Navigating the Customer Experience

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Art Harrison is the Co-Founder and Chief Growth Officer at Daylight. He's an experienced entrepreneur and leader with over 20 years of experience developing and delivering production grade solutions. With a background in computer science and software development, Art was previously Vice President at iNTERFACEWARE and previously founded MXD Communities in 2001.

Questions

• Could you share a little bit about your journey, how did you get to where you are today?
• Could you tell us a little bit about Daylight? And what Daylight does and how Daylight is helping their customers achieve their goals?
• Could you share with us how is it that consumers or organizations are able to increase their overall customer satisfaction and brand loyalty by offering positive and engaging Omni channels CX at scale?
• Could you share with our listeners what low-code is for those listeners who are not familiar with that? And why do you believe it's disrupting the CX landscape?
• You're in the CX space, as well as the design space, could you share with us maybe one or two things that you've seen emerge in the last few months that you will see as an ongoing trend, at least for 2023 in this space?
• Could you also share with us what is the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?
• Could you also share with our listeners maybe one or two books that have had a big impact on you, it could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently, but it still left a great impact on you.
• Could you also share with us what's one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.
• Where can listeners find you online?
• Now, could you also share with our listeners, do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote, it kind of helps to get you back on track if for any reason you get derailed.

Highlights

Art’s Journey

Art shared that like most people, it's been an interesting journey, it's not one that he would have mapped out in advance. But he'd say he’s always been passionate about using technology and building things. And he thinks that's been really the guiding principle of his career. So, he started off very entrepreneurial in the social networking and online dating space when he was in university. And really what he found from that led him to marketing and ultimately led him back to being a founder again, here at Daylight.

And it was just a passion to build things that people want to use, and to find ways to delight customers and end users along the way. And even though his career has spanned technical and marketing and other kind of lanes, the common thread has always been, “What do people need? And how can we make their lives better and delight them along the way?” And so, it's been an interesting journey. But he’s always excited about where it's going to lead him next.

About Daylight – What Does Daylight Do and How Daylight Helping Their Customers Achieve Their Goals

Art said absolutely. And kind of an interest of this podcast,

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Dr. Fred Moss is a holistic Physician, Restorative Coach, Podcaster, Psychiatrist Expert, Witness at Welcome to Humanity with Dr. Fred Moss. Dr. Moss arrived on Earth on March 01, 1958 and from that very second has been earmarked to be a healer. The family he was born into, was in chaos, and in many ways was counting on his arrival to bring health and wellness back into balance. Little Freddy had his hands full and over the next 6 decades, he has made it his business to bring healing to the world around him, not only to his family and friends, but to the community and world at large, what a journey it has been.

Questions

• Could tell us in your own words a little bit about your journey?
• Could you share with us as an organization, maybe one or two things that you can do as leadership in an organization or putting in place some form of programme to support team members where mental health is concerned in order to strengthen the customer experience?
• If there was one thing to do immediately to assist ourselves when we're feeling out of balance. What would you suggest that one thing would be?
• Could you share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?
• Could you also share with us and I'm sure you've read many, many books across your lifespan, especially in the field that you are in, but maybe one or two that have had a great impact on you, it could be a one that you read a very long time ago, or even one you've read recently, that you'd like to share with our listeners?
• Could you also share our listeners what's one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people?
• Where can listeners find you online?
• Do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge you'll tend to revert to this quote? It kind of helps to get you back on track if for any reason you get derailed or get off track. Do you have one of those?

Highlights

Dr. Moss’ Journey

Me: I know we read a little bit about your journey. And I didn't read your entire bio. But if you could tell us in your own words a little bit about your journey, I know your bio, the part that I did read did indicate that you have been doing quite a bit of work since you landed on Earth. And so, could you just share with our listeners a little bit about how you got to where you are today?

