By Tommy Thomas
The podcast currently has 145 episodes available.
[00:00:30] Deneé Barracato: Kelly Watts was a former assistant coach at several different institutions before she ended up at Hofstra. And she was a woman of color that was just so vibrant.
She loved sports. She loved people. She loved the Lord. And every time I was around her, I just felt this spirit of joy. And she was just always so fun to be around, and she put things in perspective for me at a very impressionable age in my life as a young adult, where she always reminded me to keep the Lord first.
Trials and tribulations are going to come, and adversity is going to come, but you need to stay focused and centered, and she really poured her optimism into me and I appreciated that. And then she was actually great at basketball. So, she taught me as a guard the skills that I needed to be successful on the next level.
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[00:01:19] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Deneé Barracato. She's the Deputy Director of Athletics for Operations and Capital Projects at Northwestern University. Her career path to Northwestern has taken her to leadership roles at York College, Queens College, and Adelphi University.
She did a stint in Indianapolis with NCAA as the Associate Director of Division I Women's Basketball, and she even did a stint at Madison Square Garden's Company as Director of Strategy, where she worked with the Knicks, the Rangers, and the New York Liberty teams to further advance the marketing and business objective of the Madison Square Garden business partners.
[00:02:00] Tommy Thomas: She took her undergraduate degree from Hofstra University, where she was a four-year basketball letter winner. As a student athlete at Hofstra, she led the nation in steals for women's Division I basketball and earned America East All Conference honors. Following graduation, she played professionally in the Women's Professional League in Puerto Rico for the Saints of St. Juan, as well as with the National Women's Basketball League as a member of the Atlanta Justice. In addition to her undergraduate degree from Hofstra, she earned a master's degree in exercise science and sports management from Adelphi.
She's married to Michael, and they have three children, Grace, MJ, and Mia.
[00:02:41] Tommy Thomas: Deneé, welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership.
[00:02:45] Deneé Barracato: Thank you for having me, Tommy. I'm humbled. It's a pleasure to be here with you all just to talk about sports and my journey thus far.
[00:02:54] Tommy Thomas: Thank you. My guests sometimes want to know where I find all these people.
Ty Brown has a podcast on leadership, and I listened to it. And I heard Deneé about maybe two months ago, three months ago. And I thought this is somebody I would love to have as a guest. You're so gracious to carve out some time for us in the midst of what I know is a busy prelude to your intercollegiate athletics this year.
[00:03:19] Tommy Thomas: But before we dive too deep into sports or your current role, take me back to your childhood and tell me what was it like growing up?
[00:03:29] Deneé Barracato: Oh, wow. Growing up, I had a very active childhood. I was a tomboy at heart. I loved activity. I loved sports. I wouldn't say competitively, but just out in the park, a city kid originally from the Bronx, and my parents are from the city as well.
First generation here in the United States, although Puerto Rico is a territory of the United States, but they were born there and moved here at a young age, and then raised us in New York city. And later we moved out to Hempstead, Long Island where I went undergrad near Hofstra. I was a very active kid, loved life, and loved sports.
And when I was in middle school, I was introduced to women's basketball or just basketball in general, from an organized standpoint. And I remember I just fell in love with it. I fell in love with the idea of playing something that was pretty cool at the time. And then I realized that I was actually decent at it.
[00:04:32] Deneé Barracato: And it was interesting because I have two sisters, two older sisters. I'm the youngest of three. And my father ended up coaching the middle school team, and we were all on it. And I remember my older sister, Damaris, she was actually pretty good. She played at a junior college.
And then my older sister, she just wanted nothing to do with it. She didn't like the physical interaction. And as I mentioned, I embraced it. My father encouraged me to continue to play, and the rest is history. I then transitioned to a public school and started getting engaged in summer basketball, AAU later in my high school career and ended up at Hofstra university.
[00:05:17] Deneé Barracato: So, I would say my family, certainly my parents both being educators, but both being Hispanics growing up in the city, tried to instill in us work ethic, education, and just avenues to further my educational career. And basketball was one of those endeavors that helped me do that.
And so now in my career, I can say that I will be forever indebted to basketball, but also this industry for giving me so much. And so that's why I do what I do to give back to potential student athletes and young adults that one day want to take advantage of that opportunity to do something very similar to myself.
Yeah, so that's my childhood in a nutshell but one that I'm very proud of.
[00:06:01] Tommy Thomas: So, when you were in high school, what kind of career aspirations did a young 15-year-old have?
[00:06:08] Deneé Barracato: I have to be honest with you. I was so enamored with the sport of basketball. I was so tunnel visioned. I was determined to play Division I Women's Basketball.
I didn't even know what that meant at the time. I just wanted to play at the highest level, wherever it was. And I worked tirelessly to ensure that happened, whether that was working out two days on my own as a 15, 16-year-old doing whatever I had to do, because I really came on to the AAU summer league basketball scene pretty late.
[00:06:39] Deneé Barracato: My parents really didn't know the first thing about college scholarships and what sports can actually bring to an aspiring, young individual like me wanting to play on the next level. I don't know that they fully understood that there could be possibilities to getting a full scholarship that would allow me to be educated at no cost.
And so once my parents learned that, then we fast forward through everything. So, my main focus was maintaining my grades so that way I can then play Division I Women’s Basketball. And then from there, obviously, the sky's the limit with potentially playing overseas.
[00:07:16] Deneé Barracato: At the time when I first started, I think it was my freshman year. I don't know that the WNBA was even a thing. I don't know that it became a thing until my senior year. Back when I was 15, 16, that was my focus and I'm a bit taken back because if that is my daughter's focus at 15, 16, then I think we're going to have a different conversation.
But certainly, it was one that I was really enamored with. And I had to be honest with you, even my relationship with the Lord probably wasn't first and foremost, the way it probably should have been back then. And it's later in life that I realized that there's more to life than just basketball, sports, and my own personal ambitions.
And we could talk about that a little bit more, but that was what was going through my mind back then.
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[00:08:00] Tommy Thomas: What is something that people are usually surprised to learn about you?
[00:08:06] Deneé Barracato: Oh, that I actually have three children. Every time I share with them that I'm married with three children and I'm closer to 50 than I am to 40 they really get surprised.
And I guess that's a compliment in a lot of ways, but one that hopefully I balance really well. At work, I work really hard and I'm hoping that my children will see that work ethic in me, but at the same time sometimes that comes back to impact the amount of time that I do spend at home.
[00:08:33] Deneé Barracato: Because they see me so often, whether it's at work or at conferences which is where you heard Ty Brown's podcast, because I was at the NACDA conference and convention. Sometimes they don't realize that I actually have a family at home that's waiting for me, that depends on me.
Obviously along with my husband, but yeah, I think that's something that they're surprised about. And even then, I even played professionally at the next level beyond just Hofstra University. And that was a wonderful experience too. And I think the last thing that might surprise them that I probably don't talk about as often as I should is my father is a pastor.
And so, I was raised in the Word and although I didn't always walk in faith, it was instilled in me and that verse that talks about raising your children in the ways of the Lord and they shall not depart and those teachings. I think my life is evidence of that. And I'm hoping that I can certainly do the same with my children.
[00:09:25] Tommy Thomas: Part of this sub theme I've got going here is the coaches in my life. And I've interviewed six or seven people like you who played intercollegiate sports. And we talked about things they learn from sports and things they learn from the coaches in their lives.
So, thinking back, which coach do you think got the most out of you?
[00:09:46] Deneé Barracato: Yeah, I've often talked about her. Her name is Kelly Watts, and she was a former assistant coach at several different institutions, Temple, I think she was at Rutgers for a little bit before she ended up at Hofstra. And she was just a woman of color that was just so vibrant.
She loves sports. She loved people. She loved the Lord. And every time I was around her, I just felt this spirit of joy. And she was just always so fun to be around, and she put things in perspective for me at a very impressionable age in my life as a young adult, where she always reminded me to keep the Lord first.
Trials and tribulations are going to come, and adversity is going to come, but you need to stay focused and centered, and she really poured her optimism into me, and I appreciated that. And so, she was one. And then she was actually great at basketball. So, she taught me as a guard the skills that I needed to be successful on the next level.
[00:10:44] Deneé Barracato: And we still stay in touch to this day. I've been around her parents, or her mom and her sister. And she's always someone that I admire and that I often seek advice from, and, again, she was probably the most impactful person that was from a women's basketball perspective, but also Jay Wright, who was the men's basketball coach. She's a hall of fame coach, many people remember him from his days at Villanova and now CBS, but he was actually the head men's basketball coach at Hofstra university, my entire four-year career there. And we've just stayed in touch since then. He's been a mentor as well.
[00:11:21] Deneé Barracato: Someone that I can pick up the phone and call. And we talk about different things going on in the industry right now. And I often pick his brain, but also brag about him and, back when I was at Hofstra on my off days, when the men's basketball team was traveling and we were home, I would help babysit his children.
And I knew Patty, his wife, and now his children are grown. They're adults and so very successful, but he's someone else that I admired just the way he carried himself, how he invoked a championship mindset with his players and how he carried himself was just top notch and bar.
[00:11:56] Tommy Thomas: Tell me about the best athletic team you were ever on and what made it the best athletic team.
[00:12:05] Deneé Barracato: That's a good question. I would say my experience with the National Women's Basketball League. I was drafted in the fifth round and that was a league that started when the ABL folded. And so, the WMU was there. The ABL had just folded. That would be the CBA to the NBA. And they started this league because there were certain WNBA players that maybe didn’t want to go back overseas during their off season, but still wanted to maintain their conditioning and just play competitively.
So, they started this league, and I got drafted in the fifth round to the Atlanta Justice team. And I moved over there to play for a season and I just met incredible athletes, incredible humans: friends that I have to this day, friends that helped me through my wedding and playing at that top level, playing with some of the best players in the country.
And Rebecca Lobo, the Miller twins. And I think maybe Tina Thompson also played in that league. There were just so many that I admired as a basketball player leading up. And obviously now they’re household names, when we talk about women's basketball. I really enjoyed my time playing at that level and playing here in the States, in Atlanta.
And so, I would say that would be my most impactful team.
[00:13:25] Tommy Thomas: So how did basketball change for you between high school, college and the pros? What were the transitions?
[00:13:37] Deneé Barracato: I think for me, it was maturity. When I was younger, I was still tunnel visioned, very selfish and my thought process, having this ambition to play and do well for me.
That I forgot the team component. I forgot the humanity component. I forgot, that, hey, I know as a woman of color, I have to fight to really get the positioning that I need, really prove myself beyond many other individuals that were in front of me. Through maturity and through grace and patience, learning how to be a great teammate was something that I saw grow in me, and I can say that now as an adult, as a mother raising my children from high school to then college and then collegiate or professional sports just understanding that being a great teammate should be your first focus.
[00:14:31] Deneé Barracato: Because if you can support your teammate, if you can have a like mindset, if you can be supportive of your coaches if you can understand what it is to go through adversity with your team, but go through positive moments with your team, like winning and doing it together as a collective unit, you're going to go that much further than if you're doing it on your own. And, I think over the years, I learned that it is so critical in any environment, not only playing on a sports team, but also in the office environment or in society or in your home, right? Instilling those things into your family members and your teachers, and even as a spouse.
Knowing that we have to be one unit, and we have to be a team. And sometimes that takes compromise and all those things. And so, over the years, I think that I learned that through tough experiences and teachable moments that helped me be a better person, teammate, and partner to all those that are in my life.
[00:15:31] Tommy Thomas: You referenced the lady that was such a strong influence in your college career, at what point did you realize that she might be teaching you something other than basketball?
[00:15:42] Deneé Barracato: Oh, that's a good question. She had such an infectious personality that it is a good question because you can see the light and the energy in her, but it wasn't until one day we were talking about her time in Long Island.
At some point she lived in Long Island and we were just talking and I think I may have shared with her that I had family out in some part of Suffolk County in Long Island and she mentioned to me that the church she was going to was Upper Room and she really loved that part of Long Island and that kind of led me into a different conversation with her about that part of her life.
[00:16:19] Deneé Barracato: And then seeing how she was able to marry the two. Her love for basketball and her love for the Lord. And there was nothing to be ashamed about, but there was a balance that you can have with both and do it so very well. And to see her do it at such a high level really intrigued me and really brought me back to things that I was taught and instilled as a young little girl with my parents.
I think it happened organically through just conversation as any coach and player should have that dialogue, not just transactional on the basketball court, but really developing that relationship off the court. And I think through that interaction, we just started talking about life and it just made it all the more special to me in terms of that relationship.
[00:17:08] Tommy Thomas: No matter how hard and dedicated you are to something; failure is always an option. So, what did you learn from team sports about failure that you brought into your career?
[00:17:20] Deneé Barracato: Oh, wow. I learned to again, be patient and know that growth is critical in life.
Some of the student athletes that I speak to now are just curious or, if I have a moment to spend with them, they learn that as a senior, I actually ended up waiting for four games because I was going through, now we talk about mental health and that being such a critical component to student athletes.
[00:17:48] Deneé Barracato: And back then we didn't know what that was. We were thinking maybe that was depression or whatever the case may be. But my senior year, coming off of a very successful junior year, I ended up getting injured in my junior year and ended up having surgery that delayed my recovery leading into my senior year, which was for me supposed to be the pinnacle because that's when the WNBA was coming out and, to be quite honest with you, was I good enough to be in the WNBA?
I don't know, it's still a college girl's dream to play on the next level. And some nuances happened within that year because of my surgery, and I didn't end up starting and that kind of impacted my psyche going into that season. And I just, for whatever reason, just didn't recover.
[00:18:32] Deneé Barracato: And I couldn't get over the fact that I wasn't starting, and I wasn't going to be, in my mind, as impactful. And I couldn't just sit back and say, you know what, some of my other teammates were sitting behind me for three years when I was starting. And now it's my opportunity to sit behind them and cheer them on and encourage them and give them an opportunity to play.
And so throughout that time just learning how to overcome adversity, and I mentioned before, just maturing through that process, being a great teammate, thinking of others before thinking of myself and understanding that you can still be successful. Perhaps not in the way that you envisioned, but you can still find a way back while still being supportive of teammates, while still being supportive of those around you, and improving yourself and getting back to what you believe you can actually accomplish.
[00:19:28] Deneé Barracato: And so, for me, that maturity in that moment of time led me to then come back to the team, apologize and really find my way back to a team and a sport that had given me so much. And was I really going to give all that up because of my own selfish thoughts? And maybe there was some validity at that time in my life, but I think now I would have approached it very differently and taken the time to take a step back and be reflective and be a great teammate and really find ways to fill that void with support, with encouragement, with cheering, and all the things that we teach our young adults now to do.
And so I use that story to share with some of our student athletes when they're in a slump or when their things aren't going their way, just to share with them that there is light at the end of the tunnel, but there's also a component of patience and of taking a step back and looking at the situation and seeing what part of that situation is in your control and how could make the best of a tough situation.
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[00:20:38] Tommy Thomas: So, what did you learn about trust and communication from team sports?
[00:20:45] Deneé Barracato: Trust and communication in team sports is so critical. We talk about this kind of team environment, team impact, and nothing that happens with a group of people is successful unless you have great communication, unless you have a great relationship, unless there's authenticity, intentionality, and all that you put into a relationship.
Just understanding the different dynamics of individuals that make up a team or a group is really important. Understanding that different people bring different attributes, bring different skills, bring different gifts that would help propel a team to success. And just knowing that it all starts with intentionality, communication, and embracing people's differences.
[00:21:29] Deneé Barracato: And so those things are really critical to the team environment that I've again grown to understand over my period of time as a young adult, but even into the professional realm as an administrator is learning that people have so many different attributes. People have so many different leadership qualities, but it's embracing all those and then in that group setting, just encouraging people to talk about those different things through communication.
And putting those things into action for success as a group of individuals may be different. So that way there's a common goal and then, that can hopefully blossom into something beautiful. And in our line of business, that is championships. Just embracing the group setting, knowing that people have different gifts and talents that they can bring to a group.
And then, really emphasizing the communication and the embracing of those different skills for success.
[00:22:28] Tommy Thomas: Things get tough in someone's career. You get hurt. You don't always win. What motivated you to keep pushing yourself even when things weren't as good as you might have wanted them to be?
[00:22:40] Deneé Barracato: I never want to be a quitter, right? Though sometimes things didn't go your way, I was always taught to believe the Lord calls us to be our best selves. And he equips you with the things that you would need to overcome adversity.
And I know I didn't always understand that. But I just have this innate thing in me where I always just want to work really hard. I always want to represent my family to the highest extent. I always saw my mother and father working really hard and they provided me with an example of work ethic and being good and great, despite their circumstances.
And I always wanted to ensure that I was doing the same thing and that I was making them proud. I was really pushing myself to be the best version of myself, despite my circumstances. Now, did I always follow through on that? No, I think I'm human and I've grown through that.
[00:23:37] Deneé Barracato: But I always wanted to ensure that I was making my family proud that I was really taking advantage of all the things that God gave me and provided me and blessed me with. And so, I never wanted to squander that, although there were many times as they mentioned, even my senior year, but I came back and I had this realization that no Deneé, you cannot quit.
You have to move forward and overcome the adversity and really tune out the noise. And I would certainly say, my parents, all the things that they instilled in me as a young girl, and then just my personal endeavor to be my best self and the best version of myself was really important to me.
[00:24:20] Tommy Thomas: So as a person of faith, how do you deal with competition in athletics?
[00:24:26] Deneé Barracato: One, I don't think there's anything wrong with competition. You just can't take it to the next level, right? You have to be gracious. And I have to say I wasn't always gracious on the basketball court. I was a tenacious competitor and sometimes I would have to curtail my competitiveness so that way, people could see the light through me.
And, as I mentioned before, I grew into that. And even now I play a mean game of monopoly. I am competitive with my kiddos and my kiddos are competitive with me. But it's all in good fun. I think just coming away with it, knowing that you can be competitive, you can have aspirations to win and there's nothing wrong with that.
[00:25:11] Deneé Barracato: As the Lord calls us to be great and he expects that from us. And so just embracing that while also loving your neighbor, while also being gracious, while also having a good attitude and being a good sportsman and really saving some of the things that may not be appropriate in that moment.
Allowing the Lord to watch that under the blood, Tommy, we just allow the Lord to take the wheel and go. But certainly, throughout my time in undergrad and just through my life just asking the Lord to guide me and direct me and give me grace when I'm not a reflection of Him, but also reminding myself that it's really important that when people see me, whether it's in a competitive environment or a non-competitive environment, that they see the Lord through me.
[00:25:59] Sometimes I fall short of that, but I always ask the Lord for guidance and for favor. And he gives that to me often. And hopefully throughout my life and my career, people have seen that through me. And if they haven't, that means I have more work to do.
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[00:26:14] Tommy Thomas: I interviewed Dr. Linda Livingstone, the President at Baylor, and she had played ball at Oklahoma State, and she said that the game of women's basketball has just changed so much since she was a student athlete.
[00:26:32] Tommy Thomas: How have you seen it change at the Division I level?
[00:26:36] Deneé Barracato: I would agree with her, and I have met her. She's phenomenal. We visited there a couple of years ago not once but twice and she was such a gracious host. I would say, yes, the game of women's basketball has grown to success.
We saw that this past year with the women's final four and the viewership and broadcast ratings and all the personalities are certainly Caitlin Clark, Angel Reese and all those that continue to play and will be excited about women's basketball on the collegiate level again, as we're excited about the WNBA happening right now.
And I think that the skill level has certainly enhanced since I was playing. The things that these women are doing are incredible, logo threes and the passes and the work ethic and the fitness and the dedication that they put into it is just at a different level. And I think that's attributed to just administrators and the industry putting more into and supporting women’s sports and women’s athletics.
[00:27:31] Deneé Barracato: And showing people that know that they're great too. And they deserve to have a platform so people can see how wonderful and how great they are. Certainly, a lot of the banter that you see, I think, I believe is synonymous with just sports in general.
But it's how you carry yourself and, how you correct, having those teachable moments on the court, I think we've all had those moments where you're just like, man, I could have probably handled that better. And I think sometimes you may see that on the basketball court.
[00:28:08] Deneé Barracato: But I would say that the level of talent has enhanced because the focus and the dedication, and the resources have really been poured into the game of women's basketball in a very unique way. And so we've seen that be evident and what has happened over the last five years. And I've seen it more intimately because I serve on the Division I National Women’s Basketball Committee, and we started back in San Antonio during kind of COVID days.
And now to see it progress the way it has over the last four years. Now I'm going into my fifth and final year on the committee and just seeing the explosion on TV, the interest from so many different viewers. And we're talking about the demographics of viewers are just from young children to older men and women that are just so interested in what's happening with women's basketball. It has just been incredible to see.
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[00:29:00] Tommy Thomas: Next week we'll continue this conversation with Deneé Barracato. She shares her journey from professional basketball to higher education administration. She reflects on the importance of team dynamics and the need for authenticity and leadership.
Deneé also discusses how she balances her leadership role with family life, emphasizing the importance of flexibility and patience and managing multiple responsibilities. Her insights offer valuable lessons on resilience, teamwork, and leading through change, making this episode a must listen for anyone in or aspiring to leadership roles.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search - What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Deneé Barracato Bio Barracato named to NCAA Women’s Basketball Committee
Women of Live 2023 – Deneé Barracato
Connect
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Follow Deneé on LinkedIn
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[00:00:00] Dianne Ogle: I love creativity. It's one of my favorite things. So that's why I like questions, because even if I think I know the answer, if I ask the question, it's just beautiful to hear what inspires somebody or what was bubbling in them or how they see it, quite frankly. It isn't the way I always see things or think it might play out. So, you give people a door for their own strengths, their own creativity, to participate and join in. And most of the time it's so much better than when we could do it alone.
[00:00:32] Tommy Thomas: Today, we're continuing the discussion we began last week with Dianne Ogle. In this episode, Dianne shares her extensive leadership journey focusing on the importance of authenticity, community and resilience. She discusses the danger of pride and leadership and emphasizes the need for leaders to rely on their teams and build strong, supportive networks. Dianne also reflects on the power of prayer and how it has shaped her leadership approach, particularly in empowering women leaders. Her insights offer valuable lessons for anyone looking to navigate the complexities of leadership with integrity and faith. This episode is a rich resource for leaders at any stage of their career. Let's pick up where we left off last week.
