught us, and that's just "Be true to yourself. Respect others, no matter who it is. And make sure that 'To be true to yourself' means you're consistent." No one is ever guessing who shows up, and the minute you start affecting that, people start doubting.

Stacey: But if you're consistent, you will eliminate all doubt in your listener's mind.

Mike: Yeah. And what I loved ... this weekend, I was at an event where we were hearing some speakers, and the person was talking about personal branding. And it was so interesting because what the expert said was that personal branding was personal self-expression. And what most-

Mike: -people make the mistake of thinking is personal branding is "this brand I have to create that sells" versus understanding that personal branding is actually the ultimate example of personal self-expression, that you fully express and that you are you, so I know what I'm gonna get with you. I know your brand. Then I'm gonna align with the you that I know is always gonna be true, and I want that. I want that. So, yeah, you might lose some friends over here. You might lose them, but you're gonna gain the friends that align with you. And I think that's the fear that, if we truly are self-expressive and consistent in that, we're gonna lose some people, but you're gonna gain. Like, in the world of business, you're gonna gain clients that are so in-tuned with you, you're gonna be with each other forever.

Stacey: It's so true. You're starting to ... and I think this applies to our personal life and our professional life. I'm just going to throw out Facebook for a moment, only because there was a conversation with one of my clients about it the other day. And he was saying ... he was like, "I can't stand Facebook. I don't like being on it," he goes, "because everyone's life is so great. Everyone is just having such a great day." He goes, "Are you kidding me? Who would ever put on Facebook 'I'm just not feeling well today?'" And we all have it, right? So, that's one example of we now live in this culture, where, I said earlier, there's a lot of noise, and we're always trying to fit in with that next group, with that next crowd. And does it tie in with we're afraid of what to say or are we losing that authenticity or sitting back or trying to watch everyone because now we can see people more often through social media? Get back to the basics. Get back to ... [inaudible 00:09:31] you know I love country music a lot, and there's that Tim McGraw song that is "Humble and Kind."

Stacey: And if you listen to the lyrics, they're so simple, but we just have forgotten it. And a lot of those lyrics tie to "Respect the people that are around you." I come in from an angle, "Respect their time." Every time they come to listen to you, make it the best 10, five, 20 minutes that they always feel like you don't waste their time. You always give them an action step because that's the purpose of the conversation, and there's always some value. There's always some value proposition that's ties to it. If you could do those three things, I bet people look at your name, when it appears on their Outlook calendar in the morning, a little differently, meaning, "Okay. I don't even have to bring my technical gadget. Mike will make all use of time that is my value, and he'll be done in 20 minutes, as he promised."

Mike: And I love that 'cause that's all about respecting their time, and before, we were talking about making sure we're being ourselves in that moment of respecting their time, that we're truly saying what needs to be said. And that reminded me of a quote I heard this weekend. It was from Jason Gold, but he said, "Authenticity is what is left over when you stop trying to manage impressions." Isn't that powerful? Which is what you were just talking about. We're all over social media trying to manage impressions, which means we're not ourselves.

Stacey: We're not, and we're just ... we're losing that. We always use the line with our clients, the ones that are ... we have a lot of clients that are virtual. I'm sure our listeners understand that, and I had a conversation this morning with a client. And she said, "We've relied too much on it that we're starting to get lazy when we really could have a live webcam conversation or not." I said to her, "Maybe it's something as simple as telling your folks, your team, to hang up the email and pick up the phone." I know it seems like such an ancient concept. Or, turn on your webcam. That, to me, is another way for them to see your authenticity, another way to respect their time. You're just ... you're putting that extra effort versus anyone else out there that sends a quick text, and in the bottom of the text, it says, "Excuse my typos."

Mike: Oh, I just had somebody do this the other day to me, and it was awesome. I don't know the person. I didn't know the person. They friended me through Facebook because they're a podcaster, and I'm a podcaster. And, in the Facebook Messaging, he sent an audio message: "Hey, Mike. Just listened to your show. Love your show. I love the blah, blah, blah." And I'm like, "Wow, this is cool," and hearing this person's voice, it took no more energy, but so much more personal than his written word, which I would not have felt that-

PART 1 OF 3 ENDS [00:12:04]

Mike: So much more personal than his written word, which I would not have felt that passion, that energy. It was just incredible. So I think sometimes we get caught up in, well those other things take more energy. No, they don't. That's the myth. It's actually quicker to talk than to type.

Stacey: It's so much quicker. I was just told on Friday you can do that through Twitter too because a client of mine received a tweet that was an audio retweet. I'm like brilliant.

Mike: Yeah. What do you think are actions people choose, strategies that people choose that jeopardize their ability to be seen as respectful or as trustworthy?

Stacey: That jeopardizes it? First, I go back to the technical gadget, you know your phone. It'd be as if we were on this podcast but I just have to quick check email.

Mike: For anybody whose listening, she's literally checking her email on her phone as we're talking.

Stacey: Right but there's so much distraction. When I travel I spend a lot of time with my laptop in a restaurant because I love the energy around me. And it is a research project every time because you just look up and half the people are down in their technical gadgets. You can tell it's a pet peeve of mine. And I see it with leaders that'll do it in their meetings.

Stacey: And I always tell them, how you behave is how people respond. If you do it to your teams, they're gonna do it to you too in a meeting. It's fair game. I mean that's a big piece, we're really losing the ability to look people dead in the eye, when we're having a conversation. We don't do it anymore. And it's free.

Stacey: It's free to build trust just by looking people dead in the eye. We're so caught up in all the distractions around us, we're not paying attention, we don't focus on what's happening. And our mind is always wandering, which I think someone can tell when your minds wandering too. You're not quite there.

Mike: Yeah, when I ask audiences what does it feel like to be respected? They say words like, seen, valued. So if you're on your phone, or I'm on my phone while you're talking to me there's no way you feel seen because you can't even see my eyes.

Stacey: Yeah.

Mike: And I remember when I would coach kids, youth in middle school, and we would say the way we know you're listening is when we can see your eyes. That's how we know you're listening. It tells us we're being seen. And you're seeing us, and we're seeing you. And it's so powerful. And you think many of us as parents, in corporate America, we can all fall guilty.

Mike: So I don't want somebody listening going, "Well jeez do you never do that?" Yeah, we do that, but the thing is can we catch ourselves and say, I want to reduce that dramatically, that behavior?

Mike: And when I catch it I want to acknowledge it for the error it is. So if I am doing it, I looked at my phone while you were talking that wasn't okay. And I want to apologize for that. You are what matters because now I acknowledge it.

Mike: Now if I keep doing it, it's not gonna mean anything. But if I acknowledge that and don't repeat that behavior that's powerful.

Stacey: You hit something very key there. I like the fact that you said you and I. I do it. I get caught doing it. Heres the difference though, I know when I do it. And to me that's part of this authenticity and having that consistency.

Stacey: Its being aware, self aware that when you are doing something, body language, that's not consistent with trust, credibility, its not consistent with your message. So that would be your first answer to that question that you asked.

Stacey: I think the other piece is when you're in a conversation and everything that you say is so incongruent with the conversation at hand because you can tell that person is completely drifting and not listening to what you're saying. And it's Q&A, Q&A would be a good example of that.

Stacey: When we jump in perhaps it's during a meeting, someone asks you a question, and you're already formulating your answer. And then you go on and on. And you talk about what you think they should hear, rather than what is really important to their need and their expectation.

Mike: Along that same path of being inconsistent in what we say, I know I certainly have fallen prey to this and I think when you have an analytical mind, and I don't even think that. I think that's an excuse we make.

Mike: I think as human beings we like to talk negative I don't know the psychology of why. I don't know if that's to make ourselves feel better at times. But we can be negative. And when we have a caring, respectful, image, and that's who we are.

Mike: But then we don't speak that way around certain people. When we're around that one person there's a lot of negative energy and we go there. We go to the gossip, we go to all of that.

Stacey: Yes.

Mike: We lose trust don't we? We lose all influence. So how do you help somebody, all of us from getting caught into that? And is there a place for people to go, but I need somewhere to have that expression. What do I do with that feeling? Like I want to be able to evaluate what I just saw and talk about that. And there was negative to it. Why can't I do that without harm to breaking this trust?

Stacey: I think there's a piece that you can go there. I would always be careful. And this is just a personal recommendation. Take it for what it's worth. I would always explain why I feel that way and where it's coming from.

Stacey: I go back to since I focus on body language, I go back to it sounds a little bit different when I'm talking to someone negative and the body language supports that. Meaning I'm all negative with my facial expressions, the tone of my voice, my gestures.

Stacey: Versus I can tell you something that's negative but do it in a way that softens it. I'm not saying softening it jeopardizes your authenticity. Again you've gotta make sure that every time you're in those conversations that might get caught up in the gossip or the negativity, get rid of the core to the gossip.

Stacey: And focus on, well why are you saying what you're saying? Why does your opinion stand the way it is? And make sure that if you think there's any confusion what you're saying, I would always explain, heres why I'm coming at this subject from this angle.

Mike: I love that because that's reframing. I'm reading a book right now called, Designing Your Life, which is all about how we reframe things. Whether we choose to reframe or not. And that can build trust. You're not gossiping if you reframe right?

Mike: If I go, I was at this thing and Dave this, I couldn't believe Dave did that. Okay, that's gossip right?

Stacey: Yes.

Mike: That's just pure negative. There's nothing else coming out of that. It's me venting. But if the world knows I talk that way about Dave, then they can wonder if you're gonna talk that way about me? Therefore, I don't feel safe around you. I don't trust you. You've lost influence. By what you've described that would be a loss of influence.

Stacey: Yes, and you'd lose respect for it.

Mike: Yes.

Stacey: And it's easy you can get caught up in that.

Mike: And I could have reframed it. I could have reframed it and said, I'm really curious why Dave made that choice. I'd be curious to ask Dave why he made that choice at that moment because that was a little bit different than what I expect Dave to do at that moment.

Mike: There's no gossip to that. That's a wanting to learn, wanting to be curious. And it also means I'm being compassionate to Dave because we all make mistakes. So people have the right to gossip about me because there's mistakes. What if they were curious instead of gossiping? And I know I've fallen guilty to this.

Stacey: Exactly, we all have. As long as we learn from it. I always say, we're going to continue to make mistakes, and fail, and hurt people. It's knowing when you did it and don't do it again. I think that's not what I'm talking about when its consistency by the way.

Mike: Right.

Stacey: Learn the mistake and do it. I love the way you reframed it. You know what I think? That to me, the example you just gave, if someone said, "Well how would I define a good communicator versus someone whose influential?" What you did that's an influential communicator. That they take a moment, they may be listening to as the gossip is happening.

Stacey: They release it back and listen to what's going on. And in their mind they're taking the time to really give that response of how will my words land on this persons ears? And how will they translate it long after this interaction is over?

Mike: Yeah, it's taking responsibility for the impact of your words not just the words.

Stacey: Exactly.

Mike: There was a quote on Facebook this year that said, "I'm only responsible for my words not how you hear them." Which I thought, no that's a horrendous lack of responsibility because that implies words have no power and I can just say them.

Mike: And I can say, "Yes I said them but your reaction is the problem not my words that are the problem." Which is really, really messed up. It's callous. There's no other way to put that at that moment. And it was just a quote that was out there but people were sharing it like, isn't this funny? And I'm like, there are a lot of people who operate that way actually.

Stacey: I agree with that. Or it's going to the next level where, just because I communicated a message you understand it, you'll act on it, this is another pat of respect. It's your responsibility to work as hard as you need to work to make sure that your message is right for the listener.

Stacey: And when I say right, it's adaptable to what they already know about your topic, their knowledge level. And its starting to meet their level of understanding so that they can act on your recommendation.

Stacey: I always tell individuals that I work with, you've gotta do the work. You've gotta do the work to get people to listen to you, to answer you, to respond to you and act on your recommendation.

Stacey: And it kind of ties to that quote you just make the assumption that if I throw something out there, people respect that I'm having the conversation with them and they'll act on it. Not anymore, too many messages are coming at us 24/7. It's harder now than ever to stand out from that noise.

Mike: And Stacy you sent out newsletters via email that give people great content, great information. And I love it because there's two sides of this conversation. There is the you're not as influential as you think you are.

Mike: You work with some of the biggest brands in the country, people in very powerful positions that dictate the lives of thousands, tens of thousands of people out there. And they're not as influential as they think they are.

Mike: And then we have people who are authors and speakers. And you're going, you're not as influential as you think you are. But on the flip side, you don't want them thinking then I have no value. That I'm not influential.

Mike: So how does somebody whose listening to that going, yeah if I put something out to the world, not a whole lot of people are gonna act on it. The majority of the worlds not gonna act on it. I'm not influential therefore why try? Can you explain that so that people don't get caught up in the, I don't have the influence others have so why would I bother?

Stacey: Yeah, so it definitely is a catchy phrase. And you know that's all part of it because we want people to hear us. Heres my point behind that, and I'll compare it to like an athlete, an actress, anyone that practices constant. That no one, an athlete for example, do you have a favorite?

Mike: I don't have a favorite. I have ones that I love their achievements. I've learned that we gotta be careful of knowing that doesn't mean their personal lives are in order.

Stacey: You're right.

Mike: But their achievements. Michael Phelps achievements in the pool ... I was a swimmer, are unbelievable.

Stacey: You can only imagine because he's so unbelievable with his achievements, he wasn't born with those skills. And he gets that no matter how good, and all those medals that he has already earned, he still practices. It doesn't stop.

Stacey: And what I have found throughout the years before I started really pushing that phrase, "You may not be as influential as you think you are," I'd be working with these leaders and they would come off with these comments of, "I communicate all the time I'm good." "I worked hard to get to this position therefore I'm influential." "My title determines the level of influence I have."

Stacey: And once we started to do a lot of work with that C Suite, we realized just because you feel good, just because you've got this experience, doesn't mean you are influential all the time. And we use those sports analogies a lot where we talk about you're influential if you are consistent with your body language, your messaging.

Stacey: If you're constantly getting feedback, and I'm not saying, good, nice job. But you're getting feedback and you're always having that deliberate practice, like Phelps does, you're on that track to be influential.

Stacey: I'm not solid influential, but I get that. I also do the work that I'm constantly working towards that. I think there's definitely people that are more influential than others but the ones that are, they're aware of it. They're constantly getting feedback.

PART 2 OF 3 ENDS [00:24:04]

Stacey: Ones that are, they're aware of it. They're constantly getting feedback, they're practicing these skills.

Mike: And your book brilliantly teaches how to do that. You teach people how to seek the feedback, how to become aware of where their weaknesses are, 'cause it could be one thing they're doing that's killing their ability for people to hear 'em, and they're totally unaware. But they're willing to seek that out, they're willing to ask questions.

Stacey: That's it. I mean, I get coached. I have several coaches. Just when I get comfortable in my communication and the way that I interact with individuals, my coaches rip me apart and I realize, "Alright, now I caught this habit. Where'd I pick up this? I've got this to work on now." And to me, that's someone who's influential, that understands this is a lifelong learning. And that someone that truly respects how they show up everyday not only impacts them as a person, and their values, and their ethics, it also impacts everyone around them, in their personal life and their professional.

Mike: Well, and you were speaking, and, you know, personal and professional, what do you think is the greatest lesson you've had dealing with respect in your own life?

Stacey: How much time do you have? You know, you've heard me talk about my parents before, and I grew up on a farm, and my parents are 78. My dad retired several years ago literally for six days, and on the seventh day he was back up and doing his thing. He still is. That's where I learned my respect. I remember my dad telling my sisters and I, he always said, "If you show up on time, and you follow through, you will be the top 1%." Now that's my dad's statistic. He gets that from nowhere but up here. That's just his own thing, and I remember as a little girl thinking, "Oh, that's easy."

Stacey: Like, "That's all you have to do?" He kept ingraining that, and I watch my dad, I guess a third thing, he would always say, "Be kind to everyone around you. It doesn't matter their culture, it doesn't matter what they do for a living." And my dad modeled that. My dad models all of that to a T. He still does, and that's where I learned this whole idea of respect, that, from little on, I've always been told it doesn't matter who that person is, respect them, as it's someone that you wanna be their best friend, or you admire, and that's pretty basic.

Mike: I love it. And you, Monday to Monday. That is your slogan, the Monday to Monday, which, what I love about it is, you know, anybody listening right now should get one word consistently: consistent. Right? That's the word that you have been very consistent about throughout this discussion, and Monday to Monday bleeds it. Right? There's no days off in being yourself, truly yourself. You should always want to. Whether you're at work or at home, you should wanna be that person.

Stacey: You just wanna make sure that the best of you shows up, as much as humanly possible.

Mike: Yeah.

Stacey: And I've heard people say, "Come on. Monday to Monday? You never take a day off?" Well, it's not like taking a day off. Are there times I just lay back and I relax? Of course. But I also, I think, if you'd ask any of our clients, if you'd ask any of my friends, you'd get a pretty similar response from people, and it goes back to where we start this conversation. In my world, that's how I define respect.

Mike: Yeah, and what I appreciate about that is I think that if I ran into my friends who love me well, they know I love to dance. I absolutely ... people who know me know I love to dance.

Stacey: Remember, that's how I kinda first met you?

Mike: That's right.

Stacey: Because we were at some event, and you were ... totally had your dance shoes on, I'm like, "He's got it down."

Mike: Well, thank you. And there are times where my clients have known it, which I'm cool with, and people are like, "Why would you post that? Why would you ... ?" 'Cause that's who I am. Like, why would I not post that? What's inappropriate about that? There's nothing ... but it, "Well, that's not your topic, or that's not ... " But it's who I am, and what I've learned more is the more I share that the more my clients can trust me because it's not just always talking to us about the topic. Right? That this the same Mike ... I've traveled with Mike, and I've seen him dance at this public square in a city in Greece.

Mike: You know, one of my clients saw that happen, 'cause we were all out together and these kids were street dancing and I jumped in, and why not? Right? That's who we are, and I think that's where people make the mistake when they hear Monday to Monday. They think, "Work. I have to work on this Monday to Monday." Versus, are you just being your best person? Everyday I wake up, I wanna be my best self. Whether I'm working or not, I wanna have my best day. An off day especially, right? Why wouldn't you want it to be amazing, and allow yourself to be your truest self?

Stacey: Yeah, yeah. I was ... this is on a personal side, I was at a restaurant, this was a couple months ago, and it was two parents, I'm guessing. They were parents, meaning married couple, and they had three little kids. Little kids, and the kids were not exactly well-behaved at the table, and the minute that the mother got up to go to the restroom the kids were angels. It was like turning the faucet, Mike, on and off. The minute she came back it was an absolute circus, and like, okay, what's the consistency there? What's happening?

Stacey: I've read stories of ... I had one, this was a while ago, this is in the book, where I was speaking at a conference and the CEO was up on stage presenting, he was kicking off the conference for the week. It was a sales conference, so it's a big deal. They're pulling their sales professionals out of the field for a full week; that's a big deal. And the CFO, she's sitting next to me, and she's on her phone the entire time that he's up there talking about how critical it is that we focus on our development. I'm thinking, "Everyone sees her," because the house lights were on.

Stacey: It gets better, she goes up on stage, CEO comes off, the CFO, who was just on her phone, is talking about how critical it is, we've pulled you out on the field all this week, it's so critical to focus on your development this week, we ask that you shut off your phones. And just that moment of, I'm like, "She obviously isn't doing it on purpose; I don't think she got it." That her behavior is on display. We're all on display. I do find, as you climb that corporate ladder, the camera is always on.

Stacey: People are watching leadership because they want to try to figure out how do you do it, because you truly are a representation of, not only that team, but I think your company culture as a whole.

Mike: Well, and that's what I love about our work, that, when you're a speaker and you're on that stage, everybody's watching you, and when you're off that stage, everybody's watching you. Everybody.

Stacey: Yeah.

Mike: And people go, "Well, that's the burden of sort of in that public ... " and I don't mean celebrity public life, but where people watch you publicly. "That's the burden of it," and I think, "Well, it shouldn't be a burden if you are who you are. There should be no even thought going into what I'm doing offstage. If I am who I am onstage, then why when I walk off is it a burden to be who I am? The only way it'd be a burden is if I wasn't authentically consistent on that stage, 'cause then I have to put a show on when I'm offstage.

Stacey: I've gotten it before, but you can relate, Mike, where you're at the conference, you're at the event, and then you're at the airport and you run into the participants?

Mike: Oh yeah.

Stacey: I've had participants ... where I'm just, my head's down, I'm working on my laptop or whatever in the terminal, I had someone once come up to me, and they kinda sat and they kinda looked at me and they're like, "Oh my god, you look the same." "Yeah?" I mean, it's just, it's interesting. Or, how many times do you get, when you show up at an event, when you haven't met the planner, or your buyer in person, just over the phone, I've heard a lot of people say, "You look like the person on your website." I'm like, "That's good. I guess that's a compliment, yes."

Stacey: But it's little things like that that still scream "respect."

Mike: Yeah, I had a person today, or not today, this weekend when I was at an event. I'm offstage, I had spoke, actually, a day or two before so this was the last day of the event, and people were ... someone was talking to me, and when they were talking to me we were into this deep conversation, and then someone else talking to me, we were in this deep conversation, and I walked our, and then a participant did not know I was behind her when she was talking to my wife Karen, and said, "He'll never get out of there. He'll never get out of there because of how deeply he's talking to everybody."

Mike: And I was literally six inches from her, she did not know, and Karen pointed at her like, "He's on your shoulder." But what I thought was interesting was that she was surprised that I was having deep conversations with people, because in her mind, speakers don't have time for that. Right? Speakers get off the stage, and they don't make time for us. They leave. So if he is gonna have these deep conversations, you're gonna be here all day, because people would ... it was just interesting the way she thought it out, and she even made a comment that verified that.

Mike: You know? And so you're like, "How sad that there's a reputation there that either somebody who's been in the public eye in any way, whether it be from a stage or performance, that they're not gonna care about the people in the room." And so if they do, it's very striking. Which is sad, because shouldn't that be the norm? That's why you came in the room in the first place.

Stacey: Yeah.

Mike: Well, I wanna thank you. You've been ... gave us so much brilliance today. There's three books you recommend in addition to your own. I'm gonna have the links to all those, Real Leadership, Talk Like TED, and Mastering The Complex Sale, I'm gonna have those links on our website for anybody who wants to check those books out, 'cause I love to share the books that the people I have on are reading, I think that's always powerful.

Stacey: Of course. Thank you so much, you're doing amazing work. Keep doing it and influencing everyone around you.

Mike: Well thank you, Stacey. For everyone listening, we'd love to have you join us on Facebook. We have a discussion group, the Respect Podcast Discussion Group. Tell us your favorite part of the interview, questions you may have. Dive in there, and of course, we're always at mikespeaks.com if you want to find me.

Mike: Thank you for joining us for this episode of the respect podcast, which was sponsored by the Date Safe Project at datesafeproject.org and remember, you can always find me at mikespeaks.com.

