In this honest and heartfelt conversation, I sit down with David Hayward — also known as The Naked Pastor — to explore his journey of self-discovery, healing, and creative expression.

David opens up about his path through discouragement, his passion for social justice, and how discovering he leads with Enneagram Type Four felt like a "born again" moment that brought him home to himself. We talk about art, music, writing, and the emotional toll of standing up for what's right.

Known for his powerful cartoons and bold honesty, David continues to inspire with his vulnerability and vision. Tune in for a moving episode about purpose, transformation, and asking the big question: how long is the arc of justice?

Find David (The Naked Pastor) at nakedpastor.com or on your favorite social platform.

Kathy Escobar returns to Nine LIves to explore the joys and struggles of living in community—especially through the lens of an Enneagram Two. She opens up about learning to set boundaries, navigating faith shifts, and the deeply personal journey of learning to receive help.

In this powerful episode, Kathy shares how the loss of her son to suicide continues to shape her story and her ongoing evolution. She speaks candidly about grief, healing, and the loss of a faith community—and how those experiences have deepened her understanding of compassion and connection.

Kathy highlights the crucial stretch for Enneagram Twos: receiving help from others.

Kathy draws from the nurturing nature of Type 2 to create safe, authentic spaces through The Refuge in Denver and CommunityHeals, which she co-leads with her husband, Jose. She's also the author of several books, including her latest: Turning Over Tables: A Lenten Call for Disrupting Power.

Learn more at kathyescobar.com and communityheals.com.

Leslie Quilico offers an honest and insightful look at life through the lens of an Enneagram Type Three. While Threes are known for their drive and success, Leslie shares how she's learning that there is more to life. That said, she's also learning to embrace her drive for meaningful accomplishment.

A natural achiever, she admits: "If we can make it a competition, it will be more fun!" — yet she challenges herself (and us) to stay grounded in what really matters.

As a leadership coach and Certified TrustCentric Guide, Leslie blends Enneagram wisdom with her passion for trust-building, especially among women leaders and small businesses.

She drops gems like:

✨ "Everyone can have a PhD in doing what you say you're going to do." ✨ "If you're willing to do the work at work, it affects your whole life." ✨ "Trust is simple—follow through with your promises."

Connect with Leslie on LinkedIn, Instagram, or Facebook, or reach her at [email protected] or [email protected].

Enneagram Eight energy is on full display in this episode with author and award-winning drama teacher Deborah Baldwin. With a no-nonsense approach and big-picture leadership, Deb is all about meaningful work and cutting through the noise.

Her passion for theater education shines in her book, We're Live! Radio Theater #101, which brings a fresh, engaging approach to teaching drama through the exciting genre of radio theater.

Though she calls herself a newcomer to the Enneagram, Deborah puts on a clinic in understanding Type Eight. She's driven, bold, and unafraid to take charge. She leads with confidence, pushes for results, and struggles with those who get stuck in negativity.

We also see the often-overlooked tender side of the Enneagram Eight. Deb exemplifies how self-awareness and personal growth leads to balance, integration, and a deeper sense of purpose.

Her book is available on Amazon Check out dramamommaspeaks.com to fine additional teaching resources. Follow her on social media at #dramamommaspeaks.

Brian Mueller on the Enneagram One Journey

Brian Mueller shares his experience as an Enneagram One, exploring the inner critic's powerful call to "do the right thing."

Brian discusses how recognizing his Type One structure helps him regulate it, using awareness and practice to avoid being confined by his Type.

Brian also highlights the ongoing work of returning to presence—not just getting grounded, but continually regrounding.

He helps men discover identity and purpose through powerfully unique processes through Illuman. Find his poetry at brianmueller.com. Find his work with spiritual formation at Choosing Presence.

In this episode, I sit down with Brandon Graves and unpack the patterns and structure of the Enneagram Four.

Like many, Brandon initially mistyped himself, thinking he was a Three. Over time, he discovered his true home in Four.

Brandon shares key insights into the core traits of Fours—deep emotions, comparison, envy, and the ongoing pursuit of feeling "enough."

Beyond the Enneagram, Brandon is an accomplished drummer, instructor, and studio musician. He plays with various bands, including his wife's band, Christena Graves, and regularly performs at Vintage Church in Lawrence, KS.

🔗 Connect with Brandon on his social media handle, @beatcaster, and: 🌐 brandongravesmusic.com 🌐 christenagravesmusic.com

Shelby Hay shares her journey as an entrepreneur through the lens of an Enneagram Four. She opens up about the highs and lows of business, the struggle with comparison, and the challenge of feeling "not enough."

With honesty and creativity, Shelby reveals how she overcame self-doubt and found joy in the process. She offers practical tools to break free from self-defeating emotions and Enneagram Fours' pattern of envy. Her insights serve as a great resource to all Enneagram Fours!

Discover more about her work at Sunny Day Party Art and follow her on social media under the same name.

Musician, pastor, leader and all-around-great-human John Flynn reflects on the stuff of life that really matters. John emphasizes the role of community in creating a balanced, healthy life as well as shaping our approach to leadership.

As an Enneagram Type One, John has firsthand experience navigating the drive for perfection. Through his music, leadership, and relationships, he continues to soften the inner critic, exemplifying the arc of growth within the Type One structure.

An accomplished guitarist, John plays with several bands and can be heard most Sundays at Vintage Church in Lawrence, KS, where he also serves as the Community Life Pastor. For more about Vintage, go to https://vintagelawrence.com

Find out more about the Enneagram and the work of Transmuto at https://www.transmuto.org

David Tensen returns to the show to explore the importance of "eldering"—living with sacrificial love in later life.

He introduces key concepts like "decentric eldering," "transcend and include," and "stages of faith."

Based in Australia, David exemplifies how healthy Enneagram Nines show up and make a meaningful impact in the world. He's also a poet, author, and advocate for emotionally healthy spirituality.

Learn more about David and his work, including his latest project with the Collective Wisdom Academy, at www.davidtensen.com.

This episode wraps up Season Seven of Nine Lives, where we've been exploring the Enneagram through panel work.

Our finale focuses on Enneagram Six. Dan Gregg, Christine Flower and Craig Hinca join me in an engaging and insightful examination of the Enneagram Six structure.

A key feature of Type 6 is the ongoing thought process Sixes experience. Their thoughts consist of worries, doubts and planning for safety and security. As the panelists describe, one thought leads to another and to another and to another--like tree branches or spider webs; unending and connected.

Dan, Christine and Craig detail their processes of overcoming worry and fear, learning to trust their own agency. They provide insights to silencing their inner committees and gaining permission to stop planning and strategizing.

Dan is a retired paramedic and firefighter. He is currently studying to be chef and is a transformational speaker. You can follow Dan on Instagram @jdangregg66.

Christine is an educator and blogger. Her website is https://thecenterededucator.com and you can follow her on Instagram @thecenterededucator.

Craig is an administrative analyst and consultant, spiritual director, licensed minister and artist. Follow him on Instagram @craighinca, contact him at [email protected], and find more of his work at https://churchwell.co

Find more about Jeff's work at https://www.transmuto.org/