[00:01:25] Tommy Thomas: I'm sure you've observed this in both men and women, but give me your thoughts on the dangerous traits that can derail a leader's career.
[00:01:35] Dianne Ogle: Pride, absolute pride. And thinking that you can do it alone. And you don't need anybody else, because what got you here won't get you there, as one of the books says that I use a lot. Because we need each other. We were built for community, and we need each other. And as soon as we think that we have arrived in that corner office, we don't grow.
We don't desire. We don't let people in to speak truth to us and have iron sharpens. Iron is when we start digressing, and regressing, we've all seen it. We've all known people. They think they're all there. Even Christians. We're flesh, we're sinful, and we start moving backwards. So that's probably the greatest.
[00:02:25] Tommy Thomas: I know, all this is broached in a blanket of confidentiality, and I won't ask you to go there, but does it take the women a while to get used to sharing everything and trusting that their cohorts, that's not what you call it, but their peer, not anymore.
[00:02:43] Dianne Ogle: I think originally, initially the first group that was called into it, but they were in need of a group like this that I think they were willing. And when they saw that I was doing a confidentiality statement that they all signed and that it was going to be a safe place. Then they started testing it.
Now our foundation is so strong that women will either understand what we've got and be ready to jump in. As soon as they come and join I take them through an onboarding program, and I also have them start meeting with the women one on one, but they immediately come to a meeting after they've joined, and they start seeing how honest, authentic, just real. And the prayer requests that we share, we've really grown in the power of prayer together. And that is authentic because they're sharing every aspect of their lives, not just their work.
[00:03:42] Tommy Thomas: So how do they work together from the four pillars, you're bringing people from the nonprofit sector. You've got executive women from Fortune 500 companies.
[00:03:53] Dianne Ogle: Now Tommy, the cool thing is we call it repurpose. We don't call it retirement. And some of them, like we had one who was the chief diversity officer at Coca Cola. And she'd been with Coke for 20 years and in her career and near the end of her career, she started being tapped for a paid board of director role.
So, she's now repurposed and now she's a board director and still highly engaged with us in linking arms. We have another one who repurposed and now she's helping one of our other members who is the president of the National Day of Prayer, helping her with grant writing and supporting ministry of the National Day of Prayer.
[00:04:34] Dianne Ogle: It is beautiful.
[00:04:36] Dianne Ogle: We believe we don't compete. We complete. And so there are times where some will work together or we will have an opportunity to like this next National Day of Prayer in May. Kathy Brent sells the President, and she's opened the invitation for all of us to come to the Capitol and to all the festivities to help pray over the nation and all the pillars that involve.
[00:05:03] So yes, we are highly diverse, Tommy, both in skin color and political views and career pathing and titles and positions. The beauty is in the foundation we love Jesus. And yes, we've worked through the weathers.
[00:05:21] Dianne Ogle: I would say our women are even diverse in age. We've got some in their late thirties to the mid to late sixties. And all my nonprofit or ministry women, that's what shocked me because initially when I saw that pillar of nonprofit, I'm thinking, oh, it'd be like an exec with the Red Cross.
And I just assumed it would be those kinds of women coming towards us. And it has been. There have been high level executive women in ministry work. So that's been beautiful. Andrea, who you had on your show before, she was my first one in that category. And I went to her after four months with us.
[00:06:01] Dianne Ogle: And I said, I consider her Sage. She is the most amazing woman. I said, Andrea, are we meeting your needs? That was just important for me. And she goes, she's so thoughtful in the way she answers. She goes I come from a big family. I have a big donor base. I've been well supported at Cru since I became a Christian in college.
And she goes, but this is so beautiful for me to have a safe place with true peers in other sectors and see the commonality or the similar pain or listen to maybe a different perspective outside of ministry that I can glean from, or I could speak into. And I'm like, okay, Lord, here we go. That's it.
[00:06:46] Tommy Thomas: That was going to be a question, and, yeah, I would probably have assumed that, but you say that, regardless of what sector you're in, there probably arises a pattern of issues that you're going to face regardless if you're a private sector or government service or public service, and so y'all are able to work with the whole person.
[00:07:10] Dianne Ogle: Absolutely. In and out of season. We've lost a member to death, which was really hard on the group, and it was very sudden. We have walked through lots of personal pain together. And there are groups out there for just professionals, but we work on emotional, spiritual, financial, relational issues. Some of our women are single, some are divorced, some are married, some have children, some do not.
And so, you can imagine we all step into this place, but to see the love and the respect and the camaraderie, it always brings tears to my eyes. Just to go, Lord, these are your girls. You've risen us up for such a time as this and we are better together and we need to encourage one another as long as it's called today like scripture says, because it's tough out there. And we need each other.
[00:08:10] Dianne Ogle: I tell my coaching clients. Part of my core purpose is to be the Hur, like in Exodus 17. I’m the Hur of Moses and we need people to come by our side to speak into, to give us rest, to help raise our hands. Because these battles that we're in spiritually, professionally, personally, they're weary. It's tough. So, we all need each other.
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[00:08:39] Tommy Thomas: If you're writing a book on the burdens of leadership that only the CEO can bear, what are some of the topics you would address?
[00:08:51] Dianne Ogle: This loneliness is a big one that I hear consistently. Whether I'm talking to a brand new high level woman or talking to one of our Arete’ women, even though they're in the group, they will remember how lonely it can be and misunderstood because our churches a lot of times don't understand us or get our giftedness.
A lot of times the other peers, like if they're in childbearing age and they're going to the school, a lot of those mothers don't get them. So, it's hard for them to have community. And then when you're at that senior level, as a CEO, as a board director, just the level of confidentiality and all that you have to take in and feel responsible for is unbelievable pressure.
[00:09:41] Dianne Ogle: And so, where do they have their safe place, their place, just to be them authentically, have a place, a table, they could just lay an issue out like an advisor we call, like our own personal advisory council. Here's my issue, help me with this. Or let me just speak it through so I can hear my own voice talking about it in a safe place where it's not gonna go to the media, it's not gonna go to my board directors.
It's just something I need to wrestle through to make sure that I've got the wisdom, discernment, knowledge, and understanding for this role. Each and every day I've been called to it.
[00:10:24] Tommy Thomas: You mentioned early on, you came out of an athletic family and have done the statistics and all that. So, you'll appreciate a couple of these athletic kind of questions.
[00:10:33] Tommy Thomas: David Chadwick, a pastor in Charlotte has written a book on Dean Smith’s life: It's How You Play the Game. The 12 Leadership Principles of Dean Smith.
[00:10:42] Tommy Thomas: And he says the concept of team may be Coach Smith's greatest contribution to basketball leadership and society. Your thoughts on that.
[00:10:53] Dianne Ogle: Amen, brother. Amen. Like I said earlier, we are not called alone, and we need our teams, both in our organizations and outside of that, because that's when … I tell people I have one brain, like I just have one. And so I gather even my women say, okay, let's talk about our content.
Let's talk about our annual retreat. And even though I might come to the table with my own ideas, I want to have an open heart and ask questions. I feel really strong about the power of questions to gain others’ ideas and inspiration, and God uses us all so uniquely with the way he wired us with our personalities and our strengths and the way our stories have unfolded.
[00:11:38] Dianne Ogle: We do a lot of assessments in Arete too, over the years, not all it wants to beat us up, but so that we can not only know ourselves better, but the people that we work with in our different teams. And we have deeper understanding and appreciation, and we know who to tap for what assignment.
[00:11:56] Tommy Thomas: Here's a quote from Mother Teresa and I like to contextualize this. In the context of Arete’, I'm not called to be successful, but to be faithful. And so is there a tension there between the context in which the women you're working with that’s their existence.
[00:12:18] Dianne Ogle: And a lot of my women, as you can imagine, are high achievers. They're highly responsible. When you do these assessments on Strength Finders, they're big-time learners.
They're always insatiable to continue to grow and learn. And there is this tension, from the world's expectations and definitions of success and what God sees as success. And sometimes that's not the same. And are you okay with that? In different seasons, sometimes you're more front facing and other times he might have you in a prayer closet.
[00:12:51] Dianne Ogle: Or going through a tougher season to sharpen you and to get the dross off of us so that he can use us again. Yeah, that's just really important.
[00:13:03] Tommy Thomas: Here's one from General George Patton. Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity.
[00:13:13] Dianne Ogle: Yes, I love creativity. It's one of my favorite things. So that's why I like questions, because even if I think I know the answer, if I ask the question, it's just beautiful to hear what inspires somebody or what was bubbling in them or how they see it, quite frankly. It isn't the way I always see things or think it might play out.
So, you give people a door for their own strengths, their own creativity to participate and join in. And most of the time it's so much better than when we could do it alone or to your point, overreach and over lead and overmanage, then it's all about me, versus it's about us and how we're perfect, how we're navigating and pressing forward.
[00:14:01] Tommy Thomas: Here's another one. The best bosses aren't usually those who boost the bottom line as much as it is those who make you a better person and better at your job.
[00:14:13] Dianne Ogle: And that's called development, leadership development, and the organizations that get the value, and that's what my husband does. That's his sweet spot with large organizations.
[00:14:26] Dianne Ogle: And the organizations who believe that, whether it's coaching like what I do, whether it's the big-time strategies of leadership development, if we miss or you start pulling those budget dollars back from really pouring into your people, it will negatively impact your bottom line when you're too focused on the money and not the people.
[00:14:47] Dianne Ogle: And then you lose your legacy. When we're focused on the people and where they're going and have a true sense of wanting to see them succeed and learn and grow and step into their authentic, strong self and grow every stage and step of the way. That's part of our legacy, isn't it?
[00:15:10] Tommy Thomas: We talked about creativity and innovation a few minutes ago. Here's another quote. If you never color outside the lines, the picture will never change.
[00:15:21] Dianne Ogle: And then it gets dull and boring and antiquated. It's then we're no earthly good, and we serve a creative God Elohim who all we have to do is step outside and see the ocean, like where you live or the beautiful flowers that my husband's planted in the trees that I live around here in Georgia.
And we see his beauty in and out of season. So, creativity and innovation is like water to the soul. It should be that fresh flowing spring for any individual and organization to continue to thrive and strive for each season.
[00:16:05] Tommy Thomas: Here's another one from Coach Smith. What do you do with the mistake? Recognize it, learn from it, admit it, forget it.
[00:16:14] Dianne Ogle: Confess it. Yeah. You got to confess it and go, Lord, help me. If I have a blind spot, am I not seeing this? Did I know it? Is there sin here? Do I need to apologize to somebody or the team or the organization? Learn from it. Have a humble heart. There's nothing more beautiful about a leader who has a cloak of humility that can admit and model when they've made a mistake.
And then how are they learning from it? Doesn't mean we have to be perfect. And that's the air that so many leaders believe, is that, oh, I'm in this position, so, I've got to be perfect. No, we should all be learning. And part of what we learn is to model when we have failed or made a mistake and that it's not the end of the world.
[00:17:06] Dianne Ogle: We'll pick ourselves back up. Hopefully, the consequences aren't too great, and we can keep navigating forward and we can shift and learn from it quite frankly, and model it to others to learn from.
[00:17:19] Tommy Thomas: No matter what job you have in life, your success will be determined 5 percent by your academic credentials, 15 percent by your professional experience and 80 percent by your communication skills.
[00:17:34] Dianne Ogle: Well, communication is critical, isn't it? Whether it's in writing, whether it's oral, whether it's your prayers to the Lord, having that grounded and rooted time where you have the vertical in line so that you can do the horizontal for all that he has called you to do. Not what your talents tend to want to take us up, take over.
No, he gave us our threading and our talents and our strengths, but we have to align it to his pace, his cadence, his work and his will every step of the way.
[00:18:12] Tommy Thomas: Peter Drucker, the most important thing in communication is to hear what isn't being said.
[00:18:19] Dianne Ogle: And that's called discernment, leaning in. I think if leaders talk too much, they really miss out on pressing in and seeing and hearing using those languages in hearing beyond what is physically said or heard. And sometimes then a strong question can elevate and illuminate something brand new. Or a way to go in and comfort somebody or encourage them or help them out of an area where they might be stuck.
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[00:18:56] Tommy Thomas: Let's go back to staff leadership for a minute before we bring this to a close.
[00:18:59] Tommy Thomas: What would go into a decision you might make to give somebody a second chance who had of course, I guess the degree of egregiousness would factor into that, but we all would like to have a second chance.
[00:19:11] Dianne Ogle: Absolutely. And God's a giver of second chances every day, right? None of us are perfect.
We've all sinned and fallen short of his glory. So why wouldn't we model that as Christ followers and Christ leaders? If we're truly being cloaked with his spirit and his power through us, we should be modeling second chances. Now, does that mean we're fools? No, sometimes we have to do the hard thing and fire people.
[00:19:38] Dianne Ogle: Nobody likes doing it that I've ever met, but sometimes it might be in the best interest of the institutional organization that you are entrusted with. Sometimes God's not done writing their story either. And it may be the best thing so that he can continue to do his work in and through them apart from the organization.
But yes, he's always in the business of second chances. Thank you, Lord.
[00:20:06] Tommy Thomas: If you were creating a dashboard to get at the health of a nonprofit organization, what would some of your dials measure?
[00:20:15] Dianne Ogle: Just the health of your people and where are your priorities? What's that vision, mission, values that hopefully you've aligned with what the Lord wants you to do in that nonprofit and having the metrics.
So many times, I find nonprofits not wanting to have measurements and metrics. I don't really understand that because it's just in the spirit of excellence. It's not to shame you or to say you're a failure. But if we don't know where we're going, how are we going to know we ever got there? And so just having those benchmarks on a dashboard and in a visual way, which they make so beautifully these days, it can use it to help us to renavigate, to encourage, to inspire, to help make sure maybe we need to hire somebody we don't have on our team that needs different skill sets to contribute to where we're going.
[00:21:11] Tommy Thomas: If you were a judge on a non-profit version of Shark Tank where nonprofits were coming to you for early-stage investment, what questions would you need to have solid answers for before you would open your checkbook?
[00:21:26] Dianne Ogle: I'd want to know their viewpoint and their philosophy on leadership right from the beginning.
[00:21:33] Dianne Ogle: And you hear that on Shark Tank, it seems like they get invested if they believe that person has the passion and that they will lead well through every stage of those businesses. Same thing with non-profits. You can say you can have all these ideas, and a lot of people start opening for nonprofits because they are visionaries.
[00:21:52] Dianne Ogle: They might have a vision. They may not be great executors. So, can I hear from that senior leader that they would have the wisdom to know that they need to put a team into place? To be able to get that momentum going. The name of our business is business momentum group but getting that ministry momentum going is to make sure that you've got the people, you've got the willingness to get the people and resources and talent in place.
[00:22:18] Tommy Thomas: Let's bring this to a close. I have some lightning round questions. Some of them sometimes don't seem to lend themselves to lightning round answers , but I'll let you do that. What's one small act of kindness that you were once shown that you'll never forget?
[00:22:37] Dianne Ogle: I'm a cook and I have a gift of hospitality, but when I was having the boys, people brought me a meal or hosted me in their home, which doesn't happen a lot these days. That's just very sweet to me because I'm usually the one going, oh, I’ll bring it. Dianne, have you in her home? And I love doing that, but it's really nice when it's done for you.
[00:23:03] Tommy Thomas: What's the best piece of advice anyone's ever given you?
[00:23:09] Dianne Ogle: To stay authentic and to stay in the game so that God can use me all my days.
[00:23:18] Tommy Thomas: If you could go back in life or go back in time and tell a younger version of yourself one thing, what would you tell her?
[00:23:26] Dianne Ogle: Hold on loosely. It's going to be a ride through the ups and downs and that you will weather through it with God by your side. He never leaves us. He never forsakes us. This great pain that you might think you're going through now is for greater good later. So stay encouraged, my daughter.
[00:23:50] Tommy Thomas: What do you understand about your life today that you didn't understand a year ago?
[00:23:56] Tommy Thomas: A year ago, or five years ago?
[00:23:59] Dianne Ogle: That he continues to amaze me with what he raises me up to do. I had the joy of praying at the National Day of Prayer. They asked me to pray over the sphere of business. And I said, are you sure? Because I pray privately. So I had never been asked to pray publicly in that kind of context.
And I knew how important our words are, talking about communication earlier, but if I'm going to speak, I'm like, Lord, then you need to write that prayer because it needs to not be Dianne at all. But just the surprise of what he taps us to do in different seasons is just beyond what we could ask or imagine.
[00:24:44] Tommy Thomas: If you could get a do over in life, what would it be?
[00:24:50] Dianne Ogle: I don't think anything because I think he uses it all. I just think, whether he's moved us, whether we've had hurts, he uses pain to make us greater. And makes us deeper in his rootedness of our lives. I used to have this, I had this vision one time and I had a friend say, if you had it to do over, would you just get rid of that pain?
I'm like, no, because it's a gift no one can take from me. It's part of my threading and it makes me who I am today. If we let him use it. So there is such a gift of pain.
[00:25:28] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes at our website: www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast.
If there are topics you'd like for me to explore, my email address is [email protected]. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search - What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Areté - Executive Women of Influence
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[00:01:07] Dianne Ogle: I had my first child in Texas and I was working for a corporation running their marketing department. And I had to put my oldest son in with a lady who had a small group of children in her home.
And every day I'd go get him. I would see him in a swing. And I told my husband, I cannot do this. I feel like I couldn’t run this marketing department yet. I want to have more of an impact on my own son. And so, my boss said, great.
She said go start your own business, figure out what that looks like. And I'll be your first client. And I thought, oh my goodness, how am I going to do this?
[00:01:47] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Dianne Ogle. Dianne began her career in sales and marketing before making a name for herself as a leader who could grow organizations and identify trouble spots and bottlenecks that tended to enter an organization's growth and effectiveness. As a prominent figure in the Executive Women of Influence Network, Diana has dedicated her career to empowering women in leadership roles across various industry sectors.
Her leadership experience spans leadership development, team dynamics, and organizational strategy, thus making her a sought-after advisor and coach. Her impact is widely recognized, and she continues to inspire and support women in their professional journeys, helping them to navigate the complexities of leadership and achieve sustained success.
[00:02:38] Tommy Thomas: Dianne, welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership.
[00:02:41] Dianne Ogle: Thank you for having me, Tommy. I'm excited to be here with you.
[00:02:45] Tommy Thomas: I've been looking forward to this. You come with good recommendations from one of my previous guests and one of my future guests. I'm looking forward to this. Take me back to your childhood. What was that like? What are some of your fondest memories?
[00:02:59] Dianne Ogle: I grew up in the Midwest. I was born in Colorado but grew up in Indiana with a high work ethic, middle class. Early on, my parents took us to a church that didn't really preach the gospel as far as what the Bible taught.
And one summer when I was 11, my mom took us to a local Baptist church that had VBS. That was the first time both my mom and I heard the gospel. And she became a Christian with the mother’s group that they had. And then I did shortly thereafter and so it was a beautiful place to grow up and go to college.
And we lived on the baseball field because I had a brother who played baseball up until minor leagues. And so, there were three of us. I was the oldest of three. So, it was just a great way to grow up in the Midwest.
[00:03:57] Tommy Thomas: So, what was high school like?
[00:03:57] Dianne Ogle: I had to change high schools in my junior year. I went to one school in Indianapolis from kindergarten until my sophomore year. And then my parents went north of Indianapolis. And at the time it was a really rural area in Fishers, Indiana, which now it's like the largest high school. But back when I transferred, it was farm kids and I was the city girl moving out into the farm kids and I went kicking and screaming.
That was not a good transition for me, but the Lord's hand was in it even then. I had to take the driver's ed course and I had the athletic director who was a tough football coach, and my dad was a barker, so he didn't intimidate me, but he quickly got me involved and got me to be a stat girl because my brothers were athletes.
[00:04:58] Dianne Ogle: And he taught me to do the statistics for football, basketball, and track. And so, it was a great entry into a smaller school that was very established with kids who had been growing up together. And then I got a chance to be in musicals and got to play in Annie Get Your Gun. So, it was just a fun, great group.
[00:05:22] Tommy Thomas: What kind of career aspirations did a young 16-year-old Dianne have?
[00:05:29] Dianne Ogle: I had a lot of parents thinking I should go to California to go into acting. I had a lot of common sense of knowing the value of a dollar. Because I was raised that if you wanted extra money, you had to work.
So, I started working as a babysitter at age 11, got my first job at 15. I bought furniture, I bought my car. And so, I had a really deep, intrinsic work value at a very young age. And I didn't have a lot of role models of women. Unless you wanted to be a teacher or a nurse, there was not a lot of women, at least in my little world view at that time in the Midwest.
[00:06:06] Dianne Ogle: Mom stayed at home with us. Now I knew she had worked at the Air Force Academy back when she was single in finance but other than that, I didn't have a lot of visual people ahead of me that I could see. Now my dad was in business. And so that's started me out in that track of well, maybe that's what I’ll tip my toe into.
[00:06:29] Tommy Thomas: What's something that people are always surprised to find out about you?
[00:06:35] Dianne Ogle: They are probably surprised that I come from all brothers, that I was raised on a baseball field, that I love sports, and I can talk with the best of them about many sports.
And now I have three boys, and I've got a grandson. And so, Boys-R-Us is what we call ourselves. And I now have two granddaughters. Yay, I've been redeemed. But it's interesting because now the Lord has had me working with mostly all women. So, it's interesting. I was raised with mostly all men and then God's used it to now have me work with women. So it's been a sweet time.
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[00:07:10] Tommy Thomas: You graduated from college, and you got out in the workforce. Take me back to the first time you ever had a staff. And what do you remember about that element of basic leadership?
[00:07:23] Dianne Ogle: I started my career in Indianapolis at a computer software company. And then about a year and a half in, I was working in Pittsburgh running a sales territory and their president's club, only women. So, I learned really young about being the only woman in a whole salesforce and I didn't see any women ahead of me. And then I was tapped in Pittsburgh to come to central Florida and open an office for a temporary help company, which is in your industry. I didn't have any experience in it, but I thought I would just go down there. And that really was my first hand at leadership because before that, as you can imagine, I'm in charge of a sales territory and my clients and peers, but I wasn't having anybody that I was personally in charge of leading until I moved to Florida, had to launch this office.
