In this episode, Nick speaks with Cliff Washington. Cliff is a podcast host and an art director/brand strategist who’s worked in or around advertising and creative agencies for many years. They discuss what it was like growing up in upstate New York, then spending 15+ years in the city, and how he went from growing up in church to exploring how other religions and people lead their lives, ultimately helping him to shape the life he leads now.

About Cliff Washington

Cliff, share a bit about yourself with us!

“I’m a multi-hyphenate. A creative leader, art director, designer, strategist, illustrator, beatmaker, podcaster, speaker (did I miss anything? lol). I was a creative professional in NYC for 16 years, I worked in fashion, radio, advertising, media, and entertainment to name a few industries. I’ve worked with companies including Townsquare Media, ViacomCBS, Essence Media, and Hot97. I’m Constantly seeking to know myself better and heal from the past. Love a good belly laugh too.”

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Your Friends at “The Mindset & Self-Mastery Show”

00:00:08:13 – 00:00:33:29

Nick McGowan

Hello and welcome to The Mindset and Self-mastery Show. I’m your host, Nick McGowan. And on this show, my guests and I unpack the stories that shape us and the lives that we lead on our path to self-mastery. Today on the show, we have Cliff Washington. Cliff is a podcast host and an art director slash brand strategist who’s worked in and around advertising creative agencies for many years.

00:00:34:12 – 00:00:55:01

Nick McGowan

We discussed what it was like growing up in upstate New York, then spending 15 plus years in the city and how we went from growing up in church to exploring how other religions and and just other people lead their lives, ultimately helping him to shape the life that he leads now. So let’s not wait any longer. Let the games begin.

00:00:58:09 – 00:00:59:13

Nick McGowan

Cliff, welcome.

00:00:59:13 – 00:01:01:06

Nick McGowan

To the show. Man. How are you?

00:01:02:00 – 00:01:03:21

Cliff Washington

Thank you. Nick I’m doing great. How are you?

00:01:04:09 – 00:01:25:04

Nick McGowan

I’m great. Great. So, Cliff, we were kind of joking a little bit before we hit record that it feels like we’ve known each other for maybe a couple of months at times, maybe a couple years. But realistically, I think it’s been about two years. And you were like, Yeah, man, COVID time. And you’re totally right. Like, for the most part, since all this COVID stuff every day kind of feels like a Wednesday like.

00:01:25:04 – 00:01:34:06

Nick McGowan

And sometimes I think, like, man, I don’t have any meetings today. It must be the weekend. You kind of feel the same with that. I know you kind of work. Work a lot, too.

00:01:35:12 – 00:01:54:21

Cliff Washington

Well, yeah, because yesterday I you know, I kind of forgot it was Friday the week. So in the middle of the week when that went to the city, because right now I’m in upstate New York, I’m on a bit of a sabbatical from the city. I’ve been there for six years, but I went back Wednesday for a conversation with this guy.

00:01:54:21 – 00:02:21:10

Cliff Washington

I know who’s who he used to be executive creative director for ad agency in New York, and now he’s in the C-suite as chief experience design officer who is giving a talk at Ogilvy in New York. And and I saw it on LinkedIn and went down great day. He’s a really great guy. I met a lot of great people, do some good networking, but yeah, they kind of messed up my week because when I came back it was like, you know, the next day on Thursday, going back and into the, into the regular work week.

00:02:21:26 – 00:02:36:22

Cliff Washington

And by time, like I said, by the time I got to Friday, it was just like, what day is it? Oh, shoot, it’s the weekend. The next day is Saturday. Wow. And then, you know, it was another late night agency night till like 12:00 at night. So that just throws me off.

00:02:38:04 – 00:02:47:29

Nick McGowan

Yeah, I know that life can look like. And we were talking a bit about that as well. So why don’t you give some context, Cliff? Tell us what you do for a living. And one thing that most people don’t know about you.

00:02:49:00 – 00:03:11:22

Cliff Washington

So my name is Cliff Washington. I am an art director and brand strategist. I currently work with an agency, ad agency up in California from upstate New York. And like I said, I was in the city for in New York City for 16 years as a creative professional. One thing that people may not know about me is I’m the first in my immediate family to graduate college.

00:03:13:16 – 00:03:23:19

Nick McGowan

Wow. Was that something that you wanted to do as a kid? I know there are certain kids that are like, man, I want to be the first one or is it something you just kind of worked your way into?

00:03:24:20 – 00:03:52:12

Cliff Washington

I mean, when I was a kid, all I wanted to do was, you know, play. Play college basketball. That’s what I remember the most. So, yeah, I wanted to go to Syracuse University and play in the Carrier Dome and have Jim Boeheim from my coach. But, you know, athletically, that wasn’t the route. And in terms of I mean, my mom, she wanted college for me even more than than I did because, you know, we come from a very much working class background.

