It's the Season 2 finale and we have the one and only Carrie Goldberg as our guest! Carrie is the founding attorney of C.A. Goldberg, PLLC, a victims rights' firm in Brooklyn, where Norma is Director of Client Relations. Known for being the lawyer taking on big tech, Carrie created her firm to advocate for victims of tech-facilitated abuse and has been one of the leaders in changing laws and attitudes surrounding image-based sexual abuse. Norma and Carrie discuss meeting in 2015, when Carrie became Norma's lawyer, what was going on in Carrie's life at the time, only about a year into starting her firm. Carrie describes the growth of the firm and the moment she realized she needed to hire a team, work/life balance, insights on dating, and her experiences working with Holocaust survivors in her 20s. She and Norma talk about financial justice and stigma around survivors demanding and accepting money – which is what the legal system is for (distribute the wealth!). Carrie gets into some of her biggest Section 230/tech accountability lawsuits, including suing Grindr (listen to S1E10 with Matthew Herrick) and Amazon for selling suicide kits to kids, and attacking major issues from all angles: protest through litigation, advocating for legislation, agitating media for public awareness, and creating a cultural shift. Finally, Carrie answers a few listener questions about doing her work as a survivor herself, the future around image-based sexual abuse, and more.

Follow Carrie Goldberg & C.A. Goldberg, PLLC:

Instagram @cagoldberglaw

Twitter @cagoldberglaw

C.A. Goldberg, PLLC Website:

https://www.cagoldberglaw.com/

Buy Carrie's book, Nobody's Victim (and check out Norma's Bookshop.org affiliate link for more recs from the pod!):

https://bookshop.org/lists/oral-arguments-podcast-books-mentioned

Follow Norma Buster:

Instagram @normabuster_

Twitter @normabuster

OnlyFans https://onlyfans.com/normabuster

Follow Oral Arguments:

Instagram @oralargumentspodcast

Twitter @Oral_Arguments

More on the Adult Survivors Act in NY - DEADLINE NOV 23, 2023:

https://www.survivorslaw.com/

This week's guest, Kaytlin Bailey, is a sex worker rights advocate, comedian, writer, and founder of Old Pros and Host of The Oldest Profession Podcast. She tells us about her start getting into sex work as a form of rebellion, how her sex work evolved as she pursued her comedy career, and the undeniable freedom that comes with "embracing that archetypal whore." Norma and Kaytlin discuss how censorship of sex-positive content is actually counterintuitive to preventing sexual abuse, as well as the nuances of "free speech" and what that means, and for whom. Kaytlin explains how she got into advocacy for sex workers rights after the passage of SESTA/FOSTA in 2018, and why destigmatization is such an important step for decriminalization – and how she attacks that through educating listeners to her podcast about sex workers' stories in history. She gets into Old Pros, her nonprofit with a mission of cultural change and creating persuasive content, hosting compelling events, and changing people's minds, and Whore's Eye View, her one-woman "edutational" show (which she's getting ready to tour!). Kaytlin gets into her upbringing and living with both progressive activism and benevolent sexism and coming out to family as a sex worker. Then, she tells us about what we can learn from the Comstock Laws and how reproductive rights are related to sex workers rights – and ultimately, bodily autonomy and freedom of expression for all of us. Finally, Norma and Kaytlin get into the conflation of sex work and exploitation or trafficking, the current state of the decriminalization movement in the US, and why "End the Demand"/Nordic/"partial decriminalization" model actually creates a power imbalance that hurts sex workers and trafficking victims.

Follow Kaytlin Bailey, Old Pros:

Instagram @kaytlinbailey, @oldprosonline

Twitter @KaytlinBailey, @oldprosonline

https://oldprosonline.org/

UPCOMING EVENTS:

Buy tickets (in person or virtual) for Securing Sexuality Conference, watch Norma's talk on 10/20 at 1 pm "Sex-Positive Victims Rights: Ethical Considerations for Practitioners and Tech"

https://www.securingsexuality.com/register-now.html#/

Buy tickets for Another Body screening at IFC Center in NYC, 10/21/23 at 7:05 pm - post-screening Q&A with Norma Buster, Adam Eli, and directors Sophie Compton & Reuben Hamlyn:

https://tickets.ifccenter.com/websales/pages/ticketsearchcriteria.aspx?evtinfo=405515~8722a542-64c1-4c0b-af02-c3e8a239d769&_ga=2.150474742.152236870.1696462706-1267295534.1695929460

anotherbodyfilm.com/

Buy tickets for past guest Jacq Frances' movie premiere, Tuesdays with Brian Tues 10/24

