Oral Argument

Oral Argument

By Joe Miller and Christian TurnerSociety & CultureEducationPhilosophy
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Oral Argument episodes

  • Episode 97: Facty

    When interpretations and rules depend on what’s true about the world (so, all the time), judges have to reach conclusions about those truths. But courts are not exactly like administrative agencies or legislatures, and they depend on adversarial parties to contest the truth. The Supreme Court, in particular, has come to rely on an elite bar to organize and present facts and studies. Having been through our usual vetting process of successfully appearing on the Colbert Report, Alli Larsen is ready for the big time and joins us to discuss how courts deal with the problem of factiness (which is the ivory tower version of truthiness). Alli’s appearance on the Colbert Report (01:02). The pronunciation of “amicus” (05:24). The main topic (10:36).

    This show’s links:

    • Alli Larsen’s faculty profile and writing
    • Alli on the Colbert Report discussing amicus briefs and factfinding
    • Before you write in, yes, the Dan Quayle story is false, but is that really the point?
    • Oral Argument 74: Minimum Curiosity (guest Amanda Frost)
    • Rowe v. Gibson
    • Alli Orr Lasen, The Amicus Machine
    • Alli Orr Larsen, The Trouble with Amicus Facts
    • Alli Orr Larsen, Factual Precedents
    • Amanda Frost, The Limits of Advocacy
    • Brianne Gorod, The Adversarial Myth: Appellate Court Extra-Record Factfinding
    • Glossip v. Gross (death penalty)
    • Brown v. Entertainment Merchants Association (violent video games)
    • About the Brandeis Brief
    • Gonzales v. Carhart
    • Reva Siegel, The Right’s Reasons: Constitutional Conflict and the Spread of Woman-Protective Antiabortion Argument
    • Gregory Klass and Kathryn Zeiler, Against Endowment Theory: Experimental Economics and Legal Scholarship
    • Joseph Kearney and Thomas Merrill, The Influence of Amicus Curiae Briefs on the Supreme Court
    • William Eskridge Jr., Politics Without Romance: Implications of Public Choice Theory for Statutory Interpretation
    • Special Guest: Alli Larsen.

      1 hr 6 min
    • Episode 96: Students as Means

      A show about, among other things, the morality of the law journal system. We start with Joe’s ailments and our scheduling issues. (You’re welcome; we know this is why people tune in.) Then a little about online review sessions, Slack, online classes, and video conferencing (2:32). Radiohead, Trump, and Ted Cruz (9:02). Next we open the mail and Twitter bags: Carl Malamud, the re-christened Indigo Book, and the possibility of a transcript of one of our episodes, all followed by Chris Walker’s posts on Prawfsblawg about student law journal podcasts (13:19). Next, listener Justin on laptops in classrooms and unconstitutional and re-constitutional statutes (17:38), Bunny on Oral ArgCon cosplay (25:27). And then this week’s main topic: The weird world of law review publishing and the moral aspects of our participation in it (28:23), including Joe’s description of the process, Christian’s calling Expresso “Espresso” (35:03), the transition to electronic submission and the rise of “expedites” (47:00). “Just tell me what your thesis is.” “Why don’t you tell me what it is?” and morality (52:54). Joe’s world (1:08:19). Christian’s world (1:13:53).

      This show’s links:

      • Joseph Miller, The Immorality of Requesting Expedited Review
      • Slack
      • Oral Argument 94: Bonus
      • Zoom
      • About Burn the Witch
      • Andrew Sullivan, Democracies End When They Are Too Democratic; Jedediah Purdy, What Trump’s Rise Means for Democracy
      • Richard Cytowic, Why Ted Cruz’s Facial Expression Make Me Uneasy
      • Carl Malamud on Twitter
      • Oral Argument 91: Baby Blue (guest Chris Sprigman)
      • The Indigo Book (also available as a PDF)
      • Chris Walker, Complete Junior Law Prawfs FAQs Series (and, particularly, What About Podcasts? and Rethinking Law Review Podcasts)
      • Nathan H. Saunders, Student-Edited Law Reviews: Reflections and Responses of an Inmate
      • Mark Twain, The War Prayer; a beautiful animated version
      • 1 hr 26 min
      • Episode 95: Own the Block

        Do you have a right to film the police? Should people film the police? A lot of attention has been given to the use by police officers of body cameras (and dash cameras), but what about citizens’ filming arrests on the street? With Jocelyn Simonson, we explore the ways that the use of cameras both facilitates and is expression.

