About this Episode

Kareem Thomas, host of Next Man Up and The MCEL Podcast, sits down with Dr. Rodney Harrison and Barry Wilkins to explore the real lives of assistant principals. This conversation dives into leadership, identity, and the creation of safe, community-centered schools, while also shedding light on the daily challenges, rewards, and the necessity of leading with authenticity and prioritizing self-care.

Key Takeaways

• Community is the foundation of school culture

• Authentic leadership matters

• AP's role is both a pipeline and a pressure cooker

• Self-care is essential, not optional

About Barry Wilkins

Barry Wilkins was born and raised in Philadelphia. He has spent nearly two decades in the financial sector, holding leadership roles in investment banking and wealth management. But in 2016, a shift in the national landscape forced a personal reckoning. He realized that the most important work wasn't in a boardroom; it was in our schools. His mission is to position our scholars for limitless success by investing in their social-emotional well-being, championing equity, and challenging them to be the architects of their wildest dreams. This means bridging the gap between economic opportunity and educational equity by leading rigorous, student-centered schools that serve as launchpads rather than holding cells.

About Dr. Rodney Harrison

Dr. Rodney Harrison is a student-centered educational leader with over seventeen years of experience spanning teaching, counseling, and school administration. Throughout his career, he has focused on elevating instructional practices, strengthening inclusive school cultures, and empowering both students and educators through data-driven decision-making and collaborative leadership. His journey from school counselor to assistant principal across multiple districts reflects his commitment to equity, professional growth, and creating thriving learning environments where every stakeholder feels supported and seen.

About the Podcast

Next Man Up amplifies the voices of men of color in education. Hosted by Kareem Thomas, it explores the challenges and triumphs of educational leaders who drive systemic change. The podcast empowers current and aspiring leaders to embrace their power and make an impact.

Learn More: To learn more about the Next Man Up podcast or to be a guest, visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠mcelleaders.org/podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ or follow us on social media at @mcelleaders.

About this Episode

In this Women’s History Month special episode of Next Man Up, Kareem Thomas is joined by Dr. Nadia Bennett and Natalie St. Louis for a powerful conversation on authenticity, resilience, and leadership. From overcoming barriers to uplifting leaders of color, they share real strategies for impact, mentorship, and sustainability in the work.

About Natalie St. Louis

Natalie St. Louis is an ICF-PCC Certified Executive Leadership Coach who supports education leaders through 1:1 coaching and professional development. Grounded in the International Coaching Federation Core Competencies and Code of Ethics, she helps leaders clarify their vision, align their values, and set meaningful goals while feeling seen, supported, and heard.

With over 20 years in education, including more than a decade as a school leader, Natalie has led significant gains in student achievement and enrollment, earning recognition for driving turnaround success. Her experience spans roles as a teacher, reading specialist, instructional coach, staff developer, assistant principal, and principal.

A 2018 Neubauer Fellow, Natalie holds two master’s degrees from Bank Street College and Teachers College, Columbia University, and is currently pursuing her doctorate at the University of Pennsylvania. She is also a proud wife and mother of two.

About Dr. Nadia Bennett

Dr. Nadia A. Bennett is the founder and CEO of When Brown Girls Lead®, a consulting firm focused on building equity-driven schools and districts nationwide. Through culturally relevant leadership development, she supports educators in creating anti-racist, high-impact learning environments.

A former charter superintendent and principal, Dr. Bennett has a proven track record of driving results, doubling ELA scores, improving attendance and staff retention, and leading school turnaround efforts. Notably, she led Simon Gratz Mastery High School to the top of Philadelphia’s charter rankings during her tenure.

Dr. Bennett holds degrees from Dillard University and Howard University, completed the Urban Superintendents Academy through AASA, and earned her doctorate as part of her ongoing commitment to educational excellence.

About the Podcast

Next Man Up amplifies the voices of men of color in education. Hosted by Kareem Thomas, it explores the challenges and triumphs of educational leaders who drive systemic change. The podcast empowers current and aspiring leaders to embrace their power and make an impact.

Learn More: To learn more about the Next Man Up podcast or to be a guest, visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠mcelleaders.org/podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ or follow us on social media at @mcelleaders.

About this Episode

Kareem Thomas, host of Next Man Up, The MCEL Podcast, sits down with Dr. Rodney Harrison and Barry Wilkins to explore the real life of assistant principals. This conversation dives into leadership, identity, and creating safe, community-centered schools, while also shedding light on the daily challenges, rewards, and the necessity of leading with authenticity and prioritizing self-care.

