What do you do if you inherit a cedar waxwing named Bandit? Even more, he can’t fly—something’s wrong with his wing. You know nothing about birds, but suddenly you’re responsible for this fragile life. You can’t just Google “cedar waxwing care” and call it good. You have to live life on the terms of this yet-to-be-known creature, watching his face, learning that he’s only happy when he can see yours, discovering that you’ve become his flock.

This is the story Dr. Esther Lightcap Meek shared to illustrate her life’s work: real knowing isn’t about collecting information—it’s about entering relationship.

Dr. Meek is a philosopher who has spent her career asking one of the best questions: How do you know what you know? She’s Professor of Philosophy Emeritus at Geneva College and author of influential books including A Little Manual for Knowing and Doorway to Artistry.

In our conversation, we explore how the modernist approach to knowledge—treating it as information to be collected—is actually killing our capacity to truly know anything. Esther argues for what she calls “covenant epistemology,” where we pledge ourselves to the yet-to-be-known and discover that reality itself is welcoming us first. When we realize that we love in order to know, everything changes about how we approach learning, creativity, and even our relationship with God.

If you’ve ever felt disconnected from wonder, struggled with the limits of purely rational approaches to faith, or sensed that there’s something more to knowing than accumulating facts, this conversation offers a different way forward. It’s an opportunity to discover what Esther calls the “loving to know mindset”—and to realize that you’ve been doing it all your life.

Imagine: You’re watching the news. A young woman in a courtroom, tears streaming down her face, publicly repents for breaking the law. True tears. Real remorse. A genuine desire to learn and grow from her mistakes. Your heart is moved by this rare public display of humility.

Then you check social media.

Maybe you shouldn’t have.

Instead of collective appreciation, you find a digital feeding frenzy—everyone trashing this woman, using her vulnerability as an opportunity to shame her. And it hits you:

This is why nobody wants to be humble anymore.

This is the story A.J. Swoboda shared with me to open our conversation. A.J. is a theologian, pastor, and author of the brilliant new book A Teachable Spirit (you should definitely read it—I loved it).

A.J. brings wisdom to our cultural moment where humility has become a liability. In our conversation, we explore how to cultivate teachability when vulnerability gets weaponized, why learning from people we disagree with feels so threatening, and why the early Christians were so radical precisely because they were learners.

One of my favourite new insights: A.J. unpacks how “humble” comes from the Latin humus, meaning dirt … “Humans are dirtbags that just breathe in the breath of God. That's all we are.” There’s something humourous and liberating about remembering what we actually are.

A.J. makes a compelling case that humility is actually strength, and that we practice teachability before we feel it—just like generosity or love. If you’re tired of a cultural moment where admitting ignorance feels dangerous and changing your mind feels like betrayal, this conversation offers a different way forward. It’s an invitation into what A.J. calls “the quiet strength of humility.”

You can learn more about A.J. at his website. I also highly recommend subscribing to his Substack, The Low-Level Theologian, and checking out Slow Theology, the podcast he cohosts with Nijay Gupta.

What if emotions weren’t problems to be solved, but experiences to be lived? What if our kitchens and living rooms could be places where grief and joy move through us naturally, without needing to hide away?

We had fun sitting down with our friend Dr. Hillary McBride, a therapist who understands that our relationship with emotions shapes how we move through the world. When Hillary lost two cousins within weeks of each other, she found herself navigating grief in ordinary moments—while making dinner, driving her daughter to school, taking evening baths. Instead of hiding these feelings, she chose to model to her daughter how to be present with them.

Our conversation explores how emotions live in our bodies, why imagination matters for healing, and what it means to feel together rather than alone. “We don’t do feelings alone in our family,” Hillary shares, offering a powerful alternative to the isolation many of us learned around difficult emotions.

From practical insights about moving through grief to fascinating discussions about neuroscience and embodiment, Hillary brings both expertise and genuine humanity to these vital questions. You’ll appreciate her thoughtful approach to living more fully with all our emotions, even—and especially—in the most ordinary moments of our days.

Opening and Closing Song: Water, Blitz//Berlin

Story Song: Genoa, Blitz//Berlin

What if you could meet a poet, nay perhaps a prophet, communes with the divine, and loves the beyond so, they cannot miss the ordinary?