        This show’s links:

        • Jocelyn Simonson’s facult profile and writing
        • Oral Argument 64: Protect and Serve (guest Seth Stoughton)
        • Jocelyn Simonson, Beyond Body Cameras: Defending a Robust Right to Record the Police
        • Timothy Williams, James Thomas, Samuel Jacoby, and Damien Cave, Police Body Cameras: What Do You See? (an interactive NY Times feature using videos created by Seth Stoughton); see also Jason Kottke’s link to this piece, which also features links to related ideas in film direction
        • The Chicago Police Accountability Task Force (with links to the report); see also Monica Davey and Mitch Smith, Chicago Police Dept. Plagued by Systemic Racism, Task Force Finds
        • ACLU of Illinois v. Alvarez (featuring a dissent by Judge Posner)
        • Floyd v. City of New York (the stop and frisk case); see also p.597 of the same case for the judge’s quotations of police, some used in Jocelyn’s paper, evincing a “contempt and hostility . . . toward the local population”)
        • This American Life 414: The Right to Remain Silent, Act Two (“For 17 months, New York police officer Adrian Schoolcraft recorded himself and his fellow officers on the job, including their supervisors ordering them to do all sorts of things that police aren't supposed to do.”)
        • Jocelyn Simonson, Copwatching
        • About the panopticon
        • Seth Stoughton, Law Enforcement’s ‘Warrior’ Problem (read online here if you don’t want the PDF)
        • About Stephen Colbert’s performance at the 2006 White House Correspondents’ Dinner (Here’s the video.)
        • City of Houston v. Hill (“Why don’t you pick on somebody your own size?”)
        • Fields v. City of Philadelphia (finding no First Amendment right to film police officers)
        • Samuel Warren and and Louis Brandeis, The Right to Privacy
        • Oral Argument 1: Send Joe to Prison (guest Sonja West)
        • Sonja West, First Amendment Neighbors
        • Sonja West, The Monster in the Courtroom
        • Special Guest: Jocelyn Simonson.

          1 hr 15 min
        • Episode 94: Bonus

          This is something different, a recording of a conversation we had for Christian’s Modern American Legal Theory class, which is being run online this semester. It’s a discussion of, among other things, the place of the public/private distinction in law and legal theory, critical legal studies, two-by-two boxes, and the vices and virtues of “universalization.” We had fun with it. So here’s a bonus episode.

          This show’s links:

          • Duncan Kennedy, The Stages of the Decline of the Public/Private Distinction
          • Christian Turner, Origins of the Public/Private Theory of Legal Systems
          • 50 min
          • Episode 93: Driveby

            We respond to accumulated listener feedback in one unedited take.

            This show’s links:

            • This space intentionally left blank. No links this week.
            • 1 hr 30 min
            • Episode 92: Deficit Peacock

              We’re joined by tax scholar Daniel Hemel to discuss a puzzling problem. Why don’t presidents use their regulatory powers to affect tax law like they do to affect the law in many other areas? But before that, we talk about Christian’s birthday disappointment (0:01:15) and law reviews and the Bluebook (0:06:47). Then we talk Joe’s Oral Argument cruise proposal and segue to today’s topic (0:21:32), a president’s power to tax (0:27:19), an example of “carried interest” (the tax issue that flared up in the 2012 presidential campaign) (0:37:12), Daniel’s game-theoretic model and discussion of hawks, peacocks, debt ceilings, and presidential hand-offs (1:04:36).

              This show’s links:

              • Daniel Hemel’s faculty profile and writing
              • Oral Argument 91: Baby Blue (guest Chris Sprigman)
              • Orin Kerr, A Theory of Law
              • Christopher Cotropia and James Gibson, The Upside of Intellectual Property's Downside
              • Daniel Hemel, The President’s Power to Tax (forthcoming so watch this space)
              • The Joint Committee on Taxation’s Bluebooks
              • U.S. Treasury’s Greenbooks
              • National Muffler Dealers Ass’n v. United States
              • Mayo Foundation for Medical Education and Research v. United States
              • 26 U.S.C. sec. 385
              • Gregg Polsky, Can Treasury Overrule the Supreme Court?
              • Victor Fleischer, Two and Twenty: Taxing Partnership Profits in Private Equity Funds
              • Matthew Yglesias, Jeb Bush Wants You to Think He’d Raise Taxes on Hedge Fund Managers. He’d Actually Cut Them. (see the second section, Carried interest, explained)
              • Victor Fleischer, Why Hedge Funds Don’t Worry About Carried Interest Tax Rules
              • David Lebedoff, Why Doesn’t Obama End the Hedge Fund Tax Break?
              • About the Pay-As-You-Go-Act of 2010
              • About hawk-dove games
              • About Margaret Chase Smith
              • Special Guest: Daniel Hemel.