[00:08:19] Dianne Ogle: This was back in the early eighties and I had it doing over a million dollars in annual revenue within three years and they eventually had me take over Tampa and then do trap troubleshooting up here in Atlanta where I'm at. But yeah, that was the first time I got inherited by a staff, but then I had to build staff.
I had to train them both inside sales and outside sales and didn't get a lot of training. It was just let’s go do it.
I really did it based on my own values on what I saw worked. I have a high work ethic and integrity is huge for me. And so being able to just navigate that was really important for me.
[00:09:05] Tommy Thomas: If I could have shadowed you earlier at that time, as you were building that team, what would the typical weekday or month look like?
Dianne Ogle: I started out with team meetings, daily team meetings, especially for my internal staff, of course that was back before computers.
And so, everything was on these huge Rolodex clocks and these files that were flipping around and we had clients, we had built it to Martin Marietta and law firms and Harcourt Brace Jovanovich. We were considered a little bit higher level administrative, so we didn't do lower and then we did some permanent placement.
We would start off our day on just trying to get our grounding. Who was going to do what and what was coming up. Because every morning you had either calls coming in from clients or you had employees that either could or could not make their commitment, which was always a challenge.
And then my sales staff, who are you going to visit? What appointments do you have? What do you need? How can I come alongside you? Do you want me to go with you? And so just that constant motivation and help to make sure that they were adhering to what we needed the office to do.
[00:10:24] Tommy Thomas: If I could have been in one of your staff meetings and you took a break and left the room and I asked them, what's the toughest thing about working for Dianne? What do you think they would have said?
[00:10:35] Dianne Ogle: Probably just adhering to their commitment to their numbers and even if the climate is tough, and it is hard with rejections, especially my sales team.
But having to get back on the phone or having to try to get back in front of people, which is, like I said, we didn't have computers. So, all of it was either you had to just do cold calling. Knock on those old doors, which I got kicked out of some buildings early in my career, but you just had to have that tenacity and not every day is that easy.
And so that's probably what they would say is that, boy, she's going to keep making us get up and go back out and try to call that person again and try to see them. Because we found that the more we could see people in person and have that face to face, the stronger that trust bridge and relationship could happen.
[00:11:28] Dianne Ogle: And then we can not only help navigate any kind of problems or issues, but we have a chance to grow together. And so, we all knew, and that's what I kept telling all our team, both internal and external. We've got to be able to find ways to get in front of them to build those relationships.
[00:11:46] Tommy Thomas: If I flip that, what would they say was the most rewarding part of being on your team?
[00:11:51] Dianne Ogle: Probably their autonomy. I'm not a micromanager. And so, if they wanted to do their schedule a certain way, I wasn't going to micromanage how they did it. I always want to just come alongside to encourage and spur them on and help to motivate them for their highest and best. And quite frankly, it's tough every day, whether you're going through something personal, cause we're all whole people, right?
[00:12:15] Dianne Ogle: And how we show up each day can change based on other areas of our life that could be impacting us. And so just helping to navigate that I care deeply about not only today working with my C level clients, but also back then. We are real people. We have real issues. And so how can we be there to support each other?
[00:12:38] Tommy Thomas: You started out not having many mentors. When did mentors show up in your life?
[00:12:45] Dianne Ogle: Once I asked.
[00:12:47] Tommy Thomas: Okay.
[00:12:48] Dianne Ogle: I had my first child in Texas, and I was working for a corporation running the head of their marketing department. And I had to put my oldest son in with a lady who had a small group of children in her home.
And every day I'd go get him, and I would see him in a swing. And I told my husband, I cannot do this. I cannot feel like I could run this marketing department yet. I want to have more of an impact on my own son. And so, my boss said, great. So that's when I made the transition from corporate into on my own.
Cause she said just do your own job, go start your own business, figure out what that looks like. And I'll be your first client. And I thought, oh my goodness, how am I going to do this? And so, I ended up listening to a lady who was a speaker. She came from a similar but different background than me, but I could see, we saw things similar, and I thought, that's it.
[00:13:48] Dianne Ogle: I'm going to go up afterwards and ask her to mentor me. And what I didn't know, she was highly sought after. She was an author and a public speaker. And she heard my why and my desperation. And she goes, of course, but you'll have to do homework. I'm like, fine, put me to work. And her name's Betty Price out of Dallas.
And she was a gem. She shared; she opened her heart. She showed me how to write contracts. She showed me how to set up a business and really grow it. So that was absolutely amazing.
[00:14:20] Tommy Thomas: Before we get a little broader, what are some times in your life that have really tested your metal and what did you learn?
[00:14:36] Dianne Ogle: I got married at 30 and then we moved from Florida to Texas for my husband to go to seminary to get a master's in religious education and marriage and family counseling.
And so, I was the breadwinner, which didn't bother me at all because I'd been independent and been earning my own income, but it bothered him more because he came from a hospitality background. And so that was an interesting season for us because I didn't fit the mold of most seminary wives or any that I ever saw.
And we couldn't live on campus because my job location would bend too far for me to commute in that big metroplex. That was a hard season. Being a newlywed, having a heart for the Lord, but not finding community for anybody who could really. In fact, I got a lot of judgment and condemnation because of what I did.
And I wasn't fitting that traditional role of a seminary wife. That was painful back then.
[00:15:41] Tommy Thomas: Frederick Wilcox says progress always involves risk. You can't steal second base with your foot on first. What's the biggest risk you've ever taken and how did it turn out?
[00:15:53] Dianne Ogle: Starting my own business. That was out of desperation. I had no vision. So that was also something I really wrestled with. Cause I'm like, I don't sell Tupperware or Avon. I don't know, what do you do? But it helped me. At least my old boss said do what you do now for me. And you'll figure it out.
And sure enough, I started having small businesses tap me to help them. At least I initially started helping them on how they could grow their business through effective sales and marketing and with the teams that they had and how to develop those teams so that they could be a producing, performing, high performance, achieving team together. But that was a huge risk because we were still meeting my income. And so, you go from the luxury of having great benefits and a great package to, oh my goodness, I got to build this thing fast.
[00:16:49] Tommy Thomas: It's been said, most of us learn most things from our failures. If that's the case, why are most of us so afraid to fail?
[00:16:57] Dianne Ogle: Because sometimes the stakes are high. Like in my case, we needed my income, and we needed it, it wasn't a luxury. We didn't have a lot put aside or family that would just say, oh, let me write you a check or any kind of investments back in that day. And so, there was a lot on the line for us to succeed or for me to succeed for sure. And yet still support my husband and our joint goals moving forward.
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[00:17:27] Tommy Thomas: Let's move a little bit into your current organization. I'm fascinated and I'm going to probably mispronounce the title. So why don't you save me that embarrassment? And you tell us about your women's collaborative.
[00:17:39] Dianne Ogle: It's called Areté Executive Women of Influence. Areté is a Greek word. It is unique. But when, and I can tell you the backstory, the name is a Greek word that means excellence and the Greek men and women attained it, especially in the face of adversity. And when I saw that definition, I'm like, that's it.
That's the name. Because we all could either opt out or we press into the pain and stay in the game that God's called us to through that whole sphere of excellence, right? It's not perfectionism, but it's excellence.
[00:18:19] Tommy Thomas: Where did the idea come from? Did you think about it on the tennis court one day or did somebody approach you?
[00:18:26] Dianne Ogle: We serve a master weaver. He weaves our story, weaves our expertise. So, one of the clients that I had when I first started my business, someone in New York City found me and said, hey, we want to start a chapter for women business owners that are at a higher level. We want to start a chapter there in Dallas and we want you to launch it, grow it, run it.
And of course I had no background in that. I had other background, but I knew what it would take. I could see what it would take. Initially I said, no, because by then I think I had two little boys at home. I had other clients on my books, but they kept coming back around. And I thought, you know what? If I can rally women, because I too know the plight of the high-level woman and I can encourage her.
Then I need to be open to it. And so, it was very quickly the Lord let me know that I should take that endeavor on. And so, I grew a very large chapter in Dallas, ended up taking over their Houston chapter. And then there were some ethical issues. I just couldn't protect my Dallas women anymore.
[00:19:39] Dianne Ogle: I finally let them know I need to step aside because I cannot continue to be this placeholder for some integrity issues that I just can't be a part of anymore. So, they said Dianne, start your own. I'm like, okay. That's not my vision but they were desperate. So, I started my own with that particular group.
They all came with me, not that I was trying to do it out of ill means. It was their choice. And so, I launched it, figured out how to do a 501C(3) and did that until we moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. And I had my third boy at age 40, and I did that for just a small bit. And I finally handed the baton over to them and said, you take the organization.
[00:20:22] Dianne Ogle: I'm going to get this back to you because I needed to be more present for my boys in that new season. So then fast forward, we moved to Orlando and oh, back up, one other caveat. They called me their little Christian leader. And so, I always felt handcuffed in my leadership with them. They knew I was a Christian.
I'm not a Bible leader, but I'm authentically going to be who God created me to be. But they put me on notice that you better keep that in a box. And I thought, I told my husband, I said, that is too hard. That doesn't fit who I am. I'll never do that again. Love when you tell the Lord, never going to do that again.
[00:21:06] Dianne Ogle: That was hard. So fast forward in 20, the crash happened in 08. My husband had been with Wyndham Worldwide at that point for a decade and his job got released, finally catching up to him about 2010. So, I started introducing him to some men that I didn't know. They didn't know my backstory.
They didn't know me, but I would get us in front of some men. Cause I wanted to teach my husband, just have to tell your story and see what God's doing and see if there's any fits. Tommy, four men in a short amount of time would look across the table at me and I'm trying not to keep the conversation on me at all and said, Dianne, you need to start something for the high-level woman.
By the fourth one, who was the president of the Central Florida Chamber, he just knew he couldn't meet the needs of his high-level women and that he would come in contact with another one. It was his partner. Another one. It was his wife who was an engineer. It was, they were all coming from different places and spaces, but they heard the plight of the high-level woman.
[00:22:10] Dianne Ogle: So, I went back to my prayer closet, and I thought, Lord, I always say, here I am, use me, send me. I thought, woe to me if I start putting guardrails up going, been there, done that, this is too hard, I know what it would take. And he quickly showed me four columns, like those Grecian columns. Before he gave me the name of Areté, which is interesting how God works, but I'm a visual girl.
And he showed me that they would come from profit, non-profit, academia, and public service sectors. Because I always knew we were missing a lot of women. Not every woman owns her own business. I didn't come from that space. I ended up there by default, but I came from corporate, and I thought we're missing women everywhere, especially women of faith and those who love Jesus.
[00:22:55] Dianne Ogle: And I thought, what Lord, what would it look like if we could link arms with this higher level of women and create a container of confidentiality of trust of authenticity and vulnerability. What would that look like, Lord? And what could we do where we are better together? As one of our members says.
And so that's when Areté was born. I called my CPA at the time and said, this has been a year since I've done this. I don't know Florida laws. And she said, Dianne, get it going. I'll be your first member. I was like, whoa, I hadn't even quite made the decision that I was going to do this.
Then I'm like jumping in the fire ring again. So that's how that got launched.
[00:23:39] Tommy Thomas: So, it's primarily a word-of-mouth growth pattern.
[00:23:42] Dianne Ogle: Yes, Tommy, I would say absolutely. And our men still do this day. I had a pastor in Tennessee call me this week. He used to be my pastor at Knoxville.
And he said, hey, I've met somebody that, there's not many of y'all out here, but she needs to talk to you. And because I also do executive coaching. So, she wasn't sure if she needed executive coaching or if she needed an Areté type of group. Because we have a chapter in central Florida, one in Atlanta, and then I have remote members now I've opened that up for the past two years.
In Texas and Pennsylvania. And yeah, it's been quite an adventure for sure. Over the last 13 years now.
[00:24:22] Tommy Thomas: Next week, we will continue this conversation with Dianne Ogle. In that episode, Dianne shares her insights on the importance of authenticity, community, and resilience in leadership. She delves into the importance of building a supportive community among women leaders and the role of prayer in strengthening leadership.
She'll also share her observations on key areas that can derail leadership or enhance a leader's career. This episode offers profound insights for anyone looking to deepen their leadership impact.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search - What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Areté - Executive Women of Influence
Connect
[email protected]
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Follow Dianne on LinkedIn
Listen to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify
[00:00:00] Samuel Chiang I would say to an upstart, boards are extremely demanding. And sometimes, those boards are like your father and mother, and they want to actually be helicoptering you all along. Be certain that you have people who are for you and not people who are wanting to have their agenda done through you.
It's probably the number one thing, and you say, what does that mean to have people who are for you, people who are going to be praying with you through the thin and thick things, and they not only believe in the vision, but also, they will call you to accountability because they know it's good and proper for you.
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[00:00:47] Tommy Thomas: Today, we're continuing the conversation we began last week with Samuel Chiang. In this episode, Samuel delves into the intersections of faith and technology. He discusses his journey from Taiwan to becoming a global leader in Bible translation and digital innovation. He shares insights on how artificial intelligence and emerging technologies are transforming the nonprofit sector. He also reflects on the challenges and opportunities of leading in a complex and rapidly changing world. Samuel’s thoughtful perspectives offer valuable lessons for leaders in any sector, particularly those navigating the intersection of faith in technology. This episode is a must listen for anyone interested in leadership, innovation and the impact of technology on global missions. Join me as we pick up where we left off last week.
[00:01:46] Tommy Thomas: If you were writing a book on the burdens of leadership that only the President or the CEO could uniquely bear, what would be some of your topics or chapters you would discuss?
[00:01:59] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, so this is a very interesting question. For me, at the stage of life I'm in now and looking back, I think I would be consistent to say that the formation of the soul in a leader and in discipling and mentoring is absolutely critical.
[00:02:27] Samuel Chiang: And quite frankly, I'm thankful that I have been mentored by books in many different ways. Whether it's your classic Bobby Clinton, The Making of a Leader, or your Bill Hall, he wrote a trilogy of books, Disciple Making Pastors and things like that. Those sorts of things spoke into my life very deeply and it's been a part of my practice.
My practice has been, how does a leader disciple? In a workplace and really, quite frankly, in a non for profit to a for profit, both our workplaces, the discipling in both mentoring must go on in both. But when you move into a C suite level, there is an extra dimension in terms of the formation of the soul formation, in the C suites.
What is it God is up to, to have individuals in the C suites and how are they dealing with things on the inside? Those are very important topics.
[00:03:32] Tommy Thomas: Any books you're reading on those topics that people might learn from.
[00:03:38] Samuel Chiang: Oh, there have been many different books. Probably, Jim Wilder, is a wonderful, great read.
Others would be thin little books, but profound, equally. And I read them over and over, Ari Nguyen's books. I would say they're very important as well for the soul. I would say also those books are not ones in which people want to learn how to, those ones are much more feeding into the being side. How am I, and what are my biggest shadows? That is a detriment for leading others.
[00:04:01] Tommy Thomas: Maybe a lighter question. If you were a judge on a nonprofit version of Shark Tank, and people were coming to you for early-stage investments, what questions have you got to have answers to before you open your checkbook?
[00:04:43] Samuel Chiang: Oh, yeah. Okay.
What is the problem that you're trying to solve?
What is your purpose?
And who is on your board?
[00:04:51] Tommy Thomas: Unpack the board piece for a minute. Boards are so critical. And what are you telling an upstart about their board?
[00:05:04] Samuel Chiang: Yeah. I would say to an upstart, boards are extremely demanding. And sometimes, those boards are like your father and mother, and they want to be helicoptering you all along. Be certain that you have people who are for you and not people who are wanting to have their agenda done through you.
It's probably the number one thing, and you say, what does that mean to have people who are for you, people who are going to be praying with you through the thin and thick things, and they not only believe in the vision, but also they will call you to accountability because they know it's good and proper for you.
[00:05:52] Samuel Chiang: And people who are for you, probably, I always look for advisors or board members who are, if you will, not only right handed, but some of them would be left handed. We need both sides of people who are highly logical, but also highly creative. And so therefore, many people who are startups, have to pivot.
They have to be agile. They must think laterally and people who are very logical might not be able to pivot as quickly, but people who are highly creative could maybe see the things that the entrepreneur startup sees. So, you need a combination of both. And I will highly always recommend both men and women. The perspectives are real and they're meaningful.
[00:06:46] Tommy Thomas: Do you think it's important to have someone on the board who's a logical, or a natural critic, you say you want people for you and I get that. And then I see the piece about, holding you accountable. If I remember right, I think Rich Stearns told me at World Vision at each Board Meeting, they appoint, and they got a name for this person, but this person is supposed to say, yeah, but he or she is supposed to listen and then come back with a counter argument.
[00:07:17] Samuel Chiang: Yeah. Okay. The original question was about a startup. And then it applies whether you're going to have a counter argument. Would you have somebody who is going to be an appointed critic or appointed somebody who's going to say the bots. Absolutely. That would be healthy for the board.
And I used the word health in a very, meaningful way. You don't need just help, but you need health in the board and the health of the board, should have somebody who's going to be an open critic, constructive, and positive. For the whole board to receive those thoughts. It's absolutely important.
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[00:08:09] Tommy Thomas: Let's stick with our startup nonprofit. You're developing a dashboard to help the founder get at their health. What dials are you putting on the dashboard?
[00:08:20] Samuel Chiang: Wow. I will say, on the dials, I would want to know, what are we measuring? And, depending on the type of nonprofits, I would say, yes, you want to measure your financial health, but you want to be able to measure your human health.
You want to be able to measure your social capital health, depending on the type of not for profit. You may also want to measure your natural health. So, there's several different items to measure from your human capital, financial capital, social capital, natural capital, and then, on a dashboard, I also will want to know what is our pathway to solving the problem.
[00:09:06] Samuel Chiang: For any social entrepreneur, you have to ask the question, for the Shark Tank question that you're asking. What was your purpose? What problems are you trying to solve? And who's on your board? You have to have a clear pathway to solve your problem. And then, probably, what does sustainability look like in multiple horizons?
[00:09:32] Tommy Thomas: I've read two or three articles in the past six months, about the productivity of people that would be my age and your age and older. And it seems like a lot of us are pretty productive. After working your way through a career, do you have any thoughts on employing people in their upper years and what you might expect there.
[00:10:00] Samuel Chiang: For people who are in their upper years, I will want to say to them, you still have a lot to offer, and that offering is for people to be taken either one sip at a time, one bite at a time. You cannot give it to them all at once. And nobody wants it all at once.
It may not be relevant all at once. And I would say to be very selective on the assignments that you're going to take. Be watching out for the talent that may be placed in front of you. And it would be wonderful if the relationship developed with those talents are such that they're coming for you. So, they want to learn from you.
That's a whole lot easier than if you want others to learn about you. Ao those are some initial things I would say.
[00:11:07] Tommy Thomas: Let’s go to succession planning. You've experienced that in different organizations. I'm sure on boards you've sat on, y'all have done it. What's the pros and cons of promoting from within to the CEO chair?
[00:11:25] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, so it really depends on the season that the organization is in. Sometimes, it is better to bring somebody from the outside. I would say this in a healthy organization that's larger, if leaders develop, the way the management system works, I would say it would be, my preference would be to promote someone from within for a larger organization than to bring them out from the outside.
Yeah, it does matter depending on the season the organization is in.
[00:12:04] Tommy Thomas: How much of a role should the outgoing CEO play in hiring his or her successor?
[00:12:11] Samuel Chiang: Again, it depends on the stage of the organization. I would say that the hiring process probably is best as a muted voice rather than an active voice, because it's really the board's responsibility.
And, to have a CEO, to have an active voice, some dynamics just get weird. And then, if there's an active voice by the outgoing CEO, on the next hire, and the next hire did not go well, et cetera, too many dynamics. So better to be muted.
[00:12:52] Tommy Thomas: What about the outgoing CEO maybe sticking around in an emeritus role as emeritus CEO, or even serving on the board?
[00:13:03] Samuel Chiang: Yeah. I have met with a situation in one of the boards I currently sit on, the outgoing CEO or former leader is in the emeritus role. As long as there is a real understanding of that emeritus role in terms of a job description. Pretty boxy. And if there's a continued passion for that person to be in the boxy emeritus role, I'm all for it.
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[00:13:37] Tommy Thomas: Let's go to a couple of quotes I wanted to get your response to.
If you never color outside the lines, the picture will never change.
[00:13:49] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, I totally agree.
Tommy Thomas: And y'all did a little bit of that, with Wycliffe and the Seed Company.
[00:13:56] Samuel Chiang: Oh, we did. And I think they still do.
[00:14:02] Tommy Thomas: No matter what job you have in life, your success will be determined 5 percent by your academic credentials, 15 percent by your professional experience, and 80 percent by your communication skills.
[00:14:16] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, I agree with that. And I think the communication skills are one of EQ, because I'm thinking in a smaller startup and the median size organization. Yes. Your communication skills are really you at the leader, but even at larger organizations, that communication skill could be outsourced by other people and, outsourced to someone who has your voice and writing things for you, but you yourself must have that ability to be relational with your colleagues and with people who are in your company work organization.
[00:15:00] Tommy Thomas: Never tell people how to do things, tell them what to do. And they will surprise you with their ingenuity. General George Patton.
[00:15:11] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, I totally agree with that. Yeah, and especially these days with all the generative AI and all that stuff.
[00:15:20] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, you try to outsmart that. No, you're not going to, it's not going to happen. So, I agree with General George Patton.
[00:15:28] Tommy Thomas: A lot of people have said they, I guess their persona of General Patton is that he would have never operated that way. I've not read enough about him to make a meaningful comment there.
[00:15:39] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, it would. I'm still learning, so I'll have to find out.
[00:15:47] Tommy Thomas: Yeah, let's go back to board for a minute. Here's a quote. The fewer board members, the better. If it's 18, I'm just not interested. Ernest Happel.
[00:15:56] Samuel Chiang: I totally agree. It's very difficult. Yeah, Jesus had a reason for a dozen.
[00:16:07] Tommy Thomas: Let’s close this thing out with a couple of, maybe penetrating questions. If you had a do over in life to do, what would it be?