Having tasted manna, they knows holiness in crusts and crumbs, prophecy in coffee grounds.

Like Blake, they see the universe in a grain of sand, infinity in an hour, heaven contained within the petals?

Then meet Joshua Luke Smith.

Joshua is a poet for the people—a musician, author, and purveyor of the ordinary. He is a man of daring honesty, inspiration, and hope.

I came across his book Something You Once Knew: Waking Up to the Extraordinary in Your Ordinary Life a few years ago—and you should definitely read it. For me, the timing was ordained. I had been sitting like an hen on ideas for a book about joy—eyes transfixed on a beautiful still pond. Then Joshua came along and nudged me into the water. After reading his book, I realized it was time to start writing—to get wet, flap about and make some ripples, let the eggs hatch—and, as a result, I wrote Longing for Joy. Once again, thanks, Joshua!

You can imagine my delight when I got to chat with Joshua. It was the kind of joy that spills over. I saw the rest of my day with renewed sight. We talk about hope, how the ordinary stuff of life is actually the main event, and how all of life is one big creative act (even if you don’t think you're an artist). I know you’ll enjoy it.

I want to encourage you to listen to Joshua’s new album Liberated, check out his podcast This Is The Main Event, and even consider joining The Write Club. You won’t regret it. Even better, you’ll have an unshakable sense that being alive is a very good thing indeed.

Opening and Closing Song: Water, Blitz//Berlin

Story Song: Trackless Sea (Instrumental), Kings Kaleidoscope

Featured Song: Joy, Joshua Luke Smith

In the latest episode of Ordinary Matters, I sat down with the pastor and author, Ken Shigematsu. His opening story begins in a small church in Tokyo where, as a young Sony Corporation employee, he was asked to preach his first sermon. When his grandmother—who remembered him as a child always asking how to get rich—made the hour-long journey to hear him, something embarrassing and remarkable happened. You’ll have to listen to find out!

This story sets the stage for our conversation about Ken’s new book, Now I Become Myself: How Deep Grace Heals Our Shame and Restores Our True Self. Ken opens up about how even now, after years of pastoral ministry, he still has dreams of standing before a congregation with nothing to say, watching as people slowly file out of the room. It’s a picture of what many of us carry: that persistent feeling of not being enough.

What I love about Ken’s approach is how he weaves together spiritual practices with modern neuroscience. He shares a beautifully simple daily practice that has transformed his own life:

Sitting quietly after his morning swim, receiving God’s affirmation of love just as Jesus did at his baptism. “Ken, you are my beloved son. In you I delight.”

It’s not just positive thinking—it’s a practice that literally reshapes our neural pathways over time.

In our conversation, we also explore the relationship between grace, shame, and joy. Ken points to research from Stanford showing how exposure to natural beauty can actually quiet the brain regions associated with anxiety and self-criticism. “When you expose yourself to beauty,” he explains, “whether it’s in nature or through gorgeous music or through a piece of beautiful art ... you literally leave less room in your brain for shame to be at work.”

At the end of the conversation, Ken even lead us in a contemplative prayer based on Ephesians 3—inviting us into that spacious place of being “rooted and established in love.” It was a fitting end to a conversation that reminds us that transformation doesn’t come through willpower alone, but through the space for grace to do its deeper work.

I hope you enjoy this conversation!

P.S. Longing for Joy is a finalist for the InterVarsity Press Readers’ Choice Awards! 🏆Your stories and messages about how this book has touched your lives have been such a gift. Now, I’d be honoured to have your vote. Plus, voters can potentially win the entire collection of winning books! Voting closes tomorrow.

P.P.S. I am really enjoying the new album by half•alive, especially the last track Thank You. The chorus is just so, so good:

Every shadow of change

What do we do with the challenging passages in Scripture that depict God in an unflattering light? Think about the flood and the destruction of the ancient world in Genesis, the eradication of the Canaanites in Joshua, or the horrific murder of the Levite’s concubine in Judges. How do we reconcile the difficult emotions of God, such as jealousy, regret, wrath, and, yes, even hatred?