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/tuesdays-with-brian-premiere-tickets-719003939137

Follow Norma Buster:

Instagram @normabuster_

Twitter @normabuster

OnlyFans https://onlyfans.com/normabuster

Follow Oral Arguments:

Instagram @oralargumentspodcast

Twitter @Oral_Arguments

C.A. Goldberg, PLLC Website:

https://www.cagoldberglaw.com/

More on the Adult Survivors Act in NY:

https://www.survivorslaw.com/

Books mentioned:

The Man Who Hated Women: Sex, Censorship, and Civil Liberties in the Gilded Age, Amy Sohn

https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-man-who-hated-women-sex-censorship-and-civil-liberties-in-the-gilded-age-amy-sohn/15042621?ean=9781250174833

Unbroken Chains: The Hidden Role of Human Trafficking in the American Economy, Melissa Ditmore

https://bookshop.org/p/books/unbroken-chains-the-hidden-role-of-human-trafficking-in-the-american-economy-melissa-ditmore/18738003?ean=9780807006771

This week we have directors of Another Body, a documentary following a college student's investigation after discovering deepfake content of herself online – and we get an inside look into the making of it. First, in the intro, Norma talks about the news that CA has passed Tyler's Law (AB1109), which punishes online retailers for selling sodium nitrite to minors. She also talks about C.A. Goldberg's new blog post on the legal rights of sex workers. Then, we get to our guests, Sophie Compton and Reuben Hamlyn. Sophie and Reuben tell us about their paths to making a documentary about deepfakes, and how they used AI in Another Body to anonymize the subject, "Taylor," – and how Taylor found it to be a form of reclamation. They discuss their research speaking with victims of image-based sexual abuse (IBSA) and what they learned about common impacts on survivors (especially internalized shame), and why these discussions need to be inclusive of all survivors of IBSA. Sophie and Reuben explain their process to ethically find a survivor to work with and get real about some of their challenges and best practices throughout (keyword: transparency). Norma, Sophie, and Reuben discuss the idea of a "perfect victim," the unique effects of speaking out about IBSA on survivors who are public figures, and the positive impact that video diaries had on Taylor in her healing journey. Sophie and Reuben discuss their research pouring through 4chan forums and how their documentary and research turned into a movement, My Image My Choice. Finally, they discuss what's next: advocating for the criminalization of deepfakes, shutting down sites dedicated to deepfakes, upcoming screenings of Another Body, a virtual summit in November, and more from My Image My Choice.

Info on Another Body:

Instagram @anotherbody.film

anotherbodyfilm.com/

Buy tickets for Another Body screening at IFC Center in NYC, 10/21/23 at 7:05 pm - post-screening Q&A with Norma Buster, Adam Eli, and directors Sophie Compton & Reuben Hamlyn:

https://tickets.ifccenter.com/websales/pages/ticketsearchcriteria.aspx?evtinfo=405515~8722a542-64c1-4c0b-af02-c3e8a239d769&_ga=2.150474742.152236870.1696462706-1267295534.1695929460

https://linktr.ee/anotherbody.film

My Image My Choice:

Instagram @myimagemychoice

https://myimagemychoice.org/

Follow Sophie Compton and Reuben Hamlyn:

Instagram @sophietaracompton @urghreub

Follow Norma Buster:

Instagram @normabuster_

Twitter @normabuster

OnlyFans https://onlyfans.com/normabuster

Follow Oral Arguments:

Instagram @oralargumentspodcast

Twitter @Oral_Arguments

C.A. Goldberg, PLLC Website:

https://www.cagoldberglaw.com/

More on the Adult Survivors Act in NY:

https://www.survivorslaw.com/

Articles Mentioned:

https://www.cagoldberglaw.com/legal-rights-of-sex-workers/

Tyler's Law: https://legiscan.com/CA/text/AB1109/2023#:~:text=On%20or%20after%20July%201,years%20of%20age%20or%20older.

