Of Interest

The Australian Government's a Future Made in Australiainitiative could attract skilled migrants and potentially investment and entrepreneurs from New Zealand, and ultimately be a catalyst for a much more sustainable future, says Kylie Walker, the CEO of the Australian Academy of Technological Sciences & Engineering.

In last month's budget, Prime Minister Anthony Albanese's government unveiled a Future Made in Australia, saying this would invest A$22.7 billion over a decade to "build a stronger, more diversified and more resilient economy powered by clean energy, in a way that creates secure, well paid jobs and delivers benefits to communities across the country."

Speaking in the latest episode of interest.co.nz's Of Interest podcast, Walker says a key aim of the initiative is to boost Australia's economy complexity, a measure of the knowledge in a society as expressed in the products it produces, by upskilling and moving up the value chain.

"Obviously, we can't do everything, but we can absolutely do more than just digging up [natural resources such as minerals] and selling them off and then buying them back again in more technologically sophisticated forms. We know that those critical minerals are absolutely necessary for the ongoing electronics revolution, as well as for the clean energy future globally. So we can, for example, process our iron ore, or it can be used in or [turned] into green iron, at least, so that it can be used in green steel. And we have the minerals to make batteries for electric vehicles, for example. We have extraordinary batteries technology. Some of our researchers and developers in that space are amongst the best in the world. And so it seems to me, putting these two kind of natural assets at either end of that development spectrum together, that there ought to be a way to move us a little bit further along the value chain," Walker says.

To this end there'll be a need for skilled workers, especially in STEM (science, technology, engineering, and maths).

"Around 48% of professional occupations were in shortage across Australia last year, and that's up from 39% the year before. There's a similar shortage in the technical and trades occupations in Australia. So we are both going to have to train new people domestically as a matter of priority, and in addition to that, rely on skilled migration. And, you know, I think traditionally it's probably reasonable to assume some of that skilled migration might come from New Zealand," she says.

There should also be a role for private sector investment, research, development and ideas. Much of the earmarked government investment takes the form of tax incentives, but also includes a range of funding mechanisms.

"One of the other focus areas that we've got simultaneously with this Future Made in Australia push is, of course, building capacity in the global region. And there is a huge place, a huge part to play for New Zealand, for Pacific island nations and other near neighbours like Indonesia, in collaborating to research and commercialise those developments, particularly in the technology and engineering spaces, and to do that for mutual benefit, so that we build the capacity for the entire region," says Walker.

Ultimately, Walker hopes in 20 or 30 years, a Future Made in Australia can be looked back on as a catalyst for a more sustainable future.

"And I mean that both in terms of economically sustainable and societal wellbeing, and in terms of environmentally sustainable. I think if we do this really well, we can build a more circular economy, we can reduce our waste as well as our emissions. We can see small scale manufacturing and pop up factories all over the place. There are some really, really interesting and pretty great technologies coming up where, for example, a micro-factory the size of a shipping container can take glass and fabric being recycled from a building site and turn it into a new material to use in a new building on the same site. I'd like to see huge and widespread adoption of renewables [energy]. And I'm hoping that when we look back, we see not only that resilient infrastructure within Australia, but a booming export market for those products as well, ranging right through from the energy and the fuels, through to those slightly value added up the chain minerals exports, green agricultural exports as well, and a range of other stuff which, frankly, you and I haven't heard of because it probably hasn't been invented yet."

In the podcast Walker also talks about where a Future Made in Australia comes from, what's behind it, what needs to happen for Australia to become a renewable energy superpower, green hydrogen, mining, critical minerals, concerns about a Future Made in Australia picking winners and benefiting billionaires, its national interest framework, research and development, and how Australia can get along in a world of rising geopolitical tensions between the United States and China.

*You can find all episodes of the Of Interest podcast here.

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The fund backing New Zealand's incoming depositor compensation scheme is going to be small, it's going to take a long time to reach its target level, and the lack of depositor preference in the scheme is a mistake, according to a deposit insurance expert.