PART 3 OF 3 ENDS [00:34:01]

Amy Oestreicher shares an open and honest conversation about PTSD and living life with PTSD. She discusses the role of creativity in a way that is not often discussed. You'll hear of some wonderful resources in books and more in this thoughtful and helpful discussion with host Mike Domitrz. Links to Amy's book are: https://www.amazon.com/My-Beautiful-Detour-Unthinkable-Grateful/dp/1733138811/ref=redir_mobile_desktop?_encoding=UTF8&ref_=dbs_a_w_dp_1733138811 And all ebook and paperback versions are available at https://www.amyoes.com/mbd * You are invited to join our community and conversations about each episode on FaceBook at https://www.facebook.com/MutuallyAmazingPodcast and join us on Twitter @CenterRespect or visit our website at http://www.MutuallyAmazingPodcast.com** BIO of Amy Oestreicher: Amy Oestreicher is an Audie Award-nominated PTSD peer-to-peer specialist, artist, author, writer for The Huffington Post, speaker for TEDx and RAINN, health advocate, award-winning actress, and playwright. As a survivor and "thriver" of multiple traumas, Amy eagerly shares the gifts of life's "beautiful detours" her educational programming, writing, mixed media art, performance and inspirational speaking. Amy has headlined international conferences on leadership, entrepreneurship, women's rights, mental health, disability, creativity, and domestic violence prevention. She is a SheSource Expert, a "Top Mental Health" writer for Medium, and a regular lifestyle, wellness, and arts contributor for over 70 notable online and print publications, and and her story has appeared on NBC's TODAY, CBS, Cosmopolitan, Seventeen Magazine, Washington Post, Good Housekeeping, MSNBC, among others. To celebrate her own "beautiful detour", Amy created the #LoveMyDetour campaign, to help others cope in the face of unexpected events. Her passion for inclusion, equity and amplifying marginalized voices has earned her various honors, including a scholarship from the Association for Applied and Therapeutic Humor Professionals, the first annual SHERocks Herstory National Performing Artist Honoree, a United Way Community Helper award, and a National Sexual Education Grant honor. To creatively engage student advocacy efforts, Amy developed a trauma-informed program combining mental health education, sexual assault prevention, and Broadway Theatre for college campuses, organizations and conferences. She has designed a creative curriculum for "Detourist Resiliency," an outreach program taken to schools, hospitals, and at-risk youth. She also has launched Detourist peer-led chapters on college campuses, Detourist creative arts workshops, and an online community to creatively fight stigma in society through storytelling. "Detourism" is also the subject of her TEDx Talk and upcoming book, My Beautiful Detour, available December 2017. As the 2014 Eastern Regional Recipient of Convatec's Great Comebacks Award and WEGO Health 2016 "Health Activist Hero" Finalist, and WeGO Health Expert, Amy is a passionate voice in the ostomy community, founding the online community Fearless Ostomates, speaking for National and Regional WOCN conferences, and writing for the official print publication of the UOAA. Her presentations on alternative medicine, and patient advocacy and healthcare have also been accepted to international conferences on patient care, internal medicine, medical trauma and therapeutic humor in hospitals. She has devised workshops for the Transformative Language Arts Network National Conference, the Eating Recovery Foundation, the 40th Anniversary New England Educational Opportunity Association Milestones Conference, the Annual National Mental Health America Conference,2016 American College of Surgeons Clinical Congress, and others. She was the 2016 keynote speaker for the Hawaii Pacific Rim International Conference on Diversity and Disability. and will be the featured keynote speaker at the 2018 International School of Social Work Conference in Ohio. As a playwright, Amy has received awards and accolades for engaging her audiences in dynamic conversation on trauma's effects on society, including Women Around Town's "Women to Celebrate" 2014, BroadwayWorld "Best Theatre Debut," Bistro Awards "New York Top Pick, and the "Singular Award" at the Sarasolo Theatre Festival, presented annually for a "performance that is exceptionally uncommon, groundbreaking, original and inventive." Amy has written, directed and starred in a one-woman musical about her life, Gutless & Grateful, touring theatres, schools, festivals, conventions and organizations since it's 2012 New York debut. Gutless & Grateful is currently being licensed to students across the country for academic projects and competitions. Amy spent Fall of 2015 participating as a playwright and performance artist in the National Musical Theatre Institute at the world-renowned Eugene O'Neill Theater Center, where she helped to develop the full-length multimedia ensemble piece, The Greeks Are Trying to Tell Us Something, and was a writer, actress, composer and set designer for "Playwrights and Librettists" – a festival of 27 30-minute plays in five days. Her original, full-length drama, Imprints, exploring the physical and psychological impact of trauma, premiered at the Producer's Club in 2016, and is currently in development for a full New York production as Flicker and a Firestarter. Her short plays have been published by the Eddy Theatre Company and finalists in Manhattan Repertory Theatre's Short Play Festival, as well as NYC Playwright's Women in the Age of Drumpf. Her theatre education essays and monologues have been published in Creative Pedagogy journals, as part of a theatre curriculum for high school students in the Philippines, and as a teaching artist, she is a strong advocate for arts integration and education. Amy's collaboration with Beechwood Arts on the immersion salon, "Resilience and the Power of the Human Spirit", has traveled around the world to health and arts facilities as a public installation, incorporating her monologues, art, writing and recipes to express the life-altering detours and ultimately the invaluable gifts of her resilient journey. Amy is also an active artist and teacher in the Jewish community, being honored by United Way in 2005 for her music programs at Hollander House, completing artist residencies at Art Kibbutz, and delivering "Hope, Resilience & Biblical Women" keynotes for synagogues and religious schools. After studying Theatre of the Oppressed in her studies at Hampshire College, she helped to train ACTSmart, a Playback Theatre troupe in Amherst, MA. She is also a passionate arts education advocate, a successful mixed media visual artist, a continuing education studio arts teacher, and an active member of the League of Professional Theatre Women, League for Advancement of New England Storytellers, Fairfield County Cultural Alliance, Alliance for Jewish Theatre, Theatre Artist Workshop, and several art guilds throughout Connecticut and New York. Amy is currently developing a multimedia performance project incorporate her original music compositions with the oral histories of her grandmother, a holocaust survivor with musical director David Brunetti, and developing a new multidisciplinary solo musical based on herthird TEDx Talk this year: healing from trauma through the archetypal hero's journey. She is also working on a full-length play with music, LEFTOVERS with director and dramaturge Susan Einhorn, based on her life after the surgical ICU. She is leading mixed media creativity and solo performance workshops to promote creativity as a mindset, an essential survival skill. Amy also offers creative coaching and consulting services help others navigate their own "life detours," and prides herself most on ending each night with a gratitude list. As the creator of Gutless & Grateful, her one-women autobiographical musical, Amy has toured theatres nationwide. She also premiered her drama, Imprints, at NYC Producers Club in May 2016, about how trauma affects the family as well as the victim. Her #LoveMyDetour campaign helps others cope with unexpected events. "Detourism" is also the subject of her upcoming TEDx talk and book My Beautiful Detour. LINKS: www.amyoes.com Amy's Social Media: Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/amyoestr and facebook.com/lovemydetour Linkedin: linkedin.com/in/amyoes Or you can subscribe to G+: https://plus.google.com/u/0/106058010956085677457/posts Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/amyoes70/allspice-acrylics-a-celebration-of-life-and-beauti/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/AmyOes70 Tumblr: https://www.tumblr.com/blog/amyoes stumbleupon: http://www.stumbleupon.com/stumbler/amyoes700 Bloglovin: https://www.bloglovin.com/blogs/amyoes-14356407 Twitter: @amyoes Instagram: @amyoes70 Link to R.A.I.N.N. (Rape, Abuse, & Incest National Network) at www.rainn.org Books Amy Recommends: Amy's Book: My Beautiful Detour New World Theatre's "Solitary Voice: A Collection of Epic Monologues" Nevertheless She Persusted by Tanya Eby & 8 Others The Hero's Journey by Joseph Campbell Waking the Tiger by Peter Levine and Ann Frederick The Courage to Heal by Laura Davis and Ellen Bass The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van der Kolk MD and Sean Pratt READ THE FULL TRANSCRIPTION of the EPISODE HERE (or download the pdf):

**IMPORTANT: This podcast episode was transcribed by a 3rd party service and so errors can occur throughout the following pages:

Mike: Welcome to the respect podcast. I'm your host, Mike Domitrz from mikespeaks.com, where we help organizations of all sizes, educational institutions, and the U.S. military create a culture of respect, and respect is exactly what we discuss on this show. So let's get started. This week's episode, we want to get right into it here 'cause you're going to be incredibly inspired by our guest's journey back to wholeness and reclaiming her voice using creativity as her lifeline. She gratefully discovered the upside of obstacles. Today Amy is a PTSD specialist, artist, author, Tedx, and Rain speaker, award-winning actress, a playwright, and mental health advocate. That is Amy Oestreicher. Thank you, Amy, so much for joining us.

Amy: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Mike: Absolutely. And so we want to dive right into this. The show, obviously, is all about respect, but you bring a different perspective in that you talk about PTSD and trauma. And let's get right into that. So when people hear trauma and PTSD, what form, or does it matter, that you're referring to?

Amy: Well, what I'm referring to is, there's trauma that comes from many setbacks and many unexpected twists and turns in my life that I didn't expect, that really didn't come to my realization until years and years later. So for PTSD, something can impact us that can completely change our lives overnight, and we might sit with that for a bit, and slowly we feel that something isn't right. I don't feel the same. And slowly those memories come to surface, and I found my way through piecing together those memories and finding healing through creativity. PTSD, for me, started, with being sexually abused by a teacher that I trusted. And an example of a symptom of PTSD is the freeze response, where you don't think anything has happened, and you kind of wake up and go about your life, and think everything's as you were, and suddenly something is off, disassociation, meaning the world is around you, and you're somewhere apart from it wondering what's going on.

Amy: I did not say no or fight back, although my mind was clearly thinking those things, but I just froze. I saw myself as somewhere separate. And years later it would take a lot of work to kind of bring those memories to light and start to heal through remembering all of that.

Mike: Well, one, I want to thank you for sharing your journey, your strength, your courage as a survivor. And I think this is an important topic because a lot of times when people hear freeze, they think that the natural human response is freeze or flight or fight. They tend to think, oh, most people flight or fight. They think that, and they forget that freeze is actually the most natural human reaction under stress in our DNA system as human beings, because back in the times of cave people, you did not fight the creature there was 20 times larger than you.

Amy: Right, right.

Mike: You either played dead, freeze, or you ran. Fight was the last thing you did. So a lot of times people hear it and they go, "Why didn't you fight?" Because it's the last innate response that the human body is likely to have because naturally it's to freeze or to run. And in certain situations, running's not an option. Child teacher, you can definitely feel like, I don't have that option. So to freeze is the natural thing to occur, and I think too often people don't realize that.

Amy: Exactly.

Mike: And so I think for anybody listening, thinking that, saying, "Well, why didn't the person fighter? Or what ..." Those are not innately in our DNA. So the body reacts under stress to its most innate natural things that it thinks it should do, that saved it over thousands of years of human being in existence. And that's what can happen in that moment. Is that true?

Amy: It's true, and I love to bring up an amazing resource that I found that, that changed my perspective on the freeze response. It's called ... It's a book called Waking the Tiger by Peter Levine. And what caught me, and what you brought up is, Peter Levine spent a lot of time just studying animals in the wild, and he saw that a gazelle when it's kind of running free it ... And a predator attacks it, it just plays dead. And then once the attack is over, it will just get up and just run and run and run and discharge that natural energy and restore its homeostasis and be back to normal. And Peter Levine was like, "Well, why can't humans do that? Why did we get stuck in that?" And, well, we have a brain, and we think ourselves, we overthink ourselves, and we stay frozen in that nestle, that bunches of energy, when really we just need to discharge that energy like the gazelle that is running through the wild. And we need to find a healthy container to get that capsulated energy out and bring it to light.

Amy: Eventually through talking about it and sharing it or whatever feels like a release to you, but he really, Peter Levine really took his cues from these animals in the wild that have this freeze response in them, and they know how to know from it. And I think the community really needs to understand what goes on in the freeze response to really support survivors and understand that this may be all tucked in and it needs to be brought to light.

Mike: Yeah. And one of the problems that communities can put on survivors at times is trying to understand why the survivor did what they did, instead of not understanding, the issue is what the predator did, not with the survivor did or did not do. To focus on whether the survivor fought back or run is missing the point. It's all about what the predator did. Now we need to be supportive of the survivor so that they can, like you said, be able to live that life, to be able to live a full life.

Amy: Right. Or, "Why didn't you tell someone right away?" Your words often come last. Again, It's that you think of a kaleidoscope of ... I am an artist, so I've been creatively ... colors coming together, red anxiety or anger or fear, and the person just does not have those words. I mean, it takes time. But the, I think the important first step is the community needs to be so informed of what the freeze response is and be there for their survivors and believe them.

Mike: Yes, well that's essential. And it is interesting because, depending on where PTSD has been discussed, people treat it differently. Military PTSD tends to be treated differently than sexual violence PTSD that's a result of sexual violence, because the military, and I get to work with the military all over the world, we thankfully are grateful from our military. Not everybody is, but a lot of people are. So when they look at the military, they go, "There's a hero who is struggling with something that happened because they sacrificed for our country." And so therefore there's empathy, there's understanding for that person. Yet there's not always the same toward sexual violence survivors. They don't have that same. Why do you think that is?

Amy: Well, you have to remember, too, that it took a long time for those stories to be told as well. My grandmother was a Holocaust survivor, and I think about how she coped just coming right out of the war before PTSD was even a word. I think for survivors of sexual violence the encouraging part is it now is becoming talked about much more than when it happened to me. And I say keep going with that. But there are more blurry lines with that, especially with what's shown to us on the media, with messages we've gotten from the past from culture and things like that. And now we're all trying to kind of make a new game plan. But it is kind of a fuzzy area because things that have seemed okay to other people in the past, well, now these survivors' stories are being told, and we see that, you know when this happened, this was not okay.

Amy: So I think it's our job, to be honest, everyone's job to make those boundaries just as clear that, just as PTSD is an atrocity with certain communities, it is an atrocity with survivors of sexual violence. I'm also a survivor of PTSD from almost 30 surgeries from another unexpected medical-related crisis. And I dealt with the same thing, that once I was done with all my surgeries and stitched up and ready to go, doctors thought, well, the physical part of me was healed, so why couldn't I just move on to the rest of my life? Whenever we encounter any kind of change in our life, where our life seems to just twist overnight, we need that support from those around us to know that it's going to take time for us to process that change, and we need to talk about it.

Mike: Yeah. And that's so important. And that goes into you ... In your work you talk about sharing your story and why somebody sharing their story's so important. Can you share for our listeners, our viewers, why that is such an important journey?

Amy: Yes. I didn't realize how important it was. My situation was very atypical, I guess. I guess unexpected, like anyone else would, but I was 18, and just a blood clot on caused me to go into many, many surgeries that changed my life overnight. And because of medical circumstances, I was very isolated for almost a decade. And so I didn't really have many people to talk to. I had my doctors, and I had my loving parents, and that's all. But slowly I started to write a little bit, and again, another book that inspired me was Joseph Campbell learning about, uh, the archetypal hero's journey, and I actually found my way through this dark, unanticipated chapter in my life through tracing Joseph Campbell's steps to what makes a hero in society and how they have to go away for a while and then come back transformed. I mean, it's in every Pixar movie, the heroes or in your Star Wars. And so I kind of used that as my own map. And so slowly I was typing.

PART 1 OF 3 ENDS [00:12:04]

Amy: Use that as my own map, and so, slowly, I was typing and typing to kind of uncover what I had been through for myself. That was only a very initial step because this was still all me realizing these things for myself. Then, years later, I finally was able to share it through theater, which I had always loved doing as a kid and which I thought was going to be my life. I ended up making that story arc into a one-woman musical that I've been touring since 2012, but it's very funny. That was the first time I'd ever shared anything about what I had been through, and in the very first opening venue in New York, I said one line about the sexual abuse. And it was very difficult for me. I didn't know whether it fit in with everything else, and then, over the years, as I became more and more comfortable with that, talking about it, more people that came to see my show came up to me and said, you know, "Something similar had happened to me." And I'd started the conversation.

Amy: And now, I've expanded on the show, where I do go into that a lot and the healing that came come from it and the community that can come, so, I guess, writing my show and performing it was an example, for me, of how just planting the seed of just starting your story and getting to share it and share it and talk to other people, it can make you move on or go to the next step that you need to go to.

Mike: And you're a big advocate of using creativity in that process, as you've explained.

Amy: Yeah.

Mike: So, yeah, you created the show, a one-woman, one-person show, that really has a powerful impact. If somebody's listening, going, "I'm just not creative. I am not an artist. I am not a performer-

Amy: No, no, no-

Mike: -I get-

Amy: -don't say that.

Mike: I know. I know, but that's what people are going to thing, so-

Amy: I know.

Mike: -we need to address that. I think there's a misunderstanding what creativity means, so can you explain what we mean by "creativity" and why-

Amy: Totally.

Mike: -it's so important and can be such a great resource in the process?

Amy: Yes. Creativity is really just a mindset. I couldn't talk for many months after my surgeries because I had all these things going on, tubes in and out of me, and then I couldn't talk at times where I felt too shocked at everything going around me to even say a word. And I missed singing, and I wanted to go back to that. But that's when I started ... I picked up a paint brush by accident in one of the hospitals, started just painting, but by creativity is really just a way to see things differently. So, it means just taking a walk outside, taking a breath, looking at the tree and finding grounding by a tree in a new way. It means cooking a recipe you've always loved. It means putting a little bit of that locked-up energy that you'll ... that passion that was always there before all this that can never be taken away by any kind of trauma. It just gets frozen like a gazelle. You're playing dead.

Amy: Creativity is a way to unlock that clenched-up energy and just bring it forward, and don't worry about the final steps of "Well, how am I gonna tell about what happened to me?" Just focus on that, those uncomfortable feelings you might feel in the freeze response, which is the anxiety, the pain, the fear. Feel that energy and see if there's a color. Start with that and see it in the sky or something and really just ... I got to say one more time, before you start working about how we're gonna show it to the community, just focus on getting out that energy for yourself and seeing that you were in there all along. You just got bring it to life somehow.

Mike: Yeah. And you can choose to never share it with the community. It could be your process for your own journey.

Amy: Exactly.

Mike: And that's what I love about how you're describing creativity. I have always remembered. I was speaking to a doctor, and I work with a doctor who's both general practitioner and also holistic, so both sides of the equation.

Mike: And he was once saying to me, "Hey, Mike, on a scale of one to three in how you feel the world [inaudible 00:16:49] the world, you're a three, very high, like, off-the-charts three. You feel everything in the world, which means you're a high creative," and I jumped back and went "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I don't do art. I don't write music. I love to sing, but I'm horrible at it. Like, I do not have artistic traits." And he went, "What? You get on stage and you share with people your thoughts and ideas. That's a very creative process in how that works and how you put the thoughts together and how you connect, and you're a massive problem-solver. That's what you love to do." So, that's all creativity, so I think-

Amy: Oh, yeah.

Mike: -for people listening, pause and go, "Are you a problem-solver? Because if you are, that's a high-level form of creativity. You're trying to creatively come up with a solution when you're problem-solving."

Amy: Exactly. Yeah. It just means taking an unexpected turn and saying, "All right. I'll go with it and see what happens." And we never know what's coming next, so if you have creativity, that is your best resource because then you can just say, "Okay, unexpected twist, I'm gonna just follow you and use my magic reassembling creativity problem-solving skills to figure out whatever comes next."

Mike: Yeah. And it's very natural, as a Buddhist approach, that we let go of the outcome, right, that we be present in the journey, let go of the outcome because when you're outcome-focused, it actually kills your creativity because-

Amy: And [inaudible 00:18:11] the outcome.

Mike: -you're creating pressure. Right. You're saying there has to be this end result versus actually just being free to the possibilities. That's creativity.

Amy: Exactly.

Mike: It is freedom of possibility, so I love that conversation.

Amy: Open mind.

Mike: Yes. Yeah, exactly. How do you think we help society as a whole have a universal empathy when we can't relate to what somebody else has been through? Somebody hears that and goes, "Well, why didn't they do this?" Or "Why didn't they do that?" And what's happening is they're watching through their lenses. They're thinking through their lenses and thinking, "I would've done this. At least, I think I would've. So, how in the world did they do that?" How do we help people understand that empathy means, "I don't think about it how I would've done it. I think about what they must have been going through, and I will never-

Amy: Right.

Mike: -fully understand it 'cause I wasn't there, but at least I'm trying to be compassionate from that viewpoint?"

Amy: Right. I mean, I come from an acting background, and the first thing I remember learning is awareness without judgment. We're aware of everyone else around us, of everything else around us, but we don't judge. But, with these circumstances, I think, honestly, having been through it and now supporting other survivors of violence, I really think we all need to up our game and, again, be educated on PTSD and the various responses that can only not ... not only affect the survivors themselves, but the people that care about them. It can affect other communities and things they're going through. I mean, trauma both a universal and historical and ... we'll keep going because life changes. So, I think we're all better off if we understand what can happen, and we're ... as humans, we're all always going to think, "Well, I would've done this," or "I would've said 'No,'" or "I would've ...."

Amy: I think, again, we can have those thoughts, but at the end of the day, we really have to understand that this is trauma. And I want to be open to whatever this person is sharing with me or chooses to share.

Mike: Yeah.

Amy: It's having respect.

Mike: That's just it. It's treating everybody with respect and dignity, and in the wake of sexual violence, sometimes there's destructive coping strategies that show themselves-

Amy: Exactly.

Mike: -for a survivor and that can amplify symptoms of PTSD. And you used the word "victimization." Couple things. Those listening, when we say "destructive," what do we mean by that 'cause they might understand what that means and how do you help somebody who's experiencing that?

Amy: So, destructive coping mechanisms. I'm gonna go back to that energy that survivors feel that has not been discharged. When we carry a secret, [inaudible 00:21:14] are like poison. They burdensome. They weigh down, and so those can often be coped with in anything from drugs and alcohol to other symptoms to any other way that we can find to become numb, whether it's scrolling up and down on Facebook all day. It's any way that we are trying to ignore that energy and kind of just close off and not deal with those things, and it takes a lot of bravery and a lot of courage to really look at that energy for what it is and maybe even remember a bit of what happened and how you felt. But it's a very important part of the process because all those destructive coping mechanisms ... really, it's about energy. Think of that energy that the gazelle wishes they could be running off and around with. It's that energy we need to get out, that we feel like we have to close down.

Mike: Well, and I want to step in there because I, in this line of work ... and I'm sure you run into the same thing. People come up to me and go, "I have someone close to me in my life who either I know or I highly suspect is a survivor of sexual violence, but they have not told anyone. And I can see the destructive coping strategies in their life. How do I help them?" And what happens when they ask that question is there's two approaches. There's the "How do I help them? How do I support them?" And there's the "How do I fix them?" Which are two very different approaches.

Amy: Yeah. [inaudible 00:23:02] true.

Mike: Help and support is what people need. Being fixed is never gonna work with a human being. You don't fix people. I've made that mistake of trying to be a fixer in my life over [inaudible 00:23:12]. There were times, where I looked back, when I was trying to fix the person versus be supportive of the person, so how do we, instead of trying to fix them, how do we provide support when it's ... they're not asking for it? They have not come forward. I mean, verbally, asking for it. They're not outwardly saying, "Will you support me? Will you help me?" They haven't even told anyone that they are struggling with this. How do you help and support that person?

Amy: And, honestly, they're role is very, very different because I think it's human instinct to want to fix people. When we see people struggling, we want to reach out, and we want to help them so badly. Surprisingly, the best way to help and support is not such a hands-on, fixing approach as you might have wanted. It's to really just ... being there as-

PART 2 OF 3 ENDS [00:24:04]

Amy: It's really just being there as a listener, as a gentle, compassionate listener. And if you need to say, "I believe you" ... It's taking in the words they're saying or whatever they're giving you.

Mike: Yeah, because they might not tell you. They might not be in a believe you moment, because they might not tell you. And that's why saying that I'm here for you. If anything ever has happened or ever does, that's the language we teach our audiences. If anybody ever has or does. That way you're opening the door to possibilities of what could've already happened or what could happen in the future. It's so important for the person to understand, I'm here for you. And then the tough part is, you have to be patient.

Amy: Right.

Mike: Because they may not want to tell you for ten years, and that's their journey. It's not your right to invade and change their journey on them. Or ever. Or maybe they want to tell you right then, but it's their journey which means you have to be patient and understand this isn't about me finding out, or me being told. It's about them and being present for them.

Amy: Yeah. And for those of you that are listening going, "That's it?" I get it, it's so simple and it's so difficult to just leave it at that, just be there. But it's that support. I always go back to theater and military veterans that the Greek plays of Sophocles about war and all those things. Those were originally meant for veterans of the war to come in and share their story to the community to get that community compassion, to have people know what they were going through. And there are other rituals that we still do today like dancing and group singing and all those things that show that our need for community is so important. So, survivors of sexual violence, if you feel kind of that no one in the community understands you, please know that coming back to the community is just such an important part of healing, even if it's scary. And for those that see these people struggling, just welcome them in and don't ask questions, don't demand answers. Just, we need to stay welcome with open arms.

Mike: I love that you pointed out "Don't ask questions." Because that sounds like you're prying and you're investigating, which can very quickly turn into ... whether intentional or not, unintended victim-blaming is what can happen there.

Amy: Right.

Mike: So just listening is so important. Now, a great resource out there that you speak for, you're a RAINN speaker, is RAINN. Which for anybody listening is Rape Abuse and Incest National Network, RAINN.org. They also have an eight hundred number on their website, and you can call them and it's actually 656-HOPE, I think, is the eight hundred number. But you can call, you can email, and they'll hook you up with resources locally that are confidential and twenty-four seven. They can tell you what those are, but they can also just start by being there for you. It's a great organization. What are some additional resources that you feel are vital for survivors to know if somebody's listening right now and is experiencing PTSD?

Amy: Right. So, first of all, I can't say enough good things about RAINN. They will connect you to anything ... and anonymously. I know a lot of people who are worried about saying who they are or saying who they feel the perpetrator was. You don't have to worry about that. They will take you wherever you are right now. Some books that really helped me again were Waking the Tiger by Peter Levine. He started this whole kind of therapy with the body called somatic experiencing, which is all about using breath work to really feel your body again. And another book that helped me understand is called The Body Keeps the Score by Dr. Bessel Van Der Kolk. But in terms of online resources, PTSD.org, there are so many resources there.

Mike: So you just said that's PTSD.org?

Amy: Yes.

Mike: Okay, I just want to make sure we have all that on our show notes, for anybody who's listening so they can find that there.

Amy: Right. And again, any of these places will connect you to someone ... Oh, no, that's not even there anymore. Oh my God. I will have to send you a new link for that. I'm sorry about that.

Mike: Which link are you referring to?

Amy: I was actually referring to PTS-

Mike: Oh, yes, you're right, I see that now. There's nothing there. So that's okay, we'll have the link to RAINN-

Amy: I will get you-

Mike: -and we'll have links to all the books you've brought up, we'll have that in the show notes. Let's get into some more books here that you recommend for people. One is your own, your book, My Beautiful Detour. Another one is New World Theater Solitary Voice: A collection of epic monologues. And then you have Nevertheless We Persisted by Tanya Eby and others. If you want to dive in, why those three books? Obviously we'll start with yours, My Beautiful Detour.

Amy: That's on pre-order now, I'm very excited for that because it is the whole story of a long-winded detour and lots of PTSD, where I felt very isolated and felt like no one understands me, I can't reach out for help, who would get this? But then how all this creativity ... and I say "creativity" in this general term of a mindset, kind of figuring this out as I went along ... how that really helped me along my journey. And eventually how I was able to reach out. I talk about being a detourist, where you see a detour in the path and you find a little creativity and find your way through. So besides talking about my story and how I healed, I also have a lot of really good plans for when life crashes over night and you need to find a way out again. So, I hope it's helpful.

Mike: Absolutely. Well, I appreciate that. It's in a pre-order so it's still on its way, but people can get it now, so as soon as it comes out. And then, New World Theater Solitary Voice: A collection of epic monologues. What about that one?

Amy: Well, again, I listed these because, again, the monologue that I wrote for this is actually how I originally discovered I was sexually abused, by picking up a book on a bookshelf, which is really the important resource that I wanted to bring up called The Courage to Heal, Laura Davis, and I'll have to ... The Courage to Heal really saved my life. It's a workbook for survivors of sexual violence and since then there have been editions for their caretakers to fill out with the survivors. There have been many recent versions, but I can't say enough about the book, The Courage to Heal. So, this book that just came out has a monologue where I talk about that first time that I take that up.

Amy: And then this last, Nevertheless We Persisted, is actually a collection. It was nominated for an Audie Award this spring of monologues and stories about finding a voice in total darkness. So I hope those performances are very inspiring, as well.

Mike: No, I appreciate that. And your book and your stories, you're getting the messages out there. Now, the one book that you just mentioned, The Courage to Heal, if somebody's looking for that, there's two different versions by completely different authors. There's How to Overcome Sexual Abuse and Childhood Trauma. There's also A Guide for Women Survivors of Child Sexual Abuse. Which one were you referencing?

Amy: Right. So I was referencing the one that originally changed my life by Laura Davis and Ellen Bass.

Mike: Got it, the Guide for Women Survivors of Child Sexual Abuse, okay.

Amy: Right.

Mike: Just so our listeners are hearing, I want to make sure we give them the right one. And we'll have that in the show notes, we're going to have all these in the show notes.

Amy: Yes.

Mike: So I want to thank you so much, Amy.

Amy: Thank you.

Mike: For everyone listening, this is Amy Oestriecher.

Amy: Hi.

Mike: Our show notes will have all of the links to Amy, 'cause she gave us a lot for social media. All these books, I'm going to have it all there so you can find it all there. Remember you can also jump in this discussion on Facebook, we have a discussion group called The RESPECT Podcast discussion group, jump in there on the conversation, subscribe on iTunes. We love it if you leave a review, too, that always helps. So, Amy, thank you so much for joining us.

Amy: Thank you. Thank you.

Mike: Thank you for joining us for this episode of The RESPECT Podcast, which was sponsored by The DATE SAFE Project at datesafeproject.org. And remember, you can always find me at mikespeaks.com.