In this episode, we sit down with David T. Lamb, the author of several books, including God Behaving Badly and The Emotions of God. Just as C.S. Lewis illuminated the thoughts and workings of demons in The Screwtape Letters, Dave seeks to guide us through the most troubling passages in Scripture—those moments that evoke pause, hesitation, and even offence.

What Dave helps us see in our conversation is that, despite the complexity of some passages, understanding the emotions of God can help us draw near to his heart, even when his actions defy our comprehension. Dave invites us to embrace humility, patience, and compassion toward ourselves and one another as we sit before the full portrait of God revealed in the Scriptures.

We know this conversation will be helpful to you and encourage you to learn more about Dave at www.davidtlamb.com

“What if we disrupted the world with something that wasn’t destructive? What if joy could radically change everything?”

I had never thought of joy as disruptive before, but in our conversation with Casey Margarite Field, I began to see joy under a different light. I think if you listen, your ideas about joy might be disrupted too.

Let me tell you a bit about Casey. She’s a writer, dancer, and an impact leader who passionately believes in the transformative power of imagination and joy. She is the author of a delightful children’s book called Disruptive Joy—and the story behind why she wrote it will surprise and delight you!

Talking with Casey was a lot of fun, and a timely reminder for me to embrace a childlike sense of wonder and playfulness in life. Because even disruptions can open our hearts and invite us into the possibility of joy.

I hope you enjoy our conversation with Casey as much as Alastair and I did!

P.S. The past few conversations on our podcast have focused on joy to pique your interest. If you haven’t already, I want to remind you to pre-order a copy of Alastair’s new book, Longing for Joy: An Invitation into the Goodness and Beauty of Life. I love this book so much, and not just because I love the author! I can’t wait for you all to read it when it releases on October 29th.

We are so happy to share our recent conversation with our friend Mike Mason, an author whose career spans over four decades, including cherished works like The Mystery of Marriage and The Blue Umbrella. We gleaned so much from his gentle wisdom and it was a delight to speak with him.

Mike told us a story about a young prophet once calling him an “ordinary man” (though we would disagree!). Initially taken aback, he has since come to embrace this label. In his latest book, Same Old, Same New: The Consolation of the Ordinary, he explores why so much of life consists of the mundane and how, paradoxically, it is in this ordinariness that we find joy and meaning.

Our conversation left me wishing it could have lasted longer. We feel a kinship with Mike and his monk-like approach to living an ordinary life. He was the perfect guest for Ordinary Matters, and we hope you enjoy this episode as much as we did!

In this episode, we had the pleasure of speaking with Whitney K. Pipkin, author of We Shall All Be Changed: How Facing Death with Loved Ones Transforms Us. In her book, Whitney shares her personal journey through the grief of losing her mother and how that experience reshaped her life and faith. During our conversation, we explored the discomfort that often surrounds grief, especially when others try to inject joy into our sorrow with well-meaning but misplaced words. Whitney beautifully articulated how she discovered a more nuanced form of joy—one that isn’t about forced happiness, but about finding comfort and Christ’s presence even in the midst of profound sorrow.

This was a such meaningful conversation, though not an easy one. We hope it strengthen how you think about death, grief, and joy; and that it encourages you to hold on to the only hope that endures: Christ’s victory over death. I want to encourage you to follow Whitney on Instagram, her Substack Tell It True, and learn more about her work at whitneykpipkin.com.

We had a wonderful conversation with Julie Lane Gay, author of The Riches of Your Grace: Living in the Book of Common Prayer, on our latest episode of Ordinary Matters.

Our conversation explored why prayer can often feel difficult—whether due to life's distractions, the fear of saying the wrong thing, or uncertainty about whether our prayers are heard. Julie offered wisdom on how the BCP can serve as a guide, not only in church but in our daily routines, helping us connect with God in meaningful ways. Whether you’re familiar with the BCP or completely new to it, this episode provides a fresh perspective on how structured prayer can enhance our ordinary lives, allowing us to experience God’s love in a profound way.

We offer you this episode in the hope that it might encourage you in the challenges of prayer and help you rest in the goodness of God.

As mentioned, my new book, Longing for Joy: An Invitation into the Goodness and Beauty of Life releases on October 29th. In our world, where algorithms shape what we see, I need your help: Please pre-order a copy today. You can also learn about other ways to help at thejoyrefuge.com