Geof Mortlock, an international financial regulatory consultant who does work for the International Monetary Fund and World Bank specialising in financial system stability, resolution of bank failures and deposit insurance, spoke about the depositor compensation scheme in a new episode of interest.co.nz's Of Interest podcast.

The scheme, expected to be launched in mid-2025, will provide protection of up to $100,000 per eligible depositor, per licensed bank, building society, credit union and deposit taking finance company, in the event of deposit taker failure.

 Finance Minister Nicola Willis has decided the fund backing the scheme, to be funded through levies paid by deposit takers, will be built up over 20 years to a size equivalent to 0.8% of protected deposits, or about $1 billion.

Mortlock says other countries typically have a fund size equivalent to between about 1% and 4% of protected deposits, and he recommends taking about 10 years to build the fund up to its target level.

He says the NZ scheme would likely be used for the failure of a non-bank deposit taker or small bank, but wouldn't be sufficient for the failure of a medium-sized or big bank, the failure of which would require "alternative mechanisms." Nonetheless Mortlock says it is worth having the scheme.

"I think it's definitely worth having because there are quite a sizable number of small deposit takers out there. And at some stage, one of them is going to fail. Hopefully not for a long time. But statistically, if you look around the world, there are occasional bank failures, and most of them tend to be small."

"For a small deposit taker or a medium sized one, I think having a deposit insurance scheme is really important, and I think it helps in two ways. It reduces the risk of what we call interbank contagion, where one failure can trigger multiple runs across the banking system. And secondly, it helps to reduce the risk for the taxpayer, because it means that there is a dedicated fund paid in by deposit takers and therefore [this] reduces the need for government funding," says Mortlock.

"But for a large bank failure, it is not going to be sufficient. And if you look around the world for a large bank failure, deposit insurance funds are not typically used anyway."

An option for a larger bank failure is the Reserve Bank's Open Bank Resolution (OBR) Policy. In the podcast Mortlock explains why he thinks it would be "potentially catastrophic" for the Reserve Bank to use OBR, and he doesn't think a Finance Minister would allow them to.

In the podcast he also talks about what other resolution options could be for a large bank failure, what products the scheme will cover, the impact deposit takers paying a levy may have on deposit rates, how the Reserve Bank should administer the scheme, bail-in, depositor preference and more.

Under depositor preference, depositors rank ahead of other secured creditors in a liquidation. Mortlock says it helps reduce the risk of runs on banks, and facilitates bail-in whereby unsecured liabilities such as bonds may be written down or converted into equity in the event of a bank failure.

At the moment, with OBR, NZ is "about the only jurisdiction I can think of outside of some dubious ones, which would apply a haircut to deposit liabilities and no depositor preference," Mortlock says.

"So if you're a wholesale depositor in a bank and the banking system is looking shaky, and you know that the OBR is out there and could be triggered, what are you going to do? I think you're going to do a preemptive run. And what would that do? That would almost certainly mean that the [Reserve Bank] Governor, joined by the Minister of Finance, would have to say, a, we're not doing OBR, and b, we are putting in place a temporary guarantee of all wholesale deposits. Just the opposite of what you would want to have to do. So I think it is a foolish policy, OBR, and made even more foolish by the absence of depositor preference."

*You can find all episodes of the Of Interest podcast here.

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Renting in New Zealand today is more difficult than a decade ago, with fewer properties available, rents continuing to increase, and the quality of rental properties not much better, Shamubeel Eaqub says. However, the economist and co-author of the 2015 book Generation Rent, rethinking New Zealand's priorities, says it's not all bad news.

Speaking in the latest episode of interest.co.nz's Of Interest podcast, Eaqub says the "lived reality of renting" has got harder over the past decade, but the regulatory settings are slowly improving.

"We need to ensure there's sufficient renters' rights ... because in New Zealand renting is so insecure and is such a problematic thing for so many people."

One area giving Eaqub optimism is the rise of build to rent, where landlords must offer 10-year rental tenancy agreements.