This week we have on Mx. Sizzle (they/them), sex and kink educator and professor of sexual health decision-making and intro to health disparities, with tons of fascinating knowledge to share. First, in the intro, Norma talks about NY's "deepfake" law that was just signed by Governor Hochul. Then, we get to our guest. Mx. Sizzle talks about their start in purity culture and how they dove into sex education as a teen. They get into their period of domming for 8 years, and Norma and Mx. Sizzle discuss stigma around BDSM and how controlled power dynamics can be healing for survivors. They get into the term "hypersexuality," when sex work can be empowering, and sexual health disparities. Mx. Sizzle tells us about RACKs (Risk Aware Consensual Kink) and the idea of safer sex practices, and lessons that can be applied from kink to "vanilla" sex. They talk about how to set boundaries, sub space, consensual nonconsent (AKA "rape fantasies"), consent accidents vs. violations and how they relate to restorative justice, sex toys, and why Mx. Sizzle opts out of gender completely.

Follow Mx. Sizzle:

Instagram @mx.sizzle_

www.mxsizzle.com/

https://linktr.ee/mx.sizzle

Le Wand - use code MxSizzle for 22% off:

www.lewandmassager.com/

Follow Norma Buster:

Instagram @normabuster_

Twitter @normabuster

OnlyFans https://onlyfans.com/normabuster

Follow Oral Arguments:

Instagram @oralargumentspodcast

Twitter @Oral_Arguments

Buy tickets for Another Body screening at IFC Center in NYC, 10/21/23 at 7:05 pm - post-screening Q&A with Norma Buster, Adam Eli, and directors Sophie Compton & Reuben Hamlyn:

https://tickets.ifccenter.com/websales/pages/ticketsearchcriteria.aspx?evtinfo=405515~8722a542-64c1-4c0b-af02-c3e8a239d769&_ga=2.150474742.152236870.1696462706-1267295534.1695929460

For other screenings & info about Another Body:

https://anotherbodyfilm.com/

C.A. Goldberg, PLLC Website:

https://www.cagoldberglaw.com/

More on the Adult Survivors Act in NY:

https://www.survivorslaw.com/

Articles Mentioned:

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/in-house-counsel/n-y-outlaws-unlawful-publication-of-deepfake-revenge-porn

https://www.cagoldberglaw.com/ai-update-fbi-deepfake-warning-and-new-ny-law/

Rachele Royale is a powerhouse – she's a musician and podcaster who's not afraid to call sh*t how it is. Before their conversation, Norma discusses Hispanic Heritage Month in the intro, Cuba and freedom of expression, and recent news of rising rates of femicide in Cuba in the intro. She also shares politician and survivor Katie Hill's recent piece about Susanna Gibson, political candidate who recently publicly became a victim of image-based sexual abuse. Then, we get to this week's guest. This episode is recorded in 2 parts – in part 1, a clip from Rachele's podcast Haus of Royale, Rachele tells us about the exploitation she was subjected to as a young rising musician, and the community she found at the strip club. (Check out Haus of Royale for the full Part 1 of their conversation!) Then, in part 2, Rachele delves deeper into some of the aspects at play that made her more vulnerable – from her home life, to predatory older men who'd enter her path. Rachele gets real about the positives and negatives from her time stripping, and talks about how it healed her relationship with dance, an art she grew up with. She talks about the need for more women to become vocal engineers, ageism within the entertainment industry, and why podcasting and speaking out as a survivor have been healing.

Follow Rachele Royale:

Instagram @racheleroyalemusic, @thehausofroyale

Listen to/watch her podcast, Haus of Royale:

https://www.youtube.com/@RacheleRoyaleMusic/videos

Check out her music:

https://linktr.ee/RacheleRoyale

Follow Norma Buster:

Instagram @normabuster_

Twitter @normabuster

OnlyFans https://onlyfans.com/normabuster

Follow Oral Arguments:

Instagram @oralargumentspodcast

Twitter @Oral_Arguments

C.A. Goldberg, PLLC Website:

https://www.cagoldberglaw.com/

More on the Adult Survivors Act in NY:

https://www.survivorslaw.com/

Articles/Resources Mentioned:

Locatora Radio: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/locatora-radio-a-radiophonic-novela/id1290486596

"'They are killing us': Murders of women in Cuba are growing at an alarming rate," Carla Colomé Santiago

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/cuba/article278567939.html

"Women's bodies should not be a matter of public interest," Katie Hill

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/09/21/susanna-gibson-women-bodies-katie-hill/

This week's guest is Dr. Spring Cooper, professor of sexual health and yoga teacher. Before that, in the intro, Norma covers articles about "Zoom culture" and our perception of self, and a recent arrest of clients of sex workers in NYC – as well as the current state of the prosecution of prostitution in NYC (articles linked below). Then, the interview: Spring tells us about why she started studying human sexuality, and her research on sexual agency and the first ever measure that she created for it. She gets into some of her findings from her research on adolescent sexual agency, and in particular what she learned about LGBTQ youths' relationships to agency. Norma and Spring discuss young people's relationship to porn and how it's changed, their own experiences learning about and exploring nonmonogamy, and healing through activism. Spring tells us about her own experience surviving image-based sexual abuse (IBSA), and her lawsuit against her ex – the first under NYC's IBSA law. Finally, she talks about how she got into teaching yoga and how the practice changed her life.