00:03:52:26 – 00:04:00:14

Cliff Washington

So to be the first, it was pretty cool. I mean, that was something that was definitely on my mind going into college.

00:04:02:16 – 00:04:04:25

Nick McGowan

Yeah. So what happened with with college ball?

00:04:06:10 – 00:04:33:02

Cliff Washington

Oh, well, like in high school, it’s funny because I was always the tallest kid in my class till about, I want to say eighth grade or so. And I just kind of stopped growing. And by the time I got to like freshman junior varsity, I was switching over from, like, power forward center to a shooting guard. But all my skills had developed throughout the years were more for like a forward center position.

00:04:33:02 – 00:04:54:07

Cliff Washington

So all the ball handling and shooting and everything, you know, it was kind of like starting all over again. And then I wasn’t necessarily like super focused on that because I’d split a lot of the time between like art and music and such. And then later on, I had issues with one of the coaches and, and being a bit of a jackass.

00:04:54:18 – 00:05:18:24

Cliff Washington

So, but at the end of the day, it was more so that I think my passion wasn’t necessarily in it to, you know, to put in those hours for, for that. And yeah, it wasn’t necessarily the path, which is fine and also really battling a lot of confidence issues. That was kind of half of what I dealt with playing basketball with, not having confidence.

00:05:18:24 – 00:05:35:10

Cliff Washington

It’s funny because probably within the last three years playing basketball, I developed confidence and and acceptance and the skills that I have and it’s made me play like a lot better than I ever used to, which is odd. You know, all these years later.

00:05:36:29 – 00:06:00:19

Nick McGowan

You can kind of settle into it. You know, at this point, there’s not that pressure. Like, I didn’t play high school sports. I played sports growing up. By the time I got to high school, I was like, I don’t want to deal with the politics. I’m good. And and that was a lot of politics. You know, I had friends that did it and that probably went through the same thing you did where it was a matter of the travel ball going to do different things and and having a lot of that pressure.

00:06:00:23 – 00:06:22:17

Nick McGowan

So I could imagine years later we just playing streetball or just LA Fitness ball basically at that point, what pressure do you have besides just being you? And when you think to what great coaches talk about with their players, they say, Just go out and play. Just go do it. You know? And I think we can take some of that even into our businesses.

00:06:22:17 – 00:06:40:04

Nick McGowan

We can take that into the jobs that we have where, you know, we were talking a bit about the agency life and how there’s some sometimes where it just it can be stressful, super stressful. So how do you take that confidence that you have and that that way to be able to kind of pull yourself back? Gary Cool.

00:06:40:05 – 00:06:47:06

Nick McGowan

I’m here. No pressure. Let me just rock and roll with that. Do you feel like you can translate that into other things now or or not?

00:06:48:05 – 00:07:09:09

Cliff Washington

So let me give you this analogy. I don’t even know if it’s necessarily analogy, but one of the issues I had in basketball was overthinking. It’s like I could do a lot of working on my handling at home in the basement, and then when I’m in the game and I’m thinking to myself, okay, am I dribbling right? Let me make sure I don’t dribble it off my foot.

00:07:09:09 – 00:07:33:18

Cliff Washington

So as you overthink about that, then you dribble it off your foot. So it can kind of be the same thing in business and whatever skill or craft it is that you’re working on. It’s like when you put the time in, you put the work in while you’re practicing whatever that skill or craft is, you don’t necessarily in the moment have to keep harping back on, okay, make sure I’m doing this.

00:07:33:18 – 00:07:51:16

Cliff Washington

Step one is right and then step two is like having the faith in yourself to believe that since you put the work in, you can kind of effortlessly participate in in whatever it is that you’re doing. And it will naturally your skill will naturally show.

00:07:52:22 – 00:08:13:17

Nick McGowan

Yeah, yeah. There’s the confidence that comes from just knowing your shit, whatever it is, just go. And I know that. I know the things that I know. So I’m bringing these into the mix. How do you work with your your newer role and the projects that you have kind of managing your mindset in that sort of like?

00:08:13:17 – 00:08:39:07

Cliff Washington

I think the number one thing at this point is having an understanding of the role within the context of the particular company I’m working at and you know, knowing when to fight against the tide and knowing when to roll with the tide. And that has again has to do with a sort of Hulk Hogan, I say it, a social awareness, right.

00:08:39:25 – 00:09:12:14

Cliff Washington

You know, when it comes to the politics of a particular place and then also your own kind of self awareness and what you can deal with because, you know, there’s a lot of time, there’s two routes when you’re at some place that presents challenges. Either it’s to just accept it and understand that you can’t change something and not try to control it or take off and leave, you know, so understanding what I can do and what I can’t do and what I can fight against to go against the grain.