"I've been a long time fan of institutional landlords rather than accidental landlords. When you are in the business of land lording, you want to have as little turnover as possible, whereas if you're an accidental landlord, you are much more interested in having quick turnover and being able to sell it off and all those other bits and pieces. The tenant is kind of incidental to the story and a bit of an annoyance, really."

Eaqub says build to rent offers two types of security; tenure security and financial security.

"Because more often than not [build to rent] will come with contracts that will have a known level of [rental] increase for the next, say three years, so you can plan your finances. Whereas in a normal tenancy you have only certainty for 12 months and then you don't know what will happen next."

Build to rent is adding new housing supply targeted for one particular use, which he says is unusual in NZ.

"If you look at what happens in New Zealand, or how it has generally happened in New Zealand in the past, it's the idea of filtering, right? You build houses which are for new homes and for rich people, and then the older homes that are secondhand, that kind of gets recycled into the rental market."

"So I'm very encouraged to see this new supply that's coming in, that's very much targeted towards renting specifically. Because if you think about the pressures that we see in terms of emergency housing, social housing and all those kinds of things, that's happening because people are falling out of the rental market, because the rental market is short supplied and is very expensive. And so the more we can do to get more supply directly and retained in the rental market, the better it is," Eaqub says.

He also talks about his disappointment at the fracturing of the Labour-National consensus on medium density residential standards (MDRS).

"[The consensus] showed me for the first time the grown-up-ness of the way that our politicians can respond to structural problems, that we can put aside our political differences and just do something because it's the right thing to do, not because you're on one side of the House or the other. But that grown up moment of politics lasted very, very briefly, and we threw it away at the first chance when the election campaign started," Eaqub says.

In the podcast Eaqub also talks about NIMBYS, the construction sector, what's driving rents, problems with local government, his views on rent controls, the accommodation supplement, emergency housing, what the rental market may be like for his kids' generation, and more.

*You can find all episodes of the Of Interest podcast here.

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With economic growth no longer producing benefits seen in the past such as raising living standards for the middle class, and human activity having exceeded some planetary boundaries, it's time to embrace degrowth, argues Jennifer Wilkins.

Wilkins is a researcher and advocate on sustainability in business with a focus on degrowth. In a new episode of interest.co.nz's Of Interest podcast, she discusses the degrowth movement.

"Degrowth is normally described or defined as an equitable downscaling of production and consumption. Other people add in other parts of that definition, which is about reorganising the market for a new role in provisioning. So I think about degrowth as being a transition. Starting from the economy that we have now, which is very much about trickle down wealth and extracting from nature, to a future economy which is more about universal wellbeing in an economy within ecology and nature. And degrowth is really the transition from one to the other," Wilkins says.

"So I don't think about it as being a very rapid change or a very smooth change. I think about it as being a hybrid of emergence and receding ideas, quite a lot of tension and a lot of mutation in the economy. So it's quite a complex thing, degrowth."

She traces degrowth's origins to the 1970s, and Romanian mathematician, statistician, economist and author of The Entropy Law, Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen, "the father of ecological economics."

The push for net zero greenhouse gas emissions is needed but not enough, Wilkins says. With a degrowth economy requiring more of a collective than individual approach, Wilkins says "the jury's out on the role of capitalism." And does advocating for a reduction in production and consumption mean people would be expected to accept a lower standard of living?

"I think degrowth is definitely looking to raise standards of living for the majority of people around the world. I think standards of living are actually decreasing at the moment. I think around the world, middle class lifestyles are decreasing in quality. And so there's this myth, if you like, that raising growth improves wellbeing. But the evidence shows that there's actually a bliss point. Economic growth improves wellbeing up to a certain GDP per capita, and beyond that, it either doesn't make a difference and/or eventually it begins to reduce wellbeing," says Wilkins.

"The bliss point is actually quite a lot lower than New Zealand's GDP per capita. So we have theoretically enough wealth already. We just need to redistribute it. I think people who are very well off will not see a reduction in their wellbeing or their living standards through a redistribution, but I think people who are less well off will see a great improvement in their wellbeing through a redistribution."