Follow Dr. Spring Cooper:

Instagram @drspringc, @thesexwrap

Listen to her podcast, The Sex Wrap: https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id1186166231?ign-itscg=30200&ign-itsct=lt_p

https://linktr.ee/drspringc

Follow Norma Buster:

Instagram @normabuster_

Twitter @normabuster

OnlyFans https://onlyfans.com/normabuster

Follow Oral Arguments:

Instagram @oralargumentspodcast

Twitter @Oral_Arguments

C.A. Goldberg, PLLC Website:

https://www.cagoldberglaw.com/

More on the Adult Survivors Act in NY:

https://www.survivorslaw.com/

Articles/Books Mentioned:

"We were never supposed to see our faces this much" https://www.dazeddigital.com/beauty/article/60860/1/we-were-never-supposed-to-see-our-faces-this-much-social-media-zoom

"NYPD: 17 men arrested, charged for trying to purchase sex"

https://bronx.news12.com/nypd-17-men-arrested-charged-for-trying-to-purchase-sex

"Despite Reforms, Sex Workers in New York Still Live in Fear of Arrest"

https://documentedny.com/2023/03/20/sex-workers-decriminalization-nyc-massage-parlors-reform/

This week's guest is intimacy coordinator and director Amy Northup. First, in the intro, Norma talks a little about the current state of AI in Hollywood and proposed legislation (article linked below). Then, Amy explains what she does and what a day in her life might look like, and dispels the myth that intimacy coordinators "sanitize" sex scenes (they actually make them sexier). She shares both hilarious and illuminating stories from sets, where actors realized they hadn't been asked about their own boundaries before then, or times when an actor was empowered to change their mind. Norma and Amy get into the self-betrayal of violating our own consent as survivors, and their approaches to working with people who might be experiencing a trauma reaction. Amy tells about the challenges and progress in getting more intimacy coordinators on film and TV sets, and the current strikes in Hollywood and how AI plays a role. Then, she tells about her work in nightlife and how it prepared her for her career now, and the work she does with OutSmartNYC in nightlife sexual violence prevention. Amy and Norma discuss the New York Adult Survivors Act and the barriers to reporting within nightlife, and calculated risk and putting up with a certain level of BS.

Follow Amy Northup

Instagram @supnorthup

http://www.amynorthup.com/

Follow Norma Buster:

Instagram @normabuster_

Twitter @normabuster

OnlyFans https://onlyfans.com/normabuster

Follow Oral Arguments:

Instagram @oralargumentspodcast

Twitter @Oral_Arguments

C.A. Goldberg, PLLC Website:

https://www.cagoldberglaw.com/

More on the Adult Survivors Act in NY:

https://www.survivorslaw.com/

Articles/Books Mentioned:

"California lawmakers want to protect actors from being replaced by artificial intelligence" https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2023-09-13/california-bill-entertainment-workers-ai-digital-replicas

Book: How Sex Changed the Internet, and the Internet Changed Sex, Samantha Cole

https://bookshop.org/p/books/how-sex-changed-the-internet-and-the-internet-changed-sex-an-unexpected-history-samantha-cole/17897761?ean=9781523513840&ref=&source=IndieBound&title=How+Sex+Changed+the+Internet+and+the+Internet+Changed+Sex%3A+An+Unexpected+History

Cleopatra Tatabele is truly a beacon of wisdom. They're a Two-Spirit Black and Taino educator, content creator, and make-up artist. Norma and Cleopatra talk a little about nonmonogamy before Cleopatra breaks down what it means to her to be Two-Spirit. They discuss Latino culture and unpacking indigeneity, race and colorism within the self and others. (Spoiler: Latino is not a race.) Then, Norma and Cleopatra get into the pervasiveness of victim-blaming, and Cleopatra explains "spiritual victim blaming" within non-religious spiritual spaces and what we can learn about healing and prevention from indigenous practices. They dive into the widespread effects of colonization, appreciation vs appropriation, kink & healing, and more. This is an episode that covers a LOT of ground but is full of stories and laughs.