PART 3 OF 3 ENDS [00:33:25]

Discover how Tom Antion built a multi-millionaire dollar business with a one-sentence mission stated based in RESPECT as he shares with host, Mike Domitrz * You are invited to join our community and conversations about each episode on FaceBook at https://www.facebook.com/MutuallyAmazingPodcast and join us on Twitter @CenterRespect or visit our website at http://www.MutuallyAmazingPodcast.com** BIO of Tom Antion: Tom Antion is an Internet multimillionaire and lifelong entrepreneur who has built his business on treating people right. He's got a one sentence "respect filled" business plan he's lived by for 44 years. Links to Tom Antion:

• Podcast: https://www.ScrewTheCommute.com
• https://www.GreatInternetMarketingTraining.com
• https://www.IMTCVA.org
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/antion
• Hollywood Documentary About Tom's Life: https://www.Facebook.com/americanentrepreneurfilm

Books Tom Recommends: "Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion" by Robert Cialdini "Lost Conscience" by Alain Burrese READ THE FULL TRANSCRIPTION of the EPISODE HERE (or download the pdf):

**IMPORTANT: This podcast episode was transcribed by a 3rd party service and so errors can occur throughout the following pages:

Mike: Welcome to The RESPECT Podcast. I'm your host Mike Domitrz from Mike Speaks dot com where we help organizations of all sizes, educational institutions, and the US military create a culture of respect. Respect is exactly what we discuss on this show so let's get started.

Mike: Welcome to this episode. I want to get right into it with our guest here Tom Antion. I've known Tom for now almost two decades. He's an internet multimillionaire and lifelong entrepreneur who has built his business on treating people right. He's got a one sentence respect-filled business plan he's lived by for 44 years. Tom, thank you so much for joining us.

Tom: Mike, it's been a long ... Too long, man.

Mike: It has been too long. Let's start there. What have you been up to in the last 16 years since we originally met at the NSA ... Actually the very first time was the NSA [inaudible 00:00:52] event.

Tom: Yeah. Even before that the last 24 years I got on the commercial internet when the commercial internet started around 1994. I've been selling like crazy on the internet. No spamming, no porn, but all kinds of products and services. Part of what I wanted to talk to you about today was a topic called excellence.

Tom: I didn't know anything about the internet. Nobody did back in 1994. When we started learning about it it led me to a lot of other things. We can get into it later but the topic of excellence is really ingrained in me by my dad as do everything you can to the greatest of your ability. That's respect for yourself and it's projecting respect to people around you.

Mike: Let's get right into that then because when a lot of people think, "Oh, I made a lot of money on the internet" you were doing it in ways that were common sense but going against the norm. For all of our listeners to get an idea, Tom, while people were trying to say, "Let's build beautiful amazing websites", Tom would say, "No, no, no. It could be the ugliest website in the world. If it gets people to my site and it helps them get what they need that's what's important."

Mike: You built very content rich, very keyword-loaded sites on things like ... You had to once write ... This story I've never forgotten. You were giving a toast at a wedding and you started looking up, "Hey, where do I find toasts?" You thought, "Hey, people are constantly looking for this." You sold an ebook on toasts for weddings that did very, very well by just helping people find it and get what they needed.

Tom: $72,000 a year for nine years straight. Selling [inaudible 00:02:36]

Mike: Right. That's just amazing.

Tom: I also had one, I don't know if you know about it, called Instant Eulogy. People were also desperate at the last minute. They're distraught. I helped them ... That was $42,000 a year for nine years straight helping people with eulogies. It's all based around helping people. That's what we all do is help people and there's a value to that.

Mike: I'm glad you brought that up. I think a lot of times people think of internet sales, internet marketing. They have this negative stereotype that often as a company such industries as used car sales or that there's this ambulance chasing lawyer concept, that they're manipulating people to buy versus serving people, being present to what people need, and providing that too them, which is exactly what the eulogy situation was, exactly what the best man speech was. It was saying, "Hey, here's a need that somebody is not filling."

Tom: Well, yeah. I will say that there is a respect involved in manipulating people. Think about that. Again, I'm always going to go the other direction, right? I know ... In fact, you talked about scams. I started a ... There's a TV show in development in Hollywood called Scam Brigade. It's me going after bad people. The industry is fraught with it.

Tom: If I know that I'm going to take care of you as a customer and keep you from being robbed by other people I want to get you to buy my stuff because not only do I believe that it's going to help you, I know that I'm going to keep you away from getting robbed by unscrupulous people. There's a respect in there from my point of view. I call it manipulation but I'm manipulating you for your own good. That's the thing.

Mike: Yeah. Let's discuss that, Tom. Are you manipulating or are you helping people find what they need? Why are you comfortable with the word ... Some people would argue. Why are you comfortable with the word manipulation?

Tom: I'm comfortable because when you come from a position of goodness where you know you're in the other person's field, you've got a fiduciary relationship to take care of that person, I don't care what you call it really. I just know that if you go with me I'm going to take care of you. I'm going to make sure you get great value. This is my one sentence business plan I was telling you about.

Tom: I've lived this way since I was 10 years old. If every business on Earth would live by this one sentence instead of spending $100,000 to develop a mission statement, this one sentence will do it. I create quality products that somebody actually wants at a reasonable price and I service them after the sale.

Tom: Every piece of that is respect for the customer but it can make you a lot of money. There's no sin in that as long as you're given that great value, showing respect, not fleecing the people because they don't know any better, which is very common nowadays. I don't really care what you call it. I want you to do ... Anybody out there, not just me. If you really believe ...

Tom: Like you, the work you do with the DATE Project and all that stuff. You know you're going to keep people from getting out and getting in trouble, right? You believed that for most of the time I ever knew you, right?

Mike: Right.

Tom: You better darn well get people to go through your program to keep them ... Yours has bigger ramifications than mine does. Mine you might have trouble making a car payment if you don't do it but you there could be lifelong ramifications or not have a life if they don't do what you say. If you manipulate somebody to get somebody to listen to you, I'm cool with it. Totally cool with it.

Mike: I love this language. I think it's very fascinating. Would somebody say there's a difference in influence and manipulation? In other words, manipulation is getting you to do something you wouldn't otherwise do?

Tom: It has a negative connotation.

Mike: It does, right? It has a very negative connotation. That you're getting somebody to do something that they wouldn't do but as I say that I recognize that's not negative. To get somebody to do something they wouldn't normally do is not negative. It could be incredibly powerful.

Mike: Maybe the difference here is that somebody is listening here and thinking, "Wait, wait, wait. You're describing education versus manipulation." Manipulation has a sense that it's only about what the seller wants, not about what's good for the buyer maybe, right?

Mike: That if we're educating and that inspires people to take action they would not normally take that's different than manipulation, which means it's all about me getting you to do what I want you to do. Maybe that's the difference there?

Tom: It's just semantics to me. As long as I'm coming from a good place and I can help you be in a better place you could call it whatever you want. I don't really care.

Mike: Well, I love that about you, Tom. You've always had that approach of, "I'm not worried what people say about me. I'm not worried what people care about me." In that, if I know that I'm doing the right thing that's what matters in the end. You describe that in your one sentence mission statement that you've always had.

Mike: You mentioned there briefly that there's this documentary that you're working on. I think there's two elements here, right? There's a show that you're working on about busting scams. I know of one that you worked on busting years ago. Then there's also a documentary about your life.

Tom: Yeah. That is something where ... Do you remember Dottie Walters?

Mike: Yes.

Tom: Dottie Walters got me started in speaking in 1991. A bizarre story about how I got hooked up with her. I ended up being her right coast son because I would help her every time she would do her Speak and Grow Rich seminars on the East Coast. I would just go for free and help just to be involved and learn.

Tom: I ended up speaking at her memorial service in California when she passed. A producer/director saw me and was introduced to me and it was, "Hello. How are you?" It was a solemn occasion. That was the last I thought of it.

Tom: Then a couple years later she had been following me and she approached me. She has done 38 documentaries. She approached me about doing one. I thought, "Man, I thought you had to be dead to have a documentary done about you. They must be lowering their standards or something. I don't know."

Tom: She said, "I'd like to do a documentary about the American entrepreneur. From what I've seen you're the man." I said, "Wow. What an honor." It's been three or four years in the making. It's going to premiere probably in the fall. The trailer is out now. It's beautiful. At Facebook dot com ... Well, maybe you can put it in the show notes or something.

Mike: Yeah. We'll put it in the show notes. Absolutely.

Tom: The trailer. Yeah. It's me and it's a celebration of the American entrepreneur, the American spirit. I just happen to be the figurehead but there's just you and there's thousands of people out there that could be the subject of this. It was a great honor to be featured in that.

Mike: That's very cool. Now the show you're working on busting scams. If somebody said, "Wait a second. You just said that if I'm getting you to do something I want you to do, you call it manipulation [inaudible 00:09:52] What's the difference in that and a scam?"

Tom: Well, the difference in that is that the person that is the scammer is manipulating you for the purpose of robbing you in some fashion. That's a whole different ... I mean, that's diametrically opposed to what I'm talking about with protecting people.

Mike: Right.

Tom: That's the whole thing is taking advantage of people. I mean, I think we've worked the figures up. 120,000 people, elderly people, last year lost their homes from the Jamaican lottery scam. They thought they were taking advantage of. They thought they won the lottery. They have to send the tax money in advance and, boom, there's no lottery and they couldn't make their house payment.

Tom: A lot of younger people ... The reason I'm having a little trouble getting the show sold is because it's not in the demographic ... The elderly people are not in the demographic that TV likes. I try to explain to them, "Look, the young people are going to lose their inheritance if they don't teach and pay attention to their elders being taken with scams." They kind of got that. They told me for sure, don't quit your day job, because it's Hollywood, right?

Mike: Right. Right. They're selling to a certain audience.

Tom: Yeah. Yeah.

Mike: We talked about this just a moment ago. You believe in excellence in everything you do, whether it's the documentary or a TV show. How do you feel that excellence and respect do go hand in hand? In my heart, I think, "Well, of course they go hand in hand because excellence requires you to respect your self and your mission and what you're doing."

Tom: Well, excellence it also has hidden benefits. For instance, when I got started in speaking 1991, I had come out of a crazy entertainment company. I've had a lot of fun businesses in my life. A lot of people said, "Hey, you're better than a lot of people that have been charging $4000 and $5000." I said, "Well, I don't know anything about hotels ..." I was doing parties, birthday parties and stuff. I said, "I better study and learn how to be a speaker in hotel rooms and ..."

PART 1 OF 3 ENDS [00:12:04]

Tom: I better study and learn how to be a speaker, and hotel rooms, and corporations, and all that stuff. So I started studying like crazy and my library in here, I have probably 200 books on public speaking, every tape that was ever made, everything from NSA. I've got all of it. And so I started doing it just to make myself better and so that I could really compete in the speaking world. And, where excellence comes in, and this is what my dad taught me, he said when you're excellent people will notice. And so again I'm not trying to blow my horn but I got so good people started begging me to teach them how to be good, as a good speaker. And that led me to write the Wake 'em Up speaking book, the Wake 'em Up video professional speaking system, amazing public speaking took me a whole different route.

Tom: Fast forward to 1994 when the commercial internet came along and I said, "Oh are you kidding me? It's hard enough to sell my stuff across the street let alone around the world from my desktop. I'm going to figure this out." So I started studying like crazy, didn't make a nickel for the first two years. Got good at it. Got some good training in '96. Four years later I was a multimillionaire and people were begging me to teach them this stuff, again trying to be excellent for me and respect me and what I can do for the world, showed other people that hey this guy is good. So it led me into this internet training path. I never planned on being Mr. Internet Guru, ever. I just wanted to sell my stuff around the world.

Tom: So all of this is trying to be excellent for yourself shows such a massive respect for yourself and for the medium that you're learning, other people get inspired by that and so I believe that's a form of respect for them.

Mike: Well I think there's also a respect in there that you were going to learn everything you could to be successful and then you sold people how to do that because you did it.

Tom: Exactly. I wasn't selling a book report.

Mike: Because for instance in the speaking industry there can be people who are barely speaking charging people a lot of money on how to be a professional speaker and that's not common but it happens and people need to be aware of like, "Whoa whoa whoa, you need to be watching who you're learning from there, that might not be the best resource." Where you were saying, "No I'm going to ace this myself, and then teach others how I aced it."

Tom: Without even thoughts of teaching people. I want to do it extremely well because my dad, and I remember my dad I'm 10 years old he came from Syria back in the early 1900s he put the first electric light bulb in Carnage Pennsylvania, he had his own electrical contracting company at 13 years old at Carnage Pennsylvania. And I was, remember watching him one day, he was wiring a box and I said, "Dad why don't you just cut the wires across on an angle, save some wire." He looked at me like I'll smack you. He said, "You crazy? I'm going to make it perfectly lined up so that somebody looks at this job they'll know a professional did it." Boy do I, I'm getting goosebumps, good pimples, I remember it vividly. He said, "And also if somebody has to work on this later, it will be easy for them to work on. So don't you ever do something that's not great."

Tom: We were blue collar, total blue collar. But I'll never forget that and that's the way I've lived my whole life.

Mike: I love that, that you for sharing that. How do you think, or what's way to make sure you're living with respect in that everyday life. That's a great way in work, make sure everything I do is with excellence.

Tom: Well to me, is that along the topic of respect, you will never see me at a restaurant being all snooty with my black Amex card and giving the waiter or waitress some kind of, or treating them like they're dirt. You will never see that. In fact if you were sitting there with me and doing it, I'll leave and hell with you, because you're not the person I want to be around. That person is doing a good work and doing whatever they're life is and trying to take care of me and give me respect there's no way I'm going to lord over them. So that's just an every day example of treat everybody with respect.

Tom: There's another one. There's a student I have, I was speaking at a big event, nobody would talk to this guy. He was dressed like some kind of halfway hippy, halfway Indian, feathers hanging off, he had no teeth. I don't know. And nobody would talk to him. And I'm standing by there and he just started asking me questions and I'm happy to talk to him. He ended up being one of my best customers. He's a best selling author on some off beat topic and nobody would talk to him because he looked funny. So, that's not the way to treat people.

Tom: I mean I'm very fortunate, you're fortunate, and everybody deserves respect. You know what, even people, rotten people deserve respect. I remember, I've been a lifelong self defense and martial arts practitioner, and I remember studying with an Aikido guy back way, way years ago, and this is one of these guys that had to go to Japan for two years to hold a bow. And he had to pull the bow for two years before they let him have an arrow. That's serious stuff. And he was teaching me this thing called an S-Lock one time and it's like, you could really put a hurt on somebody. And he says Tom you hold it like this and then you bow to the person, show respect to your enemy. Of course they're screaming bloody murder and that stuck with me too. Even your enemies. You can respect, you can't let them take advantage of you but you have to respect them.

Mike: Yeah we talk about this in the US Military ...

Tom: Were you in the military?

Mike: No I didn't serve in the military but I work with the military. I'm working with the military. The Geneva Convention clearly states that if you run across the enemy and they are in dire need of help and you are safely able to help them, it's your responsibility to help them because all human beings are to be treated with dignity and respect and a big reason for that is prisoner's of war, if ours are captured they are treated with dignity and respect, which means we have to treat others with dignity and respect.

Mike: So whenever somebody comes to me and goes well not all people deserve dignity and respect, well yeah they all do. The moment you think they all don't, means you think you're above certain people. That's not living from a space of respect that's living from a place of arrogance, there's a difference.

Mike: And you've talked about in fact, when somebody pushes your limits of respect, what do you mean by that? What do you mean by when somebody pushes your limits of respect?

Tom: Well, when you come from a place of power and respect for others you can recognize very easily when somebody doesn't have that attitude, right. And so without, and it all comes from probably my self defense and martial arts study in that ... Well there's a guy I can't think of his name right now but he has a program called You're Dead and You Don't Even Know It, and somebody is getting in his face and he is thinking of the 100 different ways he can just tear this guy to pieces and I have the same kind of skill, not at good as this guy, but ...

Tom: And so when you have the kind of feeling, that I could do this to you but I, there's something in your system that doesn't deserve it, something happened to you to make you like this and as long as you don't cross the line I'm going to treat you with respect and treat you with, I don't want to say disdain I don't know the word for it, but I'm going to feel sorry for you rather than get all up and say, "Let's go buddy." That's what weak people do.

Tom: So coming from that power, you could say they didn't reserve it, deserve it at that moment for what they were doing but as long as they don't cross the line and hurt somebody that's innocent or cross the line to cause me harm there's no reason for me to escalate it. I'm going to deescalate it and I'll walk away. If people are saying, "Oh you big sissy," well I saved that guy's life pretty much so I'll live with that.

Mike: Yeah it's describing really leading with compassion and empathy over bullying or domination. Right? Because you have the ability to dominate in that moment but you decide wait there's got to be a reason this person is coming from this place. Something has triggered this behavior, somewhere. And that's so important because I run into people traveling the world doing this work and who'll say well you know you can't just do that for everyone and you have ... This one person I met they're so bad, yeah but how do you get there?

Tom: Yeah exactly. I had good parents, I had you know a shirt on my back, food, you know, and some of these people I mean I did some fundraisers for these, I did a fundraiser, I raised a whole load of money for a bunch of homeless kids, homeless is considered you have a different place to live or no place to live every 30 days, for kids. I didn't have that. So when those kids grow up there's going to be some scars and it's going to come out in certain ways and so I just have to think man I had it good as long as they don't hurt me or hurt somebody innocent I got to say wonder, how they got there. What happened to them to make that happen.

Mike: Yeah and I think that's so brilliant to recognize, I had it so good. And I think what happens is when you're in a position of, and that's the reference to privilege, where those kids didn't get control over that. We also didn't get Control, those of us who feel we were raised in a stable home with wonderful loving parents. We didn't get to chose that, that's what we were born into. They didn't get to chose their situation. And we're going to have different negatives out of our loving home. There are negatives that we're going to miss out, we're not going to see things that others, somebody would have saw coming from a different home. There's going to be pluses and minuses to that and to say, "Well I made it okay," well yeah but you made it under very different circumstances than that person made it. So I think it's so brilliant that you brought that up. For you, when you hear the word respect what does it mean?

Tom: Well it's ingrained so much in me in that I'm not going to dominate the conversation, I mean just, I like that I'm a pretty simple guy, bring things down to just the, like I said I came from the sticks and a handshake meant something. So if I'm at a party, even though I'm Mr. Big Shot Speaker and I'm known everywhere I'm not going to stand there and talk about myself. I want to know about you. I want to show respect to you by bringing out you and what you've been doing and honestly not looking over your shoulder to, who's more important than you. That's a simple every day, I like to bring the every day things, how you can show respect and that would be a show up respect is ask the other person what they've been doing. And you can learn something from doing that. So, to me it's more of the every day little things.

Tom: In fact when people ask me what religion I am, I really confuse them. I say, "I'm Poseidon." Poseidon? They're looking at their friends like, "What I've never heard of that, that must be some cult or something." I say, no back in the old days there was a move called the Poseidon Adventure, they have a remake lately but the originally was Gene Hackman and Shelly Winters on this ship that was kind of like the Titanic ...

Mike: I remember it.

Tom: Alright, well Gene Hackman, I was much younger then, I don't remember what year it was, but he was on stage, excuse me, on deck, doing a sermon and he said, "You take the little piece of God in you and do good for people," And that was like a sledgehammer to my head. I'm thinking you cannot go too far wrong with that attitude in life. And from that moment on that's

PART 2 OF 3 ENDS [00:24:04]

Tom: With that attitude in life and from that moment on, that's been in my mind. That's my religion, that's my spiritual guide, is take the little piece of God in you, do good for people. I don't go to church every Sunday, I'll admit that. You'd have to get maybe a lightning rod if I got near it, but take the little piece of God so that's respect for doing good things. If you have the attitude, I'm going to try to do good for you before I do good for me. That's another thing my dad taught me, give before you get. So all of these little things are everyday things that I live and I'm attracted to people that live like that because it shows respect all the time, not just when it's convenient.

Mike: Is there a time in your life where you can you remember, where you failed to give yourself respect and the lesson you got out of that experience?

Tom: Yeah. I think it was the time I went to college on a football scholarship to West Baygon Virginia University and at that time, I mean all the time, from the time it's midget football till everybody could kill you at that level, that level of athleticism, so I'm working out like crazy. And then when I got out of that, it was like, "Oh, my God, I never want to see a weight room again." I mean it's 15 straight years of that, two a day exercise, all that stuff. And so I let my weight. I went up of 360 pounds or something so I don't think I was paying much respect to myself there and I struggled with that a lot over the years.

Tom: I had some trouble with my mother was, my dad was great, my mother not so much. But I got a handle on it now only by finding a certain kind of diet. I'm on a ketogenic diet, which is extremely low carbs, high-fat, which is opposite. Again, look at me, opposite of everything else all the time but it's the only thing that's worked so I dropped about 100 pounds and so I got a good handle on that now, but that was a long period of really not respecting the, luckily I got good genes from my dad and a strong foundation of working out for 15 years like a maniac. So I'd say that's my biggest obvious one.

Mike: Well, and I noticed the difference right away when, for those who are listening, Tom and I can see each other because we always do these shows also on YouTube so you can watch that. As soon as I saw you, I noticed. Wow, I said, in my mind I'm like it looks like Tom has lost a lot of weight.

Tom: Yeah.

Mike: But what I think is beautiful about that is it was a choice you made to respect yourself, to take that journey.

Tom: Yeah, it took a long time to do it and that's the thing about things, folks. All these aren't always easy. I mean, it might be time when your steak is cold, you want to give that waiter or waitress some guff, but you got to hold back and you got to say, you got to have your own self respect to say, no, I'm not going to make a fool of myself and embarrass that person over a steak that I probably ate too much already. So the delayed gratification, our friend that put us together recently, Caroline De Pasada, you knew her dad, right?

Mike: Absolutely.

Tom: Yeah. He's the one that made that famous, that marshmallow study about delayed gratification. And so for those that don't know, they showed these little kids some marshmallows and said, "Hey, we'll give you one if you don't eat it in 15 minutes, we'll give you two." And then most of the kids ate it and some didn't. And they followed them over a period of years. All the ones that had the delayed gratification we're successful and everything. And then the other ones were having problems. So I think it's the same thing with respect. In this case, I had to fight a long time to get that one piece of my life that wasn't working right to respect myself and had I given up or quit too soon, where would I be? I'd probably be in death row from a heart attack or something or diabetes or who knows. So sometimes it takes longer to realize the respect that you want to give yourself or others.

Mike: Well, and I appreciate that because I think when people hear these conversations they think, "Oh, he's got it all." Right?

Tom: Oh yeah.

Mike: Right. That's the mistake, that because of this level of success, and they have these messages. They've lived by of respect. They've got it all. What they don't realize is no matter where we're coming from, there's some area we could be better at that we don't give the same kind of focus, respect of that we do other areas. And so it's constantly looking at our whole picture and saying, where is that happening now for me? Because it's happening somewhere, right? There's so many balls in the air.

Tom: And you can always get knocked in the face. In 1988, I was living in a vacant house on a mattress. I don't want to say like a country music song. My dog got run over or my truck got stolen. But I had my nightclub when I had a nightclub for six years. Then the drinking age went from 18 to 21 in a college town. I was going to be a millionaire before I was 30, wiped out, lost $400000 and I was playing racquetball, tore my achilles tendon and a partner I had had not paid the health insurance. So I'm living in a vacant house on a mattress watching a black and white TV and a lot of your viewers don't even know what that is. And so I got knocked in the face really good. But that's when your true colors come through when things don't go so well, what do you do? Do you get back up, do you fight or do you give up? And so I had enough respect then. And I got all kinds of bizarre stories. I was watching candid camera on TV and you know Juliet Funt,

Mike: I remember. Yes.

Tom: She's from NSA. Well, her dad was Allan Fund from candid, and when I was laying there living off credit cards, busted up and had nowhere to go. I was watching candid camera on this black and white TV and that's when I got the idea for the entertainment company called Prank Masters that I moved to DC and that got worldwide publicity and got me into the speaking business. And then I ran into Juliet. And I'm getting goose pimples again. Ran into the Juliet at NSA and I thought, "Oh my God, I'd never be able to thank her dad." So I mentored her for a while just to the payback for that idea, that little spark that somebody else gave me because I was able to keep my eyes open in the face of adversity. And that's when your true colors show through. And that's sometimes the hardest part.

Mike: I love it. And you have two books that you really recommend one is The influence the psychology of persuasion by Robert Cialdini. And then-

Tom: It's pronounced Cialdini.

Mike: Oh, I've always pronounced that wrong then. So I appreciate that. Yeah. And the other book is Last conscious by Alain Buris.

Tom: Yeah. Buris.

Mike: Buris there we go thank you.

Tom: That's a man by the way, because it's spelled A-L-A-I-N and I thought it was the girl for years until I met him. It's a guy. It's a French spelling, but the influence of psychology persuasion is when we began this conversation with about manipulation and persuasion kind of going hand in hand. One's negative connotation one isn't but that is, I've read that book seven times because that is the way you can really get your products and services out there and get people to buy them. But again, because you know you're going to take care of them and help them.

Tom: The other one is completely opposite the other end. You better not be faint at heart if you read it. It's a book about a friend of mine and it's a book about a sniper from the army who decided to go after pedophiles, so it's a whole different thing, but again, it was that pedophile who knows where he came from, but there came a point when you had the draw the line and couldn't let him hurt children anymore. So even though you have to have some respect, some people cross that line and have to be stopped. So it's a completely different ends of the spectrum.

Mike: Yeah. And to stop someone from doing harm is not failing to respect to them.

Tom: Right.

Mike: In fact, you would argue the opposite-

Tom: You're respecting everybody else that-

Mike: And them by saying you can't do this, this is not acceptable, out of respect I'm going to take action now. Yeah. And so I want to thank you, Tom. This has been. We've gone all over, which I love and explored different areas. So thank you so much for joining us today. And for our listeners who want to make sure they can dive into this conversation so they can go to Facebook, look up The Respect podcast, discussion group and dive into this conversation. So thank you very much Tom for joining us.

Tom: My pleasure. Good to see you again.

Mike: Thank you for joining us for this episode of The Respect podcast, which was sponsored by The Date Safe project @datesafeproject.Org. And remember you can always find me at Mikespeaks.com.

PART 3 OF 3 ENDS [00:33:03]

Listen as Neen James shares specific skills for paying attention in our lives and how vital paying attention is to respect. Neen shares with host Mike Domitrz insights and strategies people can use in their personal and professional lives.

* You are invited to join our community and conversations about each episode on FaceBook at https://www.facebook.com/MutuallyAmazingPodcast and join us on Twitter @CenterRespect or visit our website at http://www.MutuallyAmazingPodcast.com**

Watch the full video footage of the episode at:https://youtu.be/iJ5vLXVVkZs

SCROLL DOWN TO READ THE TRANSCRIPTION

*BIO of NEEN JAMES*

Neen James is the author of nine books including Folding Time™ and her most recent, Attention Pays™. In 2017, she was named one of the top 30 Leadership Speakers by Global Guru because of her work with companies like Viacom, Comcast, Cisco, Virgin, Pfizer, BMW, and the FBI, among others.

Neen earned her MBA from Southern Cross University and the Certified Speaking Professional designation from National Speakers Association. She has received numerous awards as a professional speaker, is a partner in the international education company Thought Leaders Global, and is a member of the prestigious League of Heroic Public Speakers.