Wilkins believes degrowth will become public policy, saying politicians who want to run on a degrowth platform have lots of positive things they can say.

"It's about redefining what we see as value. I mean, at the moment we think about wealth as value and prosperity, but prosperity is really about things like having more leisure time, having a healthier natural environment around us, having more community health and more community cohesion, having more access to services and assets, and having an increase in our democratic participation. And those are all things that degrowth wishes to grow," Wilkins says.

"I think it [degrowth] will become public policy. I think parties will run on it as a platform. It's hard to say when that would happen, but I think in the not too distant future. And I think the thing is that growth as an idea is so embedded as a common sense that it never has to explain itself. And so there's a bit of an unfair playing field in terms of degrowth will have to explain itself to become credible. Whereas growth gets a free pass."

"Growth is not producing the effects that we have experienced in the past, like the raising the living standards of the middle class. That ship has sailed. We're in a different world now. There isn't room for growth to create those kinds of benefits anymore. We need to create benefits in a different way. So growth will fail to evidence itself as a wellbeing, a process for wellbeing in future. And there'll be a confluence of factors. There'll be, you know, this failure of neoliberalism, which I think we're already experiencing," says Wilkins.

There's more from Wilkins in the podcast itself, including what degrowth would mean for individuals, businesses and communities, and what it would mean for agriculture, manufacturing and tourism.

*You can find all episodes of the Of Interest podcast here.

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For open banking to really grab people's attention the focus needs to be on the services it can enable, rather than the technology behind it, says Andrew Dentice.

In the latest episode of interest.co.nz's Of Interest podcast, Dentice, a technology lawyer and partner at HudsonGavinMartin, discusses the data sharing that enables open banking, what open banking actually is, why progress towards it has been slow in New Zealand, what's going on with open banking overseas, the threat and opportunity of open banking for banks, the benefits of it for consumers, and more.

One of the points he makes is consumers need to be put at the heart of it.

"If you're talking about APIs [application programming interfaces] and bank account information, it's not exactly the most sexy conversation to be having," Dentice says. "We have to put the consumer front and centre, have a look at some of these really amazing use cases that are starting to come out, and get people excited about it. And then that drives the [banking] industry to do more as well." 

"I think you've almost got to separate the open banking technology itself from the stuff that it enables," says Dentice.

"That technology itself is actually not that exciting as a consumer. APIs have been around for years. As a consumer, I don't really see that. What I see is the cool new app, the Sharesies, the Monzo, the Wise in market, that when I go and use it gives me a really fantastic, brand new experience."

"We're never going to get people excited with the underlying tech around open banking. We're going to get them excited around the use cases that it's driving. So it's kind of an enablement layer rather than new technology in itself," Dentice says.

Asked what the banking experience might look like for consumers in five to 10 years time if open banking really takes off in NZ, Dentice says better, more competitive, more interesting product offerings would be a great outcome.

"I would hope that there's a range of new, great, innovative New Zealand fintechs that are able to drive their business models off the back of this. I'd also hope that the great companies from overseas see New Zealand as a market that they want to enter. There's some larger [overseas] fintechs like Revolut and others coming into the market. I think if we have that open banking framework all up and running, then it makes New Zealand a much more likely place [where] the big players will come in and offer more competition."

He also thinks service from incumbent banks could be better and more competitive.

"I saw recently HSBC basically launched a competitor to Wise in that FX [foreign exchange] space. So there's the fintechs kind of coming in cutting [banks'] lunch, and then the banks' trying to cut the lunch back."

"And then I think digital first financial services means that people just have a better understanding of their money, their financial position. Financial literacy is really important. There's some great fintechs who are doing things with kids in that space, like SquareOne and Banqer."

"So there's a societal benefit to it, as well as a pure kind of competition and innovation benefit as well," Dentice says.

*You can find all episodes of the Of Interest podcast here.