[00:16:27] Samuel Chiang: Probably I would maybe want to stay at home a little bit more, travel a little bit less. In 1992 to 2000, 2001, it was 100, 120 days a year. 2002 to 2016 was about 150, 160 days a year and it went down a little bit and right now it's gone back up. I would say I would maybe want to travel a little bit less.
Though I will say this. I have always asked our kids, would you like me to be gone during the week and come home on the weekends? We're taking longer trips and then staying home longer. They, without fail said, no, take short trips, always be home on the weekends. That's what we practiced.
[00:17:22] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, as far as redo - No, I think other than that, I don't think there's too many things that I would want to redo.
[00:17:30] Tommy Thomas: Yeah. If you could tell a younger version of yourself one thing, what would it be?
[00:17:40] Samuel Chiang: I probably would say something to the effect, don't just think about discipleship and mentorship of others. Think about your interior life earlier and how God is actively creating that infrastructure, the interior life. And that's probably something I would want a younger leader to hear, learn, and experience earlier.
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[00:18:11] Tommy Thomas: Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes at our website: www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast.
If there are topics you'd like for me to explore, my email address is [email protected]. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search - What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Beyond Literate Western Models - Contextualizing Theological Education in Oral Contexts - Samuel Chiang
Orality Breakouts - Using Heart Language to Transform Hearts - Samuel Chiang & Avery T. Willis
Connect
[email protected]
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Listen to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify
[00:00:15] Samuel Chiang: When I was probably 11, maybe 12 years old, I told my grandfather I wanted to be like him. He was a lawyer, and he immigrated to Canada after us.
And he was a specialist in the Canadian government when he arrived in Canada, because he knew Chinese law. When I said to him, I want to be like you, he said to me, your English must be impeccable. And I said, okay. He said, but I wouldn't want you to practice as a defense lawyer.
I said, why? He didn't answer the question right away. He said, you may want to be a corporate lawyer. That always stuck with me. And then he said, you don't want to be a defense lawyer because sometimes you could be defending somebody, and then in the midst of a trial, they confess to you everything.
[00:01:16] Samuel Chiang: And you're stuck. He said, it's very painful to handle that type of thing in the midst of a trial.
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[00:01:24] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Samuel Chiang. Samuel has a diverse and accomplished background that significantly influenced his leadership. He was born in Taiwan and later moved to Canada where he grew up and began his professional career. He graduated from the University of Toronto when he began his career at Ernst & Young in Canada.
In addition to Ernst & Young, Samuel has served in senior leadership roles with The International Orality Network, Trans World Radio and Partners International. He also served as the president and CEO of The Seed Company, a Bible translation organization within the Wycliffe family. Under his leadership, the organization focused on making scriptures available in oral and written forms for unreached and Bibleless peoples. Along the way he gained a great appreciation for using technology in the workplace. And he pioneered the use of AI in both the private and non-profit sectors. He and his wife Robbi make their home in the Dallas Metroplex.
Let's pick up on the conversation with Samuel Chiang.
[00:02:46] Tommy Thomas: What's your happiest memory of childhood?
[00:02:51] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, it depends on which segment. I remember, in my early teens, playing my violin. Whether it was solo, whether it was ensemble, whether it was orchestral, that was very special, that I remembered. I remember playing tennis, teaming together in tennis.
[00:03:11] Samuel Chiang: It was great. You might not know this about me, I'm a five-time immigrant, and so my immigrant experience, even when I was younger, first arrived from Taiwan to Canada, everything was new. That was a wonderful memory.
[00:03:28] Tommy Thomas: At what age did y'all come to Canada?
[00:03:31] Samuel Chiang: I was a little bit over 10 years old. And, so everything was new, yeah, all the senses were new. I only had the alphabet and seven phrases of courteous language, thank you, excuse me, will you please, those types of languages. And that's how I started in Canada.
[00:03:54] Tommy Thomas: Do you remember how long it took you to get reasonably fluent in English?
[00:04:01] Samuel Chiang: Oh, my goodness, it was quite a long time. Let's just say, you're grade five, grade six, grade five, in Canada. Probably I did not become fluent until I was nearly 16.
[00:04:15] Tommy Thomas: Wow. So, what's the greatest gift that your parents gave you?
[00:04:24] Samuel Chiang: I think immigrating to Canada. They're both Christians. They said to us, we don't want you to be conscripted into the military in Taiwan. And so, we want to give you and your brother a chance to experience things very differently. And I believe the gift of Canada in that immigration and the growth in that environment was the greatest gift my parents gave to us.
[00:04:55] Tommy Thomas: What was high school like in Canada?
[00:05:00] Samuel Chiang: I went to a high school that was 66 percent Jewish. And I knew the sons and daughters of literally captains of industries. And I watched how they grew up in a very unique setting. Jewish people, by and large, love the arts, are great contributors to society as a whole, from history to research, etc.
And when they love the arts, their sons and daughters are top in their forms in terms of music, et cetera. So it was, they pulled me along. I was a learner. I thought I was good at playing my violin, but these other students were even better than I am. And they pulled me along.
[00:05:45] Tommy Thomas: You decided to go to university. Did you consider a lot of colleges and universities, or did you pick one and say, I'm going there?
[00:05:55] Samuel Chiang: My goodness. in Canada, it's interesting in Canada, you get to pick three. I did. And then it was ultimately my parents saying to me, if you went to this university and lived at home, we'll pay for everything.
I accepted that and actually stayed home and went to University of Toronto, and studied economics and finance and accounting and it was good. It was good to be in Toronto.
[00:06:23] Tommy Thomas: How did you get into the econ and finance and accounting field? Did you know somebody that had been a CPA or an economist?
[00:06:32] Samuel Chiang: No, numbers were always of interest to me. And, let me rewind the conversation a little bit, for myself. When I was probably 11, maybe 12 years old, I told my grandfather I wanted to be like him. He was a lawyer, and he immigrated to Canada after us.
And he was a specialist in the Canadian government, when he arrived in Canada, because he knew Chinese law and when I said to him, I want to be like you, he said to me, your English must be impeccable. And I said, okay, he said, but I wouldn't want you to practice as a defense lawyer.
I said, why? He didn't answer the question right away. He said, you may want to be a corporate lawyer. That always stuck with me. And then he said, you don't want to be a defense lawyer because sometimes you could be defending somebody, and then in the midst of a trial, they confess to you everything.
[00:07:42] Samuel Chiang: And you're stuck. He said, it's very painful to handle that type of thing in the midst of a trial. And I listened to that. And so, I thought, do I want to be a corporate lawyer? But reading was not my strong suit. Not yet at that time. And then I love numbers. And so, that’s the way I went into accounting, finance and economics.
[00:08:12] Tommy Thomas: So, what was your favorite part of college?
[00:08:21] Samuel Chiang: At University of Toronto, there were two things. One was in social sciences, sociology, and then the other one was actually computer science which surprised me because in high school, I never took computer science, but at University of Toronto, at that time still had to use those card decks where you punch holes and all that, and we used that to solve problems. That was solving problems and I loved it.
[00:08:50] Tommy Thomas: You and I would be from that age. Yes. We took Fortran and COBOL, and we had those big, big boxes of cards. And, yes, I remember those days. What is something that people are always surprised to find out about you?
[00:09:13] Samuel Chiang: They would say to me, even most recently, they would say, oh, you speak English so well. I don't know what to say about that. That's a surprising thing. Actually, the world over, I have had people saying that to me.
[00:09:30] Tommy Thomas: Think back to your first management job when you actually had some people that you were responsible for. What do you remember about that?
[00:09:40] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, I remember very specifically at Ernst & Young that even when I have people reporting to me, even though I was maybe really green in my experiences, people were just very respectful. They were very accepting and very professional.
[00:09:58] Samuel Chiang: That just made me feel like they were helping me to do what I needed to do. And even though I might not even have much experience in doing any supervision, I always remember the way that people accepted me. They were very professional, very respectful.
[00:10:21] Tommy Thomas: Each of us probably has times in our life where in the South, we would say our metal has been tested. I'm not sure what the Canadian equivalent with that, or the Chinese equivalent for that would be, but have you had times in your life when your metal was tested? And if so, how did you come out of it?
[00:10:39] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, so very specifically, I remember in high school, in one of the violin pieces in the ensemble, I worked hard to get the lead part in that ensemble, very specifically for a competition. I didn't get it. Another student who was a great younger got it.
And yeah, my heart was crushed. But that was one of those sorts of moments. I had to really console myself to say, okay, this is the Bach triple violin concerto. So, there are three leads. I got none of those, but I'm still the lead for the entire ensemble. And that's a role to play.
So, I better play it well. And so that was the first time. The second time was, that I recall very specifically, was in an organization. On the one hand, being interviewed to be the CEO of the organization. On the other hand, I had a whole group of people complaining about me and they were doing an examination about my ministry practices and procedures and all that stuff.
[00:12:02] Samuel Chiang: And, I remember during the interview that the board chair said, I just hope that examination piece will go away soon so that we can interview you properly. As it turns out, that examination piece did not go away anytime soon. It took nine months, but it was great. It was a wonderful experience with the Lord.
I would never trade it for anything else. Because I was in that situation, they decided not to interview me further for the candidacy of CEO for that organization. That was crushing, but between the two, I would never trade the experience with the Lord going deep with him, and don't even want to come out of the water, if you will, we're out of the ocean, if you will, and just want to stay longer.
So that's a heart matter that was very deep within me.
[00:13:06] Tommy Thomas: You've built a lot of organizations over the years, been CEO, founded companies. Let's talk about hiring for a minute. When you're hiring at the cabinet level in general, what are you looking for?
[00:13:18] Samuel Chiang: At the cabinet level, the C level, I often look for their EQ, the emotional quotient, that's pretty important to me, their character, their culture.
And then their competency, character and culture. Those are non-negotiables competencies, you could throw that where you could delegate some of it away, but their emotional quotient, their culture, their character.
[00:13:50] Tommy Thomas: What's your favorite or most effective interview question?
[00:13:57] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, I think we might even start around the same place. Tell me a little bit about your childhood. I would love to hear the friends and the friendships and the relationships that you have had. And then I also ask often, tell me a little bit about how you left home for your work, for your college, for your university.
[00:14:23] Tommy Thomas: Wow. That is a penetrating question. Yeah. How you left home. Yeah, one of my recent podcast guests said that one of the things she wished that she learned earlier was how to terminate somebody with grace and dignity. What have you learned about terminating people when it's just not working out?
[00:14:52] Samuel Chiang: My biggest piece about termination is, I have to be very clear. I have to tell myself not to pass on any problems further. Oftentimes you terminate because people handed it to you. And, with grace and all that be very clear, keep the dignity of the individual, offer ways to consider rescaling, or in some cases offer them the possibility for HR to help them to look for their next assignment.
[00:15:28] Samuel Chiang: Those are some of the things that I have practiced and have practiced consistently. The clarity is very important for people.
[00:15:43] Tommy Thomas: You've been president of The Seed Company and other organizations but take us into that presidency. How did you get there? What was it like when you got there?
[00:15:57] Samuel Chiang: Oh, wow. Yeah. I have served on the board of The Seed Company.
And I learned a lot. And then I remember, it's a long story. I'll keep it short. I was invited to come off the board to apply and I did. And it was the summer of 2014. And during that time, I wasn't quite sure I was supposed to apply, even though I'd been invited. So, I prayed, and it was during the time that the summer of 2014 was, the Ebola crisis in West Africa.
I was actually in West Africa at the time, and the Lord met me, twice. Nothing audible, but it was a sense of understanding from the Lord. And because of those two understandings, very deep, very unique moments. It was almost like he was having inner conversations with me. It was out of that experience that I put myself forward.
[00:17:08] Samuel Chiang: And then I also asked the Lord, I said, I need to know that I have a specific assignment within The Seed Company or Bible translation as a whole. And he did, he put on my heart the need for the Old Testament very specifically. So, it was through that and ultimately, the visa process that came into this country, in the United States on a O-1 visa.
And then, when I was pointed into the role and started, the board was ever so kind to provide an onboarding coach. That was marvelous in the sense that I lived overseas, working in Hong Kong for 25 years, coming into the United States. I discovered much later; I have multiple massive gaps.
And the board was so kind to bring along onboarding coaching and subsequent coaches for me to bridge the gap and understand things. And so that was wonderful in the role. It was challenging. It was knee driven every day, asking God for things that I've never asked before, and then watching and understanding God's leading in that.
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[00:18:29] Tommy Thomas: Now, I probably don't know all the, know the whole, how to explain that, but my understanding was that The Seed Company was, at least at one level, a way of shortening the Bible translation process from the classical Wycliffe M.O. Is that correct? Is that more or less, right? Yes. So you, if you're operating there, I'm assuming you had some pushback from people that had been in the field translating the classical way for many years.
How did y'all resolve that and realize that those two things could probably peacefully coexist?
[00:19:07] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, I think I'll answer that on multiple levels. One level is for the desire of people receiving the scripture sooner rather than later. Everyone, it's almost a justice issue, isn't it?
Everybody has a right to the scripture, and will they receive it sooner rather than later? So that is the DNA within and then the indigenous model, which The Seed Company was founded upon, of the indigenous church doing the translation of the Word. That's a little bit different and we need both.
[00:19:49] Samuel Chiang: We absolutely need both of the people who have been called. But the calling of the missionary and the calling of the indigenous translator, they're the same call to serve God, and in a very specific field, Bible translation. And so, we need both. Coexistence doesn't always come easy, even today. I'm still involved in Bible translation in other organizations.
And even today, it's still not easy. Even with church-based translation, and even with artificial intelligence, that friction continues and the friction that continues, it's really a sense of working it out relationally, horizontally, and then vertically with God. What is God's desire in all of this?
So, man's side of holding on to the tension is always very interesting.
[00:20:57] Tommy Thomas: A pastor on the East Coast once told me, see if I remember this right, he said the most difficult thing in the world is living in the center of the tension of God's will.
[00:21:07] Samuel Chiang: Oh, my goodness, it really is.
And then in Bible translation, it's not only living in the center of God's will, but the desire to have quality assurance, really super wonderful, clear, natural language of the translation, so that the community as a whole will say that is God's Word for me.
[00:21:33] Tommy Thomas: What's the most ambitious project you've ever undertaken and how did you get the team to follow you?
[00:21:41] Samuel Chiang: Probably the most ambitious one that I've taken was when we did the First Light Project. First Light Project was a technology project.
And then to have content providers that will link in with the studies of the Chinese word of all resident on a software program into China. Now, we have to remember, this is back in the mid 90s and late 90s. And everything back then, it was still slow. A cell phone was not really in existence. People remember satellite phones.
And then people in China were still at that time, having some scriptures, scripture was at that time, sometimes carried into China. And oftentimes, the good work of your friend Ed Cannon, FEBC, and then, Trans World Radio were broadcasting into China and people were scribing word for word the precious word of God, and we thought in a multiple horizon scenario, they will have the software and technology available to them.
[00:23:01] Samuel Chiang: Maybe what we could do is provide Bible resident on the software with content writers on it, and then give it to the church in China. That was avant garde. It was at the forefront of its time. And, trying to get people around the world on it, has been, that wasn't just in Hong Kong, but it would get people around the world on it was both exciting and exhausting.
[00:23:27] Tommy Thomas: So, if I could have shadowed you for maybe a year or so during that time, what would I have observed? What would you be doing?
Oh, wow. If you were shadowing me back in the 90s during that period of time, you would probably get something like this on a typical day. I would be in Hong Kong. Early in the morning, making calls to North America, trying to raise funds.
I would be during the daytime working with technical teams and contacting teams first to make sure the accuracy of the Bible in digital format will be there. And then in the afternoon, I will be working with the technical teams in India because it was not a Chinese team that wrote it.
It was actually the technical team in India that wrote the software for it, for the Chinese Bible. And so that would be a typical day of working, very exciting.
[00:24:26] Tommy Thomas: I want to stick with the technology piece for a minute. I know our good friend, Bill Hendricks, told me that you'd been involved in a couple of AI projects.
Can you take us into the world of AI and how it intersects with the nonprofit sector in general, and maybe talk about some pros and cons, some risks and rewards.
[00:24:46] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, sure. A little bit about AI, artificial intelligence, is, for me, the ones I have been involved in, very specifically, it was 2016 on a Sunday morning. I read in the news that Google AI beat the South Korean in gold chess. And then the newspaper reported that in any given second, the Google AI could calculate a hundred million moves. That got my mind thinking very quickly about the number one issue at that time in Bible translation was in sign language, there was not a scripture, not a full text of scripture for sign language.
And it got my mind thinking that people who are deaf in the deaf community when they sign, our body could only make so many gestures. To us, it might seem like millions, but it's a limited set. It's not unlimited. So, we thought maybe the computer vision could help solve that. And so that got us started on the artificial intelligence side of things and we created a not for profit and, and ultimately, we filed patents in that not for profit and then, a year and a half after it got started, not only the US Trademark and Patent office approved all those patents, the board of that not for profit asked us to spin it out into a for profit company and we did ultimately.
[00:26:39] Samuel Chiang: So that's a little bit of background to that. Could I expand a little bit?
[00:26:44] Tommy Thomas: Absolutely. You're talking to a novice here. I'm probably learning as much or more than anybody that's listening to this.
[00:26:50] Samuel Chiang: When we spun it out. The company name is called Avodah, AVODAH.com or AVODAH.ai.
[00:27:01] Samuel Chiang: It is a God story that we actually got that name. We had prayed in wanting to have a single word that would represent, work, worship and service. And we knew the Hebrew name for it, that the word for it, Avodah or Avoda. But to grab that domain name was not the easiest.
[00:27:25] Samuel Chiang: We're very thankful to God that it came. And as we spun it out, into the for profit, it's actually working on both the healthcare side as well as the language side, so as to serve, again, the language communities, who are without the word of God. And then also the healthcare side, for what we call ambient technology, ambient sensing.
[00:27:50] Samuel Chiang: So, it stays in the background. And it listens to your case. Let's just say you were the doctor. I walked into your office. You've maybe had a nurse practitioner that will meet with me, take my case, and then you as a doctor would meet me and look at the summary of the nurse practitioner has written down.
And the ambient AI technology sits in the background listening to the conversation once with the nurse practitioner and the second time again with the doctor. And then it's AI assisted, in helping, the doctor to either confirm or augment the decision and then on top of that, once the patient leaves it does automatic coding into the insurances, et cetera.
[00:28:40] Samuel Chiang: So that will reduce the amount of time in a doctor's office, the front office, and then it increases the ability for doctors to serve more patients and, hopefully, save money and maybe increase the revenue.
[00:28:56] Tommy Thomas: Wow. You hear people that are fear mongers about AI and what it might do to us and then you hear a story like that obviously made a huge difference. Where does the fear mongering play in?
[00:29:14] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, I think the fear mongering is very real and, unfortunately, people have misused AI in many different senses from voice for actors to pictures that portray individuals wrongly.
[00:29:31] Samuel Chiang:: And then of course, people use it, in ways that influence and affect, ultimately to the elections. All those are in place. So it is a very large piece that is under consideration for many of the societies right around the world. And it is a concern.
(00.20.56) Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes at our website: www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast.
If there are topics you'd like for me to explore, my email address is [email protected]. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search - What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Beyond Literate Western Models - Contextualizing Theological Education in Oral Contexts - Samuel Chiang
Orality Breakouts - Using Heart Language to Transform Hearts - Samuel Chiang & Avery T. Willis
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[00:00:00] Judy Douglass: A couple of years before we moved from California to Florida the Lord said to me, I'm sending you a son. And I said, no, thank you. And he said, I'm sending you a son. I said, okay, whatever you say, and time passed, and it didn't happen then and two years passed and he said, when you get to Florida, someone will say, can you take this boy? And I said, if that happens, then I guess this is from you, Lord.
Tommy Thomas Today, we're continuing the conversation we began last week with Judy Douglas. In this episode, Judy delves into her personal and professional journey, highlighting the importance of resilience, humility, and faith. She shares stories from her time working with Bill Bright and the transformative impact of adopting a foster child. This episode is packed with valuable lessons for leaders and caregivers alike. Let's pick up where we left off last week.
[00:01:06] Tommy Thomas: I'm curious. and here again, you've probably already alluded to this, but times in your life that have really tested your metal and what did you learn from those?
[00:01:19] Judy Douglass: I've mentioned that one was working with Bill Bright. And he just had strong different opinions than I did. And I needed to be responsive to him. He was the boss. So there were a couple of times when he wanted me to do something I really didn't want or think I could do because I didn't agree.
[00:01:48] And I asked the Lord, I said, maybe I should just leave the staff now. And the Lord said, no. He said, you can do what Bill wants you to do. And you've already demonstrated that you can help him see another perspective. and I'll give you an example of that. So, at Explo 74 in Korea, we went to Yeouido Island.
[00:02:19] Judy Douglass: And we had about 100,000 there, I think. I don't know. But the Korean people were reporting to the press that there were a million there every night. And I had another reporter from Christianity Today there also, and we said, there's no way there are many people here. And so, we actually walked the whole island.
And then said, all right, with Americans, you could only get this many because they're not going to be crunched up tight, but the Koreans are smaller, and they are willing to be right next to each other. And so, we got the biggest number we could possibly find. And it was not a million when Bill started to talk about it.
[00:03:12] Judy Douglass: And he said, there were a million people. And I said, Bill, there weren't a million people there. He said, that's what we need to say. I said, but it's not true. He said, that's what the Koreans are reporting, and we need to not offend them by not believing what they're saying. I said, okay, so here's how I can do that.
I can say the official reported numbers were by the police. And so, then that was true. That was their official reported numbers. But it's still always every time I heard somebody say there were a million people there. No, there weren't. No, there weren't. But that was hard. And I had a few run-ins with Dr. Bright that made me want to leave the staff. God just says this is where I want you and the other was waiting on Steve. It was a long wait, we got married, I was 31, now that wouldn't seem so strange, but 50 years ago, it seemed strange. You don't wait that long to get married, but God said, no, you wait, you just wait, I'm going to do this.
So those are two that were challenging for me. There have been some others, but those are probably the bigger ones.
[00:04:33] Tommy Thomas: You've observed a lot of leaders over the course of your life. What's the most dangerous behavior or trait that you've seen derail a leader's life?