                1 hr 24 min
              • Episode 91: Baby Blue

                In a world where a single power controlled the language of justice itself, one man (well, several people and a bunch of students, but anyway) rose up to … produce a free guide to the standardized practices of legal citation. Copyright scholar Chris Sprigman joins us to talk about two of his projects: Baby Blue, the open guide to legal citation, and the Restatement of Copyright. Our conversation: about Baby Blue (0:01:33), what in the Bluebook might be copyrightable (0:10:07), trademark and the two manuals’ names and colors (0:23:44), simplification of citation (0:39:43), and the Restatement of Copyright (0:56:52).

                This show’s links:

                • Chris Sprigman’s faculty profile, twitter, and writing
                • Baby Blue: web page and PDF
                • Oral Argument 88: The Blue Line
                • The Bluebook
                • Links to correspondence between lawyers for The Bluebook and others and the Baby Blue team
                • Zotero and Papers
                • The University of Chicago’s Citation Management for Law Students; Georgetown’s Bluebook Citation Resources and Detailed Feature Comparison
                • Cory Doctorow, Five Years of Being Intimidated by the Harvard Bluebook’s Copyright Policies; FGBR, The Bluebook: A Plot Summary
                • The Baby Blue public request for comments
                • Subject matter of copyright: In general (s.102(b))
                • Lotus v. Borland
                • The University of Chicago Law Review, The Maroonbook
                • McNeil Nutritionals v. Heartland Sweeteners (3d Cir. 2007) and later proceedings
                • American Law Institute, Restatement of Copyright
                • About secondary liability for copyright infringement
                • Cartoon Network v. CSC Holdings and Cablevision Systems (whether 1.2 seconds of buffering on a hard drive is a “fixation”)
                • Special Guest: Christopher Sprigman.

                  1 hr 15 min
                • Episode 90: We Are a Nation of Time-Shifters

                  Our main topic is fair use, the engine of so much cultural reuse and advancement. We’re joined by one of the doctrine’s most interesting scholars, Mike Madison. But the conversation spans: Joe’s telecomm cursing issues (0:00:36), FBiPhones and the Apple-FBI imbroglio (0:09:26), and fair use (0:28:27), including discussion of Mike’s Big Idea of social practices (0:53:03), reverse engineering, parody, video tapes, and much more.

                  This show’s links:

                  • Mike Madison’s website, writing, and blog
                  • FCC v. Pacifica Foundation
                  • FCC v. Fox (Fox II) (containing a link to Fox I)
                  • This American Life 267: Propriety (It’s all good, but the discussion of the legal issue in Fox is at about 19:15.)
                  • Amy Davidson, The Dangerous All Writs Act Precedent in the Apple Encryption Case
                  • John Gruber, The Next Step in iPhone Impregnability
                  • Oral Argument 80: We’ll Do It LIVE!
                  • Oral Argument 42: Shotgun Aphasia (guest Orin Kerr)
                  • Orin Kerr, An Equilibrium-Adjustment Theory of the Fourth Amendment
                  • Apple’s motion to vacate the order to assist the FBI
                  • Riley v. California (and see Orin Kerr’s post about the case shortly after it was decided
                  • About Fair Use Week
                  • Ty v. Publications Int’l (Judge Posner, giving an explanation of market substitution and fair use); see also Richard Posner, When Is Parody Fair Use?
                  • Suntrust Bank v. Houghton Mifflin Co.
                  • Key, lower-court cases deciding whether university course packets qualify for fair use protection: Basic Books Inc. v. Kinko’s Graphics Corp., Princeton Univ. v. Michigan Document Services, and, most recently, Cambridge University Press v. Patton
                  • David Fagundes, Market Harm, Market Help, and Fair Use
                  • Kickstarter page for Star Trek: Axanar, an independent Star Trek film (includes the twenty-minute video Prelude to Axanar)
                  • Ryan Reed, Crowdfunded 'Star Trek' Movie Facing Copyright Infringement Lawsuit; Eriq Gardner, 'Star Trek' Fans Want Paramount, CBS to Do Better Job Explaining Franchise to Court
                  • See also the unrelated and rather amazing Star Trek New Voyages, a nonprofit web series; and Paul Post, A ‘Star Trek’ Dream, Spread From Upstate New York
                  • A googol
                  • Statement of the Librarian of Congress Relating to Section 1201 Rulemaking; about anti-circumvention exemptions
                  • Electronic Frontier Foundation, Victory for Users: Librarian of Congress Renews and Expands Protections for Fair Uses
                  • Michael Madison, A Pattern-Oriented Approach to Fair Use
                  • Sony Corp. v. Universal City Studios
                  • Joel Hruska, How Sony’s Betamax Made YouTube and Twitch Possible
                  • Sega v. Accolade
                  • Frank Pasquale, Toward an Ecology of Intellectual Property: Lessons from Environmental Ecology for Valuing Copyright’s Commons
                  • Randy Picker, Closing the Xbox
                  • Sony Computer Entertainment v. Connectix Corp.
                  • MGM v. Grokster
                  • Jonathan Zittrain, The Generative Internet
                  • Horace Dediu, Seeing What’s Next (featuring a wonderful graph showing the adoption rates of various technologies, including the VCR); see also Derek Thompson, The 100-Year March of Technology in One Graph
                  • Eduardo Peñalver and Sonia Katyal, Property Outlaws: How Squatters, Pirates, and Protesters Improve the Law of Ownership (see also this article-length treatment)
                  • Eben Moglen, Freeing the Mind: Free Software and the Death of Proprietary Culture (“It is wrong to ask, ‘What is the incentive for people to create?’ It's an emergent property of connected human minds that they do create.”)
                  • Jennifer Rothman, The Questionable Use of Custom in Intellectual Property
                  • Michael Madison, Madisonian Fair Use
                  • Special Guest: Mike Madison.