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Finance spokesperson Barbara Edmonds says a re-elected Labour Government would have been willing to expand its planned public sector cuts to protect key programmes. 

The tax lawyer turned MP spoke on Interest.co.nz’s Of Interest podcast about the Coalition’s fiscal policy and her role in rebuilding the Labour Party after its election defeat. 

Part of that project will be rehabilitating the party’s economic credibility after presiding over a massive cost of living crisis. 

Ipsos’ February issues poll showed inflation, or the cost of living, was the number one issue facing New Zealand voters and only 23% saw Labour as being best able to deal with it. 

Only 22% thought it was the best party at “managing the economy” down from 31% a year ago and well below the National Party which has climbed from 42% to 47%.

The parties which have formed the Coalition Government campaigned on bringing down spending and therefore inflation, as well as cutting taxes for some groups. 

Edmonds agreed there was a need to consolidate spending—which had got ahead of revenue during the past three years—but tax cuts were a bad investment. 

Labour’s fiscal plan asked for up to 2% reductions in public sector budgets, while the Coalition Government is asking for up to 7.5%.

She admits her party would have had to make further cuts, given new Treasury forecasts showing tax revenue falling below pre-election forecasts. 

“If we had to make more cuts, or look at different savings, in order to ensure that lunches in schools kept going … we would have had to make those decisions,” she said. 

“I wouldn't apologize for making those types of choices. But what I wouldn't have done is promised really unaffordable tax cuts”.

Edmonds said the limited money available was better invested in infrastructure, schools, healthcare, public and private transport, and climate action.

Which tax? 

Edmonds said she was out meeting with key sector leaders and listening to new ideas she can carry back to Labour's policy council. 

Her role was to guide her colleagues through the process of developing a manifesto for 2026 and informing them about the costs and tradeoffs involved. 

“If I need to say no, I’ll say no. I’m a mum of eight, I know how to say no,” she said. 

“Ultimately, if I believe that it's going to put Labour into a difficult fiscal position going into the next election, I will make those views very clearly known”.

Labour recently voted against a bill put forward by Te Pāti Māori, which would have removed the GST from all food, on the basis that it was too expensive.

But the big policy question is about tax. Political opposition to taxes on capital has been the unslayable dragon of New Zealand politics.

Tax reform is back on the table but Edmonds won’t be drawn on exactly what kind.

She said it was necessary to first ask what the party was trying to achieve and then design a tax model that supported those outcomes.

The country will be facing some serious fiscal challenges by 2060 when superannuation could cost 10% of GDP and healthcare could absorb another 7%.

“2060 looks like ages away, but that’s the next generation. That’s my kids. So, we need to ask, what is the society that we want to leave this generation and how does tax help us get there?” 

The Treasury and the International Monetary Fund have both made recommendations about possible reforms, but Labour would be starting from scratch based on its long-term vision for New Zealand. 

Edmonds said political parties don’t win elections based on tax policy, anyway. 

“You win on committing to a better health system, better education, making sure the vulnerable are supported, and that our businesses are able to grow,” she said.

You can find all episodes of the Of Interest podcast here.

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The departing Chief Executive of the Insurance Council of New Zealand says if Wellington is hit with an earthquake on a similar scale to the Canterbury quakes, it would “raise some questions” on whether NZ insurers would be able to continue to purchase reinsurance at an affordable cost.

“I think reinsurers would still be there. But the ability to purchase reinsurance at a good rate and the degree of capacity that would be available, particularly for property in Wellington, could be really challenging,” he says in a new episode of interest.co.nz’s Of Interest podcast.

“Ensuring how we manage that risk is really critical because we're very dependent on offshore capital and reinsurance to help support our insurance programs in New Zealand.”

The Insurance Council says to date, private insurers have incurred over $21 billion in expenses due to the Canterbury Earthquakes.

Toka Tū Ake EQC has contributed an additional $10 billion, resulting in a total insured cost surpassing $31 billion for the event. 

The Insurance Council estimates the overall economic losses for the entire sequence are estimated to exceed $40 billion.