[00:04:49] Judy Douglass: Pride. They think they know, and they may know, more than others.
But to think you're better or more, make decisions, but also pride leads to a sense that I can do what I want. I'm the boss, I'm in charge. And that's what leads to a lot of the failures that we've seen publicly lately is that. So more than anything, I think it's pride and that's why even as I talk about Bill Bright and Steve Douglass, both very capable men, great leaders, I watched them.
[00:05:31] Judy Douglass: They were maybe two of the humblest people I've ever met. And so I just get concerned when people have to draw attention to themselves. For me, one of my key things as I work with people and have a team, I still have a team of 15 people. They do all the work. I just love on them. I'll tell you a story back in my early days of doing the Collegiate Challenge Magazine.
No, the Worldwide Challenge. Bruce Cook, who was Steve's roommate at Harvard, said something to me about a project that we had done for the magazine. And he says, that was really good. And I said, it was good, wasn't it? I said, I didn't do that. So and so did it. And I named who it was. And I said, they did a great job.
[00:06:25] Judy Douglass: And he said, one of the most important leadership principles that you can learn is to lift up the other people, to send the credit where it belongs and not take it yourself. I just am so grateful that God has helped me grow in that. So, I would recommend it to anyone.
[00:06:51] Tommy Thomas: It's been said that we learn most from our failures. If that's the case, why are most of us so afraid to fail?
[00:07:00] Judy Douglass: Good question. I suppose I'm sure I can think of many, especially as a parent, but, one real failure was at two different times, but very similar. I had two women on my team that I was working a lot with and, I've already told you, I'm not a big rural follower and yet they were very structured and wanted to know exactly what was going to happen and who, and I just am a little looser and so, both of them ended up leaving our team. I didn't ask them to, I was sure we could come to some ability to work together, but they just felt they could not live on a team that was not more structured and that's who they were and everything. Now they're still friends to me that I could not help and see where I could work better.
[00:08:07] Judy Douglass: To be able to come together better because they were gifted people, and I was sad to see them go. So that was major. Probably another area that tested my metal and where I've seen failure is this boy that God sent us, right before we moved. A couple of years before we moved from California to Florida so, the Lord said to me, I'm sending you a son. And I said, no, thank you. And he said, I'm sending you a son. I said, okay, whatever you say, and time passed, and it didn't happen then, and two years passed and he said, when you get to Florida, someone will say, can you take this boy? And I said, if that happens, then I guess this is from you, Lord.
[00:09:03] Judy Douglass: Three weeks after we got here to Florida, this new friend said, do you know someone who could take an eight-year-old boy? And tears just came, and I said, we might, I probably ought to talk to Steve about that. Anyway, this boy, his mother was an addict, and he didn't know his father and his grandparents were raising his older half-sister and he was living in neglected and dangerous places and lots of stuff and the county finally took him away. And the grandparents had him, but they said we can't do two of them. And so, they were looking to put him in foster care, hopefully adoption. It took a while, like a year to work out with the county and he came to live with us.
[00:09:58] Judy Douglass: He was almost 10. He couldn't read or write. Basically all sorts of issues in his life. And God sent him to us. He was shocked. We go to bed at a certain time, dinner at a table that we ate. We had dinner, and it was just so many things that were different for him and for us. And so that was challenging.
But as he got older, it was harder and harder because he just was so wounded by all the things that happened to him and didn't happen for him. And we just, we know we made mistakes. We didn't do it all right. It was hard, but in the end, it took about 16, 17 years, a long time. He's a good man now.
[00:10:49] Judy Douglass: He's married, he has a stepdaughter, and then two little girls. He has a good job, drilling water wells out in the country, and they have a farm, and they raise animals, and all sorts of things, and he works. My husband, in his frustration, used to say he's the most creative work avoider I've ever seen.
And in the later years, the last few years, we looked at him and said, he works harder than any person we've ever seen. And so, God redeemed what we've made a lot of mistakes. We didn't know what we were doing. And he had a lot of more pain. He made a lot of bad choices, but God did a miracle for him, for us, and this Prayer for Prodigals Ministry that grew out of it.
[00:11:44] Tommy Thomas: If you were writing a book on the burdens of leadership that only the CEO can bear, what would some of your chapter titles be?
[00:11:54] Judy Douglass: Oh, I don't like titles, so I'm not going to tell you that. Thinking up titles is one of the hardest things I do. I would say that it is important to be authentic, to really be the person that God has created you to be. And treat people the way they need to be treated. To believe they have value and that they can contribute well. To honor people for their work. To be kind and engage with them whenever you can. A lot of times before COVID and when Steve was still President, and I was at the office a lot. I used to just spend an afternoon going from desk to desk and talking with them and showing them that they were valued there and telling them how their contribution was really of great value and asking needs or prayer requests. And I wrote a blog post once called it's the people and I refrain from saying stupid. Because people think they're the ones that are important and people that God has sent to participate, to partner with you in the work he's given you. They're there.
[00:13:28] Judy Douglass: You can't do it without them. So don't think you can. Recognize the contributions that they make both in your own mind, but to them and to others as well.
[00:13:44] Tommy Thomas: I want to get you to respond to a couple of quotes. This is always a fun part of the podcast to me. I'll go with this first one from CS Lewis. Pain insists upon being attended to. God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our consciences, but shouts in our pain. It's his megaphone to rouse a deaf world.
[00:14:09] Judy Douglass: That's fairly easy for me to answer because that's exactly what happened with our son. Without a doubt, the hardest, most painful part of this was all of those years trying to help him learn to be a person and a responsible one. But the pain that we experienced in that changed us a lot, helped us to learn to love and grace go further than strong words and anger or rejection in helping a person redeem.
And out of that has grown the Prayer for Prodigals. The Prayer for Prodigals Prayer Place on Facebook. A Facebook page of prayer for prodigals and every June 2nd a Prayer for Prodigals Worldwide Prodigal Prayer Day and we invite people to give us first names of someone they want prayed for and unless they ask us later to take the name off, we don’t.
[00:15:22] Judy Douglass: So it accumulates because who doesn't want people to pray for your loved one? Whoever it is, most often children or grandchildren, but also your spouse, or your brother, or sister, and so this year on June 2nd I was at my Grandson's graduation so I didn't participate as much, but people gather in small groups, or we do a zoom call kind of thing.
And we had the largest number that we know of praying, after I don't know how many years is up to, we have about 11,000 names that I'm halfway through praying, since I wasn't available on the day of prayer this year, I'm praying through it slowly myself and naming every person and bringing them before the Lord.
[00:16:11] Judy Douglass: So great pain that we went through, and yet God has brought very fruitful help to so many people through this opportunity.
[00:16:25] Tommy Thomas: Here's a new quote. I've not asked this to anyone yet. Beware of the shorn beard of reputation for it is hard to regrow.
[00:16:41] Judy Douglass: That goes with pride. I think it's also evident in an awful lot of people being, yeah, their reputation has been harmed by things that have come out. And it is hard. Some try and it works, but most of the time it doesn't work if they try to come back. And so, I just go back to Jesus saying that he is humble and that we should be humble like he is and so that'll probably save us a lot of trouble later if we walk in humility and not in pride.
[00:17:27] Tommy Thomas: The last one. I'm not called to be successful, but to be faithful. Mother Teresa.
[00:17:39] Judy Douglass: Yeah, I think I would agree with that. It's hard to say much more to that. I think, how are we faithful? We're faithful to become the people that we're made to be. We're not accidents. And if you look at Ephesians 2:10, it says he made each of them. In the Psalm 139, he says he made each one of us. He was there forming us.
So, it's no surprise that I'm not a rule follower. Maybe that wasn't one of his anyway. And it's no surprise that I don't have musical ability. But I can do words pretty well. And in Ephesians 2, he says, you are a work of art, a masterpiece designed for the good works that I've already prepared for you and so, God wants us to walk closely enough with him to discover those things, to be intentional, to discover them, and then to live them out. And do things I had to do, break an engagement, give up a dream, wait when I didn't want to wait, while God was doing work in me, and then he has to be faithful to what he's given us to do.
[00:18:59] Judy Douglass: That doesn't mean it won't change some because it will. But faithfulness is to be obedient and surrender to the Lord in a way that I can do what he wants me to do. And the outcomes are up to him. I'm not doing them to be known. I'm not doing them to get accolades. I'm doing them because this is the work of God, the good works that God has prepared for me to do.
And God loves faithful people. He loves others too.
[00:19:38] Tommy Thomas: If you could give a younger version of yourself, a piece of advice, what would it be?
[00:19:49] Judy Douglass: There's lots of little things, specifics, but I would say two words that have been key for me. One is to keep trusting God, even when hard things happen. Was I happy that my husband left two years ago? No. But I'm trusting that God knew what he was doing, that it was his time, and there were good reasons.
God did tell me, but I therefore was trusting that he would stay with me, which he said the night Steve died. I said, now what am I supposed to do? And God said, I'll be with you. I said, I know that, but what am I supposed to do? And he says, no, every step of the way, I will be with you. And He has. And then the other is the practice of giving thanks in everything has probably transformed me more than almost anything. Learning in the good things I can easily say thank you for, but in the hard things, little hard things, big hard things, confusion, misunderstandings, great pain. Thank you, Lord. Because I trust you and that's made all the difference for me.
[00:21:11] Tommy Thomas: What's the best piece of advice anybody ever gave you?
[00:21:20] Judy Douglass: Just what I said, that was advice that I got from people, and learning to live it out. It's more important, and some people wouldn't agree, but a lot of people in leadership are trained to be leaders. I was never trained to be a leader. I just did what God wanted, and that's how He led me. So, for me, it has everything to do with my relationship with God. I let Him meet my needs and work in me. Give me comfort, give me courage, depending on what the need is. And yeah, the best advice I have is, oh, I'll tell you what the best advice is. This is one of Steve's famous ones. You want to know what God's plan for you is and what your job description is. Walk closely with God and do what He says.
If you want to know God’s plan for you, Steve would always say “Walk closely with God and do what He says”.
[00:22:22] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes at our website: www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast.
If there are topics you'd like for me to explore, my email address is [email protected]. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search - What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
When You Love a Prodigal: 90 Days of Grace for the Wilderness by Judy Douglas
Prayer for Prodigals Podcast
Prayer for Prodigals Facebook Page
Secrets of Success: God’s Lifelines by Judy Douglas
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[00:00:24] Judy Douglass: Two people who've had the most impact on me. One would be Bill Bright because when I did the magazine, all of a sudden I was reporting to him and some other people as well because he didn't have time to really supervise and so those were sometimes tense times. Bill and I have one huge difference. Bill loves superlatives. Everybody was the greatest or the most talented or the best and that's the way he talked. I'm a journalist. Don't even believe superlatives are acceptable words, because nobody is the best or the greatest or anything.
And so Bill would write these flowery promoting things and I would get it and bring it back to what I thought was realism. And he would come back, and he'd say, no, you need to… And I would put a little bit more back, but not all of it, and we would go about five rounds before I didn't go back to him anymore.
I just decided we'd gotten it as far as I was willing to go and as much as he really needed. But that was challenging because we didn't always agree on things and yet he was always kind and gracious to me and positive and encouraging. But more than anything, he was trusting God.
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[00:01:53] Tommy Thomas: My guest today is Judy Douglass, a prominent figure within Cru, formerly known as Campus Crusade for Christ.
Throughout her career, she has held various roles within Cru and has become well known for her leadership and speaking. She served in positions such as staff member, mentor, and advocate for women in leadership within the organization. In addition to her work with Cru, Judy is a prolific writer, addressing topics related to faith, leadership, and personal growth.
These writings offer practical guidance, encouragement, and hope to individuals navigating various challenges in life, particularly in the context of family relationships and spiritual journeys. Judy, welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership.
[00:02:38] Judy Douglass: Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm looking forward to it.
[00:02:41] Tommy Thomas: I've been looking forward to this. I was thinking back, I guess the first time I met you was probably ‘73 or ‘74. That was, before the turn of the century, huh?
[00:02:51] Judy Douglass: Definitely before the turn of the century. Yes, I was on staff then too.
[00:02:57] Tommy Thomas: I want to learn a little bit about your childhood. I know when I listen to a podcast and they start asking people those questions my ears perk up. So maybe take me back. What was it like growing up in your hometown and your family?
[00:03:11] Judy Douglass: It was like it is for most people who grow up in Texas.
[00:03:16] Tommy Thomas: Hot?
[00:03:16] Judy Douglass: Opinionated. My family helped settle the State of Texas on both my mother's and my father's side.
My mother's side, they came with Stephen F. Austin when he settled down near San Antonio. And on my father's side, it was after the war. And they moved to Dallas, which was just beginning to become a city. And so, I'm very Texan through and through, though I haven't lived there in a very long time, but my family is still there.
[00:03:49] Judy Douglass: I have three sisters, and we are still alive, and we get together every year or year and a half. When my mother died, we all agreed if we weren't intentional, we wouldn't see each other. So, we became intentional, and we do that. My father was a doctor. My mother had been a nurse, basically.
There was this expectation that you can do anything, you'll be supported and encouraged, and that was true.
[00:04:23] Tommy Thomas: So, what did you want to be when you grew up coming out of a medical family?
[00:04:33] Judy Douglass: I really don't like anything medical very much. From the time I was eight years old, I wanted to be a writer. I started a novel when I was eight and it was about my favorite topic, horses. And so, I loved horses, and I loved writing and they started to go together at a young age. I still have the manuscript of the chapter I wrote of my only novel ever.
[00:04:59] Tommy Thomas: What was high school like for you? Did that manifest itself in high school? Those two loves?
[00:05:05] Judy Douglass: They did. My high school was a very high-level school. And so, there were lots of smart kids. I didn't care for the social structure, but I loved the fact that I got a great education.
Probably my biggest opportunity came when I studied journalism for a year, and the journalism teacher saw real hope in me, I think. And so, she encouraged me to work on the school paper, and she did things like she took an article I'd written for the paper and sent it into the Texas High School Press Association writing contest, and it was a feature, and I won for the whole state of Texas.
[00:05:57] Judy Douglass: I didn't even know I was entered, but that was encouraging that I could do that, and that she thought I had enough potential that she would enter that for me without even telling me. So that was really a good thing. The horses, I had this, my father wasn't about to buy me a horse. He refused many times since I asked him many times, but he had a doctor, friend, with a horse and no one to ride it.
And so they got together and I got a horse and I rode that horse for a number of years. At first, just fun with my friends, but then he said, she's a saddle horse. She's really a good horse. So, he wanted her trained. So, we went over to the training state of stable where I learned to write English and do some jumping and learned all the more proper things than just enjoying riding a horse.
[00:06:53] Judy Douglass: And so that was maybe one of the happiest days of my life when my father says, I have a horse for you. It was a great experience, and I loved it and it paid off later.
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[00:07:05] Tommy Thomas: My next question was going to be, what are people always surprised to find out about you? But what I would imagine, I certainly didn't know the horse story. Is there anything else that people might be surprised to know that might know you or would call you a friend? What might they not know?
[00:07:21] Judy Douglass: Probably a couple of things that would surprise them because I'm very much a strong advocate for what I care about. They might not know that I'm really a soft-hearted pushover and I'm interested in making sure people thrive than even making sure things happen the way I want.
And the other thing that always seems to surprise them, not anyone in my family, but them, is I'm not a rule follower very well. I know rules are needed. And I know it is required, but basically when I see rules, I look at what's their objective and then it's how can I fulfill that objective, maybe keeping the rules and maybe not.
[00:08:09] Tommy Thomas: So, you've served a long time with Cru. Anytime I interview somebody that's been with an organization a long time, I ask them when you joined, did you think it would be a career?
[00:08:21] Judy Douglass: It didn't surprise me, but because my parents were not happy that I was joining Campus Crusade for Christ, I said, it's just a two-year commitment because that's all we were signing up for.
But in my mind, it probably was longer, but I sure didn't know it was going to be the 60 years that I've been part of the Cru staff.
[00:08:44] Tommy Thomas: Oh, so when I met you, I think you were managing one of our magazines. And I suppose you had a staff reporting to you. What do you remember about that first management experience?
[00:08:56] Judy Douglass: Oh, my goodness. I remember, one, that I was over my head, because what happened was, I went out there and I was planning to go on campus. When I decided to join the staff, I had to give up two important things. I was engaged to a young man I'd gone with all through college. And he wasn't interested at all in being a part of Cru.
And, I said, Lord, when are you going to tell him? And God said, if you marry him, you won't be able to do what I want you to do. And, okay, that was something I wanted. I told the Lord when I met him that I would choose your way. And so that, I choose your way, was my pattern through life.
[00:09:42] Judy Douglass: And, so I said, okay. But I was also giving up my dream to become a writer and to maybe eventually be a magazine editor. But when I got to the staff conference, Bill Bright called me into his office and he said, we have this magazine we started to use on the campuses, to help staff talk to students about topics.
We wondered if instead of going to one campus, you would come to headquarters and do this magazine for all the campuses. And I'm like, what? Yes. So, God gave me my dream back just right away. The other one came later.
[00:10:27] Tommy Thomas: Was that the Collegiate, I'm trying to think, was that the Collegiate Challenge?
[00:10:31] Judy Douglass: That was the Collegiate Challenge. And I did that for several years with the whole editorial staff and then their man named Robert was the designer and he was far more knowledgeable than I was. And what was interesting was that we and Campus Life Magazine from Youth for Christ at the same time, we're looking at most Christian magazines, which were tiny print little pictures.
Yeah. Just not even readable. And not certainly enticing. And I said, we got to do something. And Bob was really creative. And we ended up making a magazine that when we took it to the Evangelical Press Association convention and entered their contest, we won Periodical of The Year of all the categories, because they'd never seen a magazine like it.
[00:11:27] Judy Douglass: And it was full of color, and it was stories, and it was just a totally different thing, but that was that then we decided to start what became the Worldwide Challenge because we realized that staff were having a hard time convincing their parents that they should join this organization that parent’s thought was a cult and also help people, donors and those parents and anyone else understand what it meant to know and walk with God.
And the things we were teaching the students, lay people by then, we wanted others to hear. And so, we said, and this is one of the biggest things, hardest things I ever did was we said, okay, we'll do this magazine. Basically, I was the editor, and we had about six journalism school graduates.
[00:12:23] Judy Douglass: We were not very old and not even very old in the Lord. Not really strong. We had no knowledge of what went on in the churches out there. And so, we're going to do a magazine that's going to represent our ministry. And we were really over our heads, but God was so good. We had no subscribers.
We went to our staff and talked them into giving it to their donors. And so we had to start it off. We had 35,000 subscribers because the staff did that. Our theme for our campaign was tell your supporters you love them 12 times a year. And so it was unbelievably wonderful. God gave us wisdom on how to put together a team and I just marveled at what we were able to do and how God used it in people's lives.
[00:13:18] Judy Douglass: And it only ended recently because of the cost of postage and the use of net and that there were other ways to communicate, but when I look back at my years on staff, that's one of my main highlights is getting to start the worldwide challenge and see it touch so many lives.
[00:13:40] Tommy Thomas: Now was my friend Chuck McDonald on your team? He and I joined the staff about the same time.
[00:13:46] Judy Douglass: Chuck McDonald was on my team.
[00:13:48] Tommy Thomas: And he was a University of Missouri J School graduate, if I remember.
[00:13:53] Judy Douglass: Which at that time was considered the best.
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[00:13:55] Tommy Thomas: So, let's go to mentors. Someone in your life who has brought you along on this journey.
The two people who had the greatest impact on my life were Bill Bright and Steve Douglass
[00:14:06] Judy Douglass: Two people who've had the most impact on me. One would be Bill Bright because when I did the magazine all of a sudden I was reporting to him and some other people as well because he didn't have time to really supervise, but I did a lot of work with him planning the magazine, editing the magazine, helping him write books, helping him write the first five transferable concepts.
And so those were sometimes tense times. Bill and I have one huge difference. Bill loves superlatives. Everybody was the greatest or the most talented or the best and that's the way he talked. I'm a journalist. Don't even believe superlatives are acceptable words, because nobody is the best or the greatest or anything.
[00:15:02] Judy Douglass: And so, Bill would write these flowery promoting things, and I would get it and bring it back to what I thought was realism. And he would come back, and he'd say, no, and I would put a little bit more back, but not all of it. And we would go about five rounds before I didn't go back to him anymore.
I just decided we'd gotten it as far as I was willing to go and as much as he really needed. But that was challenging because we didn't always agree on things and yet he was always kind and gracious to me and positive and encouraging. But more than anything, he was trusting God. I've known a lot of people who trusted God and I've read many but knew Bill very well.
[00:15:58] Judy Douglass: And he trusted God more than almost more than anyone I'd ever seen. And that was a huge thing in teaching me to walk with God on a consistent basis and believe that he would lead me and give me what I needed before me. So, he was probably at that time the biggest influence spiritually in my life, the biggest mentor.
The other person I would mention is Steve Douglas. Steve and I dated for five years before we got married. But we were friends and then we were dating, and it was a long time. Sometimes everybody said, give up on him. And I said, yeah. And, so I said, Lord, I'm done.
[00:16:48] Judy Douglass: And the Lord said, no, wait, don’t give up. Don't quit. And so, it took five years before Steve came to a census. But the point I want to make is he was concerned that his parents had not had a good marriage. His father was an alcoholic, and he just was afraid he had too much of his father in him, which, not true, really, except for smart.
He was afraid he wouldn't be a good husband as opposed to being so afraid of marriage. And he loved me. And so, from him, I learned a lot of principles of managing and leading because that's what he did. He went to Harvard. And then he came to Cru to reorganize it, which I didn't appreciate.
[00:17:36] Judy Douglass: I had to move out of the president's office. But he spiritually just loved the Lord and sought him and wanted what God had for him. And then we were married for 47 years until God took him home two years ago. So just watching him live his life, lead the ministry in the 20 years he served as President.
And I just learned how to work with people. He was maybe the kindest person I'd ever met. Just always responsive to people. Responsive to those who worked for him lifting them up. One of the girls that traveled with me, we were on a trip together with Steve and his assistant and we were coming home from a long international trip.
And so we're all tired and she's dropping us off at our house and he says, what can I pray for you? And she says, oh, I've got a chair that's falling apart and I just need somebody to help me put it together, so pray for that.