Neen is a leadership expert who delivers high-energy keynotes that challenge audiences to leverage their focus and pay attention to what matters most at work and in life. Audiences love her practical strategies they can apply personally and professionally, and meeting planners love working with her – they often describe Neen as the energizer bunny for their events.

With a strong background in learning and development and managing large teams at various corporations, Neen is the perfect fit for organizations who want implementable strategies that will help their employees avoid distractions, stop interruptions, prioritize daily objectives and say 'no' to requests that steal time and focus from real goals and priorities.

Oh, did we mention that Neen is Australian? Why does that matter? Well, it means that she's a bit mischievous, is pretty witty and a little cheeky. She also considers herself an unofficial champagne taste tester … and a really slow runner.

*Links:* www.facebook.com/NeenJamesCommunications https://twitter.com/neenjames https://www.linkedin.com/in/neenjames Blog: http://neenjames.com/blog/ http://instagram.com/neenjames https://www.youtube.com/user/AussieNeen Neen website: http://neenjames.com/

*Recommended Books:* Thought Leaders Practice by Matt Church and Peter Cook Attention Pays by Neen James

Get SAMPLE CHAPTERS from Neen's Book: Attention Pays (download)

READ THE FULL TRANSCRIPTION of the EPISODE HERE (or download the pdf):

**IMPORTANT: This podcast episode was transcribed by a 3rd party service and so errors can occur throughout the following pages:

Mike: Welcome to the respect podcast. I'm your host, Mike Domitrz from MikeSpeaks.com, where we help organizations of all sizes, educational institutions, and the US military create a culture of respect. And respect is exactly what we discussed on this show, so let's get started.

Mike: In this episode we have the amazing, incredible Neen James who's also a friend of mine. I'm going to give you a little background on Neen, so that you know as you're listening to her or if you're watching this on YouTube, you're watching the actual video. She's the author of Folding Time and her latest book, Attention Pays, which we're going to be talking about today. They're both available in bookstores around the world.

Mike: And for over two decades, Neen has been advising some of the coolest companies in the world, including Viacom, Comcast, Paramount pictures, and even the FBI on how to improve their strategic planning, communication and leadership development. When she's not speaking, you might find on the back of a Harley, you may also find her running. She's originally from Sydney, Australia. Now a proud US citizen. We're going to welcome speaker, and she says, insanely slow runner, but I think she's a tough critic on herself. Neen James, thank you, Neen for joining us.

Neen: G'day, Mike. What a treat to get to serve your listeners. When you say things like two decades of working with clients makes me feel ancient, but if people are listening to this, they probably think I sound like I'm five. I promise I'm significantly older than that.

Mike: Well, you're still young, that's for sure. Well, I'm thrilled to have you on. You talk all about paying attention. So, let's start there, Neen. What does that mean? Your book is Attention Pays. So if you could provide a little background on what attention means.

Neen: To me, attention is really three things. Let's look at it in three ways, maybe. There's three ways we pay attention in the world personally, which is really about who deserves our attention. So that's about being thoughtful and respect is such a big part of that. The second way is professionally, which is about what really deserves your attention and that's being productive. And the third way is how are we paying attention in the world, which is really about being responsible. So it's personally, professionally and globally.

Neen: That's the three ways I believe we pay attention in the world, and the ones that I think would probably be most interesting to your listeners today is personally and professionally. Who deserves your attention and what deserves your attention, because that way you show up in the world has a ripple effect across the planet.

Mike: Alright, so let's dive in there. And I think a lot of our listeners are activists also, so even globally could be an interesting conversation to go there. So let's talk about personally, how does, how does it show up personally and how does respect play a role in that journey?

Neen: Well, think about how disrespected we feel when someone's on their cell phone and they're not paying attention to us. Imagine how disrespected people feel when they're in a conversation with someone and you're looking beyond their shoulder for someone more interesting to speak to.

Neen: So I think respect is vital. I learned this lesson from my five year old friend. Donovan. He and I were in this very heated debate about like who is cooler was it Superman or Batman? Which is obviously very important when you're five. And at one point he got so frustrated with me, because he didn't think I was listening to him and he jumped into my lap. He grabbed my face with these tiny little hands and he said, "Neen, listen with your eyes."

Neen: And I think the greatest way to show respect to someone is to look them in the eye. The gift of our attention is such a beautiful sign of respect. And so I think when it comes to personally paying attention, the first and easiest thing that all of us can do that costs absolutely no money is to look up, is to look people in the eye, look up from our devices to look someone in the eye in a conversation. That's a beautiful sign of respect. And so what I want to encourage our listeners to do is can they listen with their eyes more?

Mike: I love it. We used to teach that when I was coaching, especially young basketball players, you'd say, "Hey, if I can see your eyes, then I know you're listening. If I can't see your eyes, I might assume you're not and that can feel disrespected."

Mike: And it just helps them know, oh, look at coach or at whoever it is. Here's the challenge a lot of adults have, particularly people like myself who can have that crazy energy in their brain. How do you help them stay focused on the eyes without going into creepy zone? Right?

Neen: I love that.

Mike: So, because, because there's this balance, especially when you're like at a conference and there's people going by and you feel like, well there's somebody going by. I don't want to be rude. So how do you balance that out?

Neen: You know, this is a skill I had to teach myself, Mike, because I love people. Like if I walk into a room, I assume everyone wants to play with me. And so there's already so many people that I want to see. But what I've had to be able to do is to block out my field of vision, meaning if you and I are in a conversation, I have to stay really focused on you, so I'm not looking at all those other people who you and I know ... We go to this industry conference, you and I and you know that it is like the attention span of like a squirrel because everybody's interrupting and wants to see you. It's like once a year, it's a big love fest, so that's actually one of the hardest places to do this. But there's little things that I've learned, for example, being able to listen in and to actually not try and work out what my question is and here's what I mean by that.

Neen: So often in a conversation, we're listening to respond instead of listening to listen. And so what I'm trying to teach myself more and more to do is to listen to your question, allow the pause, and then be thoughtful in my response. So instead of thinking, "Oh, I know what to say," or finishing your sentence or interrupting you, I've had to learn very much about to listen to listen, not listen to respond.

Neen: And I was a constant interrupter and it's still something that I work on because it's something I know about myself. I get so excited I want to contribute to the conversation or I want to give you a solution or I want to answer your question and I really have to shut up. So the best thing to do if you want to be showing respect to shut up, be quiet. Just listen.

Neen: Now without that being creepy, the other thing that I've had to realize is by being able to be attentive then after the pause is I think, well, what's a really cool way to show them that I am respecting their time? Is it a question? Is it a comment? Is it a nod? Is it a followup? Is it an action I need to take?

Neen: Sometimes it might even be as simple as saying, "Did I hear you say, is this what you mean?" Or I might say, "Can you tell me more about that?" And so what I'm trying to do is engage in that point in the conversation. What I've also realized, especially at conferences is I need to write things down. I am a person who seems to remember better when I write things down, so just like before our call today, I said to you, "Hey, if you see me look down, I'm writing things down," I'll do the same thing with someone and what I've also learned over the years, especially working with so many mentors that I have, is taking notes is also a sign of respect.

Neen: And I had a mentor early in my career and he said to me, "One of the things I like about you is you always write things down," and what it was telling him is what he was saying was important for me to want to record. So an easy sign of respect, when you're paying attention, is to write things down.

Neen: Now when I have worked with large companies on their customer experience and how do they accelerate attention, I will often tell team members, "Tell the client you're writing it down because it's that important," so that way the client feels safe, the client feels respected, the client feels heard. Here's the thing, Mike. Attention? It's all about being seen and it's all about being heard and if we can achieve those things, everyone feels so much more deeply respected.

Mike: Absolutely, and I think you see this relationship struggle in a lot of spousal relationships that when they're having a disagreement or a conversation that could become a disagreement, they're already counter-arguing before the person's completed the thought, which leads to a horrific argument because then they say, "You didn't hear the end of what I said because you were already not listening."

Mike: So it's very common that we see that and I always think to myself, when you exercise this attention skill, if I'm really listening, I'm going to think of what's a question which is, I love that you gave some examples of that ... What's a question I can ask based on everything they're sharing with me? So I can't ask that until the end because they could throw a twist at the end and thinking

Neen: That's right. And think about, you Karen have been married, like forever. Andy and I have been married like, my entire life, pretty much. And so, you know, this year we will celebrate 29 years at the time of recording that we've been married. Now when we were first married, we were married very, very young obviously. And one of the things that we did was we also did this marriage counseling course, not because we were going to become marriage counselors, but what we realized is we were the first to get married amongst all of our young friends, and so we had this responsibility in our church community where people coming to us because they will like starting to get married. And we were kind of first.

Neen: And so we became marriage counselors. And what was really good about that was this valuable skill of listening, being able to paraphrase and understand if you're really getting to the heart of everything.

Neen: And I think in relationships, you know, we have some guidelines in our house. They're very simple, but they show respect. For example, my husband and I do a lot of teleconferences. Our clients are often virtual and you know, he travels significantly and so do I. And so we have this guideline that all conversations finish in the garage, meaning if I'm in a teleconference, I will sit in the car and finish the call so that when I walk into the house, if he's home, I can look him in the eye and say hi, right?

Neen: We also have another guideline that says we don't talk between walls, which means if he's in the kitchen and I'm in the lounge room, we don't shout out requests to each other because that's not very respectful. There's no eye contact involved and you never hear what people are saying. I don't try and talk to him while there's a show on. I wait for a commercial or I asked him to pause or can I have his attention because what I've learned is it's so much more easier if we say to someone, "Hey, I need your attention for a couple moments." Or, "When you have time, can we talk about this?" And so I think in our relationships, whether it's with our little people, with teenagers-

PART 1 OF 3 ENDS [00:10:04]

Neen: And so I think in our relationships, whether it's with our little people, with teenagers, with our parents, or with our partners, being able to ask for their attention and tell them it's important, instead of assuming it's a good time, assuming they're ready to hear your question, and then assuming they have time to answer you. I think we have to ask for permission more, and you're a huge advocate for this with all the work you do with The Date Safe project. You know exactly what I'm talking about.

Mike: Yes, well, and I've always loved, because you and I have discussed this before, the no between the walls discussion, because I think that's something that so easy to fall into, and we have fallen into it, Karen and I have fallen into it. I remember you the first time you said that, I said, "That's brilliant." Because I'll often be feeling like that, like I don't want to talk across the room, or I don't even want to text while you're driving home. I want you to talk to me when you drive home. I'm on the road enough. I have enough text conversations.

Neen: Right.

Mike: I want to have person to person conversation. It means a lot more to me. So I love that. I think that's a great example. And I love that you talk about the fact that being seen and being heard are so important to paying attention. We always talk about, in the respect world, same with when we talk with corporations and organizations about respect, is this idea of also feeling that they care, right. Because I can listen to you, give you full attention, but that doesn't mean I'm actually caring about what you say.

Neen: That's true.

Mike: I can play the role of paying attention-

Neen: That's true.

Mike: ... without caring. Caring forces me to think about your feelings, what you're going through, and to engage with that. Would you agree with that, or ... ?

Neen: I would. Last night, I was watching the movie Ladybird, and it's a movie that's popular at the time of this recording, and there was a conversation between a mother and daughter. They were talking and the conversation was along the lines of paying attention, and she said, "Isn't love and attention the same thing?"

Neen: I think that when you show someone attention, you are caring, because in our crazy, busy, distracted, insane world that we all choose to live in, and in the crazy town that is my head traffic, and everyone else's, when you add that on top, the very fact that you stop, pause, and pay attention to someone, I think shows a level of care, and I think we can do this more and more every day.

Neen: For example, I want to challenge listeners, when they order their coffee, can they look their barista in the eye, use the barista's name, and thank them for their coffee instead of just constantly ... people are just living life like this on their devices, right. When you're going to pay for your groceries, or you're paying the toll as you go through, can you look someone in the eye and thank them for the job that they do? When you're in a restaurant or a café, can you thank your server, look them in the eye, find out their name, use their name in the transaction?

Neen: These are all very simple ways to show that you care. I want it to be intentional attention, not transactional attention, and I think what you're talking about, and playing the role, to use those brilliant words, it's transactional, right. It's just you and I, not even really engaging. You sort of feel obliged to do something, whereas I'd rather people move from transactional to intentional attention. That's what we talk about in Attention Pays.

Mike: Well, and that's why I wanted to bring it up, because there are people who are tactical and they fail to understand the connection. They think, "Oh, I just need to take those steps and then they'll feel like they're being paid attention to," not understanding, no, you have to actually pay attention. You can't have one without the other.

Neen: I also think, Mike, that attention as word gets a bad rap. I think social media and some of the celebrities and personalities who are craving and desperate for attention, I think social media has amplified our attention platform. And so attention as a word really gets a bad rap, and yet, attention as a word means to care for or to notice someone. So when you think about it, I want to make attention a really positive word. I want to start this attention revolution where we start to really pay attention, and it's okay to want attention.

Neen: When you think about this, we crave attention. We learn this skill as a baby, right. We cry, our parents us pick, and then we learn attention. It's that simple. But I think, over the years, attention gets a bad rap, and I want to really change that for people. It's okay to want attention. You don't have to want attention from everyone, just the people who matter to you.

Neen: I think that's a really important thing, too, is if someone you really care about is not giving you the attention that you need, you have to have the courage to say, "This is really important to me." I think that's also respecting yourself. It's respecting what your needs are and having the courage to articulate those to someone else. That takes all kinds of vulnerability, it takes all kinds of bravery, and I know you talk about that in the work that you do.

Mike: So if someone's listening right now, thinking, "Well, this sounds great. My partner needs to be better at this. My co-worker needs to be better at this," right.

Neen: Yeah, it's always my boss or my partner or my kid, never me. Right, right, right.

Mike: Right, it's like when you read a book, "Oh, I know someone who could use this book." Well, yes, you probably, right. We've all done it-

Neen: Sure.

Mike: ... but if somebody is thinking, "Okay, I'm aware that I need to be better at this and I would like my partner to be better at this," or, "I'd like my co-worker or my boss to be better at this," how do you help them ignite the conversation on the importance of attention without talking down, therefore losing attention, or lecturing, therefore losing attention? How do you best case scenario for starting that conversation with someone important to you?

Neen: What I found with working with so many of my clients, whether they're big executives who run billion dollar companies, or entrepreneurs who are a company of one, what we've realized in the work that I do with them is very much getting super clear on what it is that they might be missing and what it is they need, and having language that's not accusing the other person of not doing what they need, but it's coming from a place of saying, "I really need this."

Neen: If, for example, it was your partner, maybe one of the things to talk about would be say, "Hey, when you have some time, I'd love to talk to you about something that's been on my mind." Just seed the conversation. Don't say, "We need to talk," because no one wants to hear that, okay. That's a dangerous phrase. The other thing that is also important in a relationship is know when a good time is to talk. So my honey and I have certain things that we do which are really conducive to talking as opposed to other things, right. It could be that you're going on a long drive or a walk, so seed it first.

Neen: And then say, "Hey, one of the things that I'd really like to talk to you about is how I've been feeling about this. I feel this. It's my feeling, I own it," right. So, "I feel like there's times where I want to have a conversation with you but you're on your cell phone. It would really be important to me if we could stop and have a device free meal." Or, "It would be really important to me if you could look up because there's certain things I need from you." Or, "It would be really helpful to me if ... " And it's all about me, right. This is what I need. It's not about you doing something wrong, it's about me owning why I feel this way. And then coming to some kind of resolution.

Neen: I think what sometimes happens is things ... let's take technology for example. Technology is not the enemy of our attention, we are, but we make technology to be the bad guy. Not really, it's just we, as adults, are the users. I remember once, my husband and I were on this fabulous date and he was on his cell phone. I was like, "Um, I'm much more interesting than your cell phone." I was joking but I wasn't and he started to laugh. It was just the default position, I think sometimes we go to, is if we are not active in the conversation, or we think we're in a meeting and it doesn't really involve us, we default to our cell phone. We check our email. We check our Facebook status. We go and have a look at what's happening on Instagram, not because the person's not interesting, just because they're not engaging us. We don't feel a responsibility to be part of that. We have to change this behavior.

Neen: So there's little things. I brought a cell phone with an actual cover, like you've got to actually open it up, so I can't see anything that goes on on my cell phone. I put it in my bag when I drive, so I'm not tempted to have a look at it. In meetings, one of my clients, what they do, Mark, is they have this basket out the front of the conference room. Everyone drops their cell phone in the basket on their way into the conference room so that they can truly engage and brainstorm for whatever meeting that's about.

Neen: I think if you want to have these conversations with your significant other, with your boss, with your teenager, you've got to work out what's important to you and have the courage to articulate why you need that person to see your point of view, and then come to some sort of mutual understanding of what that might look like. And by the way, I'm a work in progress, just like every one of your listeners. I have not mastered this. I feel like it's a daily thing to choose to pay attention.

Mike: What brought you to this path?

Neen: I've always been obsessed with productivity. I was always the girl in corporate who could get things done, and I always the person who was known to be able to look for very creative solutions to everything. My idea of productivity is off the roof, it's crazy town, right. Now, I have fabulous ideas. I don't implement them all, just for the record. So I was always known for someone who could get things done, I was always obsessed with productivity, but what I realized was, you can't manage time, but you can manage your attention.

Neen: So my body of work is very much all around, how do you truly get more done but in a way that makes more sense? I realized the minutes are going to happen, whether you and I like it or not. We both get 1,440 minutes in a day, but your attention, your attention is something you can control. When I realized it wasn't time I could manage, it was attention, that became the evolution of my work, where I was like, "Huh, as an adult, I can choose who I spend my time with, what I spend my time on, how I spend my time, and then who deserves the attention I have, what deserves the attention that I have, and how am I going to show the world that that's important?" That was the evolution for me, and so it just made sense that attention was the evolution of productivity.

Mike: I have friends who say, "Well, my priority is working out, but I can only get a workout in a week." That would be an example of not really being honest to what you pay attention to, or what you're giving your attention to-

Neen: Right.

Mike: ... because you're saying one ...

PART 2 OF 3 ENDS [00:20:04]

Mike: Pay attention to or what you're giving your attention to because you're saying one thing, but your time does not reflect that. I remember, we have a mutual friend, Sean Stevenson that said, I can tell what your priority is, bar, where you spend your time and your money. Right? The combination of those things.

Mike: So a lot of times, we're lying to ourselves about what we want to pay attention to, not what we want to, but what we are paying attention to. So the real statement should be I don't give enough attention to working out if I'm only working out once a week. That's an honest statement. I don't give the attention to working out that I wish I was giving or that I need to choose to give. And so that's an important distinction for people. Do you think it's a common one people struggle with? Well, I care deeply about, that's where all my attention is, but it's not, it's over on these other distractions they have.

Neen: Yeah. And I think to what you're talking about is very much about respecting yourself. Right? So I think one of the things that happens is we articulate what we think people need or want to hear. So if you're with a friend who's like insanely healthy and you're like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I want to work out like every day but oh, I only have time once a week," because your friend is super healthy and that you're inspired by them. Well that's not really respecting yourself. What I've also learned, especially as I've got significantly older, is that your body has to move. Like you have to put the right things in it. It has to have some sleep. Oh, by the way, you should exercise, right? Whether do you like it or not is kind of irrelevant to respect the body that you've been given for this one planet. God gave you one body, like that's it. Right?

Neen: No amount of pills or anything is going to fix that. And so I think what we have to do is show respect to ourself, which also means being truthful with ourself. It is about here is how many minutes I'm going to be awake today. A small portion of those can be allocated to working out. I would rather someone work out for 15 minutes, Mike, than zero minutes, and so I don't think it has to be like an hour work and I think that's also the trap that people fall into. They say, "Oh, well if I'm going to go for a run, I need to go run for five miles." Well, that's not necessarily the case. One mile is going to be better than no miles. Right? And so one of the things to think about is instead of looking at what everyone else is doing and comparing yourself and looking at what they're doing, look at what you can manage.

Neen: And so you and I both spend a significant amount of time in airports, hotels and convention centers, and you and I have both worked out how to stay healthy on the road, whether it's hotel room workouts, gyms, running stairs, whatever it is that's going to help our body move.

Neen: So I think what happens is people are often lying to themselves and they have to really take pause and say, "You know what? I have this one body on this one planet. It will only take me a few minutes just to pay attention to it," whether it's meditating, yoga, walking. You don't even need a lot of equipment. You can use your own body weight to do things, and so I would encourage listeners to find something that they actually like. I think that's the trick too, Mike. You're doing the workout you don't like, you're not going to give it any attention because it's gonna feel like bleh, but if you find an exercise that actually you look forward to, I think that makes a huge amount of difference because then you will invest your attention.

Neen: I think attention is ... Like Sean, I can look at someone's calendar and instantly know what's important to them because your time and the way you're investing it tells me a lot about who is important and what is important to you. If you or I have a sick loved one or one of your boys is not well, you'll drop everything in order to make them a priority because that's where your attention goes and so the unfortunate thing is often people wait until they get sick or they lose someone they love before they pay attention to what really matters. I don't want that for your listeners, I want them to start paying attention now to who's important, what's important and how are they going to show their attention in the world?

Mike: Well, I love that and so going with that, when we talk about where we're going to show our attention in the world, how respect plays into that becomes important. What we respect, you brought up just now, what we're choosing to respect, or am I my respecting my body? Am I respecting what my values are? How has respect played a role in your life?

Neen: I think for me, respect is multilevel. Having been a corporate girl, I crave respect of my peers. I wanted to be seen as smarty pants. Like I wanted to be known as not just this little, you know, four foot nothing blonde. I wanted to be known for my brain, and so I realized respect was really important to me from my peers, which was through my work product.

Neen: I also realized respect from my husband is incredibly important. I want him to respect the work I do and the career that I've chosen and who I am in the world. I also realized that respect for me shows up in the way that we take care of the planet. So I'm an Australian as you know, even though I am also an American citizen and growing up in Oz, you just go up recycling like it's just such a small country. We take care of everything. We eat organic, we take care of the things.

Neen: And you know, where I lived was in this tiny, tiny town. I was born in this beautiful tiny little town and my aunt and uncle had a beautiful farm. And so I think because I'd been exposed to that so young, I feel like we also need to respect the environment that we are blessed to live in as well. And that means taking care of those resources and recycling in its simplest way or whatever it is for people. So respect for me shows up in multiple ways. It shows up in my personal life that I want to be able to show respect to others and be thoughtful. I want their respect for the kind of work that I do and who I am on the planet. But I also think it shows up in the way we take care of the planet.

Neen: And you know, you don't have to, you know, be a Greenpeace card [inaudible 00:25:24], Tesla-driving person. I mean, I think they're a sexy car, but we can all do something really little. You know, we can recycle our paper. We can not use throwaway water bottles.. There's so many little things we can do to show respect. And I think it just starts with those little ideas everyday of paying attention and being thoughtful as much as you can on a daily basis. To me, respect shows up, I think in lots of different ways.

Mike: I love it. And you have a book that in addition to yours that you really enjoy, you really love called Thought Leaders Practice by Matt Church, Peter Cook.

Neen: Yes. It's one of my favorites.

Mike: Yeah, it's a great book. I've been fortunate to be able to read it. Great book. What do you love about that book?

Neen: You know, I think it's the Bible for running a practice where you want to run a profitable practice. And so to me, I run a practice, not a business and my distinction is very much that I'm never going to sell Neen James Inc., right? It's me. I'm it. Right?

Neen: And so for me, what it taught me was how to systemize profitability across multiple revenue streams. And so the predominant work that I do is keynote speaking like you, but I also run an executive mentoring practice as well. So those two profit centers, it gave me a really great insight in how I could ensure that I had more manageable cashflow.

Neen: The challenge with the lifestyle I've chosen and the industry that I've chosen is it's kind of what we call lumpy billing, right? So some months are great, some months are not. And so being able to learn how to have consistency across the different months about putting systems in place to ensure that I'm really doing my best work and that I'm then outsourcing others. There's so many things. Matt Church also just ... I just read his latest book called Next and he's truly one of the world's greatest thought leaders, I think. And he's always looking for the next thing and the future of things. And that book when I read it, was really helping me map the future that I wanted to create. That's why I love it so much.

Mike: Very cool. And everything you're describing about the practice, being able to set yourself up so there's an evenness requires a lot of attention to detail.

Neen: It does. And it's exhausting. Let me just be super clear with people. If you choose an entrepreneurial career and this, I feel like our chosen career and this one particularly in the world of speaking, so I choose to stand on a stage for a living. It gets no more vulnerable than that, but it also ... There is no greater sense of attention than standing on a stage. It's not actually about me, though. It's about how I stand in service of that audience, but my career is attention. My profession is attention. It's all about attention, but I think attention is about connection, right? And so I think running a business, it's not my favorite thing to do. Let me be super clear about that. But it allows me to have the lifestyle that I love and so what I've also been very good at doing is putting people in around me who are brilliant at attention to detail, right?

Neen: I told you earlier, my idea of productivity is great. My execution is not as strong and so I have people in my life who help me get things done and so I built my practice in a way that I can focus on the things I'm really, really good at: speaking, writing and delivering the product that I do.

Neen: And everything else, we have people around us who can help us do that. Now, when I first started Mike, I couldn't afford to do that. It was just me. Right? So if you're listening to this and you're just starting on an entrepreneurial journey, believe me, it took a long time before I could pay other people to do things.

Neen: So initially I would barter. I would barter their brilliance for my time, so I'd say, "Hey, can you help me set up my QuickBooks? I'll come train your team on how to be more productive in your practice." And so I was constantly trading my time until I could afford to write checks for people to pay them for what it is that they do for me. And so I think you just need to get super creative on what you're going to invest your attention in, in order to get the return that you want.

Mike: I love it. Thank you so much, Neen, for joining us.

Neen: What a treat. Thanks for having me on your show. I love what you're doing in the world.

Mike: Well, I appreciate that. For everyone listening or watching you could find Neen at NeenJames.com. We'll also have all the links to her social media, her book Attention Pays, everything, on the show notes.

Mike: Thanks again, Neen.

Neen: Thanks.

Mike: Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Respect Podcast, which was sponsored by the Date Safe Project at datesafeproject.org. And remember you can always find me at MikeSpeaks.com.

PART 3 OF 3 ENDS [00:29:49]

Abigail Manning shares the key to being aware of others' triggers and how to be more understanding compassionate - living with Authentic Health. In this episode, Abigail and Mike both share specific lessons they teach around the world for living with respect toward others' boundaries and how to recognize abuse.