This week marks the conclusion of Grafton's nearly 12-year tenure as CEO of the Insurance Council and he reflected on his time in the role on the podcast.

He says lessons were learnt from the 2010 and 2011 Canterbury Earthquakes, which were then applied to responses to the Kaikōura earthquake in 2016 and the Auckland floods and Cyclone Gabrielle last year as well.

“When that [Kaikōura] earthquake struck, which was just a little bit after midnight, I think, on the 14th November, a lot of people were thrown out of bed almost by the earthquake in Wellington. And after the shaking stopped, I rang my counterpart at EQC Ian Simpson [EQC’s Chief Executive at the time] and said, ‘we’ve got to do better than Canterbury and can we meet in a few hours and work out where we go from here’,” he says.

“So, within four weeks, we had the foundations of an agreement which enabled insurers to manage and settle claims on behalf of EQC. And that meant that for the customer, there was one point of accountability and responsibility for their claims, their insurer. And so it didn't matter whether it was an EQC claim or an insurer claim, they didn't get bounced around between the two.”

“So from that, we then developed a more formal and longer lasting agreement with EQC to be their agents. And I think also the experience of those events from Canterbury through to Kaikōura, meant that when the Auckland anniversary floods and Cyclone Gabrielle came along, we were well seasoned in dealing with these kinds of situations.”

Kris Faafoi will be the Insurance Council’s new Chief Executive from next week. Faafoi held a number of portfolios during the Sixth Labour Government before he quit politics in 2022, including Commerce and Consumer Affairs, Broadcasting and Media, Immigration and Civil Defence.

You can find all episodes of the Of Interest podcast here.

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In five years' time we would see things we can't imagine today if the Government adopts the Commerce Commission's recommendations to boost competition for personal banking services, Commission Chairman John Small says.

Speaking about the Commission's draft report from its banking market study in the latest episode of interest.co.nz's Of Interest podcast, Small says he'll be interested to see what sort of response the Commission gets from the big four banks, ANZ, ASB, BNZ and Westpac, who it says are an oligopoly who don't face strong competition.

"We haven't accused them of doing anything nefarious. They're responding to the incentives that are in front of them. And we think that they've settled into a particular pattern of conduct that we think should be disrupted. But we don't blame them for that," Small says.

"I'll be really interested to see what they do have to say about it."

The Commission makes 16 recommendations in its draft report, and says they should be considered as a whole. He's optimistic about what the market for personal banking services could look like five years from now if the Government was to adopt them all. 

"We would see things that we just can't imagine today. So if open banking is operational within a couple of years, if Kiwibank has already been disruptive, then I think we've set the industry up for a really healthy, competitive future that will be greatly beneficial to New Zealanders throughout their economy. And that [interest] rates will be sharper, and the range of services will be much wider and the choice between providers, trusted providers, will be much wider as well. So I would see it as being really positive five years from now," says Small.

In the podcast Small also discloses which three of the Commission's 16 recommendations he believes are most important. With the Commission recommending the Reserve Bank review its bank regulatory capital settings, he also discusses dialogue with the Reserve Bank about this, and wanting them to "think really carefully about the competitive aspects of their decisions."

He also talks about why the big four banks don't face strong competition, what could be done to make Kiwibank a disruptive competitor, how the banking industry hasn't disrupted itself via open banking, customers moving between banks, the competitive landscape for home loans versus deposits, his take on the idea of a windfall profits tax on banks, and what a parliamentary select committee bank inquiry could probe. 

*You can find all episodes of the Of Interest podcast here.

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With a United States presidential election looming in November, Patrick Watson, Senior Economic Analyst at Mauldin Economics, says it's difficult to say what the key economic battleground will be because many voters are "living in their own realities."

Speaking in a new episode of interest.co.nz's Of Interest podcast, Watson says there's not a great deal of agreement on whether the US economy is even in good or bad shape.