[00:18:47] Judy Douglass: He's knocking on her door with his tools in his hand and he fixed her chair and she's never forgotten it. The president, tired from a long trip, hurt her knee and went to meet it. And that would be what he was like. He was amazing with our children. He coached soccer for our older daughter for 12 years, I think maybe it was only 11, but because he wanted to be with her. Because he's naturally a coach, by the way, I've always thought if he weren't leading this ministry, he would be a coach somewhere. Also, he loved the girls that were on the soccer team. Before every game, he called each one to tell her what she would be expecting to do the next day, and his confidence that she would do a good job.
[00:19:38] Judy Douglass: And he also did it so he could have opportunities to tell people about Jesus. And, he was very intentional. I'll tell you one other thing he did. I'm nice to people. I really am, but I don't go out of my way all the time. And so in our neighborhood, he would go walk in the morning and to get exercise. He'd listen to scripture on the way out and then he would pray on the way back. He would look for opportunities to meet the neighbors and talk to them. And for several years, until his body was really not working as well, he picked up trash in our neighborhood and the whole neighborhood knew what he did.
[00:20:27] Judy Douglass: They didn't know who he was necessarily, but they knew, oh, he's the man who picks up the trash. I have great pictures of him. So, he's seeing, cause it's usually still dark and his pictures, his paper wrapper and a thing that holds three paper, plastic bags. So, he can put the trash in it.
[00:20:49] Tommy Thomas: Wow.
[00:20:49] Judy Douglass: It was amazing. I learned a lot from both of those two men. There were others, but you asked for the most.
[00:20:56] Tommy Thomas: You've probably already answered this question, but maybe not - relative to team leadership, what's the most ambitious project you've ever undertaken? And how did you get your team to rally around it?
[00:21:11] Judy Douglass: Two. Okay. One was starting the Worldwide Challenge. And I already basically explained, none of us really were equipped to do that job. They entered into it, and we learned and grew together, and the exciting thing is I can name one thing after another that those people are now doing so that they learned well, I learned well, we all worked together, the magazine benefited staff and their donors, and their parents and it was amazing and I am grateful.
The biggest thing that I ever did was the Global Women's Leadership Forum. No, actually, the biggest thing that I did was adopt a boy, but that's another story. The Global Women's Leadership Forum, because I'd always been able to do things that I thought I could do, and others apparently thought I could.
[00:22:13] Judy Douglass: I looked around a lot and noticed that again, I didn't come from an evangelical Christian background, so I didn't know any of the rules. I just saw, where are the women leading? And so, I just had it that I should see what I could do about it. I first did study and learn some things and when Steve became the U.S. Director, I suddenly had a little more beyond the magazine that was different, and I wasn't doing the magazine because I had two children by then and so I started writing to all of our mothers, encouraging them that God could still use them, even if they've got 5 children at home.
[00:23:06] Judy Douglass: There were ways that the ministry could benefit from what they had to offer. And so, I wrote a book called What Can a Mother Do? And it's finding significance at home and beyond. It's still mostly a really good book, things have changed, but as my kids got older and I had a team of people, I didn't have to work all the time.
They did a lot of the work, but I began to know a lot of the other women on the field and all of the women in any leadership were called senior women, as opposed to a real title so I just got to know some and grew and studied and got bold. And when Steve became President, he was willing to stand behind me.
[00:23:57] Judy Douglass: And we said, we're going to have a global conference to bring together women who have shown potential to lead and help them get started at it. And we called it the global women's leadership forum. And in 2004, so we just celebrated 20 years since this happened. We brought about 400 staff women from all over the world together, for a week in Thailand.
And the criteria were potential for leadership or maybe even given some leadership opportunities, but it was not you send whoever the next director's wife unless she shows the potential and we brought them together and we started out and we said your leaders and they all last sticker.
[00:24:53] Judy Douglass: And we said no really and we're going to help you start. So, we did a week of training. Some of it was spiritual. We had a wonderful woman, who at 57 left the mission field with her husband and went to seminary and became a professor at Gordon Conwell. And so she came and did our devotions for us.
[00:25:14] Judy Douglass: And Andrea Buczynski, whom I know you've interviewed, was just appointed Global Director of Leadership Development. It took three years for me to convince my husband to tell the board that yes, she would be the Vice President of Global Leadership Development because that's what the previous person’s title was.
And we weren't nearly as tight and hard to get through as some places are. Anyway, we taught them important skills like leading and bringing a team together and helping people to evaluate themselves and their coworkers and see where they can grow. But we also taught them how to write and how to speak.
[00:26:03] Judy Douglass: Everything's just beginning. And how to raise funds, because in Cru, if you want to do stuff, and so they had a wonderful time. We had a fun time with them. They went and rode elephants and things like that. But it was incredible. And all of us, and this is true, I've heard it over and over, had this sense that they were in a holy place.
We walked around in this hotel in Chiang Mai, and we could sense God just smiling at his daughters who were believing that they could be more in the kingdom than they thought. And it took a long time to raise the money. I raised the money for it. And to pull together the team that could do it. And when it was almost, when we were just a few months out from doing it, most of the team that was planning it said, this is too big.
[00:27:01] Judy Douglass: This is too much. This is going to fail. And then we're going to be embarrassed and it's going to set us back, not move us. And so, the small group of us that were leading it went and talked and prayed and came back and said, God gave us this assignment and we have to do it. And nobody would object as it turned out.
It was wonderful that our Director in Switzerland had three women at the conference. They had quotas for their number of staff, and he wrote to me afterwards. He said, if you're going to do things that make anybody else like these three women are now, I'll send anybody because I've never seen such transformation in somebody.
[00:27:49] Judy Douglass: And so, it was just believing in them and then beginning to equip them. And then the last thing I'll mention is we said, and if you want to go back to your country or your ministry and begin to start something to train some more people, we have a group of us and various ones of us will come to you and do training. I think we did 40 training sessions in the next two years and right now we have maybe only three global vice presidents who are women, and very capable women. And so that's what drives me more than anything, is to see people become who God made them and do what God has for them. That vision is what guides me all the time.
(If you are reading the transcript, note that we will continue this conversation with Judy next week)
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search - What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
When You Love a Prodigal: 90 Days of Grace for the Wilderness by Judy Douglas
Secrets of Success: God’s Lifelines by Judy Douglas
Connect
[email protected]
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Listen to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify
[00:00:00] Vonna Laue: One of the indicators for nonprofits that anyone who hears me speak knows that I'm always going to harp on a little bit, and that is available cash. Not just cash, because you can look at the balance sheet and see, wow, we've got $700,000 in cash. If that's what the board looks at and starts making decisions based on, you could find yourself in trouble because the available cash that I'm talking about takes that cash number, but then it subtracts two things out of there.
[00:00:33] Vonna Laue: It subtracts the things that we're going to pay this week. So maybe we've got payroll coming up this week and we've got a bunch of accounts we're going to pay. I'm going to take that out of there. And I'm also going to take out any temporarily restricted funds that have been given by donors for a specific purpose.
If those amounts are held in that cash number, I'm going to back those out. If you back out those two things, that $700,000 might be $200,000. And that board and those leaders are going to make significantly different decisions based on $700,000 versus $200,000. Right? That's a financial metric.
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[00:01:10] Tommy Thomas: You and I have a mutual friend, Alec Hill, former President of InterVarsity. And he wrote of some of the pain and suffering he experienced while being the President of Intervarsity. And he writes, if we pause and reflect long enough, pain is a great teacher. Our character can be transformed more through a day of suffering than a month of study.
As I think about your book that's coming out here in a couple of weeks, I would imagine that played into the writing of the book.
[00:01:39] Vonna Laue: You are absolutely correct. So, the book is Glad I Didn't Know, and then it's subtitled Lessons Learned Through Life's Challenges and Unexpected Blessings, so it absolutely does play into that.
The premise of the book is that there are a lot of difficult things that we go through that if we'd known in advance, we would have done everything we could to avoid those, but if we had avoided those, we'd have missed out on what God had planned for us and the lessons that we learned as a result of it.
[00:02:12] Vonna Laue: The flip side of that is also the unexpected blessings. And when I look at things like serving on the World Vision Board, if someone had told me in advance, you're going to be on the World Vision Board. I'd have thought, okay, I need this education and I need this experience and I need to network with this person, and I'd have totally messed it up.
But I just faithfully follow one thing to the next. And so would totally agree with Alec there. And I'm glad I don't know a lot of the things that I'm going to go through. And each time we go through something, it makes it a little bit easier the next time to look back on the faithfulness of God and realize, okay, we're going to come out the other side of this and there will be blessings as a result of it, even though it's a challenge at the time.
[00:03:01] Tommy Thomas: What lesson did you learn from writing this book? A real practical question.
[00:03:07] Vonna Laue: Yeah. One of the things that just in the process that I learned initially, I had chapters for the whole book, and I was just going to write their life stories. And then in some discussions and some just careful consideration, I realized if I did that, it would be really easy for a reader to say, oh, that's nice for that person and dismiss it.
And the applicability that it had to their lives. And so, within the book, there are 16 other contributors that all contributed a story of their life that they were glad they didn't know. And so, the encouragement there and just the lesson was if we're willing to be honest with ourselves and honest with those around us, we've all got those stories and in sharing them, there is a blessing to be had both by the giver and the receiver.
[00:04:09] Vonna Laue: Tommy, I had a number of people that wrote chapters that when they submitted them said something like, I needed to do that. Or it was a blessing to me to go through this, and there were a few people that I had ideas of the stories that they would contribute because I knew specific things about their life.
But all of them, I just asked them to do a story. And many of the ones that I thought the story they would do was not the story. They actually contributed. And so fun to see, just how God's orchestrated that.
[00:04:45] Tommy Thomas: What's the most dangerous behavior trait that you've seen that can derail a leader's career?
[00:04:54] Vonna Laue: I'm going to look at, especially those who have been leading for a long time. A few years ago, I was pondering a few of the leaders that had not finished well. And, you get, I think you use the word distinguished when you introduced me and I translated that to experienced or old, one of the two, some length of time and so as I think about that, it really hit home.
Partially because of the people and the disappointment that I had in the situation, but partially because I realized I'm not in the first half of my career. And so, I want to make sure that I do what I can to finish well. And so back to your question. One of the things that really came out to me was the idea of having people speak truth into your life.
The more experience we gain in leadership, the scarcer it becomes to have people who will candidly share the truth with us. With time, leaders tend to surround themselves with fewer people who are ready to speak honestly and openly with them.
[00:05:51] Vonna Laue: And the longer we lead, the fewer people I find that leaders have around them that are willing to speak truth into them. We talk about being put on a pedestal. That can happen in a number of different ways. It doesn't mean we're famous. Doesn't mean we have all the glory that some of the people you would think of might have.
It can happen to any leader, but we rise up far enough in our career or our organization that we just don't have as many close confidants around us that will challenge us. That will speak truth. And I think that when that happens is when people are more likely to not finish well.
[00:06:38] Tommy Thomas: I'm sure. Ross Hoskins at One Hope, he says, surround yourself with people who know you better than yourself and will tell you the truth out of love. This is how we grow.
[00:06:49] Vonna Laue: Amen. He just perfectly summarized what I would agree with. Perfectly.
[00:06:57] Tommy Thomas: So, if you were going to write another book and this book was going to be about the burdens of leadership that only the president or the CEO can bear, what would be some of your chapter headings?
[00:07:10] Vonna Laue: Have to think about that one a little bit……Chapter headings?
[00:07:18] Tommy Thomas: Or topics that you think have to be talked about.
[00:07:22] Vonna Laue: Yep. I think the topics definitely are similar to what was just said, choosing people that are extremely accomplished to be around you. We talk about having smarter people than you. I'm a big fan of that. I would also say working in a team. We are not as good by ourselves as we are with a team around us.
And so, when you're looking at that key leadership position, you're only as good as the team that is around you. I think also you've got to have that personal and spiritual aspect to it. So encouraging leaders, I often find, and as I speak on personal leadership, when I'm at my busiest, the two things that are easiest for me to give up are my workout and my devotion time.
The two things I need most when I'm busiest are my workout and my devotion time
[00:08:19] Vonna Laue: The two things I need most when I'm busiest are my workout and my devotion time. And so reminding leaders that you're only as good as you are healthy. That’s really important and that's, in a number of different way,s that health spiritually that health physically and the health relationally, you know that you don't sacrifice those relationships that are closest to you because you don't get the time back.
We often say I'll do that when this project is over. I'll do that when this season is over. And I think all of the people listening to this podcast probably realize there is no normal, right? We used to say when things get back to normal, I'll do this. And that hectic life that we live as Americans, I think is just normal.
And so those are a few of the keys that I think are so crucial for leaders.
[00:09:18] Tommy Thomas: I remember when I interviewed Rich Stearns and I'm not going to remember the person's name, but he was talking about his career at Parker Brothers, and he said that there was one of the people in the family that didn't know anything at all about toys, but he knew how to hire a team and that was what made the success of Parker Brothers was this man's ability to bring people onto the team that could lead.
[00:09:41] Vonna Laue: I would fully agree with that. I mentioned that I usually am doing a lot of different things. So right now, I'm serving as the COO and CFO of an organization and director of internal audit for another one and doing some audit and advisory with a third and some projects, all of that. But the way that works is the teams that are established in each of those places.
Within the team, the mission’s organization where I serve, the director of global services role that I have, that's like the COO role, that has operations and finance and personnel and IT and security, that's a lot just in and of itself, but I have four phenomenal directors. That they need encouragement.
[00:10:31] Vonna Laue: They need a champion, and they need a sounding board. And as long as I can provide those things, they will do their roles far better than I ever could. In fact, I often say when you hire, you better keep them happy and keep them around because you probably can't do their job.
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[00:10:50] Tommy Thomas: If you were creating a dashboard to get at a nonprofit organization's health, what would be some of your dials?
[00:10:57] Vonna Laue: Oh, I love dashboards. You just spoke one of my love languages there. So, one of the things that I think is key to a dashboard is that I'm a CPA, so it has to have some financial indicators on it, right?
[00:11:11] Tommy Thomas: Absolutely.
[00:11:13] Vonna Laue: You have to have those. And the basic ones, you're going to have some things like where you are versus, actual.
And you're gonna do some trend analysis in that a little bit, I say, this way in a church. Everybody knows it's December. What season of the year is the lowest attendance and the lowest giving season? Always summer, right? And how do we know that? It's because of trends. And so, trend information can be really helpful. So, I think that a dashboard should include trends.
One of the indicators for nonprofits that anyone who hears me speak knows that I'm always going to harp on a little bit, and that is available cash.
[00:12:08] Vonna Laue: So not just cash, because you can look at the balance sheet and see, wow, we've got $700,000 cash. If that's what the board looks at and starts making decisions based on, you could find yourself in trouble because the available cash that I'm talking about takes that cash number, but then it subtracts two things out of there.
It subtracts the things that we're going to pay this week. So maybe we've got payroll coming up this week and we've got a bunch of accounts we're going to pay. I'm going to take that out of there. And I'm also going to take out any temporarily restricted funds that have been given by donors for a specific purpose.
[00:12:46] Vonna Laue: If those amounts are held in that cash number, I'm going to back those out. If you back out those two things, that $700,000 might be $200,000. And that board and those leaders are going to make significantly different decisions based on $700,000 versus $200,000. Right? That's a financial metric. But as far as dashboards as a whole, my real encouragement there is to look at what your key drivers are.
So, look at the financial pieces that you need to monitor, but also look at your non-financial and make sure that they are included in that dashboard as well. Maybe it's your turnover percentage.
Maybe it's your involvement in X program. How many meals are we feeding? How many beds have we provided depending on what your program is, but that dashboard report ought to tie to whatever your strategic plan is, so the strategic things that you're looking at. Those are the guideposts of that dashboard that you're going to be monitoring to make sure that your strategic plan is being fulfilled.
[00:14:00] Tommy Thomas: On a little bit lighter note, but still probably following the same track. If you were a judge on a non-profit version of the Shark Tank and people were coming to you for early-stage investments, what questions would you need solid answers to before you would open your checkbook?
[00:14:18] Vonna Laue: I'm always going to want to know what their budgeting process is. Again, you’re asking an accountant.
I want to understand that. I want to understand who they've vetted this with. What are the focus groups that you've talked to? Who are the mentors or coaches that have processed this with you? What are your strengths? And where you don't have strengths, who are the people that you have identified and already discussed with that are going to come around you to shore up those weaknesses, if you will.
So those are a few of the things that I want to make sure that this is well thought out and it's not just the flavor of the week.
[00:15:00] Tommy Thomas: Let's go to board service for a few minutes. So, you're now the chairman of the World Vision Board, or the chairperson, I guess I should say. Give us some highlights of what you've learned about the Chairman's role.
I know you watched Joan for several years and watched her successes, and I'm sure lack of on some days. What have you learned there?
[00:15:22] Vonna Laue: I will tell you, Tommy, when they asked me if I would consider taking the chair role, the first thing I said was, did you ask this individual? And I named someone from the Board, and they said, yes.
And he serves on a couple of large for-profit boards and doesn't have the time and capacity. And I said, okay, as long as you've shown the discernment that you asked him first, we're good. But then I actually went to that individual and I said, if I do this, will you coach me? Would you be willing to debrief with me after the meetings?
[00:16:01] Vonna Laue: And honestly, we just finished up meetings on Tuesday this week. And he and I have a call scheduled for Monday. And he said I'd love to do that. He graciously agreed. And so that, to me, was important. Because I didn't know the role. I had served on the board, but that role is different.
And so, the relationship between the Board Chair and the CEO is obviously the most critical. We have a pretty, no, we have a very sophisticated board. I'm odd by who God has assembled in that room. And so, when I first came into it, I would say I was just trying not to embarrass myself, but they are such a gracious group of people.
"To run an effective Board Meeting, I review agendas and pre-reads in advance, addressing my questions beforehand so meeting time is focused on others' concerns."
[00:16:51] Vonna Laue: And it's important to me that the meetings are well run. And that means I want to see the agendas in advance and speak into those. I want to see the pre reads in advance and have gone through all of those so that if I have questions, I can answer them. I'm not asking those questions during the meeting that's reserved for others, and that those may be questions that others would have.
So, let's get those addressed in the pre reads or be prepared. So, I think that the preparation that goes into the time before the meetings is critical.
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[00:17:26] Tommy Thomas: So, here's a couple of quotes about boards and board chairs. And one is the Chair and the CEO must learn to dance together. And neither can stray very far from each other's gaze or proceed independently.
[00:17:42] Vonna Laue: Yeah, I would agree with that. Those are two key roles in the organization. And you have to, I'll use the same analogy I used before. You better be pulling in the same direction. The Board Chair has a responsibility to be the voice on behalf of the Board, and so I feel like that's an important responsibility that it's not Vonna's opinion that I take into there.
I seek wise counsel from my board and want to make sure that when I'm having conversations with my CEO, that either the board is informed about those things or that, I'm able to speak on their behalf. But on the day-to-day interactions, if you will, or week to week, those two leaders better be aligned.
[00:18:30] Tommy Thomas: Another one, Dr. Rebecca Basinger. Governing boards are charged with safeguarding an institution's ability to fulfill its mission with economic vitality. To this I add, responsibility for tending to the soul of the institution.
[00:18:50] Vonna Laue: In an institution like World Vision, the soul of that organization to me is very critical. And it's interesting. I chair the World Vision U. S. Board. I have the privilege of also sitting on the World Vision International Board because we are a federated model and there are World Vision offices around the world and Christ at the center is one of them. It's our foremost principle by which we operate. And, if that's not lived out in the board, the tone at the top is critical for everything. And so, I would agree that the soul of the organization starts with tone at the top.
[00:19:32] Tommy Thomas: So, it's been my experience that the good news about having successful executives on the board is they're used to getting things done.
The flip side is that they might have a hard time taking off their CEO hat and putting on their board member hat at a board meeting. Have you experienced that?
[00:19:53] Vonna Laue: To the credit of the current board that I have at World Vision US, I would say I don't struggle with that there.
There is a spirit of collaboration by God's grace that exists within there. And so, people are willing to share their experiences and their opinions, but they're not sold on them. They're very open. Have I experienced it in other boards? Absolutely. And one of the challenges that I see in the nonprofit sector, Tommy, is that there are experienced board members that come in with for profit expertise.
[00:20:32] Vonna Laue: Which, 90 percent of the time, is fantastic. 10 percent of the time can be challenging because there are unique things. I say if you don't believe there are uniquenesses, go ask the local Ford dealership how many contributions they've received this month. You know what I mean? They don't get any of those, right.
There are some unique things. There are some unique laws and regulations that either do apply specifically or specifically don't apply. And so in some board settings, I've seen where for profit leaders have a hard time taking off that hat and being able to understand the nuances that are involved in a nonprofit organization, but really, it comes down to the spirit of humility and service.
[00:21:21] Vonna Laue: And one of the things that when you contacted me first, I believe that you couched it this way and said, would you be willing to be considered for board service at World Vision? And I tell people that I responded to you, I'm willing to be considered, let me pray about it. And that I said, that's not trying to buy time or push you off. I legitimately meant that because I think that you have to be passionate about a ministry or a nonprofit board that you're going to serve on. And if you don't have that passion for that particular organization, then you find another one that you can be, because I think that passion is really important in the boardroom.
[00:22:07] Tommy Thomas: You and I are old enough to remember the Enron crisis and of course much has been written about it.
One writer said that certainly part of the problem was that the board didn't dig deep enough into the financial situation at Enron. How do you ensure that your board members are asking the right questions? Of course, you've been a CPA, that might be an easier thing than another board chair, but I think that is critical.
[00:22:35] Vonna Laue: It is, and there are so many things that we have to balance in board member selection. We want to balance Equity and Diversity. We want to balance, within that age. I just encouraged us earlier to consider younger board members and what they can contribute. One of the considerations is what is the expertise that they bring to the board and what skill sets do we need on the board?
And the reason for that is to ask those right questions. If I've got an audit committee and I don't have anyone that understands audit and finance, that's problematic. And there may be some that just said, of course I can tell you I have presented to a number of audit and finance committees in my career.