00:09:12:14 – 00:09:45:09

Cliff Washington

And when I can’t go against the grain and it takes some maneuvering and it takes some kind of feeling out the temperature, which can be uncomfortable, but you kind of have to do that to be able to navigate a particular place. And then also one of the biggest things is boundaries. And that’s, I guess, with any point in life, but specifically in the workplace, to kind of let your boundaries be known, to whether it’s your higher ups or coworkers.

00:09:45:09 – 00:09:55:06

Cliff Washington

And because that’s one thing that people will test if it’s not set, you know, pretty early on about about what your boundaries are.

00:09:57:26 – 00:10:16:26

Nick McGowan

To good point with boundaries since everything happened with COVID and people either went hybrid and remote remote working and working in an office and having to go and every once in a while with the other people that all just are completely remote at this point. It can feel like you’re on an island and it can feel like you’re doing things by yourself.

00:10:16:26 – 00:10:46:04

Nick McGowan

But there is you got to be able to stand up and say something and set those boundaries. I talk to different people at times that feel like they’re abused by the people they work with because they just expect that they’re always on doing the things. And for the most part, being in a newer role. There’s a balance to that where like you don’t know what that what everybody else is doing, you know, you know how everybody else is working.

00:10:46:13 – 00:10:58:29

Nick McGowan

So how are you balance in your mindset right now and of figuring out the lay of the land, what you should, what you shouldn’t be doing and actually what aligns with you without just cutting, cutting and running and being like, I don’t like any of this. I’m out.

00:11:00:24 – 00:11:30:28

Cliff Washington

Well, well, for one to some freelance, there’s a certain amount of flexibility that you can have. And also working on teams, you know, on the weekend, if it’s not made known that there needs to be help for a particular project or something. I just teams on Do Not Disturb and then I don’t get any messages and I’ll just get it Sunday night or Monday morning or something, you know, and if it’s, if it’s urgent enough, they’ll just like call me or something like that.

00:11:32:12 – 00:11:47:17

Cliff Washington

But in terms of some of the other boundaries, there was another point I was going to make, but I think it’s just about trying to have real conversations with people. And what was your question? You know, and make sure I hit it right.

00:11:49:06 – 00:12:11:00

Nick McGowan

Well, for the most part, you kind of hit some of it. And I think the boundaries thing is really what we’re talking about going through, because there are boundaries that you can set within yourself, but being brand new to a place you can be unsure of what the boundaries should be and not wanting to be like, Hey, I know I’m new here, but I don’t want to do that without understanding, like how to go about it.

00:12:11:12 – 00:12:28:03

Nick McGowan

Then you toss it in the mix freelance because at that point somebody can’t say, Hey, your W-2, this is what you have to do. Yeah, it’s kind of a freelance state. And it’s interesting how things have moved in that direction because there are a lot of people that are like, Look, I don’t want to work here anymore. I’m going to go freelance or I’m going to go do this, I’m going to do that.

00:12:28:16 – 00:12:40:27

Nick McGowan

And I think to get outside of the boundaries a bit, I think there are certain people that are really frustrated in what they’re doing and don’t know exactly what they want to do, but they’re afraid to dig deeper into it. So they just say, Fuck it, I’m out.

00:12:41:13 – 00:12:41:22

Cliff Washington

Okay?

00:12:41:22 – 00:12:43:23

Nick McGowan

And I think that was going to be a mindset thing.

00:12:44:04 – 00:13:04:29

Cliff Washington

I had a conversation with an old coworker. She is at the Tamron Hall show now. Actually she was on the last episode of my podcast. Check it out when you get a chance created life, spotify, apple, blah, blah, blah. Her name is Miranda Johnson. But you know, I was asking her, you know, how she a similar question. How do you deal with that type of stuff?

00:13:04:29 – 00:13:28:01

Cliff Washington

And her answer to me was, my eyes are always on the prize, you know, in terms of her wanting to be able to start her own thing, you know, or a certain position that she has in mind for her future so that keep that kept her from just throwing her hands up and walking out the door because on her way to where she wants to get to, she has to be able to take care of her son.

00:13:28:01 – 00:14:01:27

Cliff Washington

You know, she has a family and, you know, she just bought a house, yada, yada. So, you know, within reason, she’s able to compartmentalize and separate also. So she’s not stressing herself to the point of of the job becoming like physically and mentally unhealthy for her. So again, to as much as she can to be able to focus on what her ultimate goal is and to not let anybody kind of steal her joy in the process of of getting there.

00:14:02:09 – 00:14:28:11

Cliff Washington

So that’s kind of what I try to do. I try to like I’ll give you a concrete example. It’s like when I get frustrated with something and I’m about to like, you know, get to that point of like rage or something like that. I say, you know, okay, is it worth bringing up this type of stress, this type of cortisol induced discomfort for this thing?