                    1 hr 31 min
                  • Episode 89: Adequacy

                    This week we tackle the simple and uncontroversial topic of education funding with Josh Weishart. We plumb the depths of equity, equality, luck, adequacy, and sufficiency. Legislatures vs. courts, duties and immunities. Luckily Josh saves us from our usual inadequacy.

                    This show’s links:

                    • Josh Weishart’s faculty profile and writing
                    • Amy Piller, I’m a New York City school administrator. Here’s how segregation lives on.
                    • Joshua Weishart, Transcending Equality Versus Adequacy
                    • San Antonio Independent School District v. Rodriguez
                    • About John Rawls’ Difference Principle
                    • Elizabeth Anderson, What Is the Point of Equality?
                    • Debra Satz, Equality, Adequacy, and Educational Policy
                    • Gannon v. State; and a summary of school finance litigation in New Jersey
                    • Mark Kelman and Gillian Lester, Jumping the Queue
                    • Joshua Weishart, Reconstituting the Right to Education
                    • Christian Turner, Origins of the Public/Private Theory of Legal Systems
                    • About Hohfeld
                    • Scott Bauries, State Constitutions and Individual Rights: Conceptual Convergence in School Finance Litigation; Scott Bauries, Is There an Elephant in the Room?: Judicial Review of Educational Adequacy and the Separation of Powers in State Constitutions
                    • Special Guest: Joshua Weishart.

                      1 hr 16 min
                    • Episode 88: The Blue Line

                      We record live at the University of Georgia School of Law at the invitation of the Georgia Law Review. The main topic is law journals, but we also give an update on Christian’s crumbling infrastructure, talk about gravitational waves, and introduce a new and complete system of citation.

                      This show’s links:

                      • Baby Blue: web page and PDF
                      • The Bluebook
                      • David Post, The New (and Much Improved) ‘Bluebook’ Caught in the Copyright Cross-Hairs
                      • Links to correspondence between lawyers for The Bluebook and others and the Baby Blue team
                      • Oral Argument 73: Looking for the Splines
                      • B.P. Abbott et al. (LIGO Scientific Collaboration and Virgo Collaboration), Observation of Gravitational Waves from a Binary Black Hole Merger (and see the article and video at the Times: Dennis Overbye, Gravitational Waves Detected, Confirming Einstein’s Theory)
                      • David Foster Wallace, Tense Present (an earlier version of Authority and American Usage in Consider the Lobster and Other Essays)
                      • Robot or Not
                      • The Oyez podcast feed for 2015 Supreme Court oral argument and the collection of Oyez feeds in iTunes
                      • 1 hr 16 min

                      About Oral Argument

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                      A podcast about law, law school, legal theory, and other nerdy things that interest us.