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Public–private partnerships (P3s) have long been used as a tool for delivering complex infrastructure projects in Canada, but the landscape is changing. In this episode, Riccardo and his panel of experts explore how P3s have evolved and what that means for today’s projects, funding models, and risk-sharing dynamics.
In this two-part series, Emily Moore (University of Toronto), Pouya Zangeneh (University of Calgary), and Rob Pattison (Rob Pattison Consulting) bring industry, academic, and legal perspectives to the conversation. Together, they unpack how shifting risk appetites, funding structures, and partner roles are reshaping both the potential and the challenges of using P3s.
From the financial nuances of availability versus revenue deals to the often-overlooked behavioural impacts of changing equity stakes, this discussion offers timely insights for anyone curious about what makes these partnerships succeed or fail.
Key Takeaways
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“Any contractor that they're going to hire is completely independent. They're a third party. And so if to protect your equity as the owner and if to protect the business, you've got to bankrupt your contractor, well, you know, you won't have qualms about that. I mean, other than as a sort of human being walking around on this planet. But from a financial perspective, you won't have any qualms about that because your only relationship is that contract and you've got securities and you've got this and that and you've got the other thing. And the interesting thing in a P3 is if everybody in that family has their own P and L and if they take it to the logical extension, and Ricardo, you'll correct me, but if you're a public company, every officer of that company who's got a P and L has a fiduciary duty to deliver for the public company. And well, my responsibility is my P and L. And if protecting my P and L means bankrupting another division, actually that's what I got to do unless the board wants to overrule me.” - Rob Pattison
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Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.
Welcome to Uncharted Conversations, a new Navigating Major Programmes series designed to disrupt industry thinking one unscripted conversation at a time. In each episode, the panelists bring their diverse perspectives to the table as self-dubbed industry pirates, adopting a mercenary approach to calling out industry challenges. Up first: collaborative contracts.
David Ho is the National Leader of Healthcare and Buildings for Accenture. Melissa Di Marco is a Partner and specialist in Project Advisory and Disputes at Accuracy. Shormila Chatterjee is the Vice President of EY. Together, these experienced programme professionals discuss the complexities of collaborative contracting in the infrastructure sector, including often-seen core competency shortcomings and the importance of empowering the right decision makers.
Too often, collaboration is misconstrued as the project goal when it is, in fact, merely one possible vehicle. This conversation delves into market participation, trust issues and risk allocation, and why technical skill shouldn’t top the recruitment checklist. Decision-making, competency, and governance are painstakingly dissected in this no-holds-barred discussion that highlights the problems not with collaborative contracts themselves but with the assumption that choosing this model will fix all the problems. Join these leaders as they explore why the infrastructure industry might be ready for a seismic systemic shift.
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“The idea will be to enter into a process with a winning counterparty. We can call them whatever we want, development partner, whatever it might be. But that period of dialogue and iteration, if it is prescribed by an even more detailed rulebook, in my mind, it doesn't matter if the end of that rulebook still doesn't have a fixed price. All you're doing is layering on a set of rules that is now a wholly dependent upon the behavioural interpretations of the people playing the game. And if the behavioural interpretation is, I'm going to use the rules to my advantage to exploit your bad writing of the rules, or I'm going to use the rules to my advantage to compel you to obey no matter what. Then forget it. It's not collaborative. It is just a more involved rule book for less certainty of outcome.” - David Ho
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Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.
How is urban art developed in cooperation with planners, developers, and architects? Public art is designed to be viewed and enjoyed from many angles. Riccardo embraces this 360-degree perspective in this episode by examining a component of major programmes that is not often explored: the development of the impressive art installations on display in many public buildings. He speaks with Corail Bourrelier Fabiani, a former host of the podcast and the passionate programme manager behind London’s Shard and Paddington Square sculptures.
Corail outlines the intricate relationship between public art and major urban developments in the city, from why it’s so important to inspire ongoing wonder in our concrete jungles to the challenges of getting involved late in the development process. Her experiences highlight the importance of stakeholder collaboration and the many moving parts that must be navigated to create something beautiful, lasting, and welcoming for tourists and residents alike—something that helps define the fabric of the city around us.
Takeaways:
Quote: “There are a lot of sculptures around us that we, after a while, we don't even see. And I would say, like, it's true. It's true with a lot of the urban fabric that when you get used to something, you just stop like looking at it. If you take the tube in Paris, for example, like the very old entrances to the tube with like the lights and the way they're shaped, etc. This kind of Art Deco, like, beautiful entrance. Most people don't even see them anymore, you know. Or if you walk along alongside the Thames and you go closer to the Tate, you would see these lampposts that have big fish at the bottom of them that are, you know, around the lamppost. And a lot of people, because we're so. There are so many images, etc, or we're too much into our own world, like thinking about our issues, our, like our next meeting, et cetera, we just walk past them without even noticing what's around us. And I think art, the magic of art is that sometimes it grabs your attention, you don't know why, and it makes you stop for a second and realize that your surroundings, or be completely amazed that you notice that element.” - Corail Bourrelier Fabiani
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Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.