00:14:28:25 – 00:14:35:23

Cliff Washington

It does this thing I’m been getting stressed about really has some type of huge bearing on my life, you know what I mean?

00:14:36:13 – 00:14:36:20

Nick McGowan

Yeah.

00:14:37:13 – 00:15:06:02

Cliff Washington

So it’s a balance between setting your boundaries and talking to people face to face or over audio about how you actually feel about something and you know, how you how you feel something like went down and what you felt was possibly not right or whatever. And then also being like, you know, this isn’t worth me, this isn’t worth me getting my health all out of whack for.

00:15:06:02 – 00:15:18:08

Cliff Washington

And I need to focus on my ultimate goal. But at the same time, you know, being a be making sure that you’re keep your eyes open for other places, that might be a little bit more healthy for you.

00:15:19:08 – 00:15:47:16

Nick McGowan

Sure, sure. Yeah. Without constantly looking at is the grass greener somewhere else without being able to run away from it. And I know that you from what I know of you, you err on the side of service and love instead of going at somebody. So for the people that are out there that are kind of in similar spots and trying to work through that and figure out what their boundaries are, but don’t really want to just instantly be like, Nope, fuck you, that’s not right.

00:15:47:16 – 00:15:53:16

Nick McGowan

Doesn’t work with me. How would you suggest they go about that?

00:15:53:16 – 00:16:22:22

Cliff Washington

That’s a good question. So, yes, I air on the side of, you know, love and support. So I always try to lead with that. But I also know that I have the disciplinary daddy in me that will come out if if prodded and pushed in that sort of way. So that’s the last resort, but it’s there if, if needed.

00:16:22:22 – 00:17:00:12

Cliff Washington

But I think that there is a certain corporate speak that I try to also keep in my pocket where, you know, you can kind of say a few without necessarily saying F-you or try to like, you know, make sure people know where you stand, but also, I know that given where I’ve come from and my history and the things that I’ve dealt with, I also have to look at myself and say, All right, did you not understand something right in a certain situation or did you miss something?

00:17:00:12 – 00:17:33:00

Cliff Washington

Or I have to leave that door open that, you know, maybe there was something I didn’t do, right? So if I can have that clarity that can help me, you know, maybe not completely lose my cool if it’s something that I could have done better. So once I kind of go through those filters, I think that I get to a place where that helps and guide me when it comes to being less reactive, but again, keeping it in my back pocket.

00:17:33:00 – 00:17:37:26

Cliff Washington

If you know I need to bring out Stern Daddy, then it’s is there to.

00:17:40:06 – 00:17:48:27

Nick McGowan

Stern Daddy what you actually grew up with or did you create that character like this? The guy who says fuck no and puts his foot down like stern daddy come from.

00:17:49:26 – 00:18:11:21

Cliff Washington

From a stern daddy, you know, like my my dad grew up in East New York, Brooklyn, and then he grew up on the he wasn’t like of the street, but he grew up in the street. So you had the you had there really set boundaries or you could be taken advantage of really easily. And, you know, I grew up in upstate New York, so, you know that that environment was an up here.

00:18:11:21 – 00:18:34:25

Cliff Washington

So I just kind of had to, you know, I would observe that every now and then. And my dad, when, you know, people would push him a little bit too far. But then also being in New York and how to navigate that environment, you have to have a bit thicker skin and at the same time kind of keep your eye out for what’s coming around the corner.

00:18:34:25 – 00:19:00:04

Nick McGowan

Yeah, that seems like just a regional northeast thing. We just kind of have a paranoia almost just like in a Oh, so why don’t you want to share a couple stories that come to mind or all episodes in life that have helped you kind of shape who you are today, either from being in the city or from when you grew up?

00:19:00:04 – 00:19:29:06

Cliff Washington

Oh, so I would say that part of the story arc of my life is kind of being on a journey to is going to sound kind of cliche in a woo woo, but a journey of self-discovery in the sense of, you know, both my parents grew up well. I’ve started out like this. My dad grew up at a time in New York City where it was very like multicultural immigrant neighborhoods.

00:19:29:06 – 00:19:58:08

Cliff Washington

So at the time, the black families in Brooklyn, or at least that part of Brooklyn where he was were kind of minority, grew up around Jewish people, Italians, Germans, Polish people. My mom grew up in a more predominantly black neighborhood. So when they met in upstate New York and me and my sister came along, we very much had the life that, you know, they wish they had and and suburban slash kind of country area.