* You are invited to join our community and conversations about each episode on FaceBook at https://www.facebook.com/MutuallyAmazingPodcast and join us on Twitter @CenterRespect or visit our website at http://www.MutuallyAmazingPodcast.com**

*BIO:* Abigail G. Manning is an Awareness Creator of Authentic Health to prevent and end all forms of Abuse. Having experienced childhood abuse by both of her parents and domestic violence as an adult, Abigail uses first-hand experience combined with her Indiana University Communications double major specializing in cognitive, behavioral and social theories, 5 years of abuse research, $20,000 of therapy modalities investigations and her own unique insights, to teach others how to build Authentic Health. In a positive and pro-active approach, she uses touches of humor to illuminate the challenges of recognizing and understanding the codes, cycles and connections found in unhealthy behaviors including toxic relationships, manipulations, sexual harassment, bullying, child abuse, domestic violence, manipulations, and more. By creating awareness, abuse moves out of the silent darkness where it starts and thrives, into the colorful light of mainstream conversations and creates a brighter future for us all.

*LINKS* https://abigailgmanning.com/ https://www.facebook.com/abigailgmanning/ https://twitter.com/AbigailGManning

*Recommended Books:* Dr. Henry Grayson, Mindful Loving Robin Norwood, Women Who Love Too Much Brene Brown's books especially, Rising Strong

READ THE FULL TRANSCRIPTION of the EPISODE HERE (or download the pdf):

**IMPORTANT: This podcast episode was transcribed by a 3rd party service and so errors can occur throughout the following pages:

Mike: Welcome to the Respect Podcast. I'm your host, Mike Domitrz from mikespeaks.com, where we help organizations of all sizes, educational institutions, and the US military create a culture of respect. And respect is exactly what we discuss on this show. So let's get started.

Mike: And welcome to this episode. Today we have Abigail Manning. Abigail is an awareness creator of authentic health to prevent and end all forms of abuse. With a positive and proactive approach, she brings insights and answers to how we can each lead healthy and happy lives. Abigail, thank you so much for joining us.

Abigail: Thank you so much for having me on your show, Mike.

Mike: I'm thrilled to have you here. Can you give a little background on what it is you do?

Abigail: Sure. As you said, I'm an awareness creator. So what that means is it's a proactive and positive approach to helping others see where maybe they might be lacking in having true authentic health. And the whole reason behind it is because I came from childhood abuse by both my parents and domestic violence as an adult, and as an eight year old, I took a vow in front of a mirror to end abuse. And so this is my next chapter of life, and this is my next mission, is to help others learn the lessons that I have learned, but hopefully a lot easier and faster, quicker, and with a lot more positivity than the way that I learned them.

Mike: And at eight years old, you looked into a mirror and said, "I'm going to end this pattern." I'm not gonna let this cycle repeat, is sort of sounds like you described there. I'm going to make a different path for myself. Where does that come from at eight years old?

Abigail: Right. Well, what it is, is that it was, I devoted myself at that point to love, respect, and kindness.

Mike: I mean, that's mind boggling for a lot of people to hear it and say, wait an eight year old committed to and stayed with it. Right? Because a lot of ... When we're young, we'll go, oh, I have this goal and this dream. I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this, or I'm never gonna do that, and that changes very quickly as we get to teen years or pre-teen years. So what kept you focused?

Abigail: What kept me focused was having firsthand experiences of harm. So I really only have one rule and when I raised my kids, it was do no harm. At all costs, do no harm. And the next best goal is to have love, respect, and kindness for yourself and for others. Now, it doesn't mean that that was easy. It doesn't mean that I didn't understand. I didn't understand abuse. I didn't understand it at all, but I was committed to those values, doing no harm to someone else because I knew what that felt like, and I did not want to do that to anybody else. And what do I want the world to be? How do I want the world to treat each other? I want there to be safety and trust and respect, and for me, those words have always kind of boiled down to love, respect, and kindness.

Abigail: And so unfortunately because I didn't understand abuse, I went through the pendulum swing of marrying someone who is not of great health and being in that marriage for over 10 years, and then swinging out of that. And that's what I mean. I've learned all these different things by going through $20,000 of therapy modalities, and reading, and going through crisis center. PTSD hit me really hard. I was like, okay, I have to really understand this and be able to explain it in a way that I can understand it.

Abigail: And so other people saw that and they started asking me, can you explain to me what you're doing and how it's working so well for you? So from that, I started this company, Create Awareness Change Lives where we go and we speak, and we do workshops and training and keynote speeches and things like that to help others learn what I did along the way, hopefully way back at the early stages, and signs of unhealth and disrespect so we can stop it there and make it into something positive and proactive for all of us.

Mike: Well, I appreciate your openness there because while at eight years old you made the commitment, it took 20 plus years to figure out the journey which is true of a lot of us. In a do no harm philosophy, which I'm a big believer in, when I teach my all day workshops on how to do training on sensitive issues, we talk about do no harm. At the same time, you have to also make sure that you're not doing harm by doing no harm because that can actually happen.

Abigail: Right.

Mike: You can think so much about, I don't want to harm anybody in the room, that you do harm at the ability to impact and to teach and to connect because you're so working in fear of not doing harm. And that's not what do no harm means, but that's what people can interpret it to mean, and you can live it. It sounds like you went through some of that in your own personal life.

Abigail: Correct. I agree that you can't ... We're not a world where we have to be ... I don't want to be in a world where it's overly polite. One of the things that we are is transparent. Transparent can be firm, it can be direct, it can still be polite and kind, but it's no longer a doormat and you don't withhold information. So I help people. One of the realizations that I had was the crisis center told me, "When you do this work, it's not when. You absolutely will trigger somebody else."

Abigail: So it's a matter of knowing you're going into that, giving a space that's trusting and safe for people to really vulnerably feel it because I'm about authenticity, right? Not just the robotic kind of, I mask my feelings, but someone is going to get triggered. How do we help them? Because that's the first step. When you first realize, whoa, I have a problem, or oh, I didn't know that was me, or I didn't think I thought about that word that way, or something.

Abigail: So being triggered doesn't have to be a horrible, bad thing. It can be a realization that this is the first maybe eye opening experience that you're like, I'm ready to be better. I'm ready to be healthy. I'm ready to have control over this and not have it have control over me. Let me flip it into the positive like it's okay, I am going to trigger people, and that is okay, but I have to have the responsibility, which I take very seriously, of letting people know that they can trust me, they're safe with me, and that I truly, truly do care about them and their wellbeing.

Mike: Yeah, and you're not intentionally triggering people.

Abigail: No.

Mike: There are people who do that, right? We see people in the media and in politics who go out and say insightful things intentionally to insight, to trigger in a different way than the kind of trigger we're talking here, but it's a form of triggering. And so you're saying, no matter what I do, someone can be triggered. I'm out of control of that, but I am in control of the atmosphere that I create in which that takes place.

Abigail: Right, and trauma informed approach is really important. So I would never go out of my way or try to ever trigger someone in an unhealthy way, in a harmful way, in overstepping their boundary lines. But understanding that you're going to do that and you're doing it from a loving place, you're doing it from an I care place, and this is the way you're going to have to face it. Because if you don't face the beast, the beast is always going to be there.

Abigail: So I don't care if your beast is addictions, I don't care if your beast is that you're with somebody abusive, or that you are abusive yourself. You've got to face the beast in order to stare it down, understand it, and be able to walk away confidently from it. And you can do all that in a very healthy way. So the question is always, am I being helpful and healthy or am I being hurtful and unhealthy? That's my measuring, and hopefully I'm never hurtful to somebody, and I'm always been helping and healthy for them.

Mike: So how do you help somebody? How are you supportive of someone? We get suggested questions for our shows and the one question is, how do I treat people who have been through abuse with respect and not pity? So how do I give that person that respect and pity? Because we see it all the time. In my line of work from the stage, I'll tell people the number one mistake I see people say to survivors is, "Oh, I'm so sorry," which is meant as loving and caring, completely comes off as total pity.

Abigail: Right.

Mike: I'm so sorry. And it feels like I'm so sorry that happened to you. It didn't happen to me. I'm so sorry it happened to you. And how you know it's pity is because the majority of the time the survivor will respond with, oh, it's not your fault, which means they're now counseling you for your reaction to them, which tells you it's pity. That's a dead sign that they felt pity right there. It was not a moment of empowerment.

Abigail: Correct. And that's interesting. I've never thought of pity in that way. What I wanna do is help both sides. So when someone really cares, I don't think they want to do pity. I think they don't know what to say.

Mike: Correct. And that's why giving people precise words is everything in those moments. We do that [inaudible 00:08:54] all the time. Here's exactly the words you can use that can make sure that you are empowering each other and respect and admiration. What do you teach for that?

Abigail: Well, I teach to be authentic. I teach to be honest. I teach that being direct. So having eye contact with the person and saying something like, "Thank you for sharing that," or, "You are so brave," or, "I didn't know, how can I be of support?" Even to me, I see people all the time kind of go, and so I just move on into what I do really quickly because it gives them permission not to have to respond and react. Because we all feel like, oh gosh. I mean, none of us want anybody to be abused.

Abigail: So if you can just come back with, wow, I didn't know. How did you get past it? I mean go to the positive. What could I do to help somebody in the future? Is there anything specific I can do for you? And that's the number one thing. People don't know how to respond. You don't have to know how to respond. Just be yourself. If you're kind, be kind.

Mike: Yeah, and if you can learn language that can help you be comfortable in that, then use it. Like we teach the same thing. We teach, "Thank you for sharing." We'll say, "Thank you for sharing. Clearly you are strong and courageous. What can I do to be of support?"

Abigail: Yeah.

Mike: Because that opens the door. And the reason those three steps are so important. One, thank you for sharing lets the person know, I've come to the right person. Because the fear is, is it okay to share with this person in this moment? That's often a fear for a survivor. Is this a safe person to share? So when you open with, "Wow, thank you for sharing," oh, okay. And then when you say, "Clearly you're strong and courageous because you shared," I mean, that's true. So that's honesty and validation at the same time. Reinforcement is a better word.

Mike: But then to say, "How can I be of support?" They might say, oh no, I just wanted to share. Okay. But they might be like, oh, I just wish there was someone I could talk to. Oh, well have you talked to a local crisis center? Have you talked to ... And you give them options. It creates this exploratory option for them to get the resources and support they deserve, which is so, so important.

Mike: And for anyone listening, this goes to any difficult news someone ever gives you. It doesn't have to be a survivor. Somebody comes up to you and says, "My dad passed away last night." Oh, I'm so sorry. Where do you go from there? You've got nowhere to go from there. Somebody says, "My dad passed last night." Wow, thank you for sharing. Now how can I be of support? Now they see somebody trying to engage not just, let's move on from this uncomfortable situation.

Abigail: I love it. I love it. In fact, I wrote it down because I am a big thank you and please person. Call me old fashioned, but I still really like using thank you and please with people all the time, even people I know, my family and everybody. Just thank you for helping me with dinner or something like that. So that's acknowledgement, everything you said was just, to me, spot on, perfect, and beautiful, and brilliant. To acknowledge, to thank, to prove that you're a safe person, you're a sincere person. I love it.

Mike: I appreciate that. We've always taught it from stage and all my books. We teach that same ...

PART 1 OF 3 ENDS [00:12:04]

Mike: We've always taught it from stage and in all my books. We teach that same statement, because it's just ... People don't have the skill. I love what you said about be yourself and be authentic. Sadly, some people are afraid to do that, because they have been taken as being callous in the past. They feel, "If I'm myself, I could do harm." Well, what if I could give you this little phrase? And if you said it from your authentic self, with these words, it's going to come off as you and be loving, and caring, and supportive.

Abigail: Right. One other thing I'd like to point out real fast, Mike, is that the person who has the difficult thing to explain. Like you said, whatever that happens to be: a death in the family, coming out for the first time talking about abuse, or something like that. That person is coming from a place where they've already been shamed, blamed, judged, isolated, ridiculed, minimized, all of that. They're kind of ... At least in my case, I was very nervous, and I would watch people. The moment that they would kind of like at me like ... like that. Shut it down. This is not a safe place. This person's not going to be able to understand. The turtle pulls its head back into the shell real fast.

Abigail: Just know that when someone comes to you with an act of bravery, when someone looks really strong on the outside or you see them as being very strong or successful or capable or confident, we're all the same in the inside. It's really scary to come forward. Strong people ... I know, because I've been called a strong person more than once in my life ... It's scary to feel weak. It's scary to feel not in control of how someone's going to respond to you, not that we can control it. Just know going into that that's why I like telling people to be really authentic and just your connection with that person. A lot of times you don't know that person, but it could be just someone you've met. It happens to me all the time. I will start with a compliment for them of like, "I'm honored that you told me."

Mike: Yes. Yes, because what you said there is important about the concept of that took them strength to share with you, whatever the difficult news was. So to honor that just means the world to people. We should be honoring that. Now you talk about something that is what I've been doing for decades, which is to ask first. Ask first. You talk about it specifically when it comes to hugs. Because in my world, people think, "Well, Mike teaches us to ask for a kiss," or, "Mike teaches before sexual intimacy to ask." But you say, "Why should I have to ask before I hug someone." You teach in your work why that's important. Let's go to there. Why is it respectable to ask for a hug versus just assuming, "Look, I'm giving you a hug. That's loving. That's supportive"? What's the harm in me just giving them a hug?

Abigail: Yeah, right. It goes down to our healthy boundary lines, right? What is healthy for you may not be necessarily healthy for someone else based on their life experiences. For example, if someone ... That was the first step of abuse, let's say. Because that's what I specialize in is preventing and ending abuse. If someone was abused by, let's say, a parent who comes up and the first thing they do is they come up towards you face on, and they put their arms towards you. That person knows they have to go into fight, flight, or freeze mode, so it's unsafe. When our brains get hijacked, we don't know how to respond until we are taught how to respond, until we're taught what those warning signs are. And, what is ours to own versus the other person?

Abigail: Is everyone out to attack you that's going to hug you? No. But until we can get that through our brains and really assimilated it into our bodies and our responses, and we can understand it ... There's different techniques, like EMDR. There's Somatic. There is EFT ... on how we rewire our brain, so that we don't automatically jump into that reactionary fight, flight, or freeze mode. You think you're being friendly and kind, and I think you're ... subconsciously without even realizing it ... coming to attack me. Because some people bury, especially childhood abuse, so far down, they don't even know that that's what it's related to.

Mike: Yes. The word that we often don't discuss here is grooming. This is how the predators often groom their victims and those who would go on to become survivors. For anyone who's listening, what that means is a predator will start with a hug. They'll get very comfortable with that hug. They'll make that hug little tighter and a little longer. Then they move to touching, and they move to other things. But it all began there, so for the survivor ... especially if it has not been addressed, if it is down deep ... there's an immediate moment of, "That's where it all started, and now this person's starting it all."

Mike: Like you said ... I love that you said that ... they might not even be aware of this, because subconsciously this can happen. People go, "Well, that's not my ... I'm not supposed to know what everybody else has been through. I mean, that's just political correctness gone awry." You are about to touch another person's body. If you are going to touch another person's body, it is on you to respect the possibilities of how that could impact them, because it's their body. That's not like you're just saying something from across the room, which can be harmful, but you're literally going to engage another human being's body in some form or fashion.

Abigail: There's three spaces. There's our professional or public space. Then there's our personal space with our friends and stuff. Then there's an intimate space that you would share with a partner, or a child, or maybe an elderly parent, or something like that. That's your intimate space. We say that people aren't really allowed into your intimate space unless you want it, unless it's healthy for you. Why would I assume just because I like a hug, that other people would like it. I always try to, again, honor, respect. I try to respect the other person. I would just say things like ... For the first time meeting them. I have my group of friends, we hug all the time. But there's an understanding, because the first time that we've met, we've said, "Oh, would you like a hug?" Not, "May I hug you?" Because, again, you're coming onto them, but, "Would you like a hug? Are you a hugger?"

Mike: Yeah, that's a great line. I know friends that use that. Myself, I've done it too. They go the handshake hug kind of thing, and you're like, "Are you a hugger?" They're like, "Yeah," so then you know you're good. But if they're like, "No, I'm good," yep, the handshake works. I think what people forget is why are you hugging them in the first place? You believe it will be supportive. You assume. So if the hug is about supportive and/or connection, shouldn't you make sure that will be the outcome?

Abigail: Right, right. Also, maybe conversely, because Authentic Health is really turning that mirror around and looking at it at yourself. I'm not saying hugs are bad. Personally, I love hugs, but other people don't like them, and that's okay. If you're like, "I hug everybody, and I don't even ask." Why? What is it I need? What is the physical touch lacking in my life. What am I trying to express. Maybe question is that so important for me to do that?

Abigail: I had someone in a business setting, never me the person before. She's actually a lawyer. When she came up to me ... I always shake hands the first time I meet somebody, because in our society, that's totally acceptable. It's not awkward ... and I extended my hand. She immediately pushed right past my hand and threw a hug onto me. I took a step back, and I said, "I'm more of a handshaker when I get to meet people." She completely didn't understand. I don't know if she thought we were best friends reconnected.

Abigail: But just watching the body language. We talk a lot about cognitive, social, and behavioral theories. Well, the behavioral theory is if someone's putting out their hand to shake hands with you, they want to shake your hand. Or, they put a hand up to high five, just do the high five. Those verbal and behavioral cues are important to watch for.

Mike: Absolutely.

Abigail: Then ask [inaudible 00:19:55] ask, but you don't ... It's out of consideration. It's just a form of respect, in my opinion.

Mike: Definitely.

Abigail: Don't take it personally if they say, "No, I'm not."

Mike: Yeah, you don't have to cure them. I think that's the other thing that happens. I think people think that, "If I give you enough hugs, you'll be okay with hugs." That's really dangerous and messed up to think, "The more I push your boundaries and disrespect what you want, you'll learn to like the boundaries I'm giving you." If you actually say that out loud, you'll recognize how predatorial that is, right?

Abigail: Yeah.

Mike: We need to help understand it. I'm not saying that I haven't done some form of that when I was younger. Most of us have, right?

Abigail: Oh, absolutely.

Mike: In some form, we thought, "Well, if I do this, they'll get more comfortable ..." Whatever it was. It doesn't have to be hug, touch. But recognizing just how predatorial that is, and how we've been taught to do that. Like, "I'll teach them." No. That's not your job in that moment.

Abigail: Right. I think a lot of times ... and you can tell me from a guy's perspective ... from a girl's perspective, I was taught, "Be kind. Be nice. Give to others." I have a saying of pour love. Pouring love, pouring love on others. That was a strong social message that was given to me that, "Don't make waves. Everyone would be your friend." All of those which are not healthy. In the situation, a lot of times I think women end up hugging each other not necessarily because they want to, but they don't want to appear rude, or unfriendly, or stuck up, or something like that.

Abigail: I wanted to erase that and saying when you own your own Authentic Health ... whatever it is, if it's a high five, if it's a fist bump, if it's a hug ... whatever it is, if you own it, it's okay. Be good with who you are, and not have to worry that you're offending somebody else, and not worry if you offend somebody else by saying, "I prefer this. I don't prefer that."

Mike: Absolutely.

Abigail: By living authentically, it's okay to stay within your own boundary lines, and what feels good, and is healthy for you without worry about what others and outsiders are thinking about you.

Mike: Abigail, what are red flags of a sign that someone is being disrespectful or being abusive?

Abigail: Red flags. Okay. We all have that gut feeling that goes off. We have red flags. We hear warning bells, all of those things. To me, I guess, the difference between those two would be healthy boundary lines. Our definition of abuse that I made up is repeated mistreatment. If people don't remember anything else, if you just remember repeated mistreatment. The rest of the definition is, "Repeated mistreatment where one person uses manipulations to gain and maintain power and control over another person."

Abigail: If someone is being disrespectful, is it repeated? That's the first part of the definition. If it's a one-off, maybe they're being a jerk, maybe they are disrespectful, or something like that. Hopefully by you giving your healthy boundary lines and with a polite, but kind, but firm comeback on something, "I prefer a handshake, not a hug," something like that. Then they will stop it. It's not repeated.

Abigail: Now if they decide to repeated it, "Oh, yeah, there's that Abigail. She ..." and it goes on and on in different ways from emotional, to physical, to sexual, to financial. Different forms of abuse. Different forms of manipulation. Different forms of trying to take your power and control or exert their power and control over you. Then you absolutely know the person is acting abusively.

Mike: Let's pause there, because I love the two words. Repeated mistreatment is very powerful. I think it's also important to acknowledge that it doesn't mean it needs to be repeated for it to have been abuse, right? Because, there could be a one-time situation that is highly abusive.

Abigail: Correct.

Mike: Usually what you're describing here, what we're talking about, is, "How do I know when a situation that I'm regularly in is one of abuse or mistreatment?" versus a one-time situation.

Abigail: Right. A lot of times, a sexual ... that's a sexual assault, which is awful. Nobody ever, ever deserves any form of abuse. No one asks for it. No one deserves it. No-

PART 2 OF 3 ENDS [00:24:04]

Abigail: ... deserves any form of abuse. No one asked for it, no one deserves it. No one, even though you can be groomed or gas lighting into thinking that you deserved it, you had ownership over this. You never did. It's what someone did to you versus what you went out and did to someone else. You were never worthy of being their target. You're right, it doesn't have to be awful or an assault or abusive, but when I use that term, a lot of times it starts really small, so unless it's like you're walking down an alley and you're attacked, right? That's an assault. But a lot of times in the abusive world when you have relationships with neighbors or co-workers or family it always starts small, like you said, they start with a hug, or they start with something, or they start with a lingering touch, if we're talking about sexual harassment.

Mike: Or just not honoring your voice, right?

Abigail: Correct.

Mike: I don't wanna go this far. Let's say it's sexual. I don't wanna go this far. Oh, it'll be fun. What did you not get about I don't wanna go this far? I didn't say whether it'd be fun or not fun, I don't wanna go this far. It's not on the survivor to have to say that either. The moment I said it once, you should've listened, but that's a subtle, and it's a form of somebody starting to show abuse that is likely to say they might not be respecting me as this night goes on, because they're not reciprocating my voice right here and now. Once again, I wanna stress that's not on the survivor to stop the criminal, it's on the criminal to stop being abusive in the first place.

Abigail: Right, and so that is the red flag that you just mentioned. So that, well I set a boundary line and they didn't ... They either didn't acknowledge it and blew right by it, or they made fun of me for it. They ridiculed me for it, or they're like, "What in the world are you talking about?" Stuff like that. I thought you wanted to be my boyfriend, I thought you wanted to be my girlfriend. Just like in sexual harassment, we do some workshops for corporations and government and things like that on what's sexual harassment and if this then that, quid pro quo, it's the same thing. It's not honoring those boundary lines, so just kind of watch because it tends to be small and then a lot of times someone who's abusive is very quick, very practiced and that's those manipulations of coming back and saying, "Oh, I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to do that," or they have some story or something, so just watch for a pattern or really, not even a pattern 'cause sometimes it gets a little too tricky for people to see, just is it repeated?

Mike: Yeah, I love that statement, the repeated mistreatment. It's perfect. Just due to time 'cause this next question we could do 30 minutes on but due to time, what is one or two steps, if somebody's listening is a survivor, of trauma or abuse to help them feel respect towards themselves?

Abigail: Fantastic. Well for me, I would say it's authentic health. Gaining your power and control back where you can have your authentic health where you're not looking for outside confirmation, you really know the patterns and what has happened to you, what your life experience, we're all shaped by our life experiences, so I guess the key would be what has shaped your life experience? What has created your story? What is that negative take or that purple thread running through you that is a lie that is not truth, but you've read that book so many times you believe it actually happened. You've heard that story so many times, you actually believe that's who you are.

Mike: Can I pause just so I'm understanding?

Abigail: Yeah.

Mike: Are you referring to for instance victim blaming, self victim blaming? So somebody's sitting there going, "Had I not done this that night, that wouldn't have happened," and they have played that tape and that tape is causing them to feel blame.

Abigail: That could be their life experience yes, or it could be you see for example, really, really thin anorexic, bulimic people but the tape that they've been told is they're big and fat and ugly. They're on their deathbed believing that their big, fat and ugly when they're really not, right? So we all have our tapes, I'm not smart, you should have seen my brother, he's really, really smart. I'm not the smart one. Things like that. Like, what is your story? That my career's never work out, my love life never works out.

Mike: I love adding the question to that, how's that working for me? Right, so let's say I put the story out in front of myself, I believe this. How's that working for me? It never makes me feel better.

Abigail: Yeah.

Mike: It's not working, right? This story, this negative story I got has never benefited and even if it benefited once, 99 other days it bothers me so it's a negative impact on my life.

Abigail: Right, and a lot of times what I'll say is break it down to simple. Is it healthy or is it unhealthy?

Mike: Yeah, that's perfect.

Abigail: Is this healthy? Is this going to propel me forward to the vision that I have for my life? Is this going to make me a better person tomorrow than I am today or is this unhealthy? Is this gonna continue keeping me in this loop, in this cycle, in this pattern, in this lane and [inaudible 00:29:02] false beliefs. So if you feel like [inaudible 00:29:04] and someone comes in and sweeps you off your feet telling you how smart you are, if you actually own your own ... If you own your life story then you're not swayed by what people may or may not say. They can use those as manipulations.

Mike: Yes.

Abigail: So if you think of yourself as not charming let's say and someone comes in your life and their like, "Oh, you're so charming and you're delightful," and you're like, "Oh wow." They can manipulate you because they're able to find your weakness but when we own our own weaknesses and we own our strengths, that's authentic health.

Mike: Yes and a great example is parenting. Parents who say, "Well, I don't want to tell my kid I love 'em too much," oh yeah? Wait till the kid comes along that does tell them because that kid will ... If they don't believe their loved, that kid will be their new source versus them being their own source. Teaching them to be their own source. Yeah, somebody should say to you, "Oh you're great," and in your mind there should be a little bit of thanks and yes, right? Doesn't mean you have to say it out loud, or you're beautiful or you're great, or you're brilliant and there should be a little bit of thank you and yes.

Mike: We should feel these things about ourselves so we don't ... That's what I loved about what you said there, we don't need them from somebody else because if we need them from somebody else, control goes over to that person to get it. To get what they need, that can be the unhealthy part. You had three books that you told me that you really love, one was Mindful Loving by Dr. Henry Grayson, another was Women Who Love Too Much by Robin Norwood and Renee Brown's books, you especially like Rising Strong. Why these three books?

Abigail: Well I think anything Renee Brown has written I love. I love-

Mike: Same here.

Abigail: ... her attitude and approach and she breaks it down. She inspired me to take what I know and break it down and simplify it and explain it in storytelling formats that make sense and so, that's been a lot of things. It helped me a lot on my path on ... I couldn't stand when I opened up her book and I read the word shame. Ugh, I don't need more shame and blame and anything like that and of course she did a big wonderful twist on all of it and it was really, really helping but again, we started the conversation with about triggering people. So I had to be a little angry with Miss Doctor Renee Brown because she was triggering me with the whole word shame but I'm glad she did and I'm glad I had the fortitude to keep reading through as well as those other books and other therapy and talk therapies and things like that because that's how you feel the beast and you keep moving through it and you get better and you look in that mirror and you're not afraid to look in the mirror.

