Optimizing Beyond

Bart Paden grew Midwestern Interactive from $0 to a $24M valuation in ten years. His secret? He put people before tasks and never built a power hierarchy.

Bart is the founder of Midwestern Interactive, author of Remaining Human, and now runs Archetype Original — a leadership coaching and consulting practice built on one conviction: your organization cannot be healthier than you are.

In this conversation, Bart traces his entrepreneurial journey from working out of a bedroom in Webb City, Missouri to leading a team of 104 people. Along the way, he founded Restore Joplin — a nonprofit that raised over $250,000 following the 2011 tornado and gave every dollar away.

What made the difference wasn't a perfect plan. It was curiosity. Bart taught himself the internet by downloading websites and dissecting their code before tutorials existed. That same "we'll figure it out" posture shaped how he hired, led, and now coaches others.

On hard conversations: Bart never blindsided people. He'd signal the conversation was coming, then lead with questions. More often than not, underperformance had nothing to do with work — a sick child, a struggling spouse — things you'd never know unless you asked.

On stewardship: leadership, for Bart, is not a position of power. It's standing shoulder to shoulder. His goal as a leader was always to work himself out of a job — elevate people until they could self-organize and run without him.

He's now building the Archetype Leadership Index (ALI), a diagnostic that tests for seven conditions of leadership: clarity, communication, consistency, trust, alignment, stability, and drift.

If you haven't read Remaining Human yet, I reviewed it in Episode 35. Grab a copy — Bart is giving our community $10 off with code JOSH10 at the link below.

In This Episode:

• Building confidence to execute before the plan is perfect
• Growing from $0 to $24M by investing in people
• Restore Joplin: raising $250K after the 2011 tornado and giving it all away
• Curiosity as a leadership superpower
• How to lead hard conversations without blindsiding people
• Leadership as stewardship — shoulder to shoulder, never above
• Working yourself out of a job by elevating people
• The Archetype Leadership Index: 7 conditions of leadership
• Faith, legacy, and building something worth leaving behind

Related Episodes:

Remaining Human: A Book Review (Ep 35)

Optimize Stewardship (Ep 23)

Take Responsibility (Ep 13)

Resources:

Remaining Human by Bart Paden — Use code JOSH10 for $10 off

*This description contains affiliate links. If you purchase through them, I may earn a small commission at no extra cost to you.

Here's the Episode 36 RSS metadata:

Episode Title: Optimize Your Food: Eat Better on Any Budget

Episode Notes:

Food is a habit you repeat multiple times every day — which means the quality of what you eat compounds across decades. Here's how to upgrade it without chaos or budget shock.

Josh and Ashley break down nearly 20 years of incremental food optimization — from surviving on processed food on a newlywed budget to building a system that's healthier, intentional, and still realistic. The through-line is their core principle: daily anything changes everything. Applied to food, that means one smart swap at a time, layered in over months and years, can completely change your long-term health trajectory.

Ashley walks through her full grocery planning system — why Walmart and Sam's pickup killed impulse buying, how she keeps a rolling cart to stay within budget, and why the produce-quality fear is mostly myth. Josh covers their ingredient audit approach: cutting enriched flour, seed oils, and artificial sweeteners, and why they tried — then abandoned — a plant-based year. They also dig into making organic work on a real budget, tracking cooking fats, what to do if neither partner likes to cook, and how one friend used Hello Fresh not for convenience but as a cooking school.

Key Takeaways:

• Grocery pickup and delivery removes impulse buying — the less healthy items require effort to find, which means you're less likely to grab them
• You can't go all-organic overnight; pick the one thing you eat most (protein, berries, dairy) and swap that first
• Measure the fat you cook with — most people are shocked how quickly tablespoons of oil and butter stack up
• Roles in the kitchen don't have to follow any default; cook what you enjoy and be honest about what creates resentment
• If you don't know how to cook, a meal kit service can teach you flavor profiles — then wean yourself off it once the skills are there

Resources:

Ep. 22 — Optimize Movement

Ep. 9 — Optimize Your Energy

Ep. 29 — Optimizing Sleep

AI is making us more efficient — and lonelier, less curious, and easier to manipulate. Here's what to do about it.

Remaining Human by Bart Paden isn't a tech-bashing book. It's a leadership and self-awareness book that happens to be about AI. In this episode, Josh breaks down Paden's most important arguments: why AI creates an illusion of efficiency while stripping away the context that actually drives good decisions, how AI echo chambers affirm your thinking instead of challenging it, and why the loneliness epidemic is accelerating as we outsource more of our human connection to machines.

The episode digs into what Paden calls the "context problem" — AI can generate a flawless performance review for Frank without knowing Frank just went through a divorce. It can tell you what to say, but not whether you should say it. Josh also explores how to use AI as a sparring partner rather than a yes-machine, and why curiosity is the skill that separates leaders who stay sharp from those who quietly atrophy.