00:19:58:08 – 00:20:30:03

Cliff Washington

So growing up, there was a less ability to identify culturally with a lot of African-Americans because we were surrounded by, you know, white kids in school, in the neighborhood. So you kind of grew up with one notion of who you are, but you’re not necessarily treated the way that others are treated in the sense. So then when you go off to college and that was my first time being around, you know, a decent number of black kids.

00:20:30:23 – 00:20:53:03

Cliff Washington

So then culturally you start to learn another thing and you kind of learn about that and soak that in. But in a certain sense, that’s not necessarily who you are. So it’s all this like kind of stuff all mixed in. It wasn’t till I got to New York City where I started to find a tribe down there where it was like it was like this mishmash because it was and I went to school in Connecticut.

00:20:53:03 – 00:21:24:14

Cliff Washington

So in Connecticut, in upstate New York, things are just kind of can be stark and binary. And New York City is just like this. You know, it truly is a melting pot. So I think within that environment where I had to integrate so many sides of myself, I started to get a better sense of who I am. You know, it’s not just, you know, me being black in a white neighborhood or a black kid in a school within a black crowd, but still a sticking out like a sore thumb.

00:21:24:25 – 00:21:51:22

Cliff Washington

It was just this beautiful integration in New York City where I started to feel like, okay, this is the sum total of who I am and it feels natural. And I get to express myself in a natural way without necessarily trying too hard in either direction. And then that’s layered on top of other things when it comes to, you know, different family trauma and everything and trying to heal from that and confidence issues and trying to heal from that.

00:21:52:06 – 00:22:14:18

Cliff Washington

So I think at this point in my life, that kind of makes up the sum total of of who I’ve become. And obviously we’re all continuously developing. And, you know, that’s a nonstop journey till you’re six feet under or whatever. So I think that that’s a decent synopsis of, you know, where I’m at right now.

00:22:14:18 – 00:22:34:22

Nick McGowan

Yeah, that’s a bunch of things that’s happened all strung together to make you who you are. You even said that we’re all rowing, we’re all learning. I wish that to be the case. I hope that is the case. I feel there are certain people that just want to do more of that as they grow up and as they learn.

00:22:35:17 – 00:22:52:23

Nick McGowan

They’re also the other people that allow things to just beat them and just say, Well, that’s that’s how life works. I just get beaten and I don’t want to explore. I don’t want to keep exploring. You keep exploring. Do you think that came from your parents? Did that come from where do you think that came from.

00:22:54:08 – 00:23:25:29

Cliff Washington

To keep exploring? Yes, I think that my mom in particular is someone who she was definitely she is more adventurous than my dad. So she kind of planted that seed of discovery, not necessarily self-discovery, but I think discovery in general. And then I think that, you know, my my older sister was a bit of a hippie, so I think I got a piece of that from her.

00:23:26:16 – 00:24:04:12

Cliff Washington

And then I think going through so I grew up in church like four days a week, you know, like choir rehearsal and Bible study and and there was a soup kitchen that was ran on Fridays and Sunday service, sometimes two services a day. And when I saw that constantly break down in terms of infighting and and backstabbing and all that stuff, then that kind of told me that, all right, all this, but all this was built up to be isn’t turning out.

00:24:05:05 – 00:24:35:04

Cliff Washington

They’re not they aren’t who they say they are. So it’s like, how do I find my own path? You know, not to say that I’m like an atheist or anything like that, but still it’s like, how do I find my own spiritual path? So given that process of evolution within spirituality, it’s like, All right, what other processes of evolution are there outside of the spiritual realm or How does the spiritual evolution connect to other forms of evolution?

00:24:35:04 – 00:25:02:21

Cliff Washington

So it’s just kind of constantly going down that route. And then I saw one of your questions with like it was basically what was a pivotal moment in your life or something or something that instigated a type of change. And that was probably around 2011, 2012, when I think within like a couple a span of a month or two, my dad had passed my girlfriend had left me and I had been laid off from my job.

00:25:03:10 – 00:25:20:27

Cliff Washington

So at that point, it’s kind of like, you know, either you, you know, take a moment to stop, seek some type of help or, you know, you just kind of spend the rest of your days in this, like, personal hell or something like that. So.

00:25:21:12 – 00:25:43:01

Nick McGowan

Yeah, you can’t really just stop there with a yeah. Like there’s a lot more to it than that, you know, that’s, that’s one of those things where some people will say shitty things happen in threes or deaths happen in threes or whatever. That is a legit. It happened in three for you. So how did you how did you manage growing from there?

00:25:43:01 – 00:26:05:17

Nick McGowan

And as you look back now, ten years, you know, you you lost a couple major pieces, one major piece in your life and then something that kind of uprooted everything from you. So how do you how did you manage your mindset through that course of the time and being able to look at it now and just reflect upon it?