Dr. Moss shared that it has been a long strange trip. It's been a little over 64 years now and young at heart for sure. And there's lots of work to do. He arrived on that March 01, 1958 with the whole idea of being counted on to bring joy and pleasure and love and reconnection to that family. And for the first couple years, he probably did pretty good until his brothers got annoyed and irritated with him, he had two brothers, still do who 10 and 14 years older than him. And they taught him how to be precocious. They taught him how to read and write and do math, even before he arrived in kindergarten. Because when he arrived there, he was ahead of the class, he was doing things that most of the kindergarteners didn't want to do, he was like interested in flashcards and books and stuff like that.

He was also bored, so he became a class clown, there's nobody in elementary school, no teacher he ever had who certainly ever forgot him as a student. Because what he was really interested in more than anything, he thought school was going to show him how to communicate, he loved the way that his parents and his brothers communicated with each other, he could just watch him from the playpen. And he knew that there was something spe

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Laura Stewart is the Vice President of Canada's Top Real Estate firm, REC Canada. Having spent the last 8 years helping over 1,200 investors build out their real estate portfolios, Laura has turned her attention to helping other Real Estate Agents achieve top tier success through content creation. Now the owner and operator of From the Ground up Media (FTGU). Her company helps realtors produce, edit, and post content on social media with the objective of helping them build a community to do more deals.

Questions

• We always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words a little bit about their journey and how they got to where they are today.
• Could you tell us a little bit about what your company From the Ground up Media does? And how is it that you're able to help real estate agents in this capacity?
• Could you share with our listeners, maybe I would say two to three things or, let's say, activities, or maybe characteristics that are critical for you to be successful as a real estate agent on social media.
• Now, could you also share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?
• Could you also share with us maybe one or two books that have had the biggest impact on you, it could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you read recently, but it still has a great impact on you.
• Could you share with us maybe one or two things that you do personally to keep yourself motivated that may spiral a little bit of spark or thought-provoking things in someone's mind as to how maybe they could tweak or even modify their skills in motivation?
• Now, could you also share with us maybe one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.
• Where can listeners find you online?
• Do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote, it kind of helps to get you back on track if for any reason you got derailed?

Highlights

Laura’s Journey

Me: So, Laura, even though we do read your bio, which kind of gives a little synopsis of who you are, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words a little bit about their journey and how they got to where they are today. So, could you share that with our audience?

Laura shared that she'll try and keep it as short as she can because she thinks she has a fairly unique kind of background, in that she didn't know she was wanting to be a salesperson. She didn't know she wanted to get into real estate when she was a younger person. She really kind of took the lead of a Guidance Counsellor who said to her if she wanted to be successful in life, she needs to get into science. Why was that the narrative at the time, she’s not sure.

But she was like, of course, she wants to be successful. So, you're an adult, and she’s going to take your word for it. So, she went to school for nutrition, and learned pretty quickly on that that was just not going to be her lifelong journey. She did complete the programme and after that she kind of dabbled in the fashion world. She loves fashion, she loves helping her friends and family put together outfits. And she thought, well, this might be something that's interesting.

So, she started working at one of Canada's luxury retailers in their buying department, as a junior buyer, like intern at the time just to kind of get her feet wet. So, started right at the bottom from there. She was cleaning the kitchen and doing all the nitty gritty work that no one el

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Matt Swain is a recognized Customer Communications Industry Thought Leader. From delivering keynotes around the world to defining best practices, hundreds of well-known companies have relied on Matt’s expertise and research for their current and future omni-channel communication initiatives.

As Managing Director and Practice Lead for a Broadridge Communications Consulting, Matt brings in valuable market research and consulting expertise to clients relative to benchmarking, as well as for communication strategy, design and execution across print and digital channels.

Prior to joining Broadridge, Matt spent more than a decade at Keypoint Intelligence - InfoTrends, where he was a member of the senior management team with global responsibility for business development and customer communications advisory services. Matt is a graduate of Rochester Institute of Technology and holds a Master's degree in print media.