Key Takeaways

• Community is the foundation of school culture

• Authentic leadership matters

• AP's role is both a pipeline and a pressure cooker

• Self-care is essential, not optional

About Barry Wilkins

Barry Wilkins was born and raised in Philadelphia. He has spent nearly two decades in the financial sector, holding leadership roles in investment banking and wealth management. But in 2016, a shift in the national landscape forced a personal reckoning. He realized that the most important work wasn't in a boardroom; it was in our schools. His mission is to position our scholars for limitless success by investing in their social-emotional well-being, championing equity, and challenging them to be the architects of their wildest dreams. This means bridging the gap between economic opportunity and educational equity by leading rigorous, student-centered schools that serve as launchpads, not holding cells.

About Dr. Rodney Harrison

Dr. Rodney Harrison is a student-centered educational leader with over seventeen years of experience spanning teaching, counseling, and school administration. Throughout his career, he has focused on elevating instructional practices, strengthening inclusive school cultures, and empowering both students and educators through data-driven decision-making and collaborative leadership. His journey from school counselor to assistant principal across multiple districts reflects his commitment to equity, professional growth, and creating thriving learning environments where every stakeholder feels supported and seen.

About the Podcast

Next Man Up amplifies the voices of men of color in education. Hosted by Kareem Thomas, it explores the challenges and triumphs of educational leaders who drive systemic change. The podcast empowers current and aspiring leaders to embrace their power and make an impact.

Learn More: To learn more about the Next Man Up podcast or to be a guest, visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠mcelleaders.org/podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ or follow us on social media at @mcelleaders.

About this Episode

In this episode of Next Man Up, host Kareem Thomas speaks with guests Ray Pace and Dr. Wardell Hunter about the critical importance of leadership development programs for aspiring school leaders. They explore the frameworks for effective leadership training, the significance of mentoring and coaching, and the need for self-assessment and reflective conversations in preparing future leaders. The conversation also addresses the challenges faced by assistant principals and the importance of adaptability in diverse educational environments.

Key Takeaways

• Reflective conversations help aspiring leaders understand their motivations.
• Self-assessment against leadership standards is essential for growth.
• Mentoring provides technical assistance, while coaching focuses on mindset.
• Transitioning to new roles can enhance leadership skills.

About Raymond Roy-Pace

Raymond Roy-Pace is an education leader and strategist with over 15 years of experience advancing instructional excellence, leadership development, and equity-driven school improvement. He currently serves as a Professional Learning Specialist for the School District of Philadelphia, where he leads large-scale leadership development for nearly 300 assistant principals across more than 200 schools.

Ray’s career includes roles as a high school principal, assistant principal, adjunct professor, instructional coach, and classroom teacher. A national presenter and published contributor, his work focuses on developing culturally responsive leaders, strengthening leadership pipelines, and improving outcomes for students and educators.

About Dr. Wardell Hunter

Dr. Wardell Hunter is a seasoned education leader with over 25 years of experience serving schools across the metro-Atlanta area. He previously served as Director of Leadership Development for Atlanta Public Schools, where he supported aspiring principals, assistant principals, instructional leaders, and central office teams.

Across his career, Dr. Hunter has held roles including principal (interim), assistant principal of instruction, academy leader for business and entrepreneurship, and instructional leader in both Atlanta Public Schools and DeKalb County Schools. His work centers on leadership development, instructional improvement, and building strong school-community partnerships to support student success.

Dr. Hunter holds a doctorate in Educational Administration from Georgia Southern University and is a certified Gallup and John Maxwell Coach. He is deeply committed to developing effective, equity-focused leaders and improving outcomes in urban education. Outside of work, he enjoys spending time with his three sons and engaging in family activities.

About the Podcast

Next Man Up amplifies the voices of men of color in education. Hosted by Kareem Thomas, it explores the challenges and triumphs of educational leaders who drive systemic change. The podcast empowers current and aspiring leaders to embrace their power and make an impact.

Learn More: To learn more about the Next Man Up podcast or to be a guest, visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠mcelleaders.org/podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠ or follow us on social media at @mcelleaders.

About this Episode

In this episode of Next Man Up, host Kareem Thomas discusses the importance of social-emotional learning (SEL) in education with guests Errin Smith, Dr. Arman Lakes, and Dr. Chuck Curtis. They focus on SEL’s impact on young men of color, emphasizing how emotional well-being affects academic success. The conversation covers student support roles, common misconceptions about SEL, the challenges faced by care teams, and the need for self-care. The guests share personal insights and advice for aspiring educators, stressing the value of community commitment and understanding the complexities of their work.