00:26:05:17 – 00:26:41:09

Cliff Washington

Well, I think that what helped a lot was deciding to go to therapy after all that and being and having someone to kind of unleash a lot of that on because I hadn’t really done that before and I think that it it can it’s very difficult to face those moments because I think at the bottom of it, you kind of you get to the point where you really have to look at yourself in the mirror.

00:26:41:16 – 00:27:09:23

Cliff Washington

And that’s kind of the the biggest pain point for, I think, all of us. I don’t think anybody wants to look at themselves and see certain deficiencies or pain or trauma because, you know, you don’t know if you’ll survive that. And very legitimately, some people have not survived that, you know, to have it, some people have it. So I think and also what carried me through that was I had a friend group at the time and I’m still friends with them.

00:27:10:09 – 00:27:31:03

Cliff Washington

And, you know, we had all been kind of going through breakups at the time, too, so we had kind of formed this Les Miserables group that would meet up a couple of times a week and get drinks at a local gentlemen’s kind of cocktail bar. And I don’t mean gentlemen’s as and like strip strip club place, but just like, you know, old style, like gentlemen’s bar.

00:27:31:24 – 00:27:54:05

Cliff Washington

So, you know, having that therapy and friends to kind of release all that helped a lot. And then I discovered meditation around that time and you know, I had read a little bit about it and was highly confused about how it would be helpful. And I had decided that, you know, I’ll try it. I don’t know if it’ll help or not, but I’ll try it and tease me.

00:27:54:05 – 00:28:21:17

Cliff Washington

At first I didn’t really see any type of benefit to it was just like, All right, I’m just sitting here. Excuse me and and I’m sitting here and I can’t really stop my thoughts. And over time, I was able to kind of settle into the practice in the sense of not trying to expect any particular thing out of it and just be able to sit and try to focus on the breath.

00:28:21:17 – 00:28:46:17

Cliff Washington

And when my mind wandered to try to come back to the breath without blame or or putting myself down, and then over time, you know, you start to notice as things change, you start to become more aware of, of and also, I think, age through it as we do with age. But you start to become more aware of either things that trigger you or not to be as triggered by certain things.

00:28:46:17 – 00:29:08:24

Cliff Washington

And and when that happens, you start to gain more confidence in who you are, what you can do, what you can’t do, where you’re deficient, and what you need to work on to relieve those those deficiencies or what deficiencies are just kind of, you know, is part of who you are. So, yeah, I think that was the basic process.

00:29:08:24 – 00:29:39:00

Cliff Washington

Oh, and one more thing is that when it came to the trauma, you know, of my father dying or losing a job or losing a partner, you know, that type of mourning just has to kind of have its own timeline. And I, you know, kind of constantly relearned that is the worst thing to do is kind of hide from that type of grief because it’s going to have its day eventually and you just kind of have to go through it.

00:29:39:00 – 00:29:58:24

Nick McGowan

Yeah. And you talked about it and you talked to somebody. You actually sat down. You took that step to talk to somebody. A lot of people don’t. And I, I go to therapy. I think everybody should you do, you know, think about the the time that you were able to spend actually talking through some of it. Even if somebody didn’t say anything back to you.

00:29:59:03 – 00:30:11:04

Nick McGowan

Just being able to get that out process through some of that, that helps. How did that all relate to your faith? So?

00:30:11:04 – 00:30:49:08

Cliff Washington

Well, the the way I grew up in church, this is going to be a weird way to relate it to it. But it wasn’t necessarily it wasn’t they didn’t it wasn’t nicely upon to go to therapy, basically, at least in the church that I went to. So, you know, if you had to resort to going to therapy and this is within the church and also within black culture, you know, is a moral failing if you can’t just kind of depend on praying, praying it away.

00:30:50:21 – 00:31:18:09

Cliff Washington

And I think that revealed something to me in the sense that and this is kind of on along my my spiritual path in the spiritual journey is that I found out that people would say that because they were afraid of what they might find if they really had to confront themselves instead of just praying in a way or saying that they were trying to pray it away, and that kind of broke down the walls.

00:31:18:09 – 00:31:42:20

Cliff Washington

And when it came to the facade that I got from, you know, the church that I went to. Now on the other side, in terms of how faith relates to therapy, is that and I think I told my mom this before, you know, if if God is responsible for everything, then he’s also responsible for the knowledge and wisdom of therapists.

00:31:43:10 – 00:32:08:05

Cliff Washington

So we shouldn’t have any type of qualms about, you know, seeing a therapist if if you want to go that route. And then also, you know, there’s nothing really new under the sun. Any feelings or emotions that a human has had today? You know, a human has had 10,000 years ago, you know, to a different degree of human development.