"If you ask Democrats, they mostly say the economy is fantastic. If you ask Republicans, they say the economy is terrible. I think it's somewhere in between. I think that's what the data actually shows," Watson says.

The election is expected to be a rematch between incumbent Democrat Joe Biden, and his Republican predecessor Donald Trump.

"On the Trump side, they have not really announced a great deal of specific policy. So that's kind of a mystery. We know what the Biden administration has done and says they will do. People can like it or not like it, but they at least know. So what we do know from the Republican Trump side is he wants to further restrict immigration. He will probably resume the various trade war and tariff measures that he was doing last time and possibly more aggressively," Watson says.

"But again, the difficulty is people aren't operating from reality. People are operating from their own predispositions, what they think is happening. So that makes it hard to predict."

Asked whether the average American is feeling as if they're doing well at the moment, Watson says this is a really interesting question.

"The survey data that's out there is really confusing, because when they ask people, how is your situation, how are you doing financially in your own family and household? Most people, pretty solid majorities, over 60% are saying, 'I'm great, I'm in a good spot.' But then if you ask them how do you think the economy is doing overall for everyone else, they become very bearish. They think it's terrible. So it's hard to see how both of those are true at the same time," says Watson.

In the podcast Watson also talks about this week's Federal Open Market Committee (FOMC) monetary policy review and the outlook for interest rate cuts, the US inflation picture including housing's role in its stickiness, what's going on in US share markets, regional economic performance in the US, challenges in the US labour market, and the influence of the Inflation Reduction Act.

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The "cheer squad" make it hard to have a proper debate on housing, especially when looking to address the question of what we want from the housing market from a public policy perspective.

So says Cameron Murray, Chief Economist at Fresh Economic Thinking, a new Australian think-tank. In the latest episode of interest.co.nz's Of Interest podcastMurray talks about housing and his new book The Great Housing Hijack. He describes the housing markets and attitudes to housing in Australia and New Zealand as "culturally very similar in terms of the attitude to housing."

Murray, who has been a real estate agent, property investor and worked for FKP Property Group, says his book title essentially describes the state of the public debate in housing.

"There are so many vested interests, so many different groups and hobby horses that have lobbied, professionally or not for many decades, that it is very hard to have a straight conversation about housing in a public forum. So that is the housing hijack," he says.

"The housing hijack is all about what I call in the book the cheer squad, these noisy people on the sideline distracting us from the game of housing and, rather than understanding the plays and the strategy of the game, we're getting distracted by the noise of the cheer squad."

In the podcast Murray talks about why we should acknowledge the post-World War II to mid-1970s period was an unusual golden age in housing, what he sees as the five housing market equilibria, why he doesn't believe simply freeing up land and loosening zoning rules to enable housing supply is the silver bullet, KiwiBuild and the politics of housing.

Murray proposes HouseMate, a parallel public homeownership system alongside purchase and rental in the private property market. It would offer non-property owner citizens the option to buy a home from a public provider at a cheap price.

"The reason to propose this is simply that I couldn't find any examples anywhere in history or anywhere in the world where we'd sold housing for that group, that 10% or 15% of people who are renters, who are getting squeezed every time the market adjusts and people's incomes are rising. I couldn't find any examples where those people's housing had been improved without a public option of some sort. Whether that's regulated rental, like Vienna, where there's massive council housing and it's somewhat universal, anyone can access it. Or whether it's public housing home ownership, which is more of a Singapore type approach. Europeans have long term rental, but I think culturally, the Australians and the Kiwis would go for a home ownership type approach," he says.

"At the end of the day, we have to accept the economics that there is a subsidy exactly equal to the difference between the market price and what you get people into that home at. There is no sneaking around this economically."

"If I could find a way to just change zoning regulations and taxes and make housing cheap for those people, I would do it. Like, who wouldn't? It would be so easy. But I've spent decades looking around trying to understand housing, and in the last four years looking for examples around the world, and I just can't find them. I'm sorry. So we have to do it the hard way," says Murray.

*You can find all episodes of the Of Interest podcast here.

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