Key Takeaways:

• AI optimizes for output, not context — and context is where leadership actually lives
• Echo chamber AI affirms your existing thinking; the fix is to actively prompt it to push back
• The loneliness epidemic and AI adoption aren't separate trends — they're feeding each other
• Curiosity over judgment: the best AI users treat it as a thinking tool, not an answer machine
• Staying human isn't about rejecting AI — it's about knowing what only you can bring to the table

Resources:

Remaining Human by Bart Paden — archetypeoriginal.com/remaining-human | Use code JOSH10 for $10 off

AI Driven Leader by Jeff Woods (referenced in this episode) — amazon.com

Ep. 27 — Rewriting Your Stories with Kevin Whisman (mentioned in this episode): youtu.be/zJ-cPUrBk9k

Ep. 33 — Optimizing with AI: youtu.be/kwH1kVLIAjM

This description contains affiliate links. If you purchase through them, I may earn a small commission at no extra cost to you.

Most people over-plan trips into anxiety or under-plan into chaos. Josh and Ashley Negron share what 17 years of travel — from a snowed-in Colorado cabin to Italy and Alaska — actually taught them.

Travel is one of the things people most want to do more of and feel least equipped to plan well. In this episode, Josh and Ashley break down how they've made travel a real, recurring priority: how they budget for it every month, how they navigate two completely different planning personalities, and the hard lessons from trips that went sideways.

The core insight is simple but easy to miss — identify the purpose of a trip before planning anything. A rest trip and an adventure trip require completely different approaches, and blurring that line is where most travel stress originates. They also get into why over-planning can turn an experience into an execution exercise, why buffer days produce some of the strongest memories, and how AI is changing the way they curate travel information without losing the novelty of discovery. Whether you've never taken a real vacation or just want to do it better, this episode is a practical, honest guide to making travel a habit worth building.

Key Takeaways:

• Identify the purpose of each trip first. Rest trips and adventure trips require different planning strategies — trying to do both without clarity leads to burnout for both people.
• A skeleton structure beats a rigid itinerary. Over-planning transfers all the stress onto one person, and a single missed train collapses the whole day when everything is locked in.
• Budget for travel like a recurring bill. Put money aside monthly, stack rewards miles, and leverage personal connections for accommodations — you don't need a big income to see the world.
• Buffer days aren't wasted days. Some of the most vivid travel memories happen when you're not trying to maximize every hour.
• Over-researching a destination can quietly kill the wonder of experiencing it. Use AI to pull a short, targeted list of what matters — then put the phone down.

Resources:

• Ep 10 — Intentional Marriage: https://youtu.be/jHPZUj_f_4c
• Ep 23 — Optimize Stewardship (money & budgeting): https://youtu.be/Xjb0eoMht7s
• Ep 26 — Marriage Q&A: https://youtu.be/Xnv5BDPWrvk
• Ep 30 — 17 Years, A Look Back: https://youtu.be/PeYGU6rf9s0
• Ep 33 — Optimizing with AI (travel planning with AI): https://youtu.be/kwH1kVLIAjM

Most people use AI like a smarter Google. Josh breaks down the mindset shift — and the 10 daily habits — that actually multiply what you can do.

Josh digs into the key principles from Geoff Woods' book AI Driven Leader and then gets personal — pulling from ChatGPT, Gemini, and Claude themselves to reveal the top 10 ways he actually uses AI every single day. From the reverse interview technique that transforms vague prompts into genuinely useful outputs, to using AI as a skeptical board member that challenges your blind spots, to leveraging it for health data analysis, travel planning, vibe coding, and high-stakes communication — this episode is a practical field guide, not a theory lecture.

The bigger takeaway is this: the people who will be hardest to replace aren't the ones avoiding AI — they're the ones who've learned to wield it as a multiplier. Josh breaks down why using AI daily, even for small things, builds the muscle faster than obsessing over the perfect prompt, and how to push through the frustrating "reality check" phase that causes most people to quit before it starts working.

Key Takeaways:

• The most powerful AI shift isn't the tool — it's the question. Moving from "how do I do this?" to "how can AI help me do this?" opens up an entirely different level of output.
• The reverse interview technique — give AI your context, then ask it to interview you one question at a time — is one of the most underused and most effective prompting strategies available.
• Use AI to challenge your blind spots, not just confirm your ideas. Prompting it to act as a skeptical board member, or even a specific thinker whose perspective you respect, surfaces assumptions you'd never catch on your own.
• Don't just use AI for tasks — ask whether each task can be systematized. The goal is turning a repeatable 5-minute job into a 30-minute setup that runs itself from then on.
• The AI adoption journey has three stages: light bulb, reality check, and building momentum. Most people quit at stage two. The only way out is through.