Abigail: You're not afraid. None of us are perfect, right? I'm supposed to be perfect, authentic health is not being perfect. It's not being great at everything, it's just being true to who we are and willing to look in the mirror and not willing to listen to the whispers of any kind of negativity and by being vulnerable and that's a big strong theme that she has been superior in explaining to people is vulnerability and shame as well as many other things. But those are the reasons why I really like her books and I just love the way she writes too, I think it's fun.

Mike: Yes.

Abigail: [inaudible 00:32:11] for a male's perspective as well as a female's perspective on When You Love Too Much and that's that healthy versus unhealthy. From different people I've put together what I feel authentic health is and both of them I thought from a male perspective as well as a female perspective they did a really good job of showing where that line is between what is good authentic love and what is not, because you have to keep in mind, I wasn't raised with it. I wasn't raised with love, respect and kindness. I wasn't raised with mutually loving parents, I had to figure it out. I watched for it, I looked for it in movies, I watched for it in couples and so I stumbled along trying to learn these things in my own life and through reading books so that I could figure out how to have happy, healthy, successful love in my life.

Mike: Well I think that's a great way to end our show 'cause I think too many people think things like, "Well that should be obvious," but they forget well it's obvious to you 'cause you might have been raised in it or you learned it because of something in your culture, your family. Millions of people have never been taught these lessons so if you're gonna say I'm a compassionate, caring person you need to think of the possibilities of others, which you just brilliantly shared with us. So Abigail, thank you for being with us today. For anybody listening you can find Abigail at abigailmanning.com, we'll have her Facebook link, her Twitter link all on our show notes, and remember if you're listening or watching you can join discussions on this episode on Facebook at our Facebook discussion group called The Respect Podcast Discussion Group. So look that up on Facebook, join us in our conversation. Thank you so much Abigail.

Abigail: Thank you very much. All the best to you.

Mike: Thank you for joining us for this episode of The Respect Podcast which was sponsored by the Date Safe Project at datesafeproject.org and remember, you can always find me at mikespeaks.com.

PART 3 OF 3 ENDS [00:34:08]

Join host Mike Domitrz as he interviews Dr. Chris Kilmartin on the topics of men, masculinity, sexism, #MeToo, and specific ways to speak up. Chris provides strategies and skills for helping everyone move forward to a healthier culture in this episode.

* You are invited to join our community and conversations about each episode on FaceBook at https://www.facebook.com/MutuallyAmazingPodcast and join us on Twitter @CenterRespect or visit our website at http://www.MutuallyAmazingPodcast.com**

BIO of Chris Kilmartin Dr. Christopher Kilmartin is an emeritus college professor, author, stand-up comedian, actor, playwright, consultant and professional psychologist. He retired in 2016 as Professor of Psychology at The University of Mary Washington in Fredericksburg, VA. He holds a Ph.D. in Counseling Psychology from Virginia Commonwealth University and is a licensed clinical psychologist who has a great deal of experience consulting with businesses, college students, human services workers, athletic departments, the military, and counselors. His major scholarly work isThe Masculine Self(5theditionSloan,2015, now co-authored by Andrew Smiler), which has also been translated into Korean. He has also co-authoredMen's Violence Against Women: Theory, Research, and Activism,Overcoming Masculine Depression:The Pain behind the Mask:(also translated into Hebrew and Korean;2ndedition, 2013), andSexual Assault in Context: Teaching College Men about Gender, a manual based on his consultation experiences. Drawing on his background as a professional stand-up comedian, Dr. Kilmartin wrote a solo theatre performance on men's issues entitledCrimes Against Nature. This work, an integration of his scholarly and performing interests, and performed by the author, has toured to over 150 campuses and other venues for a total of over 220 performances. He has also toured with a lecture/storytelling/multimedia hybrid entitledGendered Fictions: The Challenge of Cultural Change. Dr. Kilmartin delivered the Keynote address at the NCAA Violence Prevention Summit in 2011 and has alsoconsulted and delivered trainings with the U. S. Department of Education, the U.S. Army, Navy, and Air Force, the U. S. Institute of Peace, and the international group, Democratic Control of the Armed Forces. He served as a consultant for three years with the United States Naval Academy on a revision of sexual assault and harassment prevention curriculum. He was a scriptwriter for an Army training film on the same topic. He taught a full semester course on diversity and inclusion for Air Force officers and has delivered several workshops on the same topic. He is affiliated as a Senior Consultant with Newpoint Strategies, a contractor specializing in sexual assault/harassment prevention, as well as inclusion and diversity. Dr. Kilmartin was the Distinguished Visiting Professor in the Department of Behavioral Sciences and Leadership at the United States Air Force Academy for the academic year 2013-14. In 2007, he was the Fulbright Distinguished Chair in Gender Studies at the University of Klagenfurt, Austria, one of only 39 such honors awarded annually worldwide. He was elected to Fellow Status in the American Psychological Association in 2008 and is a Past President of Division 51 of that organization, the Society for the Psychological Study of Men and Masculinity, which awarded him its Researcher of the Year distinction in 2010. In 2015, the University of Mary Washington granted him its Professional Achievement Award. He has been a featured presenter at the National Psychotherapy with Men Conferences. Dr. Kilmartin is an internationally-recognized expert on gender, violence preventio BOOKS: Sandra Bem: The Lenses of Gender Robert Sapolsky: The Trouble with Testosterone Bernard Lefkowitz: Our Guys Links: chriskilmartin.com READ THE FULL TRANSCRIPTION of the EPISODE HERE (or download the pdf):

**IMPORTANT: This podcast episode was transcribed by a 3rd party service and so errors can occur throughout the following pages:

Mike: Welcome to the Respect Podcast. I am your host Mike [Donashrum 00:00:04] from Mikespeaks.com where we help organizations of all sizes, educational institutions and the US military create a culture of respect and respect is exactly what we discuss on this show. So let's get started.

Mike: I'm very excited to have someone on today. Someone that I've know for a while in the work that we do and that is Dr. Chris Kilmartin. Chris is an emeritus college professor, consultant, performer and trainer. He is the author of four books on men and masculinity and has been doing violence prevention work for more than 25 years. So Chris, thank you so much for joining us.

Chris: My pleasure. Now, what kinds of works have you done when it comes to gender education generally and violence prevention specifically?

Mike: I do a lot of ... my major scholarly area is on men and masculinity. So I help men to understand the social pressure to behave and experience themselves in line with what the culture says they should be for the body they're perceived as having. And help them understand this cultural pressure to do that. But your reactions to that cultural pressure are widely variable. So my mantra of late is, it's very difficult to resist a pressure that you cannot name. So what I'd like to help men do is name that pressure of masculinity and then we put them into a position to resist that pressure when conforming to it, hurt somebody or it conflicts with important life goal or value.

Mike: So that's just the basic gender education kind of stuff I've been doing. I've been teaching an academic course in men and masculinity for more than 20 years and been doing a lot of guest speaking on campuses and military and companies. Specifically with violence prevention I've done a variety of things. All are around prevention, that's my expertise. I'm not [inaudible 00:02:08] I know a little bit about a lot of things but I'm not an expert in victim services and things like that. I'm much more of an expert in trying to cause something not to happen in the first place.

Mike: And that is around leadership skills for setting the right tone in your organization to make sexual assault and harassment less likely and also bystander intervention. Getting people to step up when they hear dangerous attitudes or view problematic kinds of situations and help them learn what they can do and how they can help to prevent the problem.

Chris: Now Chris this is the respect podcast. So let's dive right into this element. Let's go back to men and their roles. Because a lot of that has to do with respect and we create this image that men are supposed to be. This stereotype that men are supposed to be and they're not able to be themselves. They're not able to explore full emotions. They're not able to explore their full creativity or whatever it may be. Therefore there's a lack of respecting the human being, the human content that it can really be because it's supposed to fit into this box.

Chris: And when we do that we disrespect the individual. Would you agree that's part of that work?

Mike: I would absolutely agree that's part of that work and a big part of it is to help and understand that a lot of what they're being asked to do is about a performance. It's not so much about who they actually are but how they're socialized to perform and that other men are performing as well. But we don't see them as performing so much as we think that's who this person actually is and my own research is that when men are in stereotypical all male groups and they're calling women by animal names or the names of their genitals or making derogatory jokes. Most men don't like that.

Mike: But the problem is they overestimate how much other men do like it. So it's like laughing at a joke that you don't think is funny. If I watched you laugh at that joke I would think you thought that was funny unless you let me in on your private reaction. Which, as we know, most men are not exactly famous for doing. And so we can ... once we can kind of widen out and I can absolutely agree with you if we can respect the person inside the man and not expect him to be this machine then lots of things become possible and lots of people are doing that kind of work.

Chris: And why men? Some people may be listening going, why men? They're the ones with the privilege. They have it so much easier. Why focus on men?

Mike: I don't think you necessarily have to focus on men. That's just where my work is focused but I think that if we as a group have obviously greater levels of privilege and power than women as a group. Although they're great individual variation among men and among women, then we can make a difference. But there lots, majority of men are really good people but they've been under involved in this work. So if we can mobilize, if we can amplify he healthy voices then we have a role to play.

Mike: And I think that anytime that the group that's in privilege has sometimes a different kind of role to play. We need men to step up and fight sexism just as we need heterosexual people to fight homophobia. We need rich people to work against economic inequality. We need cisgendered people to work against transphobia. There are people in the majority population have to be for us to all solve these problems we have to be good allies to people in the more marginalized populations.

Chris: Absolutely. And you brought up a good point earlier about men are not allowed to show these vulnerabilities. These honest moments. These expressions and there is a difference gender wise of what is acceptable at least in Westernized culture of the world. Women, it would not be uncommon for a group of women to joke around about breast size. That would not be a surprise.

Mike: Sure.

Chris: But you would almost never hear a group of men have any kind of conversation about penis size of themselves. [crosstalk 00:06:55] Unless it's a bragging of whose the largest. But there's not going to be this honest conversation but you may find that amongst those who identify as women. You may find that more likely to happen. Is that the kind of be willing to be honest and open that we're talking about or is that farther down the road? Are there some opening steps first before somebody can feel that kind of vulnerability on the human body, which men never talk about on a vulnerable level typically as a society, I don't mean individual men.

Chris: But as a society we don't talk about from a place of vulnerability.

Mike: Yeah and I think we can make spaces and there are people who do make spaces for men to explore the depth of their feelings about themselves. One of the things ... Now I've lost my train of thought, sorry. That I've seen a lot lately are these assumptions that men are simple or that men, especially when the Me Too movement started to take off, I saw these people on social media saying things like, "Men suck." Which is shorthand for, men lack morality.

Mike: And so if we embrace the sense of ourselves as being simple and lacking morality then we are incapable of that kind of work but most men are good people who are complex and so the other part about men suck or men are simple is it lets us off the hook because if we're simple or we're immoral and we're immoral then whose job is it to make the world a better place. We're leaving it up to women as if they don't have enough to do already.

Mike: So we need to redefine men as being complex. As being fair minded and caring and explode this myth of men are simple and immoral.

Chris: And we as men then have to uphold those value, right? That if we're going to say we're complex, we need to show complexity.

Mike: Yeah.

Chris: To display complexity. If we're going to say we're caring then we need to show caring. That becomes critical to this for the general society of belief. Those who have been taught men are bad. For them to believe anything else they have to see something else. When we're hearing men are bad or men are cruel, it's because somebody caused that pain to that person and often way more than one.

Chris: So there's a track record of men being bad in that person's life. And what we have to understand as men is don't take it personal when Person A over here says, "All men are bad." What you should step back and go, "Wow, the amount of men that must have created that impact and how sad that is that so many of my gender could cause that." And that's what we should recognize. Not, "How dare they blast me in with everyone."

Chris: Which is I think the most offensive reaction and we've seen it a lot in the Me Too movement. Now, I'm looped in with everybody else. Now, we're all rapist and that's not what people are saying.

Mike: Right, and I absolutely agree that defensive reaction is quite common and part of just the way that we think culturally about men and women. I mean we have this term, "the opposite sex." Men and women are not opposite. Or the battle of the sexes. Where 90% of the combatants are allegedly in love with and having children with the enemy. And so when we hold these kind of adversarial beliefs about men and women and somebody says that men are bad. Then we think we gotta defend ourselves and a lot of people believe that as women gain power that women will lose it and it's just not true. Power is not a zero sum game. We can enhance each other's power.

PART 1 OF 3 ENDS [00:11:04]

Mike: Power is not a zero sum game. We can enhance each other's power. So once we start to see men and women on the same team, and we understand how much pain many men have caused to women, and other men for that matter. Then we can start to understand, I mean I don't like male bashing anymore than anybody else, but I sure as hell understand where it comes from. And so, if you don't like it, really I think the most enlightened response is to do what you can to stop it.

Chris: Yes definitely, and in the Me Too movement, since we've brought it up. How do you think that is impacting this kind of work, this kind of enlightening, and just our society as a whole?

Mike: I think it has certainly I think increased the credibility of women and men, who have come forward and have said that, "People have mistreated me sexually." Either harassment or assault. It has I think, increased the empathy of some men, not all men, for women. 'Cause I think that part of what we see around sexual assault and harassment is rampant kind of victim blaming. That these were women who behaved badly, and they kind of got what they deserved. And that these are bad women who have been victimized, and the good women that I know, the women I know and love. Well once the Me Too movement started, if you were paying any attention at all, you'd be like, "Wow, all of these women I know! All these women, these friends of mine, these people I love. These family members have been victimized."

Mike: Then that breaks down that kind of sense of victim blaming, and I think increases empathy, because I think if you think in a victim blaming kind of way, there are victims like them, and victims like us. And victims like us are for instance, victims of random violence. I could have been in Parkland High School, I could have been in the Twin Towers, I could have been at Virginia Tech. We can't distance ourselves psychologically from those kinds of victims. But what we can with victims of inter personal violence to say, "Well I wouldn't have been stupid enough to be married to that person." Or, "Get that drunk." Or, "Have that poor judgment." And I think we have to move to a place where we understand that all victims are victims like us, and so I think the Me Too movement have been really good for building empathy in not all men, but some men. And an understanding of how rampant this problem is.

Chris: Well yeah, and you bring up an important part, which is we try to say, "well that's them, not me." Right? "I wouldn't have been there." And a reason a lot of people do that for our listeners to understand is, self defense.

Mike: Yes.

Chris: If I believe I wouldn't be there, I can feel safer in my day to day life, 'cause I don't have to fear this crime happening to me. If I think that could have been me, now I might live in fear. And I don't wanna live in fear, so it's easier to blame the other person and say, "They did something I would not do. Therefor I do not need to worry about this." This is shown in research in jury's when they look at sexual assault, and jurors don't convict the rapist in what appears to be a blatantly obvious case, because the juror's subconsciously want to believe, "Well, I've been in that same kind of situation, and so I don't wanna believe that could happen to me. So subconsciously I'll say, they must have done something different than I would have done. Therefor, I'm safe."

Mike: Right, and I think that's absolutely right. It's a security operation. So, I'm gonna find one thing that, that person did, and attribute it. Attribute the attack to that, and then if I avoid that. And victims do this to themselves, right? If I don't do that again. Right? I always tell people, "Don't bother blaming the victim, they're usually experts at it. They don't need any help from you." But, the other thing that you hear is, "If I had been there, here's what I would have done." And I saw this on social media around sexual harassment. Women saying, "I've never been harassed at work, because the men I work with know if they had done that, I would have slapped their face."

Mike: And well this is known as a post diction. It's the opposite of a pre diction. It's after the fact, saying what you would have done. We have tons of research over years in psychology. Post diction's are notoriously unreliable. You don't know what you would have done, because you cannot experience the kind of social pressure of the moment that would have happened. You can imagine what it would have been like, but you have the luxury of hindsight, and taking apart a situation, and forming a strategy that a person in the moment doesn't have. And so, the other layer of victim blaming is this post diction, this belief that I would have acted differently. When you actually have no way of knowing how you would have acted.

Chris: And I think that's brilliant, because we all do that, regardless of the topic. What I mean by that is if, you say to somebody, "If somebody said something highly inappropriate in front of you, would you say something?" 90% maybe 80% of people go, "Oh yeah, I'd say something." And then you have been with that person when somebody in the group has said something highly inappropriate, and they didn't say anything. So it's easier to preach our values on roles and our strong character, than it is to exercise it %100 of the time the way we'd like to. We're human, no one is gonna always speak up. Is going to always do the right thing in a tough situation. No one. So I think it's so brilliant that you bring up that post diction, because we live that on our daily basis, many of us. I mean all people do to some degree.

Mike: Yeah, absolutely. And we know that we can help people to be prepared for situation, like that, by practicing them as well. So, how many times have somebody said something that bothered you and you think, "Well this would have been a good thing to say." You think about that about two days later. And what I always tell people to do, is to put it in your pocket. Because you might be able to use it later on, but the other thing, this is a really simple technique that you can learn. When you hear somebody say something inappropriate and you can't muster an articulate response, just ask the person to repeat it, "I'm sorry, what did you say?"

Mike: And then the person's, often people will say these kinds of things without really thinking, just off the cuff. And when you ask them to repeat it, then they have to repeat it very consciously, and they may feel uncomfortable repeating it, in which case you've educated them to how their behavior was inappropriate. They may say it again, who knows. But at least you're making them make a really conscious decision to say or do what they said.

Chris: When I love that, the tone you just did that with, that you taught us to do that with, was brilliant. Because you didn't do a tone of, "Oh, I'm sorry. I couldn't hear you." It was, "Excuse me, what did you say?" That right away tells someone, "Uh-oh. They're surprised I made that statement." Right? And so, it does send a red flag out. Like, "Did you just say what I think you said? 'Cause I'm surprised." What you're suddenly doing there is, "I'm surprised you would say that." Which is actually ... And this is what I teach people too.

Chris: Say to people, "Wow, I don't think you meant what you just said, 'cause I know you. This doesn't reflect how I know you to be." And I know some people don't have those words sometimes, which is why you teach it that way. Which is when I don't have the words. I love it. Now speaking of fears and reacting to fears, a common one nowadays is this fear that, "I'll be falsely reported." That because of what's happening in the world, I'm walking around, and I'm afraid someone's gonna false report me. How do you help people understand the fear of false reports?

Mike: Yes, and thank you so much for using the word "report" instead of accusation, or allegation. I think that we get in trouble when we start to use these legalistic words, and often when I hear the word "allegation" I think, "Oh, a person's lying." Report is a much more neutral term. It's a much less judgemental term, so I think that we need to use that language. Well, the reality is that sometimes people do lie. I mean, but people overestimate how often that happens. And so, the myth of false reporting, a myth does not have to be completely untrue for it to be a myth. The importance of a myth is how it operates.

Mike: And how the myth of false reporting operates, is to make the disbelief of the person reporting, the default option, right? We're gonna make the assumption, and many law enforcement people do this, until they've been trained out of it. They make the assumption that the person is lying, because the story doesn't add up. Well if I'm gonna lie, I'd make a really good story. If I were gonna lie about a sexual - ... Say, "Well we got drunk, and we were kissing consensually." And make it sound like the kind of situation where it's hard to believe. Why wouldn't I say the person held a gun to my head, and why wouldn't I make it be the kind of-

Chris: Salaciousness almost-

Mike: Salacious, yeah. The kind of egregious rape story that people tend to believe. So, their estimates are between two and eight percent. I certainly believe they're closer to two percent. And then if you look at-

Chris: Well let's pause there. I think that, that's so important. 'Cause that's the numbers that I share too. That's two to eight percent of reporting-

Mike: Of reporting.

Chris: This is key here, because only a third to tenth that report it. So if you do two to eight percent of what is actually a third to a-

PART 2 OF 3 ENDS [00:22:04]

Chris: ... though few do 2-8% of what is actually a third to a tenth. You're actually talking about .3 of a percent to about 3% at the high end of cases. And what I think is important for people to realize there is understanding that we're talking about 97% of the time. That means that survivors speaking total truth 97% of the time, so why are you focusing on the 3? Why? 'Cause TV and the media, when they get that 3% runs with it. And everybody goes, "Proof I don't need to worry about the topic." Isn't that really what's caused this myth?

Mike: Yeah, I think so. And yeah, I mean my estimation, and it's just an estimation, is that for every false report of a sexual, there are about 475 unreported assaults, so you tell me which is the bigger problem. And if you're focused on these rare false reports ... And we have to acknowledge it would be a horrible thing for somebody to say that you did something, a felony, that-

Chris: Yeah and a false report is horrible for everyone. It's horrible for survivors, yeah.

Mike: Yeah, but the fact that you're focusing on that tells me who you are identifying with. You're identifying with the person being reported rather than the victim. We have a huge problem with unreported rapes, because we don't ... we're doing better with this, but we're not very good at supporting victims who come forward and making them feel safe to report. We're doing better. And so-

Chris: Right. What is the key steps we can do to help people recognize sexism and to speak out? So what are some steps you give groups you work with about, "Hey. Here's how to notice. Here's how to catch. Here's the action step to take,"?

Mike: Right. Well, one of the things is to help them understand that if you're bothered by sexism, you're not alone, and this is especially true with men. Men are often comparing their inner experience with other men's performances. As I said, when somebody says something sexist, most men are bothered by that, but they think they're alone in that. I show them age old social-psychological research on conforming and once you perceive an ally and you talk with other men, "Does this bother you? It bothers me," then you start to feel supported coming forward. So there's the noticing the event, this is the classic social-psychological intervention steps: Notice the event, define it as a problem, take responsibility for doing something about the problem, decide what you're going to do and do it. If you're an EMT and you see somebody clutch their heart and fall to the ground, you go through those five steps in about a half a second because you've been trained to do it and you've thought about it. So we help people understand sexism and how sexism harms everybody, not just women. Then we mobilize the good guys and we amplify their voices, so that's the attitudinal part of course and then there is the skill part.

Mike: Which it's interesting too, part of the research that we did is we brought men into our lab and we showed them statements, we say, "You're in a situation where another man says this sexist thing and you're offended," and we didn't say, "If you're offended," we say, "And you're offended. So what we want you to do is construct a challenge to that," and so we give them practice at it and then we had them write a letter to a man. So part of what we know, we look to our attitudes to shape our behavior, but what is less obvious is that we look to our behavior to shape our attitudes. So if we can get people to behave in the direction of the attitude, that's going to increase the attitude. So for instance, men who were asked to role play being an advocate for a woman bringing a sexual harassment complaint in a company, become more sympathetic to the problem of sexual harassment. So we're working both sides of the street, we're inside out, attitude to behavior, but also outside in, behavior to attitude.

Chris: I love this idea for everyone to think ... If I were to sit down, "What are situations that I've been in that made me uncomfortable," and then to write out what are possible responses I could've, precise language that I could've used in that moment, so like you said earlier, I've got it in my pocket. I think that's so usable, it's so implementable, we can all do that. And Chris, you have three books you really recommend, I always ask everyone on the show to give me books that they recommend, you had three you shared with me. And that was: 'Our Guys' By: Bernard Lefkowitz, and then 'The Trouble with Testosterone' By: Robert Sapolsky, and then Sandra Bem's, 'The Lenses of Gender'. Why those three?

Mike: Well, I think that we need to have gendered and social context for this problem. So Sandra Bem's 'Lenses of Gender' is just ... She doesn't talk about violence at all, that I can remember, in that book, but it's a formidable intellectual piece of work that changed the way I think about gender and how we grow up with it and how we can learn to be conscious of it. It's a great book for that regard. Sapolsky's book, actually, the title of the book, it's a collection of essays. Sapolsky is world's foremost endocrinologist, he's an amazing biologist, and so often people biologize male aggression and gender and testosterone is usually the culprit-

Mike: ... an issue with that because I've got plenty of testosterone and so do you and so do most every man we know and vast majority of us are not violent, so it's not a straightforward kinda pathway. Sapolsky is brilliant, and by the way, this is a collection of essays on various biological topics, so we're talking about 'The Trouble with Testosterone' is only like a four page thing, that's one of the essays. But he liked it well-enough that he decided to name the book after it. And he explains the biology of it and what Sapolsky is really good at is to take complex science and explain it to people who don't necessarily have a really good science background without dumbing it down, so that's a brilliant essay.

Mike: 'Our Guys' is about the gang rape of a developmentally disabled girl in a privileged community in New Jersey and I think the power of that book is that Lefkowitz talks about these boys who did this horrible thing, but also looks at how a community enabled them, and I think that's brilliant.

Mike: And also, by the way, speaking of Sapolsky, if you're interested in the biology things, I highly recommend Frans de Waal's book, he's our world's foremost primatologist. And one of the things you hear in the culture often is this alpha male language, well, de Waal explains that the stereotype of the alpha male is a bully, there's somebody who gets what he wants through intimidation, violence, threat of violence and there are primates who do that. But the most successful primates are actually what he calls 'populists', that they aid in food sharing in the group, they break up fights, they're loved, they're leaders. And so we think of that this is the only way for men to gain power, well, the bullies in primate troupes, they don't last very long because other animals form coalitions and overthrow them. And so he helps us understand through our closest animal relatives, what is true about human nature and what is not.

Chris: Well, I think the irony of talking about the animal world, and the dogs are speaking out there at the same time at your house.

Mike: They're [crosstalk 00:30:58].

Chris: Yeah, so that's ironic. But it sounds like brilliant, so we'll have the links to all those for listeners right now, you'll find those in the show notes, either iTunes or on our website. You'll also be able to find Chris at chriskilmartin.com. Kilmartin is K-I-L-M-A-R-T-I-N, just like it sounds, and Chris is C-H-R-I-S. Chriskilmartin.com, all will be on our website, at respectpodcast.com.

Chris: And for our listeners right now, remember you can go on Facebook and we have a discussion group, you can join other people, share with other people, talk about everything Chris has said. Because Chris, this has been brilliant. Now, that Facebook group is called 'The Respect Podcast Discussion Group', super easy, and that's how you find it on Facebook.

Chris: Chris, thank you so much for joining us today.

Mike: It was my pleasure, Mike, anytime.

Chris: Thank you for joining us for this episode of The Respect Podcast, which was sponsored by The DATE SAFE Project at datesafeproject.org. And remember, you can always find me at mikespeaks.com.

PART 3 OF 3 ENDS [00:32:00]

Does RESPECT exist in today's marking and advertising world? Listen as world-leading branding expert and author, Bruce Turkel, discusses with host Mike Domitrz how respect plays a role in the media and advertising world today.