What does the future of construction technology hold for industry and investors? Through more than a decade of work in construction tech and AEC-focused venture capital, Alice Leung has seen much of the technology being developed for construction in recent years, as well as the challenges forward-thinking tech startups face as they pursue adoption and implementation of their software within this hard-to-crack industry.
Navigating Major Programmes delves into the past, present, and future of construction technology as Riccardo speaks with Alice about the sector’s opportunities and limitations. They discuss the importance of sector expertise in venture capital, the evolution of AEC technology, and the impact of delivery models on technology adoption. Their conversation explores the significance of collaboration and the impact technology can have on this approach, as well as incentive alignment and the potential of robotics in addressing labour shortages. Alice’s take on cultural shifts that could lead to tech adoption and improve the safety and efficiency of building projects is both realistic and optimistic, emphasizing the rewarding nature of building long-lasting infrastructure.
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“I think, you know, when you, there's a lot of, kind of different angles and different problems where you can really see this, right? One of my favourite examples is obviously around BIM and VEC, right? Like, BIM has been around for a long time. Why hasn't it truly been adopted, right? And in theory you should have this federated model that everyone can leverage, right? That's the goal, right? Is like, you have this one single source of truth with everything that you need obviously to different complexities across the supply chain. But let's just pretend that we're in this perfect world right now where we have that fully coordinated model, everything makes sense. If we build off of it, we won't have any rework. We shouldn't have that many issues in the field. But if you think about just pure, if this was fixed price, contract, design, bid build with BIM, why does that fail? Because everyone needs a different level of detail. Everyone wants to maybe add or use different data in those models and to get to a model that is accurate enough for construction, you're really asking the design teams to put in so much more effort than really what they normally do. I think this is all about incentive alignment. And with the traditional contracting methods it's like, oh, why would I add more detail in my goodwill to help this other company who may mess me up in the future, right?” - Alice Leung
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Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.
How does a master insurance executive balance globe-trotting, raising a family, and pursuing meaningful projects? In this episode of the Master Builder series, Shormila explores the realities of professional and personal life in the C-suite with Sarah Roberts, the president of INTECH Risk Management.
Sarah delves into the history of insurance, both her own and how this vital component of infrastructure projects first came to be. In an industry that is evolving due to increased global and climate change demands, clear communication, public-private partnerships, and professional liability insurance as a whole have never been more important—but they’re only part of the story. Sarah’s intricate balance of career and family life is relatable or aspirational to so many. It highlights a dedication to both her chosen industry and personal passions, from overseeing risk management projects around the world to the challenges and rewards of being a working mother in two countries.
Key Takeaways:
“I think probably that sort of light bulb moment for me was, probably sitting in a meeting one day, and you had the insurance brokers and you had claims adjusters and they were all talking insurance speak to one of our clients. And you could just see them all sitting there, five of them with their eyes completely glazed over, having no idea what was going on. And I sort of stepped in and I said we need to speak English to people, right? And you know, it's great to throw around all the terminology and I am the biggest insurance geek. So you get me on the phone with insurance people and that's what we will speak, acronyms just like engineers will, right? We will, we will speak all of that sort of insurance ease that's there. But when you're talking to a layperson, it doesn't mean anything to them.” - Sarah Roberts
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Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.
What does it mean to build infrastructure that goes beyond causing or just avoiding friction with the policy side of the table? In this episode, David Ho—former lawyer, infrastructure strategist, and seasoned capital program and project manager—joins Riccardo to discuss how major projects are shaped not only by procurement models but by the complex, nuanced world of policy-making.
David has experience in helping stakeholders understand the limits of doing everything at once and the possibilities that emerge when we confront different questions. From collaborative contracting models to data governance in healthcare infrastructure, he challenges them to think beyond technical fixes and ask, What’s the real problem we’re solving for? The relationship between infrastructure professionals and policymakers should involve informing policy, not just executing it.
David and Riccardo explore why infrastructure can struggle to keep pace with need and the role risk aversion plays in enacting change.
”It's like we didn't examine what were the original root cause problems that were driving us to what we've been feeling and seeing in the last few years. And by that I mean what are both the political and market dynamics that are bigger than just us, uh, in the infrastructure space? I'll speak for what I see in Ontario, in Canada, because I obviously know that best. But I, I have a suspicion this is very, very similar in other places around the world. If you ask people, you know, why are we going into a collaborative model, by the way? You know, whatever your working definition of collaborative or progressive actually means, I think you would get a lot of different answers of what people are trying to solve for. And none of them are necessarily wrong. But if you add them together,sometimes we try and be too intellectually precise. We talk about risk, actually we talk about risk a lot, but we don't talk about market forces and dynamics and we don't talk about political pressures other than to just be really negative about them, but they're actually real.” - David Ho
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Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.