Questions

• We always like to give our guests the opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about their journey. How did you get to where you are today?
• The fourth annual CX and communication survey that your company had done, where you studied 3000 North American consumers, highlighting some of the major points and gaps in the customer experience two years into the pandemic. Could you tell us a little bit about the survey and some of the results that that survey created?
• What are some of the most interesting research that you have seen are conducted in the customer experience space, and could you share with us also maybe what are some of the things that have surprised you the most in that research?
• Now as it relates to personalization, the report says 65% of consumers would prefer to receive fewer, more tailored communications through their preferred channel. What has your research shown in terms of, do you still find companies all over the place?
• So, you said that consumers were looking for a more engaging digital experience, could you share with us maybe one or two things that you think a company could employ or put in place to make their digital experience more engaging?
• What are your thoughts on organizations, because digital, it's been accelerated because organizations who weren't even fully digital or were looking to put digital as part of their strategy definitely had to do some quick acceleration because of the fact that we're all stuck at home. How do they bridge that gap? Because people I think still want human interaction?
• Could you share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?
• Can you also share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about, either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people?
• How can listeners find you online?
• Do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get overwhelmed or challenge? And the quote kind of helps to get you back on track or just get you back refocused.

Highlights

Matt’s Journey

Matt stated that he was listening to that bio and he was thinking, he actually didn't realize Yanique read the whole thing. So, thank you for doing that. As where you ended was that he holds a Master's in print media and that's a very specific degree, especially for a master's degree. And many of the people that went through that programme, were going back to run print operations, they might have had a family business or otherwise.

And he was actually interested

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Andrew Ou is an award-winning UX strategist, designer and author based in Vancouver, BC. He helps SaaS companies increase their revenue and profitability by reducing cost of support and while building a better customer experience. His past clients include HSBC, Rosetta Stone, and Asurion.

Questions

• Can you share in your owns words, a little bit about your journey, how did you get to where you are today?
• Now, customer experience, SaaS products, support services, can you share with us maybe some trends that you see emerging or have emerged since 2022 as it relates to this part of service delivery or customer experience?
• From a UX strategy point of view if you're building a product, how does the client or the customer travel through the journey that you are taking them through in a digital way, while still holding all of the same principles and values that you would if it was a face to face interaction, or even over the phone? So, how can we translate that in a positive way? And if it's not done positively? Why would it impact our revenue and profitability?
• One of the other things that we do get asked a lot is, how can we reduce the cost of customer support? So, what's one way? Would the strategy, putting something in place that eradicates that complaint from coming forward again be one way to reduce customer support? And are there any other ways?
• Could you also share with our audience maybe I would say 1 to 3 tips that you believe will help organizations build a better customer experience?
• Could you also share with our audience what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?
• Could you also share with us maybe one or two books that you have read, it could be a book that you read recently, or maybe one that you read a very long time ago, but it has had a big impact on you.
• Could you also share with us what's one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.
• Where can listeners find you online?
• Do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote, it kind of helps to get you back on track if for any reason you got derailed or you got off track.

Highlights

Andrew’s Journey

Me: So, we always like to give our guests the opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about their journeys. So, how did you get to where you are today? I know we read like a brief bio, but it's always good to get in guests own words, a little bit about their own journey.

Andrew shared that he started off in UX design, he’s been doing that for he thinks over around 8 to 10 years now. And like Yanique mentioned, he used to work for companies like HSBC, Asurion and fit brains Rosetta Stone. And now he’s just sort of running his own consultancy where he helps SaaS founders build beautiful products that impact the world. And a lot of that has to do with creating an excellent customer journey and a good customer experience.

Customer Experience, SaaS Products, Support Service – Trends Emerging Since 2022 as it Relates to Service Delivery and Customer Experience

Me: Now, customer experience, SaaS products, support services, can you share with us maybe some trends that you see emerging or have emerged since 2022 as it relates to this part of service delivery or customer experience?