* You are invited to join our community and conversations about each episode on FaceBook at https://www.facebook.com/MutuallyAmazingPodcast and join us on Twitter @CenterRespect or visit our website at http://www.MutuallyAmazingPodcast.com**

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BIO: Bruce Turkel. Useful, Valuable, Enjoyable. Whether creating brands, books, or explaining brand strategy on national TV, Bruce's energetic creativity makes brands more valuable. He's created campaigns for AMEX, Miami, Discovery, Hasbro, Bacardi, and more. Simply put, Bruce is a brand builder, keynote speaker, TV personality, and author. Bruce appears regularly on MSNBC, CNN, and CCTV. He's been inFast Company, The New York Times,andForbesand has authored five books on branding and creativity. Bruce has helped create some of the world's most compelling brands, including Hasbro, Nike, American Express, Charles Schwab, Citicorp, Discovery Networks, Bacardi, Sol Melia Hotels, Partnership for a Drug-Free America, HBO Latin America, Canyon Ranch, Miami, and many more. He is a keynote speaker, author, musician, artist, and runner who tours extensively. Perhaps you've seen Bruce on TV.He is a frequent guest expert on the national news and appears regularly on FOX Business, CNN, CBS, MSNBC, CCTV (Chinese Television) and NPR. Perhaps you've read about Bruce.He has been featured inThe New York Times, Fast Company, Communication Arts, AdWeek, andSpeakermagazines. Perhaps you've heard Bruce speak.He has spoken at MIT, Harvard, TEDx, and hundreds of corporate and industry conferences around the world. In 2017 the National Speakers Association inducted Bruce into their Speaker Hall of Fame. Perhaps you've read one of Bruce's five books.His most recent book,All About Themwas chosen as one ofForbes Magazine'sbest business books of 2016. Perhaps you've heard Bruce playing his harmonica.Bruce fronts the popular Miami R&B band Blackstar. Perhaps you've seen Bruce's artwork.Bruce is an incessant doodler and is famous for his caricatures of the local and national business leaders he's worked with. Perhaps you passed Bruce in your last marathon.He is a dedicated — but slow — runner. Meet Bruce Turkel.He is about to share some of his simple yet proven powerful brand building techniques with you. LINK: http://www.BruceTurkel.com Books: All About Them, Bruce Turkel Orbiting The Giant Hairball, Gordon MacKenzie Designing Your Life, Burnett & Evans READ THE FULL TRANSCRIPTION of the EPISODE HERE (or download the pdf):

**IMPORTANT: This podcast episode was transcribed by a 3rd party service and so errors can occur throughout the following pages:

Mike: Welcome to the Respect podcast. I'm your host, Mike Domitrz from MikeSpeaks.com, where we help organizations of all sizes, educational institutions, and the US military create a culture of respect. And respect is exactly what we discuss on this show, so let's get started.

Mike: This week. We've got a very special guest also a friend of mine's, I love having friends on the show. That is Bruce Turkel. He's a brand builder, keynote speaker, TV commentator and author. If you watch any business news on cable, you've probably seen him, whether it was MSNBC, or CNNI, or Fox News in the past, you've seen this guy. I've gotten to know him and I realized he sees things others of us just don't see, and that's one of the cool things about getting to talk with Bruce. So Bruce, thank you for joining us.

Bruce: Thanks for inviting me, Mike. You're right. It's fun to do this with friends.

Mike: Absolutely. And you and I are going to get into a decision you've made recently and publicly, via blog. It's really powerful. Before we get into that, I want to talk about how you view respect in its role in advertising and marketing. For everybody watching and/or listening. Bruce is a guru in the marketing branding world. That's what he's known for. He's worked with some of the largest brands in the world. How do you feel that respect plays a role?

Bruce: You know, there's two ways to look at marketing, branding. I think there's two ways to look at a lot of things. There's the positive way and there's the negative way. And you hear people talk about the negative way that advertisers and marketers try to convince people to buy things they don't want, don't need, and can't afford. And that's certainly the negative way of doing it. Or you can say the positive way, which is that advertising, marketing. Branding is the engine of the economy. It's what keeps people interested. It's what keeps people involved. It's what keeps people engaged.

Bruce: If you're running a business, it's what allows you to actually provide the products and services that you provide, because people are interested in them. If in fact, you are consumer, it allows you to find out what's out there, what's available. It also subsidizes a lot of media that we take advantage of, whether it's radio or television, or online, or any of the things that we don't pay for.

Bruce: Part of the reason we don't pay for that content is because of advertising and marketing/ So I, of course, prefer to look at the positive side of. That being said, then respect becomes very important, because if you're going to do this from a positive point of view, then in fact you have to be careful not to be selling people things they don't want, don't need, and can't afford. But instead, to be demonstrating to people why your client's products and services, or why your products and services actually will make your customer's life better.

Bruce: That's what the respect is about. Now, you're providing something of value. I tell people that when I speak, when I write, when I commentate on television or when I create marketing campaigns, I want the stuff I do to be useful. I want it to be valuable. And I want it to be enjoyable.

Mike: What-

Bruce: In order to accomplish those things. It has to be respectful as well.

Mike: What percentage of advertisers that you see out there, companies selling, do you feel fall into that negative stereotype that brand has such harmful viewpoint of advertising marketing that people get. You know, the old stereotype which could be unfair, that used car salesman stereotype. How many people do you feel that are out there? What percentage that is manipulative? That it's not based on respect, that it's based on emotional and psychological manipulation, just to sell?

Bruce: Well, as soon as you use the word percentage, then you're asking for metrics that I don't actually have. I don't know what percentage. I do know that often the pieces we remember, the pieces that put a bad taste in our mouth tend to be those. I mean you used as an example, the used car salesman. Now you're thinking of the sleazy guy, the polyester jacket, the sleeves rolled up. And the guy who's just trying to get you into a car and get your money. But again, think about the other side, you have to get your kids to school. You've got to get to work. You want something safe. He wants them to reliable. A used car salesman who knows what they're doing, and is intent on providing service is not like that at all, but what do we remember?

Bruce: We remember the negative stereotype. And there's plenty of it. Believe me, I am not making excuses for the industry or for the negative practitioners. I'm simply saying that what a lot of us do in my opinion, actually makes the world a better place.

Mike: Oh, I agree. And that's why I said that whether it be an unfair reputation of that used car salesman, because we buy used. So I'm not somebody that runs from a used car salesman at all. If you find the right person, they're wonderful and they do take care of you very quickly. But it is, you're right, it's that negative impression people have about-

Bruce: That's right.

Mike: ... marketing. Because the media environment is so confrontational right now. Do you think that respect is passe?

Bruce: Passe? No, not at all. I think respect is less and less prevalent. I think what's happened is there's an old political saying, "There's no margin in the middle." And I think what you find is a lot of the practitioners will avoid names for the sake of whoever's listening and might have an opinion different than mine. But a lot of the practitioners are using the bassist most, brutal forms of communication because they're always easier, cheaper to use, and they always hit hard. I mean, getting hit with a bat is a pretty low level communication received, right? If I want to convince you of something, I could try to convince you. I can quote the masters, I can give you good information. I can hit you with a bat and say, if you don't believe me, I'm going to hit you again.

Bruce: It works. It just doesn't work well and it's a brutal backward facing way of getting your point across. And I think that's what we're seeing now. We're seeing that so many of these backward thinking strategies are working that people are utilizing them. So no, I don't think respect is passe at all. I think that respect right now is taking a backseat in many instances to things that maybe work a little quicker and a little stronger but don't ultimately work better.

Mike: So there's a documentary out now, at the time we're recording this on Mr. Rogers, called "Won't You Be My Neighbor?" And this discussion is actually prevalent to that, because he talks about when TV came forward and really hit its mainstream, how it was the lowest forms of comedy the TV was turning to. The pie in the face, the violence, the cheap violence. And he was so offended that why would such a wonderful tool, why would be a wonderful medium be used at the lowest common denominator spread these messages?

Mike: And that sort of what you're saying right now is that there's so much of that lowest level being used, that it's overwhelming. So the question became in the documentary is, can there be a place? How do you get back to that place where respect can be at the forefront where you can think at a higher intellectual level in the advertising? What do you think it would take for market advertising to have that paradigm shift, to go to a place that's really built on respect, dignity for the consumer, for people watching?

Bruce: I think what happens is over time, technologies and use of new technologies adapt and they adapt progressively and get better and better. So when movie cameras were first created, the silent movies, all they did was record plays because plays. Because plays where the way, theater was the way you presented a story. And it never dawned on anybody that you could do something different. So what do they do? They set up the camera, they set up the tripod, and they filmed the play. Then someone said, wait a second, we don't have to keep this camera in one position. We can actually take it outdoors.

Bruce: We don't have to make believe we're on a wagon going into the wild west, we can actually go out and film it and they went out and changed the way they did that. When television took over from movies, took over from radio rather, what did they do? They took the same radio characters, the Amos, and Andy's, and the Lucy Balls, and all of those who were on radio and they simply put them on television, because it never dawned on anybody that you could create a new paradigm, a new visual language with this new technology that you had.

Bruce: And what we're seeing now because of where the Internet has gone, is that people are saying, "Okay, I have this new technology. I can go on a Facebook. I can go on a Linkedin and I can change people's opinions, and I ... " Same thing that marketing and advertising has always tried to do. And what did they do? They use the old tools and techniques. But over time, what happens is those things fall by the wayside as people start to see different ways of utilizing the tools.

Bruce: Now remember, there's an old saying in marketing, "Does marketing take its cues from popular culture, or does popular culture take its cues from marketing?" Meaning, if you see somebody wearing an outfit on television that you like, do you go out and buy it? You took your cue from popular culture or are the people who were putting out popular culture walking on the streets and saying, "Oh, I like what that guy's got on, and then moving it into popular culture."

Bruce: And my answer is, it doesn't really matter. As I see it, it's a back and forth. It's a constant give and take. So if what's going on in popular culture is of a lesser respectful nature, less of a regard for people's individual rights, people's individual space, however you choose to define it. Then you're going to see that reflected in popular culture and then of course the popular culture. And, I'm sorry, the actual culture builds on popular culture and vice versa. As you see respect returning to the mainstream, you will also see it happen more and more in marketing materials. It's a constantly moving, constantly self-perpetuating, self-feeding process.

Mike: And what do you think it's going to take for respect to come to the forefront in either one, so that that cycle you mentioned, you know, if it comes to the forefront in society, then marketing will follow? Or if marketing leads, what do you think it's going to take for that to happen?

Bruce: Leadership. People standing up and saying, this is the way things go. I mean, if you think about respect, if you think about respectful behavior throughout history, you can find certain benchmarks in history based on people, based on leadership. And whether its religious leadership, or political leadership, or business leadership, or technology leadership, or medical leadership, irrelevant. You can find that different fence posts, signposts rather, where respect, concern for the other became the way you get things done.

Bruce: Conversely, you can also find times in history where the opposite was true and you can see where those trains were driven to completely mixed my metaphors. And if you think about the statues in a park, you never see a statue with a group of people pointing in a direction. In fact, the only statue I can think of with a group of people, is the flag raising in Iwo Jima where all the GIs, the marines rather, are putting the flag up.

Bruce: Every other statute is one person, tends to be male, but that's because of the way history was written. Right? But one person on a horse with the sword pointing, because it's these leaders that show us the right way.

PART 1 OF 3 ENDS [00:11:04]

Bruce: It's these leaders that show us the right way to proceed, the right way to move forward, and the right way to behave. Unfortunately, it's also leaders who drag us backwards and show us that the other works as well.

Mike: Yeah, my wife was driving by a billboard this weekend and stopped and took a picture because the billboard, and I'm paraphrasing, was a simple statement, but powerful. Something along the lines of, who I love should not be able to get me fired. That was the whole billboard, and you thought, "Wow, that's an important discussion," and obviously, in the line of work I do, we believe strongly in that, respect and dignity for all, but you don't see a lot of billboards like that, and if you do, it tends to be, as far as from a moral or civil comment, it tends to be of a religious organization.

Bruce: Well remember that for a billboard to be there, someone had to pay for it.

Mike: Right.

Bruce: In order for it to be paid for, it has to be an institutional viewpoint. You're not going to pay for it. A billboard costs between 3, 10, 20, $30,000.00 a month. You have those good feelings, that who you love should not get you fired, but are you willing to reach into your bank account and buy that sign? You're probably not, so most opinions that you see in popular marketing tend to be institutional, businesses, governments, associations, religious institutions and so on and so forth, because they're able to put their money where their mouth is. They're able to go out to their constituents and say, "We're going to promote this viewpoint."

Bruce: What's changed in today's society is social media. Social media has completely democratized communication, and completely democratized information, and completely democratized the individual's ability to go out and make a message, so one person can go out and say something on social media, that we never could do before. This broadcast that you and I are doing is a perfect example. Neither one of us is investing the kind of money that billboards would cost to get our opinions out there, and so what you are going to see is more and more popular speech become more and more widely disseminated. Of course when that happens, you're talking about non-sophisticated marketers, who don't understand how to use marketing tools yet, and they're out there screaming into the chasm, and hoping they hear something back, other than their echo, and what gets somebody to scream back the quickest? Being provocative, saying something that will clearly upset somebody else, that's how you get the back and forth, if you don't know how to utilize creativity, if you don't know how to utilize psychological tools and techniques to get people to pay attention. As this social media gets us more and more democratized, what you're going to see is more and more low level marketing until the populace learns how to use the tools.

Mike: How do you, or who do you feel is a good example of somebody that is leading from a moral conviction and getting messaging out there? I can think of one. For the past decade it was the Dove campaign, and the Dove campaign had the women in underwear, and saying all shapes and sizes, that everybody is of value, that we should be able to love your body. Actually I know, Stacey, one of the original women in that campaign, is a friend, a fellow speaker, an NSA member. They were leading the way at that time. Who do you see leading the way right now? Who are some top brands that you've seen? Saying, "Hey Mike, they're taking on social issues," and in doing so maybe taking risk, but it's in alignment with what they believe institutionally.

Bruce: Well, it's not only through marketing. It's also through corporate behavior, so for example we saw what happened when Starbucks had that issue, I believe it was in Philadelphia, where two African American patrons were waiting for a friend, didn't purchase anything. The manager called the cops, and that became a big issue, and we find that offensive on a very basic level, which is that didn't happen to the White patrons, it happened to the Black patrons, therefore we're all offended. It was offensive on even a greater level to Starbucks' authentic truth, which is they provide what they call the third space, the place you and I can go and have a meeting, and use a bathroom, and have a cup of coffee and chat, and air-conditioning and lights, the Wifi and all of that.

Bruce: In response, Starbucks could have very easily said, Howard Schultz could have said, "It's one store. It happened once. It was in Philadelphia. We have," I don't know how many stores they have, "We have 28,000 stores around the world, come on, give us a break," but he didn't do that. Instead, what he said was, "This is unacceptable." He didn't blame the manager. He said, "We have not done our jobs making sure that everybody in our universe understands the way we treat our patrons, and therefore we are going to commit ourselves to providing a respectful environment." They closed all their stores for half a day. They did training to all of their employees. They are committed to continuing training. They've already hired 10,000 veterans. They're committed to hiring another 10,000. They're committed to hiring another 10,000 inner-city, Black, Hispanic, and other minority workers. They are committing to keeping their bathrooms open for people who don't have access to bathrooms. They are doing it on every level. It's not simply, "Look at our advertising," although the advertising reflects exactly what they're talking about, and they're not making jokes about Black coffee, you know, which they could, right, because that's the quick way to get that message out.

Bruce: Instead, they're saying, "This is who we are. This is what matters to us, and this is what we're going to do about it." Why? One guy, it was Howard Schultz, who came back from being, he had moved from CEO to Founder, to Chairman of the Board, to whatever, but he came back and said, "No, no, no. It's not going to work this way. Here's how we're going to do it." One guy on a horse with a sword.

Mike: Your book's all about this. Your latest book title is, All About Them, which is what we're talking about right now. They made it about their alignment of their customer, and their client, and their demographic, not about just getting out there and defending themselves, that would be all about me, right? That's not even who I am, that's one fluke like you're describing.

Mike: When we talk about All About Them, why do you think we fall into the trap of whether you're a speaker, an expert, a big, large institution, organization of making it about ourselves, right? Look at me, look at my product. Why do we fall into that, and how can we be more aware and present to making it about them? What are steps that we can take to make sure we're making it about them every day?

Bruce: Well there's three reasons why we do it. The first one is just personal insecurity. "Look at me. Look what I've done, because I need to build myself up. I need to feel good about myself." That's for a different show, and people with different expertise, but the other two reasons that we do it, reason number one is because in the old days, pre Internet, if you didn't blow your own horn, if you didn't tell people who you were and what you did, who was going to tell them? There was no way for anyone to find out about you.

Bruce: If I was interested in having Mike Domitrz to come and speak at my event, how could I find out about you, other than calling you and saying, "Hey Mike, would you send me a video tape? Would you send me a brochure?" You needed to go, "Look at me. Look at me. Look at me," but today, before I call you on the phone, I know everything I want to know about you. The key is that I want to know because some people go to your website, go to YouTube, look things up. Go to Google, what we call the belt and suspender people, right, they wear both because they want every detail. Other people don't care that much. They don't bother, but you being out there yelling, "Look at me. Look at me. Look at me. Look at me," is a fool's errand because that information is available. We used to say, "Imagine if we each had a magical device that knew everything." Siri, Cortana, Google, Alexa, Echo know everything, so being out there and yelling, "Look at me," there really is no benefit to it. That's reason number two.

Bruce: Reason number three should be the simplest one of all, no one taught you this. Nobody said, "When you're marketing, when you're branding, when you're building your business, stop talking about yourself." You know about it when you go on a date. You could be that guy on the date who says, "Yeah, I did this, then I did this, then I did this, then I did this," but you understand that if you do that, the conversation's not going to go very far, but when we talk about our businesses, nobody said to us, "Look, here's the way you do it."

Bruce: Look at the best advertisers. Look at how they promote themselves. What you will see is, they never talk about themselves. Apple does not tell you why their computers are better. They don't talk to you about speeds and seeds. They don't talk to you about technological advances. What are they saying right now? Behind the Mac, and they show a picture of a person with a laptop. Oh, I don't want to print this so I'll open it, and they show the person behind the computer. On the billboard I saw yesterday, they guy's like this. Now you don't know what he's looking at. You don't know what this means. It could mean, "Oh my God, I just declared bankruptcy." It could be, "Oh my God, look at my new granddaughter." You have no idea, but you have been in that position before, and so they're not talking about their equipment. They're talking about you and I. They're talking about the experience of being behind the Mac.

Bruce: When they had their campaign thing different, they didn't say, "Think different because we have an M17 megahertz processor." They talked about the people who have thought different in history. Joan of Arc, Leonardo Di Vinci, Thomas Edison, Albert Einstein, and so on and so forth, Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and why you can be like them. Why Apple empowers you to do this. We see these messages all around us. We see the best companies, the best marketers, do it. We just have never been told, "That's how you do it." Now you've been told.

Mike: Right.

Bruce: That's why I wrote the book, by the way.

Mike: Well I love that, and so pick up the book and we can all learn that. That becomes really important to talk about. How does someone help people find, like you said, you can do anything to find anything you want about people, so are you referring to the fact that you need to be serving up content, you need to be serving up valuable information? If you're going to put yourself out there, put it out there in a way that you're serving, that you're providing helpful information so that when they are searching, and they run into you, they see somebody who aligns with what they're looking for, is that what you're referencing there, versus look at me?

Bruce: Of course.

Mike: No, no, let me just ... Hey I've got some info., helpful information here.

Bruce: That's right and information is only one way to look at it. It can also be entertainment. It can also be explanation. It can also be editing. I mean, for example, some of the most popular sites on the net are travel sites because when I travel somewhere, I don't know where to go, so I look for people I trust. The reason I think that Anthony Bourdain was so successful was we could relate to him. We felt his pain. We felt his normal-ness. He was one of us. [inaudible 00:21:41] what we should do. He became our editors. We went to Paris, or we went to Peking, we could see what did Anthony Bourdain suggest we do, so editing is a great thing you can provide for people. "Hey, here's what I know a lot about. Let me help you have a better experience." Travel, food, music, electronics ...

PART 2 OF 3 ENDS [00:22:04]

Mike: Food, music, electronics, software. Whatever it is you know about, providing that level of, let me help you. I use an algorithm in the book, CC 2 CC. The first CC stands for company centric, the number two stands for to, and the second CC stands for consumer centric. How do you take what you know, company centric, and how do you transfer it to your consumer? And more importantly to your potential consumer. And that's what we're talking about. Put the content out there, that there's things I want to read, because either I'm interested in the information or I find it amusing. Or I find it thought provoking, or I find it provocative. Or I find it helpful. Again, I don't know what your interests are, and you don't know what my interests are.

Mike: But if your an expert in something, you know what it is you can provide. And you have to demonstrate to people that by interacting with you, with your materials, their lives will be better.

Bruce: And so, is the mistake that some people are making today, in thinking when they put out an video, or they put an article, they put something out in the world, is they're thinking, what do I need to say to get attention? Versus, what is the best way I can entertain, serve those who would enjoy this the most.

Bruce: Right instead of just saying, look at me, versus how can I be of service or of entertainment? Is that what you're referring to there? That idea that, "Hey, I'm going to do this video, because then I'll be the one everyone's talking about". Versus, "I'm going to do this video because nobody's saying this right now, and we need to have this conversation".

Mike: So I love the word serve. Because if you say serve, that includes inform, entertain, excite, edit, whatever because it all fits under the umbrella. Yeah, you don't want to be the little kid at the pool, on the diving board going, "Look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me". And at that point there's only two things he could do to make it worth my while. He could either do a perfectly executed double back flip. Or he can jump up in the air, and belly flop and make me laugh. There's nothing else that kid's going to do that's going to make up for him interrupting me.

Mike: Think about old school marketing, the look at me, as the foot that someone sticks out in the isle of the airplane or the movies that you trip over. It interrupts your day to day. It makes you pay attention, but it's not necessarily a good thing. And the provocative statements tend to do that. Whereas the person who says, "Oh, you're going to Des Moines, well let me tell you some great places to eat". I've never been to Des Moines before, I'm interested, I want to hear that. That will make my life better. "And when you go to this restaurant, you know what, the maître d's name is Christina, tell her I sent you and she'll take really good care of you". Wow, now I get to travel like a local, that's awesome. Very different than the person tripping you and saying, "Hey here's some coupons, when you go there you can save money on stuff".

Bruce: Yeah.

Mike: One's respecting your time. One's respecting your intelligence. And today's show's obviously all of our shows are all about respect. For you Bruce, who instilled respect in you the most? Through your growing up? Through your development? Through the business years?

Bruce: There were I think probably three or four people who did it. The first two were my parents. My parents were real sticklers for this. My dad's belief was, you do the right thing, because it's the right thing to do. I remember when my friend Alan got $5 for a B and $10 for an A. And I came home, and said, "Hey, Alan just got" ... Alan wasn't that smart I don't think he got that much money, but. "Alan just got 25 bucks for his report card Dad, and looking at you owe me 70 bucks". My father looked at me like I had three heads, and he said, "What are you talking about?"I said, "You know, Alan gets $5 for a B and $10 for an A". And he said, "You're supposed to get A's, that's your job, my job is to clothe you, feed you, house you, teach you about the world. Your job is to be the best you can be. Now I'm not saying that you might not get a D occasionally, or a C and that's so terrible, but your job is to do well". There was no reason why. There was no explanation right. It was the right thing to do. And I saw my dad do that in business. And I saw my dad do that in all his social activism.

Bruce: My parents did the first anti-segregation sit in's in the South in Miami in 1959. My parents did amazing things. My mother was just as upright, but also added an intellectual component. Where she wouldn't just say it's the right thing to do. She would give me five books that I had to go read. That explained throughout history, why these things mattered.

Bruce: And then, when I was in the orchestra. My orchestra leader, and crazy enough, my band leader, because I was a musician in school. Both of the two of them, really instilled this idea, that music is this ideal that you strive for. And the reason you strive for it is because you have to respect everyone who's come before. The composers, the musicians, the audiences. And if you get up, and you don't do a good job, you're not only disrespecting yourself. But you're disrespecting this entire tradition of music. And you're disrespecting the people who are listening to you. They didn't say you had to be perfect. Hey we were Junior High School musicians, we weren't that good. But the point was, you're doing the best you can do, because you respect yourself. And you respect the people that you are producing this music for. And you respect everyone who's come before you and who's laid the path. So we stand on the shoulders of giants. And that's how we become giants ourselves. And I think that is a clear indication or why respect matters.

Mike: I love that. And you spoke of your mom giving you books to read. And I know you're a big reader, obviously your book is one that we'll have a link to for everybody, All About Them. You also told me about two other books that you're a big fan of. And that is, Orbiting the Giant, I believe it is Hairball by Gordon Mackenzie.

Bruce: Orbiting the Giant Hairball, yup.

Mike: Yep. And Designing Your Life by Burnett and Evans. Can you explain what about these two books you love?

Bruce: Well let me, you brought up three points. So first of all, my mother and books. I had brunch with my mother yesterday, I left with two books. I need to read The Undoing Project and The Sense of an Ending, so my mother still does that to this day.

Mike: That's awesome.

Bruce: Designing Your Life is sitting right on my desk. It's not because I thought you [inaudible 00:28:10]. I have notes on every single page. Designing Your Life is a great book. It simply talks about, what is it you want out of life? It was a class at Stanford that has no become the most popular class at the university. And every student is required to take it. And they make you do something that I thought was fascinating. They make you write just a 30 minute, one pager, it's easy to do. A business plan. Here's where I think my business is going. Here's what I think I want to accomplish, on and on and on. A couple of pages later, they ask you to write a life plan. Here's what I want to accomplish in my life. Here's who I want to be. And then they say, okay now put the two of them together. And you find a sense of congruity between the two. Does the business plan help you achieve what you want to do in life? Does the life plan help you decide what you want to do in business. Amazingly enough, I have never thought of that before. And my guess is, the people listening are going, "I never thought of that either". So that's why I like that book.

Bruce: Orbiting the Giant Hairball, which is back there on my bookshelf, is a book written by the guy who was the creative director for Hallmark Cards. And he's the one who took Hallmark Cards from just having the plain, sappy greeting cards, to all those little wacky cards. And cards that talk to different groups, and different people and different interested. And the entire book is about moving forward towards being the ultimate manifestation of who you are. And why you matter. While bureaucracy, entropy, all the other forces try to drag you back. Accept even though those are big words, by the title of the book, Orbiting the Giant Hairball, you can tell that he doesn't take it seriously. And so he's talking all the time about Why you matter. Why Earth matters. Why music matters. Why you need to express who you are. And it's just really an inspirational and a wonderful, wonderful book.

Mike: I love it. Thank you so much for sharing your brilliance with us, Bruce. I know you and I just recently got to spend a little time together. And being around you, your energy, your spirit, your brilliance is always awesome. So thank you.

Bruce: Wow. Thank you.

Mike: Absolutely. And for everyone listening, remember you can join us on Facebook at our discussion group. So it's The Respect Podcast Discussion Group and really dive into your favorite parts that were shared today by Bruce. Insights maybe to check those books out. But let us know what you loved. That's on the Facebook discussion group for The Respect Podcast.

Mike: Thank you for joining us for this episode of The Respect Podcast. Which was sponsored by The Date Safe Project at datesafeproject.org. And remember you can always find me at mikespeaks.com.