In engineering today, more and more people are choosing the generalist route, often pivoting off that solid, multi-faceted educational foundation into different fields. But what happens when you take the opposite route, honing in to pursue an aspect of your work that truly drives your passion?
In today’s episode of Navigating Major Programmes, hosts Riccardo Cosentino and Shormila Chatterjee speak with a Master Builder who did just that. After spending her early years on industrial projects, Wendy Itagawa returned to school for a Master’s in structural engineering, focusing on bridge design. Today, she serves as the Executive Director of Vancouver’s Pattullo Bridge Replacement Project, of which she’s been an integral part for more than seven years. She shares how working with and leading teams through the whole lifecycle of projects impacts how she views the work she has completed on some of the country’s most high-profile transportation initiatives.
”I really believe that even if it's a design build contract, it doesn't necessarily mean you don't have to be in one of these progressive collaborative models. So really comes down to the relationship and helping, helping each other. And I think sometimes what I've seen is, you know, owners or on their team that too almost afraid of helping too much or because you're afraid of getting claims or creating too many changes. But I think it actually prevents that and you know, claims are going to happen either way. So, but you can mitigate impacts a lot more if you do work collaboratively because you can sometimes reduce the time and, and costs if you work together on it. So yeah, I think sometimes being like that hands off owner approach is not, is not helpful.” — Wendy Itagawa
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Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.
How can teams take the concept of collaboration beyond lip service and virtue signalling to create stronger, more successful projects?
We know that collaboration is the cornerstone of alliance contracting models, but countless research shows us that when it comes to behavioural cohesion, teamwork, and empathy, the type of contract is immaterial—collaborative teams across industries and contract type perform better, see greater successes, and save more money than teams built on competition and infighting.
Emily Mahoney and Sarah Laurence, the founders of Mahoney & Matthews Consulting, work with high-performance teams, not only preparing them for the behavioural assessment that will win the project but also instilling the tenets of collaboration to carry all the way through to a successful culmination. Creating a true team takes more than a couple of nights out at the pub. It calls for hard, intentional conversations, deep honesty, and being human.
“So if you think about it, all leadership really is, is a set of behaviours that are used in a certain way. And it's not exactly the same behaviours as collaboration. They can obviously, they obviously overlap a lot. But collaboration as well is a set of behaviours that are used in certain ways. So in terms of organizational development org psych behaviours, there is a canon of research and of literature and there are people who spend a lot of time and money not only researching these things, but also making them accessible to people through books, podcasts, TED talks, etc.” - Emily Mahoney
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Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.
It can be easy to forget just how much seemingly unrelated skills and wisdom can inform the work we want to do. Impostor syndrome so often steps in, leaving us doubting our expertise because it doesn’t fit precisely with the knowledge we imagine a new position demands and holding us back from pursuing what we really want to achieve.
In this episode of Master Builders, Ricccardo and Shormila sit down with Salima Rawji, the President and CEO of York University Development Corporation. A theme of passion, creativity, and positivity runs through Salima’s long and varied career. She has experienced first-hand how experience in the public sector can inform the private and non-profit and vice versa and how, all along the way, collaboration makes things better. Salima’s willingness to say yes, refusal to accept the no’s, and determination to always learn more and know her facts have led to an inspiring and fulfilling career path.
”In terms of the imposter syndrome, I also think I pair it with the fact that like the answer for me is it never goes away because I think there's also this like desire for like continual growth and ambition. And so, perhaps I didn't feel it as much. I would say in my later years at Create TO, where I had been doing that work, I knew I was an expert. I was kind of like in a position of leadership and seen to be a leader by the political side, by the administrative side, by the staff that worked for me. Maybe that didn't exist as much, but the second I kind of took the step to grow, it's like instantly back. And so, I feel like maybe that's just a part of what growth is.” - Salima Rawji
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Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.
What if the construction industry is on the brink of a transformation as significant as the rise of the internet? With construction representing a massive portion of global GDP and a growing demand for infrastructure, how can innovation meet the challenge of a shrinking skilled labor force?
In this episode, Patric Hellermann and Shub Bhattacharya, co-founders of Foundamental and voices behind the Practical Nerds podcast, sit down with host Riccardo Cosentino to explain why they believe construction is the next major frontier for venture capital. They discuss how venture capital acts as a flywheel—fueling innovation, enabling founders, and driving customer adoption—and why patience and compounding value are crucial in this sector. Patric and Shub highlight the importance of understanding construction’s unique complexities, explain why AI should be seen as an enabler rather than the main solution, and examine how hidden innovations and new business models, like cloud manufacturing, are reshaping the industry.
“I really feel like we are in what I would describe as the equivalent of the internet 1.0 era in construction. Imagine you are somewhere, say 1994 or 1995, and someone tells you, there's an opportunity to be investing for the next decade or two in the internet. That would be a tremendous opportunity. Perhaps one of the greatest venture opportunities of a lifetime, maybe the greatest, right? I think it feels comparable. It feels very large. ” — Shub Bhattacharya
Key Takeaways
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Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.
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