Andrew shared that he thinks there's a very interesting intersection between customer experience and user experience, mainly that, both of the words and with experience and so it's a very interesting intersection, because they s

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We have a return guest Jason Ten-Pow. Jason was on our podcast last year September and he has returned. Jason is the son of immigrants, moved to Canada with his family when he was seven years old. His passion for customer experience was sparked as a teenager while working behind the meat counter of a carnival-themed grocery store in Toronto, Ontario. From there, Ten-Pow co-ran a niche computer technology company, Visionary Enterprises, that built and installed computers and networks.

This venture taught him the basics of running a business and his commitment to customer service sparked the confidence to found ONR, his CX consulting firm in 2001. As the founder and president of ONR, Ten-Pow has expanded his lifelong passion for creating unbreakable customer relationships into an organization with more than 20 years of experience helping renowned brands evolve their customer success stories.

Questions

• What is Blockchain? what are you talking about? So, could you share with us a little bit about what Blockchain is and how that even can impact customer experience?
• Could you give me in real life terms like, I'm a business; let's say, for example, I own a retail outlet, how does Blockchain affect me, I'm selling stuff online, I have a retail store where customers can come in face to face. What does that mean for my customers?
• Who do you see adopting Blockchain in terms of customer?
• Could you expound for us as it relates to data transparency and consumer loyalty?
• Could give them maybe one or two CX tips that you think will allow them to really connect with their customers, build better and stronger and deeper relationships. What would those two tips be for 2022?
• Could you share with our listeners, what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.
• Where can listeners find you online?
• Do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote, it kind of helps to get you back on track if for any reason you get derailed? Do you have one of those?

Highlights

What is Blockchain?

Me: So, we're having Jason back on our podcast. As I mentioned, he was here with us last year September talking about his book Unbreakable: A proven process for building unbreakable relationships with customers. And today he's here to share with us a little bit about his release that was released earlier this month. The title of the article was Wider Blockchain Adoption Will Impact Customer Experience. And so, my question to you Jason is for those persons that are listening to me are probably saying to themselves, what is Blockchain? what are you talking about? So, could you share with us a little bit about what Blockchain is and how that even can impact customer experience?

Jason stated that Blockchain can be many things, but at its core, it's the ability of information to be transferred either by the customer or by a product. So, information is tagged and carried along a pathway that can be picked up and shared, but it's also a very secure way of sharing information. And at its core, the value or the benefit for businesses is that it allows them to acquire a lot more information about their customers and more holistic information about the customer. And for the customer, the benefit is they can have a much better understanding of the product itself, where it was created and where it was manufactured and how it ended up in their hands.

S

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Matt Young is the CEO of UserVoice, the first (and we think best!) product feedback and research tool for software companies around the world. Matt started his professional career as a software developer, right when web browsers were released. He developed innovative solutions on the web well before SaaS and Product Management were the ubiquitous terms that they are today.

Over his career, he has pushed for better ways to build software. And through all the changes in development methodologies, he has put the customer at the centre of everything his teams have built. This is what attracted him to UserVoice - an opportunity to make sure that teams building complex software solutions have direct access to the intended users - to make sure that the problems any company or development team are solving are actually worth solving.

Questions

• Could you share a little bit about your journey with our listeners, in your own words?
• Could you tell us a little bit about UserVoice? To the average listener that's listening to this podcast, a little bit about the company, what does the company do? And what types of businesses do you primarily service?
• What about tips for improving feature request responses?
• Could you share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?
• Can you also share with us maybe one or two books that have had the biggest impact on you? It could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you've read recently that has really impacted you in a great way.
• If you could choose the best customer service or customer experience tip to give to our listeners who are business owners, what would be the most important tip that you would give them to ensure that their business is successful?
• Could you also share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.
• Where can they find you online?
• Do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge you'll tend to revert to this quote, it kind of helps to get you back on track if for whatever reason you got derailed or you got off track.