[00:23:27] Vonna Laue: That they didn't have an auditor finance expert in that entire committee. In this day and age, we're looking at who has digital experience, who has cybersecurity, or IT experience, and it changes over time. The needs of the board today are different from the needs of the board 10 or 20 years ago.
So that's a challenge to us individually as board members to continue growing and learning. But it's also a challenge to us to make sure that we're recruiting the right board members. So, to your point, you've got people in there that can ask the questions of, is this a good investment? Is there a legal liability associated with this?
[00:24:10] Vonna Laue: Have we got the right protections in place? What's the end result of this potentially going to be? We don't make a short-sighted decision that we're looking at the long-term impact. What are the reputational impacts of these? We have two roles on the World Vision U. S. board that are assigned at every board meeting.
And one of those is the keeper of the core documents. So that person is responsible throughout the discussions to be considering how that discussion or that particular agenda item is tied to our core documents, if there's any implications, and one of them is the responsible skeptic, and that is a formal role that person is assigned in those board meetings, and as we're having discussion, we want somebody to be identified that will challenge and say, wait a minute, back up.
[00:25:01] Vonna Laue: Let's not get into group think here. What about, and that they know that they're not just putting their opinion in their hat that they've got this particular role. So, I think those two roles have been really helpful in our setting for our board.
[00:25:15] Tommy Thomas: I spoke to Dr. Linda Livingstone at Baylor. I was asking her about this. I didn't use the word responsible skeptic. I guess I had another phrase, but she said, they usually show up. You don't have to appoint them.
[00:25:28] Vonna Laue: I heard that. I heard it when she said that. And I laughed and I thought, that's a healthy board actually, for the most part, because Proverbs talks about iron sharpens iron, and that is really helpful if people are willing to speak up. Oftentimes, we’re Christian nice and we don't want to challenge each other and we need to be able to speak up and make sure that all of the facts, all of the considerations are on the table.
[00:25:58] Tommy Thomas: I sense that probably the role or the function of risk management has increased for a board over the last decade or two. Am I making a good observation or not?
[00:26:13] Vonna Laue: The only thing I would say is that might be the understatement of the year, potentially. Absolutely. The risks that we face and maybe I'm going to oversimplify this, but I think, they used to be known, right?
You've got trip hazards. That's a physical risk. You've got the risk of fraud. You put controls in place. Those were known risks. What we face now, to me, are a lot of the unknown risks. What's happening in the cyber world? What’s happening with opinions? Reputational risk has increased so significantly, and because it's so easy, and I'll be careful to say this is Vonna's opinion, so please don't ascribe this to any organization that I represent, but, because it's so easy on social media and other media, avenues to state an opinion, and it becomes a perceived fact.
[00:27:12] Vonna Laue: Thank you. And for an organization to then have to battle something, that’s a reputational risk that we have to consider. And yet we can't control, which is a difficult place to be.
[00:27:26] Tommy Thomas: Do y'all have a time in each board meeting where you talk about external threats or is that relegated to your CEO to bring those to the board? How does that work?
[00:27:38] Vonna Laue: Practically? Many of the organizations that I'm associated with have an enterprise risk management or a risk assessment process, and there are people within the organization that are specifically identified that are responsible for that. Not that they're responsible for the risks, but they're responsible to make sure that it's updated.
The way that I tend to do it with some organizations is, brainstorm across the organization, pulling together leaders from the board. Leaders from different ministries or departments, people in different functional departments, IT, HR, finance, and just let them brainstorm. What are all the risks?
[00:28:23] Vonna Laue: I've done this a few times and it's pretty common that you end up with 600-700 risks that are identified and then categorizing those into whatever categories are helpful for you. But things like regulatory, legal, physical, financial, reputational, operational risks. And then once you do that, you can identify what's the likelihood this would happen.
And if it did happen, what would the impact be? So low, moderate and high. And that helps you distinguish, like, how significant are these risks? And when you've got them categorized like that, it stands out, like who the owner of that is, right? Those legal risks are either an in-house or an outsourced general counsel, your physical risks might be the facilities people, whoever, but having an owner for those.
High and moderate risks should be mitigated through measures such as insurance, internal controls, or policies. High risks, in particular, should be continuously monitored by leaders and the board, to ensure they are well understood and managed effectively.
[00:29:16] Vonna Laue: The high and moderate risks ought to have some mitigating measures in place, whether it's insurance or internal controls or policies. And to me, the high risks should always be in front of the leaders and the board. Usually that's an annual process that they would be taking a look at that to make sure that we understand these risks.
We're aware of them because we're responsible for them and we also are aware of the mitigating controls that management has put in place and those seem reasonable. So, I don't necessarily feel like at every meeting, sometimes there are committees. World Vision International, I serve on the audit and risk committee.
[00:29:59] Vonna Laue: We have it as a specific component of that committee. So every one of our committee meetings, there is a risk component to that we are looking at. But definitely on an annual basis, that ought to be a discussion that boards are having regardless of the size of the organization.
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[00:30:15] Tommy Thomas: This could probably be a whole podcast, but maybe we'll probably limit it. But I would be remiss if I didn't ask an artificial intelligence question. I guess that could fall under risk. It could fall under opportunity. Your thoughts as you sit at 50,000 feet looking down on the nonprofit sector, what's going to happen in the coming years that we need to be aware of?
[00:30:41] Vonna Laue: I think it's all of the above. It's opportunity. It's risk. I mentioned earlier that boards are encountering different things now than they did 10 years ago, and they have to be learning individually. And as a board, this is a perfect example of that. We, as board members, have to be learning.
We have to adjust to and understand this new technology. Actually, our board had the privilege of sitting in an hour-long session this past week with an AI expert. I think we all walked out of there a little terrified and a little concerned about what this looks like. And that's a great place to be, right?
[00:31:25] Vonna Laue: Because it means we know that we've got to lean in. I remember a number of years ago, I think it was about 2006, Walt Wilson, who started Global Media Outreach, he had been one of the initial executives at Apple, and I remember sitting with Walt at that time, and he said, the day will come where you just use apps for everything.
And I was like, what's an app? And he's like oh, you'll just push a button. And then it'll bring up all the information for that company. And you'll do everything on this app. And I don't know Walt's age exactly, but I would say he was probably in his early seventies at that time. And I was like, that's crazy.
[00:32:10] Vonna Laue: And then I realized, now, he was absolutely correct. And he had the foresight to see that. And I tend to believe that's where we will be with AI. This is here. We better figure out how to harness it. We better figure out how to use it well. Organizations are just starting to formulate AI policies, what they will allow, what they won't allow.
I fully believe that we'll look back on those initial policies five years from now and laugh at ourselves. But we’ve got to start somewhere and the ability that it will give us and the doors that it opens. I don't think we should be scared of it. But I think that we have a responsibility to do it.
Worry less about being supplanted by a chatbot and more about being outpaced by someone adept at using AI to drive corporate success.
[00:32:51] Tommy Thomas: I read an article recently and the guy was talking and he said people shouldn't be worried about being replaced by a chat box or something. They should be more worried about being replaced by somebody who knows how to use artificial intelligence to the advantage of the corporation.
[00:33:09] Vonna Laue: Oh, I think that's a great line because the functions that it will be able to take the place of you probably don't need to worry about those, but yeah, the technology that goes along with it, make sure that you're one that knows that.
And I'm getting articles from fellow board members on a pretty consistent basis. Some of our staff liaisons in the organizations I serve, there is a lot of information that's out there and I would just encourage any of the board members don't be overwhelmed by it. We all have other responsibilities, right?
[00:33:46] Vonna Laue: None of us are going to go get a PhD in AI. But as we start to gain an awareness, I think we'll understand better what our responsibility might be as board members.
[00:33:59] Tommy Thomas: Let's try to bring this thing to a close. I've taken probably more of your time than you had allocated for me today and I'm grateful. If you could get a do over in life, what would that be?
[00:34:12] Vonna Laue: I mentioned earlier, there were probably a couple of meetings, partner meetings that I wish had gone differently. Quite honestly, Tommy, that's the only do over I might take, but I am very thankful to have lived my life without regrets. And that, to your point about failures and everything else, there’s value to be had in the experiences that we have encountered, and to lose out on those.
I'd probably just mess something else up. So, I think maybe I'll keep the ones that I have.
[00:34:50] Tommy Thomas: Do you have an “I wish I had started this earlier moment in your life?”
[00:34:57] Vonna Laue: Oh, I would say the one that I've done often on, that I wish that I was more consistent about, is just memorizing scripture. So I know a lot of people that are good at that. I have gone back to that, incorporating that on a daily basis. And if that's where the foundation of my decision making is coming from, I wish that I had a little bit more of that ingrained.
[00:35:25] Tommy Thomas: Final question. If you could give a younger version of yourself a piece of advice, what would it be?
[00:35:32] Vonna Laue: I learned this a little bit later. It wasn't too late in life, but one of the most important leadership principles that I feel like I've learned over the years, I'd love to just close with for your group, for your audience. And I think it applies that I would have wanted to know this.
As soon as I could, and that is when we have a person in a position that they're not succeeding in, we often in the Christian ministry world feel like we're Christians, we can't let somebody go and I believe that when God calls us to something, he doesn't call us to be miserable or ill equipped for it.
[00:36:18] Vonna Laue: And so, when we keep somebody in a position that they are not competent or capable of, we're doing a disservice to them. To two people in two organizations, at least we're doing a disservice to that person because we're keeping them where they can't thrive. And it's very hard to make a change. When I stepped away from the managing partner role, that was incredibly difficult.
Most of us don't like change. And so even if we're not happy, and fulfilled in a position, it's still comfortable. So, we're doing a disservice to them. We're doing a disservice to our organization because we don't have the right person in the job. We're doing a disservice to whoever ought to be in that position because we haven't opened it up for them to be there.
[00:37:03] Vonna Laue: And we're doing a disservice to whatever organization this person is supposed to work for because we haven't released them to go do that. And so I guess I'd come full circle with something I said earlier, and that is people are the key to what we do, throughout life, in personal matters and professional matters.
And so, stewarding the people in our life well is something that I think we all need to do. And it would have been great if I'd have learned that earlier on as well.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search - What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Glad I Didn’t Know: Lessons Learned Through Life’s Challenges and Unexpected Blessings
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[00:00:00] Vonna Laue: I started working when I was 13 at Dairy Queen. And if you work at a fast food restaurant, at least at that time, more than six or nine months, you're in a leadership position and you've got a crew that works with you.
So I had that opportunity. And one of the biggest things looking back on it, and I didn't actually realize that until our girls got involved, but 4H was huge in my life. And at the time it was fun. I used to horse show and did a lot of the competitions at the county and state level.
But when I then took our daughter to a 4H meeting and realized, wow, this is where I learned a lot of my leadership skills. They operate with Robert's rules of order and the kids run the meetings and they're elected to positions. And so I had that opportunity at a really young age.
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[00:00:55] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Vonna Laue. Vonna is a distinguished leader in the nonprofit sector, particularly known for her extensive work with churches and ministries. Early in her career, she served as a partner for a national CPA firm specializing in audit, tax, and advisory services for the nonprofit sector.
She later took on the role as Executive Vice President at the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability, where she focused on enhancing trust within the church and ministry communities. Her experience is widely recognized. She has authored multiple articles, co-authored three books, frequently speaks at national and regional conferences, and in 2010, she was inducted into the Church Management Hall of Fame, underscoring her significant contributions to the field.
[00:01:45] Tommy Thomas: Vonna, Welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership.
[00:01:48] Vonna Laue: Tommy, thanks for having me. It's great to be here.
[00:01:50] Tommy Thomas: I've been looking forward to this for a long time. I first met you; I don't know how many years ago it was, but, Rich Stearns, the then President of World Vision had asked me to help him find some board members.
[00:02:02] Tommy Thomas: He gave me some parameters and you were the one of the ones that identified. So, I guess that was our first encounter.
[00:02:12] Vonna Laue: It was and that was 2016.
[00:02:14] Tommy Thomas: In the words of Crosby, Stills, Nash Young, so much water has passed underneath the bridge since then.
[00:02:24] Vonna Laue: Amen to that.
[00:02:26] Tommy Thomas: Let's give us a few start up questions. I'm always curious, and I don't know these things about you. Before we get too deep into your professional career, take me into your childhood. What was childhood like?
[00:02:39] Vonna Laue: I always enjoy telling people that think about birth order, that I'm a fairly complicated person because I was an only child and that automatically raises some red flags for some people.
[00:02:53] Vonna Laue: And then when I was eight, my parents divorced and both remarried within about a one-year timeframe, and I became a middle child in two families. So, if you're gonna play the birth order game, I'm gonna give you a lot of information to mull over in that.
[00:03:09] Tommy Thomas: Where was your childhood geographically?
[00:03:13] Vonna Laue: Absolutely. I grew up in South Dakota, which is one of the smallest populated states in the country. There were two stop lights in the town my mom was in and one stop light in the town my dad was in. We may get into it more, but I had the privilege of going to a Christian school. And so, I tell people there were three in my graduating high school class.
It was a definitely small-town America, and everyone knew what you were doing pretty much all the time.
[00:03:46] Tommy Thomas: Now we've heard these stories; Even my parents who were raised in Alabama and Georgia, they didn't have the snow part, but they had the part about walking to school five to six miles a day uphill.
In South Dakota, did you have to walk to school in the snow several miles a day?
[00:04:03] Vonna Laue: I walked to the bus stop, and because I went to a Christian school, we wore skirts and dresses every day. And it didn't matter if it was 20 above or 20 below. And they also didn't have snow days when I was a kid.
You went to school unless it was absolutely catastrophic. So yeah, I walked to the bus stop in the snow, in a skirt, many times, every winter.
[00:04:30] Tommy Thomas: Thinking back, what was the greatest gift you think your parents gave to you?
[00:04:36] Vonna Laue: Actually, it was that very thing of education. When my parents, even when they were still married and we were living in a small town, they wanted me to get an education.
And the best way to do that in their mind was through the local Christian school. And so, while my parents were in a mainline denomination and didn't have a relationship with Christ, that's where I went to school. And those three years and the education and the relationships that the Lord gave me there were critical for me.
[00:05:09] Vonna Laue: And then when life changed drastically and over the next four years, we moved multiple times and were in different education settings. I kept begging to go back to a Christian school. And so ultimately my seventh-grade year was able to do that, in a different Christian school. And again, they agreed to that because of the education that they felt like I would receive there, but it was through that I came to Christ.
So, I'm a big proponent of Christian education. And subsequently, my parents, grandparents came to Christ. They didn’t know it at the time, they weren't doing it for that reason, but that was by far the biggest gift they gave me.
[00:05:50] Tommy Thomas: You turned out at least initially as a CPA, was that a dream from high school?
[00:05:57] Vonna Laue: It wasn't. I don't remember, sometimes there are people that remember what they wanted to do in elementary school and that's what they did. We sponsored cadets at the Air Force Academy, and one of those wanted to be a fighter pilot from the time he was five years old, had every plane hanging in his room and to this day he is a fighter pilot.
That wasn't me. I didn't have that idea when I was little. When I got into middle school, I was volunteering at a hospital and thought I'd go into nursing and then wasn't really wild about nursing. And so, when I initially started taking college classes, I thought that I would major in chemistry and physics.
[00:06:37] Vonna Laue: And had a semester that I was able to go to Bible college in Minnesota and wanted to take that opportunity. I knew that I couldn't finish there, but wanted to go and take some foundational courses and take things that would transfer back to a state university in South Dakota. And when I went, one of the classes that I took was an accounting class.
And I took that class and I thought, this is easy. And then I looked around and realized, not everybody in this class thinks this is easy. Maybe there's something to that. And so, it was then, and I to this day wish that I had gone back to that professor, and just let him know the way that changed the course of my career.
[00:07:23] Tommy Thomas: Gosh, I remember my two accounting courses in graduate school. I couldn't say that they were easy. Probably the first one was easier. We were taught our first accounting course by the CFO of Coca Cola Bottling Company in Birmingham. He brought stuff from the office every day to the classroom at night. I think that made accounting maybe a little bit more tolerable for me.
[00:07:45] Vonna Laue: Yeah. Real world application, I think does make it at least a lot more enjoyable.
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[00:07:50] Tommy Thomas: What's something that people are always surprised to find out about you?
[00:07:53] Vonna Laue: I usually can pull a few of those out. I would say the one I would share with you and your listeners today is, I was apparently the nation's youngest emergency medical technician and always will be because they passed a regulation not long after I got licensed, but I was 13 when I licensed as an EMT.
[00:08:14] Vonna Laue: So that usually surprises people.
[00:08:17] Tommy Thomas: That's a good conversation starter.
[00:08:21] Vonna Laue: I thought you might like that one.
[00:08:23] Tommy Thomas: So, you're out of college now. You're in accounting. Can you think back to your first management job and when you had somebody reporting to you? What can you tell us about that?
[00:08:37] Vonna Laue: I'm thankful. I'm going to back up a little bit just in the leadership journey because I'm thankful for the opportunities I had even when it wasn't my career, if you will. I started working when I was 13 at Dairy Queen. And if you work at a fast-food restaurant, at least at that time, more than six or nine months, you're in a leadership position and you've got a crew that works with you.
So, I had that opportunity. And one of the biggest things that looking back on it, and I didn't realize that until our girls got involved, but 4H was huge in my life. And at the time it was fun. I used to horse show and did a lot of the competitions at the county and state level.
[00:09:23] Vonna Laue: But when I then took our daughter to a 4H meeting and realized, wow, this is where I learned a lot of my leadership skills. They operate with Robert's rules of order and the kids run the meetings and they're elected to positions. And so, I have that opportunity at a really young age.
Obviously when I came into the CPA firm, I served there 20 years and over the course of that time, started as a staff accountant and just worked my way up from there into a senior role and a manager role, a partner role, and then ultimately when I left the firm, left as the managing partner at the time of the national firm, so a lot of opportunities and challenges along the way in that, but I think probably the biggest thing is just how important people are and the way that you treat them and the relationships that you develop with them, not in a way that you're manipulative. But in a way that you truly are investing in them, that will serve you and your organization well, but it goes with them wherever they go beyond there.
[00:10:37] Vonna Laue: So I look at that as an opportunity to make an investment long-term in a person.
[00:10:42] Tommy Thomas: So if we could go back to that last three or four years in the CPA world, and here you are the managing partner, and you let me come into your staff meeting one day and after about five minutes, we dismissed you and I was talking to the staff and I asked them, what's the most exciting thing about working for Vonna? What do you think they would have said?
[00:11:04] Vonna Laue: It's a great and scary thought all at the same time. I think that I would take them on the people journey with me, if you will. When I left and moved from our Colorado offices to the California offices, one of the things that really blessed me was one of the staff people that I worked with said, when you traveled with Vonna, she invested in the people in the hotel. When we would go to visit the same client year after year, the hotel clerks knew her because she would take time to visit with them and invest in them. I think sometimes that was annoying to people, and sometimes it was good, but created some interesting and maybe even exciting things along the way.
[00:11:52] Vonna Laue: We had a brand-new staff accountant one time, and we were driving back from an audit between Denver and Colorado Springs, and there was a wreck that happened right in front of us. And this poor staff accountant hadn't worked there for a week or two, and I pulled over and threw him the keys to the car and my cell phone and told him to call 911.
And I just got out, and he had no idea what this accountant was doing. So I created some excitement, I think, just by the different ways that I would interact with people.
[00:12:22] Tommy Thomas: If I flip that coin, what would they say was the most challenging aspect of working for you?
[00:12:29] Vonna Laue: I tend to do a lot of different things. I think you've come to know that about me over the years, Tommy. And I try very hard to let people know that my busyness is my problem and not theirs, but I think that people often are concerned that they're a bother or they're concerned they can't get time.
So, I try to work with the people closest to me frequently on how best to manage. And I'm sure that's not an easy thing.
[00:13:07] Tommy Thomas: Successful people are often asked, what makes you so successful? I'd like to frame the question this way, what's a factor that's helped you succeed that people from the outside probably wouldn't be aware of?
[00:13:20] Vonna Laue: I'll start off with the primary one beyond the obvious one and everyone's the Lord, right? And then, and I 100 percent agree with that. If God had only ever given me what I prayed for, I'd have sure missed out on an incredible amount of opportunity. So that is a given.
Quite honestly. My husband is very instrumental in my success and a lot of people don't know that because Brian's behind the scenes and most people don't know him, but I talk about being raised in a small town and we still laugh about it to this day, but I was terrified to be around people. We went to a football game one time that had a couple thousand people at it.
[00:14:08] Vonna Laue: And I said, would you go get me popcorn? And he said, you can get it yourself. And he wasn't being rude or mean. He just knew that I needed to grow. And I was like, no, I don't need it. And he's like go get your popcorn. And he just has had the foresight over the years to stretch and grow me. And now I think this year I will have probably seven international trips, have the opportunity to speak to hundreds of people at a time, just amazing opportunities and that's a big part of it.
But on a personal front, I think that the key to that is being willing to be stretched. That's not easy. It's a lot easier to go with the routine, to go with the things that are known. But when you're willing to open yourself up to opportunities to be stretched, to take advantage of uncomfortable situations, you get a lot more opportunity that follows.
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[00:15:11] Tommy Thomas: I'm going to make the assumption here that you've had some good mentors in life. Can you take us down that rabbit trail?
[00:15:17] Vonna Laue: I love to talk about mentoring. One of the things that I found throughout a good portion of my career was that it was really hard for me to find a mentor.
And the reason that I say that is because I could find godly women who would invest in me personally and spiritually, but many of them had the perspective of a stay-at-home mom and that they didn't understand why I had the desire to have a career. I love my girls who are grown now, but always laughed that they would not have wanted me at home with them all the time because I don't care that you're two.
You should be able to organize your closet by short sleeve, long sleeve, skirts, dresses, get it organized. So, I had that challenge, with those women that I wanted to speak into that portion of my life. And then when I looked for someone who professionally could invest and develop me, there was almost the opposite of that.
[00:16:21] Vonna Laue: And it was, you got to give everything you have to the job. You're never going to get ahead if you try to balance family. Now, obviously both of those I'm saying to an extreme, but I just had a really difficult time for a long time finding someone who understood my faith and commitment to family, as well as my desire to be excellent in my career.