Resources:

• AI Driven Leader by Geoff Woods

*Note: if you purchase from a link, it may earn us a small commission at no cost to you.

Fear, perfectionism, and playing it too safe are the real reasons most side hustles never launch. Josh and Ashley Negron share what's actually holding you back — and how to fix it.

Most people aren't short on ideas — they're short on action. In this episode, Josh and Ashley Negron break down the three forces that kill most side hustles before they ever get off the ground: being overly conservative, fear of failure, and the perfectionist trap of endless preparation that never becomes execution. Drawing from their own experience launching a sports car rental business during COVID, scaling into real estate, and building multiple businesses over the years — including one they had to sell — they get real about what it actually takes to move from idea to action.

They also walk through the practical questions worth asking yourself before you start: What are you passionate about? What problem can you solve? Are you someone who needs a partner or works better alone? Whether you're testing a side hustle to eventually replace your W-2, looking to offset taxes, or just ready to find out what you're capable of building, this episode gives you a clear, honest framework to assess your options and finally take the shot.

Key Takeaways:

• The three enemies of every side hustle are being overly conservative, fear of failure, and perfectionism — and all three are rooted in the belief that you have to have everything figured out before you start.
• Failure is the curriculum, not the consequence. Every wrong turn, mispriced asset, or business you had to sell teaches you something no amount of planning could have.
• Know whether you're the bottleneck. If the business can't run without you in the room, you're working in the business, not on it — and your scale will always hit a ceiling.
• Your risk tolerance is personal and it should drive your strategy, not the loudest voice around you. There's a proven path whether you lean Dave Ramsey conservative or aggressive leverager — what matters is knowing which one you actually are.
• A great business partner isn't about splitting the work — it's about multiplying the outcome. The visionary/integrator dynamic can make one plus one worth far more than two.

Resources:

• Atomic Habits by James Clear
• Traction by Gino Wickman

The voice in your head is the most influential voice in your life — and for most of us, it's also the cruelest. Josh and longtime friend Gregg Hull break down exactly how to stop it.

Most people never stop to notice that their internal dialogue is actively building their identity — and tearing it down at the same time. In this episode, Josh sits down with longtime friend Gregg Hull to get into the mechanics of negative self-talk: where it starts, how it hardens into belief, and why even sincere compliments from the people who love you can't break through a wall of false identity.

Gregg opens up about decades of depression, self-loathing, and self-fulfilling patterns that played out in real relationships — and what finally shifted the trajectory. Josh and Gregg get practical, walking through the specific tools they've both used: gratitude lists targeted directly at yourself, writing negative beliefs in the affirmative, recruiting accountability partners to call out your verbal habits, and reaching out to trusted people to ask how they genuinely see you. Whether you've wrestled with negative self-talk for years or just notice it creeping in under pressure, this conversation gives you a clear, honest starting point.

Key Takeaways:

• Your self-talk is building your identity whether you're aware of it or not — and once a false belief is cemented, it actively blocks you from receiving love, connection, and accurate feedback from the people closest to you.
• The spoken word carries extra weight. Committing to stop saying negative things about yourself out loud — and enlisting people to hold you to it — is a practical first step that works its way backward into your internal dialogue over time.
• Gratitude isn't a feel-good exercise. Writing things you're genuinely thankful for, especially about yourself, interrupts the depressive thought loop and gives your identity something real to build on.
• You can't control your first thought, but you can control your second. Pause, ask "is this actually true?", and introduce a reframe before automatically buying into the narrative.
• Brain change is slow by design. Decades of reinforced negative thinking won't reverse in a week — patience and self-grace aren't optional, they're part of the work.

Resources:

• The Expectation Effect by David Robson

*Purchases via some links may provide a commission at no cost to you.

Most marriages don't fail dramatically — they drift. Josh and Ashley Negron share the real habits that kept them growing toward each other through 17 years of life, loss, and everything in between.

After 17 years together, Josh and Ashley Negron have a clear answer to why some marriages thrive while others quietly fall apart: intentionality. In this anniversary episode, they look back at the specific habits and shared experiences that built a foundation strong enough to weather job losses, a serious injury, grief, and the ordinary grind of daily life.

From car rides that became their go-to space for deep conversation and conflict resolution, to taking on physically challenging goals like Tough Mudder as a team, to slowly transforming their diet and gym routines side by side — the thread running through it all is the decision to actively swim upstream rather than let life carry them apart. Ashley and Josh also open up about navigating grief in two very different ways, the importance of knowing when to seek support outside the marriage, and what it looks like to genuinely serve one another even when life gets heavy. If your relationship has been running on autopilot, this episode is a practical and honest reminder that the investment is always worth it.