Highlights

Matt’s Journey

Matt shared that he had a pretty ordinary software development career starting off as an individual software developer, and then moving into management. The thing that he had experienced while doing all that was that he would notice that product teams would ask engineering teams, which are big and expensive and complicated to build things and didn't really have a good way to justify the reasoning behind that. He was really interested in hearing why customers thought what they were being asked to build was important, why it was an important problem to solve, why the solution they had in mind was a good one for them. And he just was really passionate about companies being connected to the users that they serve.

So, that's kind of what brought him to UserVoice. He started out as the VP of Engineering at UserVoice but over the years, they've spun out a couple of other products and other companies, so the original founder is now the CEO of a sister company of theirs, it's working on some parallel products, and UserVoice is his

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Dr. Anna Harrison is a top ranked Digital Technology Advisor, Product Expert and Author. Anna’s work has helped New Zealand's best exporting and emerging brands create strategic and measurable plans to accelerate growth in new markets. Supported by successes across Europe, Asia, and the USA, Anna's work will help you remove your reliance on luck in the future success of your brand.

Questions

• We always like to give guest the opportunity to kind of just share a little bit about their journey in their own words.
• Your book Digital Brand Romance, could you tell us a little bit about the book?
• Could you explain to our audience what customer expectations are versus what customer satisfaction is?
• Could you define for our listeners what a promise is?
• So, that dovetails us nicely into the core of your book is based on the ADORE Process. Could you take our listeners through what that process is and what are the milestones in the journey of that process?
• Could you also share with our listeners what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?
• Could you also share with us maybe one or two books that have had the biggest impact on you, it could be a book that you read recently, or even one that you read a very long time ago, but it still has had a great impact on you.
• What's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.
• Where can listeners find you online?
• Do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you’ll tend to revert to this quote, it kind of helps to get you back on track if for any reason you got derailed or you got off track?

Highlights

Anna’s Journey

Anna stated that we are in for a treat. So, probably the best way to describe her journey is that it is non-standard and very nonlinear. She’s lived on four continents and done a whole bunch of different things. And probably if you look back across the last sort of two decades of work, the only common thread amongst it all is that she’s done interesting things and she’s worked with great people, and that really is something that drives her and motivates her to seek out new challenges and look for different things. So, loosely speaking, she’s worked in product design and product development, started in IT and so back in technology, work a lot with customer experience, and the drivers that help people to make choices and help brands to sell more stuff to loyal customers.

What is Your Book Digital Brand Romance About?

Me: So, our podcast is all about Navigating the Customer Experience. As you can imagine, when your email came across my attention, and I saw that you wrote this book called Digital Brand Romance: How to Create Lasting Relationships in a Digital World, I said to myself, this sounds very interesting and then I read a little bit more and it really got me intrigued. And so, I'm sure just as how I was intrigued, our listeners will be just as intrigued about your book. So, could you tell us a little bit about the book?

Anna stated that Navigating the Customer Experience just to sort of jump out and big picture, it's her passion, it's what she thinks about at 3:00 am in the mornings. So, lots of mutual interest and overlap and she’s excited to share some of the things she’s learned in her life with our audience today.

So, Digital Brand Romance, it's the combin

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Eric Vermillion is the CEO of Helpshift, a San Francisco based company that develops mobile customer support software that helps companies provide better customer support in mobile apps. Before Helpshift, Eric was instrumental in advancing BlueCat to one of Canada's most notable software exits, and also helped grow revenue at NICE Systems to over $1 Billion. He has also held sales and leadership roles at PTC, Tecnomatix and Triad Systems Corporation. Eric holds a Bachelor’s degree in management from Purdue University.