00:32:09:04 – 00:32:43:18

Cliff Washington

So I think that when I when I when it comes to, say, Buddhist philosophy or Christian philosophy, I think I take to heart that God, again, has created people with the knowledge and the wisdom who aren’t necessarily your your priest or your pastor that can help you heal from certain traumas. And they don’t even have to believe themselves.

00:32:43:18 – 00:32:52:11

Cliff Washington

It’s just, you know, they were put in that position. So yeah, that’s that’s how I feel about that.

00:32:52:11 – 00:33:14:06

Nick McGowan

It’s so, so interesting with different people play different roles in our lives and I’m there with you. I think God gives us that wisdom and knowledge and understanding, and sometimes that can come from the weirdest spots. Somebody that you run into in a grocery store could say something that’s in context of their own conversation that answers one of your questions.

00:33:14:21 – 00:33:35:05

Nick McGowan

So in that sort of sense, it’s cool to see to me at least it’s cool to see God work through those ways where you’re like, What was that for me? I just catch that. It’s it’s such an interesting thing to think that therapy is a no no. I can understand, like the moral side where the people are afraid.

00:33:35:08 – 00:33:58:03

Nick McGowan

Like, I don’t want to actually explore the, the shit that’s deep inside of me, but you should just put dirt on it and get up, kid. Go back. The, the weird thing with the religious side and I’m Christian and I was in churches for a long time and it really grew up in church, but in my twenties and early thirties played worship lead guitar, so it was in churches.

00:33:58:03 – 00:34:19:06

Nick McGowan

And so a lot of people kind of go through this stage of just wearing masks, but then being things outside of it. I used to make jokes, even Catholic jokes, because I was raised Catholic. It was like, man, they’d all go in. They talk about bake sales and couple of things, and I grab one of the pamphlets in the back and then they’d all walk outside to smoke a cigaret and start yelling at their kids.

00:34:19:24 – 00:34:41:29

Nick McGowan

I remember being like, What is this? How does this make any sense? We can’t let people stop us from the truth. So the truth that we believe to be truth is what we believe it to be without allowing other things to influence that. And we’re you’re smart enough at this point to be able to look back and reflect on some of those things.

00:34:42:15 – 00:34:57:15

Nick McGowan

So when you think of your faith now and all the stuff that’s happened, do you think that you have a stronger understanding of what faith actually means to you, or do you think there’s still more of that human side that you kind of battle through?

00:34:59:05 – 00:35:29:17

Cliff Washington

Oh, yeah. I absolutely have a stronger understanding of my faith, which is, you know, it’s much more complicated than it was when I was in high school. So at this point, I’m pretty much that’s where I would have to put it is agnostic in the sense of I feel like I’ve talked to enough people from a variety of cultures where I think that there are multiple routes to the same thing.

00:35:29:23 – 00:36:12:18

Cliff Washington

You know, whether you’re Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu. And I think that was a big eye opener for me is that there’s so much wisdom and knowledge in a variety of world religions that I think I take heart knowing that because, you know, there are similarities in some of the creation stories, but also big differences too. But I think it sort of grew my faith in the sense of it wasn’t stuck to this one particular thing, you know, because I think, you know, within the Christian faith, like, you know, that feel that they have the one true way to heaven.

00:36:13:20 – 00:36:51:04

Cliff Washington

Protestants think they have the one true way Lutheran thing, you know. But knowing that there are other religions that are trying to explain our existence and have different rules and philosophies that can be helpful and some hurtful, but being able to pick from those the kind of form my spirituality and or at least continuously nourish my spiritual journey is what I have in my faith right now, probably the one that is most prominent in my life right now.

00:36:51:04 – 00:37:27:21

Cliff Washington

And, you know, I think in certain schools, they don’t necessarily consider themselves a religion, but within Buddhism, it’s, I think, brought me a certain amount of peace and a certain amount of understanding of the world makes the most sense to me at this point in my life. Right now, the thing within Christianity that interests me is one, having a better understanding of different texts that talks about that is kind of pre King James translation of things that Jesus was talking about.

00:37:28:02 – 00:37:56:04

Cliff Washington

I think that fascinates me. And then also I have this book that’s kind of like Afrocentric Christianity or something like that. But understanding it from that perspective too has been a bit eye opening because of the way that Christianity was kind of taught within my church growing up in America. So seeing the breadth of understanding of Christianity has been a big help.

00:37:58:15 – 00:38:37:13

Nick McGowan

And it seems like you’ve done a lot of exploring and we’ve kind of covered some of that that comes from your mom, apparently the exploration side. But to be able to actually take these pieces and kind of see what works and what doesn’t work for you, and then kind of do some of the deep work with that. So when you think of doing just deep work in general on yourself and through the body of your own work over the past 15, 20 years, what do you find that you’re actively working on now that maybe you think would have been too hard to conquer years ago?