PART 3 OF 3 ENDS [00:30:55]

Kirsty Spraggon shares how sharing her TRUTH revolutionized her life and now is impacting soo many more lives. Kirsty tells Mike the keys for HOW TO tell your truth and where to start (along with who to potentially start with).

* You are invited to join our community and conversations about each episode on FaceBook at https://www.facebook.com/MutuallyAmazingPodcast and join us on Twitter @CenterRespect or visit our website at http://www.MutuallyAmazingPodcast.com**

BIO: Kirsty is one of the most sought after inspirational speakers, most often booked to open or close a conference. She is known for her ability to shift the tone of an event, to help the audience connect with themselves— and others in a deeper, more meaningful way and to help clients foster a culture of vulnerability throughout their event and beyond. She does this by modeling her own beautiful, heart-opening vulnerability. Her ability to share moving, thought provoking and emotional topics with compassion, strength, and her signature Australian humor, helps the audience become comfortable with going, just a little deeper. She is a truth teller, connector and a powerful storyteller with the rare ability to both inspire audiences and leave them with actionable strategies that have life changing results. Kirsty's courageous story has touched diverse audiences all over the world, including employees from Fortune 500 Companies & global brands. She is trusted by her clients to design and deliver interactive keynotes that inspire change, challenge thinking and accelerate personal and professional growth. Kirsty's own journey began as a truth seeker herself, looking for her freedom... she found it when, after almost 2 decades of living with a secret, she bravely shared her TRUTH with the world in a first of it's kind TEDx talk titled 'You're Only as Sick as Your Secrets'. In speaking her truth, she released a ripple of healing into the world. Links to Kirsty: @KirstyTV on insta, youtube and FB. http://www.kirstytv.com/ Book Recommendations: When the body keeps the score - Bessel van der Kolk, M.D. Oneness by Rasha. READ THE FULL TRANSCRIPTION of the EPISODE HERE (or download the pdf):

**IMPORTANT: This podcast episode was transcribed by a 3rd party service and so errors can occur throughout the following pages:

Mike: Welcome to The Respect podcast, I'm your host Mike Domitrz from mikespeaks.com, where we help organizations of all sizes, educational institutions and the U.S. military create a culture of respect and respect is exactly what we discuss on this show, so let's get started.

Mike: Welcome to this episode of The Respect podcast, today we've got Kirsty Spraggon here, I want to let you know all about her. She is about ...she's been interviewing truth tellers for the past ten years and working on her documentary, The Truth Teller Project, has given Kirsty a unique perspective on truth. Her episodes have been seen my two million people in 120 countries, capturing emotionally raw and powerful stories from those who've endured some of the worst kinds of sexual abuse, risen up from trauma, overcome addiction and moved forward from shame and stigma. Thank you Kirsty so much for joining us.

Kirsty: Of course. Happy to be here.

Mike: Well we're thrilled to have you here. How do you feel that respect plays a part in the work you do as a truth teller?

Kirsty: Oh I mean, to me respect starts with self-respect, I think self leadership, self love, self respect, whichever word you want to use, it's like if you don't respect yourself ... this week we've been doing a class with people that's been going pretty deep and the amount of people who have self loathing, you know, that internal voice and criticism. You know next to me, that's disrespectful and harmful emotionally to ourselves to have that kind of thing going on. And then obviously I feel like in the bigger conversation of the work I do with interviews, it's respectful to our community, and to family members, to become truth tellers because when we hide who we are, we play a role in being part of the reason that things like mental health have a stigma. The reason that people don't share when they've been through a trauma. You become part of the problem when you don't open up and share.

Mike: So let's dive into that, truth teller, a lot of people who haven't heard that term before, may not be fully comprehend what you're referencing. So what does it mean to be a truth teller?

Kirsty: For me, it's just sharing your truths and there's big and small truths, you know there's big truths in terms of what we may have been through, abuse, addiction, depression. And then there's also small daily truths of "I'm just not enjoying this conversation right now." And standing up for what we believe in and sharing when we're uncomfortable in the moment. Or I'm not doing the work that I want to do in the world or I'm not happy in my relationship. So I think there's big and small truths down to the kind of [inaudible 00:02:54], individual conversations that we're in all day, every day. Do we share the truth? Are we coming from a place of authenticity? Are we feeling like we're being fully seen, that we can show up with all of who we are. Or is the culture that we're in making us feel like we have to hide some of that or is it our mindset and the self loathing and the tapes that we have playing in our head that are making us feel like we can't tell our truth.

Mike: So there's a lot of unpack there. You had mentioned whether you're having a conversation with someone, and you don't like where the conversation's going, will you say that? So are you recommending that if somebody is having a conversation with somebody, they don't like where it's going, they just go, "Hey, I don't like where this conversation is going."?

Kirsty: Yeah, I mean look, I was just watching a really great video around the Me Too movement with six men, I think it was ... the guy who manages Justin Bieber and some very high profile people, [inaudible 00:03:56], so these gentlemen were talking about how the Me Too movement is impacting them, how the conversation they're having and one of the interesting things they said is that every single one of them at some point, had been complicit in being around someone who has sexually harassed a woman. And when they were in college, they didn't have the courage ... or when they had, some of them had actually said something, so you know that's not cool and then they felt like they were then made fun of or isolated from the group and so again it comes back to when you have respect for yourself, you're okay with maybe this isn't my clique.

Kirsty: Maybe this isn't where I don't want to sell out my soul to do something that goes against my core values. And so I think that when we have that respect for ourself and we build our strengths, to tell our truth, then we become comfortable in all those situations. So yeah, totally I think that you've gotta build that muscle, it doesn't come easily and it's harder when you're younger to have that courage but yeah, you have to get to a point where you can just say in a conversation, or pull someone aside and say, "You know, I don't know where that behavior came from or what was going on but that really upset me, it's not something that I wanna be around or want to have a friend of mine engaging in."

Kirsty: Because otherwise, as the men said in this interview, really you're just as complicit as the perpetrator because they don't get to continue that behavior without everyone else giving them permission to.

Mike: Well I love that discussion, it's something that we talk to audiences about all over the world about how to intervene in those moments. How do you help people gain the skills and the confidence to be able to speak up for themselves, for others?

Kirsty: You know I think it's a journey, I think for me you know it certainly was, it's taken 20 years, I don't think it's something that any of us ... and I don't think you ever get there, I think it's a continual work in progress and the more I told my big truths, the more I found myself telling all those little truths. And so for me, it was kind of like one followed the other 'cause when you hide all the big stuff, then you're hiding all the little stuff and it's all compounded in shame and secretism and isolation and not wanting to be seen or found out or if anyone gets too close to you, so you know it shuts down vulnerability, we put up walls emotionally. We don't have as many friends, we maybe avoid people because when you have all that sort of big things going on that you're not telling anyone, it takes a lot of energy to ... it's like keeping a lid on a boiling pot of water so all your energy goes towards that.

Kirsty: I think once you get to a place where you can share some of those bigger truths, then you're more comfortable and confident with being able to have authentic conversations in your daily life. And it becomes a practice but in terms of how do we get to sharing those bigger truths first, you know that's working through the shame and the stigma. whether it's someone that's have an STD or they've been through sexual abuse or rape, or that they have addiction issues, you know it's finding support groups, finding safe places, journaling, gratitude lifts and starting to really do this inner work. You know I think that we value going to work and being at work so much and we do 50 to 70 hours a week some people and have no holidays and no time off and but yet when do we do this inner work? Deep inner work, we're not just talking about somebody who has something small going on, we're talking about those kinds of traumas, shame, stigmas, things that ... they're carrying a secret that has self loathing going on or they have depression or anxiety on a daily basis.

Kirsty: When you have that sort of thing going on, it requires deep inner work and it may take you know a few hours every day or all weekend, and cause there will be times when you're just processing and you need down time or you need to go to therapy. Then you need that process and unpack all the comes up from that, you need to just go to the beach and be gentle with yourself and give you time to feel all the new things that are coming up and process through it.

Mike: And so you bring up something very good, you said our big truths, but that's always interesting because one person's big truth, to somebody else could feel like a small truth. It really depends on your view, but if it's big to you, it's big. That's all that matters and you speak about your big truths. So let's go back a little bit, where did this journey around truth and shame begin for you?

Kirsty: So for me, I had gotten herpes, a sexually transmitted disease in my early, sort of 19-20 and you know again, this plenty of people who are like, "Oh, it's like a pimple, what's the big deal?" So for them it isn't a secret and doesn't hold any shame. But in 2018, I still get weekly calls from people who are depressed and suicidal who are newly diagnosed. So there's still a massive amount of stigma around having an STD. And so everyone with whatever secret they have, it's not just the secret, it's all the way that it impacts your life. So having an STD means that you now have to have that conversation with someone that you just met and you're dating. So it takes away a piece of your freedom. So there's all these different pieces whether you've been through a miscarriage or abortion or a rape. And there's things within each of those that only someone who's ever been through it, really get that kind of ricochet and ripple effect of how it impacts them in terms of shame and sometimes it can be really insidious.

Kirsty: Like you don't even realize that this could impact you in so many ways and you're sort of in a shame vortex. But that takes work and time, like you usually you recognize it when you start isolating or numbing, using something to cope, whether is a couple glasses of wine, or drugs, you start engaging in behavior that isn't really loving to yourself and you feel a little bit out of control.

Kirsty: They're all signals for people to kind of go, "Oh wow, something is not working in my life here, I'm avoiding feelings, this is too painful, too uncomfortable to wanna sit in."

Mike: And so in that journey for you, what you recognized that, how did you get to that place of recognizing for you that, I am not in a place that I want to be. I need to take a step forward here, to get into the place where you did a TED talks on this specific topic that you thought you felt shame around. You did not want it to come out of the dark. How did you go to that place of now doing a TED talk where millions of people are going to see you sharing that story and for you, what was a big truth?

Kirsty: I think that you have to get to a place where the pain is worse than the fear, so I was miserable, I wasn't happy, I was isolating, I was numbing, I was engaging in behaviors that weren't really healthy or loving to myself. And I think that being a speaker and being in this world and growing up in sales, I'd listened to [inaudible 00:10:47] since I was 13 years old on the old cassette tapes so it okay. So I think I had this seed planted around dreaming big in the work space that you could dream big, that you could do anything that built my resilience and my confidence and I think that was for me, was important in a way that I didn't even know until much later. But it was always there, building and so for a while, I kept those things separate, you know success was camouflaging my unworthiness, I stayed so busy that I didn't have time, I was so distracted, busyness is another way to numb, over exercising, over working.

Kirsty: When we don't have any space or capacity when we're not meditating or sitting in [inaudible 00:11:28]. So then we don't have to hear our own voice and all of the misery. So for me, it was a long journey and it just happened that you know I was curious, I [inaudible 00:11:39] I was a truth seeker, I knew I was uncomfortable, I knew I was unhappy but I didn't really know what to do. But I would seek, I would seek out mentors, I would seek out courses, I was a conference junkie, I would seek out books. I was reading other peoples stories and I started the show and I was interviewing people but I wasn't telling my truth at that point and so then all of these things over the years, all these different modalities from [inaudible 00:12:03] to-

PART 1 OF 3 ENDS [00:12:04]

Kirsty: Over the years, always different modalities from EFT to therapy, all played a role in me building up my tools, my backpack, so that when I got to the place where I felt ready, and even on the day when I decided to share in the TEDx talk I wanted to vomit all day long. I was so nauseous and so ill for hours, so it doesn't mean that the fear ever fully goes away, you just get to a place where you're willing to hold its hand and take a leap any way.

Mike: Before we dive into the TED talk and you having that moment on stage and revealing on stage, do you think there's a way, 'cause for your journey and many people that I meet around the world, for many of us, I think what you said was brilliant, that the pain has to outweigh the fear. That makes us make the step forward 'cause we don't want the pain anymore.

Mike: Is there a way for people to have this journey without having to get to that place? To that place of so hurt, so dark, that I've got to do something or else?

Kirsty: I'm going through a new journey right now and I'm in the process of healing that and figuring out what it all means, and I certainly am much more confident. It doesn't mean that you don't have the emotional pain when you have to sit with the memories, the trauma, when stuff is coming up for you. It doesn't mean that the pain disappears entirely, but I don't have the pain and the fear around sharing, around doing the work, around sitting in it all. Like I know that there's a process, I know that you have to kind of go through the fire to get to the other side, I know that it's going to feel worse before it feels better.

Kirsty: So you also build, and I think that this is the same with any skill in life, any entrepreneurial journey, you build like a frame of reference for success when you go through something. So having that early journey around shame taught me what the process looked like and that there was an end result, that yes it's going to be painful, yes it's going to be uncomfortable, but I'm going to be okay. Most of these voices are just in my head, most of the worries don't ever happen. And the same with business. You know there's this frame of reference, so whether you go skydiving, no matter what you do, you've got all this frame of reference for, I did this, this happened, this worked out and now I'm at the other side.

Kirsty: So for me, healing's kind of the same. I don't think anyone needs to wait until they get to that rock bottom. For some of us that dark night of the soul is part of the journey, but I think at any point you can choose to go, "Okay, how do I find resources, podcasts like this and mentors and courses and figure out how maybe somebody else has already gone through this." For me that's one of the reasons that I speak so much through other peoples stories and books, and in the interviews that I do, because then you're hearing from someone who's gone before you and you get to hear what helped them the most and how they got through it. So it gives you hope and wisdom. I think you always have to learn some of your own lessons, but it certainly helps to hear them from someone who's gone before you.

Mike: Yeah, when we created 'The Voices of Courage' E-Book, audio book and book, it's a book of survivors sharing their stories, and it's amazing how many people really find it powerful because through those other voices, through those 10 women and two men, they can see traces of themselves and in having that experience they also get to see these 12 people are living their lives. They're living and they're thriving and they can then see, because I relate to their journey, I can get there too. There is a path for me too.

Mike: So I think what you bring up there is so brilliant about finding others who've gone through this experience because the reality is, there are always people who have gone through what you've gone through. It may not be the exact same situation, but the same emotional pain on some level has been felt by other people before. Most of our pains are not truly unique. Research shows that, that we are not unique. The mistake is thinking that my pain is different than other peoples pain. That is what can cause you to stay in the dark versus recognizing, oh, I am having pain here that someone else has had too. Where are they? Where can I find them? Which is what you're referencing there, and I think that's so powerful for people to get.

Mike: The earlier you can do that, you may never have to get to that dark place, right? Because if you start to go, "I'm starting to feel pain or numbing about this topic, who else has gone through this?" You might be able to kick me out of that before I ever go to that dark place. So I think for people [inaudible 00:16:48] the same, the earlier you can seek and the earlier you can share, the more freedom you get quicker.

Kirsty: Exactly.

Mike: Now you shared on a massive level. You shared on a TED talk, where for some people it might be share with your best friend, start there.

Kirsty: Right, someone you trust, someone you feel safe with.

Mike: Share with someone you trust, exactly. Maybe it's a therapist, maybe it's a counselor, but someone you feel safe with.

Kirsty: Yeah, people often ask me how do I know? You're going to get it wrong. When you're younger obviously we're not as discerning and we're maybe not as tuned into our intuition, but certainly look for red flags. If you're going to tell someone, think about how do they talk and engage with you? Do they typically engage in gossip? Have they told you private information about other friends? Look at the person you're going to share this with so that you can do as much as possible to find a safe space.

Mike: I love that advice about looking ...

Kirsty: And that they're open minded.

Mike: Yeah, that's brilliant. Look at the track record of the person.

Kirsty: And if you maybe shared something else with them and just see how they respond. It doesn't even have to be about you, but just talk about something that's going on in the news and see how they respond. If they're critical of similar things, then they may not be a healthy place for you to share either. If you're not going to get something positive from them or they're going to be judgemental, you've got to make sure that you look at why you're telling this person and are they a safe place and are they going to be able to provide some comfort or insight.

Mike: I love that. So now that you're at the TED talk, you're about to share publicly this truth for you that could be painful, that there's been shame around for years, but now you're ready to talk. So a couple of questions. 1. What was that like to share on such a massive level? Now in the room there, there's a few 100. There's not a million people live, but there's a few 100 and that's pressure, but then you know it's going to be out to the world, so what was it like to do that? What was the response and what a journey has that taken you on since?

Kirsty: Okay, a lot of questions there. What was it like? I'll start with that. It was hard. As you said, even on that day I still wasn't ready and it was challenging because I had so much anxiety and nausea that I couldn't tell, am I supposed to do this or is the fact that I'm having this response telling me that I shouldn't be? Am I going to make the biggest mistake of my life? What is this going to do for my career? I'm this motivational speaker in corporate world and here I am doing a TEDx talk on herpes and what if someone finds it online, it's out there forever. All those things were going through my head.

Kirsty: But there was this deep inner knowing that it was time. It was time to set myself free, it was time to share my truth, it was time to stop feeling like a fraud, I just knew on some level that this was what was going to lead to my freedom. And I had enough experience and frame of reference with other experiences that when I listened to myself and my inner knowing and my guidance system, that I had always ended up better off that I had always ... it had led to success in some way, shape or form.

Kirsty: So I knew that I had a feeling that everything was going to work out even though I had all those fear voices and tapes playing, I was able to be rational around them and ignore them and push through. Once I got the words out, like maybe a minute in or something to the talk, I felt like just a weight had lifted. It was like, "Ah, it's done now, I can just talk." And I don't think I realized, in my head at the time I thought that the fact that I could do the TEDx talk was like, "I'm done, I'm healed, I'm at this place finally." I felt like the work was done and I didn't realize that it was only just beginning. That sharing the truth was like opening up this huge part of my heart and vulnerability in myself that I didn't know and that there was going to be a freedom ... it just shifted so many things.

Kirsty: It was like when the real work began. Okay, now you've gotta look at ... now you've shifted the secret or the thing that you hold shame around, but what about the 20 years of damage done in terms of the way you think and behave and show up in relationships and intimacy and all the other things, the tape that you've been running. So then you have to start doing the work to repair all of that and pull off each of those pieces individually and take a look at them and work through them.

Mike: What I love about that is the fact that it reminds us all that if you're going to transform that doesn't mean you go back to how you were yesterday. Transformation means I'm different then I ever was before and I'm not the person I was before. I'm a different human being now. So with that awakening, I now feel everything, I now know who my true self is so I can notice I don't want to be the past 20 years, which means I have work every day. I don't just have work for the next week, I don't just have work for the next few months, I have work every day of my life for the rest of my life to be that pure truest self I want to be. That's what you're referencing?

Kirsty: Yes exactly.

Mike: So how did people react to that? What did you hear as you gave this sharing experience through the TEDx talk?

Kirsty: The feedback was immediate. As I walked off stage they had lined up, full crew behind, and were giving me high fives as I walked past. One of my best friends was outside when I came off and I just said, "Oh my gosh, that's either going to be the stupidest thing I ever did or the bravest thing." And I got to talk to quite a few people who were at the event. And then it took three months for it to go off online on the TEDx site, so in that time I was able to hear from people that they had seen this video and that it had opened them up to share other kinds of truth, and since then have received thousands of messages and emails. So it definitely changed the trajectory of my career. I've shifted in a lot of ways.

Kirsty: The work that I was doing in corporate and am incorporating a lot more of this because you can't go professionally where you won't to go personally. So this stuff shows up as CEO's of fortune five hundred companies and where our past shows up in our present, those past behaviors of being bullied or abused, if we don't heal them can show up dysfunctionally in the workplace. So it's definitely influenced a lot of what I do and it's much more rewarding for me to be able to help people work through this tougher stuff.

Mike: And you and I have talked about this before. The fact that what you were sharing about was such a personal situation. A sexually transmitted disease or infection is very personal and people think, "Well that's not going to relate to the corporate world." But yet companies are coming to you, organizations are coming to you as you just referenced saying, "Hey can you share this message with our people?" Could you explain how that fits, how that aligns? You made a little reference there just now about, hey if we don't have these truths affect us in the workplace, so can we dab a little deeper into that?

Kirsty: Yeah, like I said, you can't go professionally where you won't go ...

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Kirsty: Yeah, I mean like Em said, you can't go professionally where you won't go personally. So, an example would be I was working with a CEO who ... he had built as a solo entrepreneur a $30 million company. And we were talking about the past showing up in the present. And one of the behaviors that he had noticed as a leader is he felt anxiety around always getting it wrong.

Kirsty: Now, you can imagine, as leader of a $30 million business, you have to make some decisions and not be afraid that you're always going to get it wrong. And that would have a serious impact on his work and his leadership style. And when we looked at that and where it had come from, it was back to about age two or three. His father was an alcoholic, and so he was constantly as a child being made to feel wrong, to step on eggshells, to never know which father was going to show up at home at night. And to be feeling like he disappointed him, that he got everything wrong, that nothing was ever right.

Kirsty: And so most organizations don't have these kinds of conversations, or don't allow the space for it. But when you do, it's amazing what comes up. And then they just have these aha moments and they're like, "Wow, I never thought that that might be connected. That might my past is showing up in my present." And so I think there's a lot of ways that looking at truth telling ... because it's not about my personal story, and I say that to clients. Sometimes I don't even go into that, it really depends on the situations. But it's not about the individual, because every single person we know statistically, the numbers show us, that in every room of CEO's that I work with and leadership groups and conferences, there are pretty much one in three to one in five of every person in that room, whether it's addiction, rape, trauma, depression, suicide. It's one in three to one in five for most things.

Kirsty: And so every single person in that room has been impacted by something. And that's what it's about, looking at where personally something has gone on for you, and how if you haven't healed that, cleared that, worked through that, it might be showing up in self loathing, in maybe not being the person who'll speak up in the boardroom, or ask for a pay rise, or share ideas. So maybe you become more closed off. Or for others it can be hyper aggressiveness, bullying and putting up defenses in that way. Or, like myself, success camouflaged all of my unworthiness, and so staying hyper busy and busy in every way, talking fast, eating fast, being on the go. Like I was just the most frenetic masculine energy kind of person. And now, being able to be more into my truth self and to feel like I can have that femininity, that I can slow down. That I can connect in meaningful ways, that I don't have to get pulled into other people's energy or agenda.

Kirsty: It's like all of that is important in showing up as our best self and being able to be creative, and to be an amazing person and leader at home and at work.

Mike: Well, and it's such a freedom that it gives you, versus feeling like you're living by others, right? By this pressure, by this guilt, by this shame, by these expectations. I can just be, I can just be present.

Mike: Now, earlier you mentioned meditation and giving yourself time for that. What are the practices that you utilize in your life to make sure that you're honoring that space of being you in your thoughts and your feelings, and not numbing by staying busy? Because most of us do it, and some of you might be thinking, "Well, I don't really keep myself busy," but if we watched you, you'd be looking at your phone right now if someone wasn't engaging you, which is an exact form of keeping busy.

Mike: So, it's not keeping busy as in you have to be in motion, it's that the mind or the body has to keep busy. It could be either or both. So, what are ways you help yourself? You mentioned meditation, what are some ways?

Kirsty: The biggest thing is that I started a daily energy management chart. So, I wrote a whole list of things, whether it's using essential oils, staged smudging, salt bath showers, things that clear energy. And so I started looking at, for me, whenever I went into anxiety, it was actually energetic sensitivity. That I would become so overwhelmed and so tired, and drained easily by big groups of people, for me it was more about managing my energy.

Kirsty: So, now what I'll do, on Saturday is a good example, I went on a road trip with some friends to San Diego, it's a three hour drive. So, by the time we drove down there, we stopped, we had lunch with some people, then we went to the beach, then we drove to the next house and we had dinner. By the end of the day, I wasn't enjoying myself. I'd lost my joy of having those conversations. What I should have done is at 2 or 3 O'Clock gone and had half an hour to lay down, to meditate, to just be by myself. And just collect back my sense of self, and not feel so pulled, so drained, so tired from everybody else's energy, and all the connections and the conversations.

Kirsty: And so I'm getting much better at that. I really am conscious to, I call it pressing pause, in the middle of the day. So for me, it's by about one or two O'Clock, I found when I was using this chart, I would monitor my numbers. So, every two hours for a week or two, good for people to do this, at 8 AM, 10 AM, 12 O'Clock, 4 O'Clock, 6 O'Clock, that kind of thing, just to check in on a scale of one to ten, one being that I'm feeling really low, and ten being I'm the highest vibration that I could possibly be. And then I would notice that I would start at a ten, and I would drop down to an eight, or a seven, or a six.

Kirsty: And if I didn't catch it by the time it was about a six or a seven, by the end of the day I would be at a two, and the next day I would start lower. And it would be cumulative, and by the end of the week I couldn't catch back up.

Kirsty: So, I found by pressing pause at about 2 O'Clock when I'd find those numbers were dropping a little bit, at about a six or a seven, I can go do a five minute meditation, a ten minute run around the block, lay down even and have a little cat nap. Whatever it is, I have a great stress hypnosis CD I use, and I love the insight timer App, and the liberal weight series, it's beautiful. So, it can be something very short and simple with a lot of deep breathing. And I can bring myself back to center, and I can bring my numbers back up to an eight, or a nine, or a ten, very quickly if I press pause in the middle of the day.

Kirsty: So that for me has probably been the biggest shift in noticing that I'm like a runaway train, and if I don't press pause and I don't notice it, I'm going to end up more depleted and more exhausted over the coming days, and not be able to bring myself back to center as easily.

Kirsty: And then for me, what are those things I have a list at the bottom of the page on my chart of the things that bring me back to center fast? And so going to the beach, putting my feet in the water, within 20 minutes if you're close enough to be able to do that. What are those things for you? Is it watching the sunset, is it watching your kids play? Is it being away from your kids? Meditation?

Kirsty: So, finding two or three things that are your quick go to that I can use to press pause and gather myself really fast. I mean I love journaling, gratitude lists are proven, the research behind gratitude lists and how they can affect us emotionally is there. As with exercise. So, for people suffering with anxiety and mental health, the first thing I say to them is, "Are you exercising? Are you eating right? Are you not drinking alcohol? Are you doing gratitude lists?" This takes inner work, it doesn't shift on its own. It takes work and homework for you to learn these skills.

Kirsty: And then they get easier and they become a natural part of your day. But it's frustrates me how many people I meet who want to go on medication, who are so desperate, but they're not doing any of these things.

Mike: Well, what we're going to do is we're going to provide everyone a link to that chart so that they can be able to see this and utilize this, because it's such a great tool that you provide. So that's wonderful.

Mike: I want to thank you Kirsty, because you've given us so much wisdom here, and so much skills that we can use to find our truth, to speak our truths, and to be aware of our energy levels. So, thank you so much.

Kirsty: My pleasure.

Mike: For all of our listeners, you can find Kirsty at kirstytv.com, it's that easy. Kirstytv.com. She also has two books she really recommends, I'm going to have those in the show notes, so you've got to go see the show notes to find out what those are. You can always do that at respectpodcast.com, or on iTunes right in your show notes.

Mike: Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Respect podcast, which was sponsored by the Date Save Project, at datesaveproject.org. And remember, you can always find me at mikespeaks.com.

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