Questions

• We like to give our guest an opportunity to do their own introduction in their own words, can you just tell us a little bit about how you got to where you are today?
• Can you tell us a little bit about what Helpshift does?
• Do you see mobile applications advancing even more in the whole development of customer experience on a global level? Or do you find people are looking for more opportunities where they can have more face-to-face interactions and less interaction with the digital or the technological side of things?
• Metaverse, there are a lot of people who still have a little bit of apprehension in relation to that whole emergence of that, what it represents, how to interface with it. What are your thoughts on that? Do you think it's something that will become the norm? How do you think people can adjust to it feeling more comfortable because it's so different and generally speaking, human beings just don't adjust to change very readily.
• Could you share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website, or app that you absolutely can't live without in your business?
• Could you also share with our audience, maybe one or two books that have had the biggest impact on you? It could be a book that you read recently, or even one that you read a long time ago, but it still has impacted you in a very great way.
• We have a lot of listeners who are business owners and managers, who feel they have great products and services, but they lack the constantly motivated human capital. If you were sitting across the table from that person, what's the one piece of advice that you would give them to have a successful business?
• What's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about - either something you're working on to develop yourself or your people.
• Where can listeners find you online?
• Do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote, it kind of helps to get you back on track if for any reason you got derailed or just kind of helps to get you back refocused.

Highlights

Eric’s Journey

Eric shared that he spent his entire career in the world of software, pretty good chunk of it on the sales end of things. He kind of got lucky coming out of Purdue University, when all his friends were taking jobs at places like John Deere and Caterpillar and Anderson Consulting, I found the Bay area software company to join and kind of fell in love with technology and software. So, he’s spent his career helping people use technology to create value. And he’s spent a big chunk of it in the world of customer service, he was at NICE for 8 years and got to be a part of things when kind of this whole omni channel trend happened. After he left NICE, he did a couple of other software plays in the world of identity management and IT security with blue cat, he found his way back and spent the last 3 years in Helpshift trying to really redef

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Ernie Harker is a creative branding mastermind. He recently published “Your Brand Sucks,” a book that reveals why most companies get branding wrong and reveals the step by step formula he has used to assist dozens of companies define a clear image and personality for their brands. One of his greatest successes was to help revitalize an old-western retail chain into a $3 billion high-energy adventure brand. He leads workshops, gives presentations, and offers an online masterclass to help organizations define and develop remarkable brands.

Self-diagnosed with Hyperactive Productivity Disorder, Ernie loves to draw, trail run, compete in triathlons, wake board, do yoga, lift weights, camp, mountain bike, watch movies, eat junk food, and spend time with his family and 7 brothers. Asked him what his real life allergies to exercise on the TV travel show he hosted.

Buckle up because his dynamic personality and passion for brand development will have you racing to build your brand. His friends call him Ernburn, so call him Ernburn!

Questions

• Could you share little bit about their journey and how you got to where you are today. Could you share that?
• Could you maybe share with us three important things you think our company needs to have in order to really have, at least gives off the impression of being a brand that is for their customer?
• Are there maybe two or three personality traits that you think an employee or a leader needs to have in an organization in order to really develop a brand that is highly associated in a positive way?
• Could you share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?
• Could you also share with us maybe one or two books that have had the biggest impact on you? It could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you read recently, but it has a great impact on you.
• We have a lot of listeners who are business owners and managers who feel sometimes that they have great products and services, but they lack the constantly motivated human capital. If you're sitting across the table from that person, what's the one piece of advice that you would give them to have a successful business?
• Could you share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? Either something that you're working on to develop yourself or your people.
• Where can listeners find you online?
• Do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote, it kind of helps to get you back on track or get you back focus if for any reason you get derailed.

Highlights

Ernie’s Journey

Ernie shared that like most of our guests, they always start on the path that never seems to be like, if I were to rewind my life; I never would have thought I would have ended up where I'm at. He wanted to be an illustrator or an animator when he was a kid. And so, he was an illustration, he drew all the time, and studied illustration at the university. And when he got out of university, he got a job for an Ad agency. And he was doing concept development and that's just pre visualization of either TV commercials or print ads, or online ads or whatever. He would sketch out what a creative director or an art director would have in mind and then they would show those drafts, those pieces of art to the client.

And what he learned is that he learned to become really good at visualizing language. He wasn't a writer and so he had to clearly communicate