About Errin Smith

Errin Smith is an educator and leader dedicated to empowering young Black men. A Hampton University graduate with a Master’s in Teacher Leadership, he began his teaching career in 2009. Errin became a founding staff member at Ron Brown College Preparatory High School in 2016, where he serves as Special Education Coordinator and Coach. His work focuses on emotional healing, restorative practices, and guiding young men through challenges while promoting accountability and growth. Errin’s leadership prioritizes equity, empowerment, and the creation of pathways for students’ success both in and beyond the classroom.

About Dr. Arman Lakes

Dr. Arman Lakes is the Director of School Redesign and CTE Academies at Ron Brown College Preparatory High School. He leads initiatives to improve academic and operational success, including retention strategies and professional development. Before this role, Dr. Lakes served as a school counselor, focusing on college readiness and early interventions. He holds a Doctorate in Educational Leadership from Howard University and is passionate about helping students unlock their unique potential for personal transformation.

About Dr. Charles Curtis

Dr. Charles Curtis is a psychologist and restorative practitioner focused on the well-being of Black boys and men. A Morehouse College graduate, he earned his Ph.D. in Clinical and School Psychology from the University of Virginia. Dr. Curtis works at Ron Brown College Preparatory High School and maintains a private practice that offers culturally grounded counseling. His approach integrates healing, ancestral wisdom, and accountability to help Black individuals thrive.

About the Podcast

Next Man Up amplifies the voices of men of color in education. Hosted by Kareem Thomas, it explores the challenges and triumphs of educational leaders who drive systemic change. The podcast empowers current and aspiring leaders to embrace their power and make an impact.

Summary:

In this episode of Next Man Up, host Kareem Thomas engages with Dr. Aaron Dukes and Mr. Brandon Johnson, two leaders who transitioned from school principal roles to central office positions. They discuss their personal journeys, the challenges of recognizing when to move on, the importance of mentorship, and how they apply skills from their principalship in their current roles. The conversation also touches on the need for authenticity in leadership, the impact of financial constraints on education, and strategies for supporting principals from a systems perspective. The episode concludes with reflections on defining success in leadership and recommendations for future guests.

About our guests

Dr. Aaron Dukes is a proud graduate of Alabama State University who has dedicated his career to helping schools become places where both children and adults can truly thrive. From teacher to principal to Chief Impact Officer, he’s learned that real transformation begins when people feel seen, valued, and trusted. His leadership is grounded in a deep belief in the power of culture, community, and purpose-driven action.

Brandon Johnson is a dedicated educator with more than a decade of experience advancing equity and excellence in education. He began his career as a teacher and instructional math coach before becoming a Leader in Residence and later founding The Social Justice School, where he served as principal for six years. Under his leadership, the school grew into a thriving community grounded in justice, joy, and rigorous learning. Today, Brandon serves as the Managing Director of The Social Justice School, continuing his mission to empower educators and students to lead with purpose and impact.

Key Takeaways

• Transitioning from principal to district leadership is complex.
• Mentorship plays a crucial role in career advancement.
• Recognizing when to move on is essential for personal growth.
• Communication skills are vital in leadership roles.
• Empathy is key in supporting school leaders.
• Understanding systems is crucial for effective leadership.
• Feedback is essential for improvement and growth.
• Authenticity in leadership fosters trust and respect.
• Outcomes are a measure of leadership success.

Summary:

In this episode of Next Man Up, host Kareem Thomas sits down with Mario Jovan and Vincent Rawlings for a powerful and deeply reflective conversation about what it means to support LGBTQ+ students as male leaders of color. Together, they explore the intersections of identity, leadership, and advocacy, unpacking the challenges of fostering inclusivity within the education system. The discussion highlights the realities of political pushback, the critical role of empathy, and the responsibility of leaders to self-educate and confront bias. The episode concludes with an inspiring call to action, highlighting the growing allyship among students and the importance of recognizing the interconnectedness of all social issues.

About our guests

Mario Jovan Shaw

Mario Jovan Shaw is an artist, storyteller, and leadership coach committed to empowering social impact leaders. A former 7th-grade teacher in Charlotte-Mecklenburg Schools, he founded The Brotherhood to support young Black males. He later co-founded Profound Gentlemen, which retains 98% of male educators of color each year. Inspired by his own coaching journey, he launched Messy Roots to help leaders grow with authenticity and purpose. A Forbes 30 Under 30 honoree in Social Impact, Mario is also a mindfulness practitioner, a 200-hour RYT yoga instructor, and the author of The Inside Out Journal.