And over time, I have done that. Tammy Heim has been a great mentor to me and a good balance of those things. And there have been others, but it has given me a commitment that we find that for other people. So, two things I would say, one is I have a distinction of my own between coaching and mentoring. Coaching I believe is professional in nature.
[00:17:10] Vonna Laue: Men and women can work together in a coaching situation. I personally believe that mentoring often flows over into more personal aspects of your life. And it's a holistic approach to family and work and all of those things. And my idea with mentoring is that it should be the same gender, because I don't want to be talking about the difficulties I'm having at home with a male counterpart. That just isn't appropriate to me.
So, I differentiate those two things based on that. And I know not everyone does, but over the last couple of years have had just the extreme privilege of starting some peer mentoring groups for young ladies. And each group is three young women in similar stages of life, but in different roles and in different organizations.
[00:18:00] Vonna Laue: So, they don't come in and fix each other's problems by, oh, you need this software, or you need this vendor. They really listen and help each other problem solve. And then each group has a seasoned leader in it that can contribute maybe some of the stories that she's encountered over time, or even just to be the brakes like, but you could do that, but you might consider what could happen as a result.
[00:18:25] Vonna Laue: Two years ago, we started with two of those groups, we're just wrapping up the second year with five, and next month will start 10 groups committed for the following year. So excited about the opportunity to invest in other young women.
[00:18:42] Tommy Thomas: So, let me take that just a little bit further and we may come back to it later.
Board service has been a big part of your life, certainly in the last 20 years. In your mentoring, are you talking to these women about board service and the pros and cons and if you serve, what's your best contribution kind of thing and trying to give them some opportunities to do that, right?
[00:19:09] Vonna Laue: The first board I served on was not World Vision. I want to remind people, both young people who are getting into board service, get involved in a local community board, whether that is. I served our hospital in Colorado Springs on their governmental committee. Whether it's a local chapter of some organization, the church network and Christian Leadership Alliance served on some of those, taking the opportunities to get involved in that at a more local level and then work your way up just like you would in almost anything else you do.
You don't take up woodworking and become a master craftsman overnight. You start small. So, encouraging them to do that and then encouraging boards and leaders to give young people opportunity and don't expect them to come in with 25 years of experience.
[00:20:10] Vonna Laue: You open the opportunities for them to come in and the things that they will contribute to your board discussions you can't imagine. So, I'm excited about what the future looks like.
[00:20:27] Tommy Thomas: So, going back to personal leadership for a minute, in the book, It's How You Play the Game: The 12 Leadership Principles of Dean Smith, leadership principle #10 is making failure your friend. Can you share something from your life where this has been in play?
[00:20:45] Vonna Laue: Nobody likes to fail, but it absolutely is true and the things that you learn from that and I look back on my time as Managing Partner at the firm and what a blessing that was and how gracious those partners were with me, because I would say, at least one of my biggest failures was just in how I handled the people involved there.
And I just got done saying I love people and I do, but I will say all of those leaders are incredibly successful people and, no, I don't mean anything bad by this for those that are in a professional service firm, but it is so true that it's like herding cats because they all have their own realm and their own domain.
[00:21:33] Vonna Laue: And they're really good at that. And I wasn't really good at bringing them all together at times and helping us find a strategic vision to go forward in, in one direction where we were all pulling in the same way. And so when I hear that quote, that's one of the things that I think about. And that's been a benefit to me in the years after that to look at, how do we get people to pull in the same direction when they have vested interests in a number of different ways? And now I serve in a mission sending organization. And there's some similarity there when you've got global workers that have their own domain in many parts of the world.
God used that to equip me for some of the decisions that have to be made in this setting.
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[00:22:16] Tommy Thomas: Going back to your mentoring thing for a minute, are you introducing failure to these young women?
[00:22:23] Vonna Laue: I would say what I have found is that they're introducing some of their own failures and learning from each other and encouraging each other and the opportunity that it provides those of us that are the season leaders is to say, hey, like this isn't a bad thing. This is difficult. And you would have wanted to avoid this, but this is part of your growing and part of your maturing as a leader and to provide some insights there and embrace it and let them learn from each other. I would say that's probably been the best part of the failure within those groups.
[00:23:03] Tommy Thomas: Frederick Wilcox said progress always involves risk. You can't steal second base with your foot on first. What's the biggest risk you've ever taken and how did it turn out?
[00:23:17] Vonna Laue: One of the things that I have thought about over the years and comes from the lessons that I've talked about where I was glad, I didn't know, taking the Managing Partner role was a huge risk at the time.
I remember vividly sitting with my husband and saying that if I take this role, there's no going back. Like you don't just leave that and go back into the setting where you were before. And we prayed about it and really felt like that's what we were supposed to do. And that was a huge blessing.
[00:23:52] Vonna Laue: It was a challenge, like I've just said, but it was a huge blessing. And then, even bigger than that was the year that I left the firm and that was God saying, you’ve done what I've called you to do here, and now it's time to leave. And I had three arguments for the Lord, and Tommy, I don't know if you've ever argued with the Lord.
If you haven't, I don't suggest it. You're not going to win. So just save your breath. But I had three arguments for him. Number one was I was a lifer. I've told everyone for years, I'm at this firm until retirement. I love it. I'm here. And he said, no. And I said, my second argument was this is economically stupid because he wasn't calling me to something.
[00:24:42] Vonna Laue: He was calling me away from something. And he reminded me of that cattle on a thousand hills. And I was like, ah, yep. He's got that too. And then my third argument was just a little more logistical and operational. And that was that our oldest was headed to college, but our youngest was headed to high school.
And I just said to him, Lord, you can interrupt. My husbands in my life, but let's not mess with our daughter going into high school. Give me four more years and maybe, and he said, no. And so, without having a job, I was supposed to give 12 months’ notice. I went to the partners September 1st of that year and said to them, I believe this is a matter of obedience.
[00:25:23] Vonna Laue: And I think if I don't do it, it's going to be detrimental to the firm and detrimental to our family. And they were gracious and agreed. And so, I wrapped up in four months. I had 150 or so meetings to tell clients I was leaving, and the firm was fine, network people, that I had connections with that I was moving on.
And of course, what's the first question everyone asks you is, so what are you going to do? And this left-brain analytical type A personality had to look at them all 150 times and say, I don't know. And that was a challenge, but it was exactly what God called us to do at that point in time. And I'm glad that while I'm not always faithful and following through, I'm glad that we did that.
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[00:26:14] Tommy Thomas: Join us next week as we continue this conversation with Vonna Laue. Vonna shares insights from her new book, Glad I Didn't Know, which explores lessons learned from life's challenges and unexpected blessings. She discusses the importance of having people who speak truth into a leader's life, the critical role of team dynamics, and the necessity of balancing personal and professional health. Vonna also reflects on the increasing significance of risk management and the impact of artificial intelligence in the nonprofit sector. Tune in for an engaging discussion on leadership, resilience, and growth.
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[00:00:00] Sergey Bogza: Obviously there are strengths and weaknesses in each generation. The conductor is how to utilize the strengths. Every generation brings a perspective. It's certainly a fascinating process working with the baby boomers, so to speak. The work ethic - you're going to get stuff done with baby boomers. They just know how to get stuff done, and they know how to work, and show up on time, and be diligent in their work.
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[00:00:38] Tommy Thomas: Sergey delves into the unique dynamics of working with different generations within an orchestra, highlighting how he leverages the strengths of each age group while minimizing their weaknesses.
He discusses the strategic process of assembling and leading an orchestra, emphasizing the importance of understanding each member's skill set before making changes.
He also reflects on the balance between rigorous rehearsals and the freedom of live performances, sharing his philosophy on leadership and creativity in the fine arts.
This episode is a deep dive into the art of orchestral leadership and the life lessons that come with it, making it a must-listen for anyone interested in leadership, teamwork, and the performing arts.
Let’s pick up where we left off last week.
[00:01:40] Tommy Thomas: I want to go to I guess how you assemble an orchestra like, and we'll just take Panama City. When you came to town you had a group of people that I suppose were members of the symphony. How do you build the team? Did you have to go out and bring new people in? Did you have to release some that weren't up to what you thought might be possible?
[00:02:07] Sergey Bogza: Right? There's a little bit of both. And what I didn't want to do is to be a one-chapter hero or a one act hero act, or I don't know the best way to describe it.
And it all started with, first of all, trying to understand everyone's skill set and not making any changes right away. I wanted to become an informed, compassionate leader first, before initiating any changes, before releasing anyone, before recruiting anyone. I wanted to give everyone a fair shot.
[00:02:54] Sergey Bogza: I also wanted to give myself a fair shot of getting a clear understanding of where we are as an orchestra from a leadership perspective, from talent depth, and get a few concerts under my belt to see here's where we are and to be able to assess and get a clear understanding of where we are as an orchestra.
And then only after that, start making strategic decisions. How do we become a better orchestra? So, the first three, four or five months I was in the data collection phase of talking to people, interviewing orchestra members, and having chamber concerts with selected orchestra musicians.
And after I got a clear picture of where we were, only after that, we started making strategic moves, whether it was by way of an audition, or by way of closely working with people.
[00:04:00] Tommy Thomas: I want to ask you an innovative kind of question, as it relates to the orchestra. Is there room for the orchestra members to innovate or be creative, or is that pretty much in the hands of the conductor?
[00:04:17] Sergey Bogza: It's a little bit of both, frankly. And it's more on the conductor. The conductor will shape more, for example, with a piece that the orchestra has never done, or with a brand-new work that nobody knows. A world premiere.
It's the conductor that has a thing called the score where everyone's parts are in it and the role of the conductor is to take all of that data and assimilate it into a vision and then communicate that vision to the musicians or traditional works.
For example, classical works that everybody has played. It is a much more collaborative process. Everybody brings something to the table. It’s a collaborative process and they offer and then we kind of mold together into one vision that we present to the audience. So, it's a little bit of both. If I'm being 100 percent honest.
[00:05:17] Tommy Thomas: Over the years, you've worked with people from probably the boomer generation, Gen X, Millennials and Gen Z.
Have you noticed any differences in the generations in terms of when it comes to working together as a team. Is there any group that does it better or any group that says, no, we're not going there? Or am I being too general?
[00:05:42] Sergey Bogza: No, I don't think you're being too general. I suppose in my position, especially in the world of fine arts, you work with all groups of people. And I would say that the four groups that you've described have some similarities. There are some overlaps. Obviously there are strengths and weaknesses in each generation.
The conductor is how to utilize the strengths that every generation brings and perspectives. It's certainly a fascinating process working with the baby boomers, so to speak. The work ethic - you're going to get stuff done with baby boomers. They just know how to get stuff done, and they know how to work, and show up on time, and be diligent in their work.
But there is also value in millennials and Gen Xers. In our family, my brothers and sisters span about 20 years. So, I've got a chance to get to know each of those generations quite intimately.
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[00:07:04] Tommy Thomas: If y'all invited me to one of your practice sessions and after a while I convinced you to let me have some time alone with the orchestra. And I asked them two questions. I'd like your response. What would they say is the most challenging aspect of working with you?
[00:07:24] Sergey Bogza: That I'm too punctual during the process. But too free during the performance.
[00:07:34] Tommy Thomas: You want to unpack that a little bit.
[00:07:36] Sergey Bogza: Sure. Probably during our rehearsal some musicians would probably criticize and say that it's too surgical work, that it's too detailed and too punctual, and we're going to start here. We're going to end there. And now we're going to take a break and now we're going to work on this and now we're going to work on that. And it's very, it's super structured and organized and buttoned up.
But when the performance comes, I'm a free man and people will say hold on, we've done this punctual work and then it comes to the performance and then we just sail free and the performance and the sailing free can feel sometimes a little dangerous or on the edge.
[00:08:29] Sergey Bogza: And that's what I live for. That edge in the performance. I feel I can be free in the performance, but for the musicians, they want to keep some of that structure that we've had in rehearsals. So as a leader, I'm still learning how to balance those, how to put the group together and give it that freedom, but not for us to fly during the performance.
But not to fly dangerously, I love to fly dangerously during performances. It’s what I live for, but it's not always to everyone's comfort level.
[00:09:03] Tommy Thomas: But you couldn't mean you couldn't have that comfort. I don't imagine if you hadn't gone through all the rigor of what you just described in the first two or three minutes of this piece that you've practiced. I've heard basketball coaches say that the ball games are won in the practice session. Dean Smith used to say that at Chapel Hill, they won or lost before we got to the game.
[00:09:25] Sergey Bogza: 100%. And that's my philosophy. We set the boundaries, or we set the structure during the rehearsals, but in the performance, we just fly.
And sometimes I like to fly too dangerously in performances. And so that's probably if, when it comes to some of the criticism of musicians, that's probably one of the things that would say is that, things that we thought were all going to be this loud in rehearsal are now twice as loud in the performance because a spirit has taken over or some things we thought that we were going to take play this fast in rehearsal are now a little slower in performance or now a little faster in performance. But in the performance, you adjust to the spirit of the night rather than the spirit of rehearsal. And that is where the magic happens in performances.
And I've always felt that I'm a much better performer than in rehearsal. As a coach in rehearsals, I tend to be too tedious, too formulaic.
[00:10:39] Sergey Bogza: And then like a switch happens when there's an audience and I can't help but to be free. After all, it's what everybody else came to see. They came for the magic, for the wonder of music. And if we perform where the scenes are seen, where the work that the orchestra has put is obvious, where people can see the effort, we've missed the mark.
It needs to feel effortless. When you fly too dangerously, it's sometimes uncomfortable to some people, but it's what we do.
[00:11:28] Tommy Thomas: So, on the flip side, what would they say would be the most rewarding part of being a member of your symphony?
[00:11:37] Sergey Bogza: The rewarding part, whether it's working with the symphony, the board or other musicians is that we complete projects that we start. And we don't take on projects that have a low chance of success. When we get together and we agree to do something, the majority of cases people know one way or another, this project will cross the finish line.
And I think for most people, it's a rewarding aspect. How many times have people started something and never completed it because of the determination factor that didn't come through or somebody else didn't complete a portion of their role with the symphony? We like to do projects that we have a good feeling that we're going to complete.
[00:12:36] Sergey Bogza: And when working with the symphony, whether we do concerts or music education projects, our goal, and in most cases when the people sign up, they internally know that this project will cross the finish line. And instilling that confidence that what we work on will be presented eventually, it will complete.
This is not a vanity project that will just patter out because of lack of focus or lack of enthusiasm. I think it's what gets people going and people are willing to contribute so much more when there's this confidence that we will cross the finish line together.
[00:13:23] Tommy Thomas: A quick question, maybe two, about the pandemic.
I can't even imagine what the pandemic was like for an orchestra or a symphony. And then maybe the second question, what did you get out of the pandemic that's a lesson that you can take forward? What was the silver lining?
[00:13:41] Sergey Bogza: Time is valuable, and time is fleeing. That's what I took away from the pandemic. And for me, I remember even before the pandemic, people would often say, if I had the time, I would learn a new language. I would travel. I would spend more time. I would learn a new skill. I would discover composers I've never heard before.
And then the pandemic happened. And people have all this time and to my surprise, more often than not, whatever people said they wanted to do when they had the time, people didn't pursue those things for one reason or another. So, my thought was like, okay, you must make the time.
[00:14:33] Sergey Bogza: One must find the way to achieve your dreams. Because as I've said, during the pandemic, everybody had so much time on their hands to develop new skills, whatever, to achieve some portion of their dreams, but utilizing time to your best advantage is a skill. Probably the time I've learned from the pandemic is that time is valuable.
You never get it back. So might as well utilize it to the best of your advantage and use it for your own or your good and to do something valuable with it. That's the lesson I took away from that pandemic.
[00:15:11] Tommy Thomas: It is said that we learn most from our failures. If that's the case, why are most of us so afraid to fail?
[00:15:33] Sergey Bogza: I'm trying to give an answer to this, but I'm having a hard time coming up with the right answer because strangely I've got used to failure. It's part of my DNA and I suppose I'm not afraid of failure. I hope it's not coming off, sounding too proud. But I wish more people would take on projects that would make them scared.
There's so much reward on the other side and embracing, I don't know, maybe it's getting comfortable with fear.
[00:16:13] Sergey Bogza: Once one finds a way to be comfortable with fear, whether it's fear of public speaking, of doing something difficult, of doing something where you might embarrass yourself, there's such a reward and beauty on the other side when you can talk to that version of yourself that is fearful.
It's the reason why I feel I've taken up endurance sports. During the endurance run, I always come across that weak, pathetic version of Sergey that says, go home, practice your piano. Why are you here in the middle of the mountains running? Your knee hurts. Your head hurts. You're a musician after all. What are you doing here?
And when one meets that, and gets to understand those evil thoughts of one's weak, pathetic version of themselves, and one gets comfortable with that part of yourself, and one learns how to have that conversation, that I know that voice. Whether it's music or any other field that says maybe this is not for you, maybe you don't belong at this level, you're not meant to achieve these things.
And one learns how to confront that and have an honest conversation, or at least be on equal terms. There's so much freedom on the other side of fear.
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[00:17:58] Tommy Thomas: I'd like you to respond to a few quotes. This is always a fun part of the podcast to me. And here's one that would certainly be in your area. It's from Ben Zander, the Conductor of the Boston Philharmonic. He says the conductor doesn't make a sound. The conductor's power depends upon his or her ability to make other people powerful.
[00:18:22] Sergey Bogza: I could not agree more. Adding anything to that quote would be taking away from it.
[00:18:35] Tommy Thomas: Here's another one. No matter what job you have in life, your success will be determined 5 percent by your credentials, 15 percent by your professional experiences, and 80 percent by your communication skills.
[00:18:54] Sergey Bogza: I have no response except to say, keep them coming. Those are wonderful quotes. Communication is, I suppose everything. And in a world of conductors, where we make no sound at all, and we communicate without gestures, with our eyes, where we communicate nonverbally, where we communicate how we dress, how we look at people, our postures, our demeanor, our facial expressions.
Our orchestras often say within 10 seconds of the conductor on the podium, even before they give the first cue to start, we know the type of person they are. And if we're going to have a successful concert.
[00:19:48] Tommy Thomas: Phil Jackson, the former coach of the Lakers, the strength of the team is each member. The strength of each member is the team. Another one. No one can whistle a symphony. It takes a whole orchestra to play it.
[00:20:14] Sergey Bogza: That is true. Wow, these are wonderful quotes. Keep them coming because I feel like I've just become a student. And I'm learning. There's no response to that. This is beautiful.
These are beautiful quotes. And yeah, they apply to orchestras, just like any business or any organization that requires a team to make it tick and work.
Another athletic quote from Casey Stengel. Getting good players is easy. Getting them to play together is the hard part.
[00:20:53] Sergey Bogza: I have something to say about that. In the musical world, and especially in a professional orchestra, where you're not learning, when you're not working with amateurs, when you're working with people that have years and years of training, and to be in a music world there's no way you cannot have an ego to get on stage, to pick up an instrument, to make a sound and to have that confidence.
I have something valuable for people to listen to that takes a certain amount of conviction and takes a certain amount of ego in the best sense of that word. Now, when you get 65 musicians that have that pedigree, that have that background, and to mold all of that into a group, that is tricky, that is difficult.
[00:21:52] Sergey Bogza: And that is where quality of leadership is essentially determined. I have had a friend who said, you don't really know how good of a conductor you are until you've truly worked with a professional orchestra. It's easy as a conductor or a coach to work with. I don't want to say it's easy. It's a different ball game.
If you're working with, say undeveloped talent, where you have to do drills and you have to instill the basics. But when you're working with professionals who have done it, who know the business, who know how it goes, when on the first go around the orchestra is sounding amazing, when you don't need to point out little deficiencies, when you no longer need to correct wrong notes, wrong rhythms, or the orchestra is not together, when the product is great from the get go, that's when you really learn the kind of leader you are and the depth of your conducting abilities.
[00:23:06] Sergey Bogza: Because then you really must give the magic, then you must give the musical leadership, the intentions behind the music, the spirit of it, you have to inspire a great product of what you're already getting that's wonderful. And that's when you really learn what level of a musician you are.
Are you an artist or you are a drill sergeant or you're a basic conductor that just knows the basics? That's the tricky part. It's when you get a well-oiled machine. For example, when I grew up, I loved basketball. And in the mid 90s, of course, it was the Chicago Bulls.
[00:23:50] Sergey Bogza: Imagine becoming a coach of a team like that. Winning championships, we've got the best player in the world, you've got the best synergy and your goal as a coach to drive that, to give them something even more, we're not coaching a team that's losing every other game, where you get the best team and your goal is to continue that energy and to elevate it. That's where you really learn who you are as a leader and as a coach.
[00:24:29] Tommy Thomas: Here's a different kind of quote. If you never color outside the lines, the picture will never change.
[00:24:38] Sergey Bogza: Yeah. And in the world of music, when you're working with works that have been composed 200 years ago, 300 years ago, 100 years ago, that have become staple in our repertoire world, works that everyone has, everyone knows. And when they come to a concert and you're performing that piece, the conductor's role is to color outside the lines, to give those works a new perspective, a new life. And in that sense would have missed the point by coloring inside the lines.
We'll close out with a couple of, two, three lightning round questions. The first one, have you changed in the last five years?
[00:25:29] Sergey Bogza: Oh, yes. I think I'm a different person than I was five years ago. I'd like to say that I'm a more patient and sympathetic person. And I give that credit to my two dogs, Samson and Stella. I've become a dog owner in the last five years. It's a new area of life that I've discovered and taking care of two animals daily has changed who I am as a person.
That's one of the things I wish I had done earlier in my life, is to become a pet owner.
[00:26:21] Tommy Thomas: If you could meet any historical figure and ask them only one question, who would it be and what would you ask?
[00:26:40] Sergey Bogza: It would be the Russian composer Dmitri Shostakovich. And the question I would ask him is, where did you find the energy and the meaning to carry on?
[00:27:02] Tommy Thomas: Final question, what's the best piece of advice anybody's ever given you?
[00:27:09] Sergey Bogza: Be humble, be a student, and lead with compassion.
[00:27:21] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes at our website – www.JobfitMatters.com/podcast.
If there are topics you'd like for me to explore, my email address is [email protected]. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
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Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search - What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Panama City Symphony Website
Sergey Bogza's Personal Website
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