For this, the second installment of our two part leadership series, and the last episode of On The Line season four, Mark Smith from Mission Centered Solutions joins the podcast. Mark reviews the creation of the first Leadership (L) courses in wildland fire after the South Canyon Fire, his work with Honor the Fallen and their essay “The Big Lie” following the Yarnell Hill Fire, and his assessment of where leadership training is at in the fire services today and the challenges that lie ahead.

The Big Lie can be found at the following link: https://wildlandfireleadership.blogspot.com/2016/06/the-big-lie.html

For the first time ever, this episode of On The Line is also available as a vodcast. It can be found at YouTube at: https://youtu.be/Ky0UJH4VCmY?si=ORdBBq49jU9eZMjt

For the next two episodes (Leadership Alpha, Leadership Bravo) On The Line is focusing upon leadership in wildland fire. And for the first of those episodes, we are so fortunate to have Mike Degrosky kick off that conversation. Mike has spent more than forty years in the fire service, in roles as diverse as volunteer, hotshot, Ops Section Chief, FMO, Training Officer, and Chief Officer. His academic credentials are equally as impressive: bachelors degree in forestry and fire science, masters and doctoral degrees in Leadership Studies. He has consulted, primarily in the space of leadership development training, and he just recently retired as Chief of the Fire Protection Bureau at Montana DNRC. He continues to write the acclaimed "Thoughts on Leadership" column in Wildfire Magazine. 

In this, the fourth episode of season four, Dr. Phil Higuera from the University of Montana's Paleoecology and Fire Ecology Lab joins the podcast to discuss his and others' recent research efforts focusing upon declines in conifer resilience, the increasing loss of structures in western wildfires, and how climate change in general is affecting the fire landscape. 

https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.2208120120

https://academic.oup.com/pnasnexus/article/2/3/pgad005/7017542

https://theconversation.com/western-wildfires-destroyed-246-more-homes-and-buildings-over-the-past-decade-fire-scientists-explain-whats-changing-197384

As mentioned at the end of the podcast, UM graduate student Luke Santore is studying firefighter wellbeing. If interested in taking part in his research, please scan the QR code below for the firefighter wellbeing survey. Or go to, tinyurl.com/wlffwellbeing 

While females make up 10-12% of the wildland fire workforce, very little is known about them from a research perspective. Katie Christison, a Ph. D. student at the University of Montana, joins host Charlie Palmer to discuss her research focusing upon how female wildland firefighters (wlff) may be challenged to maintain thermoregulation and hydration balance due to hormonal fluctuations across the menstrual cycle. Katie also discusses some of the other gaps in our understanding of the female wlff experience, and upcoming research that might fill in these holes. 

As mentioned at the end of this podcast, UM graduate student Luke Santore is examining wlff wellbeing. To access Luke's survey, scan the QR code below, or go to tinyurl.com/wlffwellbeing

Critical Training (CT) represents a two week (80 hour) period of time at the beginning of the season for each crew. Much important work happens during these fourteen days, including key training, physical challenges, completion of the pack test, and the initial efforts at building crew cohesion. While it remains a vital piece of each crew's development, little is known about the CT process from a research standpoint. Researchers Dr. Chuck Dumke and soon to be Dr. Katie Christison from the University of Montana join host Charlie Palmer to discuss their multiple studies examining Critical Training, and the important results from these investigations. In the most recent study, nearly one in four subjects reached critical levels of Serum Creatine Kinase during CT. 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37258394/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37258395/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34184652/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33769401/

In this, the first episode of season four, a visit from the incomparable Dr. Brent Ruby. Brent has been studying wildland firefighters in the lab and the field at the University of Montana for the last two and a half decades, and he stops by the podcast studio to discuss with moderator Charlie Palmer his latest published work: a never before done comprehensive review focusing on firefighter physiology. Compiled with co-authors Robert Coker, Joe Sol, John Quindry, and Scott Montain, this journal article exams key performance areas such as nutrition, hydration, physical training, heat illness, altitude, smoke exposure, psychological stress, and sleep. The episode concludes with Dr. Ruby providing a sneak peek in to some of his upcoming research efforts. 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36994767/

While much is known about the science of wildland fire behavior, the same cannot necessarily be said about our understanding of the impacts that these blazes have upon those tasked with putting them out. Although that knowledge base is slowly building, much remains to be learned about the psychological and behavioral health of wildland firefighters (WLFF’s). Thanks to the recent research efforts of clinical psychology doctoral student Patty O’Brien (a former Lolo Hotshot, and now Dr. O’Brien), we now know a great deal more. Patty was able to survey over 2600 current or former wildland firefighters to learn more about their demographic, employment, and clinical characteristics, as well as their health behaviors. In this, the tenth and final podcast of On the Line season three, Patty and her doctoral advisor Dr. Duncan Campbell join host Charlie Palmer to discuss some of her groundbreaking findings, and to chart out a course for future steps.

The human brain is the most resilient organ in the body. Yet, even it is susceptible to harm, not only from outside physical sources, but from internal mechanisms as well. Due to the nature of the work they do, wildland firefighters can be exposed to traumatic events. These incidents may have an impact upon our mental and behavioral health. BLM Battalion Chief Asad Rahman from Carson City, Nevada (and previous guest for our Season 2, Episode 10 CISM podcast) and Dr. Deb Silveria, a psychologist from The Counseling Team International, join us “On the Line” to talk about post traumatic stress, and post traumatic growth.

Tune in for this special Season 3 bonus podcast when journalist Ali Pattillo joins the program to discuss her recent article regarding wildland firefighter mental health with host Charlie Palmer and cohost Brent Ruby.

https://www.inverse.com/mind-body/wildland-firefighters-are-burning-out

Ibuprofen, a member of the class of medications known as nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDS), is one of the most widely used over the counter medications in the world. It is quite effective for treating pain, reducing fever, and lessening inflammation in the body. However, overuse of ibuprofen can lead to gastrointestinal problems, and may place stress upon the kidneys, and these renal complications can be magnified by the work demands that firefighters face (high aerobic and anaerobic output, dehydration, and heat exposure). Dr. Rob Amrine, a sports medicine physician, and Dr. Eric Stone, a gastroenterologist, join the podcast to talk about ibuprofen, potential side effects from its use, dosing, and potential alternatives.