Vincent Rawlings

Vincent Rawlings is a proud Washingtonian, educator, and advocate for equity and social justice. A Teach for America alumnus and current Principal-in-Residence at KIPP DC College Preparatory High School, he has led efforts to recruit and develop Black male educators and create affirming spaces for LGBTQ youth, including founding the Gay Black Boy Society. Guided by his belief in education as a means of liberation, Rawlings aspires to establish a school for young men of color, centered on social justice, identity, and political empowerment.

Takeaways

• Leadership is about ensuring every child feels safe, seen, and supported.
• Navigating identity as a male leader of color involves recognizing the humanity of all students.
• Creating inclusive spaces is essential for the well-being of LGBTQ+ students.
• Challenging personal biases is crucial for effective leadership in education.
• Political pushback can hinder discussions about LGBTQ+ issues in schools.
• Empathy and emotional intelligence are vital for leaders in education.
• Students are increasingly becoming allies for their peers in the LGBTQ+ community.
• Educators must educate themselves on issues affecting all students, particularly those from marginalized groups.
• The interconnectedness of social issues means addressing all forms of discrimination.
• Hope lies in the allyship and support of students for their LGBTQ+ peers.

About the Podcast

Next Man Up amplifies the voices and experiences of men of color in educational leadership. Hosted by Kareem Thomas, the podcast explores the triumphs, challenges, and pivotal moments that shape leaders who break barriers and drive systemic change in education. Through candid conversations and expert insights, Next Man Up inspires listeners to embrace their unique power, build community, and foster mentorship. Whether you’re a current leader, aspiring changemaker, or ally, this podcast will empower you to step up and make an impact. The next man up could be you!

Learn More: To learn more about the Next Man Up podcast or to be a guest, visit ⁠⁠mcelleaders.org/podcast⁠⁠ or follow us on social media at @mcelleaders.

Summary:

In this episode of Next Man Up, host Kareem Thomas engages with Dr. Jacob Waites and Joseph Speight to discuss the significance of affinity spaces in education, particularly for educators who are men of color. They explore the definition of affinity spaces, their importance in fostering community and a sense of belonging, and the challenges educators face in today's political climate. The conversation also highlights the role of families and students in advocating for educational equity, as well as the need for innovative solutions to support educators of color.

About Joseph Speight 

Joseph E. Speight Jr. is a visionary educator and equity-driven leader dedicated to transforming outcomes for historically underserved communities. He currently serves as Deputy Chief Academic Officer, guiding instructional strategy, curriculum, and educator effectiveness to advance student achievement.

Joseph is the Co-Founder of Statesmen College Preparatory Academy for Boys in Washington, DC, and the National Association of Black Male Educators (NABME), a national network committed to increasing the presence and impact of Black male educators. He also leads as Executive Director of the Black Male Teacher Residency, a pioneering program that recruits, develops, and retains Black male teachers through culturally responsive pathways and support.

He holds a B.S. from Virginia State University, dual M.S. degrees from Nyack College and Trinity Washington University, and an Executive Master of Leadership from Georgetown University.

About Jacob Waites 

Dr. Jacob Waites is a dedicated educator from Philadelphia. He has served as a teacher, dean, and principal, making a significant impact on local schools. He earned his undergraduate degree from Cheyney University, a master's from American University,  and a doctorate from Northeastern University. His commitment to education emphasizes the importance of representation, particularly for Black and Brown students, reflecting a broader movement to increase diversity among educators.

About the Podcast

Next Man Up amplifies the voices and experiences of men of color in educational leadership. Hosted by Kareem Thomas, the podcast explores the triumphs, challenges, and pivotal moments that shape leaders who break barriers and drive systemic change in education. Through candid conversations and expert insights, Next Man Up inspires listeners to embrace their unique power, build community, and foster mentorship. Whether you're a current leader, aspiring changemaker, or ally, this podcast will empower you to step up and make an impact. The next man up could be you!

To learn more about the Next Man Up podcast or to be a guest, visit mcelleaders.org/podcast or follow us on social media at @mcelleaders.

Summary:

In this episode of Next Man Up, host Kareem Thomas engages with educational leaders Justin Sinclair and Dr. Harold McCray to discuss the challenges and strategies of school transformation, the importance of self-care for leaders, and the need for culturally responsive education. They share personal journeys, insights on effective leadership, and the significance of community involvement in educational initiatives. The conversation highlights the delicate balance between driving change in schools and maintaining personal well-being, providing practical advice for new leaders in the field.

About Dr. Harold McCray, Jr.