Key Takeaways:

• Car rides create a low-pressure space for deeper conversation and conflict resolution — a habit the Negrons have carried from their college years to today.
• Doing hard things together — fitness challenges, physically demanding travel, shared health goals — builds mutual trust and a shared identity that carries you through harder seasons.
• Relationship drift is the default. Only deliberate habits — shared bedtimes, gym routines, better food choices, and date nights — reverse the current.
• Grief looks different in every person. Rather than expecting your partner to process loss the same way, focus on honest communication and know when to seek outside support.
• Genuine service — consistently looking for ways to take care of each other — is the habit that makes a long marriage feel like a choice you'd make again.

Resources:

• Glenn Lundy — referenced for the distinction between spending vs. investing time and money in experiences

Stop trying to "catch up" on your weekend sleep debt; learn the science-backed, zero-cost habits that actually optimize your nightly rest.

The Value Summary: In this highly actionable episode, Josh Negron tackles the foundational pillar of human optimization: sleep. Moving beyond the generic "eight hours a night" advice, Josh unpacks insights from top sleep experts to dispel common myths surrounding sleep debt, caffeine timing, and nighttime wake-ups. Listeners will learn why sleep consistency—specifically your wake-up time—is actually more critical than sleep duration for regulating your circadian rhythm. The episode covers the hidden dangers of using alcohol or over-the-counter PM medications as sleep aids, explaining how they block the brain's ability to "wash out" proteins linked to Alzheimer's. From a bizarre (but effective) trick to stop middle-of-the-night bathroom trips to the "Nap-a-Latte" strategy for hacking adenosine, this episode provides a toolkit of low-hanging fruit to help you fall asleep faster and wake up sharper.

Key Takeaways:

• The "Catch-Up" Myth: Understand why binge-sleeping on weekends disrupts your circadian rhythm and why wake-up consistency is your most important metric.
• The 90-Minute Caffeine Rule: Learn why drinking coffee immediately upon waking is ineffective, and how delaying caffeine intake works with your natural cortisol spike.
• The Bladder Illusion: Discover a simple positional shift to eliminate artificial urges to use the restroom at 2 AM.
• The Danger of PM Meds & Alcohol: Find out how regular use of sedatives blocks Stage 4 sleep, preventing the brain from clearing harmful proteins.
• Supplement Smartly: Move away from multi-ingredient sleep bundles and explore targeted supplements like Magnesium Threonate and Apigenin, while leaving Melatonin for jet lag.

Resources:

• Dairy of a CEO Episode with Dr. Breus
• Dr. Michael Breus
• Andrew Huberman
• Chronotype Quiz
• Huberman Lab Sleep Supplements: Magnesium Threonate, L-Theanine, Apigenin
• Eight Sleep
• Whoop
• Optimizing Beyond

Keywords: how to fix sleep debt, 90 minute caffeine rule, waking up at 3am to pee, sleep consistency vs duration, alcohol and stage 4 sleep, nap-a-latte hack, magnesium threonate for sleep, sleep apnea hidden symptoms

*Some links may pay me a commission if you purchase through them.

Stop letting your fitness tracker dictate your mood. Learn to move from being controlled by data to using wearables as a strategic tool for growth.

The Value Summary: In this episode, Josh and Ashley Negron discuss the "house divided" of wearable technology, contrasting Josh’s 2,300-day Whoop streak with Ashley’s shift toward low-EMF devices like the Oura ring. They tackle the psychological trap of "orthosomnia"—the obsession with sleep metrics that paradoxically sabotages actual rest—and explore why many high achievers are ditching smartwatches to reduce digital anxiety. The conversation covers the "nocebo effect" of poor recovery scores and how the "closing the rings" gamification can lead to overtraining or compulsive behavior. By sharing how they use AI to translate lab results into natural health improvements, the hosts provide a practical framework for moving from a state of being "owned by data" to becoming a "data steward." Whether you’re a tech power user or a skeptic, this episode offers a balanced look at how to leverage health data for long-term optimization without losing your peace of mind.

Key Takeaways:

• The Connectedness Tax: Understand how constant wrist notifications can spike anxiety and why "analog" moments are essential for presence.
• Navigating Orthosomnia: Learn why obsessing over sleep scores often leads to worse sleep and how to shift focus to controllable metrics like "time in bed."
• EMF & Toxicity Awareness: Explore the reasons behind the shift to low-EMF wearables and the benefits of features like Oura's "airplane mode."
• Data as a Tool, Not an Idol: Identify the signs of being controlled by streaks and how to return to using data as a simple feedback loop for growth.
• AI-Integrated Health: Discover how to use tools like Whoop AI or ChatGPT to cross-reference lab metrics for natural lifestyle adjustments.

Resources:

• Whoop Performance Tracker
• Oura Ring
• Optimizing Beyond Website