Gil Crosby interviews Dr. Ron Short about the creation of the Leadership Institute of Seattle (LIOS), a T-group based OD graduate program. Ron has known Gil since Gil's early teens, and describes how LIOS was brought into being in part during a conversation under the plum tree in Gil's childhood backyard. Ron was unique in conceptualizing family systems and other theory so it could be applied to practical matters, and in doing the hard work of organizing the LIOS experiential curriculum so it could meet the standards of host academic bodies such as Whitworth College and of the State of Washington.