Dr. Harold McCray, Jr. is a Philadelphia native and veteran educator with over 21 years of experience in K–12 education. He currently serves as the founding principal of MacArthur High School in Washington, D.C. A champion for equity and excellence, Dr. McCray focuses on creating safe, high-quality learning environments—especially for Black boys.

He holds degrees from Delaware State University, Bowie State University, and Walden University, and has served in roles ranging from classroom teacher to district leader. Beyond the school walls, he's a best-selling co-author of Girl Dad, a mentor, speaker, and recipient of Bowie State's Outstanding Principal of the Year award.

Dr. McCray is also a proud husband and father of three daughters.

About Justin Sinclair

Justin Sinclair, M.Ed., MSW, is the President of Epiphany Education, an organization focused on empowering educators and leaders in the post-pandemic era. With over a decade of experience as a school administrator and leadership coach, Justin has successfully transformed schools academically and culturally. He also facilitates national and local conferences.

Specializing in supporting burned-out and new teachers, Justin’s team integrates wellness strategies to care for the "whole child and whole adult." His human-centered approach, which values personal wellness alongside professional growth, has been pivotal to Epiphany Education's success in helping schools and districts meet their unique goals.

Takeaways

• The importance of creating and sustaining affinity spaces in education.
• School transformation requires a holistic and systemic approach.
• Culturally responsive education is essential for serving students of color.
• Listening to the voices of students and the community is crucial in transformation efforts.
• Self-care is a non-negotiable for effective leadership.
• Leaders must model the behavior they want to see in their staff.
• Building a culture of self-care can enhance staff well-being and effectiveness.
• Delegation is key to preventing burnout among school leaders.
• Setting firm boundaries is essential for maintaining personal health.
• Understanding your 'why' can sustain you through challenges.

About the Podcast

Next Man Up, hosted by Kareem Thomas, amplifies the voices and experiences of men of color in educational leadership.

Learn More: To learn more about the Next Man Up podcast or to be a guest, visit ⁠mcelleaders.org/podcast⁠ or follow us on social media at @mcelleaders.

Summary:

In the season two premiere of Next Man Up, host Kareem Thomas welcomes Harrison Peters, co-founder and CEO of MCEL, to discuss the current state of the organization and its initiatives. They delve into the National Leadership Institute, its core principles, and the importance of community among leaders of color. The conversation also covers the competencies framework for leaders, the application process for the next cohort, and highlights from the recent Leaders Developing Leaders Summit. Finally, they discuss the upcoming National Convening and share insights on resilience and leadership for the new school year.

Key Takeaways:

• The National Leadership Institute focuses on personal growth and leadership identity.

• Cohorts create a supportive community for leaders of color.

• Self, site, and system are critical pillars of leadership development.

• Leaders of color face unique challenges in their professional journeys.

• The importance of accountability in educational leadership is emphasized.

• The application for the next cohort opens in November.

• The Leaders Developing Leaders Summit fosters collaboration among educational leaders.

• The National Convening is a key event for networking and professional development.

• Resilience and grace are essential qualities for educators in today's world.

• Understanding the assignment means prioritizing the needs of students.

Quote Worthy:

• "The principal role is a critical cheerleader."

• "We believe that the answer was in the room."

• "We have to understand that it's not about us."

About Harrison Peters

beganHarrison Peters is the CEO and Co-founder of Men of Color in Educational Leadership (MCEL) and a former State Turnaround Superintendent of Providence Public Schools. Inspired by teachers who believed in him, he grew up in Pensacola, Florida, raised by his grandmother with limited education, which fueled his passion for advocating for children nationwide. Harrison started his career as an elementary teacher. He advanced into leadership roles across major school districts, including Charlotte-Mecklenburg, Chicago, Houston, Hillsborough County, and Providence, where he helped transform struggling schools. His achievements include improving graduation rates, ACT scores, and reducing achievement gaps. A Navy veteran, he holds degrees from the University of West Florida, Nova Southeastern University, and the University of South Florida. Passionate about student success, Harrison believes in unlocking every child's potential through support and dedicated leadership.

About the Podcast

Next Man Up amplifies the voices and experiences of men of color in educational leadership. Hosted by Kareem Thomas, the podcast explores the triumphs, challenges, and pivotal moments that shape leaders who break barriers and drive systemic change in education. Through candid conversations and expert insights, Next Man Up inspires listeners to embrace their unique power, build community, and foster mentorship. Whether you're a current leader, aspiring changemaker, or ally, this podcast will empower you to step up and make a meaningful impact. The next man up could be you!

Learn More

To learn more about the Next Man Up podcast or to be a guest, visit mcelleaders.org/podcast or follow us on social media at @mcelleaders.