Follow Cleopatra Tatabele

Instagram @Afrobrujx

https://www.cleopatratatabele.com/

Follow Norma Buster:

Instagram @normabuster_

Twitter @normabuster

OnlyFans https://onlyfans.com/normabuster

https://www.normabuster.com/

https://linktr.ee/normabuster

Follow Oral Arguments:

Instagram @oralargumentspodcast

Twitter @Oral_Arguments

C.A. Goldberg, PLLC Website:

https://www.cagoldberglaw.com/

This week's guest, Silvia Semezin, is an Italian researcher, activist, and writer living in Spain – yes, she's incredibly smart. First, in the intro, Norma discusses Wired article "Sex Workers Took Refuge In Crypto. Now It's Failing Them" and financial discrimination, and then shares some of her personal journey with PTSD and antidepressants and where she's at now. Then, we get to the interview. Silvia breaks down what digital sociology is and how she tries to keep up with the ever-changing tech landscape. Then she tells about her personal experience with image-based sexual abuse (IBSA) and writing, advocating, and passing a law criminalizing the nonconsensual distribution of intimate images – the first law in Italy with consent at its center. She explains how her own experience influenced her research and writing, including her own book co-written with Lucia Bainotti, Donne tutte puttane, which translates to "Women are Whores" (she explains the meaning in the episode) about IBSA. She tells us about infiltrating Telegram groups, finding hundreds of thousands of men sharing intimate images of women without their consent, and the media scandal that broke out when the research was published. Finally, she gets into her research on blockchain and her findings and concerns surrounding discrimination and inequalities in web3.

Follow Silvia Semenzin

Instagram @SilviaSemenzin_

https://www.silviasemenzin.it/

Her research – "The Use of Telegram for Non-Consensual Dissemination of Intimate Images: Gendered Affordances and the Construction of Masculinities":

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2056305120984453?fbclid=IwAR2dXakxqnNpHl0teIP1kv-aqgOlKA20KX-mqKCHf8BAApiBds8vDJ-nu-c

Silvia's other publications:

https://www.silviasemenzin.it/publications

Follow Norma Buster:

Instagram @normabuster_

Twitter @normabuster

OnlyFans https://onlyfans.com/normabuster

https://www.normabuster.com/

https://linktr.ee/normabuster

Follow Oral Arguments:

Instagram @oralargumentspodcast

Twitter @Oral_Arguments

C.A. Goldberg, PLLC Website:

https://www.cagoldberglaw.com/

Article Mentioned:

https://www.wired.com/story/sex-workers-crypto-failing-them/

Jacqueline Frances, FKA as Jacq the Stripper, is a legend – she's a visionary, creative, a philosopher; an artist, comic, and former stripper (and she worked with JLO consulting on the movie Hustlers). She gets into her decade of being a gay stripper across the world and finding healing through sex work, unlearning whorephobia and the whorearchy in public and learning from the sex work activism scene, and her experiences surrounding strip club culture and safety across the world. Norma and Jacq get into Norma's consideration into starting an OnlyFans (yes, this interview was recorded before she pulled the trigger) and Jacq offers Norma some sage advice we all could use – considering OF or not. Jacq talks about the unique challenges undocumented sex workers face (and why legalization of sex work is NOT the way – full decrim only), capitalism, and how she's channeling her slut energy nowadays through her art (and her series "Hedonistic Jocks"), filmmaking, and comedy. Norma and Jacq get into being shamed for liking attention (as Jacq says – cleavage is a gift!), destigmatizing divorce, and Jacq's experience and influence consulting on the movie Hustlers.

Follow Jacqueline Frances

Instagram @JacqTheStripper

Patreon (watch her special The Live and Divorce of Jacq the Stripper) https://www.patreon.com/artcampproductions

Buy her art https://jacqthestripper.squarespace.com/shop

Follow Norma Buster:

Instagram @normabuster_

Twitter @normabuster

OnlyFans https://onlyfans.com/normabuster

https://www.normabuster.com/

https://linktr.ee/normabuster

Follow Oral Arguments:

Instagram @oralargumentspodcast

Twitter @Oral_Arguments

C.A. Goldberg, PLLC Website:

https://www.cagoldberglaw.com/

Articles Mentioned:

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/08/how-dating-apps-became-a-paradise-for-predators/

https://prismreports.org/2023/08/22/new-york-justice-incarcerated-survivors/

More on the Adult Survivors Act: https://www.survivorslaw.com/