00:38:37:13 – 00:39:07:08

Cliff Washington

I would say my own like deficiencies and foibles when it comes to overthinking or, you know, learning in a different way when it comes to traditional schooling, that was a source of, you know, great shame. And I think at this point in my life, there’s just an acceptance around it and a better understanding of how I digest information.

00:39:08:03 – 00:39:37:26

Cliff Washington

So with that, I can then participate in things like, say, understanding math from the point of business and budgeting the helps me be able to get better at math overall than necessarily how it was taught in high school through, you know, kind of the traditional institutional structured way of that they taught it. And for some people that worked, for me it didn’t.

00:39:37:26 – 00:40:08:17

Cliff Washington

But understanding, I guess, the real world, the real world perspective of being able to take care of your monthly budget or putting financial goals together or, you know, what it takes to run a business and profit and loss and stuff like that. I think something that I can get my hands around in my own personal life makes that a little bit easier for me to participate in.

00:40:10:06 – 00:40:15:10

Nick McGowan

What would you say would be one piece of advice you would give for somebody that’s on their path toward self-mastery?

00:40:16:06 – 00:40:40:06

Cliff Washington

There is no I feel for true self-mastery. There’s no way around the pain. You just have to walk through it, which is in itself can be traumatizing and very difficult and can test you to the limits of your ability. But I think that is the only one sure way to self-mastery.

00:40:40:06 – 00:40:58:01

Nick McGowan

Well put, man. An awesome way to put that. And I appreciate you being on the show today. It’s been so great to catch up. It’s crazy that we’ve already known each other for two years at this point, but it’s been beautiful to watch the progression you’ve gone through, even with this new gig, and I always enjoy our conversation, so thank you for being on with us today.

00:40:58:02 – 00:40:58:20

Cliff Washington

Same here.

00:40:59:08 – 00:41:01:24

Nick McGowan

Before we let you go, where can people connect with you.

00:41:03:00 – 00:41:33:09

Cliff Washington

So you can find me on on Instagram at No. Cliff three, which is k an 0cliff3 and then I’m on LinkedIn at Cliff Washington. You’ll find most of my activity on those platforms. Oh, and also, I’m sorry, I should. I should mention my podcast. Please check out my podcast, The Creator’s Life. You find me on Spotify, Apple and SoundCloud, SoundCloud, many great creative conversations with amazing people.

00:41:34:20 – 00:41:57:05

Nick McGowan

And we cannot forget that at all Cliff that was an that was a great episode when you had me on your show, it was actually my first podcast as a guest, so thank you for helping with that. And you are a great host. You ask, I think at times better questions that I did. So I appreciate that. So everybody go check out his podcast there.

00:41:57:12 – 00:42:01:14

Nick McGowan

The notes are going to be in here and all that. So thank you again, Cliff. It was a pleasure, ma’am.

00:42:02:13 – 00:42:12:02

Cliff Washington

Thank you. This was great.

00:42:12:02 – 00:42:35:04

Nick McGowan

Another great conversation on today’s episode of The Mindset and Self-mastery show. So what did you think about how Cliff answered the question of giving one piece of advice for people on their path towards self-mastery? I love the quote of There’s no way around the pain. You just have to walk through with such a simple yet beautiful way to put it.

00:42:35:17 – 00:42:54:09

Nick McGowan

And I know we try to get away from the pain, but really the way through it and to get through it is by going through it. So what did you think? I’d love to hear your thoughts on the topics we got into today, and especially that one. And if you enjoyed the episode, please jump over to iTunes and subscribe rate and leave a five star review.

00:42:54:09 – 00:43:15:09

Nick McGowan

It really, really helps us to be found. It helps others to be healed. And if you really enjoyed the show, please go ahead and share it with your friends, family, whoever you like, and check out the show notes for more info, contact info for Cliff and check out the other episodes of The Mindset and Self-mastery show on the Mindset and Self-mastery Showcase.

00:43:15:18 – 00:43:38:07

Nick McGowan

You can also go to our YouTube channel and check out some awesome clips. Just go to YouTube and type in the Mindset and Self-mastery show and you’ll see us. And thanks again, Cliff, for being real, for being honest and for being vulnerable. And thank you to you. Thank you for being with us. I’d also like to thank our sponsors for today, the Manly Club and the Powerhouse Men Brotherhood.

00:43:38:22 – 00:44:00:19

Nick McGowan

Do you consider yourself to be a powerhouse man? The criteria for becoming one is simple live with virtue and do great work. You see, a powerhouse man built his life. He doesn’t settle for it. He attacks mediocrity at the root. And that’s exactly what we do in the powerhouse men brotherhood. So visit the Manly Club dot com for more details.

00:44:01:06 – 00:44:07:01

Nick McGowan

And with that remember your mindset matters and so do you.